It's Becoming Very Clear That Birds Are Not Normal

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A new discovery raises an important question: from an evolutionary perspective, who really has the stranger wings?
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[@dracodracarys2339]

the next time you think speculative evolution is weird, remember that hummingbirds are _a theropod dinosaur filling the ecological niche of a bee._

[@alvaronavarro4895]

Yeah, like, it's absolutely bonkers!!

[@snimon5824]

I absolutely adore this revelation

[@JubioHDX]

genuinely a insane thought when you put it like that😂

[@zibbitybibbitybop]

Nature: I have invented a niche that only the most nimble flying bugs can fill Birds: Hold my nectar

[@egillskallagrimson5879]

Dinosaurs have always been edgy xD

[@fredbarron8582]

I'm nearly 40 years old, I cannot remember a time in my life where I have not been learning about dinosaurs and prehistory in general and still to this day I come across new things that I would never even have imagined. Every time I find something like this I feel like I am 5 years old and the world is brand new again.

[@thhseeking]

I've recently turned 60 and I feel the same way. And also in astronomy.

[@28Pluto]

That's because the paleontologists are always discovering and learning new things that they have never imagined! We get to experience it secondhand, but imagine how they feel making these discoveries.

[@TherapyGel]

That's really what I love about paleontology. Every decade there seems to be several revelations that put everything we thought we knew into question through a new lens. It's as exciting a scientific discipline as it is turbulent.

[@angelasteedman7594]

6:26 6:30 6:46 6:47

[@EthanRom]

I know the feeling except I’m not 40 haha. It feels like when I got my first encyclopedia as a kid. Just absorbing so much knowledge. Knowing more and at the same time having more questions than before

[@913egok]

Loved the video. I knew pterosaurs were featherless flyers and so are bats but didn't realize that membraned wings are such a common design that had developed independently so many times. I also didn't fully appreciate how unique feathered wings are. Long live the birds.

[@rojodiver3344]

I've often wondered if feathers first came about to assist with cold bloodedness. Or as the video just said, presentation to mates.

[@josephiajanke9850]

Pterosaurs had Feathers

[@913egok]

@@josephiajanke9850 wasn't aware of that. Recent find?

[@GenericDan]

@@josephiajanke9850 They had pycnofibres, not feathers.

[@Broockle]

@@GenericDan hmm calling Pterosaurs "featherless" doesn't seem right now tho, considering pycnofibres were likely proto-feathers.

[@KoneSkirata]

I was confused as to why this group went extinct, when bats became very successful. But the timeline cleared it up: This dinosaur group didn't disappear in the KPG-mass extinction, but long before that, right? Not because of a disaster, but because their niche was overtaken by more successful feathered dinosaurs.

[@EmilySmirleGURPS]

Yeah, as far as I can tell, the timeline is that the feathered-wing dinosaurs were faster to the "less awful"-wing niche and therefore dominated the "falling with style" space - this all predates the "flying" period possibly. The bony wrist spike seems alarmingly fragile, and a finger gives you more control over the flight/slow-fall surface.

[@dmf426]

In addition, bats are successful because they don't try to compete with birds. Birds are mostly diurnal, while bats are mostly nocturnal or crepuscular. Bats that are diurnal are typically island species that don't have to compete with birds.

[@Mantiax]

Yeah, something like the southamerican masupials predators

[@ekosubandie2094]

Well, not to mention they also had to compete with smaller pterosaurs who are probably did their membraned wings flight better than them million years earlier

[@martijn9568]

​@@ekosubandie2094 To broaden that picture. Small pterosaurs also died out earlier than their large relatives, probably because of competition with birds.

[@magnificentname]

7:45 "and if birds were to go extinct the skies of planet earth would be feather free and might remain that way forever" that enlightened me, just imagine how many prehistoric creatures had specialized features that were unique to them and never ever again these characteristics would return in any form Just imagine how many unique creatures could have evolved with how many special features that could have been there

[@Ealsante]

We don't even need to imagine! Just look at the trilobites. Hugely successful body plan, enormous diversity, then gone. Don't see anything with three lobes like that anymore.

[@televikkuntdaowuxing]

But the case of the trilobites is because conditions changed, if only slightly, and also their niches have been filled with other completely different genres many times

[@JustinShaedo]

Yes! Most evolutionary milestones don't produce fossil records, they're physiological (eg something to do with the chemistry of the organisms)... So there's no way to know what they were; what was lost.

[@secularmonk5176]

Hotdogs for fingers, for instance ...

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@JustinShaedo that reminds me of an xkcd comic when a future conscience comes looking for spiders and didn't know about webs because they don't fossilize. The present characters imediately ask for the time machine to go check on dinosaurs =D

[@pluspiping]

This video definitely shifted my perspective, noticing how common membrane wings are, and a new awe and respect how incredibly complex flight feathers are. Never going to look at them the same again.

[@MasterArchfiend]

“Birds are weird” is probably the understatement of history of humanity. Still love them.

[@romella_karmey]

We are the weirdest.. We are the only mammal who can talk and build and destroy for our own selfish advantage

[@dtibor5903]

Yes, they taste delicious

[@ThishandlefeatureISdumb]

*history of LIFE on Earth. Birds got their weird feather wings before we homo sapiens even existed.

[@Mr.Autodelete]

@@romella_karmey lol like other primates or animals don’t fight for social hierarchy very unscientific

[@I_suck-_-so_what]

​@@romella_karmeywut? Do you know anything about the natural world? Just because you can't hear or understand them "talk" it doesn't mean they don't communicate with their own "language". I agree with homie above me, that was a very unscientific statement. Lol

[@2MuchPurple]

Even without references to dragons or dinosaurs, birds are magical creatures. As an artist who began drawing and painting terrestrial animals at an early age, I am now only interested in birds. They are endlessly fascinating.

[@DogFoxHybrid]

And some of them make wonderful pets.

[@neomt2]

Birds aren't a reference to dinosaurs, they are living dinosaurs 😊

[@unm0vedm0ver]

@@PBFoote-mo2zr birds are theropod dinosaurs like Humans and Australopithecus are hominids

[@seanmckelvey6618]

@@PBFoote-mo2zr No, it makes us living apes. Dinosaurs are a group of related animals, all belonging to different families. Calling humans living Australopithecines would be like calling birds living Tyrannosaurids.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

@@PBFoote-mo2zr you know they don’t mean literally magical right?

[@infrequentflyer4271]

Did the earliest birds catch the earliest worms?

[@anonymouscausethatshowirol828]

Unfortunately not, as the earliest worm was really, really early, and may or may not be the ancestor of the platonic early bird

[@MasonPapenbrock-my4gl]

Well played

[@btn237]

Horrifyingly, it was the other way around .

[@richiesworld1]

Bravo 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Bravo 👌🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@GolAcheron-fc4ug]

Nah because all chordates alive now, including birds, evolved from primordial sea worms. So worms existed long before birds did.

[@JoeBob79569]

It's interesting how birds essentially gave up an extra set of "hands" just for better flight. It kind of suggests that they depended on their beaks more and more over time, while depending on their hands/claws less and less. Like two parts of the body evolving together, in tandem, in different directions. Obviously flying had some major advantages for them.

[@kryts27]

Flight is not neccessary. Think of ratites (flightless birds). Yes, I like birds enormously and admire their intelligence, activity in their habitats, speed and birdsong. Even in the desert you will find many birds. They are adaptive, hardy vertebrate Sauropsids.

[@matt_w]

I can't think of any quadruped species that has extra limbs and all flying quadrupeds use their forelimbs for flight, maybe because shoulder joints are hard to reproduce elsewhere?

[@JoeBob79569]

@@kryts27 Yea, but their ancestors would have been able to fly. Flightless birds just became flightless because they found a niche for themselves where flight wasn't necessary. Kind of like how dolphin and whale ancestors moved back into the water because they found a niche for themselves where legs weren't necessary. And it looks like hippos are on the same path, but at a much earlier stage. This is one of the coolest things about evolution to me, where animals find a new way to live that doesn't require their previous adaptions. You could probably say the same about humans and fur/hair.

[@JohnDoe-et8th]

Many bigger parrots use one foot as a hand (especially to get food in their mouths, but also for tool use.) Wings AND feet AND hand capability. They so outperform mammals (no dangerous live births, no easily-damaged teeth, no external genitalia . . .)

[@ProfessorToadstool]

yeah flying...

[@nileshkumaraswamy2711]

It's a testament to how incredibly unique feathered birds are that they're still around and still so successful!

[@Mrturtlestomps]

Couldn’t that be said about every species that has survived til today?

[@Mr.Autodelete]

@@Mrturtlestomps yes but that’s why we are all here lol

[@Mrturtlestomps]

@@Mr.Autodelete exactly my point lol

[@philliusphoggwick8299]

Not really, as it's not their uniqueness thats the cause of them still being about. Also as others said that can be said of any organism not extinct.

[@MadsterV]

Will they turn into crabs though

[@Summer-of8zk]

visiting lapland it amazed me how abundant birds were there when it was so cold, incredible how such a small unprotected body seemed so comfortable in the freezing cold, incredible creatures

[@horseheadkid]

they amaze me too ☻

[@Pammellam]

Yes that is amazing. My son, who lives in northern Hokkaido where it gets down to -10°C in the winter with deep deep snow covering the land all winter too, deer live seemingly with ease. He says as long as they eat they can live. But if they can not eat every day, they are in trouble.

[@hatfieldrick]

Once you have the genes for feathers (which as you say are very complex and hard to evolve) it makes a lot more sense to use them for wings than a flap of skin, for one simple reason: a feathered wing can take a lot of damage and only lose feathers, which can regrow -- but a membrane wing is a lot harder to repair, and may easily be permanently ruined.

[@bramvanduijn8086]

It is always tough to avoid this trap when talking about evolution: You can't argue that feathers exist because they add value, you first have to argue that all intermediate steps add value too. There is no engineer making a plan for evolution, it is accidents all the way down. To argue that the intermediate steps all add value is a lot easier for a membrane wing than for feathered wings. The series of changes needed to go from simple feathers to feathered wings is long and many of the steps are unlikely. It would not surprise me if feathered wings only evolved after many niches were left empty for a long time, like after a mass extinction event or on an island, where even a small extinction event can empty out entire niches.

[@kragary]

@@bramvanduijn8086 They don't always need to add value, some features are just neutral or a tiny bit harmful but not so harmful they'd prevent the production or survival of offspring. Some features are harmful for the individual but not to the species, or rather, the genes. That's one trap too when thinking about evolution, people assuming that every single feature has a purpose or is useful.

[@JohnDoe-et8th]

Yes, but those replaceable feathers take a ton of work to maintain. Half a bird's life is spent preening.

[@anest-uk]

This seems like a really important point, I came to the comments to see if it was made. Really feathers are so much more rugged, so accidents are more survivable - which is the name of the game. Plus... they are pretty!

[@frankibianchi6188]

​@@anest-ukit is not name of game

[@Ratty524]

These guys seem like the closest thing to having real dragons that existed in the past. I love them.

[@peterprime2140]

Wouldn't Pterosaurs fit that role better?

[@necroseus]

​​@@peterprime2140 Size wise, sure. But this family of crestures had the hallmarks of a fantasy dragon. Segmented membranous wings, toothed mouths, longer tails, "reptilian" feet. Etc. They are even almost analogous to a dragon of folklore, the cockatrice! Had they approached the size of pterosaurs, they would have possibly looked like genuine wyverns

[@TR4R]

Kueneosaurus, a reptile from Triasic period, is kinda like that too.

[@Ratty524]

@@necroseus You nailed what I was going to say.

[@porakiyadraekojin3390]

I was just about to reply that we were thiiiis close to having mini wyvern flying around XD

[@itsmebatman]

I never thought about it like that, but objectively speaking birds are truly a crazy design. Their whole anatomy is wild. Of course, if they want to fly they have to have a body that is tailored for that. And man, their bodies are really, really tailored to flying, except for those few of them that can't fly, which is bizarre in its own right.

[@Lyarrah]

Honestly though, you could argue a lot of insect species - especially those with scaled wings like butterflies, or the tiny "broom" ones on those microscopic flies - have things that DO resemble feathers, to scale.

[@f_r_e_d]

i had my first birb when a parakeet flew through my window and squatted. i named him julio, got him a girl and listened to him chirp for so many years. one day his sweetheart took a one way flight in her dreams and julio was devastated. he barely sang for about a week until he joined her in this dream

[@Xind-te4rq]

🥺 parakeets are the sweetest

[@ProfessorToadstool]

and they will up and die if disturbed too much

[@emmetthowell899]

Rip Julio and Julio’s girl

[@simarkarmani4034]

@LightMoon RIP You will be missed

[@LifeisaHorrorMovie]

😢😢😢

[@SkynetSeesYou]

So, dragons... dragons were real.

[@redemptionrose4152]

Of course they changed their name to dinosaurs

[@TEETH666]

Wyverns*

[@gojihead3195]

If you considered so then YES

[@gojihead3195]

​@@TEETH666 oh come on don't start now

[@skersey992]

​@redemptionrose4152 you know the word "dragon" means a huge serpent, right?

[@DanePavitt]

I don't think it's fair to call Scansoriopterygids a "failed experiment". They were still able to evolve & survive with that body plan for the time that they were around. Sure they weren't a super long-lived lineage in the grand scheme of things, but they must have been doing something right otherwise they wouldn't have evolved at all

[@hadorstapa]

Indeed. We're not a super long-lived lineage yet either, in the grand scheme of things.

[@extragoogleaccount6061]

Well, thats fair, but by that definition nothing would ever be a "failed experiment"

[@js66613]

@@extragoogleaccount6061 I mean, no animal species as a whole probably is a failed experiment. There are a lot of questionable ones, but I don't think there's a failed one. Unless you count humans, but that's not so much a failed experiment as one that backfired on momma nature.

[@the_SolLoser]

Did it dead end, or are there members of their line alive today? If it dead ended, then it's failed. If it went on to produce a lineage that is still around, then it evolved and succeeded.

[@hadorstapa]

@@the_SolLoser while I agree with you in principle, I think your criteria for success might need some rethinking. Arguably we're a very recent offshoot of our genetic tree, and we've not yet been around as long as Scansoriopterygids were. They managed 9 million years according to the fossil records. Homo Sapiens has managed 315,000 years so far. I know it depends where you want to count the break. The Hominidae (great apes family, the cladistic level of Scansoriopterygids) have been around 17my, the Homoninae (African great apes subfamily) 12.5my, and the Homonini (tribe) just 7my. Our genus, Homo, have only been around for 2.8 million years.

[@Mother_of_Pigeons]

I live with 6 adopted pigeons. I’m happy to confirm that birds are not normal! ❤

[@angeliquesoon9527]

Pigeons are the most difficult bird to understand. So emotional!

[@Mother_of_Pigeons]

@@angeliquesoon9527 They really are emotional little creatures! I love them to bits for it!

[@42ZaphodB42]

Tell me about it.

[@jasonfuentz4282]

@@Mother_of_Pigeons GROSS

[@JamesDickson-vs5of]

I have kept pigeons for 55 years, happy healthy peace ✌️

[@critiqueofthegothgf]

"if birds were to go extinct the skies would be empty for millions of years, if not forever". it's genuinely terrifying to think about. flight is so rare and evolutionarily taxing, it might never emerge again

[@jakubgrono9070]

Meanwhile bats: did you forget about me?

[@luckyblockyoshi]

*feather-free*, not empty

[@critiqueofthegothgf]

@@luckyblockyoshi relatively empty considering the vast majority of flying animals we see in our daily life are birds. how often do you see bats and flying squirrels on a daily basis?

[@luckyblockyoshi]

@@critiqueofthegothgf it’s the quote from the video

[@shattermelon496]

​@@critiqueofthegothgfI think the vast majority of flying things I see are insects

[@BuruIgeru]

This is the earliest I've been to an Eons video and it just so happened to be the one that talks about a dinosaur that's the closest body type to a fantasy dragon. What wonders this channel continues to show us.

[@oldbatwit5102]

Except it is the other way round. It's not dinosaurs resembling dragons, but dragons resembling dinosaurs.

[@veggieboyultimate]

Such a shame these guys didn’t last long, who knows what they would have looked like if they lived longer.

[@MrRenanHappy]

There is an alternative reality where they survived to this era, some to giant size and became real life dragons.

[@Styphon]

Dragons

[@ollllj]

With slightly higher atmospheric pressure (andOr a higher O2 percentage) you easily get giant insects and bigger winged-animals. (earth has had giant insects prior to dinosaurs, but dinosaurs+mammals lowered O2% gradually, burning more O2 to keep a more steady body temperature) So far, all earthlike planets we found are significantly larger than earth, generally implying a higher surface gravity (irrelevant for insect size) and thicker atmosphere , and likely much stronger winds. Expect sentient space-dragons.

[@ilyaslebleu]

@@ollllj Insects becoming bigger because of more O2 is disputed - they reached this larger size because of lack of competition from terrestrial/flying vertebrates in the early Carboniferous, at a time where O2 levels weren't particularily high. O2 levels increased later during the Carboniferous, but by then, giant insects were already well-established. Also, a higher surface gravity is definitely an issue for flying creatures, as they need more wing power to fight against gravity. So, while a thicker atmosphere would definitely help, we shouldn't necessarily expect space dragons.

[@SofaKingShit]

There are those people like Icke who say that they did indeed last for a far longer period of time, enough time to evolve into suit wearing politicians but of course that is completely implausible and unfeasible (evil and mocking laughter ensues).

[@CharlesSothers]

Great hook, and loved the explanation. About that joke: It could be referring to Dean Martin, one of the OG crooners. He was called Dino (Dean-o), so... Dino Soars 🤷‍♂🤣

[@LuigiGodzillaGirl]

So happy to see you discuss Yi Chi. I remember the first time I saw one on another Paleo channel years ago, thinking to myself “This has got to be the closest evolution has ever gotten to real dragons as described in fantasy writings!”

[@LimeyLassen]

Wyverns, technically 😁

[@AzaraCiel]

@@LimeyLassen That distinction is not one that was made historically. It is a modern fantasy distinction, with the exception, as far as I can tell, being in heraldry, where the exact image needed to have a verbal description to recreate it. It didn’t really matter to regular speakers. The different words also usually weren’t all being used in the same place at the same time, so we now have the option in modern times to throw all those words together since we have them all *now*, and pretty much every word for different dragons just means snake at its heart anyway.

[@buragi5441]

@@LimeyLassen Wyvenrs are dragons the same way owls are birds.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

@@LimeyLassen there is no “technically” it’s a fantasy creature, a dragon can be basically anything, that same term has been ascribed to countless radically different mythological creatures across countless different cultures

[@ohasis8331]

Think about man in the days of youre, riding peacefully along after a decent rain downpour, comes around a corner and sees a fossil dinosaur sticking out of the eroded hillside. What other conclusion could he reach but monsters or dragons.

[@TimvanderLeeuw]

In this context, it's interesting to consider that many species of birds also have membranes -- for swimming. So they evolved both types of features.

[@yalostmethere]

To be fair, those membranes are on an entirely different set of limbs tho.

[@kylezo]

@@yalostmethere to be fair, he didn't say "arm membranes" so it doesn't require any clarification at all tho.

[@liisahmanni]

​@@yalostmethere"Must correct comment that doesn't need correcting. Must look smart. Can't fight urge."

[@johnmarkson1990]

@@liisahmanni To be fair in the context of the context of the original video we were discussing arm membranes so pointing out non flying membrane doesnt discredit the video and makes yalos's comment make more sense as to where he was coming from in his attempt to correct.

[@georget4141]

⁠@@johnmarkson1990to be fair the presupposition of webbing being distinct in the front limbs as compared to the hind limbs implies an evolutionary distinction in the form and purpose of such an adaptation which would allow for functions which are more ecologically inevitable as compared to one which would require the complete rearrangement of the body plan in a way which would hinder the animal in certain way as opposed to webbing in the back feet which would be a natural extrapolation of the function of the stuff or something

[@magetsalive5162]

Look Around You really summed it up quite succintly for all time. "What are birds? We just don't know. *ding* "

[@shadowscribe]

Very interesting insight. Membranes are literally a part of the living tissue, while feathers are analogous to hair and scales. Their jobs are appearance, passive armor, and general protection from elements. The quills and feathers are the only time they've been specially built to do extra work for an animal (and quills still count as armor, just with consequences).

[@Mrturtlestomps]

Yeah man we watched the video

[@Ezullof]

Feathers are homologous and largely analogous to hair and scales, but feathered wings are analogous to flying membranes. Btw feathers themselves don't do extra work. The part that does the work are still the upper members. Feathers are just analogous to the passive skin membrane. Powered flight is achieved not through the feathers, but through the active movements from those members.

[@ms.erania9848]

One of the inconvenient of membrane wings is that the membrane needs to be irrigated by blood, thus causing a lost in body heat.

[@sava-smth]

And tearing without chance of growing back

[@gsilverfish]

Unless you live in a hot place and use the same process to cool your blood on purpose.

[@ms.erania9848]

@@gsilverfish Obviously. There are also bats in Northern Finland and their tactics in winter is to hibernate.

[@EdJUber]

A light layer of feathers would considerably mitigate the heat loss.

[@hydrocharis1]

And feathers themselves are so nice and warm that might be their original function, right?

[@JonathanUsmar]

Can you please do an episode on hips and shoulders? I know vaguely that lizards can't stand because of their hips/shoulders. And that mammals and dinosaurs have very different hips/shoulders, to facilitate standing (and running with lower energy cost). But I don't really understand what the changes were? Do mammal hips achieve this very differently from dinosaurs or are they similar? What about the two types of dinosaurs? And how much did dinosaur shoulders change to become birds??

[@DracarmenWinterspring]

I'm kinda surprised there was no mention of insects in all this. There's a big group of insects that includes ants and bees whose name (hymenoptera) literally means "membrane wings". Though having exoskeletons, I guess the membrane there is pretty different from skin.

[@RamblinGrampy-pw2yn]

Insects use chitin, a glucose monomer for their wings (it's similar to cellulose); skin structures like nails and feathers are keratin, a fibrous protein.

[@8arrows]

We also have flying snakes and flying fish.

[@luudest]

Would have been interesting to dig deeper with feathers: What makes feathers special? What drove the development of the many different feather types? Which changes happened on the genetic level?

[@kramermariav]

Didn't a recent study find that the genes for scales and feathers are quite similar?

[@teaartist6455]

Feathers kind of started as insulation and got more complex (for better insulation) later. This also then lead to them being able to be repurposed for things like airfoil (wings) and (hypothetically) display crests and rudders that make changing direction while running easier.

[@pellekuipers6856]

Video idea: The birds that lived during the Mesozoic and survived into our era. I was really surprised to find out that our flying friends lived aside the dinosaurs for so long and with such numbers. How did they live and look back then? And what bird groups already split up their ancestry before arriving into our era?

[@AndrewTBP]

They already did that video.

[@Dongobog-ps9tz]

Birds are dinosaurs

[@ollllj]

the genetic difference between embryonic development of scales, and embryonic development of feathers (instead of scales) is surprisingly small, and often just 1-3 hormones/chemicals during embryonic development onto scaled-reptile-stem-cells, that tell the skin where to grow scales/feathers of what side..

[@Dragrath1]

Yeah that is because feathers as well as the synapsid counterpart hair/fur are really both modified scales surprisingly enough teeth are too just that adaptation occurred way further back when vertebrates were all still living as fish

[@benjaminw9704]

that is fascinating! do you have a link for more info? im very curious now

[@andrewfleenor7459]

That kind of makes sense for basic feathers, but flight feathers, with their interlocking structures, are a whole different game. I bet that had to be almost completely in place before they could even start flying.

[@ollllj]

@@benjaminw9704 8th grade Bilogy class in west germany in the 90s

[@bramvanduijn8086]

@@andrewfleenor7459 Yep, and I wish I knew the intermediate steps they went through, because I want to know how those intermediate steps were useful.

[@DraptorRonin]

Meanwhile, in an alternate timeline, instead of birds we have wyverns.

[@Bundpataka]

Just call them dragons bruh

[@coinisinorbit]

​@@Bundpatakathey're actually two different things, one has 4 legs and 2 wings, the other 2 legs as 2 wings that double as legs

[@meren6856]

​@@coinisinorbitaccording to what ?

[@Bundpataka]

@@coinisinorbit Nobody cares about what a handful of dudes from medieval England thought, or what DnD calls things. They’re literally not real bro 💀 like half the different mythological creatures from diff cultures that ppl call “dragons” break that rule anyways

[@Giruga905]

​@meren6856 ik this is from three months ago and myb you already looked up your own answer but just a general answer would be according to folklore, in a majority of cultures around the world a dragon was the four legged beast while the wyvern was a term mostly in france and england from the 17th century i think to distingush between the dragon and it's two-legged counterpart. Today it is used in fantasy speech to describe a smaller more animalistic dragon counterpart, so, still technically a dragon but more smol and usually has two hind legs

[@lilyvilla8646]

When interviewing to narrate for Eons, do you require people to produce as many dad jokes and bad puns as possible? Ya’ll are great and I love you.

[@AndrewTBP]

The jokes are a Patreon perk. The presenters don’t write them.

[@goosenotmaverick1156]

I read a book or series of books when I was maybe 10th grade, a fictional novel, about the first bat like creatures to take flight. The story is told from the perspective of the first "bat" I'll call it for ease, to fly. The rest of his species, were arboreal, climbing and gliding creatures very similar to these. What a cool thing to come across!

[@TigirlakaLaserwolf6]

Dusk Wing!!! Heck yeah It's actually a _very_ distant prequel to Silverwing. Absolutely one of my favourite childhood books

[@Matt-xc6sp]

@@TigirlakaLaserwolf6 I haven’t heard about that particular novel but I knew from the description it was from that series. Not a lot of bat based young adult novels with deep lore.

[@Your-Least-Favorite-Stranger]

@@Matt-xc6sp I'm going to be that guy. Batman.

[@leeleaman8057]

As someone who has kept birds I can assure you there is always more weird to discover. Thanks for the awesome ep Eons :)

[@germanomagnone]

honestly when I see the YI QI, it looks a lot like a mini-wyvern or a Cockatrice (a sort of mixture between a chicken, a wyvern with Medusa's eyes) and I like it so much, together with the Dracorex hogwartsia, they are almost the only ones "true dragons" that earth has ever seen.

[@Magmafrost13]

I'd never thought before about how interesting it is that Yi Qi is just called "strange wing" in a language that a huge number of people currently speak. It'd be like if english-speaking people went around calling stegosaurus "roof lizard" unironically.

[@Bundpataka]

I mean there are animals literally called “anteater” and “pronghorn”

[@Dell-ol6hb]

There’s plenty of names like that in English

[@Bundpataka]

@@Dell-ol6hb Grasshopper, firefly, mudskipper, Howlers, cottontail, etc

[@Ezullof]

Dinosaurs have latin/greek names because people who named them actually knew these languages (and some still do).

[@DarkwarriorJ]

@@Dell-ol6hb My impression is that most languages name things like this; and if we return to the area closer to Britain, we find such uninspiring names as the 'North Sea'. English is a bit weird out for cargo-culting names from other cultures and seeing them as more normal and reverable in a way :D

[@marinomele4575]

Unrelated, but the fact that Microraptor Gui was proven capable of powered-flight is criminally underrated. We always imagined as a glider but it was likley a non-avian flying dinosaur. How cool is that? [Referring to Rui Pei & co. paper from 2020]

[@sproutpits]

Feathered wings only seem abnormal if you haven't seen where aerospace engineering has gone. An infinitely-variable wing surface is better than a contiguous one for a number of reasons.

[@bkjeong4302]

Except membrane-based wings are also variable, to an even greater extent. The entire flight surface can alter configuration selectively, rather than being made out of lots of smaller solid flight surfaces.

[@terramater]

Birds are so fascinating, and we def cannot image a sky without birds; this would be so sad. Our crew got the only bird left that looks like a modern-day dinosaur on camera. They cannot fly but have extremely powerful legs that help them jump up to 1m off the ground and run at speeds of 50 km/h and vicious claws, which are great weapons for disembowelling any enemies. It's incredible to see a species like this living among us nowadays.

[@themadpolymath3430]

What bird is that? A cassowary?

[@seanhewitt603]

The passenger pigeon used to flock in the hundreds of Millions, but, well...Pilgrims have a habit of indulging their genocidal hunger...

[@chrisalice2475]

Feathered flight arguably evolved one other time in the common ancestor of Alucitoid and Pterophoroid moths! They're super weird and super cool.

[@hungariangiraffe6361]

Wow, I never heard of them before so I looked them up, they are really cool!

[@joeg5414]

i just found the craziest moth looking those up- Creatonotos gangis. Weird. Kinda looks like that tentacle thing could evolve to be a feather

[@monnoo8221]

recently it has been shown that only a few mutations are necessary to go on from scales to feathers. And there is no reason not to try a mixed model as well

[@MrJethroha]

It is crazy that even now, modern technology can't replicate the flight characteristics of feathered wings. They can kind of get bat winged or insect winged machines to fly, but feathered wings are way more complex.

[@Dr.IanPlect]

What a myopic comment; compare how long each path has had...

[@JubioHDX]

@@Dr.IanPlect what? we've had the same amount of time with modern technology to attempt all of these things, the length of the path in this statement is on when we got modern technology not when each method of flight developed in nature

[@Dr.IanPlect]

@@JubioHDX Eh, no. It's millions of years v a few hundred. The comparison is; yet to catch up to feathers which have had much longer to get to how they perform compared to human tech.

[@mickeyg7219]

Not with metals and plastics. In theory you can build a flying machine that replicate birds with biotechnology, but like most things, there are tradeoffs - they don't work as effectively when you scaled up or when you're creating something for a different application. The goal of technological advancement should be beating nature at a specific task, it would be quite pointless to just directly copy it, because we obviously aren't trying to live like a bird.

[@melodiefrances3898]

​@@Dr.IanPlect totally missing the point of the post so that you can trash someone. Who is really myopic here?

[@SamWal]

Maybe feathers weren't better for flying, but for heat retention which gave them advent age time to refine flying properties of feathers

[@KSL042]

May not be a lot but thanks once again for all you guys do on and off the Eons show !!!! Your work has effected my life more than you’ll know ❤️❤️❤️❤️🦖🦕🦖🦕🦖

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

No single drop raises the tide, they all contribute :)

[@KSL042]

I really like that thank you !!!!!!

[@jimmydean123123]

You should really be thanking me. Not pbs

[@largent45]

Feathered wings are strange but so complex, that if the all disappeared today, it would take a very long time if ever, certainly not in our lifetimes, to reappear. Feathered flight is so complex, it's amazing that it evolved at all.

[@huldu]

Indeed. I just don't see animals flourishing with humans around those days are long gone. If we were to go extinct which is very plausible on the larger timescale then life would pick up the slack once again. Our sun isn't going to end life anytime soon so there is *plenty* of time for even more crazy creatures to walk on earth, beyond our wildest imagination.

[@Jaime-eg4eb]

Compared to what? It's all amazing

[@svallee]

@@Jaime-eg4ebcompared to everything. The video touches this very topic: most traits in the animal kingdom evolved into different branches, but feathered wings only ever appeared into one branch. They are probably the most complex and unlikely evolutionary trait to ever show up in Earth's evolution history, next of course to human's brains.

[@VS-kf5qw]

That video was awesome on its own, but also I feel like y'all deserve some bonus points for coming up with a video title that sounds like a creepypasta.

[@VorsaLjanta]

That ad read was completely out of left field for a channel about science

[@willemvandebeek]

Agreed, very disappointing... :(

[@brambleheart]

I love birds! They’re so interesting and beautiful creatures.

[@anim8torfiddler871]

More Out-takes please. They are fun, and they illuminate the process of creating and assembling the presentation.

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

This is so awesome because it is nothing like research of the past which thought in hierarchies and conventions! This script reconsidered old paradigms (feathered wings=normal) and questioned if *our* perspective was aberrant rather than calling the discovery (webbed wings) aberrant. Much love to your team!

[@pittbullking87]

How interesting! Bat like dinosaurs with feathers! That is one of the things I find so fascinating about evolution, how completely different animals and plants evolve the same adaptations for the same lifestyle .However, when you look at the underlying structure, they are not made the same way. For example, in pterosaurs, a single finger became elongated to form the wing, whereas in bats the individual fingers form the wing.

[@madumlao]

"From my point of view, the feathered flyers are strange!" - Anyiqi Skywalker

[@RavinRay]

Yay, the Scansoriopterygidae! I was always hopeful they would be featured.

[@JayTorin]

Finally! They couldn't keep the truth about birds not being real hidden forever Edit: Oh

[@dr4d1s]

r/birdsarentreal

[@antonsimmons8519]

Yeah, they're not real though! 👍

[@zaxchannel2834]

I've known birds are weird since I befriended a bunch of ducks, they're so clumsy but graceful at the same time it's so absurd

[@kennyhagan5781]

Ok,it does make a lot of sense. I'm a cook, so I have seen my share of chickens, and there's a flap of skin on the wings right by the "armpit " that seems to be a bit long for something that just holds feathers. No matter, I'm sure those batwing birds were just as tasty as our current varieties. Great video, I learned some cool stuff here. 💯

[@BlackRaptor77]

When I look at feathers, I imagine what it would look like if reptiles had wings but decided membranes were lame and grew super long scales instead

[@goblinofsharksnacks]

4.30 There is also non powered flight using up winds (as some birds use today to preserve energy) where prehistoric birds took off from a height

[@JNDReacts]

I learned a few years ago that birds are living dinosaurs and I’m still in shock about it. I’m also still in shock that ravens and crows can talk like parrots, and that bald eagles actually sound nothing like red-tailed hawks, but in fact sound like quiet, chirpy little things that should be half the size that they actually are.

[@Dr.IanPlect]

Yes, birds are dinosaurs and reptiles.

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

A big shock for me was that dolphins don't make the sounds we expect, a kookaburra sound effect was sped up! 😅

[@astick5249]

Bald eagles are still pretty loud, Its sort of like a variant of a seagull sound in the sense that it carries because its so high pitched

[@Im-Not-a-Dog]

"I am Darkness. I am The Night. I Am Bat-Bird!"

[@tootbender6935]

I have been watching that show for the first time lately, and damn it's great.

[@dalecaswell4217]

Beautiful logic & narrative. Been hoping for years someone would say this right. Feathered wings are incredible.

[@MikeS29]

I love all of these PBS Eons videos, but I was shocked to see Calli hawking massagers at the end!

[@savorymarshmallows]

I wonder if there's an intermediate with both membranes and feathers waiting to be found. Feathered wing development doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a process, but if it went non-flying membrane covered in feathers -> membrane reduces leaving arm bones with feathers attached -> feathers adapt for gliding -> feathers adapt for flying, that might be a more practical narrative.

[@martijn9568]

Keep in mind that feathers were probably first grown for insulation and display purposes. Feathers meant for display could potentially be similar enough to the feathers meant for flight, which would allow an animal to take flight before developing true flight feathers.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

You've basically described how wings grow in bird embryos. Birds do have stretchy membranes at several locations along their wings. Pick up a raw chicken wing and try stretching it out. You'll find the membranes right away. The membrane structure on birds' wings are almost exactly the same as that found on Scansoriopterygids, except birds lack the wrist bone extension and obviously the membranes are much smaller.

[@VorpalSw0rd]

The fact that the existed in the late Jurassic gives me hope they survived and evolved into Cretaceous dragons we just haven’t discovered yet

[@iamthetruemichael]

Maybe that's our purpose. To make Cretaceous Dragons and introduce them to the wild.

[@danielmcmindes5112]

membrane wings would seem to have advantages in an environment that is consistently the right temp to support metabolism in "reptile like" species. in highly varying climate the additional exposure to heat and cold could be a hinderance.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Meanwhile bats...

[@RealSlowLike]

​@@ExtremeMadnessX bats are mammals, making them endothermic. This allows them to self regulate body temp in a wide range of air temps. Reptiles and amphibians rely on warm air temps and the sun to keep them warm.

[@sava-smth]

Huh? Dinosaurs and pterosaurs were warm-blooded, what are you referring to?

[@martijn9568]

​@@sava-smth You still need to spend energy to heat up.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

@@RealSlowLike Dinosaurs and pterosaurus weren't usual reptiles.

[@CionnFE]

Fascinating to invert the idea of bird feathers from ‘usual’ to ‘strange’ in evolutionary terms. As the narrative suggests, it’s a testament to how successful they became that we take them for granted as the norm for flight. And as a device, that they may be a total one off! Thanks EONS, for an excellent and accessible piece. 🌟

[@womanofsubstance8735]

Membrane wings are a liability because if/when they are badly damaged, they are more difficult or impossible to heal. Conversely, feathered wings can replace damaged or lost feathers so the animal can continue to fly.

[@skybluskyblueify]

I think another video on how the feathered wing is strange and the complexity of the feather would be a great follow-up to this video.

[@perasha]

You cannot possibly convince me that these aren't dragons. In all seriousness, very cool stuff! Even insects use membraned wings, feathers are weird as hell but damn are they effective

[@NosebleedPolitics]

or Quetzalcoatl

[@reuireuiop0]

Now imagining little beetles and butterflies with feathers. At least, some Beatles wore feathers for some of the time

[@kelzbelz313]

2:53 hey, how’d you get a picture of my sleep paralysis demon?

[@adnannaemaz1989]

After this we need a video on feather evolution in birds. How did it begin and why do we have so many different types and complexities.

[@Dedicatedfollower467]

Oh this episode is really great! I've been looking into some speculative evolution stuff, and it's actually really helpful to learn and see how much more prevalent membrane-powered flight is compared to flight built from integumentary structures across geologic time. Now I have to rewatch When Insects First Flew!

[@ejtattersall156]

I'm surprised they did not point out that feathers provide wings that are lighter than flesh and bone giving birds a distinct advantage over distance. Bats don't migrate like birds. Yes, bats migrate. Yes, bats migrate. Yes, bats migrate. Yes, bats migrate. Bats travel at night up to 200 kilometers. Birds travel as far as 25.000 kilometers. Bat migration and bird migration are not the same thing. Bat migration and bird migration are not the same thing. Bats don't migrate like birds. Butterfly flight is a completely different thing. Butterfly flight is a completely different thing. It does not negate that wings with feathers are lighter. Weight matters in flight. Wings with feathers are lighter. Weight matters in flight. "I'd speculate that the real advantage feathers give is the control of airflow over the wing" It's not a zero sum game. It's not a zero sum game. It's not a zero sum game. It does not negate that wings with feathers are lighter. It does not negate that wings with feathers are lighter. Yes, feathers have better aerodynamic qualities, AND AND AND AND AND "feathers provide wings that are lighter than flesh and bone giving birds a distinct advantage over distance" Do not argue with me just to argue. (Do not respond to this with a hostile, smarmy comment. Analyze what I said carefully and present a mature, reasoned case or don't say anything at all. Why do animal videos draw in so many angry comments?)

[@astick5249]

@@ejtattersall156 Theres plenty of migratory bats, if you have wings, migrating is perfect for you. Even insects the fraction of most other flyer's size do it

[@michaelwright2986]

@@ejtattersall156 I'd speculate that the real advantage feathers give is the control of airflow over the wing. Long long ago I saw a New Zealand woodpigeon (kereru) taking off steeply. Its feathers were obviously arranged for maximum lift, because you could hear the airflow: it reminded me of a heavily loaded jet taking off. But the membrane will work ok--monarch butterflies migrate, which is a weird thought.

[@ejtattersall156]

@@michaelwright2986 That AN advantage for sure, but it's not either or. Weight is a significant advantage in flight and flesh and bones are simply heavier than feathers. Flesh must also be provided with blood as well, so a bird is expending less energy to support that flesh. Also, butterfly aerodynamics are a significantly different issue since their weight is already very small.

[@ejtattersall156]

@@astick5249 What is it about the internet and the zero sum game? Why is it everything has to be googled and argued? Did you check the difference in distances between migratory birds and bats? It's about scale. "In the night some species of bats travel up to 200 kilometres" Bats travel at night up to 200 k. 200 k. Okay? Now birds. Birds travel as far as 25.000 kilometers. 200 vs. 25000. Do you see the difference? 200 vs. 25000. Birds can migrate to warmer climates, bats can't. Do you see the difference?

[@EarthWingedDragon]

Feathered wings changes shapes during each step of flight. It is a marvel and one of the most successful experiments, no doubt. It assists modern birds into filling so many niches, and they become one of the most diverse creatures to ever exist.

[@Mohojo]

Well we knew they weren’t normal because they charge on the power lines.

[@Rob_Enhoud]

Miniature flying dinosaurs? Who'd believe something so crazy!

[@Mohojo]

@@Rob_Enhoud It is pretty cool to think about the connection with the past they have.

[@kingofflames738]

WE HAD WYVERNS!

[@crazycatlady39]

Feathered Wings are kinda like a bunch of species experimenting with new technology the way humans do with computers, just that birds got the 'patent' for it.

[@CorderralLewis]

Bold of us to assume that we know more than we do. Great video as usual

[@TimelyAbyss]

Did sci-show just try to sell me snake oil anti-aging crap at the end?

[@AlxRo66]

Now I love birds and feathers even more.

[@Brasswatchman]

I wonder if membrane wings might've actually led to feathered wings. Perhaps it started with certain hairs on the wings evolving a certain way to help improve flight stability. Over time the hairs took up more and more of the burden, whereas the skin became less and less necessary.

[@cabbagenut]

Anybody else find that ad spot a little . . . weird?

[@willemvandebeek]

🙋

[@jchou17]

When you consider membranes in general and include aquatic membranes, it really puts into perspective the utility of that clade convergent evolution

[@tala_icaronycteris]

Thoughts on many plumed moths, Alucitidae? They’ve invented wing structures similar to the flight feathers of birds, it’s very cool!!

[@theMifyoo]

A thing I have been thinking for a while is perhaps the stories of dragons are actually about dinosaurs. That the stories were made in response to finding fossils in a prehistoric age or if some sort of instinct passage through mammals conjures the image of the fearsome terrors.

[@PungiFungi]

Mammals lived in the shadows of the reptiles for a long time, this fear of them may be a leftover genetic fear inherited from our shrew like mammal ancestors.

[@thomasfx3190]

I’m not a natural enthusiast, I spend my time with computers, but I found this content fascinating. Thank you.

[@SieMiezekatze]

To be fair 60 millions of years is plenty of time for many awkward bird like creatures to exist and later on go extinguished

[@hailmammonmoments7568]

I love this show, and really love how you turn an argument into an ecological narrative. And I love the ancient awkward tree dragons 🤣

[@tylociraptor8131]

"Birds are not normal" as a bird enthusiast and one who grew up owning a parrot... jeez i coulda told you that

[@lyokianhitchhiker]

I guess parrots are the orange cats of the bird world?

[@bluekenya4825]

Feathered flight won due to its better lift, less weight, excellent insulation, higher efficiency, and better resistance to damage. Membrane wings were the standard at one time, but they all disappeared save for bats, which would have disappeared as well were it not for their special adaptations.

[@GuyWithAnAmazingHat]

These membrane winged dinosaurs are the closest looking creatures to actual dragons

[@Whateverhasbeenmynameforyears]

Think you guys should be more choosey with your sponsors...

[@JaniceinOR]

Agreed. While there is a little science to it, advertising a product that seems to be mostly for cosmetic purposes seems shallower than I want from PBS. (Of course, maybe if we contributed more money, or elected and supported legislators who gave PBS more federal money, they would not feel driven to have such sponsors.)

[@willemvandebeek]

Hear hear

[@rizkitri464]

I think the complex evolution of feathered dinosaurs is what saved them from the competition, like if their feathers are broken, they can just simply grow it back. Unlike the membrane wings, when it's broken, that's means death

[@davidboyle1902]

I’d love to see a discussion of pterosaur flight capabilities. The largest animal to ever take flight did so on wings that simply did not operate like bird’s wings. Best I can come up with is that they were adaptive in ways we have not yet discovered.

[@MsSonali1980]

There could also be environmental factors to play in. How was the atmosphere at that time, did they live near windy places (like shores) etc. Did they take off and land on cliffs.. How do modern species take off and land, large birds or bats...

[@david5davidable]

I think there's an episode on that but it wasn't as much about intricacies of wings but the general progression of the group.

[@lithobreak3812]

I've heard a few explanations about how pterosaurs flew in a way that allowed them to get larger, for one, despite all the wonders of feathered wings membrane wings, especially those of pterosaurs require way less bone to function, pterosaurs dedicated a single finger to supporting their wings, while birds dedicate their entire "hands" this made pterosaur wings lighter, but also contributed to another factor, since birds sacrificed their upper limbs for flying they need strong well developed legs to support their whole weight on the ground and perform other tasks as well, these big strong legs become dead weight and drag while in flight while the big and strong wings are dead weight while landed, meanwhile since pterosaurs still had functional hands they could relly almost entirely on their upper limbs, using their "arms" to support themselves both in the air and on the ground, meaning that the back legs could be much smaller and lighter.

[@nquiztor]

I really needed a PBS Eons video right at this moment. Thanks, Eons team!🌠

[@areareare9953]

I found out about the birds-dinosaur thing when I was a kid when they found Archaeopteryx. So nowadays I make sure all the local dinosaurs are well fed.

[@martijn9568]

You were no kid when Archaeopteryx was first discovered, or else you'd be about 150 years old😉

[@nicholaswestbury7689]

The foreo advert didn't feel particularly science-led

[@JaniceinOR]

Agreed. While there is a little science to it, advertising a product that seems to be mostly for cosmetic purposes seems shallower than I want from PBS. (Of course, maybe if we contributed more money, or elected and supported legislators who gave PBS more federal money, they would not feel driven to have such sponsors.)

[@willemvandebeek]

This channel has 2.5 million subscribers and an active Patreon... They should get enough money, don't they? :(