Episode 43: Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition Book Review

If you’re new in town or just new to this whole podcast thing, you’re tuning into ‘Lore by Night’, the podcast that discusses all things vampiric, with no fear of breaching The Masquerade. In this episode, we shall review Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition as I present my thoughts and opinions on its presentation and mechanics to help you better decide whether this is the game for you and whether I think it is better or worse than V5.
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[@Fnipernackle]

V20, imo, is the gold standard for Masquerade. It pulls no punches in terms of the setting. It includes so much information that before you had to buy multiple books to get. It doesn't water down the setting, clans, or disciplines. They cleaned up a lot of the mechanics, and if you think Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude are broken now (good or bad broken), you should've seen them back when. I personally love the changes and I haven't seen the broken aspect of them yet. V20 literally is the best version of the game put out, not just because of mechanics and story, but because it was funded by the fans and the writers made it for the fans, staying true and loyal to the fan base who made VtM what it is today, and that kind of loyalty is hard to find in today's greed-driven world.

[@Emperor_Atlantis]

Well I do got to say that most disiplines are broken in V20. Dont get me wrong, I do agree it was more broken in previous editions. Having said that certain disiplines are more powerfull then others, and always will be. Especially Auspex will always take the crown. Its such a versitile disipline in terms of offence, defense and removes tons of opportunities for creative storytelling. I have seen my players abuse it creativly more then once. Also Thaumaturgy will always be strong once a player has ammased 100to150exp. Although that isnt a real problem since all my Tremere players untill now have been powergamers and didnt last very long

[@rory7590]

I disagree - which as is stated in the podcast is fine to agree to disagree. For me, as a long term player, I felt that Vampire Revised took a wrong turn from the earlier editions by losing an edge in the horror or, indeed, ‘punk’ elements of the game. V20 is really just a compilation of Revised material - Vampire Revised Revised, if you will. It catalogues and puts things into one place, but again loses some of the edge that appealed to me when Vampire: The Masquerade first came out. V5, by contrast, looks to refresh and refocus on that setting aspect in its design, and it has more elegant mechanics that really drive home themes in a way they don’t in previous editions, including V20. So, I prefer V5.

[@gogogamemistress]

V20...is just more useful. V5 books I have bought since release is only 2 Core - Got it free for running it as one of the official WW GMs at Gen Con. Anarch - returned Camarilla - returned Chicago by Night - Prebought from Onyx Path Cults of the Blood Gods - Prebought from Onyx Path V20 - 5 books purchased Core Tome of Secrets Rites of the Blood Lore of the Clans Lore of the Bloodlines

[@Lilibard]

I really recommend Anarchs Unbound. Doesn't add a ton mechanically, but what it does is really good and the explanations for Anarch sects and culture is a little more indepth and understandable than V5

[@Brim_the_Wizard]

Yeah the V5 Cam and Anarch books aren’t worth the money and the corebook is incredibly disorganized. It’s almost like they don’t want people to find useful information readily. Some of the actual gameplay rules are lost in flavor text.

[@sidcasino6335]

Glad I'm not the only one studying these books with nary a chance to play. Good review!

[@randver5656]

Heh, i was starting to think I was the only one that preferred things in V20. I just can't get into the new lore :/.

[@alucard7525]

Randver Jormunrekson V5 is Gehenna lite.

[@branhun]

I completely agree. Even though I started with V5, the lore of V20 just seems cooler to me, so by now I am doing a sort of homebrew mix of the two.

[@Luckmann]

Anyone that thinks of V5 as being oWoD is a fool. They may share some names and trademarks, but for all intents and purposes, gWoD is fundamentally different from oWoD, and half the things in one of them make absolutely no sense whatsoever in regards to the others. Like the Anarchs as their own sect (the anarchs as their own sect is the Sabbat; the Sabbat was *literally* created by the anarchs refusing the Conclave of Thorns), Theo Bell turning into a metrosexual hipster and betraying the Camarilla, eclectic clans with virtually no clan structure taking decisions in unison (only the Malkavians get to do that), the formation of the Hecata, the divorcing of clans from real-world cultures, etc., etc., the list goes on. It is better to think of oWoD as oWoD, nWoD as nWoD, and gWoD as gWoD, regardless of what whomever happens to hold some nebulous IP rights say about it, because they are clearly wrong even at a basic level or at a cursory examination.

[@DaevaGlow]

My first VtM tabletop chronicle that I played in was V20, it's still V20 and I have a really good group of people I play with for over a year. I can see where V20 and V5 could be merged in some spots for some homebrew experience. The group I play with has been playing since the mid-90s.

[@sentimentalmariner590]

Best disciplines by far in my opinion are the requiem 2nd edition disciplines.

[@alucard7525]

Great review! I agree with most of your statements except: Fortitude is broken. You spend 60-80xp (either IC or OOC costs) for 5 dice against damage(soaking 3 on average if we're generous and round up). Most things will probably do more damage than that, and if anything has potence. Then you're really screwed. Personally I try to buff Fortitude, because of how weak it is in comparion with the other physical disciplines (Ex: Auto str successes, or more attacks.)

[@Gangrel442003]

Celerity is also broken. 1 blood point per dot of celerity? This short dicks the higher generations from the get go...

[@superdude681]

I just noticed the orchestral version of the lore by night theme, its really nice.

[@LoreByNightVtM]

I am glad someone noticed this more original orchestral arrangement, as I'm sure the composer will be (Jack Le Breton) You will be able to purchase that and some other new tracks on his Bandcamp page in less than 10 days.

[@DellaDykeborn]

I have an extensive library of VTM in all its iterations. I pretty much use V5 for game mechanics, minus blood resonance. I use and adapt the world with the information from all the other books. The dice mechanics are smoother and hunger dice make things interesting. I like the V5 templates for NPCs. I must have all the books I can get and I alter the lore to fit my universe. We've been playing for 5 years and within the last year switched to V5. I love it! Our stories truly are about personal horror and I love it. Recently when I do recaps I also make episodic videos so we watch the previous week to put us in the mood. There's so much great information and ideas in the old books.

[@mykehill44]

V20 is my favorite version! I just started a chronicle last week with 3 players who have never played before.

[@Luckmann]

The splash for the video asks a question. I'm not here to watch the video, I'm just here to answer the question. The answer is yes.

[@DellaDykeborn]

One of the challenges with reading corebooks back to back and all the way through are the fancy fonts and small typeface. My old eyes ain't what they used to be

[@LordReginaldMeowmont]

Having played DtF and WtA, I can tell you demons and werewolves work differently than the book states. Sometimes very differently. I prefer the simpler way the V20 book does them. They weren't actually meant to be mixed with VtM. Crossovers weren't intended until ChoD aka NWoD with VtR 2e.

[@Luckmann]

This isn't really true. There are literally crossover scenarios produced. Content was always intentionally made with compatibility in mind. What was never really intended were mixed parties, the reasons for which should be evident at a cursory examination of the materials.

[@Nevera476]

Fantastic review, whenever people argue which version as better i plan to refer them here

[@LoreByNightVtM]

You're too kind, thank you! 😊

[@libraryofpangea7018]

This is why I enjoy home brew, you can take element's from each iteration of the game- including Wod², such as Requiem- while reconfiguring them all together. Most of the lore stuff is a birds eye veiw, but players should feel like they are in a world of mystery so there is no reason why you can't create a fog of war for lore. Battle systems & mechanics should be custom to however the individual troupe of players has the most fun or the most engaging way to help tell the story anyways. I liked running v20 with a few system's and extra lore bits from v5 while using werewolf lore from Forsaken rather than Apocalypse in my last game since it was a joint campaign with the narrative meeting in the middle by the end. The way werewolves work in Forsaken just better filled in the tones of Territorial savagery I wanted to hit for my vampire players. The cosmic conflicts and tribal tones for Apocalypse would have been too comic bookish for that story. Despite Loving Apocalypse. It's like each version is just a plug and play mix and match, with video games as an analogy it's less like DLC & more like community modding. How & why and what kind of experience you create should matter more than which version is best. They all give good ideas and concepts to work with.

[@darthjoel6357]

I just ordered this book in color from Drive Thru RPG! Great review LBN! 🧛‍♂️

[@LoreByNightVtM]

Thank you kindly 😊

[@daved.8483]

I bloody love you story telling abilities...man I'm jealous!

[@Philippoable]

The physical disciplines were far better handled in V20 Dark Ages imo, which is my favorite VtM book ever.

[@anyoneatall3488]

How were they handled?

[@theclash24]

V5 is the worse thing to happen to vtm...and I've seen and own Kindred the Embraced

[@randver5656]

Re; Art - I think I heard somewhere that the artist got sick at some point, which put him behind schedule.

[@LoreByNightVtM]

Aaaaaah, F

[@galilea723]

Yeah the main artist got sick and they had to finish the book before certain deadline. Hence why the art is so... uneven. Which is a shame because this is not a problem in the other 20th annyversary books.

[@LoneWolf-gz9mr]

Ever think about doing a review of Vampire the Requiem? I think the second edition of it is pretty cool... It seems like you have read the book (you mention it in your V5 core book review)... So I wonder what you thought of it.

[@LoreByNightVtM]

I may look at it soon

[@AndusDominae]

There's a 2×3" box in V20 which resolves a potential conflict between two rules. The writers asked the community for suggestions before finalising the book, someone pointed out the conflict in hopes of a resolution, I offered my take and they used it exactly as I presented it. That's my only vague tenuous claim to fame... and even then I'm not credited.

[@travdump209]

What page is it on?

[@theclash24]

Sabbat are my fave. They are technically the good guys lol 😂

[@scottdoesntmatter4409]

I did manage to mostly fix Celerity, Potence and Fortitude in my home game. Should I type out how I did so?

[@labibsaud8064]

yes please!

[@scottdoesntmatter4409]

@@labibsaud8064 it will take awhile. Fortitude simply adds more soak dice equivalent to the rating to most damage. Against sunlight or fire, you still take aggravated but can add your Stamina + Fort together to soak. Indeed, you can add Fort to any roll demanding Stamina, making it more flexible. To heal in combat, spend your blood, and roll Stamina + Fort + Survival diff 8, and if you get successes equal to your blood points spent, you heal that many levels.

[@scottdoesntmatter4409]

@@labibsaud8064 Celerity is different, but still simple. Spend 1 blood to activate it, and you get extra actions equal to your rating. However, instead of rolling Dexterity, you roll Wits for all physical actions. This weakens Celerity, but makes sense given that you need to think fast to use it. Celerity is easily the most powerful of the 3, so it needed to be nerfed a little. Note that Initiative is the sum of Wits, Dexterity, and 1d10 roll. Initiative is declared in REVERSE order, with the lowest stating their action first. Anyone higher up can interrupt now that they know what the lower results are going to do. This forces everyone to pay attention, so they can gain limited precognition of a sort. You snooze, you lose.

[@scottdoesntmatter4409]

@@labibsaud8064 Potence simply adds to your Strength rating, and like Strength adds 25 lbs per dot to your carrying limit. When you roll for damage, you get extra successes equivalent to your rating, as if you'd rolled all 10's, but you don't actually get more dice in your pool. This does not cost blood.

[@scottdoesntmatter4409]

@@labibsaud8064 This is where it gets interesting. All vampires can simply spend xp to get these 3 disciplines, at x7 if you don't have it as a clan discipline at any time without training. However, if you have a teacher who has the rating as a clan discipline, you can instead spend at x6 (Caitiff at x5 if they have a teacher). You can of course up your clan disciplines with xp without a teacher, but it takes years sometimes, usually downtime. Thus PC's will want a Mentor rating (this gives the GM a plot device). Interestingly, Caitiff can teach any Discipline they want to another vampire. If non Caitiff have a non clan Discipline, you can't teach it to other vampires. So, if the party has the opportunity to learn a funky Discipline, it should be taught to the party Caitiff so he can teach it to the rest of the party.

[@TheJDough1]

I’m going to be completely honest, I have no idea what you were saying, but your voice is amazing!! You’ve got to get into voiceover work

[@deathpunk187]

I mean I kinda just interpreted V5's version of the Sabbat as them not being a political power house much in the western hemisphere as they were in the 90's and 00's, and that they mostly left for Eastern Europe and the Middle East for the Gehenna War, but I can also see how they sorta did portray them as a vampire boogeyman in a shoebox

[@zeriul09]

hmm, still have all of my 2nd edition books, i'll stick to them when i can get a group that isnt squeamish

[@Estel2121]

The thumbnail was very clickbaity Lorey haha

[@LoreByNightVtM]

Good, that was the idea 😜

[@Sh0cklyz]

Yeah sold V5 and got this instead. The difference is staggering. The lore, the art, the amount of content, the whole theme... it's just SO much better. V5 feels toned down in every aspect.

[@Prince_Of_Fish]

artwork in v20 left a lot to be desired, that was my only real complaint about it as not having rules for pre-modern games isnt a real complaint.

[@Sh0cklyz]

V20 art is weird. V5 art is straight up cringe.

[@Prince_Of_Fish]

@@Sh0cklyz V5s art is quite good, the problem is that its not consistent, some of it is completely different and some of it is just pictures of real people. the only good thing i can say about V5 is that some of its art is good. just some.

[@Sh0cklyz]

@@Prince_Of_Fish Yeah I won't disagree.

[@KLamki1]

@@Prince_Of_Fish I heard the only art work worth its salt that are randomly pasted in V5 are in fact recycled concept art from the cancelled WoD MMO back from the CCP game. The rest of it is atrocious, mostly photography of amateur larpers.

[@AustinKiefer]

I know I'm the odd one out. But even though V20 gives you more to play with (unfair point to make when V5 is not even 3 years old and has to 100% convert the old systems into the new rules/mechanics for the "rebooted" V5) I feel like V5 is just the better game in the end. V20 has always feel like a power game where its more about "so ... then I started blasting" and people can like that all they want. But playing a game where I have to actually deal with the addiction of blood in dangerous situations and constantly need to punch up, instead of down is just more fun to me. V20 is 100% a good action system while V5 is 100% a good horror system. But I have seen and play games of V20 and have HUGE problems with things like the discipline restrictions and the wild growth of said disciplines, and mid-maxing of being a tremere. I like the idea of "Path of Enlightments" but hate that there poorly designed. Players will always start or convert to them, 90% of the time, because there pretty much OP in protecting you from humanity issues with no real balancing in not picking PoE, and players using it to just be evil because its fun and not to create a interesting PC. I just 100% love the simple hunger tracker and how dangerous/unpredictable it makes the game, and hunger dice rules so much that I cant even think of playing a V:TM game without it. V20 just has a predictable and easily to calculate blood pool, and values .......... yay. There's more I can say, but I think I got my opinion across. conclusion, I love V5 compared to V20. V5 is the unpredictable horror game that feels real and what I personally wanted out of a WoD game, V20 is more about the action and romanticizing WoD. Thats just how I honestly see it. I dont think liking V20 BAD or anything, I just like what V5 is delivering, even if its a smaller dish than V20's 10 years on this earth.

[@davidberkowitz7411]

First!