Even a Perfect Meritocracy Would Be Bad: Michael Sandel Interview

[@sarfaraz.hosseini]

I encourage everyone to watch Michael Sandel's Harvard University lecture series on *_Justice._*

[@Tavat]

Better yet, read the book!

[@matthewp2522]

I Took his course on EdX and it was AWESOME. I thoroughly enjoyed learning from Professor Sandel, and it made me a much better person in general.

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

I encourage everyone to ask Pakman why he so strongly supported an extreme-right-wing christian-fundamentalist coup in Bolivia, and why he "both sides" Israel and Palestine.

[@kalmansovari6878]

@@Tavat what is the common good?

[@Tavat]

Dude, what a great guest. Legend. Your podcast has got a level of intellectual engagement that is well beyond almost all other politics podcasts out there.

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

_intellectual engagement_ Pakman on Israel and Palestine: "Both sides." Maybe ask him why he strongly supported the extreme-right-wing christian fundamentalist coup in Bolivia.

[@fullmatthew]

@@aylbdrmadison1051 oh please...that's nonsense and an oversimplification, and you know it.

[@daniellarusso8012]

@@aylbdrmadison1051 Why are you trying so hard to discredit David? Are you a disgruntled Trumpy? :)

[@The_Accuser]

I always felt this. But this guy put it into language: Meritocracy is just a nice way to mask ableism and discrimimation in general.

[@RobVollat]

I wanted to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you, Michael, and tell you all how accidentally stumbling upon the political and economic presentations of both Michael Sandel and Dr. Webster Tarpley saved me from being caught up in the roots of Trump movement, long before Trump was ever a political entity; When it went under the guise of “friendly libertarianism” via the leadership of Ron Paul and his entourage of lawyers & media outlets. Michael Sandel and Dr. Webster Tarpley’s economic and political views freed me from my egos self-indoctrinated views that “made me feel smart,” yet deep down in my heart AND intellectually I could never accept. Being honest with myself I realized that Ron Paul and the far-right libertarian movement made any damn sense. I was just smoking way too much good weed to ever realize it (lol.. sad but true.) Their ideas didn’t improve the lives of anyone - except the elite that they (we.. at the time!) claimed to be against. This was the era in recent history (2008-2010) when Alex Jones hi-jacked and transformed the Ron Paul movement, while Republican power hungry elected officials along with the help of foreign media mogul Rupert Murdochs Fox News used this new electorate to create the Tea Party, thus the basis for the Freedom Caucus was born - which in hand was the beginning stages of the political movement that Trump adopted when he came onto the scene. I cannot believe I was caught up in what became the Trump movement and Austerity inc.! (My name for the modern, post-Boehner, Republican Congress.) This was just a brief adventure in my political background - but I Michael a HUGE thank you 🙏. If you read this, Sir, Thank you so very much. Your work is important - never stop doing what you’re doing.

[@shengloongtan229]

As a disabled person, if the world is a perfect meritocracy, I'd be sleeping on the street.

[@Al_Ellisande]

Same.

[@shengloongtan229]

@@Al_Ellisande TOGETHER

[@Al_Ellisande]

@@shengloongtan229 With a barrel of fire.

[@shengloongtan229]

@@Al_Ellisande I'm drunk I struggle I am depressed I want to die but I need to live

[@Al_Ellisande]

@@shengloongtan229 Find something to live for. I struggled for a while with getting on the career ladder etc but found sport. There's a massive community around that. That would be my advice to anyone. Sport.

[@marcevan1141]

Extremely interesting conversation. This man made a lot of interesting, incisive points and Mr. Pakman did an excellent job conducting the interview.

[@robertzinki7422]

Why Mr. Pakman is a well balanced progressive but a Democrat at large.

[@pjfx9436]

@@robertzinki7422 He's an uninteresting robot who doesn't say the least controversial thing for fear of upsetting the KZbin algorithm

[@junemac7515]

@@pjfx9436 gotta disagree on that and how is not being controversial a bad thing?

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

@@junemac7515 : You may want to ask Pakman why he supported the extreme right-wing coup in Bolivia? Or ask him why he uses the tr*mp style "both-sides" rhetoric about Palestine and Israel?

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

@Marc Evan : How can we trust anyone who centrist *inside* America, but extreme-right-wing *outside* of America?

[@1927su]

I’m a 24/7 caregiver in a family of doctorates . I’m fortunate they value my contribution to society , and I value theirs. Being a working class person shouldn’t be devalued by society at all!

[@1927su]

@@sunritroykarmakar4406 I’m a cna and provide 24/7 total care for an elderly patient(s) in my home. Everyone else in the fam is highly educated, my path was was different. I love what I do and I’m good at it . I’m content but Sadly many that have similar jobs like mine ,are not valued by society, in fact some have mentioned that I should sometimes work for free , because “I’m nice”.. (I know guys that love cars, but they don’t haul gasoline for free lol)

[@GhostOnTheHalfShell]

Interestingly Germans don’t have a crazy high level of collegiate graduates, but they have much higher vocational training.

[@Sage2000]

I would love to hear more about it

[@pookz3067]

Do you know if this is largely a result of their tiered secondary school system? They have Realschule, Hauptschule, and Gymnasium. Edit: removed some of my own pondering because I misunderstand the German system a bit myself. Off to more research!

[@channingdeadnight]

They also have a hard limit on how much a CEO of a company can make more than the lowest paid employee in the company. If the CEO wants a raise the lowest paid employees also get a raise.

[@jebkfan9146]

I think giving people choices is great. However we must make sure that all types of education give the skills a citizen of a Democracy requires, like rational thinking, knowledge of history and so on. I'm not saying that it's not the case in Germany... but I think that the anti-elites sentiment in the US could lead to that result in America.

[@henrysulser8205]

Excellent. Thanks David, for giving Michael Sandel your platform to be heard.

[@joshuagharis9017]

Thanks Dave for having Michael on. Such respect for you both

[@ohms497]

Adult learning on the David Pakman show. Bravo!

[@hatonafox5170]

This interview was absolutely fantastic. I really want to read his book. What a great choice to have Professor Sandel on to talk about his book at the topic of Meritocracy.

[@colevano]

This was so fascinating! Definitely need to have Professor Sandel on again.

[@Occam31]

I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to attend law school and earn a JD, however, I would not have been able to do so if not for the wealth and privileges I inherited. There are plenty of people smarter than me who didn’t have the opportunities I had through no fault of their own. Meritocracy is a lie.

[@buckbaumann773]

Technical college is incredibly well funded. I know many people who have gone or are going to Technical College and have minimal debt.

[@1927su]

What’s that old saying? The ones with the gold make the rules. (And those rules only benefit “them the people” not “ we the people”. )

[@1927su]

The educated look down their nose at the Plumber , UNTIL they need one.. and then they bitch about the price…… Not everyone is supposed to be a rocket scientist!! So because I’m not one, I’m not valued?? Something to think about . Time to start valuing ALL WORKING contributors & reflecting it in living wages..

[@1927su]

@@sunritroykarmakar4406 idk,but I do remember back in 1988 I had a minimum wage job working at a convenience store . I could still afford a shit hole basement apartment & was able to buy some groceries. I worked full time & was NOT living large or even decently, but I WAS holding my own without any aid . Nobody can say that now…

[@credman]

@@sunritroykarmakar4406 McDonald's workers make $22/hr in Denmark and Australia and the sky isn't falling there.

[@credman]

​@@sunritroykarmakar4406 Your uneducated feelings about what jobs "should" make mean nothing.

[@credman]

@@sunritroykarmakar4406 I'm a programmer. Stay happy being confidently stupid, you fit right in with the rest of the right.

[@1927su]

@@sunritroykarmakar4406 Hi, hey I’m big on old sayings.. what can I say? I like this one ; ~ Always be nice to people on your way up, coz you may meet them again on your way down!.. Most any of us could be catapulted into working for next to nothing at anytime, I doubt you’d want people looking down their nose at you. I don’t think im any better or any worse than anyone else, educated or not. We all have value & we should value everyone’s contributions.

[@1927su]

Everyone should watch George Carlin’s “ the owners of the Country” , he sure saw this coming!

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

Everyone should ask Pakman why he "both sides" Israel and Palestine, and why he aggressively supported the 2019 extreme-right-wing christian-fundamentalist coup in Bolivia.

[@mistahcoughdrop]

Excellent interview. Thank you!

[@kalmansovari6878]

A Michael Sandel vs Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro debate would be interesting.

[@paulpaul8221]

Thank you for this great conversation with Tywin Lannister

[@MrGoodKat96]

I would encourage everyone here to read 'The Tyranny of Merit'. It truly is and excellent book, especially for the credentialed that are almost certainly overrepresented in this audience.

[@StretchPig]

Love me some Sandel

[@tarajoyce3598]

As more people get higher education the employers require even higher education for base entry. Keeping good jobs for those who can afford that. A BA today is almost equivalent to high school diploma in the 80's

[@sweetpeaxh]

Almost no it is

[@josephvandurme6649]

Every place I worked had a 20% work force that did 80% of the work and it also had a crew that sat with the boss and made sure those that deserved merit never got it they always had a smile that said I’m above you i don’t need to work I have seen it enough to believe that’s the way of things I found no dignity in working

[@tima4167]

Thank you for inviting experts to speak on these issues

[@gregorywalker4997]

very impressive! halfway thru i ordered the book, then finished the interview. as a college grad from the early 70's, i finished my working career as a construction laborer, making little money, but mostly enjoying the work--just wishing the wages would pay the bills.

[@hyamsinvestments784]

Gosh, being a Professor of Political Philosophy these days must be an extremely unusual and difficult job. How does an educated person explain the current political climate in the US?

[@janeayre96]

Ask Noam Chomsky. No ones listening. We’ve defunded education to the point where the uneducated are in charge.

[@kx7500]

Late stage capitalism

[@kennethc2466]

Primate tribalism explains it quite well, actually.

[@credman]

@@janeayre96 Which amounts to the rich/powerful are in charge.

[@markzuckergecko621]

"shits fucked up bros, I'll see you at the party Friday."

[@poolerboy]

I highly recommend the conversation between Michael Sandel and the guy from the CosmicSkeptic KZbin channel.

[@Tacklepig]

A perfect meritocracy would only be a good thing if you have something like an UBI, to ensure that people who can't work (like people with disabilities) don't suffer under it. If everyone's basic needs are met, you could have a meritocracy upwards of that without it affecting people too negatively.

[@aandyherr817]

Then you’d have to ensure anyone caught bribing or trying to cut the UBI for the purpose of harming others is investigated, prosecuted and shot... we need to treat the bad actors like spies, against the wall and shot. There is no more room for corruption. Heavy hand approach to corrupt politicians!

[@rajashashankgutta4334]

UBI, just like college grants, will lead to increased prices for basic services.

[@halphantom2274]

Some of our "best" think though, that space tourism is the next big step in societal evolution. *facepalming hard* There would still idiotic decisions be made. Greed can also be overwhelming for smart people. Look at the 2008 financial crisis made by banksters with degrees in economy.

[@atomiccritter6492]

@@rajashashankgutta4334 how so?

[@atomiccritter6492]

youre not undrstanding that the U in UBI stands for universal....its a payment to EVERY adult irrespective of employment

[@RoadToSalvationX]

Great guest. I love Michael's lecture series and book "Justice". One of my favorites!

[@shamskitz]

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. --Ecclesiastes 9:11

[@Gandalf1232]

By far one of the most interesting interviews I've seen in the past couple years. This could easily run an hour long and still barely scratch the surface

[@merrybeans3029]

This interview is fantastic.

[@Elizabeth-yp8re]

Thank you , Professor. Oh to take a class from you!❤️

[@DenKulesteSomFins]

UBI is a more reasonable, important and principled solution to inequality than free college

[@rajashashankgutta4334]

UBI is great, if you want to increase inflation.

[@atomiccritter6492]

both can exist

[@samuelforesta]

Everybody should be able to pursue the education they want. Free college should be a thing.

[@verenafraser]

All these outcomes he's speaking of exist now. Privileged people already think their success is a result of merit

[@markzuckergecko621]

Meritless people think their failures are someone else's fault.

[@credman]

@@markzuckergecko621 When a central bank causes a depression, I guess all those people who lose their jobs are "meritless" for thinking it's not 100% their fault.

[@RozzieBass]

There's a terrific show out of Brazil, on Netflix called 3%. Where everyone at age 18 goes through "the process". Then 3% of the people earn a place in a paradise. Everyone else lives in squalor, sickness, extreme poverty. And everyone believes they are where they should be. Great show, and a great treatment of the dystopian aspects of meritocracy. I recommend it "3%".

[@sedonarose7563]

Value of work either by hand or brain should be respected and equalized.

[@williammcadoo8685]

Great Interview David 👌

[@ridicule1313]

Absolutely fascinating, I hadnt heard of this guy

[@nates1092]

Not everyone is cut out for four-year college and beyond. As a policy, our education policy through high school should be focused on preparing young people for job training and practical life skills. And we should not disrespect anyone who is working in jobs that don’t require baccalaureate or graduate degrees. Someone had told me that education is a hammer, not a trophy. Higher education should be for those who intend to make the most of it. If you cannot determine how to make a living with your education, and reconcile the costs with the job market opportunities, potential salary, and your willingness to grind in that career field, then maybe college is not the best option for you at this time.

[@aandyherr817]

People who put down or insult those who do jobs that are **REQUIRED** for society to function, are by definition the problem of society. If you can’t respect the janitor, you can’t respect anyone.

[@Monk-ow3ok]

I love his EDX course on justice

[@aristocratic]

Can't believe I hadn't seen this earlier. Dr Sandel is among my favourite philosophers in history.

[@kcobley]

In all western countries there are massive housing shortages, caused by high construction costs, huge labour shortages in the construction industry. The costs of tradesmen in plumbing, bricklaying, electrical and carpentry trades have risen to undreamt of levels, making home construction unaffordable for the ordinary person, huge amounts of labor being used to construct McMansions for executives. For any inroads to be made into the cost and supply of housing far greater funding needs to be applied to trade education, far less to assist degrees into white collar occupations that technology will fast replace. University degreed occupations will largely be gone over the next 20 years. An economy can't run on coders selling programs to each other.

[@SuperAshleyriot]

Incredible! Gems like this is why I subscribe to this channel.

[@davidscribner1841]

There was a time when people who were master technicians and mechanics and the like were deemed respectable and their skills indispensable

[@Monica0978]

I guess I’m behind the times because I still believe that.

[@JemDreamz]

The Hershey rose garden is always an amazing walk.

[@RCT1963]

Brilliant interview & guest David. It has opened my mind a bit further.

[@LSPalm]

Universities/Student Lenders have a huge lobby on both parties

[@butywbrainz]

This makes me think of Joe Manchin. He doesn't want to make child tax credit permanent bc no one had to work or go to school for it.

[@universeconsciouscitizensc592]

Fantastic insights, Professor Sandel (and a great guest, David). We will be running our nation well, when we are able to run it as we would a beloved family. Something to shoot for in the far future.

[@fullmatthew]

Interesting interview. I'd love to watch a formal debate on this topic.

[@echo9phpe]

At the end of his passionate speech, Michael Sandel mentioned the German Social Democrat and minister of finance Olaf Scholz who surprisingly succeeded in winning the best chance to lead the next German government as chancellor. As a matter of fact, Scholz is inspired by Sandel's book in his campaign. From the way in which he is citing it you can safely conclude that he has really studied it. He also observed that reading the British author Michael Young's book "The rise of meritocracy" from 1958, one of Sandel's main references which appeared in German translation as "Long live inequality!" in 1961, shattered some of his own longheld convictions. Vocational training has always been an essential part of German economic life. Angela Merkel tried to woo Trump during her first visit to the Trump White House by offering support for it in all American branches of German companies like Siemens or BMW and many others under the heading "The Apprentice". At that time, she had not yet taken the proper measure of Trump's personality. All German governments regularly intervened when the number of applicants for an apprenticeship outstripped the number of open places. Meanwhile companies have difficulties to find enough applicants. Which has contributed to the rediscovery of the subject of "dignity of work" which once was regarded as one of the most important goals of the "Social Market Economy". The latter had been held up both by Social Democrats and Christian Democrats as the paradigmatic answer to the condemnation of capitalism by our communist neighbours since the 1940's until it became the object of neoliberal derision as the main reason for Germany's "corporatism" and sluggish economic backwardness during the 80's and started to be dismantled after 1989, even if never to the same degree as in Thatcher's Britain or Reagan's US. Now Scholz' interest in Sandel's ideas and the latter's interest in European labour traditions seems like a promising new page in transatlantic relations.

[@chasesimons3579]

Great interview!

[@1927su]

Really good content David! Thank you!

[@Ascend777]

I really appreciate your guest Michael Sander.

[@ShaaRhee]

No matter what system, there will always be people on top looking down onto the rest

[@seriousguy2160]

What do you want to happen?

[@mcjett5870]

Bernie Sanders ❤️

[@jaybleu6169]

I generally agree with what Sandel is saying, and can see some of this in the Democratic party. I mean... just about everyone in politics seems to take it for granted that life is fundamentally about working and making a buck over any other values. What I don't understand, though... When I listen to Republicans speak, it sounds to me like their argument is 100% meritocratic. The rich are rich because they're better than you and work harder, and if you're struggling, it's 100% your fault as an individual. That's why someone like Larry Elder wants to eliminate the minimum wage and social spending, because the money just goes to the undeserving. And it's why we should cut the taxes of the rich. Because they deserve that money and will spend it wisely, because they are so much wiser than the rest of us. The poor (ie, anyone with less money than, say Mitt Romney) would just waste it on trivial entertainments. These are actual Republican arguments, backed up by policies they introduce. And yet a guy like Trump - a billionaire who was born rich and went to Wharton - becomes the champion of people who see the Democrats as the party of meritocratic elites? This is a guy who said in the 2016 debates that he'd only stop using Chinese steel in his buildings if it was made illegal, but he's the hero of the working man and it's the Democrat elites who are guilty of offshoring labor? People who are put off by the meritocratic tendencies of the Democratic party run to a party that is the absolute embodiment of all the worst parts of meritocracy. How does that work? They seem so much worse to me, in this respect.

[@comets4sale]

No objection here, though Sandel does mention neoliberalism (economic elite) in the podcast and in the book but obviously he focuses his energy on liberals for their betrayal of the working class and he's not the first to do so. It is worth mentioning that there is a previous book Sandel wrote called the Moral Limits of the Market in which he goes into more about the flaws of neoliberalism.

[@nooneofconsequence1251]

Even the worst meritocracy or geniocracy would be better than our current democracy.

[@zahinchowdhury5596]

Excellent interview!

[@jakmerejim575]

Loved his Harvard Lectures.

[@dianewaters3202]

Wow! Fabulous interview

[@MrAaronvee]

Get a better close-captioning service: it is often telling (deaf) people something completely different! For example, it changed 'own doing' to 'undoing'.

[@hansvandermeulen5515]

Michael Sandel made a couple of enjoyable tv series in The Netherlands with a group of dutch artists/entrepeneurs in their 20s and 30s where they engaged in Socratic debates about different topics, mostly concerning politics, technology and human rights ("would computerized trials be a good thing?" Is one topic I seem to remember). I would like to see a repeat of that or more of such series.

[@chancelacina]

Sandel missed the memo on bullshit jobs imo. He replaces the 'meritocracy' panacea with a workism panacea. Full employment as a collective goal has been no less a failure than insisting everyone get an education or pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I don't see how anyone who has actually worked an average American job (i.e. a 40 hour work week at McDonalds) talks about the "dignity of work" as if work is inherently dignifying or valuable. Maybe his conception of work counts independently pursuing one's own goals/interests as valuable, but I suspect like nearly every other political thinker he thinks 'work' must be tied in with a master/servant relationship in order to count as dignified.

[@doreenang3974]

Interesting conversation...

[@ingridschmid1709]

Couldn't one say that meritocracy often results in blinkering conformism, I'm not sure though that emphasizing some inherent dignity of work truly would be a solution . Great content David love your interviews.

[@BrianPex]

This here….

[@comets4sale]

The best book review I came across was in the Nation, entitled "What comes after Meritocracy" I believe.

[@onlymastery915]

You should invite Adrian Wooldridge as the contrary. His book, The Aristocracy of Talent: How Meritocracy made the Modern World, is a great counter argument to Sandel. But both scholars make important points that are noteworthy. Another person talking about this is Raghuram Rajan.

[@Yvonnexoxo]

Great interview.💯

[@jerryjones7293]

Power is amoral, but it attracts the worst of us. Hard work is not enough.

[@albertowachsman]

This is a very sharp analysis of the situation. As progressives, we have been cornered into supporting the Democratic party because the alternative is much worse (and getting even worse every day). My son is a college professor and he was looking at it from a different angle; most jobs that 'require' a college degree can be absolutely be done well by somebody with a much shorter training, but the employers will not give them a chance and will only pick college graduates. College cost has also been a huge factor in making young people (and sometimes their parents) poorer by spending the money they don't have to get a diploma.

[@iaov]

Great guest!!

[@wendell7173]

Trade schools 👍

[@carsonburke4727]

Perfect interview!

[@louisz1468]

This concept promotes the tyranny of idiocracy

[@shawnnewell4541]

You should read the "Peter Principal " it says basically people rise to their level of incompetency.

[@olivergreen1520]

100% I’m a capitalist by heart but I agree with this. I don’t think it’s the system or the government that’s rigged. It’s just the reality of the topic. Humans have different capacities, luck, wealth, talent, genetics, iq, parents, etc is a huge factor for the outcome. It’s not a matter of hard work, it’s a matter of competence. As I like to say, instead of “you can be whatever you want and do whatever you want”, it’s more like you can only become what you are CAPABLE of.

[@jessetheskeptic601]

I've been meaning to order his book; thanks for the reminder, I just ordered a copy of it. If anyone is interested, he has a great lecture series available on YT called Justice, which I found very thought provoking.

[@sandralee6848]

Good ONE!

[@toi_techno]

amazing take

[@virginiamoss7045]

Another thought: Reregulate capitalism to force higher pay for all workers, a living wage for all jobs. Yes, everything would cost more, but we could tax less by taxing the rich more, way more, very heavily. Let the rich leave if they don't like it. Better minds than mine would have to figure it all out. I am now beginning to fade into old age with the bare beginnings of dementia. I now know what it's like to not have a sharp mind that can hold multiple elements at the same time to make decisions. I can't remember things or pull out words I want to use. I need things to be simple now. I can now see how those who have always been like this struggle against the world out there. They are here and they deserve a reasonable level of living regardless of their "merit".

[@brianpetersen3429]

Excellent video!

[@toneyeye]

You could not claim that there is anything like meritocracy alongside familial asset inheritance. The two concepts are contradictory.

[@Guide504]

Interesting perspective but you miss the fundamental reality that life is not fair, neither is the natural world of which we are a part. Survivors make the future, it's just a fact and it is independent of feeling or concideration.

[@masterman7033]

The solution is to change the monetary system. To put transactional value on non material mediums.

[@buckbaumann773]

What he's saying is if the dog doesn't get the bone, the bone gets the dog?!?

[@aaronsande]

14:30 here's where he goes off the rails because the Republican party is NO BETTER on ANY of these issues that affect the imbalances he speaks of. So it is NOT flawed to vote for Democrats. But we have to make them get better, of course!

[@BrendanBeckett]

When did he say it was wrong to vote for them or that the Republicans would be better?

[@robertzinki7422]

Why America is going to the dogs when there is/are people like this distinguished professor.

[@devos3212]

I agree so much with all of this.

[@devos3212]

@Ronald Reagan thank you for the kind words Mr. Reagan.

[@devos3212]

@Ronald Reagan we could have had a civilized conversation if you didn’t call me a fool. Good day to you.

[@devos3212]

@Ronald Reagan peace ✌️

[@comets4sale]

Read the book recently. A necessary book I think and extremely well argued. It is skewed against the liberals, I think partly because liberals abandoned the working class 30 years ago and Sandel is holding their feet to the fire for it. Liberals should have known better. While Sandel doesn't let the Right off the hook, he's just aiming primarily at the liberals in this book. To compensate for this skewness I would recommend reading the relevant chapters in Piketty's Capital and Ideology (2019) which splits the elite into two fractions--Merchant Right and Brahmin Left, one the economic elite and the other the cultural elite. Plus Piketty's got all the interesting data on voting patterns that show the Democratic party abandoning the working class to focus on achieving better race and gender representation in the economic and cultural meritocratic order, that is, among the meritocratic winners. I think combining these two--Piketty and Sandel--gives us the full deal.

[@LoriThantos]

The white working class left the Democratic Party because it wasn't working for "them," it was working for all of the people - take a look at the actual demographics of the election. The Democrats won every group under $100k/yr. You know who won the middle class and up? The Republican. What groups were heavily Republican (I'm defining here as 55%+)? Married Men Whites (58%) White Men (61%) White Women (55%) Protestant/Other Christian (60%) Whites over 30 White No-College (67%) $100-200k (57%) Rural (57%) This isn't really new. Nixon and Reagan ran on the Southern Strategy of making dog-whistle calls to racism. Trump traded the dog-whistle for a bullhorn. This notion of the Democrats as losing the working class relies on a definition of working class that excludes the working class in favor of a segment called the White Working Class. Which is okay, if you want to play pretend, but not so great if you want to discuss reality. I'm afraid the professor here has fallen for the same nonsense that drives the New York Times to search out white grievance when trying to figure out Clinton's loss, rather than admit the reality of Republican Racism.

[@comets4sale]

@@LoriThantos Not sure if we disagree, if I'm reading you right, but I'd certainly recommend a perusal of the relevant chapters in Piketty--his data is solid.

[@DaemonJax]

Even if you get a degree from a decent university (like state uni) with a decent degree (something that directly applies to a STEM field), you may not make any more than if you went into a blue collar trade. You have to look at the average earning of graduates, and that info isn't always available. Relatively few universities have high earning average for graduates.

[@tomslick5456]

Lifetime earnings of someone with a college degree are higher than someone without one. The problem is college debt. I am not saying that one job is superior, but college is not a bad thing either.

[@Infinitebrandon]

Our military runs on meritocracy, greedy nerds can't understand that. Don't teach every "modern" person it, but encourage it , especially in government. Our US military has greedy nerds, but heroes shine and are honored, though not often enough to the degree they deserve. "Man to man is so unjust. Children, you don't know who to trust," Bob Marley. But with people of culture, people who have developed a love for God, meritocracy is automatic, as we say in Hawaii. It's all about love, look at how distant most Americans are from that.

[@gagewesterhouse9558]

Yes, a system based on competence is so awful...

[@BrianPex]

Dripping with sarcasm I’d guess… ;-)

[@sweetpeaxh]

If we had one, that would be nice. Instead it’s more of who you know and who you blow and you parents.

[@dondahlgaard1789]

His argument is confounded and confused because his nieve religious bedrock moral doctrine of equality is grossly distorted. Nothing real follows.

[@tylerhackner9731]

Love Sandel

[@kalmansovari6878]

If I live a reasonable life both physically and mentally, and due to this I manage to attract a good looking and smart wife, do I have to "lend" her every now and then to my neighbor who is the perfect antithesis of my traits.

[@RozzieBass]

Are you saying a wife is something you earn? And therefore you own, or control, such that you could lend her out?

[@kalmansovari6878]

@@RozzieBass No

[@jayaswati1505]

@@RozzieBass lol perfect explanation

[@atomiccritter6492]

anyone boasting they have a good looking and smart wife...doesnt have one

[@kalmansovari6878]

@@atomiccritter6492 ok

[@Bjorn2055]

The US meritocracy since 1970: The real GDP per total hours worked increased 2.44 times (now twice as many Americans work). The top 10% tier grew their purchasing power 90 times more than that of bottom 50%! 😱 (yeah, by comparison it is shocking!). So, just keep in mind, the outrageous kleptocracy is 90 to 2.44! At least.

[@jebkfan9146]

I think he is right but other factors are really important, too. Like racism or the inability to accept cultural evolution.