Eurovision 2023: The event that divided Europe

The Eurovision Song Contest was wild this year, to say the least... As a Eurofan, the detailed results of this year's contest have been living rent free in my mind for two weeks, and in this video, I'm putting my - and europe's - feelings into words. Cause what exactly went wrong this year, and how are we supposed to approach the event moving forward?
Time stamps:
0:00 Intro
1:24 The Jury
7:44 The Televote
11:03 The ABBA Conspiracy
16:28 The Aftermath
19:37 The Future
27:40 Conclusion

[@NoClueHonestly]

Another sidenote: I think becoming 2nd was actually better for Käärijä career-wise than winning. Being the "robbed underdog" is like the golden recipe for public support. If he won, people would've been happy, but he probably would've been forgotten pretty soon because people got what they wanted. Now they didn't, so they feel more inclined to support him long-term. He's also 100% guaranteed to be the Verka of the 2020s, he can basically pick and choose whatever pre-parties and future interval acts he wants and I'd be very surprised if he wasn't invited to perform in Stockholm next year. He's already iconic and people will talk about him whenever Eurovision season comes around

[@aliciabergman1252]

I definitly think so too

[@Bundeskaiser]

maybe, but Finland got still robbed. They aren't allowed to host the contest, while Sweden is, and it also makes them tie for most wins, which is a big deal regarding Eurovision history. Käärijä might be the one who suffers least from that.

[@softeststages]

when I i saw the first reaction of the results, i immediately thought of verka as well! so excited for him to have this opportunity honestly, he seems such a genuine and lovely guy, he definitely deserves all the success and praise he is getting

[@NoClueHonestly]

​@@Bundeskaiser hosting is really expensive, YLE might even be relieved lol, also because of the anniversary they would've been forced to center things around ABBA one way or another which would be annoying

[@hwslietpol]

this situation also already happened this year with the polish national selections and jann. jann was 2nd place because of the jury, blanka won also because of the jury. jann has so many more fans than blanka probably ever will aswell because of him being the, as you said, robbed underdog

[@Ama-Elaini]

Eurovision 2023: The event that divided Europe Eurovision 2024: _"Hold my Jenever"_

[@Hobbynewsy]

Ikr

[@ellaradet-kirby4501]

The people who thought ESC 2023 was crazy were NOT ready for ESC 2024

[@annnee6818]

Yeah. She should discuss that😂

[@urlocalchangeling8740]

no fr I was thinking the same thing. can't wait for the deep dives to follow this mess

[@SenpapiTT]

I would've loved to see Finland win and it sucks that that didn't happen, but honestly I feel way worse for Germany. Last year they sent in a slower ballad and they didn't get any points. This time they went with the complete opposite and only got 3 points. It feels like it doesn't matter what they send in, because they won't receive points anyways

[@loulouvouu]

why does everyone forget about 2018 when Germany sent a beautiful song with decent staging and got 4th? they can get points if they try hard enough. last year's song was boring and forgettable, this year's song looked more like a parody and was easily outshined by other stars so that was an obvious outcome

[@agirlinabasementofyourdaddy]

Remember Germany in 2010-2012, they managed to grab Top 10 easily, same with 2018. The problem with Germany is, that they do not necessarily send bad songs (expect 2019, that was garbage), their songs are not competitive enough.

[@annikaParnda]

@@loulouvouu I dont fully agree. While 2018 was a nice song with a good stage perfomance and I listen to it very regularly, it was a generic pop ballad sung in english and nothing i would personally consider eurovision winner potential. So I do prefer sending more original songs and (pleasee) not recreating 2018 but if our current entries hit that spot.... I dont think so :D

[@ramonaheart]

It's because Europe is very conservative. The eurofans, inside the bubble, are able to appreciate their song regardless of being a goth metal one. But the older people who actually get to vote (and, of course, the jury) tend to ignore or even show prejudice against extreme music genres. People forget that Lordi was an exception and think that any other metal song can do as good, but let's be honest, this won't happen anytime soon.

[@sairhug]

@@ramonaheart You're discounting the fact that this year's Finnish entry had a very strong (industrial) metal component ... Käärijä being a huge Rammstein fan to the extent of having a tattoo of a mix of two of their designs in full view over his heart ... and people overwhelmingly adored it! Yes, there are conservative people, I agree, but Finland's placing showed that other people - and maybe even a fair few of those conservative people! - can appreciate a wild mix of Techno / Metal / K-Pop and Cha Cha Cha 🤩. I think past winners and other popular songs even HELP conservative people be less so. I mean, there was something for almost everyone in Finland's song. I have a broad music taste and I voted for Finland, Slovenia, Germany and Austria (mostly Finland, though). I really hope more countries will perform songs in their own language going forward, after Finland's success. Finland itself very nearly had an absolute banger as their entry in 2022 in the form of Bess and "Ram Pam Pam" - it was seriously good and could easily have been top 5. Give it a watch and decide for yourself if the national voters should have been braver than to send an English-singing band of many years standing - The Rasmus, who didn't score well at all - which is sadly exactly what happened to Germany this year. Who knows, Germany could have done better if Chris had 'been more Rammstein' and had belted out some German instead?

[@walkerdufault]

Here in Estonia, every time Cha Cha Cha plays, the entire pub bangs on the table and goes nuts. It doesn't matter what you are doing; if the song starts, everyone sings

[@iEatMinors]

I swear Estonian support is crazy lol. The pub thing, and 5MIINUSTxPuuluup saying thank you in dutch for Joost Klein (2024). I love it.

[@MikaelBCN]

It's weird when even if Cha Cha Cha had gotten 100% of the televote, he would have only get 9 points above Loreen

[@mentonerodominicano]

And that's only because of the Rest of the World vote that was introduced this year. Imagine not having those points and then losing with 100% of the televote. A riot.

[@petrograd4068]

Hmm. 11 points (594-583), but then Loreen would've gotten 9 less points too, for a total difference of 20 points. Part of the reason why is that Finland wasn't 2nd in the jury vote. If Sweden hadn't been 2nd in the televote and instead gotten the points Israel got, Finland would've won.

[@IceCreamSplat]

People go off about the juries but if Sweden had gotten the amount of televotes like in 2019 or 2021 she wouldn't have won. Question the people who called and voted on Loreen instead of only blaming the juries, the win wouldn't have happened if she didn't come 2nd in the televotes

[@LjuboCupic1912]

@@IceCreamSplat for the umpteenth time, the difference in points was nearly 140, that’s nothing to sneeze at. Besides that, it’s not just about Käärijä, it’s about the fact that the jury over-bloating Sweden the way they did meant that a lot of other participants got screwed over. You can’t honestly tell me that Loreen getting 340 points was worth Norway, Spain, France, or Portugal getting so little.

[@leonardomeloni69]

​@@LjuboCupic1912 Portugal was such a cool song

[@thepauloapo]

The elephant in the room being: loreen's song, as good as it may be, doesn't explain 340 points.

[@D0MiN0ChAn]

It was also so much more boring than her first winning song. Like, don't get me wrong, Euphoria was great back then but this year's song just felt like a watered down version of it; apart from it sounding very generic overall. Very disappointing.

[@Inuyasha619]

Also her performance live wasn't that good. It was made to look good for at home using cameras

[@LYRICS47991]

​@D0MiN0ChAn generic probably because plagiarized

[@Nadia1989]

In my opinion is bland and generic. By itself is not bad, but compared with the rest of the entries it doesn’t deserve the win.

[@gjbsarmeri3957]

Basic pop song

[@andyt8216]

Aside from the Finland v Sweden controversy, you’re right that Spain and France should have received much much higher points. The juries and their composition needs looking into. Edit - what a fantastic video. The “powers” behind the scenes at Eurovision need to watch this.

[@perkz3290]

If you think this is a "Fantastic video" I can imagine how easy politicians would be able to fool you into voting for a dictator lol

[@AndersJackson]

You might look at how the score for Spain and France was in the "public" votes. And yes, I also liked the France and German contributions, and but Spain was ok.

[@RigAJigglypuff]

They also do less than nothing to reduce block voting. Cyprus and Greece jouries giving 12 to each other is a meme at this point, and even in this controversy - sweden got 12 points from the Finnish Danish and Estonian jouries and 10 from the Norwegian, while Finland got 12 from the Swedish and Norwegian jury, 10 from Iceland and estonia, and 8 from Denmark. I don't know how you would prevet block voting, but that's not it

[@LjuboCupic1912]

@@RigAJigglypuff The idea of block voting is a bit ridiculous in the first place. A lot of the countries that supposedly block-vote actually just have a huge overlap in music industries due to linguistic similarities. Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Serbia for example all share the same language - if an artist is popular in one of these countries, they're gonna be popular in all the others. Expecting them not to vote for each other during an event like Eurovision is completely redundant - it's a multinational event, and people like things that are culturally similar to them. That's something the EBU is gonna have to make peace with.

[@Talvi_Sota]

I really appreciate you using Germany as an example. I really loved Lord of the Lost and Blood and glitter is a very unique Song with a deep meaning.

[@himfalathiel4012]

Germany was my favourite, they deserved more points! I'm happy they got at least 5 points from our televote. Though of course I was rooting for Käärijä since I'm Finnish 🇫🇮💚 That said, those who accuse Finns deliberately voting against Loreen: see how Germany is a heavy metal country like us, and they only gave Sweden 1 point in televote. Sweden got 0 from us, but people did vote for Sweden they were 13th in our televote, but that wasn't enough for points.

[@Talvi_Sota]

@@himfalathiel4012 to be honest I've never heard of Käärijä before but the second his Song started I fell in love. It was, in fact, very much crazy and party and it was amazing to say the least. He would have deserved the win. Ngl after the jury vote I would have understood deliberately voting against loreen (no hate on her, she wasn't bad, but also not....the best. And people call her superior in vocals and emotions....Well....there were others with damn great and unique vocals and very deep meanings) since ig does seem rigged. I've been a long term Lord of the Lost Fan, even saw them live once, which was heckin amazing. I really recommend their music and if you tell me what your taste in music is like and what really hooks you to a song, I could find some matching songs for you as a recommendation. I think they were 6th or so in your televote which makes Finland the country where we were the highest, so....thank you, I appreciate your taste in music. My favourites this year were Käärijä and Lord of the Lost of course, but also the Songs from Austria, Australia, moldova and Croatia.

[@eveliinajuselius8872]

Yes. I also voted for them. Käärijä was my fav of course but can't vote for own country. It's sad different genres don't get recognised enough in this competition. Also Australia should have done much better.

[@sairhug]

@@eveliinajuselius8872 I saw the breakdown of the 2nd Semi-final votes (i.e. the ones that weren't skewed by judges' votes) ... Australia came first! So people definitely liked them: Eurovision 2023 Semi-final 2 1. Australia - 149 points 2. Austria - 137 points 3. Poland - 124 points 4. Lithuania - 110 points 5. Slovenia - 103 points 6. Armenia - 99 points 7. Cyprus - 94 points 8. Belgium - 90 points 9. Albania - 83 points 10. Estonia - 74 points Didn’t qualify: 11. Iceland - 44 points 12. Georgia - 33 points 13. Greece - 14 points 14. Denmark - 6 points 15. Romania - 0 points 16. San Marino - 0 points

[@derorje2035]

@@himfalathiel4012 That was also the reason why many Germans were pissed about the decision to not invite Eskimo Callboy (today Electric Callboy) to German preliminaries. Their songs weren't "radio compatible".

[@ESC_fan]

Seeing Käärijä with his head in his hands after receiving on average more than 10 points from each of the 37 televoting countries is such a low point in ESC history. The jury system needs a reform

[@elli8099]

yupp

[@brutpenta]

him looking so sad when the hosts announced that sweden won genuinely broke my heart.

[@KulaGGin]

There's a "true democracy" system(implying that the current one isn't a true democracy, which is isn't), which I came up with, where people pick jurors similar to how people pick parliament members in the countries. Then, unlike in our current parliament system, if a person thinks a parliament member or a juror went rogue, they can revoke their vote from the parliament member/juror and overwrite parliament member/juror vote on any particular thing. I'll explain. Let's say there's Country 1. 1 million people voted and picked 5 jurors for Eurovision(anyone can vote, but a lot of people don't care about Eurovision, so we have 1 million voters here). Then those 5 jurors voted in Eurovision. Let's say they voted like they did in 2023 and gave unreasonable points to Sweden. Let's say I was one of that 1 million. And I think they went rogue. I take away my 1/1 millionth vote from them and re-distribute it as I want. Now I affected my countries' juror's part of the vote(only that 1 out of 1 million part, respectively, of course). I can also additionally vote on all the songs as all normal people. This way if jurors decide to go rogue and the public disagrees, they can completely overwrite their shitty voting decisions. And as I said, this works not only for Eurovision, but also works for law making. This system also showcases very well how we don't live in a real democracy at the moment, because we have the same problem with law making as with Eurovision: "the jurors"(the parliament members) have all the power and you have 0 voting power on the laws, when in reality people should have 100% voting power on the laws and "the jurors" should have 0 power if you disagree with them on a law: any person should be able to vote against any law in the country, and a re-vote should be done lone before 50% are against it. Every person should be able to vote on any law in a country, if they wish to do it by themselves, or pass their vote to any citizen in the country that they trust, and it should be as easy to revoke that vote. We can do it electronically nowadays through the Internet in seconds.

[@sande6]

That Landslide Jury win is the biggest reason people are so sour I think. Made it very boring televote sequence and still Käärijä almost pulled it off. He got 10.2 point average of maximum of 12 per country and still lost. Maybe one way to fix the jury would be that the winner of jury gets a fixed amount of points and 2nd gets a bit less etc.

[@sanhay4197]

I've been thinking what it would have been without Käärijä. Now people had the thrill because there was slight hope Käärijä might still get the televoting side and somehow win. So there was even some element of excitement. Without him it would have been over before half way through the jury points for everyone but Loreen. (Assuming none of the other artists were able to get the same hype around them as Käärijä.) Juries just seemed to overlook many good entries. I think Käärijä being 4th in jury points was much better than expected.

[@InternetNonsense]

Or make jury votes only amount to 30%

[@petrograd4068]

​@@sanhay4197 I think the media hype about Sweden and Finland affected both their jury scores. Otherwise I think they might both be 50-100 points lower.

[@munkayttaja6913]

​@@sanhay4197realistcally he SHOULD have won. Nobody was suprised that he was 4th by jury and swedistan 1st. But to get 85% of ALL the televotes 2ND HIGHEST in ESC HISTORY... it should've been enough. Like literally, even if he got 100% of all the televotes he would've still been a few points short. The jury was rigged and biased

[@marsukarhu9477]

To me the point isn't that Käärijä didn't win, but that the juries didn't give anyone else a fair chance. Double the points of Marco? Really?? Loren was twice as good as Marco? Or that her show was twice as good as Noa Kirel's show? Was she really 3 and a half times more original than Austria? Or 4 times better than Spain and Czechia? 6 and a half times better than Norway, France or Portugal? Yeah hell no!

[@Pleasegivemeschoki]

Exactly!

[@petrograd4068]

That's just an artifact of the points system. You wouldn't say Finland is 18 times as good as Australia, right? Because that's what the points from the public otherwise would indicate. Juries don't coordinate so they don't know what other juries are voting like that. They can't go "oh now we've given Iceland too much, gotta take some from them and give to Spain".

[@marsukarhu9477]

@@petrograd4068 That's what makes you think that there was some coordination going on between the juries or the juries and the EBU..

[@_dont_mind_me]

@@petrograd4068 exactly, the juries didn’t give Sweden such a lead on purpose, it just so happened her very jury friendly song and performance was the favourite of most countries and in the top ten of every country. It’s not like they sit down together each year and decide how to distribute the points fairly. This kind of lead is rare but absolutely can make sense

[@teamrainbow7674]

This argument just doesn’t make sense at all, they don’t make a collective decision to say that Sweden was, let’s say 2 times better than Italy, it’s just the way the individual jurors’ votes lined up. Like someone else pointed out you could make the exact same stupid argument about the televote results

[@Sahrevario]

I think Käärijä got the right amount of jury points BUT the jury was too biased toward Loreen. She didn't deserve as many points as she got. France's La Zarra for example should have gotten waay more jury points than she ended up getting.

[@marsukarhu9477]

I agree! The entries missing a lotta points: Norway, Serbia, Spain, Portugal, France, Czechia, Austria.

[@LJay-wk6pt]

I agree with the bias too! I think it was to be expected that Sweden would win the jury vote, and well, Sweden just knows how to appeal to the juries. I think it would have been okay if she'd won the jury votes with like MAX. 100 points in the lead. But the huge gap between Loreen and the 2nd place (idk, around 200 points or so?) tells it all. There is no reasonable explanation for such a huge difference.

[@object9339]

Exactly! Like, yes, Loreen has extremely Jury-safe song (and it's probably a good song, but I just don't like it the same I didn't like Euphoria and this year if I should choose something more classic/ballad - Estonia, Armenia even Moldova is right here), but the way they voted for her was so... Idk, fake and disrespectful? Like, yes, I don't like her as an artists any I feel nothing for her persona, but I still believe she deserves some respect. Let her win or lose without this shade. Just like sore Loreen's fans say - 2nd place is also good, but nobody will remember that she was the 2nd by televotes, only how Jury voted for her

[@marsukarhu9477]

@@LJay-wk6pt Yeah! And even 100 points is A LOT! In a basic aka. normal year the point difference between 1st and the 5th place can be as little as 50 points.

[@novastarburst3939]

Exactly. But it's no news, there's problems like that every year sadly, Eurovision is more like a political singing evening than anything. And despite that it's really fun and entertaining, and I grew up with it, it was the thing we waited every year and are still super into it. Also the result for the entry of France in 2022 was also unfair, for one time something was original and not in english or any "common" language... Still listening to it and the artists today.

[@AhavaMath]

I really thought Spain and France were going to be at the top this year by jury votes, and was shocked how far down they were.

[@tobiz1922]

9th for Spain is not "far down".

[@daytimegueststars]

@@tobiz1922 Is not far down, yes, a top 10 with the juries was good enough for me to avenge Remedios Amaya dead last place... The thing is, most people expected a Top 3-5 at best and Top 6-7 at worst. And I believe France was in a similar position. People were in their right to be appalled or sad about it, even more when Sweden was landsliding everyone and our countries were scratching points in 5 by 5.

[@ronancarr]

Totally agree, both were very well performed , had great staging and very well constructed songs. No reason for them not to get very high jury votes. Especially Spain, that song was very unique and deserved to be rewarded by the jury. I feel like that is the point of the jury, to make sure good quality songs get recognition.

[@elinat2414]

The problem is that Loreen came back and won with an almost identical song concept 11 years later. She was immensely rewarded by a jury that is supposed to look for creativity for doing exactly the same thing she did before. No hate to Sweden as a country, but I'm tired of Sweden's approach to Eurovision year after year. They mostly send formulaic, polished entries that get the job done but come off as a bit soulless.

[@Sundain]

The reason for that is that us Swedes really love generic pop songs, we are one of the biggest pop producers in the world after all.

[@Annuhtjee5]

​@Sundain I mean that's fair if we're talking music in general, but is it really right for a song like that to win eurovision? it's not exactly creative

[@Sundain]

@@Annuhtjee5 I meant that this type of music is popular in Sweden and we are good at it so it makes sense for it to represent us. I do however think it is unfair to only see eurovision as a song contest, it is also about the performance of the song. Loreen has a unique style to her performances and that is the reason I think that she is so popular and that is what makes her a deserved winner. I am ofc biased as a Swede and I would also prefer to have something else besides pop represent us once in a while.

[@Matty9]

Really? I feel like they were polar opposites. Euphoria talked about the unionisation between people “till the end of time” whilst the “tattoo”emphasises the dysphoria and damaged connection between a couple due to a unhealthy obsession that will continuously bare on their judgement such as a tattoo would

[@Mycenaea]

It isn't our "approach to Eurovision year after year"; it's the music the Swedish voters like that they vote for - voting based on some Eurovision tactic doesn't even cross their minds. The vast majority of the Swedes watching the Swedish pre-selection mostly listen to whatever music do well on the charts and on the radio. Our pre-selection isn't a show for indie music or for people that like more alternative or experimental music - and the people that like that kind of music knows this, so they don't watch our pre-selection(unless they like both commercial. You're basically saying that we should stop sending songs that the Swedish public wants to send and just have a pre-selected song by people in the music industry or by our Eurovision broadcaster SVT. Why does Sweden have to send more alternative acts anyway? If every other country send such interesting and unique acts, why can't Sweden send radio friendly pop songs year after year? Your quota of experimental songs should already have been fulfilled by all the other countries in the competition.

[@DominikGuzowski]

My 2 favourites were Finland and Sweden, so I'm not angry at Sweden's win, but what I am angry about is how the jury's made it impossible for Käärijä to win.

[@avatara82]

For me sweden wasn't even in top10. Cause the song was so forgettable.. my top10 1. Finland 2. France 3. Norway 4. Slovenia 5. Israel 6. Czechia 7. Cyprus 8. Austria 9. Croatia 10. Moldova 11Germany, 12Portugal, 13Estonia, 14UK, 15Sweden, 16Italy....

[@petrograd4068]

It was only impossible because Sweden's entry was a top televote contender too though.

[@LjuboCupic1912]

@@petrograd4068 there was still a difference of almost 140 points, though. The jury overbloating Sweden meant that a lot of good performances that should’ve gotten more jury points (like Norway, Spain or France for example) got snubbed.

[@IceCreamSplat]

But the juries no.1 and televotes no.2 only makes sense that it's the winning song? Stop ignoring the televoters

[@LjuboCupic1912]

@@IceCreamSplat again, still a difference of nearly 140 points. And it’s not just about Käärijä, the juries giving so many points to Loreen meant that other performers who should’ve gotten more points ended up getting very little.

[@mnjk1558]

Good video. Nothing against Loreen. The jury was very unprofessional this year. They totally ignored the criterias that they had to judge.

[@EmmyB-Yes]

So true! They didn’t reward creativity.. AT ALL! I wonder if they just thought about it from a commercial perspective. No wonder Sweden ran away with jury votes!

[@marsukarhu9477]

@@EmmyB-Yes Right! None of the really creative entries got the points ; Serbia, Spain, Austria etc...well, except for Finland.

[@Itchy681]

That’s just one of the criteria’s. If we’re being real if we consider all criteria to be equal Finland shouldn’t have got as many points as they did. Vocally he was one of the weakest acts of the night. 150 points was more than what they deserved by the criteria. The reason why Sweden always do well in the jury is because they submit songs that are targeted at the jury. Did she get way more that what she should have? Yes but the changes to the semi finals due to cheating last year meant the jury didn’t get to promote other jury favourite songs into qualification such as The Netherlands. There was nothing else that could compete with the jury at that level. It was the closest thing to hitting all of the criteria.

[@marsukarhu9477]

@@Itchy681 Why dd Norway do so bad then?

[@Itchy681]

@@marsukarhu9477 Well written? It’s ok I guess but not great Originality? Not really, some parts are unique for the contest but not in general Vocals? She was ok, the were parts where she was off and she might have done worse in the jury finals. Staging? Boring I never expected Norway to do well with the jury. They never do

[@hpacinstaller]

It should also be taken into consideration that the public has to spend their own money to vote. It doesn't feel very fair that the public uses money to vote for who they want to win and the Jury can just choose the winner anyway. I feel like that is also one reason why people are so pissed off. I also feel like the notion that the Jury is there to counter biases is ridiculous. The jury is just as likely to show bias towards neighbouring countries and political climate as the public is. Or should we pretend not to notice that Greece and Cyprus always (except this year which was the true shocker of the night lol) give each other the highest points, San Marino favors Italy, Armenia and Azerbaijan would never be caught dead giving each other points, most of the Nordic countries give Sweden high points (Would be nice if Sweden ever did the same...) and so on. At the very least the Jury should be held to a higher standard than it is right now. There should be complete transparency on how they vote and there needs to be much more diversity among the jury members. It would also be better if the votes were split more in favor of the public, say like 60/40 or 70/30. I personally wouldn't mind if Eurovision got rid of the juries altogether because I accept the fact that we as europeans have a 'trash' taste in music. This is a fact that should be celebrated rather than hidden away. Nothing wrong with wanting a 'joke entry' to win. People can be such snobs sometimes.

[@sk70091]

Yep. If the majority of the people want the 'trash' entry, then the 'trash' entry should win. That's democracy.

[@tokugawa949]

I agree with you just not on the public/jury ratio, I know juries still show bias but we should fist work on improving them see what happens beause I do believe they can play an important role balencing the televote that is very influenced by the running order. I mean Austria and Portugal are the best example but Spain being before Sweeden didn't help her either, same for Serbia and France thay were both in that "sloth" idk how to call it. So basically this is why I think we shouldn't get rid of the juries or diminish their importance too much because they could help those countries that may have very good songs but that will be defavored by the running order. But if after reforming them it still doen't work out like it should, then yeah giving them less importance is a good idea

[@lightwalker7123]

You do realise this year Finland got 12 points from both the Swedish jury and televotes, while Sweden got 12 points from Finland's jury and 0 points from the Finnish televotes...? Finland was the only country to not give Loreen any points from televoting. It's not a good look for the Finns. The Swedes were very well aware of Finland presented the biggest challenge to a win for them. Despite that they voted for Finland. Furthermore, the points distribution between the Nordic countries: Norway's jury gave 10 points to Sweden and 12 to Finland. Denmark's jury gave 8 points to Finland, 10 points to Norway and 12 to Sweden. Sweden's jury gave 8 points to Norway and 12 to Finland. The Swedish televote were 12 points to Finland and 10 points to Norway. (Btw last year the Swedish televotes gave 7 points to Finland.) You make it sound like Sweden never give more than 4 points to the Nordic countries and that's simply not true.

[@sk70091]

@@lightwalker7123 Was the Finnish public under some sort of obligation to vote for Sweden in your opinion? You make it sound like there was some sort of joint decision to not vote for Sweden, rather than individuals who rather voted for other acts. Loreen was 13th in Finland's televote, so it's not like she didn't get any votes from Finland, she just wasn't in the top 10.

[@hpacinstaller]

@@lightwalker7123 Well, I was talking about jury votes and not public votes. Now I am just a salty Finn who lowkey wants Sweden to lose on a principle (not really lol), but I did look up some info on the subject. In 2022 Sweden's jury gave Norway 3 points and gave no points to the other Nordic countries. In 2021 Sweden gave 2 points to Norway and 7 points to Iceland, leaving Finland with 0 points. In 2019 Iceland and Denmark got good points from Sweden and Norway got 4 points sp that's a good year for the other Nordics. In 2018 Finland got 3 points and Norway got 2 points, Denmark got 0 points. In 2017 Denmark got 5 points, Norway got nothing and well, 2016 doesn't count because no other Nordic country made it to the final. The only instance where Sweden has given more points than it has received was in 2021 when they gave 7 points to Iceland and Iceland didn't give them any points. This was what I meant with my joking remark about how it would be nice if Sweden's jury also took part in the Nordic Bias. In contrast, Finland gave Sweden 12 points in 2022, 5 points in 2021, 12 points in 2019, 8 points in 2018, 12 points in 2017 and 12 points in 2016. Norway gave Sweden 8 points in 2022, 10 points in 2021, 8 points in 2019, 10 points in 2018, 6 points in 2017 and 0 points in 2016. Iceland gave Sweden 12 points in 2022, 0 points in 2021, 12 points in 2019, 5 points in 2018, 8 points in 2017 and 6 points in 2016. Denmark gave Sweden 7 points in 2022, 2 points in 2021, 12 points in 2019, 4 points in 2018, 12 points in 2017 and 4 points in 2016. But hey, I can't be too upset about Loreen winning because this means we get Petra and Måns as hosts (hopefully) next year and that's always a win for us all!

[@FluffieXStarshine]

Hard Rock Hallelujah has to be one of the best winning songs hands down. If they had the heavy jury vote back then they wouldn't have even made the top list.

[@kingkramer]

I think you hit the nail on the head. The reason why me and my friends were upset with the results wasn't because Loreen's entry was bad, but because the juries consistently pushed less experimental and more easily digestible acts across the board. Loreen being the jury favorite is one thing, but when acts like Israel and Poland were similarly pushed above acts like Spain and Serbia is when I started having an issue. I felt like radio/hit list pop was being rewarded and compositional experimentation was being punished.

[@suvijii841]

My thoughts exactly. Thank goodness the half-naked beauty contestants are almost gone, but still every year there are couple of those: flirting to camera, swinging their hair and singing something cheeky, mediocre pop tune that you could swear you've heard a couple years ago. SO boring. *coff coff* *POLAND* *coff coff* Spain wasn't my cup of tea, but I can respect an original artist and song when I hear one. My vote went to Luke Black. It was such an odd song, but the more I heard it the more I liked it. if "Tattoo" starts to play on the radio I change the channel.

[@HanSerafia]

You are so right! If it was about singing alone, well yes, Loreen sings better than Käärijä. But it was NOT about those two alone! Spain was done huge misjustice.

[@idlydog1232]

I never really cared for Eurovision, but when my Finnish friend talked to me about Käärijä i thought he looked really iconic and interesting, and i decided to sit and join my mom with watching Eurovision this year. his performance was captivating, his song was catchy, his outfit was memorable, and the crowd clearly adored him. Now my mom and I both chant his song in the car, i've even started to learn the actual lyrics so i can sing the full song, despite being Danish. Käärijä may not have won the contest, but he won the hearts of the people, and i think that is worth more than some glass trophy!

[@kristinaugestad3789]

yes, I agree on how everyone is emphasising that being the public winner and the winner of peoples hearts is worth a lot, but it still not winning. The winner goes down in the history books, gets mentioned a lot more, and the winner is reaching out more to the general public who is not a dedicated eurovision fan. the average person does not know who verka is, even though she is a eurovision legend who came 2nd. Would have also been huge for finland to host again, for their 2nd time 💚 bringing Finnish culture out to the world and käärija bringing it home with a finnish song would have ment so much to them

[@adorabell4253]

@@kristinaugestad3789 Who was the winner the year Verka Serduchka participated? I had to look it up and I still have no idea who they are. But the moment you show the clip everyone goes: yes, that dude(ette).

[@sairhug]

@@adorabell4253 My thoughts exactly!!

[@perkz3290]

When I put his song on in a party they turned it off in 20 seconds and banned me from ever selecting the music again

[@sairhug]

@@perkz3290 Wow - sucks to be at that party, then. Was everyone sitting down and drinking tea?

[@jeevm491]

I'm pretty sure 13 out of 25 contestants went to comfort Käärijä after or during the finals, this includes Sweden's Loreen (during), Estonia Alika, Slovenia Joker out, Belgium gustaph, Germany, Australia, France (during), The Netherlands, Austria, Ukraine, Serbia, Norway, Lithuania and maybe Moldova aswell. In the end I wanted Käärijä to win because his song was more unique, entertaining and sung in Finnish. But I do agree that 2th place might have been the best thing to happen to Käärijä.

[@munkayttaja6913]

Way more than just 13 of them and none of them congratualted loreeshit

[@dehoopb8097]

@@munkayttaja6913 Salty much? Congratulations did happen also lol

[@Goddybag4Lee]

I think that a televote winning song that gets a certain amount of votes lets say 80% or more should always win. You can't tell people to vote and use money and then feel robbed like this. Its really bad for the competition.

[@bunnywar]

That's also unfair to other contestants. If you're known beforehand people will be biased and vote for you even if you're performing badly. Kpop fans are an example of how fans vote for their favs regardless of quality. The jury are there to look at the quality standards, you can argue that they're not doing a good job but they balance out the results. This way you can be creative without feeling defeated before the competition even started.

[@helenesvahngarreau8637]

Then you need to know the exact amount if votes. Kärilää did not recieve 80%. The system aggregates the Numbers. It is not like a normal election. The 12 points are not proportional to the real votes.

[@emiliskog]

or maybe democratise the votes properly and do like Sweden for Melodifestivalen and let people vote for free to a certain limit

[@vorong2ru]

@@bunnywar but the jury was still corrupt - check how Greek jury gave 12 points to Cyprus etc. A jury can't be built of 5 people that are easily manipulated. It could be a professional jury of 20+ people to make it fair and unbiased, they also shouldn't be the jury from the same country - jury must be mixed between countries to avoid neighboring voting.

[@munkayttaja6913]

​@@bunnywarbut that just has not happened with the televote. There's many times that a artist returns or that they're already a well known artist but they aren't the televote favorite, usually not even close. Käärijä was not even known in his own country until esc

[@bz7672]

And now we had 2024... divided even more

[@nozhena]

4:19 Honestly, one of the points to consider for the jury being "vocal capacity" they should've placed LOTL much higher. Chris Harms can go from Growl to scream to vocal fry to clean voice, with a considerable range, in an instant. The act was memorable, and the guys just delivered an explosion of energy. Their song might not have been the most original, fair enough, but compared to let's say England or Switzerland, they far outdid them. I'm not saying they should have won, but come on... They really didn't deserve last place.

[@minimochi5986]

Thank you for placing Germany higher than last place and talking about the singing/vocal abilities that should be a main point when giving points to a country.

[@blu7878]

I stand by the fact that Austria was robbed. Running first or second is deadly for being voted for. I saw so many people hype them up screaming POE POE POE and dancing, but they got forgotten by the time it came to vote. Eurovision did them so dirty 💔

[@Sahrevario]

No one that has performed second has ever won Eurovision... It is literally the worst spot to perform in.

[@wss29-4sf0]

they were a casualty of Sweden - Finland fight, amongst many other good entries who missed out on votes.

[@Sootielove]

Austria's performance was excellent. They definitely had one of the stand outs this year

[@kingkramer]

Our commentator also managed to speak utter nonsense over the first four songs in *both* of the recaps in the final, saying something that had already been said by the presenters or something that was blatantly obvious by looking at the screen for a second. They naturally stopped talking right around where Poland's recap started playing. No wonder Austria was forgotten

[@killitwithfire5377]

The audio also *sucked* for the first couple songs. I couldn‘t really hear anything. I didn‘t like the Austrian song but I also thought I might like it if I heard the studio version.

[@sandydarkfall]

As someone who lives in Sweden. I was so sad that we won. It did not feel right to me. The balance shifted to greatly during this competition :/

[@eleanornightwalker]

I've read so many comments from people who said they were rooting for Loreen and even voted for her, but still felt dissatisfied with how things ended.. I feel like that, more than anything, speaks volumes to how off this whole voting sequence was

[@sandydarkfall]

@@eleanornightwalker I was rooting for anyone but her, I have nothing against her as an artist but I felt that someone else needed to shine. The voting does not work in the long run as it is :/

[@wss29-4sf0]

@@sandydarkfall previous winners need to be excluded, it's not fair to new artists.

[@szandorthe13th]

@@wss29-4sf0basically, all countries should do it like the Netherlands, throwing new and aspiring artists onto the stage to millions of eyes. (though, this year we catapulted mia and dion into it too quickly)

[@passingextraterrestrial]

@@wss29-4sf0 that's what I like to hear! I want to see new talent not the same dude that I saw a few years ago.

[@rajarasaful]

The jury has been skewing results for ~5 years now. It's entirely expected if you consolidate so much power (relative to the contest) in the hands of a very small group of people. Said people are, for the most part, usually involved in the pop industry. This year was just the inevitable boiling point for this tilted system, which is a shame because someone like Käärijä comes along once every 10 years or so.

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

We have terrible party songs almost every other year

[@passingextraterrestrial]

@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 It wasn't terrible though, that's the thing. Even if this is not your style of music (which it isn't really mine either, Cha Cha Cha is the only one of Käärijä's songs I can even bear to listen to) it was NOT a terrible song. Creative staging, catchy even when it's not in the language most of the audience speaks, a charismatic artist, a silly and easily replicable dance... It was a brilliant entry. It's not all the time that many of the other contestants will go to see the runner up rather than congratulate the winner, and that's for a reason. Käärijä is an amazing man, a very friendly one, and one that dropped a song that went so hard it got the second highest proportion of televotes. You don't get people like that often.

[@unasperanza9803]

I know

[@sairhug]

@@passingextraterrestrial Well said! But I never thought Käärijä's style of music was mine, either, until I gave his other tracks a fair listen (prompted by seeing a small live gig in Tampere posted on KZbin and liking what I heard) - now I am a big fan! For example ... my first hearing of "Online" from his "Fantastista" album ... I really didn't like it ... well, the first bit, anyway. THEN it starts to pick up and its energy got to me; it's now one of my favourites 🙂. I grew up in New Zealand and I recognise Käärijä's "shouty" style as being similar to a Maori haka - impressive and kind of spine-tingling! His charisma and humour and being an all-round nice guy all go towards making both him and his music immensely likeable. Finland is right to be proud of him 💚.

[@sairhug]

The Tampere gig video I mentioned: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpLUZoKcntCgiNk

[@lilirmscastelino208]

We thought 2023 was bad....

[@MiaGrace2348]

I think what was worse was the fact that this was Loreen’s second win and her song was almost exactly the same. Here was Käärijä with a very entertaining and creative song that literally made the audience chant his name and the song’s name for three minutes, and he still lost to a song we’ve literally heard before.

[@blebleble9624]

The jury didnt want a crazy party song to win because its not as serious or professional, also, there is no way for them to vote objectively, just none, they are way older than the average viewer, too. They choose boring basic radio songs with good vocals that are in english and dont care about how fun and catchy it is. How enjoyable it is.

[@Sipu97]

Yep and they don't even care about the criteria based on which they are supposed to judge. They only concentrate on vocals and being radio friendly it seems. And of course favouring Sweden in every turn xD

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

Tattoo was the most fun song in the year, whatre you on?

[@passingextraterrestrial]

@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 Okay be so fr right now. Tattoo was not "fun" it was supposed to be moving, there's a difference. The "fun" entries are more likely to include Carpe Diem, Who The Hell Is Edgar, and Cha Cha Cha. Those are fun, Tattoo is not. Don't get me wrong, Loreen had a top 5 song but again, was not fun. That's not what fun means.

[@adamchaplin9702]

​@Thomas takes a toll for the dark aahaaa bitch where? Its a midder than mid generic pop ballad,

[@cherrycolouredshades]

that’s precisely why i think the jury can’t realistically be changed for the good, even though this sounds like the optimal thing to do in theory. those in charge of delegating a jury will prevent people with actual diverse taste to be a part of those juries or they will just be a very very minor part of the jury whose opinion would be cancelled out. unfortunately the whole world of juries and musical experts is just a circus of elitism and i’d rather have some people voting their neighbour country because they want to, rather than keep on having this false hope. jury can’t be reformed because there are no inner mechanisms in the industry to actually allow a relevant reform. but hey this tv show was never actually about or for the people anyway. it’s a business at the end of the day

[@AceOfMidnightSpades]

This was a great video about this year's Eurovision and why people were so upset. Not only the finals but also Poland's voting for their representative this year started already this shade towards jury very early since Jann wasn't chosen even tho he was people's favorite and finals just boosted that shade to full stage and in the past we have had other cases where jury hasn't been the most reliable. I wish this year is the start for fixing the flaw's that jury system has grown in these past years and they actually reward ALL the talent's regardles what language or music genre the song is. I'm happy our Käärijä got the most votes from people but super sad and dissappointed how Germany was last and got no attention from jury either even tho the vocals, music and show was well executed. Jury's duty was to balance the voting and give points to talented artists but now they just ignored many talented artist and that's why I'm not anymore in favor of jury system in the way it works now. It needs to be changed towards a better that doesn't favor only few music genres.

[@irismelis]

Yes the polish national final was some sort of a preview of things to come at ESC. yes very sad for germany, finland just took such a chunk out of the out of the box/metal televote potential that there was nothing left for LOTL

[@Mint-nt6ly]

Yeah, I still feel bad for Jann

[@multipogopuschel9131]

We had the same issues with the national finals in Germany in previous years. In 2013 we send a pop song the jury wanted to send instead of the song the people televoted for. Last year they also didn't even let one band compete in the national finals, because their song wasn't deemed "radio friendly". It's just a joke. However, it makes me sad that we took more of a risk this year and still didn't get rewarded.

[@famemosterrrrr]

Yeah I agree but let’s not start with how you vote. You don’t know how to vote either. You only vote for what is quirky and fun. Without thinking if it is good. If you think you gave 5 points to Spain and 100 points to Croatia. Speaks itself that maybe we shouldn’t vote ever again.

[@youeatthemtheydie]

Tbh same in Lithuania. Monika tied with Ruta Mur. Monika had most jury points and jury had the tie breaker. Monika Linkyte went to eurovision even though I spent 12€ on voting for Ruta. And when this simlar story repeated with Loreen and Kaarija and this time 20€ already spent, I felt so dumb. Needless to say, this year was the last I participate by voting. I legit felt scammed TWICE

[@stella_le]

i also think the jury's specific bias towards conventional pop music is an issue with a lot of fans - the biggest eurovision fans i know, the most loyal viewers and voters, watch it for the out-there, unique, and/or culturally rich songs and performances, and use it to discover new sounds and foreign artists. i think that this uniqueness and eccentricity has become somewhat synonymous with eurovision. for the jury to disproportionately elevate the very safe, somewhat generic 'tattoo' at the expense of unconventional acts like blanca paloma & lord of the lost, in a way that ends up placing it above someone like käärijä who took every risk imaginable while being so incredibly finnish and so incredibly EUROVISION, violates the spirit of the show for a lot of hardcore fans.

[@anonymouse8124]

You managed to put into words what I've been feeling about the result. It's just so un-Eurovision for the mass-produced plastic song to win rather than something crazy and party in a national language.

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

Oh dont mention Lotl, the public didnt like them either

[@m42785]

Yes yes, this so much. My thoughts exactly.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Yeah, totally agree. Most of these jury members come from pop background and most of them don't even have anything to do with making music! I looked randomly into 10 jury members and ALL of those were just marketing people from pop radio stations or record companies, radio DJ's and event managers. Those are NOT music professionals, they are marketing professionals. They know as much about music as a supermarket manager knows growing the tomatoes and oranges he sells in his store.

[@marsukarhu9477]

@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 LOTL actually got quite a lot of votes, but since it was 11th places and up = no points.

[@kevinletterer4171]

My biggest problem with Loreen getting so many jury points is that they are supposed to reward originality, but her somg Tattoo sounds exactly like Euphoria. People were calling ot Euphoria 2. If someone else sung Tattoo with the same staging, people would be upset they were copying Euphoria.

[@ВикторВълчев]

I'll just add to the discussion by saying that the televote isn't perfect. The public ignored so many REALLY good songs this year - Portugal, Austria, Germany and France immediately come to mind, with La Zarra's iconic middle finger, not to the juries, but to the televote. I was honestly shocked by these results when I heard them because while Portugal and Germany where underestimated from the beginning, France and Austria where VERY well received before the contest and the crowd went wild during their performance in the final. And despite all that, they didn't even make it to the top half in the final score. Which to me is insane. Now, it's worth saying that ALL of these acts where severely underrated by the juries, especially Germany, who had a different, well-composed song with a cool message and a very good performance. Only to be ranked last when Poland was ranked so much further above them with a PAINFULLY generic song and performance with nothing original to it. I think the best thing to do right now is to go follow our underrated artists and support them. As for the juries, I think they are just as biased as the televote, if not even more since they are much easier to bribe, so I think they are redundant at best and harmful at worst, as we saw this year. We say that they were included so countries couldn't vote for their allies, but the juries do it too, so what's the point?

[@lacunacoilguardian]

Germany big time lotl is an amazing metal act and blood and glitter was the best song for esc

[@PauloCesarLira5]

Yes, but the televote has no compromise on following criteria. Televote vote with their hearts, jury (should) vote with reason. Their job is hard, and should be taken seriously. When I try to look objectively at songs, the ranking gets different from my personal favorite ranking.

[@munkayttaja6913]

The thing is that there was a clear favorote so why shouldn't people vote for it? With the rigged jury the difference is that they are biased and have a criteria for which they HAVE to vote on. One of those criterias is to not be biased.. Also the public has to pay to vote. So it's just different.

[@NoClueHonestly]

Multiple things can be true at the same time: a. Loreen won fair and square under the current system, there's no rigging or conspiracy, the rules were the same for everyone, her win is undisputed AND b. the jury system needs to be revised, the jury size needs to be grown, the diversity of juries needs to be broadened (they were 55% pop musicians this year with another 10-20% being pop producers and pop radio DJs which yeah, yikes, no wonder radio pop tends to do so well), their judging criteria needs to be specified and they need to be able to justify the scores they give AND c. Loreen doesn't deserve to be harassed, hated or bullied, she's done nothing wrong, none of this is her fault AND d. the audience (aka the people the show is made for) can (and should) voice their discontent if they feel like the current system is failing them and making the show not enjoyable to watch, the voting system has always evolved with the times and always will, just because these are the rules now don't mean they HAVE TO be that way forever, the main goal of the show is to attract viewers and make them spend their money voting, if people feel disincentivized from doing so, the dumbest thing EBU could do is not listen Manifesting the day people realize that you can both have issues with the jury system and not be an asshole to contestants, delegations or other fans

[@aliciabergman1252]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@PeoplecallmeLucifer]

Wile I doubt there is no rigging, I do not blame the singer for it eurovision claims to be non political but .... they are! From the begging they are (you think "unite unite europe" won by coincidence around the time European economic community become EU?)

[@seriouspleasures]

If Käärijä and Loreen like and respect each other, why the fuck can't everyone else? ❤

[@PeoplecallmeLucifer]

@@seriouspleasures because expecting reason from humans is like expecting a catholic priest to behave around children

[@Tollkirschenkind]

Louder for the people in the back!

[@LuliBlu24]

For me Croatia's performance is a masterpiece in every way :)

[@marsukarhu9477]

the song is really growin on me :)

[@lillian9065]

I agree! I knew the jury would not like that one and I was sad when I saw they got second last in the jury vote, but the public helped bring them up! Finland was my favourite to win this year but Croatia was a close second for me!

[@FinestFantasyVI]

@@lillian9065 I feel like they knew going in that they would lose, so they just decided to have fun and put on a grand show while delivering a message

[@sairhug]

@@lillian9065 Did you see Käärijä enjoying himself dancing to Croatia? Pretty sure he liked it, too 🙂. I don't think it was televised but it was recorded by one of his team (or Yle?) and made its way onto the internet.

[@smultronpojke4010]

I think another thing worth bringing up in terms of the aftermath is how disgustingly chauvinistic Swedish media (and some average Swedes getting swept up in it) have been. In the weeks leading up to the contest, many of the Swedish Eurovision spaces I was involved in were frothing at the mouth over the hype around Käärijä. Cha Cha Cha is everything Sweden refuses to send - a national language, something beyond a cookie cutter pop-ballad, something that doesn't take itself so seriously and even a performer who doesn't have the body of a Greek god yet shows a lot of skin without a care about what anybody else thinks. And the fact that it was seen as a competitor to Sweden even though it was the opposite of what Sweden considers quality Eurovision was too much for many Swedes to handle, and Swedish media outlets were more than happy to fan those flames. Notably, a Swedish reporter tried to bait Loreen into badmouthing Käärijä (which she gracefully shut down), counter-conspiracies were spread about the Finnish televote being rigged against Loreen by the Finnish commentator mentioning "tactical voting" (conveniently omitting that this was a joke in reference to the recent Finnish general election, that Tattoo was literally this commentator's favorite entry and that the Swedish commentator as recently as last year basically told audiences to dismiss Australia's entrant Sheldon Riley because he performed in such close proximity to Cornelia Jakobs), which is incredibly pathetic behavior to express over twelve measly points in a competition we already won, a lot of personal attacks on Käärijä over his body and performance (some even going so far as to tie drag panic into this somehow, as if wearing any color but sad beige automatically makes one a drag performer), deliberately misinterpreting the message of Cha Cha Cha (which is a critique of Finnish alcohol culture, toxic masculinity and other pressures that make people feel as though they need to be under the influence to truly come out of their shells) to push unfunny drunkard stereotypes (you could basically just swap out Sweden for England and Finland for Ireland to understand why this is problematic), xenophobic jokes about the Finnish language, and worst of all, one major publication called Finland "the kingdom's former eastern half". Unironically flexing colonial history unprompted as if it's something to be proud of. Electric chair

[@r3dmarre262]

You had me look up what chauvinistic mean, never heard or read that word before. I'm a Swede and I don't quite follow the "Melodifestivalen" as it's called here in Sweden (the event that choose the song to send to ESC) and I remember when it was Loreen's turn to sing the media was starting to talk about her chances about winning ESC, way before she even had won "Melodifestivalen". To me that was a bit disturbing, I felt sorry for the other contestants not really having a chance to get to ESC after that. To be honest it has always bothered me that a song is sung in Swedish and is chosen, only to change into English once it's in ESC. It's not the same song for me. I'm glad though that more and more countries send songs in their native language.

[@baibabarkane3036]

Didnt know the ever ethical and tolerant nordic people had this much drama

[@Silveirias]

Finland was a conquered territory of Sweden for hundreds of years. Sweden has a long history of seeing Finns as stupid, naive drunks who speak a useless peasant language. They called us an inferior mongoloid race past the Second World War. We are still their useful buffer zone against Russia (in the past Finland was a source of soldiers for their army). Unfortunately, based on the Swedish media and some Loreen fans online, these attitudes have not changed. A lot of Finns understand Swedish (we have to learn it in school, but note that Swedish and Finnish are not related languages even remotely) and have seen a lot of disgusting comments online insulting both Käärijä and Finland as a whole, and our language.

[@marsukarhu9477]

This hateful attitude doesn't surprise me AT ALL. There has been an army of Swedish trolls trying to shut down all the conversations about this year's unfair results. Also in all Käärijä videos or ESC compilation videos there are Swedes shitting on everyone who say something good about him, or f.ex Noa KIrel.

[@sanhay4197]

This is what I find upsetting. I haven't seen any article etc in Finland attacking Loreen or Sweden (I don't say there can't be one, just I've read quite a few and haven't seen any). Sure there are Käärijä fans (both Finns and others) acting in poor way. As well there are Loreen fans doing the same. But to see and hear these things openly in Swedish media I think it's getting bit far. How can it be accetable to openly state such things about other nationality even in outlets such as magazines and radio shows.

[@jan-elojrgensen2197]

Remember: that the jury is reacting to a completely different show WHY??? For example: for all we know, Finland could have been out of pitch, during their complete jury show performance - or whatever. Just drop the jury show completely. bring the jury into the arena physically on final night. Let’s see them vote on the same night as we are voting. Why does it have to be so secret who they are and what they are voting individually?? Just let them sit with the contestants in the green room.

[@GrandLineReview]

Just starting to listen to 2024 entries and I’m still a bit bitter about Finland >_>

[@Ratlover4512]

I love Finland's "No Rules" Entry!

[@MH-cj9dz]

I will not be watching Eurovision next year, I was so utterly dissapointed at the Anticlimax that the final was, after spending money voting for my fave, who was a very unique entry, and who ought to have won

[@lisaanimi]

I'm watching it. I just learned that there's no point in (remember, we have to pay for) voting. So I won't do that

[@Trans_SovietBee]

That's why we should let only televote count because juries don't pay to vote and they don't even watch same performance as we do

[@EurovisionESC]

we say that same thing every year. You'll forget about it all by next year:))) happpes all the time

[@Merecir]

My bet is that Käärijä will be co-hosting next year.

[@monkey_8227]

About the past winners topic. Alexander Rybak and Lena being the most recent winners to participate again (idk about NFs) performed very different songs than their winner songs before, while Loreens song kinda was the same like the same genre, same kind of staging and so on. it didnt feel like a new song but a song that tried to be Euphoria 2.0. Its a general problem I have with Sweden because they are not writing songs for fun and because they like making songs but they are writing them to win the contest, to get the most votes exspecially from the jury. All of these typical swedish Euro-Pop and Power-Ballads for me doesnt feel special and unique anymore, because they do it every year, its like a good song you heared to much so you dont like it anymore.

[@HanSerafia]

That is the problem with Swedish ESC industry: it really is an industry! They know the formula and keep repeating it. "Oh, I had a wind machine last tie I won, make it five now." (Not talking about Loreen here, but Carola Häggkvist.) Whatever id in fashion, we will do. Risks we shall not take.

[@josecastillo9556]

I am from Ecuador, and from the other side of the world just wanted Finland to win this year

[@escziva69]

Why does it matter who wins? Having fun isn't more important? You're not true esc fan!

[@pullataikina8460]

@@escziva69 because we are humans and with some people it’s hard to only care about fun

[@escziva69]

@@pullataikina8460 than stop watching esc, or don't take it seriously if you are not a true fan!

[@pullataikina8460]

@@escziva69 OR you can just mind your own business

[@paulinamd5046]

From Chile too! I think if we in Latam got a event like ESC, we'll have a 3ww in hands 😂😂😂 For the results this year, it's not my first ESC, but I was really hoping for no so in-the-face winning from Sweden. I pay money to vote, so i really think the 50/50 has to change, or the point system from jury. I talked to my partner that sunday, that would be more interesting to watch representatives from each country telling the televoting and in the end, the sum of the jury. Like in this video were talking, the jury could be more fair if it's only a boost, not the main event almost. Fans payed for this, so why don't gives us more importance?

[@ms_bahiema]

The fact is, Loreen doesn't need this win. It's supposed to be the title for aspiring artists who deserve to be introduced to the whole world. But she was already a worldwide star. It's just unfair especially since we had so much young and unique and talented performers this year.

[@FeeESC]

Loreen wasn't my winner, Käärijä was. I was also disappointed. But it doesn't say anywhere that former winners aren't allowed to compete again. She is not a 'world wide star' either. She is popular in Sweden and the rest of Europe knows We Euphoria but nothing else really. Other than that. People above the age of 40 or even 35 (Loreen is now 40) are super underrepresented if you ask me. There is lots of ageism in the music industry. Especially when it comes to women. So I'm pleased with the fact a Moroccan woman in her late 30s managed to win it. I just never thought Tattoo was a winning song.

[@davidmorris8319]

Name one international hit song by Loreen other than Euphoria and Tattoo. The public failed her after Euphoria, so it was understandable that she would come back to try again.

[@chuiga2935]

My biggest pet peeve with this whole situation was 1) If the 25% is for the originality just HOW Loreens song could win if it sounds like so many songs? 2) France and Spain should have more jury points. What's the point even having a jury if they are biased? I totally believe that this was rigged as they showed so much Abba stuff in the beginning. Like, there are other winners too, why you only focus in one.

[@zhonixx]

To be completly honest, I loved Loreens song, but did I think it deserved to win? Absolutely not. I thought that Estonia, Norway, Austria and Cyprus did so much better, not excluding Finland, obviously. Especially Norway was such a banger song and instantly was stuck in my head, even more, than Finlands. And the fact that germany only got THREE poinzs from the jury.. what the hell was that? I'm not a Fan of metaly really not, but this song did not deserve to be so low. Lemme tell you, when tje whole croud is literally screaming the song/name of the one who DIDN'T win, while the winner was going onto the stage, then that should give you enough to think about who ACTUALLY deserved to win. It's incredible that only 5 (4 in thr two other countries) people from each country, can so easily let one country win, while the public vote did next to nothing to change that.

[@dikoproz]

It's safe to assume that the crowd in the arena was biased towards the song that has brought the party right at their doorstep and made them dance and have fun, but is that all it takes to win a Eurovision? I wouldn't want this to be the theme going forward.

[@tommilaitinen5555]

​@@dikoproz What exactly the ESC is about then? What kind of songs are worth the win?

[@dikoproz]

​@@tommilaitinen5555 Any songs that feel more like a show that stands out and draws your entire attention to the performance and the quality of the act. Songs that make you just dance are fine and fun but I can go to a party instead if that's what I was looking for from Eurovision.

[@tommilaitinen5555]

@@dikoproz Which songs draw out your attention this year? Because I do think people normally get interested in different types of things, and that is the beauty of music and arts in general. Rating them is a mission impossible, but in ESC kind of competition, the points are what counts, and the winner is the song that gets most points. You might not like the song, I might not like the song, but that's it. Most points: a win.

[@dikoproz]

@@tommilaitinen5555 I never disagreed with that, nor do I have any disagreement about the winning act this year. I was referring to what type of act is in my eyes a worthy Eurovision winner that's all.

[@turquoiseragdoll]

Ironically, that joke entry (3:30) was the highest place in Eurovision my country ever achieved. More on topic... I didn't particularly like Loreen's song, it was just really forgettable for me and the only thing I adored in it was Loreen's voice because let's face it - she has an absolutely beautiful and powerful voice. I was too disappointed with the results and I fully agree that the public should express their opinions in regards to voting, but the amount of hate and harassment Loreen faced is just disgusting. If you disagree with the results, express your feelings towards the juries (which are also not unbiased) or the organisers, but not a contestant, who has nothing to do with it. Regardless, I hope Käärijä is going to have an amazing musical career moving forward and I also wish we'll come to a compromise between the jury and public voting.

[@egg_2705]

I hadn't watched the video up to that point when I read your comment and I *knew* we were talking about Lithuania 😂

[@balticthegrapher]

Yeah I'm from the same country and I saw some people calling her a drug addict in some news websites

[@punaviinihaarukka]

We are the winners... of Eurovision! 🎶 Still playing in my head rent free 🔥

[@marsukarhu9477]

I haven't seen any hate towards Loren. I wonder where that hate manifests? Seen plenty on hate towards the EBU and the juries, but none towards Loren. More people have just said that "please don't hate her" and I've been wondering who are these mysterious haters that I just don't seem to find anywhere.

[@marcogeurts9881]

@@balticthegrapher The dutch media say that she won good but from Abba bit weird but quickly went to bashing mia,dion,duncan and the whole eurovision commission of AVROTROS

[@blu7878]

Do you know what would be really funny? If all the counties who have won just send the same artist again, next year in 2024. I bet eurovision would then change the rules and be like " nope no no you're not allowed to send them again" 😂😂😂 Imagine 2024 with Kalush, Maneskin, Duncan, Neta, Salvador, Jamala, Alexander, Elena etc

[@wss29-4sf0]

Conchita Wurst. Yes, exclude winners and those that entered but did not win wait 5 years.

[@Jillaroe]

Nothing would happen as it's not against the rules lol

[@HyperSpeakerman]

Lordi 😂

[@maijasnevanpera2958]

❤I agree. It is so sick and unfair to send same artist.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Yes, I've suggested this OR that all the countries send the most generic, safe, boring beige pop songs and see how much fun the contest will be...

[@louisesmith4251]

You said Loreen 'made the song'...But she did not even know what it was until a team of writers sent it to her. She had absolutely no input in the song , only the performance.

[@davidmorris8319]

I'm just heartbroken for Loreen. She must be the single most hated winner in recent memory. And she did nothing to deserve this; She wasn't the one voting for herself, she wasn't the first winner to return - she didn't even want to compete again, but was talked into it by people from the swedish pre-selection. She is just a hard-working and (in my opinion) great artist who, after the highly-acclaimed Euphoria, didn't really manage to keep that momentum going and build a long-lasting career outside of eurovision. Tattoo was her second chance to finally get the recognition that she, as an artist, deserves. I think it would have been better for her career if she hadn't won. That being said, I hope people calm down and come around to appreciate her for her talent and artistry.

[@mayapucuka5306]

@@purpinknbut how was she treated after her win? Everyone running to console Kaarija as if second place is end of the world. Look how runner ups from other years act and compare to him. He was very sore loser. All the chanting and booing during the voting and her performance was disgusting as well as the mean spirited comments afterwards. Sweden was my favourite so I was happy with this win but seeing how Loreen was treated made her win even sweeter. Kaarija fans acted terribly so I’m happy they didn’t get their way because they didn’t deserve it

[@iEatMinors]

Why would she join again after winning in 2012? You don’t spend thousands of dollars and hours writing a song, travelling and gettig in to Eurovision not expecting to win?

[@influencerzwerg]

I really do hope that the ebu changes the jury system. Idk how noone thought it to be a problem that only five people per country can decide where 50% of the country's votes go? Also I would really like to see how the jury justifies their decisions, i want a detailed break down, so that we at least know what they _thought_ when they gave their points

[@influencerzwerg]

Could be that there's already a way to see a breakdown of why the jury decided what they did, if so, please tell me

[@wss29-4sf0]

If they keep juries a justification of each rank would be needed but doubt we get it as they do not tell us how jurors voted, just jurors 1 to 5 not named.

[@influencerzwerg]

@@wss29-4sf0 i mean they can still give us the ratings, just not with names. As long as they can explain why they voted the way they did, I'm good

[@anna-kaisasuvanto]

Good point! I'd love to see the reasoning behind this decision. If I was part of the jury this year, I'd be ashamed of myself.

[@languist]

Norway is going to use a 60/40 experimental system with public vote and jury for MGP 2024, let's see if that will inspire the EBU themselves for May.

[@cmystery4180]

As much as I love Finland, I felt so bad for France, Germany and Spain, three countries I thought deserved so many more points. Like I can't believe Israel got the second most amount of jury votes, made no sense to me.

[@Czekoladowy_zajaczek]

I found another theory: Loreen was the only artist who had her microphone on. Other contestants, who used the same type of microphone as her, took it off. Some people think that Loreen kind of knew ahead to keep it while the others knew that they wouldn't need it anymore. Also not only viewers had mixed feeling about jury voting but some commentators too. I don't know about other countries but TVP commentators at some point started guessing if Sweden got that 12 point from jury or not 😅

[@DanBray1991]

While we thought Loreens acts was good, it just seemed extremely safe and basic. None of us thought she would do so well. We're in the UK and we had a massive Eurovision party. I remember as we were sat in my living room all in shock as her Jury Results came in. One of our guests highlighted this perfectly and asked 'what is going on?'. I think this was the sentiment from a lot of eurovision fans.

[@kid14346]

I do agree with your point about Kaarija being more popular due to losing. Like I am an american who has never watched Eurovision but due to the controversy I peaked in on this year and became a fan of Kaarija's music in general.

[@TheFloon]

Great video! Well-reasoned and well-researched. This has definitely been an...interesting time to be in the fandom but I'm curious to see what if anything ultimately comes of it all.

[@blobfish1112]

Most likely will. They already removed juries from semis but it didn't prevent the GF upset.

[@guillermo6030]

The best explanatory video of Eurovision that I have ever seen. 100% agree. Congratulations Miss. Nightwalker, from Spain.

[@urlocalchangeling8740]

hahah how are we feeling now

[@Bags5014]

Tbh the part that I disliked about this year was the fact that sweden’s victory was expected but not because the song was good. Like it wasn’t bad but it had nothing special, it was way to similar to euphoria and there was also the drama about plagiarism. She won because she won 10 years ago and bc ✨sweden✨ or whatever. I think that is why people were angry. I am a firm believer that if you already won you shouldn’t be allowed to participate again.

[@Matty9]

I mean, the staging and other characteristics were way better than other entries. It felt very real and more innovative (probably because of the box but to be fair, second place had one too) it is understandable because it was a really good song irrespective of the authenticity

[@Mayrishka]

Eurovision 2023 was the first year I've been watching live, and the finals disappointed me so much... I was rooting for Norway and Finland and it made me sad seeing them loose, but most of all the way Sweden won just didn't seem fair to me. As you said, there were so many cool contestants this year that were REALLY underrated (France, Germany, Moldova, Belgium etc.). The HUGE gap between the public vote and the jury vote made me so pissed, the amount of 12 (full) points that Sweden got was practically unbeatable. I feel like if the jury vote was more diverse then I would've liked it more, it just felt very one-sided for Sweden, and I honestly don't understand why. I personally didn't like Tattoo at all, imho it's a very boring pop song that sounds just like any other, and especially looking at how insanely high it ranked with the jury in comparison to more unique and interesting entries. It was a very bittersweet victory for Sweden.

[@lisaanimi]

I perfectly agree. I'm biased obviously but problem for me too isn't that Finland was 2nd and Norway 5th. It's the process how it happened. I would've been fine with Sweden being the teacher's pet and winning the jury but the absolute landslide they received 340 did not represent anyone's mentality. Those points should be awarded for something so stellar it makes you gasp with awe. I haven't seen a single person who was even impressed by Sweden's performance

[@PepeKa1]

@@lisaanimi I was very impressed by Sweden, best voice, best performance, raw emotions. For me Sweden was best overall and deserved to win. I liked Finland, but for the win? Good party song, performance was weird but okay, his voice was not so good. So no, I would put it in 3-5.

[@cubriffic172]

Agreed. I've watched it live since 2019 and this was a horribly disappointing year with the final votes. Both jury and televoting this year were incredibly boring to watch (one could argue 2022 also had a boring televote, but there was at least a unanimous agreement that Ukraine would win, the votes seemed more fairly distributed, and the jury actually did a good job at keeping it relatively fair). Juries either need to be expanded & made more diverse, or their weighting should be lower because this year was a disaster.

[@EurovisionESC]

@@PepeKa1 best voice? Alika? yes. she had the best voice !! or were you talking about male voice? Marco and Remo (Swiss) had the best male voice by far. by the way, Swiss only received 50 jury points? can they explain that?

[@doritos1784]

honestly can't even tell what she's saying, it just sounds like wailing to me... like i get she's talented at all but it was practically unlistenable for me and there was much better in the competition

[@loonatics1199]

watching this now after the 2024 contest, like we really had no idea how exponentially worse things were going to get this year

[@Dunika]

This reminds me of that year of the oscars when frozen was a contestant for best animation movie, and some jurors got caught saying that they didnt even watch the other contestants because frozen was the clear winner, or that frozen was so beautiful the other ones (including ghiblis "the tale of princess Kaguya") didnt compare, or saying they didnt get the other movies so they were voting for frozen...

[@jijitters]

Oh wow, I never heard about that. Judges not even watching the movies they're voting for... The audacity.

[@ehmzed]

Sanremo in Italy always manages to pick a good winner that makes everyone happy and even performs well in Eurovision, just saying 👀 The vote is 33% news media, 33% demoscopic jury (300 random but diverse people that represent the whole country's population and not only the people who watch and vote) and 34% televote. But then again, this would ruin Eurovision's iconic 1-8,10,12 point based system.

[@10freekie2]

2023 Divisive? 2024: Hold my Pinot Grigio!

[@tinuflint393]

I'm more mad watching this after Nemo won over Croatia yesterday.... And wtf happened to Joost?? What a sh*t show... 😢

[@OrjanGrahn]

2023: Divided ? 2024: I can top that. 😢 2025: CERN explodes ??

[@Moder_20]

Don't curse it

[@machonacho91]

I completely agree with what was said about Loreen's song. There was no originality in the song. The whole song just sounded generic; like it could have been an Adele song. Just a song for the radio. Käärijä 's song was so much more creative, even if he would have undoubtedly scored lower on the vocals side of things. Doesn't matter. The rest more than made up for it. The same goes for some of the other acts too. To me, Loreen is a winner of something like The Voice. Australia, Norway, Finland, Moldova, Austria and even Germany were way better suited for for the spirit of Eurovision. And it showed with the crowd engagement.

[@astronauticaI]

Thank you for this well-researched and informative video! I started watching ESC this year (as someone from Asia with no reason to do it so far), and what’s unfolded is… definitely something. Personally, I’ve been in the Käärijä camp. I appreciate that he sings in Finnish and that his song is so unusual - watching him perform always puts a goofy, “idk what’s happening but I like this” smile on my face. However, I ultimately understand why Loreen won. Her song is uplifting and empowering (if a tad generic), and I’d say (obviously with my limited knowledge on music) that she’s the more skilled singer. I feel bad for Loreen - imagine making history and walking onstage to receive your prize to chants of someone else’s name. We can protest for a change in the voting system without giving flack to the artist who only did what she was supposed to. I agree with you that, in the end, this is for the best. These past weeks I’ve been looking up the rest of Käärijä’s discography and finding new catchy tunes to put in my rotation. I think, for him, this is just the beginning. Edit: Real talk tho, I’m way more bothered by the fact that Lord of the Lost (Germany) got totally slept on! They did not deserve that last place!

[@REIZORSHARK]

yes! germany deserved better too

[@SteveTheVampire]

Hello, Asia, welcome to the show!

[@anoceanofgoodmusic90]

This was not a video, this was a masterpiece!

[@yutrezza_]

Another point I'd like to bring up in terms of bias is promotion of songs. When Loreen won the national finals, they began playing her song a lot on the radio here. Of course the radio should play songs that are popular, but this brings a lot of bias, because people will now be familiar with the song and will have more reasons to vote for her. And besides that, Finland, Norway and Austria were also going viral around that time, why not play those? Because of this, I also think promotion from labels is a bit of an issue. Loreen's label is Universal: obviously a label with a lot of influence and money. So of course they'll promote her song to the radio. There were a lot of other radio friendly songs, but not one of them got played: Estonia, Norway, UK or even Latvia had a type of song that would be well liked here in the Netherlands. But because they don't get a chance to get promoted, Tattoo walks away with a lot of hype.

[@pillowmanswe]

cant vote for your own country in eurovision... atleast not jury wise

[@xxPenjoxx]

Scottish person here, i love Eurovision with all my heart. The jury system of allocating points is ridiculous. Favouring music in English is completely against the point of Eurovision. Across the years, I've learned so much about other cultures' taste in music, and i love trying to sing them and learn new languages lyrics. So, to hear a basic English pop song is favoured when scoring, just boils my piss. This years Eurovision has definitely left a sour taste.

[@wellhello6618]

This is a great video and you summarized all the important angles and arguments extremely well. I have watched the Eurovision for many, many years myself and my friend and I were really invested in this year, as we just loved to see Finland win. Spent money to vote, like so many other viewers did. And despite Käärijä receiving this near unprecedented amount of televotes (because let's face it: Ukraine's win was a political statement more than anything and a one off as such), he STILL lost from a very biased jury. I think that there is a place for jury voting, but we cannot overlook the fact that the jury is not the solution for partisan voting: they were caught in voting agreements with friendly countries as recently as this year (Poland). The fact that incredible songs from France and Spain for instance were wildly overlooked, and all jury eyes were on Sweden is just unacceptable, when it overrules an 80-something % televote for Finland. Jury's power should be brought down to 30% at most. Eurovision viewers are no longer the ones from 20 years ago, solely voting for neighbouring countries due to geographic alliances. The world has globalized, the internet and European Union has allowed us all to feel more widely united and to vote for a song we really like. Finland has few neighbours and still the Eurovision public voted for Finland. Which shows my point. So the Jury needs to be made up of more varied 'specialists', representing different music genres and any strong ties to the music industry needs to be looked at very critically. But they cannot have 50% voting power anymore, in this day and age. Finland had maybe not the vocals from a Loreen, but it had artistic qualities of its own, it brought us joy and was just an epic, memorable act.

[@henriikkak2091]

I agree 100%

[@zephire2628]

Thank you for this work! It was amazing and so well thought out and produced! I am a huge fan of Loreen and I’m elated that she won, but I do admit the circumstances under which she won are quite bitter. And it saddens me she’s been getting so much hate. I feel for Käärijä fans bc Ik that if it were my favorite in that position, I’d be upset, too. I think a change to the jury system is necessary. I think there are a few things that can be done: 1. Jury Boosts - I think the idea as presented in this video is great! Either way of calculating the percentage is justifiable but I personally favor the percentage being calculated of total possible points. 2. Juries Justify their Scores - Alongside changes like adding more juries to the panel and diversification, I think juries should be required to write a short justification of their number one pick according to the current rubric outlined by the EBU. This short response would be published publicly after the show like how the juries scores are now. 3. Total Bias Control - This one is a bit difficult to explain and quite radical. A panel of experts from all over Europe and other parts of the world would assess the performances according to the rubric and give them a “grade” rather than a rank. The grades would then be converted to point values and given to countries. Individual nations would most likely no longer give out jury points but rather the jury would be a single entity as a whole.

[@nikolaa1625]

As my university teacher said: "You can cheat if you want to, I don't care, you'll have to learn it one way or another anyways, but at least have the decency and do it secretly."

[@lek1223]

Not only did Finland get robbed via the Jury, but lets take a moment to mention norway, Damn what a performance, a well deserved 3rd vote from the public, yet that jury vote... yikes

[@czarnawisnia_93]

EY! Lordi is not a joke entry, Hard Rock Hallelujah is a catchy note and Finland is well known for great metal bands ^^

[@saltybiscuit6872]

this video is spot on and i couldnt have said it any better. the problem is that the media was already conditioning many to believe that this year sweden was gonna win before the show even started. even my sister, who barely ever watches eurovision, knew about the sweden hype and her chances to win. it really made the show pointless to watch at that point and every little hope i had got crushed with the jury voting sequence. I've never turned off the screen this fast on any show ever and i really hope the EBU takes the criticism to heart and makes some changes

[@phiabee7064]

I feel like we have this same conversation about the jury every single year, and that alone should tell us, that we really need to change the system! But this year it was so obvious that the jury massively overscored sweden! I mean, it could have happened before, but to me it doesn't seem organic for a country to receive double the points of the second place alone....

[@pillowmanswe]

well to be fair always hated jury. Sweden has a international jury in selection... hence always kind of good placement also this has happened like 5 times before. not with Finland and sweden but with Ireland, norway, ukraine there is alot of instances where jury does something that makes public outraged but then again there was also times where Public outright did stupid shit. system dosnt NEED change but it sure as hell wouldnt hurt to have some done. its a 50/50 if it gets better or worse to be fair.

[@kairembeils2523]

Not us watching this now, noticing how its even worse now 😂😂😂

[@p3chv0gel22]

It's kinda funny, how the jury was meant to counter a regional bias but just ended up introducing a genre bias

[@nevermoreever2]

I'm swedish and I was kinda taken aback by how many jury votes Loreen got, its a bit too much. I loved Finland's song and Portugal's and thought it would be a tight race between Finland and Sweden, but for the jury to just throw 300 points at one country is INSANE! I am team "Tele-vote majority". I much preferred when we had more fun songs, they were more creative and yeah I don't remember Tattoo that great but I do remember Cha Cha Cha. Because one is obviously quite boring in comparison to the other. Germany's song last year was also great, and they did a cover of Cha Cha Cha and I love that too. Croatia's song was FANTASTIC! I still listen to it today. Sure the jury can help even out the playing field a little but giving SWEDEN 300 points... like no lol, we do not need that help. Edit: OMG a diverse jury that's made up of actual musicians and such, or EVEN normal people. That would be an improvement I'd like to see along with lessening their power or like making it impossible to give one person 300 points while everyone else gets less than 200pts, the boost idea would be nice, but using this system I do think it would be good to not have a 0%. Great video, you made great points and I wouldn't put it past ebu to have conspired last year and for the past several years.

[@DustD.Reaper]

2023 really seemed like the year where the juries messed up big time, not only with nobody having had any chances with jury besides Loreen but also with the entire controversy around Polands entry only getting through because Blanka had connections to the jury...Eurovision once was Europes yearly friendly music competition where everyone showed how talented they are, hell 2021 was more of a party than a competition and 2022 was about Europe holding together

[@Megurin-chan]

I'm just here to say that, welcome to Albania's world, where we always get axed and never judged fairly because who cares. Our song entry had a theme and a message but the jury barely threw us any crumbs like every year but we're used to it by now that its not even surprising

[@pogodziej]

21:28 Actually, producers being on Juries are the reason of most of these problematic biases. No more media professionals, only music professionals. If you haven't composed a song, written lyrics or performed a song live on stage, get the hell outta here.

[@motherofslavs8761]

In this years Croatia nationals the professionals held back Baby Lasagna. He, by pure chance, got trough to the actual competition and won by a landslide of televotes. There is just such a disconnect sometimes.

[@p3chv0gel22]

One Thing i find really crazy with the whole points system is the fact that 10 countries get points and everyone else gets nothing With this system, over half the entries don't actually matter at all. You could have a song, that gets 11th place in every country, get 0 points, and a song, that gets 10th place in one country and last place in every other country, gets at least 1 point In my opinion, it would be better to give points based on the percentage of votes overall. This would result in a more realistic distribution of points. Being mid tier in every country shouldn't be the same as being bad in every country

[@fat-hat]

Swedish person here. Loreen only won because they literally sent euphoria 2. It's basically the same song, with the same type of outdated instrumental and same song writer Thomas Gson. It played on everyone's nostalgia and memories of her prior win, and therefore made the jury favor her. She had competed in Melodifestivalen another time with the song Statements, 2017, after Euphoria but before Tattoo, where she didn't even reach the final because it was too different from Euphoria.

[@wss29-4sf0]

If juries are needed to prevent "joke" entries, let them decide who gets excluded to enter (they would need to justify their decision). Let the public decide the winner.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Yeah, why not juries in the semifinals and not in the finals?

[@malteaser]

The “joke” entries are literally the only reason i watch Eurovision, Graham Norton needs to fill his sarcasm quota 🤣

[@Shirafune161]

I do have a problem with Loreen participating, personally. She had her legendary win, her career seems to be going great, she's already something of a Eurovision icon etc. So why did she feel the need to compete against relative no-names? Especially since she brought nothing new to the table, just repackaged Euphoria. I know it's not the rule that the participants should all be no-names (affectionate), but to me and many others, one of the best parts of Eurovision is seeing relatively unknown artists getting the opportunity to show themselves to a bigger audience and get a career boost, and the European audience falling in love with obscure foreign artists (or entire new genres) that they wouldn't notice otherwise. So while I don't necessarily think returning winners (or even established artists) should be banned from participating, it should absolutely be at least frowned upon.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Well, I don't think that any winner wants to return after this year...

[@FinestFantasyVI]

I wholeheartedly agree. Why did she feel the need to come back if she won, had her spotlight and is STILL doing relatively well. Competing against "no names" I dont think she went in blind and stupid into this. Everyone and their grandmother knew that she was gonna win. SHE knew she was gonna win. Why go? What do you gain? Its plain douchy and greedy in my opinion

[@petrograd4068]

Eurovision Song Contest is not a talent show. You're allowed to compete if you want to compete. Competing does risk your reputation a bit in that you face a very big risk of losing if you compete again. (The vast majority of returning artists have lost after all.)

[@AnoAssassin]

3:36 Oi, Lordi's song slaps to this day. "All we need is lightning" part alone is enough to warrant a legitimate non-joke win

[@Hendricus56]

I have to disagree with you showing Lordi among the joke entries in the early 2000s. I saw them live as a supporting act in late April and while I was in the back of the arena, when I'm watching their show from 2006 I fee what I basically saw on stage. It might look like a joke or to grab the attention, but that's how the band is. They have strange costumes, Mr. Lordi is using an axe to hold his microphone and the rest is also wearing strange outfits. For me it's more of a case of the public showing that many people appreciate good rock with a good amount of showmanship

[@kthxbi]

I didn't love Loreen's entry, but it felt ridiculous how the jury vote just wiped out the peoples vote completely, and what with the ABBA anniversary aspect the whole thing felt cooked, like Loreen could have literally stood there silent for 3 minutes and she still would have taken the Jury vote because they wanted her to win. its just too convenient for Sweden

[@Bundeskaiser]

Don't forget the Il Volo scandal. That was also a landslide televote win which did not result in an overall victory. Even as a German I would disagree that Croatia getting more jury votes than Germany is "insanity", especially on this low level. If at all, then it is insanity that Serbia got so few (same problem last year, but on a higher level). While Croatia looks like a joke entry at first, there is some actual substance behind it. Unlike some others, it at least HAS a message and the composition is actually quite clever, so I would say it deserved a lot more than it actually got. But I'm with you when you want more diversity in the jury. I don't even think that different music styles should be represented, because then you need to represent all of them, otherwise you might get a bias towards certain music styles. But I think what we need are truly unbiased music professionals, like composers, university teachers and something like that. And in my opinion it doesn't speak against juries when they prefer ballads because based on the criteria where vocal abilities matter (and they should matter!), this shouldn't surprise anyone as in general ballads require stronger vocal abilities than dance tracks. Compare Andrew's and Monika's vocal performance to someone like Käärijä. That he could make up for it based on originality of the song is a different thing, but you should get the point. I like your suggested boosting system. This keeps the juries intact but also makes it less likely that a landslide televote winner can still lose because of a jury vote. But I also think that odds should be forbidden (or at least not published), because this might have an impact on how people vote. I think it's quite suspicious that Sweden got 0 televote points from Finland. And, I think we should go back to the system that the entries get points based on average rank. The current system leads to unfair results because an entry can be ranked last in 24 countries, but being 10th in one, receiving 1 point this way, while another one could be 11th-13th in every country and so getting 0 points and a lower rank, despite being WAY more popular on average.

[@irismelis]

Croatia got just as robbed as Germany by the juries, it was one of the most original entries, so those juries did not do their job and reward that. I personally do not need a jury that disregards the to me very important criteria of originality. Next year we might get a lot more swedish written radio songs instead as apparently more creative and daring songs/performances have not been appreciated enough this year. Not good for the contest.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Yeah, there too Sweden was overvalued... It's always Sweden!

[@annapear3914]

i don't vote but France it's stunning and amazing, the song just "oh my oh my god~", 54 points just not for La Zarra, she's been robbed

[@ehmzed]

15:03 I'm some people 🙋‍♂️ I think that rather than rigged, it was just a very well calculated and executed plan by the Swedish broadcaster and delegation. They've always wanted to win pretty badly, this year especially to host on ABBA's anniversary. They did their best by sending the legendary Loreen with a good song and staging, and they succeeded. Keep in mind that SVT is in charge of deciding which songs and what artists to have in Melodifestivalen each year. Loreen also said she didn't even think of coming back, until they convinced her with this song. Which is totally fair, some countries like Sweden take the contest so seriously, while others like Italy always send solid entries despite not even thinking about Eurovision in the selection process. It's fine, Sweden is simply unlikeable in the contest due to their over-manufacturing and genericness, and bias from the juries each year. But good for them, they play the game and they're really good at it. Sweden has a huge music industry from Spotify to being the backbone of the international success of Kpop and many American pop songs. They know how to make music products. On the other hand, the many mentions of ABBA during the final were indeed very strange. It seemed like they were trying to incentivize people to vote for Sweden to host next year for their anniversary. Certainly having a Swede as the Executive Supervisor of the contest doesn't help discredit the narrative that Sweden has a huge influence on Eurovision. Even the new vote announcement system was taken from Melodifestivalen. But then again, they're the most experienced and they share their knowledge which is normal, it just comes off as cocky and unlikeable when they then win. All in all I'm sure Sweden will put up a fantastic show next year, as 2016 was probably the best Eurovision I've watched. So we can at least be happy about that. Hopefully juries will get fixed and have more professional people with diverse tastes in the panel.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the game was rigged.

[@vawagner7327]

Fully agree upon that!!

[@Renaknight]

i think the main issue is that loreen is already successful from winning and it kinda takes the oppurtunity away from other genuine acts like i personally think France got absolutely robbed

[@ehmzed]

@@Renaknight There have been previous winners who participated again and didn't do well, but sure, that's certainly a big advantage to have. The song still needs to be good in order to receive enough points from juries and the public to win! The public preferred Käärijä over the already familiar Loreen. If anything, we could argue that the juries should've prioritised newcomers contestants who'd participated again. But I think in a song contest this shouldn't matter and the best song should win regardless of who performs it.

[@intensemint7800]

​​@@Renaknight exactly. Sending ESC royalty like Loreen was like sending Usain Bolt to regional championship games and then victimizing yourself when others call you out on it. It's following the letter of the law but not the spirit. Just bc it's not forbidden doesn't make it fair to other contestants. All winners are not the same, all winning songs are not the same. Jus' sayin'. The jury votes very heavily schewed to Loreen. Imo she wasn't THAT much better than other impressive vocalists, Blanca, La Zarra, Mimicat, Alessandra or Marco that she should vacuum *so much* of the jury votes. But it's too late now, it is what it is. I only hope ESC has the balls to change their course in the future. They should forbid returning winners, correct the jury vote % way down, increase the number of jury members, choose actual musicians as jurors in a transparent way, and include many more music genres' jurors. Or, if they're only looking for max radio play, just come out and SAY it, so countries don't waste their time searching for unique artists and songs. Edit: added a missing word.

[@stellakeil96]

I also thought about how crazy the televote went this year. There were several countrys I expected to go very well in the televote, including Austria and Czechia, but surprisingly they didnt. One explanation I found was that this was actually a "united by common enemy" situation. Maybe if Loreen hadn't have entered, or if her act before and during the competition hadn't been so frighteningly favored and pushed by the judges, the organizers and her pre-existing notoriety, more fans would have decided to choose other countries. Instead, they voted for the publics favorite Käärija, possibly to ensure Loreen didn't win. Every year it is a war between the jury and the public and this year it has been clearer than ever before. Lets just hope the public will be victorious next year.

[@henriikkak2091]

🎯

[@PowerSpirit50]

As a Swedish person I'm sad that we didn't win with a creative song. I had decided not to cheer for my own country because I was so disappointed in the songs we were sending.

[@SilverHornz]

I know that the 2nd place might've been better for Käärijä in the long run like you explained, and that he's already doing great things and is very very loved.. But damn if anyone deserved a trophy, it was him

[@wss29-4sf0]

Well done, great analysis. Juries failed in their job, they were undue influenced by Sweden, legend status of Loreen, fan clubs, betting odds, even if it was not deliberately rigged - and that is why we have the WRONG winner. Juries did not follow criteria how to judge and pretty sure did not give results independent from other jurors of their country.

[@perkz3290]

If the jury went for more quality Finland would not even get 20 points, he can barely sing. Gtfo with this dumb argument.

[@manofmagic1803]

Käärijä had every right to be disappointed he didn't loose, however calling him a soreloser is wrong. He is far from it. He didn't win, he was disappointed. Then he admitted he was and took a vacation.

[@samstarba4569]

He called himself a sore loser, so it might be caught from that. I think it's mature of him to recognize that he's a competitive person and does not want to fake happiness when he's feeling disappointed.

[@marsukarhu9477]

Yeah, he said that losing hurts, but that is actually a very good loser, not a bad one.

[@k.l.7788]

He really is our winner.🇫🇮💚

[@dodziarson]

I couldn't spend better precious 30 minutes of my life today, thank U, great video! :)

[@Antonia-sl3gi]

idk if anyone has talked about this but i think that in the last couple of years, there have been some trends amongst the winners/ televote winners. most if not all winning songs of the 2010s were pop ballads sung in englisch, but the past two winners italy and ukraine have very clearly not fitted into this formula. they are in the native language of the artist and mix cultural elements with modern sounds and alternative genres. the same goes for cha cha cha. so now you can see how the public, who has especially recently been adoring these kind of songs and not being really interested in the standart pop ballad, is standing in stark contrast with the jury who gravitate towards basic pop songs sung in englisch and not recognising other genres. loreen perfectly represents these jury biases and her winning over karijaa made alot of people mad because it was an extreme example of the difference in taste between the jury and public.

[@xNamine89x]

We should just give them 25% instead of 50% and more transparency. What I don't get is, why are only 5 Jury Member per Country? And why do they have so much power? In Germany I got the feeling the Jury just votes if the song is a possible radio song.

[@unitlonda4925]

As a German, I can confirm that to be absolutely true. Last year they rejected Electric Callboy from representing us for the ESC even though they were the public favorite, because they "weren't suitable for the radio"

[@wss29-4sf0]

All German jurors placed Tattoo first. They should be dismissed, they are either corrupt or incompetent.

[@xNamine89x]

@@wss29-4sf0 I saw a list of all jury members of each country in this video in the first time. I only know Katja Ebstein, after googleing her real name. The rest is completely unknown. So I would say totally incompetent.

[@marsukarhu9477]

In some countries there are only 4 people in the jury. And I randomly looked into 10 jury members and they were basically radio DJ's, marketing people from radio stations and event managers, so is it a wonder that they vote for basic radio songs... Really would love to see actual trained musicians there.