Essential Things to Consider Before Buying an ATU

[@mewrongwayKOCXF]

Been a ham since 1979 and never owned a tuner. Thanks Callum!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Great!!

[@mickgibson370]

I tune my system: 1 coax with dummy load. 2 antenna. I have been able to hit stations 400 km away using 2 meters with an SWR 1.1. It even makes receiving better! I hand made my antenna.

[@fredroessler]

Well, not Fred in Texas but Fred in Oregon. I am Not a Ham but an SWL, however I mostly listen to the Ham bands. My antenna is a home built fan dipole for 20M, 40M and 80M. I used to have a vertical antenna as well but during a winter storm it broke in half and I never got around to replacing it. I really like your videos. They are very informative.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Hey thanks Fred!

[@hiltopuk]

I think anyone setting up will look at a kit of parts and say yeah I need one of those without actually knowing why. Good to know why we need and don't always need some bits of kit.

[@glennarrant3743]

I went to a HWEF just the get rid of the ATU on my FT 818. Thanks for all the common sense.

[@jolebole-yt]

EFHW ;)

[@Eric10179]

Glad I watched this video! I never understood why people always said the 80m band was “so big”. The 300khz bandwidth is smaller than the 350khz bandwidth we have on 20m, what gives? It never occurred to me it was the percentage not the raw bandwidth that was the issue for tuning. Makes perfect sense now. Thanks Callum!

[@ZeroHarry]

Callum, I had to look up what it meant when I first saw your painted nail. This is what I found. Since the start of October (2016), men around the world have been painting one fingernail to join the Polished Man movement and raise awareness about physical and sexual violence against children. ### Keep rocking it mate. ###

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Heck, I never knew that!

[@jackK5FIT]

A friend recently put up a Nebula at his place. He runs a solid state amp and a tuner. He kept kicking the amp when running through the tuner and finally figured out he didn't need the tuner with the amp and the Nebula since he tuned the antenna elements when he put them up. He's happy. His amp is happy and the Nebula is happy. I'm happy too because my Classic is in transit right now. Thanks!! Jack K5FIT

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Cool! Everyone happy Jack! :)

[@bill-2018]

Yep, thumbs up from me. Been h.f. since 1976 and very successfully used a roller coaster and variable capacitor on long wires. Went QRP some 30 years ago. Now having a motorbike only and FT817 for portable use as it's smaller than my h/b rig and luckily another amateur gave me his MFJ16010 atu which he said didn't work. I used it for 2 years before it gave up. Investigating inside I could see nothing wrong until I poked around and found a wire had not been soldered but looked as though it was touching. I soldered it and no problem. I now have an outside inverted vee for 60m with dipoles in the attic for 20m to 10m. G4GHB

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Perfect Bill!

[@andye2005]

Agree with much of what you say, but... ATU / matching units have always been necessary for me, mainly because I have never had the space to fit a resonant antenna. (hoping that a "bent around corners" end fed half wave may help) So I've always needed to use "compromise antennas" A good external match box is a huge help in such situations. It also highlights that many internal tuners don't have the range to tune short wires, or such like. They do as other comment's have said often give up around 3:1 Andy

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes Andy, sounds a fix to me!

[@markrowell7242]

I started out on HF with a 17' vertical with a coil at the bottom and jumper I had to go outside and move every time I changed bands (PITA) and it got me on 10 - 10 meters. My Elmer said a vertical would be very noisy since I lived right by an Interstate highway. It was a little high but not bad and I could reach Western Europe, Australia, South America, and Asia from Oregon, USA. I then got an LDG-100 remote tuner and left it tuned for 40 meters, and it worked okay and I didn't have to trudge outside to switch bands. I finally got a 50 foot tower with a Hex beam (20, 17, 15, 12, 10 meters) so I get some gain and some side/back signal attenuation...AND NO TUNING NEEDED! Woo-hoo! I changed the length of my vertical (slide joints) to make it a dedicated 6 meter antenna, and again no tuning. To fill out the upper bands I use an Icom remote tuner so my transmission line losses are minimal to get 80-10 meters with simple in-the-shack tuning button. I agree tuned antennas are the cat's meow, but there are fully acceptable alternatives that work too (like your compromise on 80 meters. Nice video and thanks for your putting out this info.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Remote ATUs are a lot of fun..

[@pc4ad]

It's not just because of tuning, but also no need to switch antenna's when going from one band to another which makes this lovable product 🙂

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Oh yes, the DXC Anton? Yeah I must admit, that was a side-chain benefit!

[@pc4ad]

@@DXCommanderHQ an alternative would be a long wire with a 9:1 balun. It does work as well but this seems te be way more efficient

[@gebrowniii]

My IC7300 will match 3:1 not much more. My TS890 will do 10:1 with no issues, problem is I live in a neighborhood and my only choice because of lot size is a fan dipole which is good from 1.5:1 to 5:1 across all of the bands I operate. My solution was to run one ATU into one amplifier and be nice to both of my radios whatever I am running at the time. I agree with you most of the time unnecessary but with all the jumping around it protects against brain fade. Keep up the good work. 73

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes of course Glen... As we say in the UK, horses-for-courses.. And in your case, needs-must!

[@forgetyourlife]

The 7300 in “emergency mode” will do 10/1 with a 50w output.

[@sparkdg]

I’ve been trying to find out if I need a tuner. This is exactly the video I’ve been looking for. I’m a new ham just bought my mobile radio, power supply, antenna and coax and not sure if I’ll ruin my equipment not having a tuner and a swr meter.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

You won't break anything..

[@2EOGIY]

What kind of impedance will have a fan dipole that covers i.e. 3 parts of 80m bands? 3 sets of wires: one tuned to CW part 3.550, one for the middle 3.650, and one for the top 3.750

[@DXCommanderHQ]

THAT is an experiment I have yet to do..!

[@greasydot]

Great idea.

[@polymath5119]

I've often thought if room were available for it a 75-80m fan dipole would be a good idea.

[@2EOGIY]

@@polymath5119 it there are totally different bands, then impedance is always lower than the lowest one, but if bands are close.. it could be mess as impedances are close to each other and you could get even half of it in the end. a bit lower of 73 could be 50 a half of 73 is 36 - that's bad. question here is what is the difference between resonant frequency and close frequency but out of bandwidth.

[@oldfartonabmx2122]

Great food for thought Cal. As a foundation operator with a measly 10 watts, losses from poor SWR really add up! (starting standard licence study this weekend! 100 watts here I come!)

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Good man!

[@brian.7966]

well done for going for it, there are too many m7s around who will or won`t bother.

[@1958johndeere620]

I run a Palstar AT2K into a 160 loop. The swr is horrible on some bands, but I just force it until the 4 to 1 balun tells me it is pissed. I just don't want to run many resonant antennas. Tune it and run it. I get what I get.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Haha perfect! Nothing like it on 160m :)

[@mwalker1975]

I run the classic at home, no ATU needed with exception of the top end of the 80m band and that is only because I cut the antenna to be resonant on 3.8 mostly since I spend a lot of time down there. ATU just cleans up the top portion of the band and makes me feel better only. Otherwise, things are just as you explained Cal! Cheers and 73, KJ7FEE

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Perfect!

[@jolebole-yt]

Excellent logic. This tuner "necessity" is more pronounced on QRP portable operations where if you are running random antenna with high SWR without a tuner, you gonna waste some loss on the coax and some loss because of a higher swr. So instead of 5W you are sending 1-2W for eg. Comes down to pick your Ham compromise kit and go out and have fun. Retailers are indeed shoving tuner ads in our face as much as they can as they are cheap to build but they sell them at a high premium! Have you ever considered publishing a book with all these wisdom nuggets? Here's a book title for ya: "Caullm's HAM Haiku " ?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

I do actually have a book in the back of my mind actually yes..

[@matknight]

In the short time ive been licenced and for many years on freebands, my take is a Resonant Antenna should be your first port of call over an Atu. Do the job right first time may help reduce unnecessary costs in the long run. Just my take and opinion. 73 Callum, keep up the good work.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yep, unless you really do have balanced line up to a big loop or doublet for low bands..

[@Steven_VE9SY]

Thank you Callum!!!! I'm going to share this one for sure. To many people think awe just throw a tuner on it and you'll be fine! I beat my head against a wall with these people. I tuned antenna will give you the power out you need. Putting a tuner in the equation, and tuning that 20m ham stick on the roof with a XXXX tuner and I can go 160 to 10!! Yea but for 99 percent of those bands you may as well take a bullhorn outside and scream CQ into that. You'll get almost as far as that band showing a 30:1 or worst!!!! Why people can not just take some time and build an antenna that works. Yes some are better than other. I have never Bought (With one $30 exception so I could learn about UnUns) an antenna I build my own. I with the help of friends when I first got started built a bunch of screwdriver antennas for our cars. Learned a hell of a lot from that build. I've made antennas that by all right should have just caught fire the first time I put out a watt or two, and they were fantastic. A lot of the bought antennas, take a heck of a lot of tinkering to get them anywhere near close to working. When I teach a course, Every one leaves with an antenna that will work Multi-band. (Fan Dipole.) By the time they leave they not only built there first antenna, but they get to see it work. Test it.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Agreed.. And there is SO MUCH bullshit about some of these fancy purchased antennas!

[@paulm0hpd319]

Agree you can't just put a tuner inline and expect miracles but in the correct situation as with a doublet for example it allows the radio to produce its maximum power into the system

[@Steven_VE9SY]

@@DXCommanderHQ What I like is those that buy a radio with a tuner in it and brag how great it is, then they are in the forums asking whats the best tuner for this radio? Or then they will spend an arm and a leg for a 705 and bitch because there is no tuner, but their 7300 does but there is an LDG tuner sitting on ton of it!

[@FatPengiun]

Thanks for all of your videos, I especially like these little snippets of information. It is always a pleasure to watch/listen to you talk about radio stuff that I find really relevant to me especially about the mic shy stuff. Keep it up you are doing great. Geoff, VK4NIX.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Glad you like them Geoffrey!

[@1958Eagleeye]

Great thoughts on ATU's and their spot in the big picture of Amateur radio.

[@robhorsch3669]

Great as always! I am now a subscriber. Many thanks. I am moving from 1 to 2 antennas. My end fed non-resonant wire with 9:1 unun can be tuned to all bands, 160 through 6 meters with an internal modern rig tuner. So convenient! I jump bands all the time. I only use the ATU when I run the amp, which is not often. For single bands, I am using a tuned antenna which often works better on that band than the end fed non-resonant wire, but i can't jump bands without switching out antennas. Great to have the choice. 73, N7RLV

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Hi Rob. Welcome aboard! Yes OK on the 9:1. You are not alone, many folks have similar.

[@kingduckford]

I run manual antenna tuners for a few reasons. The most obvious is, I run solid state amplifier which requires it! Also, my Yaesu 5000 MP is a top notch rig, but its ATU range is the same as my 450d, which is only 3:1 or less. Also, I use your competitor's Hustler BTV6 with a very strong field of radials over very conductive soil. 40 meters will not tune higher than ~7.12 mHz. Trying to talk phone on the higher end of the US 40 meter around 7.25 or higher is a stretch for my radio's ATU. A seeming weakness of the Hustler, if used with good radial field. How does your product fair in this regard? Also, a compromise vertical like the Hustler has even narrower bandwith on 80/75. Doing the General class phone band of 200 mHz takes enough tuning as to need a higher capacity tuner to reach the extreme ends. Again, how well does the DX Commander do in this regard?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Tuning 40m: On the DXC product, you can tune it anywhere. Actually the bandwidth for 40m is around 350kHz at 1.5:1 each end (I have equiv of about 60 radials). OK on the 5000MP.

[@DominicMazoch]

A good manual impedance matcher can get some antennae to play nice that an auto cannot.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes!

[@madmal61]

Well articulated Callum

[@oobihdahboobeeboppah]

When I first got into radio back in the mid-70s, we all had vacuum tube transmitters which meant the tank circuits had pi networks, also known as antenna tuners. Now in the age of solid state finals, we can no longer get away with the same antennas we had 50 years ago in many cases. Needless to say having a tuner either internal or external is a necessity in my book, unless you always have a resonant antenna or one that is very close to that as you point out in the video. Some of us and I include myself and maybe a small handful of others, go with non-resident antennas such as a doublet to leverage various advantages in the layout of these antennas. I'll add this thought: Locate the tuner be as close to the antenna as possible. I am absolutely certain that most hams, especially new operators, don't realize the coax between the radio and the antenna is in fact part of the antenna. Unless common mode chokes are strategically placed along the coax the feed line is part of the antenna. I won't go into all the problems that can cause but suffice it to say I would rather have the maximum power transfer from the radio to the coax and from the coax to the antenna. Aside from using a resonant antenna, the only other way to do that is to put a matching network at the feed point. Even what I'm saying would not satisfy a purist I'm sure, but in my humble opinion, if we're going to spend money on a tuner to sit next to the radio why not invest in a remote tuner to put at the base of a non-resident antenna? However, using your DX Commander vertical addresses that concern entirely. I do not have your antenna but I admire the engineering and the very reason why you developed it. Good show old man.

[@oobihdahboobeeboppah]

Coax losses are usually expressed in loss per hundred feet. That way you can approximate your losses as I'm sure few people only have exact multiples of 100 ft feedlines.

[@paulm0hpd319]

The feedline is apart of the antenna system not the antenna, unless there's an antenna imbalance it doesn't radiate, a choke will correct that imbalance and stop common mode current, there are pros and cons for having the tuner a either the antenna or the radio ,if using a low loss feedline such as balance feeder or even a very low loss coax there is no real issue in having the tuner at the radio

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes Glen.. I ran a doublet at the old place with some balanced line. Really lovely down 40m and below.

[@oobihdahboobeeboppah]

@@paulm0hpd319 Right, I glazed over the obvious and should have been more clear that in a very well built and tuned (resonant) 50 ohm antenna, etc, you're in good shape.

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@oobihdahboobeeboppah even a non resonant antenna can be well tuned and efficient

[@edcozart9916]

Makes sense get your antenna right and you won’t have to worry good stuff as always Callum cheers W9US

[@kevinmatthews2620]

myself i use a EA 80m sloper not trimmed for a particular part just its full ength out of the box and for ft8 on 3.573 it tunes with my onboard atu on my ic 7610 @ approx 1 to 1.3 @ 100w using M&P ultraflex 10 and M&P compression plugs quite ok in fact @ 100w i can get into CN87 (Kitsnap County Washington) @ 4,521 miles with a acceptable signal report both ways, whereas my ultrabeam for 40-6m i have a flat swr as it is a auto tune antenna for any freq i am on, i do use M&P coax and plugs throughout though, the new M&P compression plugs over standard pl259s i am seeing maybe 1 or 2 more S points on recieve and conversly on Tx

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Those compression plugs are brilliant.

[@erpece]

That table at 5:20 is a reality check. 2.6:1 results in 20% loss, which is roughly 1dB... That is 1/6 of an S-point... I know - you will say 'Hey, every dB counts!', which of course is true. But I just want to point out that we sometimes go fussy about an SWR of 1.7:1...

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Indeed. Check the numbers.

[@HAMRADIODUDE]

Great video quality and content! Much appreciated

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Dude!!

[@mikemurphy1940]

One correction. Most modern radio "tuners" are good to about 3:1. Really appreciate your take on this Callum. You do a great job breaking this stuff down so that it is easy to understand. - KI8R

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Well, I didn't know that. I mean, why you would want a mismatch beyond 3:1 on coax anyway.. But we both digress :)

[@seanwood8043]

Edifying information as always thanks for what you do sir.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

So nice of you - thanks!

[@garyhinson3876]

your nail varnish, matches your acoustic panels, how very colour coordinated M0IUQ

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Oh yes, I like it that way!

[@greasydot]

Thank you for the lesson. I've been telling people this for sometime now. An ATU doesn't tune anything because the antenna was not changed!!!! All it does is lies to your radio to make it happy.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes good point. It's a good liar! :)

[@charleswoods2996]

Most of us have known for a long time that the term "antenna tuner" is a misnomer of sorts. We know that it's more of a "matching device". Just as we know when people make this statement like you have here is only means of insulting someone's intellect upon parroting and paraphrasing someone else's rhetoric to make yourself sound and feel intelligent. Reminds me of the Ham operators I've met that have lived in their mother's basements for most of their adult lives and occasionally try on various pairs of her underwear. KD8EFQ

[@greasydot]

@@charleswoods2996 didn't mean to offend you. You kind of remind me of the ham operator that pretends to be intelligent but in all reality had to ask your inbred uncle daddy grandpa to help you type this insult. I haven't lived with my parents for over 40 years. I was busy making money. I own 4 houses and 70 acres all paid for by 40 years old. All you ended up with was a bad attitude, stretched out bunghole

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@charleswoods2996 is it not tuning the capacitive and inductive reactances to cancel each other out to create a resonant system?

[@charleswoods2996]

@@paulm0hpd319 I want to say "Yes." to your question here, as the question itself seems confusing. Maybe I'm not comprehending it the way you are maybe intending. I couldn't help to basically attack "greasydot" here as I have heard in almost exact words from other Hams years ago, who, to one extent think that their Advanced/Extra Class license is somehow a Ph.D., while not even understanding what that is! And, on paper, academically, they didn't even make it out of the 10th grade because they were too busy being the "roughians" and "bullies" that were beating up on the students in the Match Clubs, Math and Science, and such.

[@josephdeery4931]

Thank you very much for the great and truthful video loved it Joe in Northern Ireland

[@DXCommanderHQ]

You are very welcome!

[@paulm0hpd319]

If swr is a direct measurement to loss, can you explain why most of the power is radiated by the antenna when feeding a dipole with 600 ohm open wire into a tuner with 10.1 swr and not 70%loss as those swr loss charts have us believe

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Paul, this was a debate about coax only I'm afraid.

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@DXCommanderHQ it was an example to explain that swr isn't a direct measurement for loss without the feedline taken into consideration, the less lossier the coax the more reflected power is radiated by the antenna

[@markramsay6399]

Great video as always Cal. So I have been away week in Cornwall (Charlestown) - what a wonderful place that is. Returned home to Berkshire today and noted that my DX Commander has sagged a little in the heat. So taken down, adjusted and back up this evening. Just been testing with a CAA-500 and the performance is impressive as I expected. I can get the whole of 40m in SWR 1.2, and the whole of 20M in SWR 2 (with the bit I want at 1.2 SWR, and the rest where about I want it). As your table shows, can get a little hung up on SWR, I know I did in my CB days decades ago. But as your table shows, the losses at reasonable SWR are negligible. Also, as a new Ham (2E0MSR), I used to think the tuner was the magic bullet that could tune any antenna to give you want you want. But my understanding now is that all it does is present a good situation (50 omhs ish) to the radio. So with a brilliant tuner you could tune a coat hanger but the efficiency would be somewhat lacking ! Anyway - keep this coming Cal, great resource. Mark.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Haha.. Yes Mark, you got it :)

[@williambarrett70]

I think my on-board ATU will handle most of my mis-matches, and a BalUn Will work with most of what I put up. 73, Cal. WW5MB

[@davidc5027]

The power loss chart question. Isn't loss going to be dependent on the type of coax used and length of the feed? Or is this just a situation of "in the main".. meaning some kind of ballpark idea of losses. If so, I completely understand this wasn't for exact losses.

[@paulm0hpd319]

Correct! Feedline must be taken into account as reflected power is either radiated by the antenna or lost in Feedline

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes David, take it with a pinch of salt..

[@Lee_Adamson_OCF]

I'm just too cheap to buy decent coax. I run an old AT-200 manual ATU through a home made 1:1 balun into window line to an inverted V of a convenient length. I wish I had a good place to put a DX commander where the cattle wouldn't tear it down, but my junk antenna works for now lol.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Fair enough!

[@j.p.thearmoredchef]

My radio tunes everything across the bands with my DXC with the exception of 10m and that’s purely because of how giant the band is. I believe even that would be better but I made my 10m element a little short.

[@3dPrint_and_chill]

Well said Calum

[@4youian]

Hi Cal, so if you wanted all of 80 could you build a multi-element vertical with 2 elements for the one band? Or a fan dipole with two elements for the one band? 73, VK7IAN

[@DXCommanderHQ]

I have heard of this but never tried it myself. It's about time I gave it a go!

[@myballwilson]

I'm thinking of putting your antenna on top of a 3 meter tall stump about 50cm wide. Could I let the radials hang or instead, can I put a sheet of copper as a ground plane that theoretically could be smaller and perhaps more efficient than the dangling wires? I can use the surrounding roof and trees for guy wires but not a bunch of wife angering radials.(I would make a dovecote on top of the stump to sell the idea) Is this a naive idea?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

My feeling is with that height, I would hazard a guess that it would still look grounded, yes.

[@myballwilson]

@@DXCommanderHQ Would it be grounded but a sheet of copper and how big a sheet would be necessary?

[@myballwilson]

That is my question. I assume it would be grounded but how big a sheet metal? There is a lot of copper surface area in a square meter? I'm not sure you can model this but I'm sure a lot of guys would want to put your antenna on the roof.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Just place the radials out in a circle.. I don't know about the copper sheet.. You need radials really.

[@fredbissnette3104]

If you run resonant antennas you will learn how to trim and tune and you will get your signal out farther, a tuner is a good way to learn more about radio and can save your finals but nothing beats a resonant antenna for creating pileups

[@paulm0hpd319]

Unfortunately a resonant antenna doesn't guarantee efficiency or that the impedance or swr is going to be low

[@fredbissnette3104]

@@paulm0hpd319 if you have nothing coming back in and your getting out like gangbusters then I'd say it's resonant

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@fredbissnette3104 resonant means the impedance is resistive, a resonant antenna can have any impedance that doesn't match the feedline

[@fredbissnette3104]

@@paulm0hpd319 thanks for hamslpaining it to me but what im saying is when you have the least amount of current coming back into your radio keeping your finals happy while at the same time having the most amount of current coming off the end of your antenna you will also have the ability to be heard the loudest your radio can transmit.

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@fredbissnette3104 where do you think the reflected power is going ?

[@flipster7285]

An atu is in my view something for the modern era of hoa wars, limited space and convenience. Don't have the space and don't feel like getting up and going out to change the links on your linked dipole? Just get an atu. Multiband antenna to work all bands while keeping the hoa karens off your back? Atu! But in the end, to each his own. BUT, not having an atu is NOT an excuse to not be able to use more than one band. I have a linked dipole, 80, 40,20 and 10, all sections resonant in the middel of the phone portions and my IC-729 works beautifully on all 4 those bands.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Perfect!

[@DonzLockz]

Thats a nice shade of purple Callum.... nine more to go. :) Good practical info again.👍

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Thanks 👍

[@moondog_radio]

not sure this strategy would work on an end fed random wire... where it's not actually resonant on most bands... but yet tunable on most.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Ah well, clearly.. Join the dots :)

[@petersorensen9440]

My inductance switches arc when increase power to 100 watts.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Oh!

[@petersorensen9440]

I put mfj 901 aside. Ten tec 247 much better.

[@chrisbartlett6022]

I like Purple, not sure about Nail Varnish though 🙂

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Not done the toenails (yet!)

[@carlubambi5541]

One day I would like to get my radio licence .I picked up a beat up uniden HR 2510 with an old antron 99 and a Wilson 1000 magnet mount .And a sadedlta echo microphone .The original microphone is missing for the radio .and 109 feet of the Heavy RG6 and a 10 amp power supply and some radio shack power/swr meter and a 100 Watt dummy load .It belonged to an elderly man and the nephews were selling off his estate ..paid a whole $50 for it .I have yet to set it up some where .It does power up and it puts out 25 watts on ssb ..I think it needs a new molex connector for the speaker and CW .Have to figure out what to do .There was more stuff in bins but I diddnt have the time to go through it was on my way to a service call on a saturday .Who knows what these boys gave away !

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Amazing!

[@carlubambi5541]

@@DXCommanderHQ isn't it crazy how so many past hobbies get swept under the rug and then come back ,not because of fashion but because of function and form !

[@2321brendan]

Interesting chart. The SWR on my open wire line 1m long to ATU is 1074:1 . I must be getting about 1mW of 10w power to the antenna? Or when I use a 1/2 wl of ladder line to a 50ohm antenna(multi band 40m dipole) Im losing 64% of my power at 9:1 SWR?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Well.. open wire feeder of course has different characteristics to coax.. Say 450 line to a balanced ATU is just fine.

[@2321brendan]

@@DXCommanderHQ could I have used 1m of RG213? 32m Dipole/doublet on 80m. Feedpoint 10 -391 ...SWR 50 @ load end 216:1 . Mismatch loss =17.3dB ie 98.2% power reflected. efficiency of 1m RG213 95.08%. How much power after tuner output(antenna side) is lost ? ie heating coax...... 98.2%?

[@grahamlwilson]

Thanks for this information

[@g4lmn-ron401]

I have an ATU with built in cross needle SWR meter, most of the time it's switched out. I use the ATU on 80 and the top end of 10 and that's it. Do your toes match your fingers? Nice nail varnish!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Not done the toes (yet!)

[@beyondmiddleagedman7240]

I built my own ATU out of scrap bin parts so I could use my resonant at 40m antenna on 80m.

[@dxexplorer]

I can teach you about nail polish haha. I'm using it for toroids ))) This is great info that I didn't know about. Talking about bandwidth. I'm sure I read about it... but never really paid attention to detail. So this just ringed a bell when is about building antennas. Thank you for this. 73

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Thanks for sharing!!

[@dxexplorer]

@@DXCommanderHQ Thank YOU. 73

[@timprice1284]

Very interesting video! Thank ND4A

[@DXCommanderHQ]

My pleasure!

[@richb.4374]

I use an 80 meter doublet so I'm pretty much forced to use an ATU. If you use an ATU properly they can be quite efficient. If you use one improperly, you can destroy your own signal in losses. I've lost count of how many hams I've heard arguing about them. The key to using an ATU correctly is understanding how they work and understanding the limitations of the antenna system you're trying to match with it. Trying to tune a 30 foot long dipole up on the 160 meter band is not going to work worth a damn no matter what tuner you try to use. You can't cheat the laws of physics. Let's say you run a yagi and the match is not so great on the end of the band. An ATU can correct this with very little loss and you can enjoy using your yagi where it normally wouldn't work due to the SWR protection circuit. In other words...on coax fed antenna's use the ATU to correct minor mismatches and on balanced feed you have to use them all the time. For coax fed antenna's it would be best to just tune the antenna flat for where you operate, but not all antenna's will cover an entire band with an acceptable match.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

You are so right!

[@djernairchecks]

I built a few fan verticals and enjoyed not having to fiddle with the tuner when I wanted to move bands, using multiband antennas its almost always a must though as there is a compromise somewhere, with some exceptions. Most equipment will tolerate 2:1 and even 3:1 in ham radio, that is fine, the losses are not that great. but in broadcast where I spend my time, almost everything has either a ATU, slugs and or transformers for our fixed frequency cuz a quarter wave vertical at 1mhz is ~300ft (~90m) and towers plus land for a radial system are a premium. a 2:1 SWR or even 1.5 can be devastating as we could see several thousand watts back down the coax into the transmitter. but its nice seeing 42KW forward and 7 watts coming back :-) - KN4MYB

[@DXCommanderHQ]

42kW and 7W return! Wow :)

[@BlueCubAdventures]

Ok serious question this time… So after using an ATU an antenna that’s normally 6:1 still only yields half power? WY7WL

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Apparently, I was only reading a chart.. But the general opinion is about right (also depends on the coax)

[@JosephAnthonyJosefius]

It's too bad you can't use 75 meters, I am on most nights 1:00AM - 3:00AM UTC on 3.916 where we rag chew and play Trivia, other than that, I use the lower part of 80 3.500 since I'm a CW operator. 73 de AI5DD, cheers. Edit: I did have my tuner on COAX Direct and found I didn't need a tuner on 40 and 20 meters with my 80-10 EFHW that's up via a 35 foot military camo net mast in an inverted vee config, 132 feet of wire.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Very Cool Joe!

[@Capt_Duffy]

Absolutely correct....!!!!!

[@dwaynehoffmann8538]

Love it!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Me too!

[@kwinzman]

If my antenna feed line has a 6:1 SWR before the antenna tuner. And the antenna tuner matches that for me so the radio sees a 1:1 SWR. I am still only getting ~50% of the power radiated at the antenna, right? Where does the rest of the power go? (which part will get hot?).

[@paulm0hpd319]

The radio will produce it maximum power into the system, all that power will be radiated by the antenna less any loss in the feedline, if it was a lossless feedline ^of which they are not ^ all the power will be radiated by the antenna

[@M0RMY]

Why is your feedline 6:1? that is just illogical - feedline doesn't radiate it is matched to the radio at 50 Ohms (hopefully). Tune the antenna correctly as this the only factor that is variable.

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@M0RMY a resonant folded dipole is 6.1 swr

[@g0fvt]

That is not automatically the case at all. If your feeder losses are minimal the reflected power will be rereflected. The 50% reflected power IS NOT LOST. A publication called "Reflections" by Walter Maxwell is a good document to read, it dispels many of the ham myths. Obviously there are extreme cases that can make a very inefficient system. Having said all that, a manual tuner can be a chore if you are band -hopping, it is much more convenient to use a reasonably matched antenna that is ready to use immediately with no other "boxes" needed in the feedline.

[@M0RMY]

@@paulm0hpd319 ???

[@CentralCoastAmateurRadioClub]

Love love this!

[@acestudioscouk-Ace-G0ACE]

Wiggly waves are just like humans, they are looking for the easy way out. If you have a resonant antenna, the wiggly waves rush up the coax and are happy to jump off the end of the antenna into the big wide world. If the antenna is not resonant, you can help the wiggly waves with an ATU but some will get lost and end up as heat and few more will get lost with the extra connections. If the exit route and connections become too much for the wigglies, you would be better drawing an escape map for them to get out! LOL 🤣

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Haha.. That is SO perfect!

[@ke8wlw]

is an ATU just an antenna tuna?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yep!

[@Fmaj7b5]

yes!

[@penguin9952]

I use an atu but only because my antenna’s are fed with ladder line.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Perfect!

[@johnnorth9355]

I use primarily a long wire with a 49:1 transformer which has it's frequencies but as I mess with the configuration and wire length I use an ATU both to increase the bands that it will work with and to resolve any SWR problems created by unusual orientations. No science is used in these experiments - just me messing around. Life is too short not to have an experiment or two 🙂. 73 M7BLC

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Indeed John, great application!

[@alanreader4815]

way hey DX commander goes all punk on us 🤣

[@DominicMazoch]

US 80m is 3.5-4.0.

[@M0RMY]

Like he said on the screen

[@rickeaston3228]

Having a good quality tuner is very handy to have around. for a lot of reasons. But buying one of those over priced junk ones with crappy made in house parts is not worth it. You can make a better turner for less money with carefully chosen parts is better. A good quality tuner will last a lifetime.

[@DominicMazoch]

15m should tune fine on a 40m dipole.

[@daveblackford6097]

I cut a 40 M dipole, and trimmed it to work on 40, but I didn't have any luck getting the antenna tuner to work on 12, 15, or 17. Hearing this makes me wonder if it's because I used an MFJ, (Manufactured Junk), for a tuner.

[@frankmooney7282]

I use 34 ft 40m gm vertical. 1.25-1.9 swr across 40m and 1.4 swr across all 15m as 3rd harmonic. 55 countries and all 50 States so far from Arizona. Old Icom 7200 and no amplifier, just 100watts.

[@daveblackford6097]

@@frankmooney7282 that's really cool.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Folks, there's a trick to the 40m / 15m conundrum. I'll make a video about it..!

[@daveblackford6097]

@@DXCommanderHQ I'm looking forward to it.

[@macgyver5108]

I've never understood why anyone would WANT an antenna tuner Callum! Last I checked, the whole point of "radio" is to make contacts, preferably as far as possible too. That means you want a good resonant antenna, not one that needs a lot of tuning!?😎 I suppose there's a market for ATU's to "appliance operators" though eh?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

More stuff..

[@wilfredswinkels]

Your totally right Cal. As a fellow musician, you know an antenna is like a tuning fork. to get maximum efficiency an antenna has to be resonant. All the tuner does is absorb your very expensive Watts from your very expensive linear amplifier and convert it to heat. 😀

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Well said!

[@paulm0hpd319]

Absolutely incorrect, you are totally misinformed on what a tuner does

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@DXCommanderHQ I am disappointed you agree with these comments

[@MirlitronOne]

PLUS, SWR notwithstanding, all ATUs are lossy anyway!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Well, everything is lossy :)

[@pcrequest]

Some newcomers would benefit if you say what "ATU" stands for.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Look it up.

[@kevinkc3onohelijeepworld953]

It’s better to have resonant antenna less losses. I run a hw doublet feed with 4” open spaced Toad Harbor feedline 12awg thru a dentron super tuner

[@paulm0hpd319]

Resonance doesn't guarantee efficiency, resonance only means its resistive not matched

[@NYCMNYBY]

Sorry that I'm late to the party, but my two cents. ATU's are necessary for use of non resonant antennas as most know. An ATU essentially fools a transmitter to protect the overheating of power output transmitters, and failure of amplifier finals. The ATU gives the appearance of acceptable matching between a radio power output circuit and the antenna, but does nothing to compensate for antenna efficiency at a given frequency when the VSWR is greater than 2:1. Thus 100 watts of power is reduced proportionately to the amount of RF energy that's reflected back to the point of origin.

[@marciniwaniuk8176]

With higher swr you are risking that you will damage your pa in TRX. And most od us can live with less power in antena, but not with damaged pa :) As you said if antenna is resonan and Has swr celów 2:1 then atu is useless. In all other cases it's good to have it.

[@paulm0hpd319]

Are you saying reflected power will damage your equipment?

[@marciniwaniuk8176]

@@paulm0hpd319 yes it can.. connect 20W TRX DirectX to any kind of TRX and start transmitting. After domek timer your transistors will stop working. Is three any other reason that modern TRX Has high swr protection ?

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@marciniwaniuk8176 a folded dipole has an impedance of close to 300ohms, feed it with 300 ribbon feeder ,it's a perfect match no reflected power on your feedline, yet your radio may blow because of the feedline impedance at the radio,reflected power joins the forward power it isn't absorbed by the radio

[@marciniwaniuk8176]

@@paulm0hpd319 in such case what swr you have? Use this antenna with 50phm feeder and without atu. You've asked if high swr can damage TRX, and yes it can.

[@paulm0hpd319]

@@marciniwaniuk8176 I asked you if you where saying that reflected power from an antenna impedance mismatch caused radio damage,,,no it doesn't!

[@ToddRichmond]

life is too short for non-resonant antennas...

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Haha! Maybe :) Depends on space I guess down low, like 80m and 160m..

[@paulm0hpd319]

Really ! Resonance doesn't guarantee an impedance match or efficiency, a non resonant antenna can be just as efficient if not more efficient than a resonant antenna

[@simply-ericcole8201]

Does Higher SWR Lead to Lower Power Being Transmitted? Not always so dramatically. Believe it or not, 100 percent of the power is actually trans- mitted in both of the previous examples. In the first case, with a 50 Ω antenna, it’s easy to see how all the power is transferred to the antenna to be radiated since there are no reflections. In the second case, the 33 percent voltage reflection travels back down to the transmitter where it doesn’t stop but is re-reflected from the transmitter back toward the antenna along with the forward wave. The energy bounces back and forth inside the cable until it’s all radiated by the antenna for a lossless trans- mission line. An important point to realize is that with extremely low loss transmission line, no matter what the SWR, most of the power can get delivered to the antenna. www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/q1106037.pdf

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Indeed. Each time it bounces back and forth, you will be suffering more and more loss. But that would have made the video a LOT longer. Hopefully some of the newbies got the gist of it though.

[@simply-ericcole8201]

@@DXCommanderHQ Unless you use open wire feeder, then it's possible for the waves to add in phase and amplify ;-) Walter Maxwell said... The antenna tuner really does tune the antenna to resonance, in spite of opinions to the contrary of those who are unaware of the principles of conjugate matching. The tuner obtains a match, by which all reactances throughout the entire antenna system are canceled, including that of the off-resonant antenna, thereby tuning it to resonance." What most people haven't grasped is that the re-reflected energy will be in phase with the generator so the two signals will add. This can create more forward power in the coax than the transmitter is actually producing. It is possible to measure 125 Watts forward power from a 100 Watt transmitter because the re-reflected power adds to the transmitter power. This blew me away decades ago, and I've been educating people ever since.

[@simply-ericcole8201]

@@DXCommanderHQ What's your email Cal ? I want to send you a PDF, I know you will find it very interesting.

[@garymacleod5071]

Excellent, thanks. MM3SCO Gary

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Hi Gary. No worries friend.