Episode 10: The Dominant 7th Diminished Scale ( Barry Harris )

Barry Harris teaches us to use the 4 scales of chords: the Minor 6th diminished, the Major 6th diminished, the Dominant 7th diminished, and the Dominant 7th flat 5 diminished. We still have not yet looked at the dominant 7th diminished, so that will be the focus of this episode.
In my personal practice, I put off spending time with this scale for a while. I thought it was a bit square (I really didn't understand it very well). As I've become more familiar with it, it's come to be one of my favorite scales to explore. After this episode, we will continue to explore how this scale fits into the broader picture with all the other scales we've discussed.
Please keep the comments coming, and share anything that might add to the discussion. Barry Harris is one of the most important musical thinkers alive today, and I am really enjoying exploring these concepts with all of you. It takes some effort to get into all the beautiful things, but it really is worth it
Here is the link for the PDFs for this episode (and every) episode:
www.thomasechols.com/scores
***The Labyrinth of Limitations app, for exploring all of these concepts in a fun, educational, and inspiring way, can be found here:
www.thomasechols.com/labyrinth
Patreon:
/ labyrinthoflimitations
If you would like to contact me about online lessons, you can email me at [e-mail]
Take care,
Tom

[@thingsivelearnedfrombarryh2616]

Wow. You have cracked the code on Barry's scales of chords. The best understanding and execution I've ever seen or heard on our instrument. Every guitar player should be working on these scales from day 1. Thank you my brother for sharing all this beautiful stuff. Practice time.

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

Thank you, my friend! These scales are so endless in their implications. It's amazing that Barry has shown us all of this. So fun working through it with you

[@fabriziocolonna73]

I really appreciate that this valuable channel has no advertisement.

[@cmb_cworld]

thanks tom!

[@evanlebow-wolf6035]

Amazing as always. Love the example of all the different scales of chords. Can’t wait for scale of scales!

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

Thanks Evan! Scale of scales is coming soon!

[@Faz99Master]

I love your approach. Extremely useful!

[@j.s.m.5351]

Choro de Saudade, brilliant piece! That massive stretch required months of practice for me to get.

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

It’s such a beautiful work. One of my faves from barrios. Mazurka Appasionata, la catedral, the waltzes, una limosna are all personal faves as well. So many great gifts for the guitar from barrios

[@j.s.m.5351]

@@TheLabyrinthofLimitations Sueño en la Floresta! Amazing composer

[@donmilland7606]

good stuff!

[@kevinguthrie4642]

I keep hearing the bridge to Old Man River, in this one.

[@donmilland7606]

As indicated, I ordered some of your pdfs and downloaded your software (that generate all these chord passing ideas). I’m looking forward to going through with them. If you are not a genius, you are pretty damn close to it!!!!

[@DannyVDub]

Been playing around in Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata. I noticed something. When he modulates to the C maj (this is right after the resolution to E maj, which then transforms to E min, walking down to a G7/D). He immediately follows it with the diminished you would normally associate with C maj (Bdim7). He then follows the diminished with an F#7/A#. Essentially going to the tritone within the family, but making it dominant. It may be a stretch, but it feels like that pair of chords, Bdim and F#7, could be seen as a short instance of the dominant diminished scale. Perhaps, in All the Things You Are, we can apply a similar concept to the end of the first phrase. Right where Db^ modulates to G7, we’re essentially doing the same thing - moving to the tritone in the family, but making it dominant 7. So we interject with Cdim after the Db and try a quote from Beethoven. We could even play the G7 in 1st inversion to keep the flavor. We could then spring board form there and see how far we can take it with borrowing or using another motif. It’s amazing how well Barry’s concepts work in classical music, btw.

[@thyggs]

Truly love these videos. Is there any way we can have the vocal mic a few notches louder by any chance?

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

Thanks for the feedback. I've been working on this issue, but seems it's not quite right yet. I'll experiment with some different mics and see what I can accomplish. Glad you like the channel!

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

In the meantime, the pdfs are annotated with a summary discussion;)

[@jameserenberger3425]

I think of the 7th Diminished Scale as Harmonic major overlaping Mixolydian b6. That gives you tons of 7th chords to substitute while comping.

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

I'm a strong believer that everything I'm talking about here is best thought of in the way that Barry taught it, which is how I share it. It takes some time getting used to but it's much more powerful and freeing that way. . .

[@jameserenberger3425]

@The Labyrinth of Limitations I appreciate the advice, man. Your channel is awesome. The classical terminology and the names of the chord shapes have been an adjustment, but Chris's channel and yours have changed the way I look at music. Barry was a genius. You guys have started a Renaissance like revival of his method. Keep going.

[@xxczerxx]

What's your view on using this concept for soloing? I never seemed to figure this out: Barry Harris' general concept of music theory is that the dominant is actually derived from a diminished with the root moved down a half step. So a C dim becomes B7 if we move that root down. Easy enough. Now, Barry Harris' chordal concept follows as you outline that you run a diminished a half step BELOW the root (not above) in order to make a nice resolution to the root... So if we want to use diminished concepts over a dominant, should we use the diminished a half step above or below the root of the dominant (or family of dominants)? I've been using the half step rules for about a year+ now but I notice when transcribing the greats....they were DEFINITELY not using rules. It is definitely a good tool in a pinch though. That duality of harmonic and melodic approach has always confused me a bit.

[@hsgs708]

Really incredible, what about if i have a major 6 note over a dominant chord which happen lot of time? How can i harmonize it since it's not in the scale? Thank you

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

One way is to play that note as a borrowed note ton the 6 on the 5 (or tritone’s minor). You could also play the 6 chord on the dominant, but playing through that scale doesn’t sound right to my ears (just hitting the chord and then moving it to the dominant 7 diminished when playing polyphony would be more to my liking)

[@GaryCainMusic]

i thought the Harris approach on a dominant 7 was to use the min6 dim off the V of the dominant chord (so over C7 use Gmin 6th dim)? Both seem to work.

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

Glad you asked, Gary! Barry teaches 4 scales of chords (the dominant 7th, dominant 7th flat 5, minor 6, and major 6 diminished scales. He teaches 3 of these for use over the V chord (everything but the major 6 dim). I think a lot of us who really love Barry's teaching are often chagrined to see how many videos there are out there that ignore this and focus only on the minor 6 substitution. On that note, don't forget that there are two minor 6 dim scales that you can use on any V chord, in addition to the "6 on the 5" that you mentioned, there is the "tritone's minor", which is a half step up from the V chord (but a 5th above that chord's tritone sub). To summarize, if D7 is your V chord, Barry Harris's approach is to use the D Dominant 7 Diminished scale, the D Dominant 7 flat 5 Diminished scale, the A minor 6 diminished scale, and the Eflat minor 6 diminished scale. He also teaches us to use the D Wholetone scale and the Octatonic that has D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B-C. That's 6 options that all have a slightly different color. When we familiarize ourselves with them, getting out ear around the different possibilities, we become more colorful players!

[@GaryCainMusic]

@@TheLabyrinthofLimitations awesome - thanks for all that detail! I haven't tried the b5 scale yet - might dig into that next. Cheers

[@TrevorWesleyOfficial]

Hey brother! Awesome. Question. I have all three Barry Harris Workshop dvds and they are great, but they don’t really touch on all of the different diminished scales you mentioned in a previous comment. Where can I find more of his teachings beyond those DVDs that teach each diminished scale? I appreciate it man. I am familiar with the 6dimin and also the dominant7 diminished but looking for the others. Thanks bro

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

He shows the 4 scales of chords in Volume 2 of the Workshop videos, and he has a wonderful zoom class on saturdays that you can sign up for on the barryharris.com site, so you could catch him talking about them there

[@BlueJeanes]

Hi. I used to be in your music theory class at ACC. I have a question about the dominant diminished scale. If I am building a D dominant diminished scale, I would have expected the diminished to come from the same family of dominants as D7, (from the Co7 family of dominants) but that diminished (C#) seems to come from either the B or Db diminished family of dominants. Am I to understand that t create the dominant diminished scale one must "borrow from the neighbors", or is the dominant diminished scale just another concept entirely outside of the family of dominants?

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

Hey there! There is confusion on a couple of points here. The most important being that the C# diminished 7 found inside a D7 diminished scale is NOT family with D7. This goes for all the scales of chords (D maj6, Dmin6, and D7b5 all have that same C# dim7). C#dim7 has dominant tension pulling it to D7. Family is about something else entirely. The diminished you start out referring to (Cº7, which i'll refer to as Ebº7) is a parent diminished to D7 (it's where D7 comes from). In other words, it expresses D7. To have the "on/off" duality effect that these scales facilitate, you need the diminished that definitely is not family. Hope that helps!

[@BlueJeanes]

@@TheLabyrinthofLimitations Yes, thank you! I think I was confused because while I did see that the diminished for D dominant diminished clearly didn't come from Ebo, I was thrown off by the fact that all of the m6 diminished scales built on the fifth of the Ebo dominants (Am6, Cm6, Gbm6, Ebm6), DO come from that Ebo diminished. So I thought, well, it stands to reason in that case that the dominant diminshed should come from that same family as well! So, it seems that I am missing quite a bit of information that is leading to my confusion.

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

@@BlueJeanes I think there is some confusion, but stay with it! I'm available for lessons if you want to go through it more:)

[@muchnoeizdelie4694]

+

[@taylorfusion]

Hi friend, thanks for the videos. Your on-screen graphic at 2:14 doesn’t quite jibe with what your playing, in terms of the actual demonstration chords. No b5’s yet in those heard examples. Also, fingering in the graphic at 4:13, second beat holy smokes I don’t think so! ... and again at 7:13 or and 9:00 min mark.You’re not playing any of those chords or fingerings so it’s really adding confusion to the point you’re trying to make, I feel.

[@TheLabyrinthofLimitations]

ah yes, good find! It's fixed in the pdf. Thanks for the headsup!