Ethernet connections do have influence on the sound quality

[@JordanPhegley]

Thanks for tackling this subject again for us Hans

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

👍🏼

[@brown-eyedman4040]

Great information as always sir. For years we have heard how things can't possibly effect sound quality. And yet for years I and many others clearly hear differences.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

So true. Story of my life🤔

[@aussie8114]

Jaap and yourself get my vote of confidence. However having now got my system pretty complete I find the recording quality of the music is by far the important factor in the listening experience. Many recordings are far less than great.

[@Pok-001]

True. That’s why I went away from speaker’s tilted up or too analytical gear. Need my 90s music to sound good. 😂 Rolling Stones or Van Halen are good tests for a systems musicality

[@georgecav]

Totally agree! Rubbish in, rubbish out. Great sounding files sound great on almost anything and make much more difference than spending thousands on ‘better’ equipment. Also unfortunate Jaaps channel hasn’t done better as I find it great but perhaps he isnt enough of a charming influencer who I avoid like the plague. One of Jaaps videos included a Paul Pang network switch which was in two parts. One of its features was that the order in which various ethernet cables were located in the switch bodies made a difference to the sound. I played around with my Ubiquiti switch and also found it made a difference and worthwhile improvement and cost nothing but a little time and effort.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I must say that 90% of the music I play sounds good, although there are great differences in character as a result of the period the music is produced in.

[@aussie8114]

⁠@@Pok-001As I get older I prefer the less analytical. A bit warmer and rounded off upper mids is pleasing to my ears. Though many older recordings are still hard to listen to.

[@annebokma4637]

​@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannellisten to any sinterklaasliedjes and you know what bad quality sounds like 😂

[@Nefty_]

Amazing video Hans. Thanks also to Jaap. You and him are my two patreon donations and that is the reason why.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@AudioTnT]

After watching how vibration affects clock oscillators I put my DAC on isolation footers. Hope it makes a difference.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

All footers are equal but some are more equal than others 🤔

[@thinkIndependent2024]

Thanks!

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@thinkIndependent2024]

​@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannelNo Thank You !! I watched all your relevant Videos and Developed a software algorithm that can predict and map a Soundstage from a FLAC file and localize the instrument and voice location within inches... Of course I had to use an Amplifier with a unique regulated power supply . But again your phrase at the end of each video encouraged me along with Alan Blumlein patent notes.

[@michaelwright1602]

Thank you again Hans, another outstanding video.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏

[@jamesfarrow6752]

I recently had a network switch on loan from a dealer and it only took one evening of serious listening to realise what an improvement it made. I already had a switch designed for audio but the difference is much greater than I expected, I already have an ADOT fibre kit but because the new switch has SFP connections, the ADOT is now connected to one of the ports with my Melco server connected to the other. The addition of an SBooster power supply for the switch improves things further. The initial comparison was done using my previous configuration with my server connected directly to the ADOT so as to ensure this was a like for like compression. The SFP’s were then added followed by the SBooster I have absolutely no background in engineering and science but I have often wondered if the things we hear aren’t always measurable so I’m glad to see there is some evidence too. Thank you, Hans

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

thanks for sharing

[@daviddavidc2197]

EVERYTHING makes a difference (and not just audio)....some differences are large, some small, some positive, some negative. I'm old enough to remember arguing with electronic engineers back in the '70's about my own experiences with cables, stands, spikes and the like which are now accepted as mainstream and I'm sure it will always be so. The message is that we always need people like yourself who are prepared to challenge the norm, and who also possess the skills and resourcese to analyse and test alternative technologies. Keep up the great work!

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thank you, sir.

[@vladimirdorta6692]

Great, as always.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏

[@OldGuyHifi]

Thank you for clearing the air on this subject. I have been taking beating in my comment sections because I advocated for the use of a DDC. Good work.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏🏻

[@dudemastermaster8944]

Funny coincidence. I added the Ifi LAN silencer and the Lan Pro silencer last week and the benefits in sound were as stark as adding a new Dac/Streamer to my system. Complete game changer.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

👍🏼

[@truman4956]

Love the straight talk of Hans

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏🏽

[@Rick--A-F]

I use Cat8 throughout my network. I decided to ground the screen at the hifi end to see if it made any difference. I stripped the end of some wire, wrapped it around the metal on the end of the cable and connected the other end of the wire to the ground on my mains filter. I was surprised at how much the sound improved.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thanks

[@danielguderian4649]

interesting. clear presentation👍

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Glad you liked it

[@grommie]

Love this subject❤

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Me too

Great summary!

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏🏻

[@bakkerem1967]

I'm glad my ears are not that sensitive :-). Saves me a lot of hassle, and money. A close friend of mine does have very sensible ears, and he vastly prefers analog-from-source-to-speaker.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Enjoy the music.

[@giuseppelazzarotto2630]

Thank you Hans for this extremely clear and understandable video. An interesting aspect of managing digital data in a hifi system is the possibility of "playing" and experimenting and therefore keeping our passion alive, in addition to listening to good music obviously!

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Glad it was helpful!

[@DaSixSixOne]

Interesting that the best and worst measurements you pointed out used the same power supply. I upgraded my entire network setup with iFi Power X on router, two LHY SW-6 switches, Designacable Ethernet cables and a fiber connection to my streamer. Sibilance disappeared, soundstage improved and more. Hard to explain but it makes a difference. Thanks for all of your work in this field, Hans!

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

A high quality switch mode power supply is always a good choice for digital equipment, including switches.

[@orpheusdesinger8940]

Hi Hans, I spent some time watching your videos about network filtering. Thank you so much for all that info. Now I have decided to implement some filtering in my streaming system. I use a streaming device for music and an apple tv. In all your streaming setups you place the filter behind the ethernet switch. I was wondering if it would work if I put the ethernet switch behind the filter. In this setup I need one filter for two devices. (streamer & apple tv) Placing one filter before the switch is more cost effective. Will this work? Is there a reason why this is not a good idea? Thanks, Kris

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I haven't tried but it will depend on the switch you use. If that doesn't add any nasties, it might work.

[@francois3684]

Again, a great recap explanation of the causes and influence of jitter on sq. This gives me the opportunity to suggest this very cheap way to upgrade immensely the sq of any system: isolation of your electronics (switches, dac, power supplies, preamp…) with sponges (M. Clean magic eraser white and blue sponges - are the ones that gave the best result in m’y expérimentation). Place your electronics directly on a solid piece of wood (like IKEA cutting boards) with the sponges underneath, blue side facing down). Best upgrade I have ever made on my $60,000 sound system 😊- it will be obvious immediately to your ears - it’s RESONANCE CONTROL. For this idea, I have to give credit to you Hans and another KZbinr called Gabster who put me on the track of experiencing with vibration control. FIY, I also tried with yellow sponges coated with green scrubbing pad type but it added harshness to the sound.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thanks

[@urbangardan1]

I have five filters between the modem and streamer - each adds benefit - some remarkably so

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I know☺️

[@HansHinnekint]

Hello Hans, Thanks once more for your value insights. As an audiophile and IT engineer, I hear and notice the difference in sound when switching network gear and cabling. What I do not yet comprehend, is where the time jitter happens. On the network, the data is sent in blocks of bytes and on every switch/router in the path, checked for correctness (ask for resend in case of issues). This means that on the receiving end (Streamer) when converting this datablock to a clocked stream of bits, the jitter is introduced. Hence not on the network (where you rightfully state, that square waves are not really possible) but in the streaming device? Kind regards

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

As said, in the description there is a link to the white paper I mentioned in the video. Read that for a further explanation.

[@HansHinnekint]

So a fibre connection should solve this network interference and then it is for the streamer designer to do the conversion from optical to voltage and try to avoid the pico jitter?

[@rodrigosoler1]

Wifi is better or worst then ethernet cable for audio streaming in this case?

[@TomislavCapan]

Depends on the implementation and proper electrical / electromagnetic isolation. Optically coupled cable network connection breaks the electric coupling inside your streaming device to isolate from the rest od the wired network in your home. I wish all manifacturers would put such a socket in their streaming devices, it’s cheap to do, and all the stories on switches and network cables would be gone. Wifi module needs to be isolated electromagnetically so it doesn’t interfere with other chips, same as the chip handling the ethernet connector inside your streamer device. That sorts the noise issue inside the device. That’s proper electronic device design, that part is trickier than isolating the network/cable, especially with WiFi. Many companies reported issues with WiFi noise, Auralic is I think the only one claiming they tamed the WiFi, all others prefer cable.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

TomislavCapan is right. I would like to add that also the available bandwidth is a factor. In an apartment building with neighbours left, right, below and above you, chances are Wifi will not be the best solution.

[@ChaseNoStraighter]

I spent decades developing RF sources for superconducting RF accelerators where noise ,particularly phase noise, is critical. Jitter to phase noise scales with frequency so a frequency of 3.9 GHz is 19500 times is more sensitive that 20kHz and everything mentioned here is on steroids in that world. Oscillators are double or triple isolated and clock systems can take years to develop. What is most likely is that there is crosstalk between clock systems as even very small coupling will cause intermodulation in a nonlinear clock signal chain. I think our ears are very sensitive to IMD and that is probably those with ears that good are hearing. This is all fixable in a dac system but as you have demonstrated it takes motivation, setting a requirement, developing of the test setup and then the willingness to put the engineering effort in to it.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thanks for sharing

[@clothyardshafts]

Thank you so much for this presentation. The presentation raises a question for me. In the past, my DAC was served by music on my computer hard drive some forty feet away.the dacwas cabled to my computer via an Ethernet cable and a D-Link Ethernet switch box. Based on what I understand from Hans’ video - mine was probably not a setup rigged for optimal sound. A few years ago, I invested in a Roon Nucleus Plus and now, much of my music resides on the Nucleus. I download new music to my computer and then copy it (via that ethernet connection to the Nucleus. Do the downloaded files suffer permanent ‘damage’ as a result of having been transferred through the Ethernet switch box and cable?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

No, the files stay intact

[@vasiliydmitriev3723]

I noticed long ago that a cd ripped directly to my computer sounds same as it's played from a cd player, but the same cd being received in digital form via internet has a diminished quality sound. When I said about it on a forum I was laughed at, people say " you seem to appreciate more a cd that you bought than that you got via Internet by torrent".

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

That is probably due to different mastering, not to equipment.

[@frankvisler9596]

I don understand how a clocking crystal is related to a network switch, what part did i not understand. Personally i belive in almost all matters, but i think i more see as transport device maybe like a bg for old albums and i cant understand how this can impct sound, unless the recving device lack buffers space or alike... the signals being recive at this moment might the the signals to be proccesed for the sound in 5-10 secs depening on buffers etc.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

See the video next week

[@frankvisler9596]

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel great - i look forward to this and maybe learn/understand new stuff

[@Bottlestyx]

Hans I wish my bass went this deep!😊

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Start dgging😂

[@jamescrewe7242]

Another great video

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thanks again!

[@eirikbardalen7771]

Thanks for the video Hans. Im only missing more about how much it affects the analog signal OUT of the DAC, since most DACs of today have so high resistance to jitter. More jitter into the DAC doesn’t necessary mean degraded soundquality OUT of the DAC.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

If the digital analog conversion is faulty, the analog signal is a result of that and thus will be distorted.

[@ErikBleeker]

​Thank you for this I think the question of @erikbardalen7771 is most relevant. What I miss in your video and your response is why DACs are so susceptible to a (slightly) deformed shape of the digital bits. Many digital systems have error correction build in and in most digital systems a network component transfers the signal from input to output which in turn is delivered to the DAC. So shouldn't this discussion be on (a) the quality of the build in network components and (b) what the tolerance is of DACs?

[@swinkles]

Is it safe to say that WiFi is the preferred connection because it completely removes the need for better switches and ethernet cables, etc? When I bought my HoloAudio Red earlier this year, I didnt care that it is not WiFi capable because I thought i would definitely use a wired connection anyway. Now I'm thinking in the opposite direction. I was already planning on trying the new version of the Bluesound Node once Dirac Live is ready to be used with it. An added benefit is that it works on WiFi. It strikes me now that the Node will be the only dedicated streamer that Dirac is compatible with. It would be nice to have some higher-end options, my understanding is that the Node's sonic performance is only average. Speaking of which, I wonder if the new Node Icon is worth the extra money just for streaming quality. I dont want to pay for better DAC performance when I'm not going to use it as a DAC.

[@jmtennapel]

WiFi is the worst connection, unless the manufacturer has gone out of its way to isolate the noise from the transmitter/receiver of the wifi signal in the component. Auralic is the only brand that I know of.

[@medonk12rs]

@@swinkles ... my stone age Auralic Aries 1st gen sounds words using WiFi instead of LAN. Probably noise by the WiFi module being the reason.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

It all depends, as I have said many times.

[@aaronpimanfo4854]

Merci cher ami!🙏💙

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Avec plaisir.

[@rambler3080]

Doesn’t wifi transmission largely avoid some of these transmission line issues, especially when the bits are dumped into a buffer and then entirely reclocked by receiving device? Naim have claimed that there is no degradation with wifi transmission as long as signal adequate (ie no dropouts).

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

See the white paper mentioned in the description

[@rambler3080]

@ I asked you about wifi transmission and you referred me to Swenson’s paper, but it doesn’t mention anything about wifi.

[@rambler3080]

@@NTR-Impactok but all of that is buffered and reclocked before being processed by DAC. The number of re transmits shouldn’t have any bearing on sound.

[@drivingdan55]

Thank you Hans for the 'simple' scientific explanation that most people can understand. But most of us audiophiles would rather be considered crazy and ridiculous and ignorant while enjoying our music.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

👍🏼

[@patrickmartin4482]

I like the research, but the bumb to the box may be a moving probe as well .. that is difficult to use as an argument for now

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

That makes sense. Thanks.

[@MichaelSáenz-b1n]

Hans, thank you so much for this information. Do you have any recommendations about ethernet switches, or the physical placement of DACs?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

See my playlist Audio grade network switches: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nai3coeBmZtsfLM&pp=gAQBiAQB

[@krismccall4911]

Well done, I had purchased a network switch and will not go back

[@Infynyte]

@@krismccall4911 Hello mate, please what network switch you get for your system? Cheers!

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

🙏🏻

[@Infynyte]

Please what network switch you get for your system? Cheers!

[@krismccall4911]

@ gustard

[@scientificaudiophile]

Sadly, when buying a switch, how do we know which one sounds better? Also, your video says "Members First" but I don't see a JOIN button?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I meant the KZbin Premium subscription.

[@trekkis]

Of course they can - by simply introducing additional electrical noise. So galvanic isolation is good thing.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

It's not only galvanic separation...

[@dannyrichie9743]

You are right, those of us that can hear these differences have been aware of them for a really long time. It is always funny to me how many people think that digital is just 1's and 0's. It is only written in code that way. The transmission has always been an analog electrical signal of high or low voltages. As with any electrical signal, it is easily effected by RFI, EMI, any stray electrical fields, the ground plane voltage, shielding, and dielectric absorption or constant, etc. It is very fragile and easily altered in a way that affects the conversion process.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

So true

[@cnc_channel510]

We have protocols that take care of package transmission. Transmission is in most cases not an analog electrical signal. By definition, electrical signal of high and low voltages that is encoded, is not an analog signal. For example if we use TTL, acceptable voltage for low is between 0 and 0.8V, for high it will be 2 to 5V. So we would need induction due to noise of at least 2V, to convert digital zero to digital one. Anything less has no effect whatsoever. And even then, we check packages and we either resend them, or we know that packages were being lost. Further more, we usually use differential signal transmission with twisted pairs, so it is actually delta voltage that matters, not absolute. As wires are twisted pairs, anything induced on one wire due to noise, will be induced on another one, and delta stays the same. Ethernet cables, wireless signal, anything of that matter, makes absolutly no difference whatsoever in sound quality. Don't be naive. If we have for example poor wifi signal, packages have to be sent over and over again, and you will expirience poor transmission speeds and you won't keep up with filling up the buffer - youtube video or song will pause in between, but anything that does play, is of perfect quality and intact.

[@PainterVierax]

@@cnc_channel510 don't waste your time with those pseudo-scientists. It's just not worth it.

[@ErikBleeker]

@@PainterVierax Completely agree and well stated. With an IT background it's mindboggling how poorly the research is done. Essential steps are left out for reasons I can't understand. Just some aspects that appear totally out of scope for these "ethernet cable quality influences digital audio quality" discussions:" 1. If audio quality is influenced, why isn't the quality of all data (video, spreadsheets, etc)? 2. Following the logic of @TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel, how is encrypted traffic influenced? Minute changes in the signal will cause that encrypted data useless. 3. And when listening to streaming services, isn't the resulting quality a sum-up of all intermediate connections? So what if the server is located on the other side of the world?

[@mikeconnell698]

Great video. Jitter (time) distortion is more annoying and in smaller amounts than other types of distortion. Most test gear averages the measure being looked at over 1000s of cycles. You don't get to see instantaneous values.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thanks for the tips!

[@renatomorais8136]

I try to follow Alpha Audio as much as I can but I hadn't seen that clock video. That's insane!! As to CAT cables, it was another thing that I could not believe when I heard it. I've changed from some generic amazon CTA6 cables to another generic CAT8 because I needed different sizes and the 8s were on sale. It was an immediate difference and I'm not saying that is due to the 8s being thicker and having more shielding but ones are clearly better than the others. I think I even heard Jaap saying that maybe shielded cables might not sound as good as non-shielded. There's so little we know about audio, how music forms in our brain that one really has to hear and decide, regardless of what theories have to say. Science isn't final and I think in this field, it doesn't even know how to frame questions the right way, there are concepts missing that we still don't know about.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

So true

[@mesterha]

Great video. Very informative. I assume some amount of jitter is already baked into the signal during the original A/D process. Any work on removing it? I've been thinking that deep neural nets might work. They are already used to up sample images to higher resolutions. Should be relatively easy to create training data with music that has typical A/D embedded jitter. Has anyone done this?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

There might be jitter introduced to music during recording. But given the quality of the music I play, that is not often the case. 'Digitally remastered' versions of older albums can suffer from that because certain record companies are not willing to spend money on the remastering.

[@mesterha]

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel My personal streaming experience is that maybe 20% of recordings have modest but tangible benefit from improvements on the digital side. Probably another 60% have gone from almost unlistenable to decent on a revealing system. I take this to support the idea that jitter is baked into the signal and the there are thresholds were it becomes much more noticeable when combined with playback jitter and noise. Maybe you restrict yourself to that 20%.

[@MogensBuskbjerg]

Thanks for your always interesting videos. An idea for a video! Does changing fuse affect the sound?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

There is so much to cover and only about 50 videos a year. I'll put it on the list but no promises.

[@High-Fi-Stereo]

Having MU2 allowed me to listen to digital with Ethernet cable fully disconnected , local files I can play with no network and Qouboz I can disconnect cable after 30 seconds of playback since entire track is already downloaded to the RAM of MU2 and it can continue playing with no cable at all .. This way you can fully listen and measure how network influences your digital playback , I was really not expecting local playback to be affected but it does . Hans should be able to reproduce my experience with MU2 and no Ethernet …

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

👍🏼

[@carstenrosemann6526]

What's about the switch from UniFi, think they are audiophile.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I haven’t reviewed it so I can’t say

[@noahbirdrevolution]

Hard to argue. I've not spent much time on this subject, but I'm curious as to how the POE is dealt with when receiving an audio signal. I know power from a USB that's transmitting data can create higher noise than running power from separate psu so the USB is data only. Could not only switch and cable quality, but how POE is dealt with by the convertor board create more noise?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I have not tried this but your reasoning makes sense.

[@patrickmccrank8414]

I can't explain why some things sound better. I either hear a difference or I don't. People who say "it cant be because I cant measure or explain it". Then be satisfied with a "lesser" system.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

👍🏼

[@connorduke4619]

Hans, the Effe-01 Optical Ethernet Isolator (using fibre-glass) for 400 pounds got a positive review from Srb at iiWi. Would be great to see your review of it as well.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

There are many device and only 52 fridays in a year🤔

[@theklipschcave3389]

Very interesting. Digital doesn't mean perfect...

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Nor does analog😄

[@tongsan523]

That's why Zero G sensitivity oscillators are so darn expensive.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

👍🏼

[@deepvillage]

After watching your latest informative video Hans I feel like I must really be sonically in bad shape , where all my kit sits is against the exterior side wall on a metal stand w thick glass shelves , the components have isolators yes , the spkrs are perpendicular to the stand closest is 7.5 M ……but because there is no Ethernet connection..and not easy to run to that location ( wife won’t accept cables taped to floor holes in wall etc ) I have to use wifi 😨 I stream FLAC files to my Rivo then on to the Cyan2 , till your revelation I was thinking it sounded pretty good, however I realize that Ethernet is always recommended to be the best choice …. So w my wifi setup now assuming that what I’m actually receiving is an even less accurate stream of 1’s and 0’s …!?

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Wifi can sound good if the Wifi equipment is good and up to date and there is not too much. use of the bandwidth by surrounding wifi users.

[@deepvillage]

@ well the wifi is good with a booster closish…and not so much traffic on it so perhaps it’ll suffice …much appreciated Hans , from one old audio guy to another 🙂

[@thomprd]

Most science isn't done with double blind testing. It's impossible to double blind almost any nutrition study, for instance. And most engineering doesn't involve the type of testing that the few self proclaimed experts demand.

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

Thanks for sharing

[@jakobgooijer]

Actually, people are right when they say that you hear things that aren't there...they are probably talking about noise. We hear that very well when it is absent

[@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel]

I wonder