Episode 3: Alice Dreger on Sexuality, Truth, and Justice

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The human mind loves nothing more than to build mental boxes -- categories -- and put things into them, then refuse to accept it when something doesn't fit. Nowhere is this more clear than in the idea that there are men, and there are women, and that's it. Alice Dreger is an historian of science, specializing in intersexuality and the relationship between bodies and identities. She is also a successful activist, working to change the way that doctors deal with newborn children who are born intersex. We talk about human sexuality and a number of other hot-button topics, and ruminate on the challenges of being both an intellectual (devoted to truth) and an activist (seeking justice).
Alice Dreger received her Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of Science from Indiana University. She has worked as a faculty member at Michigan State University and Northwestern University. She has been a Guggenheim Fellow, and was the Founding Board Chair of the Intersex Society of North America. She is the author of a number of books, including Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and One Scholar's Search for Justice, and most recently The Talk: Helping Your Kids Navigate Sex in the Real World.

[@brianstevens3858]

You Rock Sean.

[@eladoz-cohen4851]

A Mindscape a day keeps the doctor away! :D

[@darrylcalder]

I was under the misunderstanding that you could simultaneously have a complete set of male and female genitals too. One of the many things I learned in this podcast.

[@ZachMatics]

I’ve been binging on all of your material lately. I wish I encountered a clear speaker / thinker like you when I was pursuing my physics degree.

[@jesserandall9549]

Alice Dreger! Thank you for all the work you have done for intersex people. I talked to you on the phone many years ago. For the record, my daughter's genitals were ruined by the surgery at birth and age 3 and now she is basically asexual. I didn't know how it would turn out for her for sure when I spoke with you. I only wish you and others would have been born earlier so I could have made an informed decision. It has been a very lonely road as a mom who had to remain secret about her child's condition and felt hated by both sides of the surgery issue. I was against the surgery that I had consented to as a new teenage mom, and because of that, I had other pro surgery moms angry with what I was saying and adult intersex people treating me like I was a horrible mother because the surgery had already been done. The truth can be hard. Thank you for caring.

[@EmissaryOfSmeagol]

After hearing the second half of this podcast, Alice totally sounds Intellectual Dark Web-by, except that her 'Intellectual Darkness' hasn't/wasn't popularized/distributed across the web. Otherwise, she definitely fits that mold.

[@Erowid13]

Hey, Sean! Happy as heck you’ve got a podcast going. Been a big fan for quite some time now.

[@ZacksMetalRiffs]

Sean Carroll and Steven Pinker together would be amazing.

[@seriouskaraoke879]

Sean and anybody would be amazing. You included.

[@ZacksMetalRiffs]

Thanks!

[@MetePurphy]

You get my thumbs up on this one

[@robotaholic]

The best thing I've ever seen Sean Carroll do is take on the fine-tuning argument and utterly destroy it in William Lane Craig's face.

[@olgaorange]

Another great one - thank you. And Alice Dreger is amazing!

[@Davidlee37101]

Hot button topics exist because some dare to say "i disagree "

[@MrGorobu]

This was interesting, but the wage gap comment annoyed me. Just 10 minutes' reading dismantles the idea.

[@tookie36]

Wage gap continues in her profession.

[@sorooshusa]

This topic is very ... whats the word im looking for ... polarizing. There are academics on both sides of the story and empirical data suggest both side of the same coin, which means the only logical conclusion is, quantum physics, meaning it really depends who is taking measurements and with respect to what. I will give you two sets of examples. I dislike the new generation feminism and think its cancerous and is pushing an agenda, a vendetta against men. The first way to look at this is to compare women's rights in the past compared to now and in the west compared to other unfortunate parts of the world. Women in Saudi do not have the right to show skin, operate a vehicle on public road, vote, inherit wealth, hold an official job, etc ... the list is long and for us Americans, Saudi is our number one by volume source of oil import. Our foreign policy with them is also super friendly because of that. Women in west are not only free, empowered, independent, and not oppressed, but they also have many advantages both tangible ones and intangible ones. They graduate from college at a higher rate than men and that is partially due to the fact that traditionally men are needed and expected to choose work over personal academic achievement for various reasons such as providing for elderly parents or having lost one or both parents and expected to provide for younger siblings. Although this would be true for a female if need be, it is more prevalent in/for men. I have many male friends who have had to drop out and enter the workforce just so that they can provide for their poor families. So I hope that we can agree that females are not oppressed in the western society. We have females in every single job title ever, almost including president, which i personally hoped Hilary would get it because republicans are objectively inferior. sorry not sorry. Second set of examples are the quality and quantity of the type of work each gender performs. studies show men are more interested in things and prone to make radical decisions when it comes to career choices. females are more interested in people which tends to not leave much room for expansion of frontiers in that category. Statistically speaking, more men die annually at job sites than women because they outnumber women by a huge margin in terms of the types of job they hold versus the danger levels of the said jobs. Men almost completely dominate construction, industrial, and warfare frontiers. The casualty rate among men are much much higher than women. suicide rate among men are higher than women despite the proclaimed sensitive nature of women. by the way these facts are opinion independent. These are statistical data. Also more men IN GENERAL AROUND THE WORLD are subject to rape than women but let me explain how. The statistics people here about on regular basis is only the portrayed rape/ sexual assault scenario exaggerated in the movies where a man attacks a women in a dark ally with sexual perversion in mind. strictly speaking to that measurement, sure, women may be at a higher exposure to that type of sexual assault however, if talking about almost 8 billion people around the world regardless of geographic location, or condition, more men are being sexually assaulted than women and the main contributor to this statistics are jails and prisons. You never hear about that statistics because it doesnt help the feminist agenda. Jordan Peterson, a clinical psychologists of 30 years practice at the university of Toronto, Canada has written at least 2 books and many many articles about this. It has been peer reviewed by academic scholars and is definition of "subject matter expert" with experimental data backing up his research. Sean, you should have him on the show and talk about the philosophy of science and today's society's problems and challenges. he is very articulate and is a great listener.

[@Davidlee37101]

As for the sport problem reguarding sex gender intersex etc maybe the answer is anyone can participate in any activity period, but those eho pursue opportunities to engage in those activities must qualify for said activities as per the people who develop teams

[@starshipenterprises4356]

another great podcast, and I love the jazz too :) keep being a public intellectual, your very good at it.

[@KeithCooper-Albuquerque]

Wow Sean! Another great podcast! Alice was a wonderful guest! I am definitely going to read her books! Thanks so much for informing us about these wonderful people!

[@tobyw9573]

Are there any hereditary factors in sex/gender/sexuality anomalies, etc.? It appears not. Great and needed discussion! Thanks!

[@coolmofo123]

So is the answer to let any human compete in any sports event and let the best person win? Get rid of the male/female dividing line completely? Honest question, are there any women that could win any sports event under that mindset?

[@BrunoCabralAdv]

You should interview Dr. Hal Puthoff. I would be amazing to see you both discussing having so different ideas of science and physics.

[@dmarsub]

22:40 i think you will talk about this soon. But weight classes is a very successful cocept. Allow me to make an absurd statement: maybe wen can substract certain fat tissue that is more prominant in female hormoned people in certain areas.

[@MG53v8]

Some people are born with 6 fingers

[@thunkjunk]

Some people want an arm or a leg amputated because their self identity dictates that limb doesn't belong.

[@vaultsjan]

45:30 That is what scholars-intellectuals (whether they 'belong' or not to IDW) should do on the Internet. Discuss, argue, investigate.

[@fahmidayeasmin4780]

Oh my god, I was laughing out loud, after listening this and revisiting those pictures at the Bari Weiss op-ed, those are silly :-D

[@paulcorrado]

Just want to leave a comment saying I am excited for your podcast and perspective. Thanks for the hard work you put into these interviews

[@maasawdreamt8521]

Very happy I found you Sean!!! I look forward to listening to all of your recorded podcasts!!

[@theantiantichrist]

I'm not going to complain about the frequency... Make two a day, please!

[@Dirtgut]

Really love the podcast so far. Can you do an entire phil of science/social science episode?

[@chrisrecord5625]

Interesting discussion. I am a supporter of Taylor Mason. I am surprised Alice did not know half of the IDW. Also, startled, if she feels Bret Weinstein, his wife and other academic exiles really chose to leave their positions, willingly. Camille Paglia and IDW members would have some distinctive ideas, yet many would line up nicely with Alice's. (For physics sake, I hope her husband's name is Bob)

[@chrisrecord5625]

The Michael Bailey discussion highlights the impetus for the IDW (just like Alice's paper). If certain people decide they dislike your opinion they will just defame and hector you so, regardless of your real self, a false one is created that is easier to attack.

[@newideas0ffreedom865]

hay sean keep on doing this job it is very awesome and too much like thanks.

[@tobyw9573]

Sean and Alice need to read David Horowitz to understand modern politics

[@korpocrey2557]

Podcast is great, would be even better if Alice had a popfilter

[@minglifoo33]

great podcast but horrible microphone setup for Dr Dreger

[@RXP91]

Sean, having insomnia recently. These keep me sane, keep posting!

[@0dious]

One does not simply bail out of IDW. Awesome episode.

[@tls234]

Get Dan Dennett on! I would listen to it repeatedly.

[@BoredErica]

I think sex having a part in some transgender people's transitions is perfectly understandable. Multiple things can be true at one time as to reasons for transitioning. It could be gender or sex or it being a fetish. We know people who have a gender differing from their sex at birth, and we know people who find women's clothing arousing for example. Eventually you'll end up with people who end up with both, and just because they have a fetish doesn't make their transition invalid.

[@deandrover2565]

Excellent podcast!

[@rohityadavade5528]

Amazing :)

[@RonJohn63]

15:46 A what-feminist? (I didn't understand the word.) 22:38 Why? Because when categorizing a continuum into a discrete set of categories you *must* set thresholds. It's the very definition of categorization. 23:20 The *sole* property of men? Are you considered a man if there's *any* of these hormones in your body? If "women do make them", why isn't *every* athlete declared to be a male? 24:46 Because those "all kinds of crazy things" are far out on the tails of the Gaussian curve that is humanity's gender. 39:40 Has cognitive disability and forbidden from having sex. Since CD spans everything from Downs Syndrome to dementia to dyslexia... you need to be a bit more specific as to what you're opposed to. 54:50 Being that open minded *all the time* takes a *lot* of mental time and energy which the brain would rather spend on Other Things that provide an evolutionary advantage.

[@rad858]

first one is "I was and am a feminist"

[@gabrieltremblay3918]

lower wage, really.

[@tyrred]

really? REALLY

[@SonaliSenguptasengupso41]

Apt Observations !

[@zero132132]

You might be oversaturating by releasing one of these a day. It's a significant time commitment to listen to all of them.

[@AaronBowley]

This one is just an hour ....

[@ZacksMetalRiffs]

They're just an hour each. Rogan releases 3 hour podcasts almost daily and people keep up just fine.

[@seriouskaraoke879]

Sean posted a comment in yesterday's episode saying that he had four episodes cocked and loaded and was going to release all four this week in honor of the Podcast kick off week. Thereafter, he plans on one per week, or possibly one every two weeks depending on how popular the podcast becomes and whether people post bitchy comments. (I added the bitchy part, but you know he wanted to include that).

[@bytefu]

Just listen later

[@er9875]

I disagree, to me its refreshing to find a podcast I can binge on that isn't wrought with misinformation

[@aquaperro]

Dr. Sean Carroll interviewing Alan Alda would have to have video so we could tell them apart.

[@Moises505130]

Would love to hear you have Bret Weinstein on, ...maybe Jordan Peterson

[@nexx1460]

No, please not JP... little bit more and i will see him in my fridge.

[@hankroest6836]

Ha!

[@mechkota]

@@1DangerMouse1 Yeah you just want gender identitarians

[@C05597641]

I was told that chromosomal defects are not extra sexes. I was also told that there is just male and female and intersex people are people that have an abnormality. This is from a consultant doctor in a childrens hospital. We spent some time on this topic. Much in the way a heart defect is not a variation on a human heart. Its a defect.

[@tobyw9573]

Change can be good, but change can be really bad; do you really want to vote for a party that is fine with ANTIFA and bloodying of college journalists. Conservatives are more in favor of improvement, for instance the American revolution was more along the lines of improvement, the French and Russian revolutions and the Chinese revolution and Cultural Revolution the were more along the lines of “change”.

[@A1M8E7]

Can you get Joe Rogan on the podcast please?