Ep136: Meeting of the Dharmas - Daniel Ingram & Delson Armstrong

In this episode I host a dialogue between Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong.
Daniel Ingram is an independent Buddhist writer, author of ‘Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha’, and co-founder of the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium (EPRC).
Delson Armstrong is a spiritual teacher, author of ’A Mind Without Craving’, and the star student of Bhante Vimalaramsi.
Daniel and Delson discuss the similarities and differences between their doctrinal positions and personal experiences of the 4-path model of Buddhist enlightenment, which ranges from stream entry to arhatship.
In this collegial yet rigorous dialogue, Daniel and Delson engage in detailed debate on the differences in their positions and draw on personal experience, scriptural examples, and issues of scientific verification.
They also discuss the effect of enlightenment on psychopathy and other personality disorders, reflect on which meditation methods best fit different personality types, and conduct in-depth analysis of the phenomenon of ‘nirodha samapatti’.
…
www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep...
Also available on KZbin, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics Include:
00:00 - Intro
01:49 - Daniel on stream entry
05:03 - Delson on stream entry
08:08 - Afterglow of stream entry and dependent origination
14:34 - 3 fetters discussion
24:24 - Does stream entry result in moral improvement?
28:49 - Can you retrain a sociopath with loving kindness meditation?
30:51 - Does stream entry make sociopaths and psychopaths more dangerous?
35:18 - Saints & psychopaths - how can we differentiate?
41:03 - 2nd path and the reduction of craving and aversion
47:30 - 2nd path vs stream entry - which is more profound?
53:13 - Daniel on 3rd path
56:18 - Delson on 3rd path
59:23 - Daniel’s critique of the traditional 3rd path position
01:03:05 - Delson and Daniel dialogue about 3rd path
01:10:40 - Is it possible to completely eradicate craving and aversion?
01:16:00 - Scientific testing and Bikkhu Analayo’s critique
01:23:39 - Delson on TWIM the importance of method
01:26:18 - What is nirodha samapatti?
01:28:08 - Comparing Daniel and Delson’s abilities
01:29:33 - How to train for nirodha samapatti
01:32:25 - Different personalities and jhana aptitude
01:36:43 - Resolution training and balancing enlightenment factors
01:38:18 - Steve on Delson’s yoga training and the three humours
01:43:40 - More on matching personality types to meditation methods
01:53:58 - Arhatship and agency
01:56:20 - Agency vs conceit
02:00:21 - Disagreement between Daniel and Delson about outcomes of arhatship
02:08:30 - Compassion vs suffering
02:13:01 - Suicide and arhatship
02:21:17- The dusty end of the path
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Daniel Ingram Episode Playlist
- • Daniel Ingram Series
Delson Armstrong Episode Playlist:
- • Delson Armstrong
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To find out more about Daniel, visit:
- theeprc.org/
- integrateddaniel.info
To find out more about Delson Armstrong, visit:
- www.suttavada.foundation/our-...
- www.dhammasukha.org/
…
For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com
…
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James

[@dean9628]

We are incredibly fortunate to have someone like you, Steve. You being able to bring a number great practitioners together to have a dialogue is amazing. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation.

[@davechiu413]

It’s hilarious that Steve labels himself as a mere muggle. Yet the Guru Viking podcast he built is literally a modern day Hogwarts.

[@thomascreedon]

Delson has a real vibe to him, effortlessly vibing and not putting anything personal on the line and being extremely graceful, whether or not his body would have a physiological response to sexual stimuli or physical pain, seems like a red herring in all this - psychologically he is clearly detached from identifying with this physiological stuff. The dude seems like hes at peace, with no dog in any of the fights

[@chadkline4268]

I think the point of sexual response and pain is 2 fold. 1) how aligned is his experience with traditional accounts. 2) what should people think about teachers that have sex with their students. Can they be legitimate teachers?

[@bimbram]

Appearance can be deceiving. Delson's claims are too extreme to believe without proper test

[@Alejandro388]

weird, I got quite the opposite: Daniel made a point by talking exclusively of his own experience as he went along the path, while Delson was kinda emphasing lines of thought of his lineage and tradition, as if he was ambassador for someone/something else, which is not useful to me as listener of live discussion

[@markjohnson543]

@@Alejandro388 I think Delson's experience is in line with the description as given in the suttas. so he is giving both the traditional and personal at the same time. I didn't hear anything from him that hasn't been validated by his personal experience.

[@markjohnson543]

@@bimbram It is good to be skeptical. Something of Delson's genuineness (or not) can be garnered from watching his videos, reading his books, and the testimony of people who have met him (fellow dhamma practitioners) or who have studied him (the scientists). Delson answers the question from Guru Viking in the podcast on how to tell whether a teacher is genuine. He says you have to meet him or her, and have conversation to find out how the person sees and experiences the world.

[@trevgrooves]

In this episode I will drink from multiple coffee mugs and host one of the most epic interviews on KZbin 🤙🏻 Thank you 🙏🏻

[@GuruViking]

😂😂😂

[@CharlieMorley]

Without doubt the best podcast series on the internet. Imagine if everyone watching Joe Rogan watched Guru Viking?!😲🙏🏼

[@axilleaskazuya5370]

God daaamn, I was waiting for something like that

[@tomtillman]

Best podcast channel on the internet. An interviewer who can get the most amazing people to participate, and knows when to ask questions and when to be quiet. Also, no one is interrupting. Thank you!

[@synsynsy]

Wow, Steve giving us access to MVP's! Epic!!!

[@looklikemyles]

steve is such a great host. every time daniel asked for his opinion, i'd be so tempted to say dumb unhelpful things about myself

[@MissBardoJeep]

Ty so much tor hosting these things mr. Viking. Really some of the most amazing content ive seen on the internet.

[@bimbram]

I can't wait for this!

[@lovelife533]

So excited to watch this after my classes today! The real learning about to begin :)

[@johnandrewmunroe]

Can't wait for this. Thank you Steve!

[@ziggtron6719]

Amazing! This is a conversation Ive wanted to hear for a while! Great work GV!

[@augustdormer8832]

really excited for this conversation :D

[@avinash261]

Greate video, when have so much expectations with this episodes, its feels like so much things left out, waiting for part2

[@HanjoYoutaku]

Glad to see a conversation between these two. Compatible

[@nabsnabster3488]

Gratitude. Thank You. Peace, Love and Light.

[@TintomaraAriadne]

What a refreshing thing to watch this kind of dialogue with all the joy and mutual appreciation of the other perspective! I love it! Thankyou, all three of you!

[@MindfulnessExercises]

Fascinating interview! Thank you! :)

[@DustTown]

Steve James. Amazing interview as always, definitely looking forward to more series like these. There are lots of specific questions to be asked based on Ingram’ and Delson’s books/materials for more advanced stages--no-nonsense discussion on those are hard to find elsewhere in most places. (e.g. micro-phenomenlogical patterns of 3 doors according to Ingram, meaning of path and fruition of sotapanna, difference between cessation and contact with nirvana element, identification with post-cessation relief as sokadami vs anagami etc.) .it would be great if there are more discussion on those, as opposed to the siddhis-most of which are more easily triangulated through science in terms of scope and validity claims.

[@sirlordcomic]

Daniel always gives good value in these chats. Nice talk. I look forward to the next.

[@juricakalcina987]

Great discussion! Thank you 🙏🏻

[@kartoffeldrucker]

as a muggle, I really I enjoyed that conversation! awesome moderation! Thank you for bringing the gurus together to talk. May all beings be happy

[@biscottone3357]

Both come across as genuine. This discussion has been brilliant. Thank you for this gift.

[@Samantabhadri]

Fabulous and inspiring discourse, thank you!

[@ricarpag]

Thank you very much. A very deep conversation.

[@chefbob67]

Excellent video! Thanks!

[@seminchung2433]

Lots of appreciations!!!

[@idk-sx3th]

Thanks again for putting together all of these many fascinating meetings between modern masters 😁. If anyone's out and about getting up to a bit of 'God's work' I think it might be you, Steve. Peace, my man 😊🌼💕

[@markjohnson543]

Great episode. Thank you Guru Viking for hosting this illuminating discussion between two highly accomplished and eloquent dhamma teachers. I love how well and openly they listen to each other throughout. No ego on the line!

[@Darksagan]

This is a great discussion. Thanks

[@tropicaldrink12]

I’d love to see Delson’s solo on dependent origination. I’ve watched a few videos on this channel by now and I really appreciate how great interviewer you are. You didn’t ask too much in this one but you ask great questions and listens well.

[@mariodelrisco2403]

check suttavada foundation channel

[@journeyingdeeperinward]

Thank you!

[@deborahbayer5798]

🙏💗🤯😊❗Thank you so much gentlemen.

[@DPSAX95]

I have a feeling Dan is gonna talk about his wands

[@slobma7973]

Absolutely loved it! Steve, I was fantasizing for years about the day I could see some advance accomplished practitioners talking openly about their experiences and attainments. You make it happen and I am deeply grateful for that. Now, I would love to get into the mix the awareness-rigpa tradition. Let me fantasize again and dream a dialogue with Delson, Daniel and Mattheu Ricard for example. That would be an absolutely awesome meeting to witness. I got the feeling Delson and Daniel practicing the Theravada tradition, know very well what we are not (not the body, the thoughts, consciousness etc) but the questions is who are we then?, Awareness traditions answer is we are awaken awareness knowing itself by itself. I would love to see Delson-Dan talking to a similarly accomplished practitioner in an Awareness tradition.

[@JazzyDef]

Nobody include Buddah never answer this speculative question. But they actually put an answer between the lines a few times, and its common answer to post anatta theravadian practicioners, something like: "all what it is just a dancing interconnected, dependent origin sensations that direct now itselfs " Not this not that nor neither or both) Or K. Rinpoche: We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Check awakeningtoreality blog for futher info))

[@JazzyDef]

Steve, your way of speaking have beautiful vibe too and u got such a nice skill like interviewer. Its sctructured and logical and open minded, but still rigorous in some sticky topics. TY! Keep going. Siddhis theme will be awesome, man!)

[@onelove7069]

A really interesting talk, thanks steve for facilitating these talks and topics. When talking about sociopaths i thought about milarepa as a good example of one who initially perfected yogic type skills for the wrong reasons, but then of course repented and was then able, through great discipline to achieve full realisation

[@LeftOfToday]

This curious interest in psychopathy in regards/comparison to enlightenment sure comes up on this channel a lot. I'm not sure if it's just Daniel's interest, but I do think it might be worth keeping in mind that any understanding we have of mental illness - particularly those in the cluster b disorders area (given how controversial they are) - are perhaps not nearly as well understood as we'd like to believe; given a hundred or more years from now, the definitions of such disorders may well be completely different to what they are defined as today. I think it worth erring on the side of caution when it comes to putting complete faith in psychology/psychiatry's current understanding of these disorders given the scientific limitations that are part and parcel with trying to understand the human mind from such an angle, too. In fact, there are more recent papers beginning to come out that dispute the existence of personality disorders - at least some of them - and that the groupings themselves may be unnecessarily prejudice. One such paper is "Personality Disorders are Dead, Long Live the Interpersonal Disorders." Food for thought... After all: everything is open to interpretation, and subject to change!

[@collosgaia138]

I find it intriguing that Daniel Ingram is not fully enlightented, yet I struggle to find a comment pointing out this obvious fact... It doesn't take any serious scrutiny to come to that conclusion, but that's just my opinion.

[@midooley543]

He definitely isn’t an arahant

[@RomDoctor]

Steve, thanks for this! Great stuff as always! I would like to suggest you to invite a Tibetan lama to join the discussion next time. It would be great to hear from that perspective also. Thanks 🙏

[@VeritableVagabond]

Guru Viking is truly @ the cutting edge.

[@synsynsy]

No, sati is at the cutting edge. 😋

[@VeritableVagabond]

@@synsynsy Nice 😂

[@TheNovanc]

Fantastic!

[@littledarkone1995]

Yes!

[@sleepywoodelf]

Daniel should open a monastery that conducts longitudinal scientific studies of meditation etc. I'd renounce and join in a heartbeat.

[@jags3352]

Much Love

[@epinephrin]

HOLY CRAP EPIC. The two most Olympic meditators ever in conversation!!! How rich are we.

[@midooley543]

They aren’t arahants

[@epinephrin]

@@midooley543Delsukncam literally enter into 30 day samadhi with a stopped heart and doesn’t suffer from body pain. What other Karma else is left to burn off?

[@midooley543]

@@epinephrin 😂🤦‍♂️ you’ve got no idea bud

[@epinephrin]

@@midooley543 In Buddhism the fetter referred to as "conceit" can indeed be termed "spiritual conceit," particularly in contexts discussing spiritual attainment and progress. This is a specific kind of conceit called *māna* in Pali. It involves a sense of superiority, inferiority, or equality based on one's perceived spiritual status compared to others. This is seen as a hindrance or fetter because it ties individuals to self-centered thinking and impedes true spiritual development. In many teachings, overcoming this spiritual conceit is crucial for advancing towards enlightenment.

[@midooley543]

@@epinephrin I never said I wasn’t conceited. I’m no arahant. But neither is Delson or Daniel Ingram or Frank Yang or any others of these interent ‘arahants’ that just want their egos stroked.

[@crystallizationculture]

Fantastic conversation, so much respect to these parties and their dialogue. I appreciate the dialogue around desire and I feel the question of Tibetan Buddhism is a bit sidestepped, but they see yidam practice (deity yoga) and partnered tantra as highest practice, engaged in free from fetters or to achieve freedom from fetters. I want to share that from my own subjective experience it is possible to have no tanha and plenty of eros. Maybe talking to female attainers like myself would help elucidate this perspective!

[@akashicturtle1827]

A great discussion. My own views are more in line with Delson's than Daniel's, in that I agree with the traditional sutta "10-fetter model" definitions. That said, I've found Daniel's observations very helpful, insofar as he offers some good warnings about how the dhamma is taught/practiced. Examples: Too much emphasis on the 3-characteristics can worsen "cluster-b" personality disorders in certain individuals; trying too hard to "chase chastity" can lead to repression and neurosis. I'm kinda skeptical about how much of this can really been studied scientifically, tbh. Dukkha (suffering) is something that ultimately can only be experienced subjectively, pretty much by definition.

[@guitarsfromhell77]

yooooooo this right here

[@TigerTzu]

I've always been intrigued by the "middle paths" because of how they seem to defy any real concrete defining at every turn. Most people seem to agree on the defining traits of stream entry and 4th path, but 2nd and 3rd path seem to be a never-ending battle-ground of what marks what. I guess it's similar to the cycles of life; birth, puberty, adulthood, and death. We can all more or less agree on what constitutes the moment of birth and the moment of death, but when exactly marks the beginning of puberty and when exactly adulthood starts are much fuzzier, even though these states clearly exist.

[@chadkline4268]

Interesting. I am listening a few times to see if I missed something, the details of the experience of these things slipped by me. Do you say that a small Cessation is Stream Entry, and a long one is Arahantship?

[@kevin-lancheros]

my mind has literally exploded watching this

[@tomtillman]

No, it didn't. It metaphorically exploded.

[@childfortruth]

Exceptional

[@ZWhitford]

In the off chance that it hasn't already been mentioned, I just have to commend you on the split-screen thumbnail choices for this one. Bravo. Future episode content? "...We'll hear her account of attending a laughing yoga class in what some are calling the 'Hogwart's of the Astral.' And finally, we ask the question: do the end awakening stages come with certain physical characteristics?"

[@ceruleandusk]

Not to sound too critical but I think for the next time and for the next guests it would be much better if the discussion was kept to a SINGLE TOPIC for example: only Jhanas OR only stream-entry OR only Arahantship. Guru Viking was changing the subjets to fit everything inside a 2-hour podcast, the result was both of them touched the subjects only superficially. I felt like they had more to say about each topic and could go more in depth.

[@biscottone3357]

The last Arahantship debate can be solve with this definitions imh. Pain isn't suffering. Suffering is relating with aversion to pain, resisting pain. What cease at 4th path is clinging, aversion and indifference, not pain! You will remain under the conditions of being human until death. Can ignore your social nature or your body need of care.

[@theunconditioned]

A great meeting of minds. Anyone who is wondering how a true arahat will behave in general--not necessarily about attainment experiences--please read the marks detailed in Majjhima Nikaya 112. Also please watch out for the words, 'seeing the links of dependent origination'.

[@cataliniosif6035]

There is literally no mention of dependent origination in the entire sutta. I think what you quote is just additional commentary (from Bhante V. most likely). Moreover, you won't find something that traslates as "seeing the links" or the concept of dep. orig. links anywherein the suttas. Can't speak for the commentaries on this. The expressions you will see is that someone sees things as dependently arisen, or will see dep. orig. in general.

[@theunconditioned]

@@cataliniosif6035 You are right, the MN112 Chabbisodhana Sutta, does not detail the links of dependent origination. This sutta is rather about a person who has become fully liberated Arahat; how they behave in general and how to assess if they really have become fully liberated by observing their attitudes towards phenomena and daily life. As to how the Buddha himself became the first Arahat, full details are available in the first few texts of the Great Section of the book IV Mahavagga of Vinaya Pitaka. Here the Buddha details precisely how he saw each link of dependent origination in the forward order (from the origination of ignorance, all the way to death, sorrow) and reverse order (from cessation of ignorance, all the way to cessation of death, sorrow, etc). Now we need to understand that anyone who practices his path also experiences the same i.e. we do not need a teacher to tell us how the links of dependent origination arise and how they cease; we see them directly (Note there are 4 grades of awakening and one sees the links more and more clearly successively and very closely upon full awakening). This experience is not a generalization of this formula to all daily experiences and to say that all phenomena are dependently originated; this is about seeing them exactly as they arise after emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling state. You may want to read MN 38, MN111, Bodhivagga of the Udana as well. Why rely on anyone else’s account when we have the words of the Buddha for us? Commentary texts and other teachers may be flawed, but at least we can have faith in those Pali texts that were passed from one generation to another orally and eventually got printed. No need to believe Bhante V. or anyone--if you practice correctly, you will see all these states too.

[@cataliniosif6035]

@@theunconditioned The account in the Vinaya chapter has the standard dep. orig. formula seen everywhere else. It says, He attends to dep. orig. with the grain (and then against the grain). After that, the formula is just presented as: "with X, Y" or "from X, Y". Again, the concept of a link that you see is missing completely. My point is that dep. orig. is not something you see directly, like dhammas. Dep. Origination is the structure that contains you. You can not step outside it and view it like a thing in front of you. It is something you understand about the dhammas you see. Also, by your model, Buddhas of the past saw less links. (Buddha Vipassi didn't have the long dep. orig. formulations that our Buddha provided) Yet the were still fully enlightened. Also, the number of "links" we have now varies in different suttas. Clearly, the links are not how perception works at a micro level, otherwise, previous Buddhas wouldn't be enlightened. The principle is about necessary conditions for other things that depend on them, and not specifically about liniar cause and effect. (Though it includes this as well) As an example: you having a car is what determines / conditions you being able to drive somewhere. You sitting down is a condition for getting up, but your sitting down does not cause you to get up. This is the principle that needs to be understood. You don't need to experience your nind turn off and then boot back up with a microscope.

[@theunconditioned]

@@cataliniosif6035 Your explanation of dependent origination is well understood. But we are not analyzing them from our perceptual tools. We are talking about seeing them directly. The exact term is 'ehipassiko', 'come and see' this as in MN 38 as being referred to the links of dependent origination. If you have experienced Jhanas and observed phenomena directly, you know they arise and cease. The links of dependent origination are not apart from these, you are not these. They just arise and cease. Even in current Buddha's context, some texts include 10 links, many 12. That's not critical. Interdependence is what we need to see directly. There is no need to debate if we have direct experience.

[@nothenryporter81]

There's such a huge contrast between these two. I like Daniel and I think he's sincere in his teachings, but his claim of being an arahant is just silly. For example, It's obvious from his tone of voice that he has an attachment to his political views, which is in stark contrast to Delson's measured, broader perspective.

[@midooley543]

Neither are arahants.

[@clintsmith9589]

Invite Shinzen for the next one.

[@donwilliams6698]

I just wanted to say from my humble point of view that the Buddha stated that the difference between a Buddha and an Arhat is that the Buddha knows things from end to end, where as the Arhat has sufficient knowledge. Due to this, for the benefits of teaching those going forward in these paths, I have to agree with Delson in regard to 3rd and 4th path, despite what evidence may appear to exist from the past experiences of Daniel.

[@deetissera1492]

An Arahant would still pick up contact feeling and perceptions from the 5 senses and therefore will be subjected to everything that a lay person will experience - except that they will not create new Karma. For example an Arahant will taste the good food and think or its very pleasant - but the buck stops there with no further Karma being created as he has erasicated thanha - is this a correct understanding for the discussion around touching a hot stove??

[@chadkline4268]

In regards to food, there is no care or indulgence in the flavor, but it is noticed without thought, unless thought is necessary. The senses stop triggering things. They end at contact. Autonomous reflexes can occur, even more efficiently+effectively. In the case of food, it is eaten to nourish the body, not because of hunger. But it is noticed that weakness occurs without enough food/nutrition. But not hunger. If the flavor is extreme, as in the case with extreme pain, there might be aversion. But I may not be qualified to say.

[@nabsnabster3488]

So hyped for this! ENCORE ENCORE xD lol

[@paulgemme6056]

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

[@chadkline4268]

We didn't get to hear what Arahants learn: 1) is there a sense of all that needs to be done, has been done? Describe it. 2) is there a sense of rounds of rebirth ending? Describe it. 3) describe what can be known about the eternity of an Arahant after death. 4) why do Vedanta teachers describe the enlightenment as a hours or days long fantasmagorical experience?

[@patmcd3578]

Just had a 10 day w/Delson. 1) yes. 2) yes. 1-3) He will often use the Suttas for reference. 4) I'm guessing they are referring to "cessation." Check that for relevance.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

I've heard Daniel say in another podcast that he can see how people would come to that conclusion on 2), but he has a bit of a different understanding of it. I can't remember what it's been a while. He sounds open to it as a possibility but he doesn't hold strictly to any ontology. Well these arahant aren't dead yet so how can they say what happens when they die? Lol. That's the answer I've heard a Zen master give as well. They can't truly know because they aren't dead yet. The Buddha remained silent on the question of where the enlightened go after death and likely for good reason. Best to find out ourself.

[@chadkline4268]

Well, if what you say is true, that we can't know what is beyond death for an arahant, then why bother attaining that state? Also, based upon my knowledge+experience, there are 2 big jumps to Cessation, which is death. But it is pure emptiness. A total disconnect from consciousness, which I define as a field of the nervous system wherein sensory input is radiated. Cessation/death is the vanquishing of the entire material universe into oblivion, even space+time. Only our presence remains. But that experience does not answer any of the questions I posed. And I am not really interested in an eternity of emptiness. I have been trying to find people that have gone beyond what I have and know more, for 8 years, in order to see if we can lay down a more definitive list of stages in the process, but have had zero luck in doing that. I haven't found a single person that makes claims that I can either agree with, or that will respond to these questions. Something is wrong with that. I strongly dislike the fact that the path is obscured by a lot of nonsense + BS. From my point of view, it is easy and fairly simple to layout in precise orderly steps+terms.

[@paulrodrigue2648]

The developmental wounding that results in a personality disorder creates a strong investment in a primitive sense of self. The definition of stream entry requires the individual to heal from that wounding in order to release that sense of self. Which is possible. It seems that DI conflates meditative attainments with awakening

[@David-fp3qg]

interesting...thanks

[@lllllBlader]

If a follow up of this meeting does occur, it would be very interesting to hear what Daniel and Delson describe as Nibbana. Daniel follows the visuddhimagga tradition which equates cessation of perception and feeling to Nibbana. This equation is not in the suttas. The suttas state nibbana to be cessation (nirodha) in the sense of it being the 3rd noble truth, cessation of dukkha. Delson (and his teacher Ven Vimalaramsi) do not subscribe to this view but instead state that the "experience" of Nibbana (the unconditioned element) is something that comes right after cessation, when one sees clearly the links of dependent origination and then totally lets go of craving. Delson repeatedly states this in his website, that nibbana and cessation are not the same thing. I would like to see how this view compares with Daniel's. (Delsons view seems to me to be the one that aligns most closely with the suttas)

[@akashicturtle1827]

Yeah, it's interesting how so many traditional theravadins are so emphatic about defining nirvana as the cessation of perception and feeling, when the suttas themselves seem to stop short of that claim.

[@Dharmapagan]

Nibbana is the complete destruction of the taints, the defilements, hinderances-that is, the craving that leads to suffering. The cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness is nothing more than a shutting down of brain and body activity so that awareness can view what happens when the process begins again. When the process (dependent orientation) is seen clearly, greed, hatred and delusion are dissolved and suffering is permanently eliminated. That’s Nibbana. Cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness is a means to an end, not the end itself. The whole path is a means to an end. No aspect of the path is itself the goal (Nibbana).

[@deepblack67]

@56 minute, exactly right, different people, different end results because of the engineering aspect, connected to natural disposition which is a spectrum, everything has its spectrum and "enlightenment" is no different.

[@danegraves1143]

As someone who recently realized self. I then said I was perfect and disregarded Sila. Now trying to gain it back haha.

[@blissfulpancake]

Speaking of comparisons - Delson is in a very simple room with a cheaper mic and webcam. Daniel is in a nicer room with tons of books, and high-quality mic, and a webcam. Steve is in a room with a mix of both!! These observations could give you an insight into their overall lifestyles :)

[@Alejandro388]

and that is also called: "Judging the book by it's cover"

[@karanvasudeva5424]

In Steve James' case, that's the simple canalboat he lives on.

[@tomtillman]

@@karanvasudeva5424 Thanks. I wondered about that strange room.

[@LAStars-sratS]

@@Alejandro388 no, that is awareness.

[@LAStars-sratS]

Daniel wants to imply his vast knowledge so he has a library behind him, typical marketing/branding tactic. He is all head and not Spirit.

[@joannekissick-jones6462]

Would some of the differences in personality (Neuro makeup) have to do with the complexity of sankharas from past lives, generational of body or environmental causes? I think it can be easy for one to enter a flow state of mind with spiritual bypassing. Jumping the first junas. Bypassing personal experiences unresolved. I believe by listening to the words of the buddha that eventually that person (mass of sankhanas) would have to return to a body and work through past sankharas that lead to this condition. It is a long path.. it is a lifetime path... maybe many lives.. There has to be an ability to authentically have a curiosity to "who am I"..

[@chadkline4268]

The socio/psychopathy distraction: socio/psychopathy is only a factor if it is not managed well. There is a difference between brain/physical empathy/compassion/loving-kindness rooted in emotion, and spiritual version which is rooted in conscience. Physical defects only affect the physical. A psychopath may not have emotion, but he does have a conscience. He can have a sense of this is right/wrong, proper/improper, wholesome/unwholesome ... A psychopath may have greater abilities to manipulate with self-mastery, but that will correspond with an increase in conscience; ie, he will also realize more and more that it is wrong/improper/unwholesome to manipulate for self-serving material gain, and that it is right/proper/wholesome to have a decent respect/regard for other beings. This does not require emotion.

[@stevebelzer4758]

These guys are BOTH recognized “ARHATS?” Holy shit !😂

[@michalsasma323]

Regarding psychopathy/sociopathy and the dharma practice: cases of those kinds of people being transformed through the dharma are known from both the suttas and the entire history of the buddhism. Angulimala was certainly a sociopath, for instance. Many mahasiddhas of the tantric tradition show behavior seemingly bordering on cruelty. Of course, we have a tendency to explain this away by telling ourselves that incentives of such behaviors stem from compassion, however counterintuitive it might seem. But yeah, it honestly begs the question. On the othere hand, buddhism talks about adepts going astray in their practice and becoming powerful rudras or demons. (Shugden would be one of these.) So perhaps there is some kind of conceptual distinction in buddhist canons between excentric boddhisattvas being just outrageously and uncompromisingly compassionate on one hand, and rudras, demons and adeps gone astray on the other. Which could be then coupled by modern neuroscientific research.

[@Alejandro388]

Thank you so much! Now, perhaps I'm a victim of my high expectations for the rare discussion between such Olympic-level meditators. To my view, there was a distinct lack of symmetry in the way Daniel and Delson formulated their responses. Most of Delson's responses sounded impersonal as if he was mostly quoting experts of his lineage or referring to suttas, rather his own experience of specific phenomena as he went along the path. And that makes his arguments quite unconvincing at times, especially those pertaining to the way arhats function in this world. Daniel, on the other hand, makes a point of presenting mostly his own experience and views arising from those personal experiences. Though he groks up large swaths of the talk-time, but his presentations hold much more value and detail that we as path-aspirants seek to hear from the masters who have gone all the way. I definitely looking forward for Daniel and Delson to meet 15years later down the road in perhaps much same format, and see how the discussion is different or similar then. Again, huge thanks to Viking for this very insightful interview!

[@lllllBlader]

Maybe Daniel has to explain himself a lot precisely because his experience does not fall in line with the traditional account. While Delson simply states his deal for what it is, without talking on and on about this and that.

[@Alejandro388]

@@lllllBlader the key word for me is "has" (as opposed to "has not"), you came here on the show to share something with others, so you go ahead and do just that. If we want to know the theory or enlightenment stories of other great meditators, we can look it up in the numerous books etc. As for Daniel's experience not falling in line, I get the opposite, he's experience as a Theravadan as it gets, the transition form 3rd path to 4th path was so textbook that event U Pandita Jurior has exclaimed when he has heard it describe. Where is does diverge from the traditional viewpoints is the issue of Arhats having (vs not having) emotions and usual human psychological aspects. The evidence that I've been gathering so far points to the former, that after awakening the psychological traits do remain, and even get amplified in some instances. Arhants do have lingering psychological issues that carry over from before-awakened period. Examples are: Shizen Young (he had to undergo therapy on his habit of procrastination which was hurting his students), Kenneth Folk - also undergone psychoteraphy after his 4th path, Culadasa (John Yates) - one of his students did a diagnosis on him and it turned out that the issue was very real and his enlightenment experiences were masking it (as one becomes ever more mellow in character). Now Danial, appears to not have any treatable psychological problems after his awakening, but his account of witnessing human emotions after full awakening, even though in a very different light, still points to the trait that human psychology is still in effect even after awakening. Purely subjectively, I do not buy the lingering myth that awakened person have to be posses a complete perfection of mind faculties, awkining is not becomeing perfect (as many yogic tradition would like us to believe), but rather awakening and finally seeing our very nature, always all the time and completly, rather than being perfectly tranquil you-can-kill-me-now-i-don-care frankenbeing

[@johnpienta4200]

@@Alejandro388 I love the way Michael Taft refers to it on his podcast. It is as if people expect Enlightenment to turn you into this enlightened version of a bliss ninny.

[@JonasAnandaKristiansson]

Detta är the real deal!

[@Lizarus.un-sane]

@32:00 … it’s not that it advances the nature of the psychopathy but accessing these things could essentially provide powerful tools for strategies of manipulation toward individual gain.. it seems naive to think that recognizing the contrived self automatically removes the desire for status.. it IS scary to consider and always makes me think of Lex Luther or similar fictional villains.

[@johnpienta4200]

31:50 "A brighter minded, more aware tiger is probably a better hunter." Daniel Ingram. Chills.

[@LAStars-sratS]

It is not about the mind for a tiger, it is undefinable instincts. Daniel is all head and not Spirit hence he would view it as such; he gives himself away with that statement and he was very smugly pleased with himself.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

​@@LAStars-sratS I think he's making an excellent point personally.

[@OfficialGOD]

1:38:30 you said you will bring them back here

[@deepblack67]

An interesting discussion would be what is the Metaphysics involved here, this is not the physicalism of science.

[@krenx]

Daniel Ingram is not an Arahant in the buddhist context. He has created his own definition of it. It is important he recognizes this soon. It would be better he use a different word or definition to describe his attainments. But many practitioners in the past have made this mistake before, it is not a new phenomenon. Some realize their mistakes and correct themselves, and some don't.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

He does recognize it, maybe you should listen to more of his stuff. He talks about this a lot and mentions that redefining arhatship is a normal thing in Buddhism. It's not a mistake, sorry you feel that way.

[@deepblack67]

Don't think strictly of eradication as much as Control, Mastery, and Knowledge.

[@looklikemyles]

Someone make an online personality quiz for aversive lustful etc. types that will suggest the appropriate practice

[@edward6768]

I agree with Delson regarding the question; Can attainment of upper meditative levels make a sociopath more sociopathic? As we see through the conceptual obscurations of our conceptual mind to the pure light of our Awareness, we become more and more steeped in compassion and empathy. Compassion (which is not the best translation) or non-dual Love is inseparable from pure Awareness.

[@chadkline4268]

There is confusion because the spirit has no feeling. It is the material body+mind that has feeling, empathy/compassion, and psychopathy. But the spirit does have conscience, a non-brain knowing of proper/improper, right/wrong. So, a psychopath may increase in manipulative abilities with greater self-mastery, but it will correlate with an increase in conscience as well. They will know their manipulations for material gain are more and more improper/wrong, even if such abilities increase.

[@edward6768]

@@chadkline4268 Can you be more precise as to what you mean by spirit, compassion and feeling?

[@chadkline4268]

@@edward6768 spirit = self = life = presence = sense of 'i am here'. That is what binds and unbinds to flesh, to consciousness (a field of the nervous system wherein sensory input is radiated). The spirit is awareness+conscience+power of intent. It is zero dimensional and outside of spacetime. Eternal. Compassion may be a result of conscience, because we know it is proper/right to do something, or improper/wrong to do something. Or compassion may be the result of mind/emotion/feeling, where we do or not do something because we are moved by sensory input, an emotion, consciousness. Feeling is a troublesome word that may mean touch, a bodily sensation, a mental sense, an emotion, or a level of well-being.

[@chadkline4268]

@@edward6768 if you understand, then you see why virtue (conscience) + concentration (intent) are essential elements of training. And also why a creature must bind a spirit at birth: flesh cannot function without awareness to read consciousness, conscience to process what is read, and intent to optionally write back to consciousness to induce thought or muscle movement. Somewhere in evolution, there must be a creature with a primitive nervous system that can live with or without binding a spirit, but survival of the fittest decided that creatures with a spirit mediating I/O are superior to biological machines with hardwired I/O such as bacteria. So nature becomes very effective at capturing ignorant spirits at birth with an offering of consciousness, and spirits with sensual intents bind instantly to them like magnets. It is totally impossible for chemicals to create awareness, conscience, and intent. It's an absurd and stupid notion.

[@edward6768]

@@chadkline4268 Chad you're much more of a scholar than I. So I'll make it simple. If someone is a highly realized being or perhaps even enlightened then they are more aligned with their true nature, the ground of being, pure awareness. And this is permeated or should I say inseparable from boundless limitless compassion. I prefer the word Bodhicitta because it is not conceptual. So when Daniel claims that sociopaths can attain these high states of awareness yet still be sociopaths I say no, that's not possible. Or, maybe I don't understand what the stream enterer or Jnana's are. I am familiar with the Tibetan Buddhist path which uses the Bhumi's (Bodhisattva levels) By the way, I never said that chemicals create awareness. So not sure why you're bringing that into it.

[@ZWhitford]

Wow, there are a lot of Arahants in these comments!

[@TigerTzu]

Well that was a tremendous episode. In regards to arhats committing suicide, I wonder if it is possible on the grounds of a lack of attachment to life, as opposed to an aversion to feeling pain. There's something to be said about having compassion for the body. Perhaps in light of a chronic/terminal illness for which the body has no hope of recovery, paired with a lack of attachment to life, could lead an arhat to conclude that suicide is the way to go as a sort of mercy on a struggling body. I could also see some social justifications for this; perhaps there was no sense of suffering, but nonetheless the pain of the body made performing one's duties (teaching or otherwise) impossible, and rather than letting the body decay to the point of being a burden on others, an arhat may conclude that suicide may be the least imposing option they have.

[@deetissera1492]

A very interesting discussion- thank you to Steve Delson and Graham Just a note re Arahant committing suicide : As an Arahant creates no new karma for any actions he does he is perhaps in a position to end his bodily suffering- at the same time an Arahant will still have past Karma that he needs to spend before his parinibbana and therefore he can be subjected to bodily suffering ! I guess as there are no consequences to an Arahant committing suicide some may choose to end their physical life. However if a lay person tries to commit suicide his intentions will be ‘aversion’ and therefore will create so much bad Karma that he will be born in hell realms for long time to come!

[@deetissera1492]

Sorry it should be Daniel rather than Graham!

[@chadkline4268]

It's kind of a bad question, because it really doesn't matter what an Arahant does with their life.

[@chadkline4268]

I think the good point is that if you have any chance of developing, you should use it. But if you really need to move on, you should do it yourself, and not involve others.

[@Kevtron257]

I feel like there was a missed opportunity here to elucidate a definition on craving. Delson elsewgere has mentioned "chocolate cake" and maybe im misremembering this but , he can recognize a pleasurable sense experience but he has no "craving" in the way we would say someone with morbid obrsity and who eats emotionally might. So in that context , daniel ingram the householder with a wife and sex life , having a human experience (the urge for sex) and following through isn't a big deal. Likr id want to here daniels take on a qualatative difference before and after third attainment. Because him being able to enjoy sex doesnt mean hr hasnt attained in the way I understand the model. Does he "crave" sex in a way where it creates internal suffering when he cant have it? Or is it "this is nice when I can but I could take it or leave it"

[@deepblack67]

1:03:00 critique, Yes. I ask, why do you see this experience as impure or low, rather than complex. So too simplistic. yes. For me enlightenment is absolutely the opposite, in seeking beauty, love, rapture, bliss, creation, nature. Entering the Stream to me means Oneness with the lived, with Universe, with the Song Line, with the Steam, a Lover and a Beloved. Attachment cessation vs Giving and Loving Kindness.

[@aaronmichaelseckman]

as a product of evolution human attainments are also environmental attainments as the species is fitted to the environment and not a blank slate/immaculate conception.

[@deepblack67]

Awakened sociopathology is real and one reason to not grant access to higher knowledge too freely. Not saying, don't spread these techniques, but discernment should be made that acts as a better guide. This problem has been seen in Mindfulness practices, garbage in, garbage out. Why? Because much of what we are talking about is simply inner engineering and an improved manual for a human being, which has nothing to do with taking part in society, loving kindness or such. I would point to the Sith in Star Wars and Martial Arts Assassins as an example. What are your morals? Why does stream entry mean you are not a being of Power? Nature has its Shadow side, so does enlightenment.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

Around 2:04:00 daniel asks an extremely important question that is the elepant in the room about if Delson has had the limits of his arahatship emotional perfection reached in terms of dangerous situations or anything, and Delson doesnt respond to that. He talks generally and brings it back to it would be interesting for there to be studies on this. Delson, YOU are the one making such claims, so please aswer it.

[@AgeofColossus]

Does Delson Armstrong claim anywhere that he is an arahant? I know he does seem to imply that, but i haven't heard him explicitly making the proclamation, or did I miss it? EDIT: To answer my own question, Delson Armstrong has indeed claimed arahantship here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKjMq4Sje8prbdE at the portion: 1:07:14 - Attaining Stream Entry and the other path attainments. What remains unanswered, is that B. Vimalaramsi had in another Guru Viking interview here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJyqe2qYor6mjdk at 1:12:37 confirmed that he had no student who had gone beyond the anagami level - Can anyone explain why both of them made contradictory statements?

[@nothenryporter81]

From what I've seen of Delson I'm almost certain he hasn't claimed such a thing - and he's very open and matter-of-fact about his specific attainments. I recently re-read David Johnson's book on TWIM and my recollection is that they hold an extremely conservative view of arahant-ship - such that they can't even confirm whether or not their are any known arahants currently living (but it's very possible that I'm mis-remembering that detail or confusing it with something else I read). Anyway, isn't one of the key characteristics of being an arahant that they don't go around claiming that they are an arahant?

[@AgeofColossus]

@@nothenryporter81 I know when I googled Delson’s first interview and the old thumbnail says “The Young Arahat” or something. Then it got replaced later on, but google still captured the old thumbnail. I think Delson’s claim is that he is at least Anagami?

[@earthy7898]

I had talked to Delson's teacher - Bhante Vimalaramsi about a month before Delson's first interview came out. Bhante claimed that he had never met an arahat. Then Bhante went on to speak about how he loved meeting with his students who were anagamis, they were always giggling and laughing happily and so on. At that time, Delson recently stayed with Bhante so I think Bhante refered to Delson as the anagami student. In fact, I am pretty sure he was talking about Delson.

[@patmcd3578]

On the issue of a sociopath attaining stream entry, this does seem super-fascinating and worth folliw-up. From here, begs the question, if one lacks guilt and remorse, how can we be sure they are being honest/truthful re: experiences. Perhaps, this is "good" fabrication on their part??

[@zelareka]

Maybe Daniel could just practice TWIN and see if he can reach a more complete liberation that way

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

I think TWIM is overhyped personally. Unless you take it VERY seriously, in which case pretty much any practice will produce great results with that dedication. It works great if you need to be more balanced in the direction of calm.

[@dimopetrov4982]

Let me say it with one sentence,...If you don't preserve your sexual energy it's impossible to open your energy channels and chakras, that means you never gonna achieve Razor sharp Mindfulness (Knowingness). You have to see clearly every single thought popping in your head to be able to stop lust( craving for sex) Even then ,you have to investigate how single thought triggers feelings, emotions and actions. Without that never gonna reach any awakening. Unfortunately most of the people doing sex and then meditate,.. this like a hamster wheel, spinning in circle in vain. Thank you for your videos!

[@chadkline4268]

It's sensual intents/desires/volitions that bind, so it's simply impossible to declare freedom from rebirth with sexual desires. It just makes no sense.

[@chadkline4268]

I would hope they are totally incompatible. I don't buy a lot of what Ingram says, and I am a little reserved on Armstrong, but sense a lot less nonsense from him. I would like to see Steve ensure some valid diction and practical guidance and well-defined stages/experiences so that this is not just another interview with all kinds of terms thrown around in regards to haphazard strategies or paths that lead to vague and illusory outcomes. I would appreciate getting them to relate more of the structure in the work that is done to attain goals, goals that have a much greater definitive clarity. I have little patience for spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Recently, I have come to the conclusion that what western teachers mean by awakening is simple self-awareness and sanity, which is only selling because a majority of the population is clinically insane. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the stages of enlightenment taught by the Buddha, whether claimed or not. Nothing to do with the Noble 8-fold path. None/few of these western teachers have the Noble 8-fold path as a central aspect of their teachings, and the Buddha considered all such teachings as empty. None of them emphasize the extraordinary powers of concentration that are required to break into the highest stages of jhana, or the virtue required to obtain the grace with which attainments are bestowed. I think all this results in teachings that do far more harm than good. They are deceptive, and they create false realities, and make true teachings and instruction even more difficult to bring forth. It seems as if their goal is to make every nitwit on earth feel and think they are a Buddha.

[@VeritableVagabond]

The Visuddhimagga's reach is far and wide. Although there is the 8 fold path in that too. I'd say you're right. The samadhi part of the 8 fold path is beloved. There's a strong emphasis on sitting meditation that in my view is a bit unbalanced.

[@AngelRPuente]

Hear! Hear!

[@anecdotal_mattybs5435]

I get the feeling you’d (or do) like bikkhu analayo

[@chadkline4268]

So, I still have many questions, and appreciate responses, but in the meantime, I used Google and typed 'am I enlightened' ... I don't think I am, but based on the results of this interview, I thought I'd check anyway ... Test1 Congratulations! While there is much debate among yogis about what enlightenment may truly 'look' like, there's no doubt that you've found your own inner light and reached a state of deep understanding. Honor the hard work and dedication that has brought you to where you are now by maintaining your disciplined yoga and meditation practice. Though your inner light is shining bright, remember that a yogi's work is never done. There is always more knowledge, growth, and depth to be achieved.

[@chadkline4268]

@@anecdotal_mattybs5435 thank you, I have only read his criticism of Ingram, but I will look for more. I am somewhat frustrated by the lack of detail when describing meditative states; eg, I can easily describe the SNPNNP and Cessation, 8th+9th jhanas, fairly simply and clearly so that it would be unmistakable. But I would not say I am authoritive because I never hear these things described well by others, so I have no gauge for my experiences. Similarly with the stages of enlightenment. I don't know where I am, and if I ever had stream entry, I missed it. But I am 99.99% certain of Cessation, but it is not allowable to know Cessation before stream entry. My current, and maybe wrong, idea is Cessation is Stream Entry. I was hoping to gain clarity from this interview, but did not. If anyone might be able to help me with my confusion/ignorance, I'd appreciate it.

[@keshinspirituality5947]

I'll volunteer for test.

[@onelove7069]

A stream enterer is one who will reach arantship within seven rebirths, and an arhant one who will not be reborn again. There cannot be any craving or aversion left , so one cannot be reborn . Again Its not a measure of meditative skillfullness. Meditation is only a tool that helps on the path, but all three shika, samadhi, and panna need to be perfected. Its not automatic that with certain concentraion skills one will get shila, although of course they do all help eachother

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

Daniel has been at the end of the insight path for around 17 years now and he still has aversion and craving. As with many other arahats. Maybe the old texts shouldn't be taken too literally as perfected.

[@onelove7069]

@@user-fg3fv9hl3b i think we should be cautious in being too quick to not believe the texts. If one hasnt overcome craving and aversion then one isnt an arahant.. This is the defenition. Yes a very hard task but it is important to know that it is possible and there are people in this world alive now who have achieved this. We should not rest until we have reached the final goal, for our own sake. If we still have craving and aversion, we still have suffering, rebirth etc etc