Every Game is a Hero Shooter Now and It Sucks...

It seems like every new game that comes out nowadays is a hero shooter, even when it doesn't need to be. Why? Once treasured franchises like Battlefield often end up pivoting to a live service hero shooter model eventually. At a certain point it's not even about the mechanics. You just want to play something else. This is the story of the hero shooter as we all know it, from class based classics to the modern slop we can't stand today. How did we get here, and is there merit to the hero shooter formula that we haven't considered?
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[@Ian99_]

2017 - every game is a hero shooter 2024 - every game is still a hero shooter

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Pretty much

[@pearsareawful9006]

It's like we got bored of Battle Royale games and the industry couldn't think of the next big trend, so they decided to go backwards instead. We'll be back to zombie shooters in 2028 like it's 2010 again.

[@nachi6808]

​@@pearsareawful9006I can tolerate zombies atleast

[@tylerbacoka4248]

everything is a pay to win battle pass fiesta, actual skill gone.

[@Haaton-of-the-Basement]

​@@pearsareawful9006Atleast we haven't been on that trend since 2010. Waiting 18years to have another zombies trend doesn't seem that bad.

[@vj_henke]

yeah, chess is complicated, but it doesn't release a new piece every 3 months for a 20 $ price tag...

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

100%

[@DjTinnio]

In chess, both have the same loadout, the same chances. In ability games it's, oh this guy had a rocket, not my fault, what it do. Boring af.

[@dumbvillage9253]

chess is inherently competitive and is indirectly ruined by people who already play it. Raising the barrier of entry so high up, that you are better off just not trying to get into it anyway. Because everyone else already knows every single possible chess combination and an exact counter to your every move. If anything, chess needs an update the most. Because it's a completely solved game. With incredibly stale gameplay, being purely a "who spent more time studying" check. The best chess player isn't the smartest person, the best chess player is a computer, with a very extensive database. Anyways, it being inherently competitive and being ruined by it's overly passionate community is a trait shared with mobas, and hero shooters.

[@TalesOfWar]

Go is even more complicated.

[@preBLANK]

​@@DjTinnioThere is a colour advantage as white got the first move

[@Snowmaninadesert]

seriously why the hell aren't we getting any tf2 clones, everything that people hate about hero shooters just dont exist in tf2

[@motorista_ramon]

tf2?!? "just let it go bruh... it's over😂😂"

[@Snowmaninadesert]

@@motorista_ramon its jover 😔

[@stupidusernamestaken]

@@motorista_ramon Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off!

[@UnregisteredUsername]

no need to clone perfection

[@blackomega34]

We hate Snipers and the TF2 one is the worst of them all.

[@Kmn483]

Remember when every game had RPG Elements? Remember when every game was an Open World? Remember when every game was a Battle Royale? Remember when every game was an MMO? This too shall pass.

[@qaztim11]

You are acting as if those trends are gone, the only one that is truly gone is the MMO one.

[@Kmn483]

@@qaztim11 They used to be a LOT worse. The BR trend definitely fizzled out. Open world is still very prevalent but not quite as bad as it was. It's important to note that a lot of these genres contradict each other. You're not going to have a roguelite, open world, battle royale, hero shooter, mmo... They all just share a percent of the gaming market now.

[@chozochiefxiii3298]

I wish the trend of open world games and rpg mechanics shoehorned into everything would just end already. It's why I avoid most aaa games. They put out the same crap.

[@Desolas_]

​@@qaztim11You say that but there are attempts of new ones being made. Some older titles such as FF14 and WoW are still alive (the latter still has suckers to keep it going). People said the same thing for the RTS genre, though it it's not as popular as it used to be, it's far from dead but rather it's just dormant. Older genres will either get a renaissance or it'll synthesize into something "new".

[@bradley6386]

Yea the rpg thing is sort of annoyintg sometimes

[@vvvvvortexxxxx]

16:00 The math is actually pretty simple: Every round of siege each team has 36 possibilities, but since everyone can only play one operator, every pick eliminates one option. Therefore, the equation would be 36•35•34•33•32 per team (45,239,040 possibilities PER TEAM PER ROUND). This does not account for there being multiple maps, spawn points and rounds. The total number of possible combinations would likely be in the billions.

[@jamesverner9132]

In TF2 everyone can be heavy and after defening yourself to the minigun fire you just move forward until someone starts a conga line and then you stalemate. It perfection

[@wasw]

wouldn't you just continue multiplying 36*35*34*33*32*36*35*34*33*32 (or simply multiple the possibilities of team 1 x the possibilities of team 2)

[@borrowedcolt1108]

PVZ Garden Warfare is so good people forget it is a hero shooter

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

100%

[@StarboyAngel]

f yeah my favorite game that im sad dies day by day ea do something

[@almighymole2142]

All 3 Garden warfairs are amazing, especially the 2nd! 😂

[@meowcow21]

It's so good people forget it exists

[@QuantumPurple]

@@meowcow21it still has a decent amount of players, especially on consoles you can find players quickly

[@ashleejones586]

It’s either hero shooter, extraction shooter, or battle royale, and I’m so tired of it

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Real

[@edwinwandera6993]

There's plenty of games that aren't that, it's just you who don't buy them and give developers no reason to develop that game

[@Ricotherascal]

Dont forget the hero x extraction shooter and the hero x battle royale

[@TheBloopers30]

@@edwinwandera6993 I mean. Just not being a Hero Shooter doesn't necessarily make the game good in his book I would assume.

[@agentoranj5858]

And yet as somebody who didn't get into the first wave of extraction shooters I am now keeping an eye on Beautiful Light and on Forever Winter.

[@gayema664]

Honestly tf2 might be the best "hero shooter" because of one reason, no one is missing out on their favorite and best class.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Real

[@soldier22881]

except its not a hero shooter.... there are no heroes or special abilities, there are only classes and thats about it and they vary the gameplay through different weapons instead of abilities

[@nicjolas]

​@@soldier22881dont't those classes each have their own unique abilities though? at a certain point its not that far of a stretch to see how similar heroes are to classes

[@soldier22881]

@@nicjolas nope, all about guns, scout is the only one you could consider having an "ability"

[@nicjolas]

@@soldier22881 every class has guns that function entirely differently. "ability" doesnt just have to refer to a magical ability like something non-existent in reality i would consider the soldier's rocket launcher to be its own unique ability compared to the pyro's flamethrower

[@_qqw3rtyz]

TF2 is what kickstarted the hero shooter industry. The inspiration for Team Fortress 2 was the original Team Fortress which was a quake mod. The developers of the original Team Fortress mod also worked on TF2. 0:23

[@joshwa2206]

Team fortress mod for quake created the genre. Team fortress classic (mod for half-life) pioneered it and TF2 perfected it.

[@nurpiet]

funny because now with deadlock valve is also releasing the final and best hero shooter.

[@soffa93]

@@nurpiet deadlock is basically just dota with guns

[@nurpiet]

@@soffa93 you mean dota if it was good

[@nemezio9495]

He says Overwatch kickstarted the TREND. Team Fortress pioneered it, but it was after Overwatch blew up and won the GOTY award that it really started getting out of hand. (TF2 player, btw)

[@Jarbear-135]

And now our hero, Marvel Rivals is released to save us from bad hero shooters.

[@Hdood.]

I think tf2 is the perfect hero shooter as it gives people freedom to change stuff and its fun at the same time as being balanced due to each class countering another

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

A gem

[@herkload]

I hate how people call TF2 a hero shooter when that term didn’t even exist in 2007, but yeah I agree with your point.

[@fuu6490]

TF2 is a class based shooter same cases like Battlefield Heroes, that franchise was basic of blue print of prototype modern heroes shooter

[@TheSpacePyro]

Oh yeah if it’s so bad why is it 17 years old and still being played. Something doesn’t add up with your logic. Plus if it’s so bad why did the community start movements to get valve to get rid of the bots. Heck if the game is as bad as you say why is the community constantly fighting to keep it alive. TF2 is rooted deep into the internet you just have to look for it.

[@SneedSeeding]

@@GreatBlueWorld Its balance isn't bad... don't know where you're getting that from but the gameplay is not meant to be competitive you're right about that. Valve tried to shoehorn a bigger competitive scene in to compete with OWL and that was a mistake for TF2. Calling TF2 a modern hero shooter is just wrong because A: It was never meant to be competitive, B: It doesn't have abilities in the same way more modern shooters do, and, C: It doesn't suffer from class/hero bloat. If I have to choose between booting up a match of TF2 or OW, it's always gonna be TF2 for me these days. Better balance, less bloat, simple fun.

[@niveketihw1897]

In my day (Unreal Tournament team games) we didn't need specialized characters, we used our actual actions to determine roles.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

So real

[@benc77]

Fr

[@crimnvL]

its called CS the perfect esport

[@Bignarfin]

csgo does this perfecrly in esports now

[@dotapazappy]

unreal tournament was the OG ego shooter, those voice lines where they are telling off the enemy definitely inspired games like team fortress to be what they are. I wish so badly younger people enjoyed arena shooters more because those are just more fun for me.

[@KudosR6]

Concord being shut down a day after this was uploaded was the cherry on top, great video 💜

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Thanks Kudos! Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@microwavecaprisun9515]

Dang kudos commented? Nice

[@TheCranksterr]

KUDOS!!!

[@barry5]

Have you... played videogames lately? I just went through steams new & trending section in the multiplayer category, seeing how long i could scroll before finding a hero shooter. I gave up 156 games in. Out of all the problems with modern videogames, this is not one of them.

[@TheSense13]

I agree, I feel like any shooter where the character has an ability and has pvp gets branded as a hero shooter... in reality there's not much hero shooters and those that are there are pretty old now.

[@paprzyckie]

Is the finals technically a hero shooter?

[@bdingkle7596]

@@paprzyckieI’d argue that’s more of a fusion of hero shooters and royale. The game itself plays like no other modern game while still retaining certain aspects (classes, objective capturing), but if you start saying that just because a game has classes and guns it’s a hero shooter, you’re making it purposefully more annoying for yourself IMO

[@Circurose]

​@@paprzyckieif The Finals is a Hero shooter then CoD is a hero shooter.

[@marvin2678]

So what IS it Then ?

[@terribletimes902]

There’s like 2 recent hero shooters and you suddenly think they are the biggest genre like this is 2016. Bro. It’s extraction shooters. I am sick of every new fps being an extraction shooter or having an extraction mode. Even before that, it was not hero shooters, it was BRs

[@jijidu69]

It's crazy that he acts like hero shooters are everywhere when you have less than 10 on the market. The only hero shooters in recent years just died immediately. So it's clearly not a very popular genre outside pre 2017 games

[@mortis5551]

Yeah extraction shooter sucks tbh. There is 1 good and its tarkov and there will never be a extraction shooter that can reach a single procent of that what tarkov does. And still every big company has to give it a try. But hero shooters sucks too. Valve with the lame one and concord also lame. OW sucked since the creation and valorant is just cs in adhd. Battle royale too. 1 big game comes out with a good idea, it gets popular and then every company has to try it too even when every single human being knows it will be a soulless game.

[@Metha_59]

@@mortis5551 calling tarkov good, dont make me laugh 😂

[@mortis5551]

@@Metha_59 Tarkov is objectivly good. Yeah it has its problems, but gunplay and gameplay wise its the best extraction shooter.

[@Doctor-NOOOOOOOOOOO]

@@mortis5551 Meh, I don't think TF2 is lame I mean yeah it kickstarted the hero shooter genre but it's very very fun (i am most definitely not biased at all in any way)

[@Caliburnz]

I really hate the fact R6 Siege went from a quirky tactical one-life shooter to just overwatch with a tactical paint job with clones, teleportation, and other nonsense.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

R6 is not Overwatch with a "tactical paint job"

[@themavrandbrickashaw5511]

R6 was always a hero shooter!

[@leesasuki]

@@themavrandbrickashaw5511 wouldn't say so, you can know nothing about the ability or gadget, and still win 1v5 with decent shot and map knowledge, Seige is still Seige unless you don't know how it play

[@__-ni1kz]

Tom Clancy would be disappointed.

[@Vespyr_]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op Uhm, yeah, it is... lol. Nothing about Siege represents what Rainbow Six originally was. Its Tom Clancy roots are gone. It's just a tactical paintjob on a bunch of fantasy scifi bs.

[@Doinstuffman]

I wish Battleborn had an actual chance of survival. That game was so much better than it's lifespan would indicate. Coming out at the same time as Overwatch doomed it

[@popereptillianlord6174]

if they were smart they would have delayed it until after overwatch

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Timing is everything.

[@Doinstuffman]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op preach

[@EduardoMello-fx1mx]

@damsen978 Just because something is exaggerated doesn’t mean it is stupid. I personally think Battleborn’s character design did a great job at conveying what each character should be doing. It’s rather easy to distinguish which characters are meant to endure tons of damage in the frontline from those that prefer to keep a safe distance from their targets or those who take a more supportive role in team compositions. The fact that the developers decided to make a “big guy using a heavy weapon” doesn’t indicate an incompetent or unoriginal character design: it just shows that the devs wanted to appeal to the people that like to play as such characters. If that’s not your cup of tea then that’s fine: nobody’s forced to like everything. But to say that Rainbow Six Siege did a better job than Battleborn in designing character classes is to miss the entire point of character design, which is to convey the general idea of a character with the least amount of resistance as possible. The operators from Rainbow Six are, for the most part, rather bland character design-wise. Apart from operators like Rook, whose heavy protective gear would indicate a more sturdy character, and Nøkk, whose concealed appearance would suggest a focus on stealth, most characters from that game fail to convey through their designs what they are supposed to be doing. I understand that Rainbow Six has a more grounded, realistic approach when it comes to character design. However, being realistic is not an excuse to hinder the readability of your characters, especially in a game where players have to identify their threats in a fast manner and with little room for error.

[@thatonepenguinperson618]

​@damsen978In my opinion, siege has the most generic character designs I've ever seen which is part of why I haven't touched it. To each their own though.

[@MrPortal]

If Dual Strike has million fans, then I'm one of them. If Dual Strike has one fan, then I'm THAT ONE. If Dual Strike has no fans, that means I'm dead.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Get on Dual Strike

[@vogonp4287]

Dual Strike sounds pretty interesting actually.

[@GameFreak64101]

Dual Strike is pretty unbalanced, but it's still a good Advance Wars game

[@camber_courtney5250]

​@@TheCouch-Co-Opdo I have your permission to create a concept for for Duel Strike? I love the idea of the game on so many levels :)

[@dotapazappy]

Advance wars? I love Dual strike but Advance wars 2 is better.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Why are you trying to use AI to solve an equation? It's a text generator not a calculator. Each Siege team can be one of 376,992 combinations of the 36 classes, which means that there are 142 billion possible 10-player match lineups.

[@dr.cheeze5382]

I presume he couldn't find the calculation online and couldn't remember his math class. So he took to asking for the answer. Although he could have just asked on reddit or even contacted a professor instead of AI slop.

[@scrittle]

They fell for the marketing. If you fear making a mathematical error, take an estimate and say "more than a million". Honestly, sometimes creators bring up AI more as a humble brag than an actual assistant tool.

[@seed179]

At least use wolfram alpha instead...

[@Accorinrin]

Cause this guy is a dumbass. This video is enough proof of that.

[@coldspade1590]

i was genuinely so confused when that part came up like what do you mean you couldnt just... look it up? society is cooked i fear

[@C3lticlord]

Paladins was developed at the same time as Overwatch, it was inspired by their previous game Global Agenda

[@squiddler7731]

On the bright side, I think we literally just saw the entire hero shooter genre die with Concord, lol. It was such a monumental and historic failure that I could see the entire industry doing a 180, halting or reassessing development of anything that even remotely resembles a hero shooter if it isn't already successful.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

It will definitely cause some self reflection.

[@bencarlson4300]

Good.

[@thatguy1080]

Good! I hope we go back to generic soldier dudes. I hate 2042 for ruining the near future setting.

[@Relhio]

If this is the conclusion you came up with, you're not following the industry much and have terrible deduction skills.

[@nestormelendez9005]

Xbox is releasing their own hero shooter called fragpunk

[@EGoat]

I think this is why TF2 still stands out the most. YOU can play how you see fit with different weapons, and those weapons turn the main classes into sub-classes. If hero shooters were to do anything, make weapons have different effects depending on what you add. Paladins is great, too. They have special abilities similar to a MOBA, but instead it's different categories of movement speed, damage, specials, or something in-between.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Love that

[@ttxna-2714]

@@TheCouch-Co-Opi was surprised to not see paladins mentioned in the video

[@carl5939]

but tf2 would still be better if it didnt have to rely on medics to heal ppl, very boring role and annoying to have to rely on them constantly. another issue engineers being required for their teleporters. very annoying, u just have to walk across the entire map every spawn if u dont have 1-2 engis to provide teles. the rest of classes mostly make sense though.

[@Rainbowhawk1993]

Single Player gamer to Multiplayer gamer: “Wow, sucks to be you.”

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

pretty much

[@infinitydragonoid2655]

Multiplayer gamer looking at all of the walking simulators that single player gamers have to deal with: "Wow, it REALLY sucks to be you."

[@Rainbowhawk1993]

@@infinitydragonoid2655 Looks to the AA and Indie market. “You were saying?”

[@b.w.s3165]

@@infinitydragonoid2655 If you ignore the heap of shit that is the AAA industry, those games are literally the overwhelming minority of singleplayer games lol

[@SLRModShop]

I don't like Dark Souls and its 930 clones, I don't play multiplayer games: "Wow, sucks to be me, I literally have nothing to play for a whole decade 😅"

[@nad613]

Battleborne wasn't a hero shooter exactly, any sort of PVP was exclusively first person MOBA.

[@AC-ov5ny]

‘Gaming sucks now. There are no good games’ - Guy who exclusively plays fortnite and buys the deluxe edition of cod and fifa every year.

[@IHJello]

Im 34. Grew up playing Halo 2, Unreal Tournament, COD4, TF2, Mechwarrior 4, CS, Starcraft 2, and WOW. Its no games fault, but how society coexists with the internet. Its a great time to be alive, but the ease of access separates big groups into niches. Smaller groups means the capital has to fight harder for retention ultimately lowering the amount of things consumers target. Cool video, but its not any games fault. Its ours.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

fair

[@IHJello]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op Sorry. I didn't mean to sound rude. I'm just disappointed at how unprepared people were for the digital revolution. I was 17 in 2007. Anyone my age could've told you this is where we were headed, but no old school person is going to agree with a 17yo lol.

[@blackomega34]

The 'hero format' exists because it's easy to monetize. It's not better, or worse, than classes or loadouts or whatever, but it is easy to monetize and therefore it's what gets made. I don't see why I would dismiss a game because 'hero elements'.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Agreed.

[@crimnvL]

its also a marketing tool, new hero = way to draw players back. but simultaneously the game balance gets worse and worse the more new heros u add. and the game eventually becomes over complicated with too many heros to learn for new players to want to try the game making it a game you have to main to enjoy.

[@maxuwl]

@@crimnvLyou know, this would happend to tf2 if they add more and more weapons right?imagine like 5 types of pda for the engineer, a ideia that didnt go anywhere, more types of invisibility for spy, as if the 3 we already have is not enough, more fire for fucking every class so scout and pryo can finally profit from it, more mediguns, including one that medic starts the killing instead the one that he is pocketing, you heard of battle engineer, what about TANK ENGINEER i like tf2 weapons,but some are already stupid broken (too good and too bad) imagine if they add more

[@edvingjervaldsaeter3659]

We still have Paladins which yes has a lot of characters, but with the talent system and all the cards and items still allows for a lot of character customization, yes there are meta builds but you can experiment with a lot of stuff and almost completely change how a character can play and it's great! The game is a bit low on players, but still very much alive and has gotten a TON of improvements and is very much worth playing

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Maybe I should try out Paladins

[@edvingjervaldsaeter3659]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op I'd say yea, people have called it before the "poor man's overwatch" due to it being free-to-play, but Paladins came out before OW and has made itself a neat identity, especially with the talents, loadout and stuff, but also, the new passive that OW damage heroes got where enemies hit receive less healing? That has been part of Paladins for ages and is like THE most important part of the game, especially because EVERYONE has it and it starts low, but grows to 90% later in the game, which gives each match a distinct early and late game, which does take more brainpower to wrap your head around but also with the slower TTK in general, there's more time to get out of dodge If you do give it a try, try to get Imani, a very fun and cultured damage champion/hero

[@pierreCHT]

​@@TheCouch-Co-Op You're a bit too late, but yeah try it anyway

[@hyl14nn1gh7]

It definitely has a learning curve, and with the talents, loadouts, and in-game items, it makes for a ton of combinations to keep track of. But the fact that you can play each character in a variety of ways makes it a lot more fun than the other hero shooters.

[@mirius4665]

​@@TheCouch-Co-Opsadly the game is on life support now

[@blackfire1657]

16:20 it’s 142,121,984,084 different possibilities

[@glens2019]

The industry didn't learn since we just came out of MOBA fatigue when hero shooters started to come up. Then, people hated being at the mercy of bad team mates in team games so they moved to the more independent battle royale genre.

[@bencarlson4300]

Ironically, one of the bigger games this year is Deadlock, a hero shooter MOBA. Trends come and go in waves and cycles.

[@ninjandddoron2792]

16:24 using chatgpt and the most current roster of siege operators (37 per side) I found there can be 331,501,231,049 combinations of operators (for both teams) PER ROUND because you switch from round to round. your welcome for the updated numbers and have a good day

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Thanks

[@ninjandddoron2792]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op of course

[@retrohero5475]

Guys you know calculators exist right?

[@bits360wastaken]

Since chatgpt is A: Owned by an evil corporation who lobbies against open source AI, and B: Wrong, According to a calculator, the true number of different possible teams excluding 2+ of same character, and different order of same team, is 435,897. Mistral large and llama70b with the prompt "How many unique combinations of 5 characters of a pool of 37 can exist, excluding 2 or more of the same character?" get the math right but screw up the final value.

[@pr0p3r99]

ChatGPT is really bad at doing this kind of math. The number of combinations of 35 choosing 5 for one team is 324,632. For both teams, it's the square of that, which is 105,385,935,424. The number of combinations of 37 choosing 5 for one team is 435,897 and 190,006,194,609 for both teams per round. I wrote a step by step solution for how to do this in my own comment on this video. It's (n!)/(r!*(n-r)!) where n is your count of options and r is the number you're choosing. Because there's two teams, you square the results of choosing one team.

[@shalom1523]

That ending phrase was just spot on. Deadlock might be the only truly refreshing Hero shooter on the market rn (AND its not even out yet lol). This, because they themselves kickstarted this whole niche.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

If anybody can do it's Valve

[@TheButterAnvil]

Deadlock is the first game in this vein that's gotten my interest, and I genuinely have no idea why. Maybe it's the movement, maybe it's that I want to understand mobas but dont

[@ARStudios2000]

Honestly I'd still classify it as a MOBA because for a shooter, at least in its current state, the shooting is...pretty basic honestly? If you're the best shooter player in the world, you will struggle to make a dent in this game versus if your opponent is a decent MOBA Player

[@havensplace]

deadlock is the only game that made me actual mad. in a good way.

[@AMACarter]

I hate to tell you - deadlock was not the first game in this genre. Epic games came out with paragon and it was almost identical, just wasn't as popular unfortunately

[@-Raylight]

Meanwhile a certain timeless game : *"Good news! We're not going to die! We're gonna live forever!"*

[@Sgt_Long_Dong]

I like siege because there’s so many operators. The goal isn’t to memorize all the combinations, it’s to remember some of them, and figure out a strategy on a round by round basis, and if you come up with a better plan or synergies better with your team by using your brain instead of relying on your memory, you’ll most likely win.

[@heardofrvb]

If the appeal of a hero shooter is the characters, then why isn't there a solo or co-op mode that fleshes them out more?

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Overwatch 2 :(

[@terribletimes902]

That was Lawbreakers, and it was forgotten so hard that even the person who made this video still thinks it was a PvP hero shooter in the same vein as all the others mentioner here 😂

[@AthanasiosJapan]

Try Earth Defense Force, which is a Coop PvE. 4 unique classes, it can be played solo, couch co-op (split screen) and online co-op up to 4 players. No pvp mode, but it is super fun.

[@Jenna_Talia]

The thing I've never understood about hero shooters is they practically beg you to pick a favourite. The idea is to have so many designs that at least one of them stands out to you. But name one hero shooter besides TF2 which doesn't actively punish you for being a one trick pony. It makes no sense whatsoever to have so many good designs then penalize players for bonding with said designs.

[@scrittle]

MOBAs do the same thing. You need general map and role knowledge, but they still beg newcomers to pick one character and stick with it. That way, once you're happy using one/two characters in each role, the devs will skew the meta and screw over your favourite heroes so you buy skins for the new OP heroes. It's intentional, it's shady, and I hate it.

[@ThatsPety]

Having a favorite is not the same thing as being a one trick. You put that on yourself

[@ncascini01]

I wonder how they pulled that off. I never played that game, but it always looked interesting.

[@0freeicecream956]

It's probably because every single one of them decided they needed to be an E-Sport. TF2 didn't even try to build-in a Ranked mode until after Overwatch came out, which consequently languished because most players on TF2 aren't even going for that mode/mentality of play. Even on servers like Uncletopia, the sweatiest default mode of play is inherently more casual than casual queue in Valorent or Overwatch is. This isn't to say you can't play TF2 more competitively (it still somehow has a small competitive scene), it's just that TF2 wasn't built around or forced into the pro scene early on, so the community never clung to that.

[@masterblaster2678]

@@scrittle It's always been like this for online games. If a multiplayer game still gets patches it's to mix up the soup a little, not attempt to make it perfect. It keeps people playing because different heroes/champs/whatever are being played in each different season which creates the illusion of novelty. If a perfectly balanced multiplayer game were ever to be made, people would stop playing it after they've mastered it, which would be a mere couple of months. That's the truth, the meta is always inherently ruthlessly unbalanced, you are supposed to pick a favorite and play at a disadvantage, or play into it and jump to whatever's the most powerful this time. They need to keep you playing, for many years preferably, technically you are the content for the other players as well.

[@ToastySofa]

Perhaps it’s the competitive nature of the game, but I don’t understand why the insanely long success of Counter-Strike isn’t studied more. Riot essentially copied it and had an instant hit.

[@TedBilk]

It doesn't need to be studied because it's a simple tactical shooter, like there's very little you can do wrong with something so simplistic. And valorant is a way different game than cs

[@Tac-Tactikus]

Valorant took the basics of Counter Strikes Gameplay and added abilities and so on to it. It is not that different. Yet i personally do belive that Valorant only took off because cs was not (and still is not) taken care off correctly. Valorant only reaches greatness because of Cs failures. If valorant came out a few years before it would have just never took off.

[@TedBilk]

@@Tac-Tactikus it looks the same but they really aren't the same, cs is about memorizing spray patterns whereas, valorant is about that first shot accuracy

[@JardTheRat]

​@@TedBilk Valorant is just a moba disguised as an fps. Not even comparable to cs.

[@RizzyGyatt]

"I ONLY play hero shooters and I suck" should be the actual title of this vid

[@Raxus001]

Lawbreakers had such tight gunplay mechanics. It was crispy. That game got criminally under appreciated

[@bryanmichimani3784]

Y’all give “the finals” a chance it’s free.. and destructive buildings for every map, cashbox and cashout bank objective style, 4 teams of 3 with L-M-H player classes

[@LaPlaga88]

Battleborn wasn’t a hero shooter though , it was a MOBA.

[@muplive]

At least it gave birth to the pre alpha masterpiece: Deadlock

[@KashimoJoestar]

doodoo fart game

[@muplive]

@@KashimoJoestar play it first

[@Doctor-NOOOOOOOOOOO]

@@KashimoJoestar found the concord fan

[@thejeremymotley]

if "every game is a hero shooter" maybe you should stop playing only hero shooters

[@Tabby3456]

2001-2014: Every game is a class shooter 2014-2024: Every game is a hero shooter

[@Lumaz001]

not every game is a hero shooter, you just dont experiment

[@loocsihaon]

Thank you 😭

[@rayquandia]

🙏

[@Doctor-NOOOOOOOOOOO]

I scrolled through the massively multiplayer section of steam and trying to find atleast 4 hero shooters and I gave up 3 minutes in

[@marvin2678]

What do you mean

[@p_mouse8676]

I am a little confused about the story. Class based games were already extremely popular before TF2? Its predecessor TF1 was already class based. Or other games like Day of Defeat and hundreds of other Half Life mods. That on itself has its background in Quake and Quake 2. The way it's being told in this video, makes it really sound TF2 was first in this. Which is historically not true.

[@guyincognito1406]

History starts at 2007 to them, KZbin popularized then.

[@cleeiii357]

He didnt say TF2 popularize the class-based shooters, he said TF2 started the hero-shooter trend. Since no matter how many would disagree, TF2 leand more towards being a hero-shooter than a class-based shooter despite having classes. Just like how Bleach was an Isekai.

[@averageclonetrooper69420]

2:26 it's funny that you use spectre devide as an example of something new when it is a hero shooter and a "tactical" shooter

[@biggreen1456]

I miss playing as a generic dude, it felt more personal than playing as a clone of some character

[@sicklysweetdenouement]

There is a certain level of magic in seeing interesting and unique characters, only to go straight for the 'Rocket-launcher shotgun guy'. It's simplicity, perfected.

[@TedBilk]

I don't think you actually do lol, I think you miss the feeling you had playing those games

[@Doctor-NOOOOOOOOOOO]

Counter Strike moment

[@sicklysweetdenouement]

@TedBilk idk about big green, but I really do value the guy who eats white bread untoasted. When I load up EDF, I could choose to play the flying laser gun character or the guy that calls an air strike. Or, I pick up a shotgun. It's simple, good fun. Similarly, and not entirely sure if it's coincidence, but many of my favorite games are ones where you don't choose a named character you just play. TF2, Garden Warfare (kinda), Insurgency: Sandstorm, all good fun.

[@reizhu3318]

BASED PALADINS PLAYER fr it deserves more love its just so hard convince ppl to play it when it still has so many bugs but i swear its a really fun and unique game😭

[@gustavomarcondes3908]

We don't hate them. We hate the bad ones.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Any truers

[@agentoranj5858]

So you hate them?

[@gustavomarcondes3908]

@@agentoranj5858 if Them = Hero Shooters then no. If them = bad hero shooters then yes

[@undefinedhuman7404]

speak for yourself lmao

[@bencarlson4300]

This is true for literally everything, no genre is inherently bad

[@BudgiePanic]

Titanfall 2, battlefield 4, R6S for its first 3 years, counter strike: I was there man, and it ruled

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Release day Titanfall 2 was special

[@aperson4097]

He did Marvel Rivals a bit dirty in this video, the game seems to have many aspects of what he was talking about in the solution's portion. Every character feels busted in their own way, with so much freedom that doesn't get locked down by their class. Tanks that have insane mobility, supports that have crazy damage potential, etc. Not to mention that each character is guaranteed to be known and loved since yknow, it's MARVEL.

[@NightWatchGaming47]

I hate that even COD has hero/named characters. I preferred just being a nameless soldier fighting in the ruins of a city.

[@Skinned_fried_n_cut_up_potato]

21:00 I know not everyone is going to get it but I loved the engineer joke

[@raparekkuli]

0:58 ngl dirty bomb was really good

[@mobius5206]

I miss that game so much

[@4zureSapphire]

People were excited for Overwatch 2's PvE when it was first announced. People wanted customization for their favorite heroes where their abilities were augmented to do so many crazy things. It was a step in the right direction that players had wanted. Now, its a pipe dream. The biggest things I see wrong with hero shooters and multiplayer games is that they limit themselves in scope because they have to be careful about balance of the game. Destiny 2 may not count but it has 3 different classes with unique abilities and element combinations, each with their own unique playstyles and each one could trivialize certain encounters in the game or become cheese in PvP. Same things can or have happened to current hero shooters like Overwatch 2 with its goats meta or Mauga. Its a big shift in what was supposed to be fun turned into a competitive environment and culture that has been cultivated since League became the first recognizable E-sport. People cry for fun when they want balance. but its near impossible to have or make fun when it comes at the cost of balance. Fortnite has seen this in the past back in Chapter 1 when it was still trying to bring people in.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

It's astounding how badly Overwatch 2 fumbled the bag.

[@MooseCastle]

Check out Roboquest if you were looking forward to OW2's PvE, it's great.

[@alexxx4434]

Team Fortress as a mod for original Quake might have been the first class based shooter, not Battlefield.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

It's crazy to think most people don't even know about Team Fortress Classic

[@alexxx4434]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op It's crazy that even less people know that another (original) Team Fortress was there before Team Fortress Classic (which was a mod for Half-Life). All by the same devs. It's kind of weird that most people seemed to ignore the number 2 in TF2, which could imply that there are previous installments.

[@Nonname_From_The_Internets]

​@@alexxx4434 it is like DOTA 2 and GTA 5

[@tylerbacoka4248]

correct it was.

[@egoalter1276]

Exatly how Defnce of the Ancients was a custom map for Warcraft 3, based on an even earlyer custom map for Starcraft.

[@Thph793]

Realesing this right now where Strinova (basicly valorant but with a unique 3d to 2d ability for everyone) just came out is insane

[@LotusReal]

There is literally no other option available, like what else am I supposed to play, its like going to the only restaurant in town where the only option is Pizza, complaining, and then having the bar staff tell you "Well you ordered the Pizza didn't you so what's the problem lol??".

[@rainer9931]

I completely disagree, I think that there are not enough "hero shooters." This is what happens when a genre gets too popular but not saturated enough. There are not very many good hero shooters, and this leads to the genre being labeled as bad

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

I see

[@nashineworks8318]

No, literally this. I genuinely don't know anybody who has been actively complaining about hero shooters like if that's a bad thing if anything that actually perks people's ears up I don't know what this guy was on.

[@TYR1139]

Nah, those games are for teenage girls.

[@ThunderHOWL16]

you got it backwards, the reason there are not many good ones is because the genre is BAD

[@themavrandbrickashaw5511]

Nobody would play more of them tho

[@Mikuroko69]

I dont think audience fatigue happened due to the hero shooter. I think it was due to the live service model that every game has done nowadays. We want something new and complete. Thats why games like elden ring and balder's gate did so well. It was new and felt like a complete game. Nearly every fps game (and not just hero shooters) are now live service. Live Service games are just updating the game for the sake of it and eventually ruins their own game via balance and/or lack of rewards. Which in turn making the game feel less and less complete. Nothing will change gameplaywise for months and the shop will only change where everything is overpriced, and theres no progress rewards. This is what creates "audience fatigue" in my opinion. Nobody wants to play a game where they're rewarded with nothing for playing.

[@Maxler5795]

my favourite hero shooter are fighting games.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Real

[@Marlin-]

Battlefield Heroes.. I don't think I'll ever forget the whistle of the main song.

[@georgeghleung]

Anyone that say everythign is hero shooter, extraction shooter, or battle royale: Shall I introduce you to The Finals?

[@itryen7632]

16:20 Use a calculator.

[@DavelTheAwesomenes]

HAHAHA i was looking for a comment about this. i was like "no way they're using chatgpt for this"

[@shashanksangaru4827]

And then, lo! Like a Promethean giant, Gaben opened the gates of Valve and delivered us salvation! The genres MOBA and Shooter were wed into the messianic hybrid child that only the progeny of two pillars of gaming would become. With a vaunted bloodline that stretches all the way to the Source, our Hero of the Hero shooters burst forth from the grips of NDA and secrecy and shone upon us! Mark these days, in late 2024, for our time of suffering will close and a glorious age will begin anew! Praise our champion, Deadlock! Or not, this company did also make Artifact....

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

If anybody could do it's valve

[@MrRafagigapr]

Artifact was a card game where you pay real money for ALL CARDS after buying the game itself, they just alienate most people trying the game by placing a 100 dollar wall in front of them before they even know if they like it

[@nikidelvalle]

I think it's pretty obvious why the hero shooter is so ubiquitous in an era where every game wants to be a live service. New hero releases drive people to regularly reengage with the game if they stop playing and are highly marketable in general. Not all of these qualities are bad, it's a good way to keep talented artists employed and working when the art team would generally be downscaled between releases, and giving all of the heroes defined playstyles gets people attached to their favorite characters. Having set factors also makes a game easier to balance and more competitive. In the end, the problem isn't hero shooters, it's the ubiquity of live services as a whole. Everyone wants a slice of the pie but people only have limited time to play video games, every game can't be a live service people don't have the bandwidth for that garbage, but these publishers keep trying to make it happen anyway.

[@Turret09]

"that's right, he solves practical problems" fucking really funny to me for some stupid reason.

[@jefftheindianchief8279]

It's like they forgot the satisfaction of customizing characters & their loadouts in shooters, and no, skins for "established characters" do not count as customization of a character you've personally created. The quintessential example that comes to mind is Fall of Cybertron, where you choose between classes, abilities, transformations, weapons, etc. I had a blast with that kind of stuff back in the day.

[@ducasse8473]

Damn i didnt know black myth wukong was a shooter.

[@StarboyAngel]

me neither

[@jijidu69]

Wukong using an AK was a pretty crazy departure from the original story.

[@capolean2902]

also had an arp rifle

[@georgigeorgiev2451]

Moba wasnt spawned by league of legends nor popularized by it, it all started with Warcraft 3 Dota allstars which spawned all other moba and while LoL was one of the first along with HoN, LoL was not even close to being popular at all, Heroes of Newerth was outshining LoL for atleast 2 years even though you had to pay to play, then after that there were games like Bloodline champions, Realm of the titans, Smite, Strife and so on, after all these games happened it was around at that time that League started getting popular, so your information is incorrect, you cannot go and say that it popularized the moba genre, its completely untrue. In fact moba genre died when League started getting popular, because along with Dota 2 and maybe smite/hots companies had abandoned the mission to create yet another moba game because they couldnt compete with LoL nor dota2.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

This whole paragraph is wrong.

[@georgigeorgiev2451]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op You are literally lying your own audience when you dont know what you are talking about.

[@Cradien]

If you wanna be an asshole about it then technically it started with the StarCraft map Aeon of Strife

[@georgigeorgiev2451]

@@Cradien I know that very well and i agree, technically thats the whole truth, but overall AoS dont have that much in common with the current moba genre. Also its not about being an asshole, hes just talking lies, or rather he thinks he knows the history of moba by saying it got popularized by LoL which is far away from the real history.

[@Monte_Carlo451]

​@@TheCouch-Co-Op my brother in Christ, you use chatgpt to calculate the game combination. Dota started moba and lol tried to copy and water down the hell of it. Go ask chatgpt on how to get your head out of your ass

[@StuartFknLil]

Never will agree with the "too many hero shooters" sentiment. I only think of Overwatch & Paladins and I've overplayed those. R6 & Valorant is CS:GO, Apex is Battle Royale, and now Deadlock is League or Dota. I genuinely want something else to play that is an actual hero shooters and not just hero characters in a slow paced genre or giant br map

[@Joshua_Uwadiae]

So you're basically talking about Hero "Arena" shooters

[@RggBXD]

"TF2 has unique voice actors for every character" My mind:"MEEEDIIIIIIC"

[@BobFrankerino]

The main problem with having a bunch of abilities that you can choose from, no matter what character/skin you are using, is that it's unpredictable. Just like how when you have too many characters it would get overwhelming for average players to understand what everybody does, except worse, because now they can't associate the ability to anything like pathfinder having zips, or widow maker being a sniper. While it would be fun to choose from a list of abilities, combine them how you'd like, and look the way you'd like, for the average person just coming from a 9-5, it sadly wouldn't really work.

[@ucankushincorporations1318]

I think you're kinda over exaggerating, we didn't have a proper hero shooter until last month for many years. I mean yeah cod and bf2042 also has heroes, but I wouldn't even know about them as I only ply bf4 or maybe bf1

[@capolean2902]

cod has operators with no abilities, 2042 is a hero/class based shooter.

[@supershotgun6921]

I've played Marvel Rivals' beta and it was a breath of fresh air as an OW player. Legitimately the balance team of OW is killing its game and making not fun to play by having tanks be unkillable and supports do more dmg than dps aswell as a crap ton of healing. Not to mention the 5v5 format and its issues. Marvel Rivals has 6v6, true skill expression with heros like spiderman and Black Panther, and feels fun. There is definitely some issues the devs might need to solve later on, but they have shown they prioritize community feedback, which gives me hope it will do well.

[@KamiSanzo]

I can't recall a single person talking about diversity when overwatch launched and praising it for it

[@StateOfTheMind11225]

You weren't there for Tumblr and Twitter then.

[@MyNamesHunter75]

There were many? Hell a lot of people were excited to see their countries even represented as a hero this was extremely common

[@Tyler-V3NA]

What i liked about apex when i played (S1-8) was that it was a hero shooter that was based more around its gunplay than the hero abilities, so you could play whoever you wanted without being fully punished for it bc you could still run meta guns

[@GETJILTED]

Lvlcap personally hyped up like 3 different hero shooters. Everybody was too concerned about whether or not they could "kill cod" they never stopped to ask if they should

[@Gr00t]

I absolutely LOVED overwatch when it released. Hard grinded the first like 4 seasons of ranked. Haven't enjoyed a single hero shooter since.

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

I actually really enjoyed OW2 when it came out. Sucks how it went.

[@ShingoKirishima1997]

I played TF2 back in the day, but it never stuck to me because I suck at the game. I don't really play Hero Shooters anymore because I've been focusing more on single player titles since most of my friends only really play Fornite or other games I have no interest in. The best thing I love about the Hero Shooter trend is the diversity. As a Mexican male, I love Mexican characters getting added to these games. Reaper, Sombra, Goyo, hell MWII added Alejandro and Valeria into MP with Season 3.

[@Snowmaninadesert]

one thing that still angrys me is the fact that overwatch has a map in iraq yet no Iraqi characters

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

People act like the diversity aspect doesn't matter. Couldn't be any more wrong.

[@ShingoKirishima1997]

@@TheCouch-Co-Op in OG Modern Warfare 2 from 2009, Militia was the only Latino representation in the game. And they were Brazilian. In Modern Warfare II (2022) there's both Alejandro and Valeria on both sides of the conflict. And getting represented feels good because these characters do my country justice

[@GameFreak64101]

Pyro is Mexican In fact there is a lot of Mexican representation in TF2

[@GameFreak64101]

Before you ask I have a Cholo Scout Mexican Soldier Multiple Mexican Pyros coming down to Stereotypes, a Zoot Suit, and a Quezalcoatl Demoman being a tourist in Mexico Luchador Heavy Old Mexican Engineer I love it

[@julio.dealmeidabranconeto5831]

No, not every game that comes out is a lot shooter In fact, they're the minority. Maybe you should diversify your game selection...

[@tristenrichards5921]

For those of you wondering what the number is for the number of siege games. It's 190,006,194,609 or over 190 billion. Explanation if you want it: I figured this out using pascal's triangle because you take the number of things you can pick from (36 characters), and the number of things you get to pick (5 characters on a team). Take the first number (36) and add 1, that's the row of pascal's triangle you use. and take the second number (5) and add 1 and that's the number on that row that you use (435,897). Square this number because each team has to be multiplied by each other to get the total number of games and you get the number above that I don't care to copy paste despite doing this. Good day.

[@JJGamer-y5i]

"This sucks" - scout tf2

[@goldengamer1379]

Every game is not a hero shooter that just the only games you play there are other types of games lol

[@bluedealer]

Thats why i and thousands of other ppl play Counter Strike Source and 1.6, no lootboxes, no skins, no battle pass, no heroes, no "store" to buy skins and shit, just you, your gun and your skills. Simple

[@ipatchymakouli415]

I'm kinda happy having grown with RTS games and still playing them, it's a nice escape from this brainrot. But I think I get your point still; I feel like shooters are all about using abilities (at the right time?), be it for information, big explosions or backstabbing. Sure looks flashy... But is this really competition/proving you're a better player? The good old 1v1 deagle only is long dead.

[@VolkanKucukemre]

And then Valve did it again...

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Valve, King of Gaming

[@Jonathan-xj9ny]

​@damsen978 cry about it

[@SupremeLoverAngel16]

​@damsen978Cry

[@MrRafagigapr]

​@damsen978found the guy who is mad concord is shutting down

[@niersu]

@damsen978 First of all it's very early access everything is subject to change. Second it's nothing like Fortnite. They went for gameplay first as it should be, it's really fun already.

[@carlosbig2946]

the issue with the “there’s too many combinations” argument is also metas. which usually make it to where you’re playing into the same characters most matches.

[@АртёмТор-к2ю]

10:10 no it wasn't. Blizzard payed to be covered

[@Lyra_dragonal]

Don't forget about paladins as well 8:07

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Everybody loves Paladins

[@psygreg]

You were actually generous about the possible matchups for Siege being above a billion. It's actually 142,880,664,064.

[@scrittle]

Imagine AI being wrong. Don't need to imagine it, it usually is.

[@even6978]

bro there are games like the ones you describe you want you just aren't playing them

[@Zzero0o0o0o]

This is why ive been so obsessed with the finals, its new, refreshing it has relatively good customization, every choice in you loadout matters, and above all else, its fun.

[@Andre-vt4np]

Wow what a waste of 20 mins

[@TinyLadyKris]

every game is a hero shooter?? do you play games that aren't hero shooters?

[@flawed1]

But see you’re supposed to know that isn’t literally true, so it’s not their fault for writing a factually untrue title, it’s your fault for pointing it out…. that’s KZbin logic these days

[@blackomega34]

It's called hyperbole you nerds

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Yes. I played some Dirt Rally 2.0 the other day.

[@tornadophantom4027]

​@@blackomega34 It's not hyperbole. It's just wrong. Cod isn't a hero shooter. Splitgate 2 isn't a hero shooter. Xdefiant, Payday 3, The Finals etc. And that's not even mentioning non shooter games. Even examples he uses IN THIS VIDEO aren't hero shooters. Valorent is a tactical shooter. Apex is a battle royale. Despite the fact that they have characters with abilities, they play completely different from actual hero shooters. Apex is obviously not the same as Overwatch or Marvel Rivals. There have been a few hero shooters, sure. But that's not even close to the majority of games coming out. There have only been three hero shooters that people actually play: Overwatch, Paladins, and Marvel Rivals. And again, that's not accounting for games that aren't shooters. We just got a dragon ball moba and another dragon ball game is coming next month. Astro Bot is coming out next month. Epic Mickey, The Casting of Frank Stone, Space Marine 2 etc. "Every game is a hero shooter now" is not a hyperbole. It's just stupid and wrong.

[@mortis5551]

​@tornadopi i think with hero shooter he means games that have heroes in them which have different special abilitys. And these games suck tbh.

[@freezeflame1]

Here's that Valorant video I wanted :(

[@sketchysketchu]

The monkey's paw curled

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Don't speak too soon friend

[@westinritter233]

Don't use LLms for math you got 36 attackers of which you choose 5 so you have P(36,5) = 376992 possible attack teams , you also have 36 defenders of which you choose five so you also have 376992 possible defender teams. You then pick one attack team out of the possible attack teams and pair it with one defender team out of the possible defender teams thus there are 376992 x 376992 = 142122968064 possible match ups. example: we have teams of 2 and three attack operators A B C and three defenders E F G, thus we have P(3,2) = 3 possible attack teams {A,B} {A,C} {B,C} as well as defense teams {E,F} {E,G} {F,G}. We then make match ups by picking 1 attack team and 1 defense team thus 3 x 3 = 9 match ups : {A,B} vrs {E,F} , {A,B} vrs {E,G} , {A,B} vrs {F,G} {A,C} vrs {E,F} , {A,C} vrs {E,G} , {A,C} vrs {F,G} {B,C} vrs {E,F} , {B,C} vrs {E,G} , {B,C} vrs {F,G}

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

ty

[@MoxieCatte]

I am surprised no one ever brings up COD Black Ops 3 multiplayer when hero shooters are being discussed, that came out a year before Overwatch and was the predecessor to the genre in my eyes at least. You chose a "specialist" and could equip either their unique special weapon or special ability before going into a match, which would then slowly charge over time with kills on enemy players lowering that charge time. Sort of like Overwatch but if you ONLY had your ultimate. I remember there being a Russian sniper lady who could choose between an explosive bow-and-arrow or a wallhack, for example.

[@AModlyCat]

tf2 just being here like why is everyone dying around us

[@neoncat3041]

1:20 What if I could combine... Bro that's literally straight up The Finals you are describing over there

[@TheCouch-Co-Op]

Wait really? Teleport?

[@Lightning_aus]

I dont mind overwatch. Valorant is kind of annoying but meh. What really pisses me off is iconic game franchises like Battlefield and COD turning into hero shooters, which is something literally NO ONE WANTS. It distances the hardcore fanbase while only attracting a handful of new players who play for 10 hours then never touch the game again. (EA and BF2042 I'm looking at you).

[@StarboyAngel]

now a days too many games want to copy valorant and overwatch to make money like riot