REVIEW: The Shocking Truth about Werewolf 5th Edition

[@olafbuddenberg4787]

"...this game doesn't even use d4 so you're safe..." - This made me chuckle.

[@Demolitiondude]

They call it reimagining, in reality it's corrupted.

[@Nyrufa]

Seems to be a running theme with 5th edition.

[@sashmiel6566]

I found it pretty good explanation that OwD was for GenX, Forsaken was for Millennials and this one is for Gen Z

[@zengunman9553]

And the relentless Midification of everything continues...

[@oscarwind4266]

I bought it, thought it was neat, then looked online for what other people were thinking. Didn't think it was that bad, I mean a bit light on lore, and quite frankly, I really like the cult of Fenris despite them being villainous now. I then looked up the 20th anniversary rules. Oh god, it's so much better. I have never wanted to play a tabletop game as much as I want to be a full moon, Get of Fenris with every point in combat, and a glorious bloodline. I have never seen such a tonal shift between editions of a game. What happened to, We do not walk into the arms of Gaia but swim in a river of blood? Plus why make the new Fenrisians fascist? Wouldn't killing all humans like that one camp of the Red Talons want to be more appropriate to make antagonistic? I don't get it.

[@capital5901]

what the hell have they done? Some of the greatest stories I ever encountered had so many themes that no longer exist. Metis, Get, the furies, the interbreeding not being allowed. Why would they do this?

[@ironwolf56]

"Updated for modern sensibilities"

[@capital5901]

dead ass @@ironwolf56

[@svartvarulf4985]

Woke activism

[@Lepal]

@@svartvarulf4985 , my question is : We, the people that like and play rol games... are we woke? I think they've messed up.

[@DiddntFindANameLol]

Stuff like metis and interbreeding isnt hard to homebrew. And this way, they dont have to promote a game about fucking animals.

[@daineminton9687]

Haven't played 5e Werewolf, however... I'm not down for a game of "How to neuter & spade your pets". This crap sounds like an insult, Werewolf was meat head/meat grinders of the WoD Supernaturals. It sounds like they took the gritty bloody bows & swords of the system to trade it for 90s Nerf foam bows & swords. You could hop in my game :D It's Old WoD Werewolf 2e. Btw Demon the Fallen was my favorite WoD branch, boo to you techocracy mages, lmao.

[@Witch-KingofTsamra]

You could always join up with my group when I run Werewolf 5e next year.

[@ArchArrow1]

I totally agree with you. All this "Safe Space " BS is ruining all the games I loved to play. From D&D to WOD and everything in between. These modern game developers have taken all the edge out of the games and the modern gamers have to wrap themselves in bubble wrap before they sit down to roll dice. They've turned the dark, violent and gritty Vampires and Werewolves and turned them into Twilight and Paw Patrol. Pitiful and sad.

[@robertmasengale9366]

The paper is not cheaper. They chose a matte finish on the paper instead of a glossy finish to make the pages look a touch more natural because it fita the werewolf vibe.

[@PostmortemVideo]

Matte paper is generally cheaper AND this feels lower gsm.

[@trpdrspider8372]

3:52 "No Fun Allowed" Honestly the distancing from words that gets panties in a bunch has de-spiced the entire Game series. The Gray Gruel effect still runs strong.

[@rlarkinson]

Being more of a Mage ST, I have used a lot of werewolf material in the past. I am not surprised they have removed what they believe to be problematic parts of the game. All we are left with here are the scraps left for the dog.

[@lauramumma2360]

Language madness reimagining is a Pox on the RPG community. Making the setting different than Vampire is weird. Full activism = boring content. Anyway that is what seems to be the trend in my observation. Well I only have 1st edition stuff for Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage… so if I blow the dust off for the folks in our RPG group it will be nice and dark and I will blissfully ignore new editions, unless someone gives me a free copy because you know they hate it.

[@202mc4]

What's that "5 things you can't say in an rpg" thing?

[@bobhill-ol7wp]

Sponk, Gib, Flim and the other 2 shall not be named.

[@Nyrufa]

Hmm, gotta say I like the sound of them removing the mutational inbreeding. I always thought that was a stupid mechanic to begin with. Delirium causes humans to go temporarily insane if they witness your true werewolf nature, and yet you're required to take a human as your mate? No, that's just dumb. Werewolves should be allowed to breed with their own kind, it will cause a lot less headaches that way.

[@Tyracus]

The Metis were an interesting example of dichotomy in oWoD. They were the only means by which the Garou could breed true but also came with significant disadvantages in their sterility and disabilities because the blood ran too hot so to speak. They were also a considerable risk because Crinos was their birth form so any dead Metis were an immediate threat to the Veil since dead bodies don’t provoke the delirium. Also Garou were meant to breed with Kinfolk who were immune to delirium aside from someone human/wolf interacting with an entity that could turn into a 9 foot tall blender of teeth and fangs. It was a grounding influence to keep werewolves from getting too much into their own culture while also being an opportunity for story engagement since it was important people to the Garou that were uniquely vulnerable because their enemies knew what they were. Kinfolk relations was also interesting in their own regard because of how each tribe treated kinfolk and how they could be a useful intermediary between regular humans and Garou should the need arise. Also for as much of a Marty Stu that Sam Haight got to be by the end of his story the idea of resentful kinfolk who were immune to some of the Garou’s protections and knew their culture/weaknesses made for a compelling villain that highlighted the fact that despite their strength and resilience that the right tactics could kill them just as dead as any Wyrm spirit or other supernatural threat. It was a decision from a story and theme standpoint not a realistic one even if the concept of recessive genes and inbreeding shade the results.

[@Nyrufa]

@@Tyracus I still say it's a stupid idea, that the writers only came up with as a means to deter players from engaging in werewolf orgies. Like, breeding with humans / wolves is fine, but forcing your character to have to choose one, instead of allowing them to breed with a fellow werewolf has never been a creative decision I was happy with. I'm glad that W5 got rid of that... but it's a shame literally everything else about the game is dog crap.

[@Backfromthedeadguy]

Kin folk were not affected by delirium. So that particular criticism has no meat on the bone.

[@Nyrufa]

@@Backfromthedeadguy You're still at risk of some family members flipping out and going on a killing spree because they were inconvenienced by something. Remember that Werewolf society was traditionally based on whoever was the strongest and most aggressive rising to the status of leadership. They bullied each other into submission, and that's the kind of creature who is supposed to be marrying themselves to humans, instead of being with their own kind.

[@HeadHunterSix]

I did buy a copy of the 5th Edition, but I agree with you that the changes have diluted and neutered the things that made the setting unique and evocative and compelling. But that's no surprise given the significant move towards wokeness in RPGs. Ironic that they should mention bleed - once upon a time, the extremist activism of Garou was purposed, but not reflective of an attempt to indoctrinate players. It was a means of exploring controversial themes safely. Now it's like the book is a manifesto. If I were to play again, I'd stick with 20th Anniversary.

[@biocapsule7311]

*There's nothing 'woke' or 'wokeness' about this. Woke is a good thing.* The old editions dive into sensitive topics but it was never portrait as good things, just complex. This seems more of a sanitizing act, like conservatives thinking removing gay or trans material will make gay or trans disappear. Ravnos weakness change in V20, that is being 'woke'. It removed the Roma stereotype without removing the Roma connections and made the weakness more complex, WW has actually made try to make the connection more positive over the years. What happen here, you can't even go into the topic to make take stand. A 'manifesto' have passion, have bite... this has nothing, this seems to go out of it's way to stand for nothing. To avoid talking about sensitive topics when the Werewolf setting use to be the most contemporarily political, How is this 'woke'? *Sticking with 20th Anniversary is just about the only part I agree with you.* Honestly, people who keep using 'woke' as a pejorative and blame every nonsense on being 'woke', should ask themselves, *who taught them that.* Because as someone who is very left-wing (and still very much love Werewolf setting). Woke is a word that wasn't even common in public consciousness before right-wing media weaponized it as their 'bad' word every few years (like SJW, or Feminism etc etc.)... also why none of the mouthpieces out there can explain or define what woke means. So I ask you the same question I would ask whenever I see someone using 'woke' as a pejorative. When did you started doing that, what it means and why did you took to right-wing narrative so easily?

[@HeadHunterSix]

@@biocapsule7311 I didn't "take to the narrative", because the people trying to control the narrative are the leftists. They're the ones who started using "woke" like it was some kind of badge, and used virtue signaling like it was a validation of self-righteousness. Self-loathing has become the "in" thing now. No, sorry, woke people aren't more aware or perceptive or noble than the rest of us. They have abandoned common sense and cling to symbolic gestures and platitudes. And the phrase "social justice warrior" is three lies for the price of one. They don't know how to be social, because they label anyone who doesn't agree with them (sound familiar? No different than the conservatives they abhor); they care more about symbolic justice than actual justice (the judicial system only "works" when it delivers the outcome they want, they burn and loot their own neighborhoods in protest, and they treat criminals like martyrs); and they're definitely _not_ "warriors". Those Antifa kids who have no trigger discipline and can't reload? Some "warriors". I'm not "right wing", I'm objective. I'm not drinking anyone's Kool-Aid. But I don't think it makes the world a better place if we censor free speech that we don't agree with (that's the whole point of free speec) or call an empty gesture a gain (nobody's life is better for removing half-orcs from D&D). So, no... I see nothing good about being "woke". It's a pejorative for a reason, but it originated from the people who hate when it's used to portray them. And don't even get me started on the modern interpretation of "feminism".

[@HeadHunterSix]

@@biocapsule7311 Ironically, I heard the phrase "Woke" from someone who described themselves as such - as if it were a badge of higher enlightenment. Sadly, such people tend to have a double standard and see no problem in excluding or cancelling those whose views do not agree with their own. Don't even try to tell me it doesn't happen, because that's a left-wing narrative. They impose ridiculous limitations on expression, while stridently advocating the sanctity of their own. Mine is not a "right-wing narrative", it is one that is against ridiculous bullshit like changing the name of Boba Fett's starship from "Slave 1", or removing the Get of Fenris - because of some fuzzy-headed belief that neutering the "bad guys" will somehow make for a better story or game. As for SJWs, they tend to be more concerned with "social" justice than _actual_ justice. Again, there's a double-standard where they turn a blind eye to anything that doesn't fit _their_ narrative. But I'm merely answering your question, I'm not interested in an ongoing discussion. I'm sure you feel some moral imperative to "enlighten" me... and that exactly proves why I'm against the "Woke".

[@biocapsule7311]

​@@HeadHunterSix ​ *Do you even read what you type?* Circular logic at it best. You basically assert *"your points as 'right'"* without actually showing how, and declare that any rebuttal automatically proves you right (because you are "not interested in an ongoing discussion"). How very convenient. lol You just want to run your mouth, spew your rubb!sh without anyone gain saying you. Assertions you can't defend, and don't need to defend if you can rationalized that any attempt to counter your is even more prove you are right... a rather typical bubble. I am certainly getting the impression that whoever did use the word 'woke' to describe themselves as such, really do have higher enlightenment and likely gave your a thrashing in the mental department. But suit yourself, your spew is already quite revealing. Anytime you want an discussion, I am game. But I doubt that.

[@shinigamiauthor]

"a game for mature players" with infant minds and emotions.

[@braddoc4087]

Too bad I'm not allowed to play it due to my political views...but seriously, I"m more into Hunter, the other books are great for material, but I cannot help to feel less than impressed for WtA 5th, good thing old books and PDFs exists

[@HeadHunterSix]

I don't pay any mind to the "Don't play this if your political views differ from ours" - if I buy a book or game, I'll do as I damn well please with it. Liberal authors clearly don't understand communication models or the sovereignty of personal property. I'm sure they label me as "fascist" for those views but honestly, IDGAF.

[@202mc4]

The second edition of hunter:the vigil seems pretty tight

[@paulll47]

If you like hunter, do yourself a solid and try hunter the vigil, it's CofD so not part of WoD but it's so much better under every aspect and could be easily be ported to WoD.

[@braddoc4087]

@@paulll47 I got the book, I've read it long ago, but I did not get in, as it felt like it was much more of mundane groups than any supernaturally powered individual with their backs to the wall.

[@paulll47]

@@braddoc4087 Oh my bad, I thought you were talking about hunter 5 which is basically vigil without anything that made it great, if it's the original one than sure, it is completely different from vigil.

[@fingergunbari8851]

Tbh after several months. I've finally come around to it. I still dislike the changes but in the end they still have a coherent game and it still plays fun like werewolf should

[@Amyas80s]

2nd edition whitewolf with always be the gild standard of gaming for me. I miss playing it so much.

[@MrBrothasky]

I too am a bit of a sucker. I was more into Werewolf and Vampire back in the day. I don't hate the new edition, but it also feels like a different kind of game. It needs more to the overall setting. The Antagonist chapter was my favorite part of the book. I do agree that the idea of Rage dice interperpretations being wholly contextual to the moment can cause the results to be unclear. I haven't run this yet, but I am open to seeing how the changes pan out in the gameplay.

[@patrickmulder2450]

I just got the book a week ago. Now, I have been a Mage ST for 20 years, but I've never read a Werewolf book. I got it because a friend of mine wants to run W5 as his next campaign. I'm quite positive about the book so far, especially compared to the V5 one which I found almost unreadable. The layout is clear enough, and the game is basically 5th edition WoD, so not all that complicated and nicely old-school in it's approach. Of course that means you'll be better of going for the 20th anniversary or CofD stuff if you prefer more crunchy mechanics. . Downside of that is that there appear to be a lot of stuff in the book that really seems to have lost it's mechanical importance. There is this thing about the moon phases that I don't really get. There's 5 of them, but they basically don't do anything. There's a few lines of flavour text and a hand full of Gifts you get access to, but that's about it. I don't really see the point of them and would probably just scrap the whole thing, make their Gifts Native to all werewolves and call it done. This would also simplify the Tribal Gifts pages a lot! (Sound of angry Werewolf vets in the distance) The Tribes are an interesting idea but somewhat generic in execution. I'm having issues keeping them apart. The Bone Gnawers, Children of Gaia and Ghost council all seem to be 'find secrets' groups. Why the Bone Gnawers get Honour as a Renown and the other two Wisdom is a bit of a mystery to me. I'm sure that many of these Tribes are as recognisable to people who've played Werewolf for 30 years as the Traditions are to me, but reading them for the first time they seem to have to little diversity to be recognisable as distinct cultural entities. I'm sure pressure from these extremely boring modern activist types has caused this blandness and it's a detriment to the game. I honestly wouldn't really know why a character concept that would be good for the Bone Gnawers wouldn't fit with the Ghost Council for example. I guess the new design is to go with the Tribe that has the coolest Gifts? The dice trick involved with the Werewolves is called Rage. I'll have to reserve judgement till I've actually played with it. I like the hunger dice from V5, but I have worries about Rage. It feels like you'll be a coin toss away from standing in front of a huge spirit monster in nothing but your birthday suit if the situation requires you to lean upon this source of mystical power to much. Though I'm sure such a situation will be hilarious, I'm not really sure if that fits the mood of the game? Calling on innate and mystical Werewolf powers will often require you to make a Rage check. Failing the check costs you Rage. When you're out of Rage you loose the Wolf and are basically a normal human until you can howl at the moon the following night. I like the Caern idea. I don't know if this is a thing from the original Werewolf games, but it reminds me of the Chantry idea from Ars Magica. It's probably a bit bare bones to be perfect, but considering I'm a Mage player and we've not had a decent Chantry system for Mage since first edition, I can work with what was provided. Having your pack build and nurture a place of spiritual importance to greater power and prominence sounds like a solid idea for a game. I'm pretty confident I could whip that into quite a nice campaign with combat, social and investigative/knowledge challenges based on what the book offers in the antagonist and Umbra chapters. From the perspective of a 30 year veteran the offering is probably quite meagre, but I feel it offers enough suggestions for me to be able to build a nice sandbox for my players to mess around in. The fact that a Caern (gets translated to Node in my Mage brain) has been turned into something more substantial then 'place where you get your juice' is really cool! The Umbra surprised me. Sure, as a Mage ST I'm no stranger to the WoD cosmology, but even then I imagined the Werewolves to have a lot more animalistic view of the Umbra then they apparently have. Turns out, Werewolves are masters of Ars Cupiditae! Where I had expected an animalistic world of hunters and prey, much like what is presented in the CofD books, this Umbra is filled with spirits that have complex desires and as the Syndicate teaches us; where there is a desire you can make a profit! I'm pretty sure that a properly industrious Garou could spin quite the web of favours among the spiritual inhabitants, or a pack could build a nice little enterprise as a spiritual messaging service etc. I'm not really sure if that's what the book intended me to take away from that chapter, but there you have it. Garou Inc. Conclusion: I never had an interest in Werewolf before and I wouldn't have bought this game if I wouldn't be playing in a campaign starting next month. I'm not disappointed with what I got though. Until I've actually ran through a few games I can't say much about how it plays, but the biggest problem I see now is that it doesn't do a steller job of onboarding new players. It seems to lean heavily on things that'll probably be obvious to the vets (and probably piss them off due to it's presentation here) but is to abstract for me as a new guy. The Tribes are so striped of character (probably to prevent twitter from being offended) that they lose distinction for someone who doesn't have the context from previous editions. Auspices seem pointless. Other practical shit about Garou culture is unclear (if I change shape will I next be forced to walk around in my bare arse the rest of the day and does that make nudity a normal thing amongst Garou?), There's not a lot of time spend on the Werewolf packs (as I can remember) and what they mean culturally (What takes precedence, the pack or the Tribe? What about Moots, are you supposed to stay with your pack, or is this the moment to mix with visiting tribemates from other packs?), how do the different Tribes behave towards their fellow tribesmen? and how about Garou from other Tribes? Have they got special celebrations or feast days? Loads of questions! I understand that space in the book is limited, but since they've done away with any cultural ties these things should be compensated for in worldbuilding since there is no longer a real world analogue to serve as inspiration source for making stuff up. All-in-all it'll probably make for a good game, but I feel I would need a few of the older books to flash out the world if I wanted to stay true to it's lore if I was a storyteller.

[@Lepal]

Thanks for exposing all of this

[@briangoubeaux5360]

Being that Mage is next to have a 5E how worried are you given to what we got with 5E Werewolf and Vampire?

[@r4z0rv1n3]

The Tribes that all blend together used to be way more clearly defined but there were more ties to real world cultures that were scrubbed from them in order to appeal to the more sensitive modern audience. The problem is that when you take away the things that make the groups unique you need to either add things back to help with that or just get rid of bloat and they did neither.

[@biocapsule7311]

Just from this review... I personally prefer to keep most of the old stuffs, particularly kinfolks. I like the idea that werewolf can come from non-werewolf lineage, but most of the elements that can make it more expansive, less American centric ideas, can be kept without throwing out the old. And FGS, Metis is one of my favorite parts.

[@aceupinasleeve5031]

Where i'm from we have native communities that are treated like shit and often live in third world country conditions. Our government keeps making apologies but no politician would ever touch any of our racist native laws with a ten foot pole. They talk about reconciliation but whenever some of them protest against pipelines going through their lands that could ruin their homes the government just send thugs at them to beat them up. Some don't even have a steady access to freshwater. But like, i guess the unfortunate ones that dealt with w* psychosis won't ever see that word printed ever again in any random play pretend game? Yay for progress?

[@Jaseoffire]

Oh. A fellow mage lover. The best way to not be sad by the corpse of a favorite game is to remember the good memories. Unfortunately, I came in with 20th anniversary, so... That game is probably less chopped up and left as scraps, but there is plenty of moral grand standing. I don't recall if it had safety tools. Anyways, I am thinking about looking into older Mage. Probably Second edition/crusades. I like the idea behind the scourge.

[@PostmortemVideo]

Avoid Mage Revised, edition before that is golden.

[@almanacofsleep]

20th anniversary Mage was given over to Phil Brucato to be his magnum opus so you get a lot of Phil Brucato.

[@patrickmulder2450]

Sorcerers Crusade is cool! Really fun edition of Mage. I'm personally a Revised kid, since that's when I joined the hobby, but I've read all the other editions as well. They are cheap enough to get on DriveThruRPG these days, and all of them have an interesting take of Mages and it's system. For example: I love running 1e games from time to time. It's magick systems is really different from what it eventually transformed into by 2e edition. It'll give you a really different mage experience.

[@biocapsule7311]

@@PostmortemVideo Why? Don't really see that much difference. I do refer M20 a lot more.

[@biocapsule7311]

@ensignredcoat718 Wait M20 don't have avatar storm?

[@PetesDracolich]

Great review! When Vampire 5E came out I did some research, watched your review & went with 2E. When Wereolf 5E came out, I did the same & went 2E. I'm glad I did, thanks Grim Jim. I got my Lulu package a few days ago, 100 Dark Places is a gem. The layout is quick & easy @ a glance which makes it not only most excellent but fun to pick through. This is going to be one of my favorite DM secrets having this prepared for me to use as is. Also in my Lulu package was Wightchester! So fkn cool! Soon my players will witness the coming of DM King of the Zombie's and there will be no escape. You continue to amaze me Grim Jim. Cheers!

[@starrius]

i have a modified version of v5 vampire. i have brough back older clans and widened the material but the v5 base system is so much better than the older edition

[@ReadingDave]

Even though there are no kinfolk in this edition, werewolfs can still have families and the kinfolk themes might be played within those families. I plan on having some cursed werewolfs (similar to skinwalkers and the werewolfs of legend) having some kinfolk and family focused culture themes.

[@bennixx138]

I'm a dumb sucker too, Grim

[@GeezLightning]

I always thought the heritage tribes were goofy, (as were some of their gifts). Rather than water them down, they had a chance to restructure werewolf based either on what the werewolves specialized in fighting, or perhaps just added some of the other shifters into the book. When you are magically turning into a 9ft thing, there is no reason to have stat differentiation between breeds. Just cover the special weirdness with gifts.

[@LrdRvrnd]

This is my first exposure to the setting and honestly starting from this edition was fun. I guess I don't have the bias of a player who has been through the other games. I hope starting here doesn't make it difficult for merging with the other themes in the setting.

[@MegaVice10]

I'm curious about your views on what the problems are with Hunger dice as a mechanic?

[@PostmortemVideo]

Random, uncontrollable, fiddly. Tied with the random blood usage, makes it hard to pace things.

[@princealiaps3751]

A pretty incisive review Jim. I was suspicious of W5 & will stick my my 2nd revised. Not everything needs updating for a modern audience but times we live in. White Wolf were pretty woke & preachy when they hit the scene in the 90's but didn't seem as pandery {is that a word ?} as RPG companies these days. Breeds, GOFenris, Native American tribes - I love them all.

[@ReadingDave]

There is allot of fun with WoD with alternate histories and cultures of the tribes. It is kind of up to the ST how to fill all that in.

[@mugan5011]

I only know some changes they did for VTM 5th Edition, like the Kindred care a lot more about the Mortals, because they want to appeal to the new audiences, they're few steps away from adding daylight rings. As far as they said, the Gehenna is only an apocalypse for the Kindred, so, it doesn't affect the other supernaturals nor the Mortals. Paradox getting the IP to reimaging WTA, it's curious and ironic. Anyone could do that.

[@simoneidson21]

No, the Camarilla still doesn’t give a fuck about mortals. It’s just that Humanity vs the Beast is a lot more focused on in V5. Which I actually like. Paths of Enlightenment are fucking stupid for a vampire game or pretty much any game

[@Percivalvideos]

I personally liked Chronicles of darkness much more than the classic WoD, precisely because it offers more freedom. I'm going to keep playing Requiem, Forseken and other games in the line instead of switching to these new "reboots"

[@PostmortemVideo]

Wrong :P Especially in Vampire it offered a lot less freedom in terms of travel and even Vampires living and working together. That was a huge misstep. It never had the vibrancy of oWoD and Mage especially was just awful.

[@Percivalvideos]

@@PostmortemVideo you haven't read the second edition

[@Nyrufa]

@@PostmortemVideo respectfully disagree. Requiem took the idea of vampiric cults and turned them into actual cults, instead of separate clans. They also made blood magics such as Cruac and Theban Sorcery into more publicly available disciplines, so long as you belonged to the proper sect. No singular clan had a monopoly on being witches. They also got rid of the Generations system, meaning that no matter how far down the family tree you were in terms of your embrace, you could theoretically reach the same level of godhood as any ancient vampire, just by surviving long enough. And, of course, with no Generations, this meant there were no Thinbloods, or any threat of vampires being gradually phased out of existence.

[@DigitalTsukiko]

I'm glad to have played and owned the originals, the new one seems lackluster to say the least.

[@MercutioUK2006]

I am also a dumb sucker, but I do heed the advice of other dumb suckers. Accordingly, I shall avoid this!

[@shinigamiauthor]

i'll give this book at least one bonus: it doesnt look like a terrible Art book. still, it comes off as some watered down Pantex Co product. its the 4chan "soul vs soulless" meme

[@ethangross6412]

Massive fix, instead of rage checks making you lose rage make it gain rage you get cap'd at 5 and take willpower damage, this makes you want to spend it and potentially forces a frenzy

[@paulll47]

It was inevitable for werewolf to turn out like it did, people like to think it as one of the cornerstone of WoD and it definitely is when it comes to the bigger metaplot (perhaps to its own detriment since it clashed with literally all the other gamelines to the point that the garou world was simply incompatible with the rest of WoD on multiple levels despite ostentibly being the one who started the bigger WoD cosmology) but sales said otherwise, Whitewolf always tried to push it but it simply couldn't get over Vampire and Mage so it makes sense that they chopped so much of it to make it more similar to vampire. On the subject of wokeness, that is just a collective mental disease that seems to have infected the whole fucking industry, it is luckily relegated to the internet since in person gaming is still very much between normal people who don't have a plethora of triggers born from non existant trauma used to justify a general inability to face life without feeling the most special of the snowflakes.

[@RatsofaFeather]

Ruh roh. Sounds like someone got triggered thinking about snowflakes. But really like boo hoo you gotta think about other players needs. Its the easiest shit in the world.

[@paulll47]

@@RatsofaFeather Gotta love you wokies, trying to throw "snowflakes" around thinking you are turning it on normal people , you somehow manage to be even more pathetic by highlighting your projection issues lol. Regarding other player needs, no I don't need to, as a matter of fact I can ditch a whiny little bitch at the drop of an hat and find myself 10 other and better players, I'm the gm, I'm the one getting the show going.

[@lugzgaming5074]

Can you mix Werewolf and Vampire games together?

[@PostmortemVideo]

Yes, but this seems less set up to do so.

[@HeadHunterSix]

We did it all the time, back in the day.

[@paulll47]

Much easier than in classic WoD, garou are still powerful but not to the point that a starting woof could clean up an elisium by himself.

[@zaneamburn8195]

Werewolf, vampire, and mage are part of WoD(world of darkness) there are others also, but those are the main 3

[@briangoubeaux5360]

This makes me think of the changes Renegade made to their other WoD license, Hunter: The Reckoning. From what I saw in the promos is that the Imbued no longer exist and the Creeds are now part of hunter groups. I thought that they turned Reckoning into Hunter: The Vigil which makes that game entirely pointless then.

[@mugan5011]

Renegade are making the books, but, it's the direction of Paradox doing all of that, Paradox are the IP owners now. VTM 5th Edition also has elements from VTR. The intention is just trying to bring in the Chronicles of Darkness players into WoD, while other changes it's to cater to new audiences. They just want to sell the game.

[@Unbreakable87]

The reboot was told to a lot of us after we pre ordered.

[@Lepal]

Thanks for the review. I'm a big Fan of WW world, and it seems that 5E has lost the value to be a great add to my collection. I cannot found any upgrade to anything of the Lore or World of WW, neither great work in bestout the System. I guess i'll continue playing older editions. It's better keep it simple. And again: thanks for the video.

[@Razamaniac]

This edition is bad. Badly made bad.

[@SilasTheSilent]

Hey, I 100% cried when Dumbledore died soooo

[@NerdStoryteller]

I have so many things I could say about this edition of "Werewolf," but I don't want to ramble on too much and come off as a crazy person. All of 5th edition (which for Hunter makes no fucking sense since it never had a 2nd-4th edition) is straight up garbage. Shit writing, piss-poor rules, a complete lack of any meaningful lore or narrative, terrible artwork, and print-on-demand level of book quality just makes me sad. The entire plan for this edition (if they even have one) should be relegated to the scrap heap. I feel bad for Mage players who are looking forward to the next iteration of their favorite game - if it even gets made - since it'll likely be just as much of a massive disappointment. I've been playing WoD since 95, and have entire bookshelves filled with and dedicated to White-Wolf. Spent thousands of dollars over the course of decades. What they've done with 5th edition makes me want to never spend another penny on their products. At this point, the only thing I can hope for is that Paradox sells it off to a company that is staffed by people who not only know how to write rules and lore, but actually care about the IP.

[@pontusvongeijer1240]

You sound like a crazy person. :3

[@NerdStoryteller]

@@pontusvongeijer1240 That's entirely fair.

[@jesiemartin6511]

We get it your old and don’t like change, this book isn’t for you, move on

[@NerdStoryteller]

@@jesiemartin6511 Change is good, when it isn't simply for the sake of change. When something is built upon and improved, that is a good and welcome change (such as it was with 1st edition White-Wolf to 2nd and revised). When the change is a downgrade, it isn't as good. My age doesn't invalidate that simple truth. Just because something is new, does not automatically mean it is better.

[@nils881]

I really enjoy the newer books. And the streamlining it entails. A lot more mystery, a lot less meta plots, and a lot of very weird lore was cut.

[@docnecrotic]

I never did much with Werewolf. Lots within my circles wrote it off as Furry the Furying. As it would turn out, I did miss out on a lot. I expected nothing less than a watered-down experience, as is common for the industry. At least it's less bad than Vampire, but planescape was less bad than spelljammer.

[@biocapsule7311]

From what I am hearing in this review... seems a lot worst then what happened to Vampires. V5 can be upsetting at times but it is not hard to retain it's history with minor tweaking, but this... changes the history cause and effect of the whole line.

[@paulll47]

@@biocapsule7311 Classic werewolf wrote itself into a corner with it's cosmology clashing with literally everything else in WoD, add to it all the stuff that the wokies deem "problematic" and you can easily see why they chopped it up so much.

[@biocapsule7311]

@@paulll47 Hardly, I don't know what werewolf or WoD you have been reading but it's cosmology fit almost seamlessly with Mage (which can be consider the default way WoDs function). Werewolfs history can basically be taken as pre-history while the rest is later shape by consensus beliefs. Hence in Reckoning, the writers indicated that it's best to think that each line is correct in their own bubble of reality, and the different realities only intersect when they encounter each other. It's especially so for Demons because they are essentially 'spirits' And they are most easily shape by mortal culture and believe. Their history is real especially to them because they and the mortals associated with them, self-actualized it.. And *"wokies",* really?? Why don't you just tattoo the word 'easy mark'. You do know that using the word 'woke' as a pejorative marks you as someone easily gaslight by right-wing propaganda? The term and it's PROPER meaning is something positive yet hardly ever use even by progressive. I am quite certain that you have never heard or use that word before far-right media try to define it, just a few years ago. So I asked you, why do you think 'woke' is bad just because conservative media tells you so? Do you jump on the latest tread they put in front of you? I am actually unfamiliar as to what happen in V5 to make the whole thing contentious, but the fact that the US is now banning a lot of books, should tell you that there really is a far-right problem,. To be honest, the West hasn't been "woke" enough, and now, it's back-sliding.

[@paulll47]

@@biocapsule7311 Werewolf and Mage are definitely clashes over their cosmology, they share superficial aknowledgement over the Triat but everything goes to shit once you start getting into the dark Umbra and the whole origin of the universe, granted it's been years since I read werewolf but I remember reading it to set up a multisplat game with mage and dropping the idea due to this fact in particular. Demon and Hunter are also wholly incompatible with it since their focus is on an abrahamic conception of god, the writers saying that each game exist in their own bubble is just a low effort attempt to pretend there isn't a continuity problem accross the lines. Regarding the wokies, I'm not American and I couldn't give a iota of a fuck about their politics whether on the left or the right or even the true meaning of the word for that matter, I just know that this bunch of cunts have been infiltrating my hobby and turned it into a shithole of fake progressivism and virtue signalers who hide their narcisism behind a non existant moral superiority, I have zero interests in engaging with them in any way. V5 basically burned a whole lot of metaplot and soft retconned a lot of stuff that really didn't sit well with fans, not as bad as werewolf but they still burned a good 10 years of development in favour of making a blank slate for new players. What's about the book banning? You mean that stuff about porn books in schools? Regardless it's your fucking business, couldn't care about it at all beyond a cheap laugh, thank god I live in Europe.

[@paulll47]

@@biocapsule7311 Werewolf and mage have a lot of conflict regarding their cosmology, starting with the dark umbra and up to the origin of the universe, the only thing they seem to agree on is the existence of the triat. Hunter and Demon are also wholly incompatible with Werewolf since the lines assume that god is at the base of everything, the authors saying that each line is independent from each other is basically them admitting they screwed up and not focus on these details too much. Regarding the wokies, I'm not American and I'm not prey of any of your propaganda since I couldn't give less of a iota of a fuck about what happens on your side of the pond aside from a cheap laugh, especially the book banning stuff, I live in a super progressive (as in actually progressive not your burger version with 100 pronouns and easily hurt feelings) and virtually nobody would tear their vests off like the libs are doing now over allowing kids access to porn books, I never felt so lucky for living in Europe really.

[@WizardJim]

Horrible, Werewolf was my second ever rpg, and one I have great affection for. I'll stick with the revised and 20th annual edition.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

W5 is written by Wyrm Agents that decided to neuter the werewolves and wrote the disclaimer because they knew they were writing a book intentionally to try and rewrite WtA in their own, wokist image while also forcing in a lot of Werewolf the Forsaken into this insult. And of course there is the Antifa propaganda piece in the appendix. The cover does look cool though.

[@sofakingwaspinator3306]

Hi

[@MichaelJohnson-vu3bt]

I mean, they neutered vampires in V5 too. I'm not surprised they maimed werewolves

[@biocapsule7311]

Ok, I am going cut and paste to ask the same question of you that I ask another commentor: *There's nothing 'woke' or 'wokeness' about this. Woke is a good thing.* The old editions dive into sensitive topics but it was never portrait as good things, just complex. This seems more of a sanitizing act, like conservatives thinking removing gay or trans material will make gay or trans disappear. Ravnos weakness change in V20, that is being 'woke'. It removed the Roma stereotype without removing the Roma connections and made the weakness more complex, WW has actually made try to make the connection more positive over the years. What happen here, you can't even go into the topic to make take stand. This seems to go out of it's way to stand for nothing. To avoid talking about sensitive topics when the Werewolf setting use to be the most contemporarily political. How is this 'woke'? Honestly, people who keep using 'woke' as a pejorative and blame every nonsense on being 'woke', should ask themselves, who taught them that. Because as someone who is very left-wing (and still very much love old Werewolf setting). Woke is a word that wasn't even common in public consciousness before right-wing media weaponized it as their 'bad' word every few years (like SJW, or Feminism etc etc.)... also why none of the mouthpieces out there can explain or define what 'woke' means. So I ask you the same question I would ask whenever I see someone using 'woke' as a pejorative. When did you started doing that, what it means and why did you took to right-wing narrative so easily? Antifa propaganda, WTF does that even mean?? Are you pro-facist? lol... feel free to enlighten me.

[@simoneidson21]

Werewolf is a game where you play ecoterrorist pseudo-native Americans. It’s always been a leftist game

[@mjolasgard2533]

Wait wait... did people just used to call you 'Grim' around the 2000's in the Cam Uk?

[@PostmortemVideo]

Yes. I was in the Cam from 1995 through 2005 or so. Ran London, Basingstoke and was the Mage ST for a while.

[@PostmortemVideo]

Though the name 'Grim' comes from when I was at college.

[@mjolasgard2533]

@@PostmortemVideo It didn't click till I heard you on this video - I used to run the Darlington game in the NE. Recognised the name and had to say hi!

[@Unbreakable87]

Even if they went with lore they still have huge problems. As the game mechanics doesn't feel like a werewolf at all. There are no bite gifts and sensory gifts and abilities are almost non existent which are key werewolf things. This system was built by vampire lovers who wanted to weaken the werewolves.

[@kredonystus7768]

While I love the lore I have never really liked a WoD game. I'll take Ron Edward's Sorcerer over Mage any day and I'll take Zak Smith's Demon City as a replacement for the "human" experience.

[@ItCameFromTheSkyBeLo]

It absolutely fits. Look at it this way, W20 was written by the most traditional and staunch Garou of that era. And they were wrong on about 60% of the stuff they were teaching Garou.

[@KenLives333]

I am still going to play it. Even if I agree with your vision, I love that book nevertheless. I am going to use this book and make it my own, I'll ignore the woke and safety bullshit and make it hardcore again at my table, I have my own imagination to make it work. And I don't have the money to buy the old editions or the eyes to read old pdfs.

[@PostmortemVideo]

I concur, and will use it with our Tabletopless Vampire game, when reviewing - however - you have to somewhat take the book as is.

[@simoneidson21]

Lmao imagine intentionally wanting to traumatize people. I disagree with the general diction of WOD 5E but the safety advisories and other stuff like that is good. Go to fucking therapy dude

[@joecoo4615]

No idea what to make of this FECK SAFETY TOOLS !!!! Bored of Hell of new games and the other bollocks, We are not idiots and anyone who has issues playing horror, should step away from horror FFS!!!

[@forestjohnson7474]

You mean you bought fire starter

[@paulberry5750]

The oWoD surfed a cultural wave that crashed a long time ago. I'm not nostalgic for the 90's. My time with the Storyteller system wasn't very productive or enjoyable.

[@wrayth3951]

Gehenna ended the vampires just like apocalypse ended werewolves. None if that makes sense.

[@wrayth3951]

It kind of seems to me like they just don't care

[@cannonlowe9068]

If it ain’t woke don’t fix it

[@RaptureVtM]

Wokewolf the Activist

[@RatsofaFeather]

tldr the thumbnail being AI generated slop with an outdated meme perfectly sums up this video. You complain about how people are ‘more sensitive’ to the eugenics bloodline sexual assault dog-breeder simulator 90s edition, then complain about why a game trying to distance itself from that might have safety tools. While that may be oh so much more “dark and brooding” its also stupid sounding to anyone new. You talk about how americans playing Fianna insensitively (rightly so) then complain that you can’t say W*ndigo anymore. This entire video felt hypocritical. Also why did you use the Islamic moon and star symbol at 21:00 ?? Genuinely confused at that one.

[@PostmortemVideo]

Then anyone new is stupid, childish and doesn't appreciate horror. You think that's an Islamic symbol? Are you the same person who thought a game made in 2011 was referencing the current trans-panic and the LGB alliance?

[@RatsofaFeather]

@@PostmortemVideo Sorry that Paradox took zoophiles out of the game cause its just weird and not very scary. And what are you even talking about? The Star and Crescent clip art effect used at 21:00 was a major symbol for the Ottoman Empire and modern day Islam.

[@simoneidson21]

@@PostmortemVideoStop turning my hobby into culture war bullshit. The only snowflakes I see here are you and your fans

[@clairestark9024]

​@@simoneidson21the game 5th is knee deep in culture war concepts wiping ethnicity from the tribes is an an obvious reflection of this as was the hamfisted attempts to make the get fascist.

[@cthulhupthagn5771]

With regards to "safety tools", they have become an industry standard for two reasons - Monte Cooke (an Original creator) has pushed them heavily - down to letting two BDSM enthusiasts pen a free booklet he hosts and distributes....and if they DONT have them they are concerned about social media blowback. They would get blasted for its absence, and then the mob as always starts deep diving into everyone to find more "dirt" to excoriate the company. I think most actual gamers skip right over, much like how Palladium has at the start of every book a statement that none of the demonic stuff is real, and drugs are bad. The only people that use these tools unironically are (IMHO) mentally ill people who want to make every game interactive storytelling so that they can force others into their slash fiction LARPing.

[@PostmortemVideo]

I'M a BDSM enthusiast, and I find them stupid in gaming.

[@penitentialarts]

@@PostmortemVideo Me, too. I have been involved in my local BDSM community for 25+ years. Being careful about consent and safety is very important in that context. I find the need for formalized "safety tools" in tabletop rpgs to be ludicrous. Just be adults and communicate.

[@simoneidson21]

Nice projection at the end there. The fuck is wrong with you people? Don’t be a fucking sadistic sociopath who gets off on intentionally traumatizing people without their consent

[@Zielony_Ork3]

😢

[@Quirrel]

Werewolf the apocalypse more like werewolf the wokeness

[@simoneidson21]

It’s always been like that dude

[@marcusacevedo1]

I disagree with your assessment of the cult of fenris. If you notice they’ve disassociated any culture or nationality with any of the tribes so why would you think the cult is of Nordic descent?

[@PostmortemVideo]

Because it always has been, and that's why - IMNSHO - they got gunshy.

[@marcusacevedo1]

yes in the 20th they were of Nordic descent but in W5 i don't think that is the case. I see the cult as a group of garou with the same mindset. Think of it like the black furies, Mari Cabrah still exists in the universe but she is no longer the typical black fury. The Get still exist but the typical Get is not german.

[@cthulhupthagn5771]

​@@marcusacevedo1I think you are both right. So I lean more towards grim. But it's worth noting that that fenris. Fenris has become a standing for the alt right? So so it's a code word. The current books may imply. It's a concept or idea, but that's only because they want to dodge any responsibility for their weasel word

[@martinbouchard8198]

I don't like 5th edition.

[@dumbghost3109]

sadly the language thing is a necessity in these times. not because the fans want it, but because if the woke people get ahold of it the controversies just arent worth it. At least white wolf is being more realistic and less preachy than dnd was. ill never forget the whole "half elves and half orcs are racist against biracial people" nonsense

[@mugan5011]

It's all Paradox, White Wolf no longer exist, nor as a company nor even as a logo. If we talk about employees, there's only 1 from the 90s, but, he goes around not liking most things of the original game. As a subsidiary company of Paradox, White Wolf a few years ago it got shutdown, when the new people Paradox put in there, they were causing different troubles for them.

[@arty3090]

Overall, your review was well-structured and well-spoken, but there were a lot of really rough assumptions and leaps in logic that I feel unfairly hurt the review. Especially recognizing that the majority of World of Darkness wasn't actually the same continuity or universe (some were just more compatible with others, and each typically had their off-brand shout-out of "wizards" or "lupines" to the other lines) until only the edition before Fifth. Even then, the games were frequently full of retcons, inconsistencies, and vagaries. To that extent, a lot of this feels deeply burdened by personal opinions. With major digs at safety tools, a more grounded setting, themes being "removed" when in actuality they're still plenty viable but not forced or focused on, and changing from the ideas of global warming as a struggle in the 90s and early 00s to our present understanding of climate change feels a lot like someone who's used to french press coffee from home not getting why these youths might be invested in the politics of fair trade coffee, or the convenience and flavor of crummy energy drinks without the flavor. A firm "this wasn't made for me and I was opposed to the idea of it in the first place, and as a result this is a disappointing experience".

[@s.m.g.2166]

Oh shut up 🐱

[@GGninhu]

Imagine being a "creative" and seeing safety tools as "roadblocks"

[@PostmortemVideo]

Imagine being a creative and embracing censorship.

[@simoneidson21]

@@PostmortemVideoIt’s not censorship. It is a basic standard of human decency. Respect consent. Tabletop games, due to their nature, have different playstyles depending on the table.