EP 45 - Power Quality & Sensitive Electronics

In this video I describe the basic issues that can arise with power quality, and I evaluate their effects on modern switched-mode power supplies. In the process, I give an overview of how switched-mode power supplies work, and I determine whether or not a traditional (non-inverter) portable generator is safe to use with switched-mode power supplies. In the process, I test an older computer power supply with a very dirty power output from a generator, and I interpret the results.
Edit: In the video I mentioned that the capacitor plague affected primarily Chinese capacitors. This is not the case; it was actually sever unknown brands of Taiwanese capacitors that were affected by the plague.
Keep in mind that my experiment with the generator is purely anecdotal and does not necessarily indicate that the use of sensitive equipment with dirty power sources will be safe in all cases. My analysis of switched-mode power supplies and the effects that dirty power may have on them is based on my own experience and should not be taken as a guarantee.
Although most power supplies should work with non-inverter generators, if you do choose to use them with one, you do so at your own risk.
Thanks for watching DielectricVideos!

[@ewicky]

Excellent video! That was a well executed "backyard science" experiment. Your choice of an inverter with 100W 120VAC light bulb as the load was ironic, in a good way. You essentially created an over-complicated, external inverter generator! Alternator from your genset, to DC in the ATC PSU, then inverted back to AC for the light bulb! I also really appreciated your clear enunciation and professional-style speaking.

[@nickgrnr]

After searching solutions to this topic for what seems forever I found it. The one video that explains it all. The holy grail of generator sine wave videos. You sir are a legend.

[@orlypalomar]

Thank you for confirming my thoughts on the matter. A lot of people swear by how clean the output is from an inverter generator, so much so that they say that non-inverter generators should not be used when powering up "sensitive" electronics. Though it is true that inverters are better, it's not to say that non-inverters are bad. I think that the marketing materials are exaggerating the effects of "bad" AC waveforms. No doubt that I'd still get an inverter just for the lower noise and fuel efficiency. But choosing between an inverter vs non-inverter generator to run electronic equipment is never a deal-breaker.

[@johncasey5594]

This is exactly the video/information I have been looking for. I recently bought a Champion 6,500 watt generator and had it converted to tri-fuel, primary fuel source natural gas, for power outages. All the bulbs in my house are 9 watt 60 watt equivalent LED and I am not one to turn them off and on as I enter and leave frequently used rooms. Similarly my wife and I tend to leave our TVs, media players and laptops on most of the time. I calculated our nominal power usage to be about 2,000 watts/hr, well below 50% of the generator capacity, check 1. Number 2 we don't tend to turn things off and on, check 2. My media server is fairly new, the power supply is 600 watts, but according to a watt meter I only use 170 watts, check 3. But there is our fridge, freezer and combo boiler/water heater. I am worried about these devices because they have indictor motors. I was going to put UPSs on my media server, etc because I have about $3,000 invested in it, but after your video, I am wondering if I should use UPSs for the inductor devices or is there a better, relatively inexpensive way to protect them while on generator power. P.S. The fridge and combo boiler/water heater are brand new, the freezer is ancient, if it blew up, I would not be too concerned.

[@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast]

Generator safety kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2LNhWZ3g6qBrKs

[@Kevinrichardsonministries]

Old but Great Video... Very Helpful... Thumbs Up !!

[@rpm3605]

Really useful information. I had some concerns about running some of my household equipment on my Harbor Freight Predator 4000. After seeing this video, I think I’m pretty safe. I may look into the Tripp-Lite Line conditioners for some added piece of mind.

[@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast]

Here is a reminder about portable generator safety: This reminder is just to make sure that everyone is aware of all the warnings and it’s just to remind people to be careful using portable generators. Everyone has to see this safety reminder. Every year, hundreds of people die or get injured when using portable generators due to carbon monoxide poisoning and electrocution. Make sure you are using your generator carefully and keeping others safe as well. There is something very serious that everyone should always be aware of when using generators. Some people do run their generator indoors which is not safe and that increases the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning which can cause death of family and you. Some people run their generator in wet conditions which can electrocute them. Here’s an advice about generator safety: please remember that you should never run your generator indoors. Remember that carbon monoxide is an odorless and colorless gas that you cannot see or smell. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer. Keep that in mind. Make sure your generator is 15-20 feet away from your house and away from doors, windows, and vents. Having a carbon monoxide detector is very important against generator safety. Some people also allow children to go near the portable generator which could pose risks. We need to keep an eye on our children making sure that they are not near the portable generator so they won’t get electrocuted or burned by the generator which is dangerous. A locking enclosure also keeps kids safe. A generator shed might look like a tempting place to explore, or take cover during a game of hide and seek, but a generator is a dangerous piece of equipment that can cause injury. It says on the manual that we should also keep children away at all times from the portable generator to avoid injuries. Please do not permit a child or unqualified people to operate the portable generator. Generators pose electrical risks. If you need to use your generator during wet weather, you need a generator tent to protect your generator from getting wet. Don’t let your generator get wet. Keep your generator dry and before using your generator, please make sure your hands and your generator is dry. Everything that is said on the generator’s operating manual should not be ignored. Never smoke cigarettes near the generator. Please keep flammable things away from the generator. Never overload your generator too. Your generator can catch fire. Never ever try to plug a generator cord into a wall outlet to avoid back feeding. Back feeding your generator is dangerous. Always turn on your generator first before plugging in appliances and shut off the appliances before turning your generator off. Use a heavy duty cord for your generator and the cord should not be worn out. All the instructions should be followed carefully. Never refuel your generator while it’s running. It can cause fire if fuel spills while your generator is hot. You should turn off your generator and let it cool off before refueling it. Having a fire extinguisher next to the generator is also important. This is only a reminder for everyone’s safety of using generators. Make sure your generator is properly grounded. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2LNhWZ3g6qBrKs and here is a video more about keeping others safe when using generators and also about our family’s safety. Hope this helps and everyone understands the safety requirements. Thank you. Be safe.

[@gerhardgroenewald6560]

Excellent channel, so much to learn from... Thank you

[@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast]

Here is a reminder about portable generator safety: This advice is just to make sure that everyone is aware of all the warnings and it’s just to remind people to be careful using portable generators. Everyone has to see this safety reminder. Every year, hundreds of people die or get injured when using portable generators due to carbon monoxide poisoning and electrocution. Make sure you are using your generator carefully and keeping others safe as well. There is something very serious that everyone should always be aware of when using generators. Some people do run their generator indoors which is not safe and that increases the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning which can cause death of family and you. Some people run their generator in wet conditions which can electrocute them. Here’s an advice about generator safety: please remember that you should never run your generator indoors. Remember that carbon monoxide is an odorless and colorless gas that you cannot see or smell. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer. Keep that in mind. Make sure your generator is 15-20 feet away from your house and away from doors, windows, and vents. Having a carbon monoxide detector is very important against generator safety. Some people also allow children to go near the portable generator which could pose risks. We need to keep an eye on our children making sure that they are not near the portable generator so they won’t get electrocuted or burned by the generator which is dangerous. A locking enclosure also keeps kids safe. A generator shed might look like a tempting place to explore, or take cover during a game of hide and seek, but a generator is a dangerous piece of equipment that can cause injury. It says on the manual that we should also keep children away at all times from the portable generator to avoid injuries. Please do not permit a child or unqualified people to operate the portable generator. Generators pose electrical risks. If you need to use your generator during wet weather, you need a generator tent to protect your generator from getting wet. Don’t let your generator get wet. Keep your generator dry and before using your generator, please make sure your hands and your generator is dry. Everything that is said on the generator’s operating manual should not be ignored. Never smoke cigarettes near the generator. Please keep flammable things away from the generator. Never overload your generator too. Your generator can catch fire. Never ever try to plug a generator cord into a wall outlet to avoid back feeding. Back feeding your generator is dangerous. Always turn on your generator first before plugging in appliances and shut off the appliances before turning your generator off. Use a heavy duty cord for your generator and the cord should not be worn out. All the instructions should be followed carefully. Never refuel your generator while it’s running. It can cause fire if fuel spills while your generator is hot. You should turn off your generator and let it cool off before refueling it. Having a fire extinguisher next to the generator is also important. This is only a reminder for everyone’s safety of using generators. Make sure your generator is properly grounded. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2LNhWZ3g6qBrKs and here is a video more about keeping others safe when using generators and also about our family’s safety. Hope this helps and everyone understands the safety requirements. Thank you. Be safe.

[@aatirehrarsiddiqui8894]

Top video mate

[@giocagno188]

Hi! Really great video! Maybe a stupid questione but: what if i plug an inverter to che 12v output of a generator? Or even to a battery charged by the generator? Will it provide thw same power of the AC output? Will it work? Tks a lot

[@joshuasmonk]

Is there a product I can purchase to plug into my generator and convert the modified sine wave in to pier sine wave?

[@volvo09]

Very informative! I have a newer but still basic harbor freight 3600w generator and it has circuitry in it to keep the voltage stable at almost any engine rpm, but the output freq will obviously change. I haven't scoped the waveform, but now I'm curious to see what it looks like. I don't like the engine screaming so I've turned it down to make a 50hz output, which has been ok on switch more supplies I've tested. I'll just have to see if that's ok for a new and old refrig compressor motor. I wouldn't want to overheat it by trying to save a little sound! I think my new fridge has an inverter / variable speed compressor.

[@DielectricVideos]

Induction motors will tend to run a bit hotter at lower frequencies. The current through an inductor as a function of time is described by the equation i(t) = (V/R)*[1-exp(-Rt/L)], which means that the longer the inductor is allowed to charge, the more current will flow through it. The lower frequency gives the coils of the motor more time to build up current flow, and thus it generates more heat. At 50 Hz it probably wouldn't be too far off of nominal, however, so there's a good chance it would still work. I would try it and just monitor the compressor temperature to see if it overheats. The discharge temperature shouldn't exceed 225 F for most refrigeration systems, so that might be something to monitor. Most compressors also have an internal thermal cut-out, so if the compressor stops unexpectedly and then starts back up a few minutes later, it is probably also overheating.

[@shawndavis9276]

thank you for not just explaining, but showing this. is there any commercially available protection (other than a regular high surge protector, either coming off the generator or as a power strip at the electronics) you might recommend?

[@natvega1]

Yes, Tripp-Lite line conditioner, $220.00 on Amazon or Home Depot, generators state in the instruction manuel that a line conditioner is required for use with sensitive equiptment, the line conditioner will keep your generators output 120v stable, it will adjust incoming voltage and will protect against incoming surges and line noise, it corrects high or low input voltage. I have the LC2400 for a 2200 watt generator, the Tripp-Lite Line conditioner is available for different wattage needs.

[@Imwright720]

I have a backup battery on my sensitive systems. I do run the whole house on generator occasionally.

[@sodiumvapor13]

Excellent videos! I'd be curious to see how the waveform from the gasoline generator changes with high resitive loads.

[@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast]

Here is a reminder about portable generator safety: this is only a reminder for anyone who use portable gas/propane generators. This is just to make sure that everyone is aware of all the warnings and it’s just to remind people to be careful using portable generators. Everyone has to see this safety reminder. Every year, hundreds of people die or get injured when using portable generators due to carbon monoxide poisoning and electrocution. Make sure you are using your generator carefully and keeping others safe as well. There is something very serious that everyone should always be aware of when using generators. Some people do run their generator indoors which is not safe and that increases the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning which can cause death of family and you. Some people run their generator in wet conditions which can electrocute them. Here’s an advice about generator safety: please remember that you should never run your generator indoors. Remember that carbon monoxide is an odorless and colorless gas that you cannot see or smell. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer. Keep that in mind. Make sure your generator is 15-20 feet away from your house and away from doors, windows, and vents. Having a carbon monoxide detector is very important against generator safety. Some people also allow children to go near the portable generator which could pose risks. We need to keep an eye on our children making sure that they are not near the portable generator so they won’t get electrocuted or burned by the generator which is dangerous. A locking enclosure also keeps kids safe. A generator shed might look like a tempting place to explore, or take cover during a game of hide and seek, but a generator is a dangerous piece of equipment that can cause injury. It says on the manual that we should also keep children away at all times from the portable generator to avoid injuries. Please do not permit a child or unqualified people to operate the portable generator. Generators pose electrical risks. If you need to use your generator during wet weather, you need a generator tent to protect your generator from getting wet. Don’t let your generator get wet. Keep your generator dry and before using your generator, please make sure your hands and your generator is dry. Everything that is said on the generator’s operating manual should not be ignored. Never smoke cigarettes near the generator. Please keep flammable things away from the generator. Never overload your generator too. Your generator can catch fire. Never ever try to plug a generator cord into a wall outlet to avoid back feeding. Back feeding your generator is dangerous. Always turn on your generator first before plugging in appliances and shut off the appliances before turning your generator off. Use a heavy duty cord for your generator and the cord should not be worn out. All the instructions should be followed carefully. Never refuel your generator while it’s running. It can cause fire if fuel spills while your generator is hot. You should turn off your generator and let it cool off before refueling it. Having a fire extinguisher next to the generator is also important. This is only a reminder for everyone’s safety of using generators. Make sure your generator is properly grounded. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2LNhWZ3g6qBrKs and here is a video more about keeping others safe when using generators and also about our family’s safety. Hope this helps and everyone understands the safety requirements. Thank you. Be safe.

[@kchilz32]

@@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast stop trolling every generator related videos.

[@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast]

@@kchilz32 you don’t have to be mean to anyone who is only reminding people.

[@kchilz32]

@@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast not being mean, it’s not about feelings. I’m stating a fact, most of what you are saying and the video you are linking on every channel is the exact same I formation that the manuals and The KZbinrs state. You are literally flooding every generator channel with the same cut and paste comments.

[@kchilz32]

@@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast trolling is another word for spamming

[@ewicky]

I often hear inverter-generator marketing materials referring to clean power for "sensitive electronics like computers and cellphone chargers" but we know now that's BS. "Sensitive electronics" would more likely be tube amps, HAM radios, CRTs, or other (mostly old) electronics that actually depend on their supply being a perfect 60Hz or a perfect 110-120VAC. Also, and again it's ironic that it's the opposite of the marking materials, but the opposite of "sensitive electronics" like dumb motors found in refrigerators, etc. that are induction and dumb transformers may also run at the incorrect speed, incorrect current, and/or hum or buzz excessively. I've heard some UPSs will refuse to resume normal AC operation on generators because they are looking for 58-62Hz, and many generators run a little fast at 63Hz. So the UPS will stay on battery power until the generator is sufficiently loaded to bog the speed a little.

[@cyberwasp461]

Excellent video.I'm new to scopes and am learning to test dc circuits. I recently watched one where a guy was testing UPS units showing the horrible outputs when on battery. I have a newer APC sinewave ups. I'd like to see the output on my scope but am not sure how to do it safely as I've seen tutorials about being careful with shared ground and scopes.

[@DielectricVideos]

The "right" ways to measure mains-referenced circuits are to either connect the device under test to an isolation transformer, or to use isolated oscilloscope probes. The "wrong" way that I usually use is to just remove the ground pin from the oscilloscope's power cable. This leaves the scope floating, so no fault current can flow through the scope cable to earth ground. The downside of this is that all metal parts of the scope are now at the measurement potential of your circuit, so touching the scope can be hazardous. With some care, it is fairly easy to avoid being shocked. I wouldn't officially recommend my method, but I figured I'd mention it anyway. It's also worth noting that if you are probing the UPS with its power cord and I/O cables unplugged, then it is technically isolated from ground already, and as such **should** be OK to probe directly. In any case, I take no responsibility for the results of your experiment if anything gets blown up!

[@cyberwasp461]

@@DielectricVideos Even though I have an isolated probe, "never used," I'll just leave it to the pro's or dare devils!

[@MalinowyWampir]

Great explanation. One thing I would like to know how to connect an oscilloscope without damaging it. I have a 230v diesel power generator and I would like to measure output sine wave. I'm concerned damaging the oscilloscope if I connect neutral probe to the chassis and the positive probe to 230v load.

[@DielectricVideos]

I usually connect the oscilloscope with the ground pin removed from the power cord. This can also be dangerous, though, as the chassis of the scope can become live. A safer way is to plug the oscilloscope into an isolation transformer.

[@MalinowyWampir]

@@DielectricVideos I need to take a look into this, thanks. Maybe portable oscilloscope will be a solution.

[@YKLABATYD]

Is is possible to improve the quality of current produced by this type of generator, by adding UPS or some kind of inverter to generators output? I want to buy a generator and looking at Honda they have like 4 different types, with different price points, inverters are 2-3 times more expensive, i am wondering is is there a cheaper alternative.

[@user-th8sz1wu3o]

I have a new 13000watt predator generator it has a AVR it has a RV serge protector between generator and transfer switch. My concern is THD the generator uses less than 50 percent of the running watts. Anyone have any recommendations

[@user-ui4iv8dz3w]

The only thing that changes when you mess with idle speed on a genie, is the HERTZ.

[@DielectricVideos]

If there's no AVR, both the frequency (Hertz) and the voltage follow the speed. See the blue trace (generator output) at 28:35 for example.

[@kermets]

Awesome video thanks.....What would happen if you fitted some large Caps to the Generator output ? would that help smooth any spikes that may happen on a cheaper crappy Chinese none inverter genset. Brett

[@DielectricVideos]

I will have to try that! Good idea!

[@OTAlucard]

@@DielectricVideos do you think that it would help with the waveform of the generator?

[@frankodonnell9956]

Great stuff! thanks for the detailed descriptions. What about the heating of the Genset windings due to harmonics and hash from several SPMS?

[@DielectricVideos]

That would be a fantastic experiment to try! I might set up 2 tests with the same power draw from pure resistive load and SMPS load, respectively, to see if there is any detectable change in winding/case temperature!

[@aliaspancho89]

Great video man I was about to sell my generator I just purchased because I was afraid it might damage my appliances

[@demetriosa7646]

What about generators with AVR’s?

[@SavedbyHim]

Very interesting. So I'm thinking, can I run our church sound system directly from a normal generator with no other switching loads attached and a dummy load of maybe 200W just to keep the generator stable at low loads?

[@DielectricVideos]

You may want to try a small number of devices to make sure they work correctly before connecting everything. One other risk that I didn't mention in the video is the risk of the governor on the engine going into runaway, which could cause a large sustained overvoltage. Definitely be sure the generator engine is in decent condition if you're wanting to connect lot of expensive load to it.

[@SavedbyHim]

@@DielectricVideos Good ideas, thanks for the reply!

[@52wml]

Great video, very informative. I have a an old Generac 5000 watt brushless gen-set that I use for emergency back up power. I was curious if the alternator design brushed vs brushless makes a difference in the quality of the output power. The reason I am curious is due to the fact that I have used this generator several times and it doesn't appear to effect any of the electronic devices I have, in particular flat panel TV's, furnace with electronic controls and my computer which has an APC Back-UPS RS 1500G ups and is set for high sensitivity. However when I hooked up my neighbors 5000 watt generator which is much newer and has a brushed alternator it does have an effect the furnace controls and my UPS. The furnace goes into a standby mode and the APC UPS immediately switches to battery backup. Both gen-sets are within +/- 4 volts of 120 volts when running and the frequency ranges between 58-62 Hz for both generators. The difference between the two generators is my 20 year old generator is brushless and utilizes a capacitor to regulate voltage and his is a 5 year old brushed alternator with AVR.

[@DielectricVideos]

That's an interesting observation. I would suspect that the brushes could be introducing commutation noise into the field coil, causing small voltage fluctuations which trigger an out-of-tolerance error on the UPS. It could also be that the alternator is producing a similar triangle-wave like mine does, which could result in higher peak voltages despite having a correct RMS voltage. Do you have access to an oscilloscope by any chance to directly display the output waveforms of each generator?

[@52wml]

Unfortunately I gave away my old Tektronix to a friend a few years ago when I moved thinking I wouldn't have much use for it any more but it would be interesting to see the outputs of each genset.

[@The_Happy_Aviation_Enthusiast]

Here is a reminder about portable generator safety: This advice is just to make sure that everyone is aware of all the warnings and it’s just to remind people to be careful using portable generators. Everyone has to see this safety reminder for safety. Every year, hundreds of people die or get injured when using portable generators due to carbon monoxide poisoning and electrocution. Make sure you are using your generator carefully and keeping others safe as well. There is something very serious that everyone should always be aware of when using generators. Some people do run their generator indoors which is not safe and that increases the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning which can cause death of family and you. Some people run their generator in wet conditions which can electrocute them. Please remember that you should never run your generator indoors. Remember that carbon monoxide is an odorless and colorless gas that you cannot see or smell. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer. Keep that in mind. Make sure your generator is 15-20 feet away from your house and away from doors, windows, and vents. Never use your generator in your porch too. Having a carbon monoxide detector is very important against generator safety. Some people also allow children to go near the portable generator which could pose risks. We need to keep an eye on our children making sure that they are not near the portable generator so they won’t get electrocuted or burned by the generator which is dangerous. A locking enclosure also keeps kids safe. A generator shed might look like a tempting place to explore, or take cover during a game of hide and seek, but a generator is a dangerous piece of equipment that can cause injury. It says on the manual that we should also keep children away at all times from the portable generator to avoid injuries. Please do not allow a child or unqualified people to operate the portable generator. Just because some manuals missed what should be listed doesn’t mean it’s safe to do. Always follow the generator safety rules when using portable generators. Generators pose electrical risks. If you need to use your generator during wet weather, you need a generator tent to protect your generator from getting wet. Don’t let your generator get wet. Keep your generator dry and before using your generator, please make sure your hands and your generator is dry. Do not wear loose clothing when operating the generator. Everything that is said on the generator’s operating manual should not be ignored. Never smoke cigarettes near the generator. Please keep flammable things away from the generator. Never overload your generator too. Your generator can catch fire. Never ever try to plug a generator cord into a wall outlet to avoid back feeding. Back feeding your generator is dangerous. Always turn on your generator first before plugging in appliances and shut off the appliances before turning your generator off. Use a heavy duty cord for your generator and the cord should not be worn out. All the instructions should be followed carefully. Never refuel your generator while it’s running. It can cause fire if fuel spills while your generator is hot. You should turn off your generator and let it cool off before refueling it. Having a fire extinguisher next to the generator is also important. This is only a reminder for everyone’s safety of using generators. Make sure your generator is properly grounded. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2LNhWZ3g6qBrKs and here is a video more about keeping others safe when using generators and also about our family’s safety. Hope this helps. Thank you. Hope you stay safe

[@mikemccarthy6939]

stop trolling generator videos

[@52wml]

@@mikemccarthy6939 ???????

[@tersta1]

I have a sine wave inverter that's putting out about 110V and I have an electronic pilot ignition on my gas furnace that demands exactly 120V. I suppose my problem fits into the brown out category. What can I do to condition the line and boost the current up to a steady 120V? Hope you can help. Will something like the Trip Lite power line conditioner solve my problem? Will a basic power bar/surge protector do the job?

[@DielectricVideos]

The power conditioner could work if it has active voltage regulation in it but a standard surge protector won't raise the voltage. A variable autotransformer (variac) could also work, as they typically allow a +10% increase in voltage at the top end of their scale: www.amazon.com/dp/B078Z7XYT2/ref=twister_B07G5BHXYV?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 You could also wire a low-voltage transformer (such as a 10-volt doorbell transformer) in series with the inverter output to form a fixed-ratio autotransformer. This is more advanced, though, and would require working directly with high-voltage wiring. One other question is whether the furnace ignition is not working due to undervoltage, or due to some other issue. Usually there is a +/-10% tolerance on input voltage for mains-powered electronics, so it may be the case that it is not working for some other reason. Is the inverter pure sine or modified sine? Does the furnace require a solid ground between chassis and neutral to function?

[@tersta1]

@@DielectricVideos Yep. I found the variac and that's what I need. I have one on order. Thanks for getting back to me and confirming that I've found the right device - variac, a 2000V, 20A will handle the electronic pilot and clean up the signal for small appliances too.

[@jolkraeremeark6949]

@@DielectricVideos Just wonder, and maybe it's covered in the video, but a floating neutral generator could also create problems with the furnace if powering directly.

[@greginfla7211]

Still struggling to understand. Are you saying non inverter generators okay to use? That the risk are over blown?

[@tonyk.8580]

In your opinion would a generator with an AVR and THD of 12-20% be ok for tvs and a 80% efficiency furnace? I mainly got it to be a backup for my well pump and to charge things but it would be nice to run the furnace if I ever lost power in winter.

[@DielectricVideos]

I suspect so. The TVs will likely have universal power supplies (90-260VAC), so they should be less susceptible to voltage spikes. The control board in the furnace is likely powered directly from a 24VAC transformer, so it might be more susceptible. However, in either case the AVR should help stabilize the voltage, so I believe it should work. Just verify that the generator's peak starting power is adequate to start the furnace motor, which will draw 5-10x its normal running power when first starting.

[@tonyk.8580]

Thanks for the reply and the video, really well done concise. @@DielectricVideos

[@PandorasBox2]

very informative thank you thou i have another question does this problem is also continued on AVR power generator or just traditional generators? and if still same issue how to fix that so besafe for using generators for PC and other sensitive equipments

[@DielectricVideos]

AVR generators can in many cases have more stable output voltage than non-AVR generators. If the AVR is poorly tuned, though, it could potentially cause even worse voltage spikes during sudden decreases in load.

[@PandorasBox2]

@@DielectricVideos thanks for info and awuch so how can i know if its good AVR or not! im not expert like you

[@greginfla7211]

I have seen other sites say that powered line conditioners are useless with non-inverter generators...

[@DielectricVideos]

In more or less constant-load conditions, the conventional generator would likely not be problematic for most electronics. However, one thing that I did not cover in this video, but that is very important to consider, is the effect that transient load changes will have on output voltage. The most likely time for damage to occur to a load connected to a generator like this is when another large load is suddenly disconnected, causing the output voltage of the generator to spike. The effect of a power conditioner will depend on the type of power conditioner, and how it performs voltage control. If it can quickly control voltage, it might improve the survival rate of electronics in these conditions. A simple surge suppressor may do the same, although it may quickly degrade the MOVs. In general, it's hard to specifically say "this generator is safe for electronics", but in general if large load variations are avoided, it is unlikely to cause problems.

[@TheWilferch]

@@DielectricVideos ...going further on your previous ( and excellent) responses to me on surge protectors and line conditioners.....I'm reading more of the comment issues and return here. So,,.,....in this case, can we say it's good to have some amount of excess (watts produced) capacity?....meaning...... is it better to get a bigger unit, to have it be loaded at (say) 50% of max load instead of 80%?...such that on/off switching of your loads can produce smaller variations in output? Still thinking this might be better for most of us vs inverter style replacement of our genset....both at a smaller , same rating?

[@DielectricVideos]

@@TheWilferch A bigger unit will have more inertia, so it should ride through load steps more smoothly. That being said, they typically run most efficiently between 50-80% load, so if you go too large, your fuel-to-electricity conversion efficiency may go down. I'd probably try to size the generator so that the typical full load is around 60% of its capacity, and definitely don't let peak load exceed 100% of design rating. Also note that induction motors can pull 5-8x their nameplate current and power when starting, so if you have any large motors, you should be sure the generator can deliver around 5x the namplate power rating of the motor (this can be peak generator rating, and need not be its continuous rating).

[@TheWilferch]

@@DielectricVideos ...Excellent !!!...here's more....when I investigated my split-system home AC/heating system ( all electric).....I came across comments from others that when adding a 521-style hard-start system on the outside unit....it drastically reduced the starting load on the compressor and made starts on standby generators a lot easier.....maybe this approach can be applied to folks who have to contend with many ( or large) motor starts on gen power?

[@chrismaddox15]

You aren't related to Mr Carlson's Lab are you? Are you his son?

[@DielectricVideos]

No, but his channel is fantastic!

[@fazalihaseebtv7877]

this generator is pure sine wave or not?

[@DielectricVideos]

It's an old-style unregulated AC generator. Although ideally it should be pure sine, there is substantial harmonic distortion in its output due to poor flux linkage and insufficient output filtering.

[@Fortitudoo]

learned a lot here i dont have a excuse 2 say that often

[@danray9744]

Make sure to buy a generator with a AVR Most Cheap Low end Generators don't have a AVR ( Automatic Voltage Regulator ) they use a Capacitor to Regulate the AC Voltage & when engine speed goings Up or Down the AC Voltage does the same Up & Down, But a AVR Keeps the AC Voltage at a Set Voltage 120 or 240

[@DielectricVideos]

Great point! The generator shown here doesn't have an AVR, so its voltage follows the engine speed and to some extent the applied load.

[@TheWilferch]

@@DielectricVideos ..funny...everyone disses Harbor Freight Predator Generators...yet if you look closely at the build architecture and componentry they mimic all the other brands available for home use....and yes....they have ( at least my model does).....an AVR.

[@DielectricVideos]

@@TheWilferch Harbor Freight power equipment has always been really good in my experience. I have one of their 400W modified sine wave inverters from 2015, and I've put thousands of hours on it, including several overloads and a positive/negative terminal reversal. Other than replacing the fuse after the reversal, it's been an extremely solid inverter!

[@TheWilferch]

@@DielectricVideos ..let me go further.....assume that your normal generator is set up ( as I did), to back-feed your home's main panel during a power outage, via an interlock system added to your main panel.... and using an inlet PB30 receptacle, that takes an L14-30R connector between the house inlet connection and the generator. Is there still a reasonably economical way to add line conditioning?...or...would it be a plug-in to whatever specific circuit home wall receptacle?..... feeding whatever "delicate" electronics you are trying to protect? Meaning...only a smaller and more specific-duty device for one of the breaker circuits or specific wall receptacle connection? Hope this makes sense. I'm not using individual 120V extension chords from the generator hooked-up this way.

[@DielectricVideos]

@@TheWilferch For a whole-house generator supply I think the easiest method would to be to install point-of-use line conditioning at the loads you are looking to protect. A voltage regulator unit would probably be adequate, assuming the loads are not also frequency-sensitive. If they are frequency-sensitive, then a rectifier-inverter system might be in order.

[@user-ui4iv8dz3w]

any genie worth anything should fire up on the 1st pull.

[@jamesalles139]

Define sensitive electronics, please. I only see that in marketing literature. Many of us are missing the boat. Local generators (even large stationary gensets) have a much higher impedance than the grid. (See Eatons' vids on YT). The grid can overpower a lot of noise - the kind often generated by switching power supplies and variable speed drives. Although it is possible to see bad waveforms on faulty generators (unloaded), quite often the waveform goes to pot due to the load. Traditional motor-generators will be happy with resistive loads (incandescent lamps) and inductive loads (motors, compressors) They will not deal well with switching power supplies and the harmonics _of the load_ - like computer power supplies, smart battery chargers, etc. It is those electronics that _cause the problem._ The only real 'sensitive electronics' that might have issues with a small generators are those that rely on the line source for clock reference. Motors are sensitive to the harmonics of switching PS loads in that they will overheat due to the harmonics. I would state that inverter based power sources (modified or pure sine wave) should be used for the switching power supplies to deal with the THD that results. Don't use a modified sine wave power source for a motor load, and keep switching power adapters off of the same source serving motors/compressors. Resistive loads don't care one way or the other. Match the source with the load for the best results.

[@immrnoidall]

crappy generator + large battery charger + large deep cycle battery + large pure sine inverter. = large inverter generator with other usage.

[@DielectricVideos]

An excellent idea, thank you!

[@immrnoidall]

@@DielectricVideos thanks.the so-call lead acid deep cycle battery guy at the RV parts store that i spoke to, told me never run them down past 11.5..11.5 to 10.5 is where most damage is done. he added"especially with the cheap ones at wall mart. in my boredom I looked into what separates the "good" from the "bad" and found the biggest difference is about 30 cents worth of plastic. the plates are farther away from the bottom so when the lead or whatever, starts to shed off and build up on the bottom, it takes longer to build up enough to short the bottom of the plates together. i guess that shedding happens most between 11.5-10.5. why the cutoff on every thing is 10.5, is beyond me. but it is a battery killer. someone should make something that replaces the caps ,with something to monitor what is going on inside. well, thanks for the thanks and thank you too. i learned a lot from your video. the sharing of needed info on KZbin gives me hope for humanity. LOL .

[@nicholasdubose8501]

That is a great idea to consider to obtain cleaner AC signal for expensive electronics, just to be safe. Question though, this should work without the deep cycle battery, I would think. Is the battery there just to provide a more steady DC supply?

[@DielectricVideos]

@@nicholasdubose8501 The battery would allow you to keep the power on even when the generator is off (such as at night), but wouldn't be strictly necessary. As you saw in the video, a 12V switched-mode power supply has no problem running on the generator even when the voltage sags very low, so you could definitely run a pure sine inverter from a power supply connected directly to the generator with no battery.

[@immrnoidall]

@@nicholasdubose8501 i'm not sure. i know the inverter generators are kind of complicated with a clutch and flywheel to regulate the right needs without a battery. and they are usually not very high output. i was wondering if some giant capacitors ,instead of batteries would be nice. they last forever.

[@AnthonyCelata]

I know this is old but if anyone happens to know, what would be the purpose of that NTC resistor that limits inrush until its warmed up? Is there something in there that needs to like be above room temp to function correctly? Whats the point?

[@DielectricVideos]

When the power supply is first plugged in, the HV capacitors are fully discharged, and essentially appear as a dead short. As a result, some resistance is needed to prevent damage to the rectifier and capacitors, as well as to prevent nuisance tripping of circuit breakers. Resistance in the input circuit while the power supply is operating is inefficient, so it is important to remove this resistance once the capacitor bank is charged up. An NTC thermistor is great for this, as it has high resistance when the power supply first starts, but then drops to a much lower resistance after current has flowed through it for some time and it has warmed up. The NTC's resistance gets lower as the power supply draws more current, so it limits power loss to a small (but nonzero) value regardless of the operating current of the power supply.

[@AnthonyCelata]

instant sub