Eternal Security & Perseverance (Preservation) of the Saints | Dr. James White

What is the difference between perseverance or preservation of the saints in biblical monergistic (Reformed/Calvinist) theology and once-saved-always-saved eternal security in sub-biblical synergistic (Provisionist/Arminian) theology?
Only the Reformed view can provide a true assurance of salvation, while any type of synergistic (man's autonomous free will) system has no reason to believe in eternal security.
Excerpt from the Dividing Line program aired on October 27, 2020
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[@GeorgeJansen]

In fact, some denominations get a lot of mileage (i.e. Money/favors etc ) out of Salvation insecurity. Because when you keep people from knowing that they are eternally secured, you can control them. For As long as you can keep people from knowing that nothing can separate them from their relationship with God (Romans 8:35 ~39), you can get them to do a lot of things that if they don't do it, they might lose their salvation.

[@arsenalboy4ever]

I believe in Calvinism

[@friendlyfire7509]

You believe Christ.

[@grantjepson1735]

"It still depends upon their belief".... i cant believe this guy is really saying we arent saved by grace THROUGH FAITH". But i supposed you think faith is a work somehow 🤔🤷‍♂️

[@File001]

He is indeed affirming we are justified through faith alone. But it is important to recognize that our faith is not what justifies us, but rather Christ’s righteousness is what justifies us. Faith is only an instrument by which we receive Christ and His righteousness and that faith is itself a gracious gift of God to His elect people, a result of Holy Spirit working in our heart when we heard the Word of God - the Gospel. That is the Reformed and biblical view. I highly recommend you take look at Westminster Larger Catechism questions 70.-73. which summarize this very well. thewestminsterstandard.org/westminster-larger-catechism/ In non-Reformed position, God’s election is conditioned upon our belief. That is, God knows who will react positively to the Gospel message and believe it, and based on that He elects them to salvation. In this system faith is not a gracious gift of God, but indeed “a work”, or rather an action of a person that merits God’s election of him/her to salvation. The problem is that salvation cannot be purely by grace, because those who repent and believe are in some way better (i.e. more humble to receive the Gospel) than those who don’t. There’s no way around that. While biblical (and Reformed) position is that all are equally unable to come to Christ in faith and are completely dependent on God’s mercy and grace to change their heart from stone to flesh, and enable them to repent and believe, having done nothing to merit it. The Reformed view is that saving faith is supernatural gift of God through working of the Holy Spirit in fallen man, and as such will persevere to the end. It may weaken at times but will never go away and will always look to Christ as our only righteousness. Non-Reformed view is that saving faith is a natural ability of fallen man, upon which God’s ability to save that person is dependent. It may last to the end, it may not. And if it doesn’t, then that person loses their salvation (at least that is logically entailed, while there are some who claim that even if a person stops believing altogether, goes into atheism or false religion, they will still be saved because one time they did believe, and “once saved, always saved”, which is utterly unbiblical). Hope this clarifies the issue.

[@grantjepson1735]

Thank you for the reply. I agree that Christ's righteousness is what justifies us. But I don't agree that faith is a gift, according to the grammar in the original language with ephesians 2:8 showing that gift does not refer to faith but the entire clause. "This" is neuter, and "faith" is feminine, so "this" cannot be talking about "faith." It appears in the reformed view people are not saved through faith but actually by election. Faith is something you merely are given along the way. So why doesn't the verse say you were saved by grace through election? Yet Jesus tells us to have faith. Why would he tell us that if some could never have it because He would never give it to them? Shouldn't Jesus say seek to see if you were elected? And faith is not a meritorious work. Accepting a gift does not mean you earned the gift. In fact if someone said I cannot stand up to God's standard and then says I trust that Jesus can in my place, he is passively accepting Jesus's grace without doing a work. Paul contrasts faith and works, so having faith cannot be something you earn.

[@File001]

Sorry for not replying sooner, I was sick over the last 5 days… I agree that “gift of God” in Eph 2:8 refers to the whole clause. That’s the point - everything in regards to salvation is gift of God, including faith. “It appears in the reformed view people are not saved through faith but actually by election. Faith is something you merely are given along the way.” No, in the Reformed view people are elected unto salvation (2 Thess 2:13), and those appointed unto eternal life will believe (Acts 13:48). Election unto salvation and eternal life happens before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), and is brought about in history through faith in the elect, in some point in their lives. The two are not contrary one to another, as you seem to imply. Also, in John 6:35-71 we see that those given by the Father to the Son are drawn by the Father to come to the Son, and as the result they come to Him and will never be cast out, because the Son will perfectly accomplish the Father’s will to lose none of them given to Him. Giving the elect by the Father to the Son causes them to come to the Son and believe in Him to be saved perfectly (John 6:37-40. Drawing the elect by the Father to the Son causes them to come to the Son (John 6:44-45). Election in eternity past causes faith in the elect in time in history. This is why in Reformed view regeneration precedes and causes faith, whereas in non-Reformed view faith precedes and causes regeneration. In only one of those views can be said that salvation is all of God, without any cooperation of men. “Shouldn't Jesus say seek to see if you were elected?” Well, Peter in 2 Pe 1:2-12 tells us exactly that. “And faith is not a meritorious work.” It isn’t, of course. That’s why I put “a work” in scare quotes. We recognize the distinction between faith and works. But we look at it more deeply, a state of fallen mankind. Here’s one example to illustrate. Let’s say we have two individuals, both equally sinful, and both heard the same Gospel message equal amount of time, both understood it. One of them ends up repenting and believing, and the other doesn’t. What is the difference between the two? Why is one saved and the other isn’t? If you say “faith”, which one of them had, while the other didn’t, you’ve just given him the reason to boast. Because you have to be able to have faith. If that ability comes from ourselves, then we have to conclude that the one who has faith is simply a morally better person. At least more humble than the other who doesn’t have faith, humility being moral quality. All those are reasons to boast, which Eph 2:9 addresses. And you can’t say “grace” as the deciding factor because they both had equal opportunity to be saved, both offered the gift, but it was up to them to receive it. But in John 6:44, 65 Jesus clearly states that no one has that ability to come to Him in faith, unless enabled by the Father. Also, Romans 3:10-18 concludes that no one is seeking God. So, in our fallen state we are neither willing nor able to come to God in faith. And when we look at the example of those two individuals in light of that, the one who ends up repenting and believing can only say “It was pure grace. I did not seek God, but He sought me, enabled me to see my wretchedness, and given me the ability to repent and believe in Jesus to be saved.” And the question people in this situation inevitably ask is “Why me, and not that person who is better than me?” Because God chose you. “Why did he chose me, when I did nothing to deserve it, but instead have done horrible things?” Because he loved you. “Why did He love me, when I was so wicked?” Because He wanted to.

[@grantjepson1735]

@@File001 No worries, I hope you are feeling better! With regards to the thes, acts, and ephesians references, I would agree with you. I think the molinist view makes the most sense to me, so I would say God knew who would freely choose to have faith even before people were created, and that's why they are elected and given and so forth, so I guess the order of operations is different. John 6:64 gives the context to 6:65. The father only enables the people with faith to come to him. And he knew from the beginning who would have faith. John 12:32 states that Jesus draws all people to himself! But if that drawing causes people to come to him without choice, how is not everyone saved? Doesn't God want none to perish but all to come to eternal life? If it's totally up to him then isn't he contradicting himself in these verses? 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Cor 5:15, 1 Tim 2:3-6. The illustration with the two guys is interesting. I'll have to look more into that. But I think if faith is something you do, but isn't meritorious, how can you boast in it? And I agree that no one seeks God, although until he enables all men to seek him through prevenient grace. So if reality is truly fatalism and or determinism, how do you feel about men being "robots" with free choice being an illusion? Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

[@jessesmout7809]

Amen. Thank you Dr. James White!

[@bornbranded29]

This guy is a Calvinist or Christian?

[@File001]

Yes.

[@johnsix.51-69]

lol Calvinists be like, "Jesus loves you*" *Only if you are a part of the elect.

[@File001]

In its proper context, yes, God loves the elect in a way He doesn't love non-elect. He loves the elect with saving love, showing His mercy toward them in sending His Son to live the sinless life in perfect obedience to the Law in their place, and die the death they deserved as sinners in their place, so that their sins would be imputed to Christ, and Christ’s righteousness imputed to them when they believe in Him. Christ accomplished this perfectly by his incarnation, life, death and resurrection, and the elect are blessed recipients of that amazing grace, completely undeserved. Now if God loves every single person equally, and demonstrated this love Christ’s living and dying for (in the place of) every single person equally, you now have two options. One; every single person will be saved, because He took away everyone’s sins on the cross (even unbelief), and so no one can be judged, even if they never repent and believe. Two; Jesus’ perfect sinless life, atoning death, and resurrection is not enough to actually save anyone, but merely provided the way for man to save himself by doing x, y or z. Or in the direct opposite to option one, Christ took away all sins, except for unbelief, meaning He isn’t a perfect Savior. What about faith, you might ask. All people are born (spiritually) dead in and enslaved to sin [read Ephesians 2], so that they cannot by themselves do anything pleasing to God (including repent and believe in Christ, come to Christ) [read John 6], nor they want to because they hate God [read Romans 1-3]. Their will is not autonomously free, gut enslaved because of their sin nature, and all they can chose to do is sin. They cannot do anything perfectly good (i.e. not sin), with perfectly pure intentions to glorify God and not themselves. That’s why in order to be saved a person must first be brought to (spiritual) life, regenerated [read John 3]. Then, and only then can that person hear and understand the Scriptures, the Gospel in order to repent and believe it. So then, repentance and faith are the inevitable result of the regeneration which is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit, which man has nothing to do with, cannot cause it nor demand it (grace by definition cannot be demanded or invoked). Repentance and faith do not cause regeneration - it is the other way around. It’s an act of pure grace by God He demonstrates to the undeserving sinner solely because God wanted to. Why this sinner and not the other? That only God knows. Surely there was nothing good in that sinner that would merit that grace, but he is only left with asking: “Why me?”. Now since clearly not every single person will be saved, you now have two options. One; God regenerates only some people, while not the others, purely by His sovereign choice. Two; you have to turn this backward and have God regenerate only those people who first do something to merit it - i.e. repent and believe, meaning that salvation is no longer by pure grace, but man had some part in it, and really actualized it. God wasn’t able to do it in and of Himself without man’s cooperation. I hope this helps clarify the key issues.