Escalation of violence

Subscribe to my channel: kzbin.info...
Support me on Patreon: / lindybeige
More weapons and armour videos here: • Weapons and armour
In real life, people seldom come to blows. Arguments may get heated, there may even be some fist-waving and shouting, but normal sane people seldom go further than a show of aggression and perhaps a shove or an object thrown to miss. In role play games, however, people get to drawn swords almost every session. Perhaps this ought to stop.
▼ Follow me...
Twitter: / lindybeige I may have some drivel to contribute to the Twittersphere, plus you get notice of uploads.
Facebook: / lindybeige (it's a 'page' and now seems to be working).
Google+: "google.com/+lindybeige"
website: www.LloydianAspects.co.uk
Escalation of violence
/ user "Lindybeige"

[@sartanko]

This could be a Monty Python sketch. "Oh aggression level 1 is it"

[@adolfcritler4299]

progresses to pinch the opposing soldier :D

[@sartanko]

"Ooow ow, aggression level 2, you see that? That was a aggression level 2!" I can totally see it.

[@adolfcritler4299]

Me too! That moment really made my day haha

[@sartanko]

Siedler Joe No, Loretta left and joined the popular front.

[@elbobo100]

He forgot the part where the police are called and kids have to go to court for being kids

[@captainshays6191]

Skyrim logic: takes someone's spoon, guards shoots you in the head with an arrow

[@slendy9600]

Justin Leo or some goons have come to murder you so while your shooting them with arrows by yourself because the guards wont help a stray arrow hits a chicken and the guards take the goons side

[@deriznohappehquite]

or you have Stormcloak Rebels ambushing a local guard patrol, you attack one of the rebels, and one of the guards arrests you for assault.

[@oz_jones]

Oblivion: move someones mug. "IT'S ALL OVER, LAWBREAKER!"

[@Telsion]

They were merciful, at least they didn't shoot you in the knee

[@Ronirvan]

In the knee.

[@wishuhadmyname]

then there is the Machiavellian school of thought: "if injury is to be done to a man, it should be so severe his vengeance need not be feared"

[@phantomwhite7972]

+TheFormHater There's always the risk that your escalation of violence is not enough to scare the attacker away or debilitate him though, and he also escalates by the same degree. That would probably leave you dead!

[@blitzkrieg2928]

machiavellli was right

[@johnbrewington2539]

Machiavelli wrote "the Prince" specifically to puff up King Henry VIII. Henry sets the rules, and the men he has to consider injuring are dukes, barons, and peasants. Almost none of Machiavelli's advice was beneficial to England when applied to interaction with other monarchs. Machiavellian tactics are not designed for working with social equals.

[@CivilizedWasteland]

That's for dealing with the people who are too stupid to fear you superior strength, so it's not a huge degree of escalation

[@KaterinaRuud]

Hm. Reminds me of the Treaty of Versailles ...

[@JohnDoe-on6ru]

3:44: -Imagine you are a teacher watching this escalation of violence -**Sees kid stab other kid with pencil** -"Welp, time to escalate this." **Pulls out sword**

[@isgdre]

Um. I feel I have to point out the obvious. The objective in most modules is to kill all the bad things and steal all the loot. This is a radically different objective then most people's real life. Or at least I hope it is.

[@lindybeige]

isgdre In dungeon-crawl-type scenarios, yes. But role playing can be so much more.

[@isgdre]

Lindybeige Ok, I was referring to old AD&D pre done modules. I assume your referring to a different type.

[@TheVefIt]

isgdre the problem is the I've seen and Lloyd probably did to, lots of people solving simple tavern arguments with random people, by cutting them in half with their bigass sword...

[@TheZyanas]

Lindybeige This is true. I remember a D&D session where we had one player (lets call him "Bob") who was more used to quests that involved murdering all the monsters, but our DM was running a game more about political intrigue and diplomacy. Bob had his character use Detect Evil on one of the NPCs, and instead of calmly informing the rest of the characters in the group, "Hey, this guy is trying to set us up", proceeded to attack with deadly force. When another PC tried to restrain Bob's character using non-lethal force, he attacked her as well, assuming (incorrectly) that she was a spy. The consequences were swift, brutal and permanently altered the game. Between the PC defending herself, the rest of us jumping in to defend her, and the bodyguards of the NPC, he was dead before his next turn, having never told anyone his reasons for attacking suddenly in an otherwise peaceful (if tense) negotiation. He was never revived, because the other characters drew the natural conclusion that he must have been the spy in our ranks and stopped looking for the real spy. Additionally, we never found out we were being set up--the fact that the "spy" in our group was so against the alliance that he would risk blowing his cover wide open reassured our characters that they could trust this new faction of NPCs, and we went from cautiously working with them on occasion to happily working for them whenever they asked a favor.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

isgdre Interestingly though, D&D remains the most popular RPG for pen/paper tabletop. When people think RPG, they think D&D. D&D isn't really suitable for any other type of game.

[@BaslerJones]

What I got from this, if you don't want to get shanked, don't bully the quiet kid in class

[@zak_161]

Life lesson: respond with more aggression that originally given to prevent further attacks

[@John-iv2oz]

+Basler Jones Have you ever read the Book Ender's Game or seen the movie? You escalate a fight to win all future fits in one swoop.

[@DrCruel]

John Miranda Not so much win as deter. But yeah.

[@YHLGguitargeek]

+Basler Jones That should have been obvious. :p

[@vaclav_fejt]

+Basler Jones As a former the quiet kid, I second this. He/she just wants to be left alone.

[@vincenturquhart1370]

Imagine shoving some kid in the playground and he immediately pulls out his +5 sword of bifurcation and uses the decapitate ability.

[@virtuallyreal5849]

Glocks are more common

[@yeetoburrito9972]

@@virtuallyreal5849 lmaooooo

[@PenandBlade]

I like how punching someone and stabbing them with a pencil are equivalent aggression levels

[@LordPharoahMaster]

A punch to the head can easily kill if you hit your head on the way down, unless the pencil hits an artery you'll probably be fine Deaths from fistfights are much more common than you'd think

[@WorthlessWinner]

@@LordPharoahMaster - he was specifically talking about kids fistfighting right, they're less likely to do as much damage

[@LordPharoahMaster]

@@WorthlessWinner That's a fair point, but a child could still hit his head if he falls as a result of the punch, and children have soft skulls

[@TheF0xskibidbopmmdada]

@@LordPharoahMaster espiciallly if he falls on a sharp rock

[@gabemerritt3139]

@@LordPharoahMaster In that case shoving is more deadly, if you are shoving eachother on concrete

[@KorKhan89]

I remember being slightly annoyed by one situation you encounter early on in the first Baldur's Gate game. An idiot in a tavern decides to pick a fight with you, as NPCs often do in RPGs upon encountering a party of tough-looking, heavily armed player characters. Your two options are to either be a wimp and agree to leave the tavern, in which case he backs down, OR to start a fight. This is just one unarmoured guy using his fists, the damage he causes is minimal and you'd have zero trouble taking him out. the problem is that the only way to get him to stop attacking you after the fight starts is to kill him. He never stops otherwise. Considering that the character I was roleplaying was a generally upstanding sort of fellow, but not a complete pushover, turned this into a bit of a dilemma. What's worse is that after you kill him, his mate (who'd kept out of the fight) even asks you what kind of monster you are for just brutally murdering some drunken idiot!

[@paununs8719]

KorKhan89 I would always have a couple of Charm Person spells, otherwise yeah, you're forced to kill/punch them. But to be honest that guy deserved it :D

[@blkgardner]

KorKhan89 i recall a quest in Morrowind when you have to deal with some hippie Nord who was blocking an entrance to a ebony mine. Instead of just killing him, you had to punch him until he decided to move. (In Morrowind, punches hurt fatigue, instead of health, until fatigue reaches zero and the character collapses.) However, that felt really contrived, since you normally deal with problems with violence.

[@danioshea]

KorKhan89 If you're referring to the chap in Felepost's Inn in Beregost, you can actually convince him he's a bit of a twit, and you XP for talking him down.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

KorKhan89 Isn't baldurs gate the same game that causes the paladin to fall from grace for getting drunk? I love D&D.

[@StoneCrabBongo]

KorKhan89 Pau Nuns You can talk him out of fighting you and he leaves you alone. It's a difficult option since he's so stubborn, but it is possible. Once you take this route you discover he's only drunk and angry with you because his son chose to be an adventurer when meeting people like you and got himself killed.

[@weeaboomatt2762]

I knew a kid who could go to aggression level 72 for no reason. The school I went to was having a field day and they were giving out hot dogs. I decided to go get a hot dog for myself and my friend said to me "hey can you get me one too?" so I say yes and went to where they were. I picked up 2 hot dogs when a huge angry lady screams at me "YOU CAN'T TAKE MORE THAN ONE!!!". So I say to her I'm taking it to my friend and I continue walking. as I'm walking back I instantly get shoved to the ground and this crazy kid is hitting me. I was in total shock and pushed him off of me. Some other kids came to help me and adults also came over. I was bleeding a lot because I was pushed into an area with a lot of rocks. Also the hot dogs were ruined because they landed in rocks and got dirty too. Moral of the story don't take more than 1 hot dog from the angry fat lady or her son will shove you into a pile of rocks.

[@PaulTheSkeptic]

I hope he at least got in trouble.

[@weeaboomatt2762]

Paul TheSkeptic I don't think he did actually, because his mom was like the principles number 1 assistant.

[@PaulTheSkeptic]

Matt That's messed up.

[@hashaborgonja]

Kid knows how to stand up for his mum.

[@riks081]

Yeah sounds like you were being cheeky hey just throwing "it's for my friend" out casually while walking off, probably showing off for your friend. Got wrecked by her kid for your lack of respect, sucked in.

[@Haren94]

As far as real life goes, though: the 'regular' escalation of violence can lead to some serious harm to both sides, after a while. Jumping straight to lol 72 will likely shock the attacker and make him unwilling to escalate, thus avoiding any harm done to the defending party. Am I not right?

[@joshuahadams]

The reason the Cold War didn't heat up as much as it could, isn't it?

[@Haren94]

***** Cold War didn't heat up as much as it could is because one side collapsed prematurely. Also, both sides were capable of lvl 728 of violence, therefore locking each other in a stalemate.

[@StumpfForFreedom]

+Haren94 'Rapid Dominance Doctrine" also known as "shock and awe" It's highly effective.

[@naphackDT]

+Haren94 Of course, if we just launch intercontinental missiles because they dared to capture our ship that veered into their territory, it will show them, we mean business and they shouldn't escalate any further.

[@StumpfForFreedom]

Well, that's more like accidentally bumping into someone in a bar, you apologize, even if they spun around all angry, because you bumped them first.

[@Grymbaldknight]

Aggression Level 72, otherwise known as the ''Sir Lancelot at Swamp Castle Effect''. I wonder if that whole sequence was made to parody the very concept expressed in the video. It honestly wouldn't surprise me.

[@blitzkrieg2928]

"i got carried away"

[@britishofficersdontduck9928]

“You’ve gone and kicked the bride in the chest!”

[@The-Penniless-Gent]

I blame the idioms

[@sharpuslf]

35 years later, I still have a piece of pencil stuck in my shoulder because of "That kid"

[@GS-zx1kk]

sharpuslf lol

[@sharpuslf]

Rock Golem Well...ok I stabbed him with a protractor first...but that never left a lasting mark :P

[@FondlesHandles]

your body never broke down or ejected the piece? you'd think that after 35 years, it would have dissolved or something.

[@sharpuslf]

Yeah, I honestly thought it would be gone in 6 months...but nope...still there.

[@DamienZshadow]

I have a graphic dot on my neck, just missed my trachea when I was running with a pencil in my hand like a god damn idiot and tripped.

[@puskajussi37]

This reminds me of one instance of playing TES 3 Morrowind. I went to a bar and got a mission to pacify an agressive person without bloodshed. You could either talk or knock him out and I went for the later. I was specialized in blunt weapons for their obvious murder-factor. However the knocking out required unarmed skill and seriously who would train in that. So I proceed to combat him. However since I cannot just bash his face in I cannot finish the fight fast. Also altough my punches had barely no effect due lack of training his ones did a number on me, wore my stamina out and stunlocked until he beat me to death. Multiple times. So thats the result: my overpowered monster slayer, literally champion of half of the known gods, gets beaten to death by a random drunkard because aforementioned hero didn't know how to defend against an opponent specificly without an weapon.

[@mrrhombus716]

Haha I know that fight, In Tribunal. I was so strong by that point I couldn't die to him but couldn't do enough fatigue damage either. So I could either attempt to punch him 1500 times to level up or just leave...

[@larsrons7937]

Great story, thanks for sharing with us. I love Morrowind. Luckily Skyrim has a remedy for that situation: "Gloves of the Pugilist". Those gloves really pack a serious punch.

[@gewgulkansuhckitt9086]

Yeah, I had to go to aggression level 2 once. Some guy shoved me in the playground at school. So I whipped out my flamethrower and the other guy had just enough time to say, "Hey! That's not aggression level t. . . ." *whoosh* To this day I'm not sure what he meant to say. But he's lucky I wasn't really mad or anything.

[@icarus9097]

Responding violence with equally leveled violence will only escalate violence. Responding violence with higher, but not unreasonable level of violence (like responding a shove with a nose punch, but not with a stab) is more likely to shock the attacker and stop the violence altogether. The more people practice it, the less likely they'll be to initiate violence. If you are sure that shoving another person is going to result in you having your nose broken, you won't shove them.

[@brandoncowan9029]

While I agree that jumping to level 72 is a bad thing, maybe jumping to like level 5 or 6 isn't so much. It could stop it right there, where a normal progression could take it higher.

[@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug]

Brandon Cowan Yes. When I was a kid, I wasn't the largest or strongest kid (in fact I was average, but all my classmates were quite a lot larger than average), so if I had answered back the same way I would get in a fight I could not win. So my two main strategies was threatening with any improvised weapon I could find nearby (like a big branch, a baseball bat or a big pole even); not really to try to hurt them but to scare them off (I think I almost never really hit anyone, and if I did it was a glancing blow to an arm or leg to show them I meant it). If I had no available weapons (or if there were adults around), I would throw myself to the ground and wrap myself around (ideally both) their lower legs and hold tight. They could not kick me, because their legs were locked, if they tried to lean down and punch me, or tried to sit down on me I would twist their legs forward so they would either fall or have to cancel the attack. These strategies gave me a reputation for being "crazy" and people mostly left me alone even though i was clearly one of the physically weakest kids (but probably one of the most creative ones).

[@deck444]

Brandon Cowan Exactly! If I know that the other guy is not gonna back away with a push or a pinch it´s better to just give him something that is enough to put him in is place strait away. That behavior will signal the others that if they want to mess with me they will suffer some serious consequence which in the long run will protect me from numerous "pushes and pinches".

[@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug]

Stein Gauslaa Strindhaug Wrapping yourself around someones legs while they try to fight you, may sound crazy, but I could take down kids several years older than me and almost twice my height; in fact it's easier to do on tall people because their center of mass is higher up relative to you. They would usually give up in embarrassment after I've felled them to the ground, but if they did continue it would not be a fistfight but a wrestling match where I already had the advantage of having their legs in a lock. Though this was probably quite an over escalation (wrestling someone to the ground as a response to a minor shove or even just an insult), teachers and other grownups that saw it usually never got angry with me. If they interveined it was usually to pull the bigger kid off me if they continued the fight on the ground.

[@brandoncowan9029]

Stein Gauslaa Strindhaug I tended to get away with pure intimidation. My favorite line for getting out of fights was, "Sorry. I don't want to get in trouble for beating the shit out of you." Then just walk away like a badass. I mean, it was probably more that I left then that I said something clever, but saying something clever made it easier to leave. Trying to convince the other guy that you are very dangerous, without having to prove it is a very useful skill. A kid once pulled a knife on me, all I did was put my hand in my empty pocket and make a fist and said, "If we do this, it doesn't end well for either of us." Then again, just walked the fuck away, of course keeping an eye on the asshole because I didn't want to get stabbed in the back.... That was also the day I started carrying a collapsible baton on me at pretty much all times expect on school grounds... I didn't want to be caught with a weapon and get expelled. That's when I saw a kid wearing a heavy chain as a belt. No one bothered him about it, so I started doing the same. Thankfully never had to use it.

[@SmigGames]

Brandon Cowan Because physical violence is such a big danger to our lives, people usually escalate up until the line of all-out war. No one usually wants to cross that line, so they escalate by small increments in order not to lose face - until there's a way out. A way out could be established between both people, depending on their dialogue; or more easily by the people around them, by stepping in between - at which point I notice both participants making it look like they're escalating to level 701 because there's no consequence and the conflict is resolved. To your point, by escalating too fast might take you over the line before the situation can be diffused so you might be putting yourself in a lot of danger needlessly; and in case of strangers, you never know who you're dealing with and what sort of martial arts training they might have.

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

I'm not sure that punishing escalation fits very well with the Warhammer 40k universe but I see what you mean. Warhammer 40k RP logic: Someone insults you, shoot them. Someone insults them self, clearly affected by the warp, shoot them. Someone insults someone else, shoot them both. Someone steals your weapon, drown them in hyper-masculine mildew, then shoot them. Someone shoots you, come back as grotesque shambling monstrosity and kill everyone they've ever known... Then shoot them... A door is locked, shoot it. A door is slightly ajar but not fully opened, grenade (for a bit of contrast). Something moved, shoot it. Something *used* to move, shoot it again. Basically. Edit: Someone posts this on youtube, purge them (apparently).

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

enoughofyourkoicarp Prepare to be purged. *fishes out the purge blender 9000 from the cupboard*

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

Usammity For the emperawr! *explodes in a shower of allergy triggering fur*

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

enoughofyourkoicarp Yiff in hell furfag *summons inquisitor*

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

Usammity Nuuuuu. D:

[@oz_jones]

enoughofyourkoicarp Peacetalking HERESY! PREPARE TO BE PURGED!

[@askhowiknow5527]

The kid doesn't get messed with again if he goes level 72

[@slendy9600]

Lewis Johnson almost true. the problem is theres often one meat head who reckons he can handle level 72 and get some street cred out of it so he picks a fight, gets stabbed and the other kid ends up getting sectioned

[@lolbosss]

My experience: a girl picking on a silent kid constantly with here friends with verbal and physical (constant kicking) abuse. At the end of the year he calmly walked up to her after class with her friends to use an air soft gun to shoot her in the eyes or ears of the bullies when he emptied the clip he later used the iron sights to ruin their face with the words "you were lucky It was just me"

[@bugrilyus]

@@lolbosss daFuq dude

[@sandroxino]

aggression lvl 42 SCHOOL SHOOTING

[@azkni]

thats lower than a pencil stabbing

[@geennaam1201]

yeah and if you do it properly bullets don't hurt so in that way, it's an even lower level than shoving as that does hurt (kinda) so school shooting lv 0 aggression?

[@JohnSmith-qy2fh]

RNGesus 1:35

[@adrenochromejunkie]

Aggression lvl 142 Converting to Islam. ;^)

[@malis9045]

RNGesus Agression level 254: Convert to Christianity and live in Skandinavia

[@Xearrik]

I was waiting for you to say. "Right, I'll do you for that!" ^^

[@isgdre]

0_o Xearrik Gaming Channel "Alright we'll call it a draw then"

[@wellingtonmcskellington4833]

"You'll what?!"

[@amitabhakusari2304]

Someone make a game with Lindy's dialogues.

[@TheFabulousRBK]

I was involved in a group that couldn't handle escalation well. We were speaking with a necromancer whose apprentice decided to draw a blade. One of my party members responded by casting a spell that pureed the apprentice's internals. There were consequences for the players actions, he got upset about it, and he never played with us again.

[@Metal-Spark]

TheFabulousRBK Seems like a pretty OP spell. What were the consequences?

[@TheFabulousRBK]

Obsidiax he had tried using it for the past three sessions but the our dm abuses wards. The consequence was losing 5 levels.

[@samuel5742]

TheFabulousRBK I think your DM went to Consequences Level 72.

[@lukutiss1324]

Skylar D'beer Agreed. Sounds like a poor DM tbh.

[@Metal-Spark]

TheFabulousRBK That seems like a very meta-punishment. I don't think your DM handled that very well.

[@jwkennington]

There are 5 levels of escalation: I dare you I double dare you I double dog dare you I triple dare you I triple dog dare you It is a breach of aggression etiquette to skip levels.

[@Valenspire]

Solution to violence ~ click target type "setav agression 0"

[@ragnarokstravius2074]

Better solution: (press button below escape) type "killall" No one will bother you anymore.

[@MulderStarling]

The "killall" cheat got so ingrained in my psyche that I used to use it in dreams whenever nightmares started bothering me. It was very convenient.

[@LordBaktor]

Even worse when there's magic involved: - He shoved me first! - And you responded with a fucking fireball!?! Are you out of your mind? - Opita Namora... - Don't you dare throwing a fireball at me, you idiot!

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

+Lord Baktor also the fireball kills 2-3 peasants close by. But nobody cares, they had already the trouble of being peasants, and poor, and now have the problem of being npcs as well. lol

[@PDeRop]

+Lord Baktor The teacher will have to make the fireball thrower write some lines.. these kids today..

[@willboucher9336]

+Lord Baktor Magic sucks the puss off a dead Balrog's putrifying scrotum.

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

Will Boucher that escalation

[@willboucher9336]

Lucas Lemos exactly

[@PaladinGear15]

You can do non lethal damage, you can also pinch someone, slap them, or shove them. You just SAY it, sorry but I think you miss the point. Garry Gygax himself said "The thing about D&D is, you don't need the rules, it is a guideline" so a DM worth a penny is gonna say "oh you wanna slap him? well you take him off guard, and you slap him in the face, his cheek is now slightly red with notable finger marks" or something, probably won't require a roll, and definitely won't require a damage die.

[@drizzt7dourden7]

+PaladinGear15 well it would most likely take a roll but yea mostly stuff like that does no or very little dmg... and im not shre what versions of D&D hes playing but as far as i know D&D fist dmg is 1d4 (unless monk) while other games have even less without some special feats or equipment

[@PaladinGear15]

drizzt7dourden7 Who gets slapped and EXPECTS to get slapped? especially by someone who kills goblins, orcs, demons, liches, and dragons? I've seen people get slapped and been slapped, doesn't take much effort at all to do it, I doubt a hero would require a DC of 15 or higher to do something anyone can do, only if the DM's a hardass and insists rolls for pretty much anything. By the way; a smart DM won't make you almost kill someone by slapping them! that's retarded, so rolling 1d4+6 when the civilian has 3HP is idiotic as hell. Never DM, a roll like you described is something you do when you want to kill a guy.

[@drizzt7dourden7]

***** well since AC is based (mostly) on your reflexes and the armor you wear it all depends on those factors... (like try slapping someone wearing a full helmet or a fidgety rogue...) also i never said it should be a super dificult role but if the situation is tense the opponent might expect something to happen and will try to avoid it (even if its just a slap whitch he wouldnt know at that time...) lastly yes full dmg and stad modifyer on normal hit would be a bit op (especially if the NPC have that low health... im playing the dragonage P&P and most NPCs have HP amounts allmost as high as first lvl PCs ^^ one example for starting NPC health would be 20 + Constitution + 1d6)

[@PaladinGear15]

drizzt7dourden7 I stopped reading your comment as soon as I noticed the copious amounts of "hey look what I know" at the end of it. I don't get what your problem is, OR the problem of the maker of this video is. He said like "somone says a bad thing so the D&D guy pulls out a sword and kills him" that's idiotic. Either both of you have never played D&D before, or you've been doing it wrong. BTW: NO a D&D NPC would NOT be 20 + Constitition + 1d6, that would make them about 3 times stronger than the heroes you play as. You're thinking of something else entirely, or you're making crap up. Google "D&D 3.0 PDF" before you try to teach a guy who's played the game; how to play the game.

[@drizzt7dourden7]

***** ähhh... "im playing the dragonage P&P and most NPCs have HP amounts allmost as high as first lvl PCs" maybe read the comment befor commenting ^^ secondly what "hey look what i know"? i stated the fakts and gave an example on how other systems do it ^^

[@migkillerphantom]

I was that kid in kindergarten. Made people a lot less willing to fuck with me, but yes, I didnt make many friends. They would also occasionally gang up and tease me, running away in different directions. Occasionally, because getting caught meant a world of pain. I never did understand the low intensity shit. Don't fuck with me if you don't want to get fucked up.

[@st0ox]

i don't get that low intensity shit either.

[@ErnestMouse]

Are you Ender Wiggin?

[@fiefdomofumbria6590]

thats real edgy

[@loganswanson9784]

I remember one time in grade school some kid tried to steal my drawing and i stabbed him with a pencil. Didn't fuck with me again right up until he moved. I still had plenty of friends, they just knew not to fuck with my stuff.

[@loganswanson9784]

olaolapepsiman Quite a bit of a gap there between schoolyard violence between boys and hitting a girl for no reason, even at that age.

[@scottfast7809]

The aggressive level demonstration reminded me of something Monty Python would do

[@TPeters321]

I tried to do follow the laws of escalation, but it didn't work. I was playing a Half-Dragon Cleric and we were in a tavern. Some guy walked into another one of the players and the player accidentally spilled the NPC's drink. The NPC was a local brawler and tried to fight the player. I intervened to break up the fight and then he wanted to fight me instead. He threw the first punch and the second. At this point I decided it was time for me to just knock him out. It should be noted that my strength was 32. We were playing 3.5 so that worked out to be a +11 Str. Anyhow, I turn around and punch him and roll a nat 20. I roll to confirm and get another 20. "You punch the brawler so hard you erase him from existence. He doesn't just turn into pink mist. I'd like to be totally clear here. You punched him so hard the atoms and subatomic particles that made up his existence themselves no longer exist. You punch him so hard you did the impossible and destroyed matter. His grandson will be born with a permanent blackeye. The bartender and surrounding crowd look on at you in utter amazement and fear."

[@slendy9600]

Tyler Peters that was an amazing DM

[@jamiekrutzfeldt3522]

Tyler Peters rn jesus was with you

[@RainAngel111]

Tyler Peters should've declared a non lethal hit

[@nasserfirelordarts6574]

It was the moment he realised, he fucked up

[@mickaleneduczech8373]

Another player and I, both half-ogres, were arguing over which direction to go, almost exactly like the situation you described, when we hit upon a non-violent way to settle it. I yelled "toss the hobbit!" He grabbed the nearest hobbit and threw him up in the air while I yelled "Heads!" Sadly, it then turned violent when I accused him of using a loaded hobbit.

[@Nekranon]

Perhaps "that kid without many friends and didn't talk alot" who retaliated with aggression level 72 was sick and tired of constantly being the target of everyone's unprovoked aggression level 1 that he had no choice but to snap and escalate it to level 72?

[@flyingsky1559]

Perhaps indeed

[@OldOneTooth]

The lone state vs the one with allies.

[@andrewharper1609]

I was like that with my younger brother. Although I didn't use weapons other than fists and kicks. I put up with 6 months of provocation before I snapped.

[@jeffs1546]

Speaking from experience?

[@leiladekwatro3147]

this is what a lot of teachers need to understand

[@user-hd9st2nd7y]

punishment? have you tried to kill a chiken in skyrim?

[@TheZarkoc]

And then theres me the cleric, the crazy peroson who had the audacity to point out that killing unarmed captives for no reason would be an act of evil and I would have to kill them. Killed two party members in that campaing for that reason. You're right about the aggresion levels problem in RPG's, especialy when players chose to be chaotic neutral and think it gives them a lisence to be a serial killer. Btw whats your oppinion on the aligment system in DnD,Pathfinder and the like.

[@Connorcj1]

Zarko Cekovski Yeah, that is a sadly common problem. Unless trying to play as paladins or clerics, people can get pretty blase about torture and pointless killing. I also find people who play neutral as a sociopath. Good is actually ranging from normal to holy; neutral is sociopathic; evil is sadistic, and being evil generally for the point of being evil.

[@ryanbecker6713]

Zarko Cekovski I think the official alignment explanations are garbage, it's better for each group to discuss a common understanding of each term, Neutral, Good, Evil, Chaotic, and Lawful. I currently play a CN character (Leaning towards CG) and I feel that the CN alignment should reflect a sort of Nietzschian egoism rather than crazed whim.

[@Connorcj1]

Ryan Becker Yeah. I don't see neutral as oblivious to moral quandary; it's a shade of grey. "Sure, if I want a magic sword I'll steal a magic sword. I'm not going to murder the guy and his family for it." (Although such an event would 9/10 end up with the PC murdering the dude to avoid facing punishment.) Alignment isn't great because it can pigeon hole character behavior - but I find it useful for people to have an idea of their character at creation.

[@Tuchulu]

Zarko Cekovski I think there should be a step between neutral and good, as in "I feel bad for your predicament but not enough to risk my life unless some reasonable reward and fame come with it"

[@TheZarkoc]

Marc Latorre I think of that as neutral good. It really depends on how you roleplay your char.

[@davekent6023]

I was quite intrigued by what he was saying until he started talking about D&D...

[@lindybeige]

Dave Kent Yes, it made the video more niche, but the problem exists in other media too - films, books etc.

[@GunFunZS]

Dave Kent Ditto. But I've worked in law enforcement and also law, and many institutions are built around the notion of escalating force. IMO it is a very flawed model which creates more net violence, and distributes the violence more or less equally between the aggressor and the innocent party. It also assumes that somehow the victim will know in advance that the person who was unreasonable enough to instigate conflict will then follow a "reasonable" progression of his unreasonable aggression.

[@LionofCaliban]

GunFun ZS Which never works or happens, and if people have had anything like my background, history, smacking people before they're going to attack is the best option. As you might be able to work out, there's not many happy years in my education before university.

[@GunFunZS]

There Be Game Yes, if they swagger and give you enough notice that they are about to attack.

[@JJAB91]

Dave Kent Why?

[@anubseran4774]

1:15 i was mesmerized and i wanted it to go all the way to murder

[@user-tt6wf9dl8n]

+anubseran4774 Same

[@lazartoncev1614]

I tought it would lead to nuclear war

[@PvblivsAelivs]

I don't know. If the shoving was both deliberate and unprovoked, escalating to "level 72" might persuade others not to act aggressively toward the guy. The important bit here is that the initial target _doesn't want to be in that situation in the first place._

[@MisterZimbabwe]

Hahahahahaha oh boy, we had one of those players in our 5e group! Fortunately the GM dealt with him smartly... several times. The guy was playing a Warforged Monk, thought he was Robo-Korra and could fight anything. He even explicitly stated "5e is only for fighting so if we're not fighting we're not playing the game right.". The rubbed the GM the wrong way considering he had spent the better part of two weeks creating an original setting only for it to all be written off as "Lol who cares just kill". So this monk helps the rest of us guard a caravan travelling through hostile territory, and as soon as we stop for a rest the Warforged decides he's bored and sets off into the woods to "fight a bear". So the GM gave him a bear to fight. A Were-Bear. Keep in mind we're all level 3 at this point. The Monk goes down in 2 swipes from the Were-Bear, who then promptly transforms back into his human form and yells at the warforged "What the hell man?!? Who just goes around attacking people in the wild for no reason?!? What'd I ever do to you?!?". For whatever reason, the Warforged player didn't learn anything from that, and the next opportunity he had, he started a bar brawl during our next rest stop. In an Ork Village. Now in this custom setting, Orks aren't just dumb brutes. They're strong as hell and have an aggressive streak a mile wide, but they're not unreasonable or stupid. He made that very clear by describing their village as primitive in architecture but still sporting modern conviniences found in other villages. So Robo-Monk immediately decides to walk into the nearest bar, which is full of Orks lacking their inhibitions, and deliberately antagonizes them. The GM tries to throw the player a bone and says the orks are friendly, happy drunks rather than angry ones and simply try to hug him and invite him to sing with them in a chorus of pub songs. Monk character sticks to his D&D philosopyh of "This game is only for killing" and proceeds to deck on of the orks in the schnoz. A bar of 20 or so Orks were on his ass faster than flies at an all you can shit buffet. Beaten down mercilessly within the first round of combat. And then the Ork Janissaries showed up and kicked his ass some more and threw him in prison. And that's how he learned that you can do more than just fight in D&D.

[@oz_jones]

Two years later: I am sorry that you had *_that player_* in your group. Glad that they learned the lesson.

[@W4ldgeist]

My girlfriend yells "Lindybeige" whenever one of your video ends before you do. She never watches one of them, but really likes that end-card yell for some reason :D

[@MulderStarling]

"Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge." - Niccolò Machiavelli

[@girlbuu9403]

I am sorry, no. I might not stab you, but if you come up and shove me, pinch me, or stamp on my foot out of the blue you initiated violence against me. In an RPG or real life, prepare for a punch in the face.

[@yellowtheyellow]

+Girl Buu Or prepare to be transformed into chocolate, it depends.

[@bobsaggat]

I gotta say lindy it seems like you've had some really crappy game Masters

[@StuSaville]

aggression level 1 - aggression level 1 aggression level 2 - aggression level 3 aggression level 5 - aggression level 8 ... "Hey everyone the math nerds are fighting again!"

[@darkstar7988]

Came for some cool historical stuff. Received a+ idea on a new homebrew rule I love this channel.

[@Ales100001]

I feel as though I'd really enjoy playing DND with you, Lindybeige. The exact problem I have with most DM's. :T

[@danielhale1]

What about people playing a natural instigator? I would hope they're in the clear. Think of the the party rogue who stabs his way through otherwise non-aggressive social situations, and breaks into any and all locked rooms just to loot the place. He needs a place in adventurer society too! Or will you villainize and punish him for what you deem to be villainous behavior? That's adventurer profiling! You can't judge players by the nature of their actions, their openly stated intent, or their long, established history of past actions. The nerve of some city guards. And civilians. Merchants. Gods. Fellow party members. And don't get me started on the mind-controlling wizard. He gets enough flak already, give him a break.

[@Nixitur]

Well, it depends. The GM definitely shouldn't dish out meta-game (deleveling) or deus ex machina (a god shows up and goes "That random NPC was a devout follower of me and now you shall die, puny PC!") punishment in that case. But you could and should have the other NPCs react accordingly.

[@danielhale1]

Nixitur A serious answer to an insane question. :) Though a proper rogue is actively sneaking and blaming other PCs & NPCs for his actions. Unless he's just too lazy to hide bodies and plant evidence, in which case he should resort to open bribery, or avoid leaving witnesses.

[@1FrankJaeger1]

This made me think a lot more than I thought it would have (Not just about games that is)... Thank you.

[@hashaborgonja]

The kid going directly to level 72, smart kid. Knows how to keep bullies away.

[@lesmup2159]

They send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue. That's the Chicago way.

[@typorad]

And a linear escalation of violence is what leads countries into very long costly wars. If you would just show up at the front door of their nation's capital building with 30 Abrams tanks on day one, you wouldn't even need to do much costly fighting. Of course like the teacher in your analogy, other countries would probably freak out and fly in to do something.

[@Grivies]

+Bryan Bergh Well yeah, in the war-time maybe. Think about the debacle in the Iraq. Of course the war was short (old, salvaged soviet-tanks vs modern US-armory), but the time after the war was a living hell for everyone, for the soldiers the same as for the civilians. (Sorry for the bad english).

[@CRT601]

*cough* blitzkrieg *cough*

[@boiledelephant]

+Bryan Bergh In a way, this is the basis of the nuclear deterrent. It's so ridiculously over-the-top that it guarantees nobody will risk warfare. Peace through level 72 overreaction.

[@Aerroon]

+boiledelephant Yep, I wanted to come here and say this. This is why nukes had to be used once and after that they're a complete deterrent.

[@howlfolk7764]

and that is what Blitzkrieg was all about, and when it worked, there were minimal casualties compared to a drawn-out war.

[@vladislavshevchenko634]

I studied in two schools in the first one i was often picked on by some really older guys. So with time i learnt that the only wat to deal with these much older kids was was to hit the leader to the face (or his balls if he was too tall for me to reach his face) with everything ive got because i might not have the second punch at my disposal. When I moved to another school and a guy from my class tried shoving my immediate was to hit him so bad that that i actually broke his nose. I only came to my senses when that kid fell down to the ground.i was shocked myself that i could've done it, but almost two years of bullying by much older kids made me phenomenally violent with immediate response reaction.

[@apalebluescribble7128]

You are a great actor! Really nice to watch :)

[@thesilentavenger]

I was the Level 72 kid. I did it because if you continuously escalate the situation, no one learns. If you start a conflict at Level 1, I'll start at Level 72 because I know you won't retaliate or attempt another conflict.

[@jamiekrutzfeldt3522]

KMG623 of they've moved first I will go 1/2 up aka ground him then it's like..... ...... .... .. .

[@Tuchulu]

Butt kicking for goodness! Anyway I remember the first time I played a roleplaying game and we were ambushed by some thieves at night, so I strarted to punch and kick and the Paladin got out his sword and started killing everyone. THE PALADIN

[@UnbeltedSundew]

Marc Latorre A paladins true nature is pure evil, as you immediately discovered. They just like to be bureaucratic about it is all.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

Marc Latorre As paladins do. 'Punishing' evil doers and all that. There should be a bdsm paladin class. :)

[@Faerindel]

Marc Latorre Remember, Paladins are fucking zealots. If they something marked as Evil by the bullshit alignment system, they'll go berserk until it's destroyed utterly, no matter circumstances.

[@Tuchulu]

Some paladins are OK it depends on the players and the GM. Dig deep enough and you will find lots of things don't make any sense.

[@UnbeltedSundew]

Marc Latorre I think you mean: "Scratch the surface and a lot of things make no sense." ;)

[@jacobsnell6214]

I would say this is situational. Threat levels are a fluid thing and can skip levels instantly. Being able to adapt to to a change like that is a necessary skill

[@Wesley-ri7ok]

Why I like Games like Civ, being overly aggressive can make people fear your going for a domination victory and refuse to work with you (since it may make you stronger than they are). Then if you refuse to work with anyone you may not have anyone help fend off said aggressive player when you need it, they may instead decide to join the attack (trying to gain your lands strength to avoid falling behind of the invader). Something thats hard to mimic with friends at a table.

[@TheEternalVanguard]

getting some real Michael Rosen vibes from that playground story.

[@baronofbahlingen9662]

The Eternal Vanguard I knew I couldn’t be the only one I thought so. I like both of them a lot, sort of the eccentric English Uncle type.

[@CssHDmonster]

wait aggression lvl 2 is a pinch? thats like lvl 0.5

[@annoythefish]

KelloPudgerro he's from the UK where you need a a safety course in deadly weapons to purchase a butter knife

[@reapy_s0ul26]

KelloPudgerro don't underestimate the pinch, it has turned the tide of many a war.

[@asdgashash]

KelloPudgerro Shove is just discomforting, pinch is actually painful.

[@zerogbot23]

annoythefish Omg best comment I've seen in awhile.

[@Metal-Spark]

KelloPudgerro A push is annoying a pinch actually stings - plus he's talking about children in a playground at that point of the video so it's all relative.

[@marconatrix]

In the real world the danger of getting injured/killed yourself is usually sufficient disincentive from full-on attack. In the animal world as a general rule and I´ve seen the same thing in an old Samarai film and again in traditional descriptions of duels in particular. Your aim is to get the other guy to back down by convincing him he can´t win, and to do so at the least risk to yourself. So you boast of your exploits, and if that doesn´t work demonstrate your skills with some ritualised acrobatics, and if necessary move on to throwing things at each other from a distance (fairly safe), and only on the rare occasions when the two combatants are almost equally matched will they go in close up and personal so as to literally risk life and limb. That way you get the chance to back out as soon as it´s clear you can´t win or the game simply isn´t worth the candle (the risk outweighs the reward).

[@extragirth64]

I was surprised by how much violence could be deterred by aggressively yelling at your bully. I have an older brother who used this but it never came to me as an option. Even while I was in college, I *wanted* to respond with an equal amount (or slight increase) of violence.

[@totalgeekthe1st]

I think the Achaean example actually shows another reason instant escalation occurs. Part of it has to do with whether or not players are role-playing average (or above average) Joes vs role-playing legendary heroes. And in a lot of mythic stories, the heroes themselves don't have a particularly good sense of escalation. To use the Achaean example, Achilles is on the verge of taking out his sword and going level 500 on Agamemnon until Athena comes down and tells him to stop. Or, for another example, Perseus decides that using Medusa's head on Andromeda's family is somehow an appropriate response after saving her. I guess my point is that, even if real people (probably) wouldn't behave like that, legendary heroes in an ancient saga (or a modern RPG) might.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

Arlen W Could it be logicked that Achilles was basically a scum bag? I mean, he was pretty much driven by ego as the greatest warrior ever. In ancient times, warriors were driven by loot, as they are in D&D. But not all characters are that evil. Perseus is basically evil.

[@totalgeekthe1st]

Usammity Oh i agree Achilles acts like a scumbag, and clearly not every character acts like him. However, I think many characters in those stories have a hero-mortal relationship which is very similar to the PC-NPC relationship in RPGs. Heroes like Achilles or Hector (or basically any other Iliadic warrior) aren't really vulnerable to the common soldier, and they don't really show any general respect for human life, in the same way that super highly leveled PCs aren't vulnerable to the town drunk and it doesn't matter if they kill him, since he's an NPC. Now, when playing as average characters, there's a lot more reason to escalate slowly, but I think it unsurprising that when playing as legendary warriors in RPGs, most players will act like assholes, the same way a lot of legendary warriors do in myths.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

Arlen W Safe to say, in greek times, 'hero' didn't mean goodie goodie.

[@totalgeekthe1st]

Usammity Absolutely. And in the various worlds RPGs take place in, I'm sure they shout "Adventurers are coming! Hide all your valuables!"

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

Arlen W NPCs shouldn't take too kindly to heroes behaving like busy bodies then. If anything, they'd get more nervous. The default reaction after a piece of dialogue has been said, "*shifty eyed* You gonna leave now? Please leave."

[@Jbot123]

Here's my D&D escalation story: A large party of fairly high level adventurers were delivering the McGuffin potion to sick Prince Whoever when an inter-party argument broke out. The paladin got upset for some reason and decided to leave with the potion. A bunch of us tried to non-lethally stop him, but the DM decided that 6 unarmed adventurers could only overwhelm the magically armored paladin if they could roll a successful hit. We couldn't and he got on his special war horse and began to ride off. The only thing I could come up with to stop him was magic missile. On the horse. Pretty much evaporated it. It was over 20 years ago, and the guy is probably still upset about it.

[@greyareaRK1]

Very good point. I'm not sure about verbal vs physical abuse question. The former can be more devastating than the latter (for minor altercations), and the law will sometimes acknowledge provocation, though it's a shaky defence, so to speak. In the games I play there is usually a benefit or reward for employing wit, but we play alternative RPG's, usually moded too. A similar argument applies to video games. It would be a very different dynamic if you got only life per session, and damage took time and proper attention to heal.

[@innovativeatavist159]

In the USA, Aggression level 1 for adult males is punching. Aggression Level 2 is shooting. ....also I think I may have been that kid. I got tired of being bullied so I started defending myself with sticks, rocks, whatever I could grab. I didn't understand why I was the one described as a bad seed. They were mocking me, ostracizing me, and physically pushing me....of course I grabbed a chunk of concrete and started bashing them in the head. I never got bullied by the same person twice until I started trying not to get in fights around 8th grade.

[@Tehbigsexy]

In the middle of no where with out witnesses, if your friends dont rat you out. There should be no consequence

[@W4ldgeist]

Oh and. I agree on the point of roleplaying aggression. Especially in LARPing. People draw swords and kill others at a whim and dish out "justice" without any form of ruling, reasonability, basis or proof. After some LARPs I was really, really happy that we don't live in the age of self-justice anymore. People are incredibly stupid and unreasonable even today with our widespread education etc. I was playing a peaceful elf in several LARPs and was kind of pushed to the side as the "stupid idiot peace freak" because I tried to save some hungry beggars who attacked a group in the woods for food and money. Thank the gods the righteous paladins shoved me aside (physically I might add, because I apparently pushed them so far IN the game with my nagging, that they got really mad outside of the game... *sigh*) and beheaded them for not even hurting a single person of the group. Oh well... humans... never change.

[@GurniHallek]

Waldgeist "People draw swords and kill others at a whim and dish out "justice" without any form of ruling, reasonability, basis or proof" People get much, much more reasonable and diplomatic when there is a real danger to their lives and health, or a threat of pain, you know.

[@LionofCaliban]

Sir Krzysztof They need to recognise and accept there is that risk, first. If they have any sort of power, they don't. I hate to say it, but some of the time, it needs to be beaten into people. They simply can't see the harm they are capable of doing until it gets done to them. Even then, they try to blame others and shift it, they can't do anything wrong, they're smart, educated and they have a uni degree. As you might guess, I'm cynical about people.

[@MrThe1And0nly]

Sir Krzysztof Holy crap are you kidding me? It's literally the opposite. When there is a real danger to people they get all emotional and panicky. Emotional and panicky people are far from reasonable. Stop being stupid.

[@LPChipi]

"We're having a little aggression level 1 match, are we?" Is something I'll say as often as I can

[@chancepaladin]

I like this vid! very very good one. Sends a great message that I can definitely apply in my gaming.

[@inspirality]

Disputes are possible. He says she is ugly, then she hits him with a tea kettle. Does this count as descaling ?

[@kimarous]

Maybe it's because I haven't actually played tabletop RPGs, but in my own experience with computer games, there's rarely any ways to end encounters at "appropriate" levels. The enemy always attacks to kill and unless the game has a preset "damage me this far and I'll stop to beg for mercy" mechanic, the only way to make them stop is to kill them back. It doesn't help that many games only give experience points specifically for killing enemies, rather than taking the non-lethal high road. Also, I've heard that hand-to-hand / non-lethal approaches in tabletop RPGs tend to be poorly handled. Grappling, especially.

[@DragonTigerBoss]

kimarous People get really confused about grappling in D&D 3.5. It's really very simple: roll opposed unarmed attacks, and the winner deals unarmed damage for winning the grapple. While you're in a grapple, you oppose each other every turn for the right to act unimpeded, or to escape the grapple. So, pretty much what you do when actually grappling. The problem in implementation is that two people who don't specialize in grappling will have similar enough attack rolls that it comes down to the dice. Ex: a 6th level wizard with 10 Strength has a +3 attack modifier, and a 6th level fighter with 16 Strength has a +9 attack modifier. The fighter should easily be able to overpower the wizard whenever he wants, but the wizard only has to beat him by a natural 6 on the roll, which is *fairly* unlikely, but entirely possible.

[@johnboyjjb]

Step level escalation is rational if you want validate your and your opponents willingness to fight. Large jump level escalation is rational if you remove your opponents willingness or capability to fight.

[@DivineChronometer]

I suggest looking at adapting your favorite setting to the Iron Kingdoms rules from Privateer Press. There's some really in depth unarmed and armed combat in the Urban Adventures supplement for the sorts of fights that happen in places where neither side wants to get hanged for murder. You can stomp on their foot, poke them in the eye, kick the groin, grapple, choke, crack them with a bottle, hit them with a chair, throw dirt in their eyes, and other thuggish behaviors.

[@CapnHolic]

Someone got PKed for a minor transgression.

[@kolsveinnskraevolding]

1:29 - 2:00 So that's what I was in High School. And I believe RPGs already have the equivalence of school teachers on the playground to deal with this sort of aggression. Guard NPCs becoming hostile.

[@donutak74u]

To be fair. Your character not having a damage roll written down for stuff like shove just means that shove deals no damage. Or in other words you can't eventually kill someone by pinching them.

[@banananotebook3331]

Reminds me of how pigeons fighting don't just peck each other in the eye, or how moose lock antlers in what is the least effective way to fight.

[@gloccry2184]

Most animals have this behaviour when contesting territories of the same species, unless they are specifically hunting. Evolutionary physiology is a fascinating thing.

[@williamburton757]

The kid who jumps from level one to level 70+ has read his Clauswitz

[@baronofbahlingen9662]

William Burton Or Ender’s Game

[@poiuytrewq11422]

When my players do unreasonable things, i tend to make them trip, shit themselves, and then stab themselves by accident.

[@oz_jones]

"accident"

[@Treblaine]

"Shove" exists as bull-rush. Pinch and foot stomp exist under the general "unarmed non-lethal damage" You don't get XP for killing the otherwise harmless NPCs. Alignment is dependant on things like how you escalate, alignment changes can hugely materially affect characters. Not to mention most GM guides warn about consequences for killing.

[@Flight_of_Icarus]

I remember my first round of DnD. I played as a haughty elven noble fighter type that had a bigger ego than a Roman Emperor. He was mostly meant as comic relief as he really didn't have any skills to back up his words (as I came in late to the campaign) and mostly tried to take credit for what others in the party had done (think Mr. Satan from Dragonball). The game wasn't all too serious as we had a drunken paladin and shenanigans abound. However, we had this one party member who was DEAD serious about the campaign and DnD in general, who was often a serious buzzkill as he tried to get the members on point and organized, as a player (most of us were below our 20s, teenagers but I would guess that he was in his 30s or 40s, similar age to the DM). His character (whom I learned about AFTER I had created mine) was a Chaotic Evil Rogue with a Criminal background, in a campaign which didn't officially allow the evil alignment. Yeah. He would often sit beside the DM and quietly carry on his own ventures as the rest of us would go about our shenanigans. My character BARELY interacted with his and had done basically nothing to provoke or even catch his notice. I managed to get four sessions in with this character (where only two were attended by Mr. Buzzkill), before I was brutally murdered with no warning. It turns out the culprit was none other than the Rogue himself, for no other reason than he wanted what I carried as a noble. This man had attacked and killed another player (a new player, no less) with no provocation, and no motive other than he wanted what I had. He even had the nerve to brag to me that he used a less effective move than his best, which still killed me in one hit. He set this up with the DM and I had little to no warning, and then mocked me for being upset at his poor sportsmanship as a player. I've yet to try playing as a noble again.

[@malignor9035]

A slap would only be 1 point of nonlethal damage. You can add strength bonus to the damage, if you want to put your back into it and try to floor the poor sap. You need a new DM/GM

I disagree. If you're reasonable within a fight, you wouldn't escalate things in small increments, as if the fight is some sort of entertainment. You want to escalate the fight straight to the point at which the enemy cannot tolerate the retaliation (just over the top). You want the fight to end there and then, because otherwise you will both end up after the fight in worse condition than if you'd have kicked him after he shoved you. Of course, there has to be some sort of self-limitation (as in not stabbing after being shoved), but it most definitely has to be the shortest way to finish the fight or stop it. And in role-play games, you also strive to have as much offensive power as possible to end any fight as soon as possible.

[@ProfessorEGadd]

I'm always trying to get this point across with my DnD group, and it intersects with the ridiculousness of the turn-based combat you previously mentioned. My high dexterity gifts me the first go, which I use in full RP mode to talk my way out of a fight before even considering making the first aggression. Meanwhile someone else in my party has disappeared into stealth, snuck around the back, exploded out of cover with a duel-weilded seismic uppercut for 61 damage and split the slightly drunk peasant in two from arse to mouth.

[@KanuckStreams]

I'm playing a small-group game of Pathfinder, and we often have resolved conflicts without combat, or a minimum at least. Heck, just this last game we met a Brine Dragon, and we were so diplomatic (it helped a bit that my character was a Kobold that literally worshiped Dragons as living Gods) that he became full-on Helpful (to use the game mechanic term) to us, granting us the ability to breathe water, telling us exactly where we needed to go to get the Magical McGuffin, and warning us of the guards. That said, we do often resolve conflicts by setting them on fire. Or at least my Kobold does.

[@MatthiasPendragon]

As someone who will be DMing their first D&D game in a couple of weeks, this will be interesting to observe.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

WaywardSon Well have fun when players rage quit, because you gave them natural consequences.

[@MatthiasPendragon]

We'll see. I was referring more to the idea of watching how quickly they escalate. If I do give them a natural consequence, it'll likely show up at an unexpected time as a problem for them to solve.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

WaywardSon You think 'problem to solve' they think 'unecessary problem that's dumb and I'm quitting!' or my favourite, 'if I wanted inconvenient problems that i didn't forsee would tie into the plot, I would start doing more stuff in real life' The experience of a game is different from reality, regardless of how you swing it.

[@JimCullen]

WaywardSon Ignore the other guy. If your players are like that, they're probably not people that would be fun to roleplay with anyway. Just give realistic consequences for their actions (don't be overly harsh, but don't be too generous, either), and everyone should have a good time.

[@MatthiasPendragon]

Jim Cullen Thanks, knowing this group they'd actually enjoy some realistic repercussions from time to time. (As long as I let them pull of some ludicrous shenanigans on their natural 20 rolls, that is.)

[@DamienZshadow]

I disagree, the natural escalation of violence should neither be tolerated by authority or aimed for in a confrontation. The moment someone declares to land a hand on another is when they have made a decision to enforce their will on another. Whether that force is ineffective or not is missing the point. Given the opportunity, they may escalate to a higher violent threshold soon enough and not simply "walk away" as you pointed out. Why waste the time and pain slowly escalating? Don't outright kill anyone or break the bones of people who shove you but you should certainly punch, takedown and subdue your opponent swiftly and sternly. There is no game to be had the moment they resort to any violence, they are a potential threat to my well being and must be constrained for my safety and others if authorities are not available or acting. Likewise, as someone who works with children, if my students shove another, I do not wait and watch it unfold and attribute it to kids just being kids. No, I march over there and make an example of a breakdown in communication and reprimand the attacker for initiating physical contact. It is not acceptable behavior to shove someone so it must be addressed immediately.

[@st0ox]

thank you man. I wasn't able to formulate exactly this what you said in English. I tried badly in another post.

[@DamienZshadow]

st0ox It's okay, I am sure your message was still understood. Either way, your intentions are good. As you can tell, it wasn't exactly easy for me either considering how many paragraphs it took me. lol

[@st0ox]

***** its funny how i was thinking about other solutions for conflict situations in my crappy little indi 2d game and then saw this video and thought yeah maybe he is right, but in the end i don't get this mild violence "low intensity shit"(stole this phrase). So in my game you can talk, run away, go away, disarm or kill the enemy. Maybe it makes sense to show your fighting skills without killing your opponent and then go back to talking. But you cannot show your combat skills with pushing the enemy...

[@DamienZshadow]

st0ox It depends, as a martial artist I know some styles employ various kinds of pushes in certain ways to defeat and counter an opponent. But I wish you the best in your game! Sounds real neat!

[@st0ox]

***** okay maybe i add a nice push later :D. But this push wouldn't be violence level 1. Its something between real dangerous violence, where someone gets baldy hurt and violence level 6 i guess ^^

[@ServantofBaal]

I was the 'aggression level 72' kid.. poor kid did something to annoy me, and I threw a wooden block at his eye and he had to wear an eyepatch for three days. For a similar reason, I wasn't allowed to play 'red rover' as a kid because I would just plow through them with the ferocity of shock cavalry

[@clint151]

I mean this is partially why the term murderhobo came about. Everyone knew it was a thing and it was part of the D&D adventuring trope's charm.

[@pebblecups]

Would fighting going up floors in a department store count as escalation of violence?

[@squeaiker]

But Npcs are usually so happy to oblige. Even when they are peasants with pitchforks and you are some iron-clad barbarian with an axe no human alive could possibly hope to wield. Granted I haven't played many "analog" RPGs but the thing is that no one seems to respect or fear the adventurer/warrior/wizard who recently annihilated that bandit camp, which used to pester the village. - Oh, there's the guy who slew that balor recently. Maybe, I should try to rob him with my pitchfork/butter knife. I think the first problem would be the game world. Referees and game developers would have to become more reasonable if they expect the player to act reasonably .

[@coltbolt6193]

The editing in these videos are awesome

[@TheDaniel366Cobra]

There are situations where escalation is not a way to go. I had an unpleasant experience at my country house involving three drunk guys around 20 years of age (I was 17 at the time). They started calling me names, then, seeing no reaction ("sticks and stones", as I like to say to myself) became aggressive and started shoving me around. I was (and still am) a not very strong person, with an ectomorphic body and little possibility for growing large muscle (I tried), so no way I could defend against three drunk bullies. Luckily, I had a motorcycle chain. A slash across one guy's face sent him onto the ground and the other two, suddenly sober, running away. I don't think I would be able to come out a winner if I just started shoving them back.

[@alysraflueret6271]

Yeah but I bet people shoved the kid who stabbed people with a pencil a shitload less than they shoved the reasonable kids! ;)

[@berbatov3890]

I turn adblocker off for this guy

[@theepicone100]

I usually find reminding people of their characters alignment, even as a fellow player, can prevent such instances. I did DM a game once and that exact situation you described happened. I instantly hit the player character that killed the poor NPC and those that agreed with the actions with a alignment shift to reflect their actions. It was especially funny, we saw the lawful neutral going neutral evil. Needless to say, that didn't happen again. I restored their original alignments after they acted more akin to those alignments.

[@johannstrauss9213]

I could watch this agression level imprssions for hours!!

[@havareriksen3395]

So what's the proper escalation level if someone attacks you with a piece of fresh fruit? :-D

[@havareriksen3395]

That was a rotten trick.

[@MrUnknownzz1]

And what about if someone attacks you with a point-ed stick?

[@Robstar100]

SHUT UP!

[@koffieslikkersenior]

Just add an insanity trait or something

[@Tauric94]

koffieslikkersenior and if it gets too high, you will start mindlessly attacking people until you get killed?

[@koffieslikkersenior]

Tauric94 something like that. Or even attacking teammates. Reduced stats and perhaps some minor bonuses...

[@cavebobspongeman9900]

This actually reminds me of something that me and my friends did when we played role playing games. We would have a deescalation mechanic. Ordinarily there would be events/encounters where you could escalate or deescalate the situation, with differing outcomes depending on which you chose. Sometimes you couldn't deescalate a situation even if you wanted, and it was pretty hard to tell when you could and couldn't do it. For example if you deescalate some encounter an NPC might give you an item later that you need. Or if you can't deescalate, you waste time trying while you could be getting attacked.

[@junlee3515]

I remember when I was in elementary I had a friend who has been diagnosed with Bipolar (he wasn’t diagnosed than yet but definitely had it in him) and we were just playing with pencils like we were acting like we were samurais and playing fake sword fights with pencils than He suddenly for no reason at all he stabbed me in the hand really hard . I tip of the pencil broke inside my hand and the graphite was stuck inside my hand I had to go to the hospital and they had to take it out .some people are really goddamn aggressive

[@igrabz]

every time an attractive woman turns down my advances is cause for escalation. level 326.

[@apbrit2009]

+Brandon Bramlett the supreme gentleman level