Everything Missing From Fantasy (there's a lot😅)

[@morleywritesbooks]

When a fellow writer told me "you have to write your book more like a movie" i remember looking him dead in the eye and saying "that might be the worst piece of advice anyone has ever tried to give me" because i really like the moments of characters just interacting with each other or the settings, or taking a moment to reflect -- and you don't get that in movies

[@raymondsmith6870]

That would be the Micheal Crichton school of writing.

[@kit888]

Try Before Sunrise, Locke, Lost in Translation, Girl with a Pearl Earring, Sex Lies and Videotape, EX Machina, Children of Men, Solaris (1972)

[@RolandIronfist13]

You haven't seen Good Will Hunting and it shows.

[@defiantaichi]

No, I mean, the writer maybe did mean stories that dont have any slow moments. But there are tons of great movies that slow down in places. And to good effect. Not all movies are fast paced with constant action on screen.

[@morleywritesbooks]

@@defiantaichi that's true, not all movies. But the full context was: the implication being to keep the pace going faster and faster and the stakes need to constantly be high. But writing a book vs writing a movie script are fundamentally different, which was something he argued against, insisting they're interchangeable. If that were so, then adaptations would be verbatim from the source material, but things get cut out due to time constraints among other things. He stated that the things cut out were already unnecessary and i still whole heartedly disagree with that notion. Also, thank you for opening up a dialogue rather than leave a condescending comment. I really do appreciate it 😊

[@annmoore321]

I don’t agree with you. Making someone genuinely good can be realistic. There are men and women I know in real life who fit firmly into that category. Does that mean they don’t have weaknesses or flaws? No! But they consistently strive to do what is right, and fix mistakes they make when they can. More heroes and heroines who take the high road in fiction would be refreshing for sure!

[@libraryofaviking]

Good point!

[@Hello-hello-hello456]

That has been the norm for a looong time for heroes.

[@black-aliss]

The difference might be not in individual character, but in choices presented realistically in a given setting. Just because a given universe is brutal, doesn't make a character less than good. You have to be realistic about these things.

[@maggiepfob]

I agree! Worlds/stories/genres where absolutely everyone turns out to have a secret, dark agenda to cause harm to others or a dark addiction that causes them to hurt everyone and everything around them, are anything but realistic. In the real world, most people are mostly good. And I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool cynic! Everyone has flaws, but true villains are actually quite rare (despite what the news tries to teach us!)

[@fluffy_walrus]

I agree, genuinely good characters can be very realistic and interesting. They can have flaws and weaknesses, and they can fail or be put in positions that might force them to fall short of their principles, and subsequently that character exploration oftentimes winds up to be very compelling as they seek to regain their self image.

[@kampover]

As I'm getting older, I also wish there were more heroes at least over 25.

[@MicukoFelton]

it's really annoying to me when a character is supposed to be 17 but acts 30. just make them 30 in the first place.

[@wrennie1532]

lim writing one soon. A man in his 39's is the main character. A plague has spread across the land, and while there is a cure, nobody has access to it because only one country has access to the plant used to make it is greedy and selling it at insane prices. When his wife comes down with it, he will do anything to save her

[@cedricburkhart3738]

I don't understand why.🤔 What do's the hero being older do for the story? You might just not notice when they are older. But a lot of them are written for young adults or adolescence of the characters are usually in that age range.🤔

[@markd3250]

@@cedricburkhart3738 Heroes being older add a more mature, seasoned personality who acts and reacts like people with many years of experience do.

[@orirune3079]

Same! And any character over 40 is often treated like they're some ancient wizened old sage, even when the author is older themself.

[@outintheuniverse97]

Most readers complaining about these kind of things should check out a wider range of authors writing fantasy there's something for everyone regardless of preferences.

[@watcherofthewest8597]

Most of what is missing from modern fantasy is good writing...go back into last half century, especially short stories. There is so much out there that needs to be rediscovered

[@outintheuniverse97]

@@watcherofthewest8597 Less copying and a little more originality would be nice too.

[@xiiir838]

​@@outintheuniverse97too risky. might not get published if they deviate too much from what's popular

[@zoinksscoob6523]

@@xiiir838 the most tragic state of writing nowadays

[@gigachadgaming1551]

Nuh uh, if it doesn’t exist on book tok, it doesn’t exist at all

[@wherespookie1]

Grimdark can't claim to be nuanced and realistic when basically every character is a piece of shit and there's a constant oppressive force of nihilism that pervades the genre. I've gained a much better sense and insight into human behavior through "simple" and "basic" representations of good and evil in classic fantasy than I ever have in anything grim dark. Samwise Gamgee said it best: "There's good in this world Mr. Frodo, and it's work fighting for".

[@jessiedugan3187]

I just found out a few people think the opposite of grim dark is Noble-bright. And the corner stone for that genre is the lord of the rings. Plus at wondercon I dressed as a hobbit.

[@jamesgordley5000]

Modern grimdark tends to be written by people far too comfortable/sheltered to have any actual idea what “realistic” is, let alone what “morally complex” is. Therefore, they have zero capacity to put themselves in the shoes of someone from that setting, leading to the problem with their writing that you just mentioned.

[@szymonlechdzieciol]

​@@jessiedugan3187id say LOTR is way to melancholic and sad to count as noblebright. Nobletwilight id say

[@bzzzzzzzzzz2075]

Grimdark is catharsis smut, not realism. And like, it's a good thing it exists(who doesn't like themselves a good dystopian hellpit every now and then?), but also let's not kid ourselves that it's realistic. Sure, real life is gritty and gross and morbid, and a lot of people are either secretly or outwardly awful, but even in the worst of times in the absolute worst of places, people, idk, have fun being stupid with friends. That's why the 40k universe (the namesake of Grimdark. it's sci fi not fantasy but give me a break. There's basically wizards) works. Its setting is so extreme and oppressive (planetary genocides being a mundanity) that it can't be read as anything BUT parodical. Its nuance lies with its tongue-in-cheek portrayal of evil and war and etc, not in its flawless accuracy re: the complete human condition

[@maggiepfob]

Gotta agree with this. If you're being all "grimdark" because it's "more realistic" I have to wonder what kind of world you live in. In my world yes, there are bad people. There are good people who have minor flaws. But most individual humans I know are basically good and doing their best and I've never met more than one or two who have some hidden, malevolent agenda. That's individual humans, I mean. GROUPS of humans, from political parties to religions to charities, if they have existed for more than five minutes, have all become corrupt and run by evil humans.

[@HobbiesofaMan]

Sounds like people on r/Fantasy just need to read more comics, light novels, manga and older pulp books. I read a bit of everything from everywhere and I never feel like I can't find what I want.

[@thatweirdpersononyoutube835]

I feel the same ive recently gotten into books again. Some stories are cool but they aren't what I'm looking for.

[@SickegalAlien]

Hard + on the part about older pulp fantasy. Readers my age (late 20s) for some reason think that reading more recent books is somehow more relevant. I don't want to disparage modern authors here. I'm just saying that good literature is timeless and my generation kinda forgot this fact.

[@tyghe_bright]

I want more mature characters, generally. People who have life experience, connections to others (family, friend groups, professional/political connections). Also, more settings that aren't basically medieval Europe, or Victorian Europe, or modern Europe/America. Conflicts that don't rely on people being stupid. It's so much more interesting when a smart character makes good decisions, but it's still not enough to overcome until they learn more and/or connect with the right people.

[@rainbowsomeone]

The Invisible Library series check almost all of these boxes

[@voidboi2831]

delicious in dungeon

[@heybearnation]

Plenty of Asian books out there. 🤷‍♀️

[@voidboi2831]

@@heybearnation usually a majority are in asia though, which comes with a language barrier

[@carneliancaryatid]

Son of the Black Sword by Larry Correia has a non-European foundation.

[@Eluarelon]

regarding the movie comparison, I get that. In the meantime, I've come to recognize that when people call a fantasy novel out for being "slow", chances are that it is actually an exceptional book I will love reading.

[@DivineTech]

Which kind of slow? A slow that builds characters, and suspense? Or a slow that rehashes needless descriptions? Or needless tangents on irrelevant details? Sanderson and Jordan drive me up the wall. Jim Butcher is starting to make me a little crazy too with the needless repeats of description. I’ve started to notice a lot of these “slow” novels feels like author is trying to hit a word count instead of saying anything of interest.

[@Tessa_Ru]

​@DivineTech Personally I think books that leave out the details you complain about feel incredibly shallow. I feel more immersed in the world when you know things about the place they are in, and not just what the characters are specifically doing at the time. I wouldn't accuse any of the authors you've listed as being particularly wordy in their styles either, unless we're comparing them to more YA oriented authors.

[@DivineTech]

@@Tessa_Ru Don’t get me wrong, I love details. They have to do something, help you understand or build lore, like Neal Stephenson. Describing a dresser and what cloths are inside the dresser is quite maddening to me. Jim Butcher I’ll give a couple examples, he’s described Murphy SO. MANY. TIMES. MacAnnaly’s bar is described over and over. Robert Jordan, forgive me the books are fading from memory, how much did he describe Lans cloak? I pick up on those needless repetitions because of how jarring it is for me.

[@Tessa_Ru]

@DivineTech tbh I'll continue the discussion specifically with Jim Butcher, because I've read and reread the books enough lol. First, it makes sense to describe a person or place in each book, because the books started out very episodic, he couldn't guarantee that someone was reading them in order and had already met a character (I myself started on book 3 way back in the day, not aware that it was already a series). Second, when he describes a place multiple times, like returning to the bar, the way he describes it gives a lot of extra info on Harry's state of mind. For example, one time he walks in and talks about the smell of the food and how comfortable the chairs look. Obviously because he is hungry and a little tired. The next time he talks about how dim the lighting is, he doesn't like how few exits are available or how many strangers he sees sitting around. It shows how he's in a much more alert mental state. He's eying exits and feels trapped because he can't see people's faces clearly to judge for potential enemies. These are things that Jim Butcher doesn't TELL us at all, but it's really obvious just by seeing the things that Harry is looking at and thinking about around him. It's totally OK if you don't like that kind of setting based story telling. Sometimes I find it exhausting and I need a more straightforward book. But it's a very clever way to tell us info without spoonfeeding it to readers, and I really enjoy it most of the time.

[@DivineTech]

@@Tessa_RuYou know, those are great points you bring up. I brought up Jim Butcher because I’ve read and reread the whole series and brief cases up to Battlegrounds also lol. I’m waiting for the next book so I can start all over again! On my last read through is when I started noticing him repeating 13 bar stools, 13 ceiling fans to help disperse energy. Great point about people jumping in wherever in the series, never occurred to me people would do that lol. I guess it’s one of those things when you reread something you love, you start noticing little things. For instance Jim has to beat Harry up before he faces him off against the main villain. I get why, but man, I would love to see Harry cut loose when he’s not beat up, tired or otherwise inconvenienced lol. I appreciate the civil discourse 😊

[@hexeldev]

"Can't remember a book where we follow an older female character" => Navani in Rhythm of War, I believe she is around 55-60

[@libraryofaviking]

I have only read up to Oathbringer. Excited for Rhytm of War!

[@maggiepfob]

Whenever I say there are no books with older female main characters, I mean, in the last 2 - 5 years. The period from which we are supposed to pick our Comps, if we expect to get an agent.

[@hexeldev]

@@maggiepfob Rhythm of War is 2020

[@maggiepfob]

@@hexeldev I guess I might take a look at it, but it sounds a bit dark to me. Still. Older character in literature is good.

[@superhunksickle]

That was my first thought too. Too bad rhythm of war is the fourth in the series, haha.

[@MacScarfield]

As for 40+ Female Main Characters, I can recommend “The Bloodsworn Saga” by John Gwynne, where the character of Orka is one of the three main POVs. Also, while not the main POV, Signe the ruler of Arbonne is a POV in Guy Gavriel Kay’s “A Song For Arbonne”!

[@Belkerlos]

He literally mentions this in his video. You should actually watch the video first before commenting instead of trying to get attention by commenting quickly

[@MacScarfield]

@@Belkerlos Indeed he does, though I also wanted to mention “A Song for Arbonne”, where Signe’s POV is short but very poignant. Another example that came to my mind is Tenar, the Main Character of Ursula LeGuin’s “Tehanu” (Earthsea #4). All the best! 😊

[@brandonpowers2480]

Looking this up.

[@sophiehugli2752]

Also the divine cities trilogy

[@doombringer1903]

Unpopular opinion of mine, i apologise but i hate Elvar from the bloodsworn saga

[@ElanorNarmolanya]

I LOVE that you mentioned your desire for more exemplary/present fathers and solid, steady marriages. These are so underused in fantasy! I grow so weary of seeing my favorite ships get married and then inexplicably break up a book later because "marriage is boring" or "nobody wants to read about a steady, healthy relationship. Drama is what the people want." Gosh, maybe more relationships irl would last longer if fiction had more examples of couples who love, fight, forgive, and stick it out together! I also have to argue with the point that non-grimdark stories are less realistic. As others have mentioned, i know many people irl who spend their whole lives striving for good and helping others selflessly. Does that mean they never make mistakes? No, but they're still in the same league as some of the classic fantasy "good guys" in fantasy that people might claim are unrealistic. (Aragorn, Frodo, Gandalf, etc.) And besides, i personally think that when crafting a FANTASY tale in which ANYTHING is possible, why not imagine a world where some people are undeniably good, brave, and noble? Is that really crazier than imagining people swallowing metal and gaining superpowers? 😂 I personally delight in reading about heroes that i can look up to and point out to others as great heroes without having to cringe and explain away dozens of major or minor atrocities that these people were "forced" to commit because they had to be "realistic". So i desperately hope that this classic, optimistic slice of fantasy doesn't ever die!

[@leviosalegolas]

I can't really agree that grimdark is realistic tbh. It does tend to have more nuance than some other genres but in my opinion it's more of a hyper pessimistic version of reality, not an accurate representation of it.

[@RustBrand777]

10:10 it’s not the characters being totally bright or dark that can cause problems, it’s them lacking nuances. Think about someone truly good in your life, they weren’t perfect but they were usually trying to do the good thing and were often recovering from a past of misdeeds or misfortune. Suffering binds us to together, when a character remains good in spite of all that’s happened to them…I love that.

[@kelleyceccato7025]

I happened to meet my soul mate when I was in my mid-30s, and when we tied the knot I was 39, so I'm in hearty agreement with the first complaint. I want to see more romantic plots or subplots in which the characters involved both are and ACT LIKE mature adults. One beautifully realized example appears in Lois McMaster Bujold's "Paladin of Souls." 7:02: "In real life, people are nuanced" -- this is true. However, kindness and empathy also exist in real life. Moral courage also exists in real life. These elements are missing from grimdark. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the heck out of Joe Abercrombie (thanks largely to the superb audiobooks with Steven Pacey's narration), but the real world isn't entirely made up of psychotic Logens, sociopathic Gloktas, rage-aholic Ferros, or narcissistic Jezals. People can be flawed but ultimately good, even heroic. Heroes can be nuanced. 11:02: For this, I can totally recommend Abercrombie's Age of Madness. Judge is reprehensible, but we also see morally gray female characters like Savine, Rikke, and (my favorite) Victarine. A Song of Ice and Fire famously features Cersei Lannister. The best of Mercedes Lackey's Elemental Masters novels, The Serpent's Shadow, The Gates of Sleep, Phoenix and Ashes, and The Wizard of London, all feature disturbingly evil female villains with no traces of gray at all. There are more female villains in fantasy than some may realize, I think. I do tend to Nope away from stories in which ALL the female characters are evil (e.g. Salvatore's Homeland books), but I do like stories in which female characters appear in a variety of spots along the moral spectrum.

[@davidmcculloch7709]

I’ve been married for a long time and I’m super with you! Regarding finding Indy books, the problem is that there are sooo many poorly written Indy books that it makes the really great ones (that are certainly out there) are harder to find.

[@MagusMarquillin]

That's where SPFBO (Self-Published Fantasy Blog-Off) helps greatly - 10 generally competent books selected each year with multiple reviewer judges for contrast - find an indie reviewer you jive with and try something, when you find an author that you love you can read everything they write. There's a backlog of 9 years now, coming on 10 (or independant 100 books). There's a Science Fiction compition a couple years old now too called SPSFC.

[@izmatopia4347]

Try Worthy of the Raven by YL Zamora. It's pretty cool.

[@radmom4612]

I am literally writing something featuring an older female protagonist, thanks for the encouragement in tackling all that crone stuff! Nice to think anyone will be interested in reading it ❤

[@celeben9463]

I think I would.

[@celeben9463]

One of the ways to be timeless is to go places nobody goes. Art is becoming increasingly standardized, so go ahead and don't be afraid!

[@lindenstromberg6859]

YES! I totally agree on the movie thing. This is a big problem in books these days - they read like film scripts converted to novels. They even have the same structures as films. Books in general are much less about style and consciousness than they used to be, and are now far more shallow - it's like everyone is writing books in hopes they'll be converted to a film, rather than writing books like books.

[@jumhed994]

I blame 'Save The Cat'. Formulaic beat sheet writing.

[@Luumus]

For those who are looking for older MC. While the book series A Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brenan, starts off with a younger protagonist, the voice of the MC as an older lady is always present, as she is narrating her life, and by the end of the series they converge into one, where you see this person age into her 40s and beyond. Highly recommend that one, particularly if you are really into science and dragons. There's also T. Kingfisher who sometimes writes books with older female protagonists as well, Swordheart comes to mind. It's quite the sweet, cosy adventure with older main characters.

[@migmit]

I think A Natural History of Dragons is the first book, while the series is called The Memoirs of Lady Trent.

[@jenniferanderson7010]

Terry Pratchett is my favorite author, ever. His Discworld series is just as detailed as any epic fantasy series. He just spent A LOT longer building it up. I always recommend him to people who like fantasy. I liked that whilst his world was super detailed, it was spread out in easily read chunks. His books weren't pulp trash. They always had a message. They always were super high quality. They just were fifteen bajillion pages long, each. I loved how he didn't need to spend sixteen thousand pages describing a village. A very tiny paragraph was always enough to evoke what he was after. We all know what a forest looks like. We don't need a huge descriptor for it.

[@D.KRyley-mq1do]

This is refreshing to hear as a writer. I also use really simple descriptions and have been wondering if it's too simple. My writing style comes from my reading style, where I gloss over the super descriptions because they aren't important and actually detract from the experience. I end up sitting there trying to imagine the very specific scene the writer wants me to instead of focusing on the important parts of the scene. I've heard of Terry Pratchett before but never read anything by him, and now I'll add it to my backlog.

[@jumhed994]

I could've done without his 'messages' tbh. I enjoyed the rest of his work and style, but the quiet lecturing was patronising imo

[@nokeo08]

You keep bringing up realism. I don't read fantasy for realism, I read fantasy for fantasy. I want my characters to be interesting, engaging, and rational. I don't need them to be realistic.

[@chrisperry5365]

Exactly, a fantasy or sf story shouldn't be realistic, it should be convincing

[@Xarfax321]

THANK YOU!!

[@mercylimpokhuwe]

I'm not really sure for this case, but most people use realism and convincing interchangeably. We all read fantasy for the fantastical but it has to make a bit of sense, otherwise you'll find yourself constantly rolling your eyes. Even in fantasy they are rules. If the author breaks the rules of their own universe, it feels unrealistic.

[@ajax1812]

For it to be convincing it has to be a bit realistic, so there is a grounding element.

[@ajax1812]

​@@mercylimpokhuwe That sums it up well.

[@readlikeaman]

My man!!! I love the two items in your wish list! Those are exactly the two things I would say as well. And as someone who’s been married for 14 years and just had my 5 kid, I can confidently say that marriage and kids are the best things in my life. Nothing has made me more of who I am than those things

[@SimplementInefable]

I'd say that Murderbot is absolutely distopyan, under the funny jokes, the future it paints its really distopyan if you stop and think about the world in which Murderbot exists.

[@libraryofaviking]

Good point! It's been a while since I read Murderbot!

[@JeantheSecond-ip7qm]

Well, depending where you are in that universe. The Corporate Rim is dystopian, but Preservation is utopian.

[@migmit]

I think Preservation is like this human city in a zombie apocalypse story. Yes, life there is relatively peaceful, but one misstep and it will be destroyed.

[@brandonpowers2480]

40+ heroine I can get behind and I loved Michael Sullivan's Legends of the First Empire where one of the characters we follow is a 40+ heroine and deals with romance, and how romance might be different at that age than when she was younger.

[@victorcruz1749]

One of my favorite female badass, Misaki from The Sword of Kaigen. Probably the epitome of female badasses as she was a great fighter and fought through marriage difficulties and tragedy. (Don't want to give out spoilers)

[@franglais-riders]

My main problem with modern fantasy / Sci-Fi etc is that nothing is just a single book. Everything is now a series of at least 5, 10 or even 15 books or more. It is like those series that never end. The plot keeps getting more and more insane and usually the end disappoint or does not make sense. Also I don’t want to commit to a 10 or 20 books series, I might be dead long before it ends. Those writers just seem to get like tenure for life. I can cope with a trilogy but more is just filling for filling sake. A long term money making scheme I find. And I just don’t have the attention span. I started a series years ago from Brandon Sanderson but just gave up once I realised it was one of those never ending stories and it will take him 20 years to wrap it up.

[@Mister_Sosotris]

I feel like fantasy can feel samey IF the reader is only going by what books are available at big book stores. There’s a TON of amazing sci fi and fantasy out there both trad and indie, that you have to look a bit more to find. I had to special order Rebecca Roanhorse’s Mirrored Heavens from my local bookstore because it wasn’t something they were going to order on release day. So there is good stuff out there!

[@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels]

Always amuses me when everyone reading the same tiny fraction of fantasy books complain about the deficits of the genre, while refusing to step out of bubble of said fraction to find the ones that are actually doing all the things they claim to want. Also, I run a channel where I cover a lot of fantasy doing a lot of the things the people in these comments claim to want, and I have the channel stats to prove almost no one cares about those books 😂 I can think of a number of different picks that match most of these asks offhand - they're just backlist books and hence not of interest to most readers.

[@run_conquer_prevail_9189]

I’m totally checking out your channel now! 😁

[@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels]

@@run_conquer_prevail_9189 Lol, thanks, hopefully you find something to pique your interest!

[@libraryofaviking]

Hi mate! Thanks for the comment and keep up the good work! I tried emailing you recently but it didn't go through. Could you please contact me? :)

[@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels]

@@libraryofaviking Messaged you on Discord whenever you're ready!

[@libraryofaviking]

​@@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels Can you drop me an email on [e-mail] , please?

[@adamradley4016]

What are you saying at 5:20 ? I can't understand it but would like to check out the classic you're recommending.

[@patrickmaybe2197]

replying to this comment for if you ever get a response cuz I’m curious too

[@glehman84]

@@patrickmaybe2197googled the words I could make out and it’s “Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn” by Tad Williams, looks interesting and I feel seen by this question cuz I was curious too, happy reading 🤙

[@dougsundseth6904]

For fantasy with older protagonists, happy marriages, and good parenting, you might take a look at Bujold's World of Five Gods stories (Chalion and the Penric & Desdemona novellas). The characters are sympathetic and well-written (it is Bujold, after all), and the stories are well-crafted and engaging.

[@juanperret7044]

Dystopia is honestly just a matter of perspective. Like for us in the west if we were forced to live in a Congolese mine we would think we're in a dystopia. So a future setting being a dystopia or not is more of a perspective from a certain setting. A lot of the people in this planet without access to books if they had read them they would think it was tame by comparison of what they go through

[@MalinVestergren]

Becky Chamers isn't the author of Murderbot, I think you meant to say Martha Wells :)

[@sariahd5083]

Just read "Just Stab Me Now" by Jill Bearup, which had an older protagonist. Widowed with two children and an author who kept trying to arrange things for her. Light-hearted and quite enjoyable.

[@maggiepfob]

Huh, I never would have picked that book up, based on the title. It sounds like just another book where no good magic is allowed to happen to anyone over 13. Based on your recommendation, I'll ... well, at least I'll take a look at the back cover blurb!

[@eowynsisterdaughter]

​@@maggiepfob It's based off Jill Bearup's "Fantasy Heroine" KZbin series, so you can take a look at those short videos to get a good idea of what the book is about. I had quite a good time with the story, lots of snide humor mixed in with earnest character reactions, well balanced.

[@iggydaking9117]

1. Good writing.

[@diggeroldmate8122]

It's an industry unfortunately. Unless you your book is called 'something - something - Dragon' you don't get much traction.

[@runningcommentary2125]

A thing of something and something else.

[@diggeroldmate8122]

@@runningcommentary2125 haha yep

[@Adailyy_]

​@@runningcommentary2125 A bowl of Mac and cheese

[@theimaginarium]

Married 34 years now. Still the best decision I've ever made. Couldn't agree more with you about fathers, too. I'd love to see more of those things and I've incorporated them into my own fantasy novel King of the Forgotten Darkness. Great video, thanks

[@ZachDavis79]

For 40+ aged heroines there is The Broken Earth Trilogy

[@jayhowden2933]

40+ heroines in fantasy? Look no further than the Witches in Discworld - Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg!

[@Fantasychick950]

I recently finished "Mother of the Fallen: A Reforged Story," currently in the SPFBOX competition run by Mark Lawrence. The protagonist is a badass female detective in her thirties, and she encounters the most horrendous situations I’ve ever read. Think a combination of "Dante's Inferno" the video game, "Constantine," and a dash of "Se7en." This urban fantasy, infused with horror elements, led me to explore J.R. Manga's other book, which blend sci-fi, horror, and fantasy. His unique style, inspired by the darker aspects of manga it seems, is a refreshing take on the genre. Definitely an indie author to watch!

[@Artistic_Escape350]

That and Magenta Skies: Rise of the Berserkers are hidden indie gems! I read them on Netgalley. So glad the author has entered this years SPFBO.

[@QueenSiv]

Incredibly real on the father representation and happy marriage representation omg

[@smeastwest]

I agree about the lack of a positive male lead. So I'm writing one! The second book in a trilogy, I have a wonderful man as a main character; sweet, hard-working, good husband, excellent father. And as for a story that is futuristic but not dystopian--my mother is writing one! It also has a to-die-for romance between actual adults. It's so great to know that other people are jonesing for the same kind of stories that we want.

[@astevenswrites]

Lol, you had me laughing along with you on the "pulp fantasy" comment. I could see this being kinda fun though... something heavily stylized, reminiscent of things like Sin City, but in a fantasy world, with some grimdark elements. But besides that, I can agree with many of the other wants. And I know there is a LOT already out there, but it can be hard to find them. As far as "mainstream" fantasy goes, does seem like these are rarer finds.

[@chorihae2934]

"Nettle and Bone" by T. Kingfisher is exactly the type of 30+ tired princess tries to save her sister fantasy book that is in addition incredibly funny and wholesome while being eerie too!

[@bluejayblaze1180]

I feel validated by so many of these. It seems there's a market for my non-grimdark epic fantasy where the main character's father is a good guy trying to help his heroic son and one of the main "party members" (because I think in D&D terms while writing) is a 70+ year old granny who will absolutely commit all the crimes in the name of keeping her grandsons safe.

[@leazekrom5538]

8:19 Well, A Day of Fallen Night by Samantha Shannon (Author of the Priory of the Orange Tree) has two main female characters over 50+ who experiences romance, lots of growth despite their more mature age, and I felt so passionate about their adventure! It was my favorite book of 2023, but the lenght of the book can bea flaw to new readers haha (almost 1000 pages).

[@thecomicreadern4344]

I want more books with pace like tad Williams or Hobb or even abercrombie,just many pages of us soaking in the world and the characters And next would be long novels,like planned out huge series like malazan or wheel of time

[@iggydaking9117]

I haven't tried it yet, but The Wars of Light and Shadow by Janny Wurts might fall under those two categories. It has the beautiful prose and slow pace of Hobb's and Williams' work, with the complexity and depth of Malazan.

[@superhunksickle]

Have you read Stormlight Archive? It's unfinished (4 books out of 10 out) but will fit the second criteria and, in my opinion, fits the first criteria too! Lots of intrigue and tons of cultures to be seen and explored, especially as the books go on

[@ithrahmunchswallow468]

Sword of Kaigan is a brilliant example of a strong mature female.

[@hope2dust]

For Hillbert, I am currently writing a cosmic horror/epic fantasy, as I have been dismayed by the lack of horror stories set in high fantasy worlds as well. So I'll do it myself. But don't worry. No vampires or werewolves in this universe. It's archaic and grim. Add some dragons and colossal beasts. Multiple magic systems, rich lore, lots of different religions and cultures, and all the political intrigue you wish to dine on. And with the backdrop of a high fantasy war between eldritch gods, this isn't just a battle against a random dark lord. There are many villains ranging from doomsday cults with wicked intent, rivaling kingdoms who draw steel over magical resources, and dark gods with incomprehensible motivations. All the hallmarks of cosmic horror: madness, paranoia, forbidden knowledge, the feeling of insignificance in the face of terrors beyond mortal comprehension. Think ASoIaF meets Lovecraft, but sprinkle in some Stephen King, and Tolkien also. Big sprawling narrative, lots of moving parts, world-ending stakes. I expect this will tick most of the boxes you're looking for. I even wrote in battle nuns and a peg-legged dragon named Gaxkaen the Warbringer. It's gonna be sick. 🤣 Just have to finish writing/editing book 1. Keep an eye out early-mid next year for 'Blood of the Wraithbane' from the World-Breaker Saga. With the crap getting published recently, it should be a breath of fresh air for true fans of the high fantasy genre, and hopefully will attract some horror junkies too.

[@traceymayhewauthor]

Samantha Shannon’s book A Day of Fallen Night features a couple of older women, not sure of their ages but I would say 40ish. It’s a really good book as well and, if memory serves, most of the characters in there are women of varying ages

[@Emily-vk8gw]

Kushiels Legacy series. It has a well established romance that you get to see grow over twenty years. And the second trilogy of the set sees those characters as parental figures

[@burnsteinz6]

I agree with married stories would be great. I think what I would love though, is what happens 'after' the main story. After the hero saves the world, I want the 'boring' stuff after. Idk why, I just want a simple drama of how the hero settles down and has kids etc etc. Less world ending stories, more stories what happened after the world was saved. I think that would be interesting.

[@ChillCollins616]

Empire of a vampire is bad ass, regardless of it having vamps...

[@lorifrederick2367]

I'm reading that now! Loving it.

[@t.t.greenshaw]

Read the first chapter and it gripped me from the outset...such immersive writing!

[@ChillCollins616]

@@t.t.greenshaw Absolutely!

[@JediHobbit89]

While it's a short story/novella, "Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell" by Brandon Sanderson would check off two boxes addressed: it's got a middle aged female protagonist and has strong horror elements. It was my favorite story in the Arcanum Unbounded anthology.

[@TheresaReichley]

I want two things. First, I want books where the people in those novels think and act like people living in the eras and settings in which they were placed. A medieval knight is not going to think like a modern liberal raised in a democracy. An ancient Chinese duke does not think like a modern American. A person raised in a world full of magic should not think like a modern materialist. Second, I want worlds that are not reskinned medieval Europe with a twist. The world is a very wide place. Why not set a story in Arabia, India, China, the Americas, even Russia could be interesting. The options are endless both in technological levels and in settings and mythology.

[@quantumvideoscz2052]

A future that isn't dystopian, you say? Honestly, I have only really seen it done once. Star Trek. Not fantasy, obviously, but that's about the only properly not-dystopian future I know of in fiction.

[@captainsirk1173]

I don’t like sex. I want more wholesome, relatively uncomplicated romantic subplots that don’t drag me into all of somebody’s most intimate moments. I LIKE the way Brandon Sanderson does romance. For the most part. Warbreaker was kinda weird.

[@bjornh4664]

I'm far from a prude, but detailed sex scenes tend to cheapen many stories.

[@bdb757]

​@bjornh4664 I feel, with my limited experience, that those scenes have no value and are overused. I loved 4th wing but didn't like the sex scenes so I skipped them and they didn't effect the story and didn't have alot of them but I read this vampire/werewolf one were there was sex scenes everywhere heck I think one chapter had 3 different ones that lasted like 10 minutes each

[@rogerhuggettjr.7675]

I thought about all the books I've read and the only long lasting marriage I could think of were F'lar and Lessa in the Dragonflight books, and there they began dating and it was only how long the series lasted that allowed that to be said about the main couple. Of course that started in 1968 when people still got married.

[@jacobchristiansen6573]

I would say for Fantasy books that have civilizations that aren't clearly inspired by a particular culture The Storm Light Archive is a good one. While yes you have some inspiration taken for big picture stuff, when Sanderson gets in to the nitty gritty of the customs of these places it gets really interesting to me :)

[@stormcrow1970]

I'd highly recommend Paul O. WIlliams' "Pelbar Cycle" (the first book in the series is titled "The Breaking of Northwall). It's a post-apocalyptic, but non-dystopian, series. The characters try to make moral choices, there are a variety of cultures each of which has its own strengths and weaknesses, the married characters in the series face struggles but genuinely love each other, etc. This is a series with something (many things) that can inspire modern readers without setting out to "teach" a lesson because it sticks to a very important rule (adhered to JRR Tolkien): stories are meant to entertain.

[@kenm.a.d.7196]

I was with you until you started saying Grimdark was more realistic and a net positive for fantasy… Everyone being a piece of shit isn’t realistic and why do people try to fault fantasy for not being too “realistic” anyway?

[@En-ig9fv]

40+ Female Main Character... brother, you have A Day of Fallen Night on the shelf behind you. Does milf dragon slayer Tunuva Melim mean nothing to you 😔

[@carriehollister8970]

I agree with most of these views but had a hard time finding stories I liked. So I wrote my own. I like realistic and messy relationships that show the value of fighting for love and family.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

More things like The Locked Tomb series please.

[@Alexander-tu3iv]

Such a great series. Some of the best writing in modern fantasy imo.

[@Promthanius]

I am told my books come across as very cinematic and I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it means I did a good job writing it.

[@miriel7662]

I recommend “Heresy” by Katie Reiser. It’s a Romantasy novel with a murder mystery and it’s soooo good! The world-building is phenomenal and the characters are super well written. Keep in mind that it’s a very descriptive book and it’s long, but I love it. I couldn’t put it down!

[@lindenstromberg6859]

Fantasy in the 1990s was most certainly not about fathers who loved their wives. Quite the opposite. The Fantasy of the 1990s generally challenged social norms, same with science fiction. If there was a story that started with a father who loved his wife, by the end of the book, there would be death and destruction of that family.

[@Abken.]

I also want more dark fantasy (which by definition is fantasy+horror and very different from grimdark fantasy). I love Dark Tower, but it's super unorthodox as a fantasy. I wish there were more dark fantasy series that are also epic fantasy (e.g. Mistborn, Stormlight, Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire). As far as I know one of the most fitting epic dark fantasy series is Demon Cycle by Peter V. Brett, but haven't tried it yet because people say it falls off a lot after each sequel and it's just not good after book 3, but they are only 5, so I might try them - all 5 are above 4/5 rating in Goodreads. Do you know Percepliquis (Riyria's Revelations 6) by Michael J. Sullivan? I love love love this book, it's one of my favorite fantasy endings of all time. There's a lot of potential for horror there (not saying the author should've gone for the spooks). Imagine Percepliquis but with more traditional horror writing style - it has exploring cavings (like the movie The Descent), scary creatures who live there for a thousand of years and people who went exploring died, there's a nearby village that people say is haunted, etc. I think the book is perfect as it is, I'm just brainstorming "what if we have epic fantasy like Riyria but when people are exploring caves the horror elements are elevated and it gets super spooky, super gory with a lot of buildup from urban legends, e.g. backstory of people who died there exploring, high tension, maybe some psychological horror element with the characters, etc." I would love to read a high quality epic dark fantasy. Imagine the classic characters quest - going on an expedition, or to defeat the dark lord, but the villages they go through on their journey get more messed up every time - from destroyed to massacred to haunted with massacred, so the journey is intense from beginning to end and the reader never knows what evil lurks in the shadows. I liked First Law Book 2's adventure, there was a lot of "WTF is happening on this part of the world" both with the journey to the end of the world and the Gurkhul chapters.

[@iggydaking9117]

Malazan Book of the Fallen.

[@shenotski]

Vampire Hunter D

[@sono_chi_no_sodium_chlorid7635]

We don't need a world without humans (Althouh I would welcome it) necessarily, but in world where inteligent non humans exist we should actually see them used. Non humans protagonists are extremly rare for no good reason. And no. We do not need the main character to be a human to relate to them. Hell we don't even need to relate to the protagonist to begin with.

[@_ashleylh]

There is a 50ish yeah old female point of view in "Day of Fallen Night" by Samantha Shannon!

[@gracesull78756]

i was thinking exactly this! so refreshing to see this, especially the middle aged women who are shown to be very capable but mothers, and in a well established long term relationship. i also just really appreciated the variety of ages between both fallen night and priory overall, a man in his 60s, women in their 50s, characters in mid/late 20s to 30s

[@_ashleylh]

@@gracesull78756 exactly 😀

[@Nightmarc369]

Much of what im going for in my fantasy writings is something within the vibe or atmosphere of pre DnD fantasy. Trying to recapture the vibe that Tolkien, Lewis, and Le Guinne made, but more into my style. As for my sci-fi. I've taken a lot of inspiration from the classics as well. And I'm talking Burroughs. And you are right about the marriage details and its lack of good representation in media. There's a married couple in my books that are one of the major supporting characters.

[@QueenSiv]

I hated how X rated fantasy was, so I read Ember and Stone by Megan O’Russell and I loved it! Easy read and still includes romance. I am regularly impressed by books that aren’t in the public eye. I also enjoyed The Shape of Darkness, a historical fiction supernatural mystery placed in the Victorian Baths. Big recommend

[@sherribugd3799]

I’m so tired of EVERY protagonist being the “strong female.” Cuz let’s face it. Most women are not ones who would pick up a sword.

[@xiiir838]

I agree, makes the story predictable because it's not just that they kick ahh, they cannot be beaten, can't make huge mistake, cannot be tricked into doing wrong, etc...

[@laisphinto6372]

Thats Not the Main Problem i wouldnt Care If the strong Woman would BE Just a strong Woman and WE can move ON to actual Characterization,Not the whole Character IS strong female the entire Plot IS tailored to specifically Showcase thats He IS strong and a Woman , somehow you have so many douches she has to Proof wrong and Showcase girlpower,Like its tolerable for the First chapters but seriously that trope IS really tired after the tenth book in chapters 4724 where somehow another Guy Belittles her because she is a Girl despite being the apex super heroine WHO defeated countless enemies etc.

[@salami155]

I’ve been reading Patricia Mckillip(RIP). She started writing in the 70’s and her female characters are great. Her worlds are compelling, mysterious, and quite refreshing. Start with the forgotten beasts of eld.

[@anonymouslyopinionated656]

6:56 Grimdark is NOT realistic by definition. It's the literary equivalent of a emo-goth phase. "All people are bad and everything is corrupt" is the edgy reactionaty teenage version of "nuance".

[@rivendells_shona]

Unpopular opinion: Michael J Sullivan’s “Legends of the First Empire” revolves around a primary female character who’s 37 in the first book and already a wife and mother. She’s also already an established leader and has no superpowers. There are other characters revolving around and interweaving with her story, both younger and older. The “teen girls” in the story are also not your typical teen female protagonists. Just as the male characters (ranging in age from mid teens to middle aged) are complex. And there are plenty of “just chill” moments in *all* his books, interspersing the political intrigues and “action scenes”. He’s received some criticism for being too formulaic plot-wise (probably because he’s character driven and writes what he wants for fun) and his Legends series features societies that appear to innovate too quickly (that’s debatable). There’s no perfect author but his work does seem to step into some of these vacancies.

[@TheKnoxvicious]

Character reflection happens in a LOT of movies. Have you only seen Hollywood Blockbusters? I hate the way readers/writers look down upon movies. They’re only a different vehicle to tell their story and can do MANY things books cannot.

[@0815Snickersboy]

Iain M Banks culture series is a non dystopian future

[@Maria-ok7oe]

i also would love a book that deals with the aftermath of the characters. Explore the effects of being a world-saving hero that comes back home to this little town with its petty problems and explore how hard it actually is to fit into these old patterns when having literally saved the world. The lord of the Rings does this to an extent but I think this could be explored more. It would help so many people deal with the reality of finding their place in their old home after living in a completely different environment with different worldviews. Also healthy families. A hero that writes home to ask for help and actually gets good advise from their parents. They come to a city and the hero says to its fellow members "sorry mates, but i must visit my sibling, its the golden rule of the family." before wandering of and spending a day with their sibling doing normal stuff and goofing around like siblings do before continuing their quest. There are so many messed up or dead families in fantasy it is crazy. Simply have a happy home however you want to make it. Oh, and a romance where people are not pretty. Why does every romance novel have to feature people that fit the beauty standards to a dime? It would be nice if there would be a few stories where both are average looking at best and find each other because of shared interests or whatnot. They might find each other ugly but that doesn't reduce how much they love each other.

[@thatweirdpersononyoutube835]

Im upset I can't find that many high fantasy graphic novels. So im making my own

[@SickegalAlien]

I'm going to get a lot of h8 for saying this, but thinking that "moral greyness" is a proxy for character complexity, is lazy and, frankly, ignorant. Let's take Obi-Wan from star wars. He's the goody two shoes paladin archetype, the knight in shining armour. He never does anything "dark" let alone "grey". Yet, his character is plenty complex because of his bond with Qui-Gon, his brotherhood with Anakin and his coming to terms with the failures of the Jedi Order. It doesn't mean Obi-Wan is infallible. He separates Luke and Leia at birth and later lies to Luke about Darth Vader. But none of these faults make him a "morally grey" character. He's just a righteous character with a multidimensional personality.

[@LawrenceCaldwellAuthor]

Jump cuts are not new. War and Peace has a million characters and the chapters are darned short. On another note, I don't get this obsession with "realism." Lately I've been reading fairy tales. They're not realistic, and most often they don't feature "grey characters." It's, in a way, refreshing.

[@FinallyMajor]

A horror fantasy novel I’m always recommended is Clive Barker’s Imajica. I haven’t read it, but soon.

[@123mat1231]

Scythe trilogy takes place in a literal perfect world where there’s no sickness, hunger, poverty or death. Really a breath of fresh air from the dystopian futures

[@AmItheTrashhole]

GIVE ME FARM BOY CHOSEN ONE

[@RoseBaggins]

Umm ... besides Eragon?

[@belugawhale8128]

Fr. Rand al Thor can't be beaten

[@adamnesico]

See classic fantasy: LotR, Prydain, Belgariad, Sorrows&Thorn, Wheel of Time...

[@quantumvideoscz2052]

@@adamnesico LOTR is anything but this. Neither Frodo nor Bilbo are "chosen", Bilbo is basically dragged into his adventure by Gandalf and only accidentally (or through the will of Iluvatar, if you will) does he come across the Ring. And does nothing much with it. Frodo is just his heir and was also never "chosen" or "destined" for any of this. The only reason he had to deal with the Ring and not his children/nephews/whoever would inherit it is because it was at that point that Gandalf finally realized what was happening. Tolkien really loved the ordinary people of the world, so he made the two main heroes of LOTR, Frodo and Sam, the least "special" or "chosen" ones.

[@adamnesico]

@@quantumvideoscz2052 Gandalf said to Frodo that he and Bilbo had been chosen as ringbearers by fate.

[@bjornh4664]

It isn't a new problem: "GF [Genre Fantasy] is at heart not fantasy at all, but a comforting revisitation of cosy venues, creating an effect that is almost anti-fantasy. An allied point is that GFs cater in large part for unimaginative readers, who, through the reading of a GF, can feel themselves to be, as it were, vicariously imaginative." - John Grant, The Encyclopedia of Fantasy, 1997

[@shenotski]

3 words ‘Vampire Hunter D’ the entire series is a fantasy scifi horror romance western and it fucking works, most importantly the series take place in an era where humanity is coming back from 10 thousand years of being ruled by vampire nobles. Theres over 40 books and outside of two parters all are well contained within each book

[@KamiRecca]

i want fantasyworlds to have internal mythology. Most fantasyworlds revel in Internal Reality. A gryphon flying over a field in moonlight makes it have a good harves. I want worlds where one farmer brags to another farmer that "Guess what i saw yesterday? A gryphon flying over my field in moonlight. You know what that means, dont you? My crops will be bigger than yours." and this is just folklore, belief. Specificly i want myth to be a comfort and a moral well for the inhabitants of the world. Not true statements of it.

[@rogerhuggettjr.7675]

The epic fantasy is everything for me. I don't like worlds that last 300-400 pages and it's over. Give me 15 books of Jordan, 20 books of McCaffrey, an 1800 page Mistborn series or 30 books of Terry Brooks. If it gets too intense I can grab one of the dozens of Discworld, Xanth or Asprin MYTH books to decompress. books

[@MistbornPrincess]

I admit, my main characters are fairly young. But in a medieval-level tech, many couples get married young. I do later have my Main char marry her first love later in life. (She had to give him up for an arranged marriage in their early adulthood. She did fall in love with her husband but after he died and their daughters grew up, she fell in ,love with her first love again and married him ❤)

[@OlenaNikitinAuthor]

That is interesting because I write adult epic fantasy romance based on slavic mythology but ... readers seems to crave young slightly dumb and saving the world rather than 'think a little before you slay the dragon' preferably with Celtic or greek origin. The end line is authors needs to sell their books whether it is to publishing house or directly to the reader so not many of them will write what is difficult to sell.

[@woodlandlady7011]

Thanks for this video! Please do a follow up

[@daywalker4061]

For married couple-ish i think testament of steel takes the cake, somehow

[@Matthewwithers33]

10:29 that’s part of the reason a lot of people disliked rings of power because the writers (who didn’t even read Tolkien) tried to make Sauron more rounded when Tolkien just wrote him as evil

[@MusicBlik]

Older characters in fantasy who act their age? Try Captain Lawrence, from "His Majesty's Dragon" by Naomi Novik. I also recall reading a webnovel, years ago, titled "Spots the Space Marine" with a 40-something female protagonist. I remember it being very well done.

[@Taevio96]

I'm just going to say that they don't look enough, the thing is that it requires a deep search, but they are there

[@IchigoThePrincess]

Yes - good family relationships in general!

[@DlaGraphical]

I want more sci-fi fantasy that is less human-centric, particularly in settings of galaxies and universes. It just feels dull to me for humans to take centre stage. It can be justified in-universe such as in Dune, but I want to see aliens, humanoid or not, with unique genealogy and biology. I feel like too many things are just humans with wings, tails and meaningless alien appendages to make a potential adaptation more shootable. Star Wars is set in a biodiverse galaxy but the most important characters are human. I know what I’m looking for is already around but I’d like to see more of it come to prominence.

[@nileniale]

Can't remember how old Essun in The Fifth Season is but she's certainly edging towards middle aged. And the series is great!

[@hira791]

I especially agree with the prevalence of juvenile behaviour/thinking processes (similar to most teenagers) of characters despite them even being older in age. It bores the hell out of me with how frequent and unrelatable these characters are (especially the way they write female characters 🥲) Like who is the target audience of this book (even tho the contents of it are otherwise adult) Surprisingly, George R.R Martins a song of fire and ice series has a plethora of literal children with complex adult-like thoughts and behaviour which was so refreshing. I haven't found enough of that.

[@promcheg]

What I really miss in modern fantasy are mature characters. I am tired of reading about another 12-year-old edge lord. I am missing a grounded approach to worldbuilding. It would be great to have an MC who uses a spear instead of a chain sword.

[@r.awilliams9815]

Female criminals/badasses? Hard to imagine any ladies more wicked than Spite and Envy from the Malazan series. They've had a long time to practice, after all.

[@arienrhod1]

If someone is bored with the pacing and structure (it isn't necessarily about thropes; those are a different beast entirely), they can try some translated stuff. It's true that lately a lot of English sff market has been dominated by structures that, to me too, almost seem standarized. Stuff from other countries and cultures (at least those which weren't inspired by the American way) may seem fresh because of that. For futuristic and not dystopian, try space opera, and - paradoxically, and if you're up for that - sf horror. Horror in a fantasy world - one example would be an oldie, The Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman. The world is technically sf - since it's set on a planet colonized by people from Earth - but it's full of fantasy elements, monsters and magic. In my opinion, it's epic/quest fantasy with very strong horror elements. Another is Charles Stross's The Laundry Files (horror urban fantasy style), then Thistlefoot by GennaRose Nethercott, or Juniper & Thorn by Ava Reid (that one needs trigger warnings). There are also some fun examples of lbqt+ sff horror, like Leech by Hiron Ennes, What Moves the Dead (the retelling of Poe's The Fall of the House of Usher) by T. Kingfisher (and also other stuff by Kingfisher, although her style is very singular - her horror tend to also be funny), Our Wives Under The Sea by Julia Armfield, to name a few. (Lol, I thought about Adrian Tchaikovsky a second before the OP mentioned him. Tchaikovsky is one of my favorites, although I'm more into his novellas.)