Ep167: Maps to Enlightenment - Michael Taft 2

Michael Taft is a meditation teacher, author, and host of the ‘Deconstructing Yourself’ podcast.
In this episode, Michael reveals why he dislikes maps of meditation, and why he believes the Progress of Insight, a widely taught meditation map in Theravada Buddhism, causes more problems than it solves.
Michael also discusses his points of agreement and disagreement with the Buddhist four path model, how he defines and teaches stream entry, the common traps on the way to enlightenment, how to cut through spiritual ego, and why Michael questions if becoming an arhat is actually good for anybody.
Michael goes on to explain his own meditation map, based on the teachings of Shinzen Young, and shares his takes on emptiness, jhana, fire kasina, and how life changes after awakening.
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www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep...
Also available on KZbin, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
00:57 - Cons of meditation maps
06:06 - Why the Progress of Insight map causes more problems than it solves
09:50 - Disagreement with Daniel Ingram
10:37 - Controversy of claiming Arhatship
14:15 - Teaching towards stream entry
15:06 - Defining stream entry
18:16 - Do meditators really want stream entry?
20:17 - Where Michael diverges from the 4-path model
22:42 - different approaches to spiritual practice
23:24 - What changes after enlightenment?
29:01 - Stress tolerance of enlightenment
30:09 - Michael’s perceptive
31:16 - Dangers on the way to stream entry
36:29 - Post-stream entry pitfalls
37:54 - Spiritual ego trips
38:35 - How Michael slices through spiritual ego
39:39 - Michael’s own map of vipassana
45:35 - The failure mode of high concentration
48:05 - Differences between low concentration and insight into emptiness
51:05 - The problem with cessation
52:47 - Emptiness of self and other
54:37 - Pointing to the self
56:02 - When Michael’s students achieve stream entry
57:02 - Welcome to the club
57:41 - Sutra vs Mahamudra
58:53 - Running the map backwards
01:01:21 - Emptiness and form
01:05:07 - The big temptation of emptiness and bliss
01:08:35 - Why leave emptiness?
01:13:10 - Vipassana vs vipasyana
01:15:41 - Quick fire round
01:16:13 - Wet of dry vipassana?
01:16:39 - Hard or soft jhana?
01:17:22 - Breath or fire kasina?
01:18:21 - BIT or SHF?
01:19:09 - Shinzen Young’s evolution
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Previous episode with Michael Taft:
- www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep...
To find out more about Michael Taft, visit:
- deconstructingyourself.com/
For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James

[@a.s2118]

I looove Michael Taft! He feels super safe and secure to me and listening to him is totally reassuring as I go through frightening experiences during my meditation atm. Like emptiness doesn't sound scary anymore. 🙏🏼

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

He feels safe is a great way to put it!

[@jazn271]

I feel the same

[@AngelRPuente]

Great interview! Michael is one of my favorite teachers. Because, talking about returning to the marketplace, there's no shortage of people spouting Buddhist jargon and muddying the water. Level headed teachers are scarse. The bottom line of practice is simple, a better life. Since I first came in contact with Michael's (eclectic?) teachings I found he hits all the right buttons. And he's gotten even better at his messaging as time has passed. I'm glad that we can learn from him as he answers your pertinent questions, Steve.

[@thomasdelarosa6121]

Thanks for interviewing Michael again! The first one was one of my favorites, and it's also great to go deeper and hear more and more about his perspective and healthy distancing. So much info to not grasp but appreciate!

[@user-ob2nv8pp6f]

Michael, this has been such an education and inspiration to me, especially your 4-part path that, after experiencing emptiness, continues with re-engagement with the world. I have been doing your one-hour non-dual meditations and it's been very helpful for me. Thank you.

[@alanarcher]

Very rational and down-to-earth teacher. I'd like to explore further why he thinks the traditional Arhat is not really a desirable condition, if at all possible. It seems to me that a permanent positive mental state, while at the same time seeing the world as it is, makes you transcendental and your life much easier.

[@Vogelruf]

Yeah, I don't know how greed, hatred, delusion, ignorance and so on make life better. It doesn't mean you have to be hollow/not have a personality

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

I think his point is that the level of extreme detachment described in the suttas is frightening from our ordinary perspective and doesn't sound desirable. I would disagree that it's a bad thing as why would full enlightenment be an ugly experience? I still totally get what he means though, it would be weird to actually be someone who experiences literally NO negative emotions in the slightest ever. Not that I would mind, I just agree that it seems alien and strange in some way

[@PeterKoperdan]

It's good to remember that Enlightenment is a matter of definition...

[@andrewharris9105]

One of best guests. Brilliant podcast. From a fellow Scot. Meditation is just the greatest.

[@nunoconde1344]

Great one ❤, it could be lovely to go for a third one! With more non-duality, tantra, and integration.

[@ingvarandersen]

thanks!

[@VictorShiryaev]

Liberation ASMR in action :) Thanks, a great podcast!

[@fitalfa]

Beautiful conversation. Thank you both 🧘🏻‍♂️

[@baizhanghuaihai2298]

This was excellent. What a lovely guy. My dharma brother from another Great Mother lol.🙏

[@sirius_s2028]

Thank you! Sincerely. I needed to hear this. 🙏

[@spiritboxer]

I love Michael...a beautiful man...deep mind

[@astrocatcity]

I am new to The Guru Viking podcast and I am glad to have found it. I have been listening to Michael Taft’s podcast since the very first episode. It has helped me through some difficult times. I can’t exactly put my finger on it, but there was something that seemed “off” about this interview. I am grateful for both Steve and Michael’s willingness to share their experiences. I’m grateful to live in an age with an abundance of resources to support home practice. Thank you both for everything you do 🙏🏻

[@zachparade2791]

New-ish subscriber. Watched roughly a dozen interviews so far. I feel very fortunate to have found your work. I especially loved this interview that was very focused on understandings and practices. Thank you both for all you shared! 🙏✌️💛

[@jerry-mind-sky]

To prove his enlightenment Milarepa made print of his hand in rock !:)

[@alchemyst2000]

I thought I heard some Dan p. Brown when he was talking about coming back to the sacred world, the inseparable pair of groundless ground and liveliness. Wish you could have him on the show before he passed. I believe Michael had a great interview w him on his podcast. Michael is awesome I’d like to study w him.

[@poimandres]

”Teletubbies on ecstasy” - love it!

[@kartoffeldrucker]

oh my lord! I'm so excited just after hearing that into. Thanks man

[@atxchef4240]

Excellent interview. A great follow up would be to get Michael and Delson to come on together to discuss the potential pros or cons of Arahantship.

[@lucidmindrevolution]

Great episode! I'm familiar with Michael's work but your interview helped me understand him better, in a very inspiring way. I just happened to review mctb recently and Michael was really nailing it with his commentaries and expressing my own thoughts. That felt great. Thanks a lot for the interview! =D

[@LeftOfToday]

Perhaps if Michael ever returns, he could speak more about about how he works with those who have found things feeling flat after a heightened/stream entry experience.

[@a.s2118]

If one has stream entry, he knows how to handle viscicitudes, ups and downs because he's not attached anymore

[@LeftOfToday]

@@a.s2118 It's my understanding that each of the 4 paths towards enlightenment involve a phase of the 'dark night', which may be long or short in duration. I've even heard that the 3rd path is the hardest in part due to this factor. That would suggest that even later stages such as once and non-returner can still experience difficulties.

[@a.s2118]

@@LeftOfToday the dark night happens if you don't know how to handle the hindrances/defilement. Also, some teachers consider that the dark night is not a must. And I think Michael Taft is one of them. Only certain traditions that based themselves on the vishuddhimagga talk about the dukkha ñanas.

[@stevenbarnes6385]

I've asked Michael about "feeling flat". What he told me is that I was noticing emptiness. The solution is to "return back into form", which he talked about in this interview. What I don't know is how you do that, perhaps it is the topic of his class "Reversing the Stack". However, if you do his guided meditations, you might notice that he usually leads us into emptiness, and at some point will start describing the emptiness as having positive qualities: alive, awake, accepting of everything. That is essentially constructing a new, more positive view. He doesn't talk about "dark night" as being necessary, in fact he rejected the Progress of Insight map in the previous interview.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

​​​​@@a.s2118 and yet many people do go through dark nights, are liberated to some degree, and could use the help of a teacher to move past it faster than trying to handle it on their own. Just because some teachers, Michael included, don't believe in the dark night doesn't mean it is not real. I don't like your response because it implies the person hasn't reached a stage they personally feel certain of instead of handling the issue. I agree that people should be more doubtful of their attainments and give it time, but enough times it is real and enough of the time they are going through a dark night.

[@TheWizard10008]

This was EXCELLENT!!!

[@Samuell8]

Thank you for this

[@Major_Grubert]

Great talk!

[@zeeshanzeeshan1149]

That clarified a lot of stuff.

[@richlord3175]

Namaste, is the Miles Neals still available, cheers

[@GuruViking]

Yes, Episode 69: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYjHon93Yq-onpo

[@DhammaWanderer]

@@GuruViking do you ever interview lesser known Dhamma teachers?

[@Hermit_mouse]

I wonder if every meditator’s personal path is their own map and therefore if you get lost in maps, that’s just your map

[@PeterKoperdan]

There is definitely a lot of universality in human experience...

[@thomascreedon870]

There's a deep misunderstanding of the metaphysics of mind that is perculating through the world. Taft calls it a 'transcendent' ideal to be fully enlightened, and for sure it isn't for everyone, but its a full requirement of the metaphysics of existence to balance the equation. Without totally renounced selflessness in epicentres like true monks and monastries like Ajahn Brahm or Pau Auk for example, the world would be in complete disorder. Everything comes with pros and cons, being a heroin addict comes with upsides and downsides, being a completely enlightened being comes with upsides and downsides from a relative perspective.

[@chase1671]

How do you know?

[@TheTarutau]

19 m. I was there at 7. Stream entry is not what I thought it was. I realized I was wrestling with the expectations of loved ones and society and I suspended belief until I saw for myself how a self is made. I remember as a kid thinking that means I have to steal personalities and try them out like clothes. Until I almost made a self. But then I read carlos and realized I could deconstruct it before it solidified. That way when I come out can't no guru be like but have you done this. Oh I've done alot. But yeah traditions suck because their no longer relevant to the present moment. I agree with you it's not desirable. Could one condition the mind in such a way yes. But conditioning has a price they would have to cut themselves off from will. No more useful then a household cat. Cute but I would have preferred liberation lead to where it led me. Utility. Anger joy sadness happiness they still exist. They are me. But I can through mindful awareness choose not to be tangled by it. That means I don't do as it tells me. Like the roommate I got that wanted to woop my ass when we first met. I stood my ground. But I made no move against him. Verbal or body. Just kept trying to explain to him that my body my choice and he was having a hard time with that. Eventually he calmed. Took 3 months but I dont act like others act and that always catches the eye. Because it rings true to self over time. Integrity. And kindness. But also not religious so martial arts is a highly recommended skill. Then If they get good enough they can stop a fight through submission instead of through brute force. Path of least harm in defense of what matters most. As well as basic first aid and basic life support. First responder stuff. Two skills worth investing in defense and medicine. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGGYcn9vop2hZ6c I define liberation i think as shinzen does. The ability to increase fulfillment. The ability to reduce suffering. Sensorial clarity and knowing oneself at almost all levels. Utility through the acquisition of skillsets. The desire to enrich the lives of those around you what I like to call empathy. It's a cultivatable skill. Also it arises naturally as one begins to flourish one notices that others suffering stands in the way of elevating fulfillment given that there is a clock ticking. Without the realization of death i dont see it arising naturally. Since it might not matter as much to people as the afterlife does. My opinion of course. Biggest upset when I learned of others like me is none of them wants be a dad. Bunch of suckers they care more for the experience then for the life they could lead. Genetically speaking that means it's a negative. It hurts humanity. Not helps it. Fucking abstinence. They got scared of learning to deal with relationships. I mean shit it's like anything else. Dealing with pain. How do you learn about that. Well you go through it mindfully. Lol. Not that I can talk. Damn it tool to long to remember. Fucking amnesia. Ya got me good. Lmao. Hopefully I can remedy that mistake. kzbin.info/www/bejne/babZnop9abpqh6c 3004 i keep my distance in moments of stress I cut it short I'm moments of pleasure. For me it's not sacred. It's of utility. Especially in high stress situations my calm surprises me sometimes. But that calm keeps me on the razors edge of now so I can deal with now skillfully. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqauh5urith6g8U I've yet to hear a guru not feeding into others delusions. How complicated this becomes when one path is split in two. One dealing with real life. One dealing with make belief. While others exclaim I have gained insight into reality itself i sit here and go I just gained insight into one of my habits. I know how it got started. That's fucking awesome. That's a superpower. Occams razor. 2 complicates. There is just this. No experience overcomes that. That's when we learn to stand on our own legs. It's a choice. It's the difference between setting achievable goals and unachievable goals. Those around shinzen learned alot though. Ya closer then all the others I've seen. Sight sound touch. kzbin.info/www/bejne/amrXoXyDed5seKc 4652 it's called mush. Love that shit right there. Lol that's cutting edge. Why not treat it like working out. It's what ima suggest when I start a channel. Clean that shit of religion though cause deity yoga still works without deities. It's about picking the right archetype or the right set of archetypes to cycle through. Like for me the first archetype was bruce Lee Roy from the last dragon. Followed by socrates. Then ryu. Ya know I would like to have those qualities. And then just straight steal it. I'm a damn thief. But I was introduced to goku my 4th archetype. Think i was ten by then. learned he was also a thief later. No ring on my head. But open the palm and out rise mountains. Stole that too. kzbin.info/www/bejne/d2iXaqeMh65_g6s 56m. For me it arose naturally. Skill set acquisition. So because I could enter such states early as a kid I could learn from my activities more. Like martial arts or video games drawing talking to people talking to girls talking to friends philosophy math anatomy and physiology genetics all moments that when met with a high degree of concentration clarity and equanimity become easier to learn. So as a kid I learned enough so that when I forgot who I was and entered the military they automatically took me out of being meant to be a boatswains mate to being a hospital corpsman. And just off intuition no studying but I did pay close attention to what the teachers said. It's like them saying it was enough to awaken my memories of that subject. Got me an associates and since I didn't know at the time what was going on I felt like a jedi using the force. Video games fighting talking to people and stuff all came naturally but i didnt know from qhere it came is all. Now I know I trained hard. Made sure I was conditioned before I meditated. Smart kid that one. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oni7coxng9Bre8U Made me me. You should have seen japan. Still using the force didn't know who I was before 18 but... it's japan. In bootcamp the drill instructors would bring me big macs because of my abilities. But Japan was where I pushed it. Club owners bar owners it's funny how many people notice a liberated individual and how they tend to gravitate towards them. Like a magnet. Good times good times. Lol. The apprentice became a master. kzbin.info/www/bejne/npCnZIl8m82pqZY 1:07m. It's their core framework. The one distilled to them through their youth until people learn better the issue will persist. It's why I was willing at 15 to test out my theory. Personally I think a framework that deals only with the real world will work best. Since I did not have to meditate to be mindful to a high degree like past known meditators. If parents could adequately describe how to go about constructing a self through the senses then it would alleviate many issues. We are centuries if not millenia away from such an occurance. Here I'm talking liberation that only deals with real not liberation that deals in imaginary. So no celibate monks. Just a normal person being honest about what life is like. Not what we wish it was like.

[@user-fg3fv9hl3b]

This is a super confusing comment. What are you trying to say?

[@tenzinthomasmasami]

How about developing bodhicitta, Michael? How about noticing other people's suffering when you make some progress on the path rather than creating just a bunch of little selfish meditators, huh? What about caring about other dreamlike sentient beings rather than just one's own happy state?

[@PeterKoperdan]

Isn't guiding others on the Part caring?

[@ishaburger9846]

The. Man has obviously not understood the word " a map ". It does not tell you what to do. It tells you only what is likely to come. So not interesting for me

[@PeterKoperdan]

It tells you where to go which implies what to do next...