Equity or equality? | Dr Melissa Derby | The Common Room

What happens when the focus of government and institutions shifts from providing equal opportunities to equal outcomes? Is attempting to bring about equal outcomes a good idea - or even possible? Dr Melissa Derby tests this idea against evidence to see if what we think might be a good idea is actually a good idea in practice.
Script:
Many of us will have seen the cartoon illustrating the differences between equality and equity.
The boxes used to depict equality are all the same height, but these don’t take into consideration the varying heights of the people using the boxes. So, even though they each have an equal-sized box, the shortest person cannot see over the fence, and consequently misses out, which isn’t fair. In the case of equity, however, each person is given the box they need in order to be able to see over the fence and enjoy the rugby game. In other words, everyone’s outcome is the same.
Equality can be defined generally as the state of being equal, or the same, especially regarding the status, rights, or opportunities someone has. Equity is a little harder to define, but where equality means everyone is treated the same, regardless of need or any other individual differences, equity means everyone is provided with what they need to succeed.
But what happens when the focus shifts from equal opportunities to equal outcomes?
Is attempting to bring about equal outcomes a good idea - or even possible?
Well, let’s test it against evidence to see if what we think might be a good idea is actually a good idea in practice.
Let me give you an example. I decide I want to be as good a tennis player as Serena Williams. Now, in order to be a good tennis player, a multitude of different factors have to come together to produce a particular result, and try as I might, I simply don’t have the right combination of skill, dedication, resources, physique, and perseverance, among other things, that she has. So what’s the only way to make me as good as Serena Williams? Well, it’s to bring her down to my level. This is not a good idea, although it’s only a game of tennis. What happens, though, when the idea of equal outcomes makes its way into areas like education, which is exactly what we are seeing?
As I illustrated with my impossible tennis dream, there are many different factors that lead to the outcomes people experience. With so many variables at play, it is impossible that there could ever be equal outcomes for individuals or different groups of people. Siblings, for example, have many things in common, such as shared DNA, common values that they are raised with, and access to similar or the same opportunities. And yet, more often than not, they don’t experience equal outcomes. So, if equal outcomes don’t occur between siblings, where a number of common factors exist, how can we bring about equal outcomes across society when different variables are present? Like I said, it’s impossible.
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[@JenniferCox-cw3wb]

Equity does not mean equal outcomes for all, so the whole argument falls over. Equity is about being fair and reasonable.

[@Jen-oq1bq]

I'm somewhere in the middle... Everyone doesn't have the same access to opportunities and it's fair to try and have an even playing field ... Not for equal outcomes but for equal starting point

[@tipamariful]

I think that the premise that equitable approaches have been trending more towards equal outcomes vs equal opportunities is fallacious. And examples of affirmative action I believe provide a net positive on individuals and society. Your hypothetical is very hyperbolized. It's not like minority groups offered in said programs are similar to your level of tennis expertise compared to Serena Williams. Especially in education, things like the school lunch program heavily lean into ideals of equitable opportunity. Truly equal outcomes are impossible, of course, but it's obtuse to deny that approaches which seek them do make a difference and have positive outcomes for disadvantaged groups in society.

[@davewilliams989]

Yeah nah. Equity (Equality of outcomes) is being used to bludgeon organisations (Gov and Commercial) into accepting they are racist, sexist and other things. The impact is far more than you think it is. What they mean by "Equitable Approaches" is try to force an outcome based on their idealistic view of what should happen without consideration for personal preference or a myriad of other factors.

[@goosoid]

This seemed like a massive strawman arguument. I appreciate she had to condense her arguments, but she has critiqued a policy that any reasonable person would find ridiculous and then said that is the policy in effect. I dont think it is. I also find it frustrating that she did not offer any laternative. So how does Dr Derby think we should address the growing inequality in NZ? Lower taxes, small government, trickle down economics? That is all I ever hear from the centre right and I find those policies a lot less convincing. If this is the best the Common Room can come up with then I wont be engaged for long. I was hoping for some real innovative thinking, not just negativity.

[@davewilliams989]

​@@goosoid No one has found a solution to inequality. To achieve equality of outcome you have to remove freedom of choice. This is where the Pareto principle came from.

[@goosoid]

@@davewilliams989 please point to where I said "solve". You are just throwing up another straw man argument. Inequality will always be with us as people are different and opportunities are different. But we need to reduce, not solve, inequality. There is a limit to how much inequality s society can bear. We are heading in the wrong direction with inequality growing consistently. In the past it was kept under control with taxation and regulation. That is now ideologically unacceptable to a portion of the electorate. And here we are with crime and disorder growing which is inevitable.

[@davewilliams989]

@@goosoid Inequality in NZ is an outcome of hundreds of complex issues. Attempts by our gov have made inequality worse. If you want to reduce unequal outcomes you need to target the underlying causes which in many cases are not what you think they are. So the question is how far can you go before you have to force people to comply against their will? Where is the line? Who enforces equality of outcomes? Who sets the rules? What if someone wont give up what they have earned through doing 60 hour weeks for years when the same category of person chose to work 20 hours of work wants the same lifestyle? The only viable and sustainable option is to ensure equality of opportunity. The only other pathway is making things worse (todays government) or Communist rule which unfortunately has proven in 20 different experiments of the 20th century to collapse into murder and death.

[@dannowell269]

Fantastic video, great channel. Unfortunately many people fail to understand it like this

[@datkinson1635]

her points beg the question, badly.

[@lilianabracanov239]

To be equal is to have nothing

[@datkinson1635]

oh sure oh sure. So in Big City New Zealand if you just get a 'starter gift' of 120k from your parents, inherit 150k, put 90k in KiwiSaver you can buy some lil wooden boxes to live in. Who wants to sleep outside? The Ayn Rand mob? The idiocracy? "DOCTORS" ? ?

[@winstonsmithsoul]

Equity is not possible and has never been achieved anywhere or any time in history..... T. Sowell.

[@mikebarton]

"mass social engineering programmes which will never work"?? Really? Proof/evidence to support that? And as for 01:46 where in NZ had this been proposed? 🤔

[@Josh-eu1vr]

affirmaive action at universities for example medical schools accepting by ethnicity over skills

[@mikebarton]

@@Josh-eu1vr and they've never worked? Is that what you're saying? 🤔

[@pascaledelos7537]

@@Josh-eu1vrthis is called positive discrimination. In any country that has put this in practice, it is not meant to stay. It is a temporary situation until it feels (or looks from stats for instance) that all social/ethnic groups have reached an equal opportunity level. I suggest you do a bit of introspection to determine what your personal circumstances were, when it comes to opportunities from birth!

[@datkinson1635]

just assume the FSU audience have no idea how the political economy or asset management works in this country.

[@mikebarton]

@@datkinson1635 👍

[@freddynz]

What an excellent video !

[@mikebarton]

*Judging by this video appointing Melissa Derby as Race Commissioner is a very strange decision.*

[@NzLand3r]

Thomas Sowell = subbed!

[@dannowell269]

Facts lol instant sub

[@johnsimmons831]

Love what you guys are doing. This is chicken soup for the NZ populace.

[@MarkVrankovich]

Good stuff. It will make all the right people angry, and hopefully spread some common sense to the rest.

[@Hot4Thot]

If Equality means the same Rights, Status and Opportunities and Equity is "harder to define"... so obviously the only good option is Equality. Why would I support somethi g that is illdefined, or defined in the moment by a group of individuals who have been given authority. Authority by who? Equity is clearly nonsense

[@datkinson1635]

Dumb and dumber with Free Speech Union ninny "Dr" Melissa Derby. (HAVING A POSTGRAD FROM CANTERBURY DOESN'T REALLY MEAN "DOCTOR", OKAY ? ?)

[@pascaledelos7537]

Could have been a very interesting vid. On the contrary this korero feels very twisted intellectually from the start.. dropping the Equity concept because it is… too difficult to grasp (what?!). Undermining the concept (and consequently the implementation/funding/etc) of equality under the pretext that equal outcomes are ‘impossible’ shows an intellectually and morally wrong thinking/behaviour. No political party is advocating for all to become doctors, scientists, writers, artists, etc.. This korero eventually makes this Dr sound stupid!

[@awaitingstimulus8507]

Melissa Derby vs Serena Williams

[@jessicaparsons7396]

What a load of...false equivalence.

[@bennichols1113]

We don't have equality in NZ and equity is built into life so its irrelevant.

[@bennichols1113]

So are you interested in the NZ HRC on equality and discrimination? Their position is that men are superior. They explain that discrimination is not bad and should be used in their push for equity. And yes they said equity.