Experimental Character Showcase - Kazali

[@snarkbotanya6557]

I was the one who came up with Reznora's Amnesiac ability! It was my first time watching the stream and having my suggestion get used in the game to such great effect absolutely made my day. I really need to try and get some of my friends into BotC so that I can actually play it instead of just watching and analyzing.

[@Miraxik]

Join some online games :D

[@Brettastic8740]

I second Aggie. I loved watching NRBs games and joined the BOTC discord. They’re super friendly and have an online game running all the time

[@Cory_Springer]

That was a sweet amni ability!

[@hootinrooting]

Is the Discord accessible through Patreon? I can't find it anywhere else.

[@UsePsychology]

Nice! I love amnesiac abilities! Awesome that yours got used 🤗

[@blunderstruck1]

saw someone say “Kazali: Each night*, choose a player: they die. [Set up likely unbalanced]” and I can’t help but agree

[@henriknobinder7395]

Given that the Kazali got rid of two outsiders, it might have been better to make the amnesiac a pseudo-outsider by going with the passive ability of becoming the alignment of the nominator. Given how the game played out, it probably wouldn't have ended much differently, but still.

[@q-tuber7034]

A lot of bad luck for the evil team there. But bluffing Shugenja when you are boxed between your minions? That’s an own-goal.

[@STEPHENDANERD]

It's... interesting. As people have pointed out, a big part of storyteller balancing is making an interesting equal battle of good and evil characters, this character gives the evil team agency to make a "perfect team" every time, with the 1 downside being the demon afterwards has no special ability (which could be changed by making a pit hag) and the big rng factor of hitting outsiders or townsfolk disrupting that balance severely... I think the only way the character can still work and have some semblance of balance, is if the demon does get to pick *what* minions are in play but the storyteller then gets to decide *who* are the minions - So it would look like: Each night* choose a player: they die. [You choose which minions are in play. +1 outsider] The demon gets their dream team of minions, the toxic meta of picking your friends is removed as a possibility and the job of balancing stays with the storyteller. So for example: "Well a Godfather was added and we're in a no outsider game, it'd be a bit unfair to the godfather to remove the 1 outsider added by the Kazali, so I'll take out one of the lower value townsfolk... let's go with the tealady who's sat beside the demon anyway so their power was never gonna work. The good team might find out there is an outsider, but that could mean a Kazali, or that a godfather was in play to begin with and we still have a different demon." I say the storyteller should still pick instead of there just being 2 minions already in the bag, simply because of that need to balance the teams and giving the minions their free bluff (which is a solid benefit to the evil team for this demon already) Also this would make poppy grower and magician interactions simpler.

[@strawbunnyy]

very excited about this reveal but i’m distracted by how cool Edd’s hair is

[@Tribdinosaur]

I'm curious where the name "Kazali" comes from! Coincidentally, it sounds like the Tagalog word "kasali" which is close enough to meaning "join us." Literally "kasali" means 'someone who has joined you.'

[@Miraxik]

In Polish "kazali" means "they told us to do it", but I don't think that's where it comes from xD

[@Tzeren-Kal]

Antun Kazali was a Croatian poet. The stream said something about songs of Zlatko and Coso which are his songs

[@Miraxik]

@@Tzeren-Kal but that's not where the name comes from, Ben just put the demon's name in Google to create the stream name/hint ;)

[@Tzeren-Kal]

@@Miraxik oh I see, thanks

[@kamranbanan5181]

The first time I saw the name it reminded me of :en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

[@spheal24]

Character Ideas: Insomniac (Townsfolk): Each night, you wake up instead of another character (good or evil), and gain their ability until dawn. You do not know which ability you have gained, and the replaced character does not wake tonight. (e.g. You may wake instead of the Poisoner and choose a player, not knowing they are the Poisoner; you may wake instead of the Town Crier and learn a Yes/No) Sleepwalker (Outsider): Each night, when a player selects a different player, the Storyteller acts as if you were the one selected (e.g. You may be protected by the Monk who selected someone else; a Gambler may die if ST decides you were gambled instead of the person they chose) Nightmare (Minion): Each night, choose a player. This player cannot wake tonight. (e.g. Choose the Fortune Teller, and they do not wake tonight even if they are alive)

[@WukongTheMonkeyKing]

Nightmare sounds fun, but I would add that players can't be picked more than once, or cant be the same as previous night. Being able to lock down someone can make their game much more boring. People want to play their characters. I dislike Preacher for the same reason.

[@celestialTangle]

I feel like the correct way to set up a Kazali script outsider-wise is to either include a bunch of roles that confound the outsider count anyway (damsel, mutant, etc) and/or a bunch of "outsiders matter" characters like the Librarian (ooh, Balloonist only learning three players could be fun...)

[@DreamAlike]

New Clocktower video on my birthday! What a nice present 😄

[@WinterAspen]

Happy birthday! Hope you have/had a nice day :)

[@ErekLich]

I just can't see how this demon is balanced. You could absolutely destroy town or you could turn all the outsiders evil and be weaker than a pukka. I like the concept but, much like Leviathan, I think this demon will only ever work on a script where they're the only demon

[@Paint_The_Future]

When I see storytellers picking minions, they carefully weigh the benefits and drawbacks of each one and try to perfectly select the evil team to match the power of the good town... then this character is released and it's like, "It can do whatever it wants. There is no balance, it can just get unlucky." I get it's an experimental character. Needs more experimenting in my opinion, this shouldn't be the final version of it. The main trouble I have is that there could be a tonne of outsiders or there could be none depending on who is picked, and I don't know how to work around that. Maybe after the Kazali picks, the ST looks at the grim and brings the outsider count back to what it should be, switching players as needed... but then people would know it's a Kazali in play. Maybe there is no perfect way of doing this, but I think there's a better way at least.

[@myohel0]

One solution I had seen was proposing a Drunk be on the script, and do a "floating drunk" at setup where if the Kazali picks too many outsiders, a townsfolk can be made the Drunk. Apparently that's an idea that's viewed negatively by some in the community with the argument that it would make the outsider count unsolvable (I think the arguments against Kazali/Drunk are not too different from the arguments about Drunk and Sentinel)

[@granthor8873]

​@@myohel0the outsider count is unsolvable - it says so on the token!

[@Benusr]

I saw the twitch stream, it was an epic game! God I love this demon so much!

[@kadkins3]

I enjoyed my first few games in person. Working up the social courage to play online with the discord and site. Enjoying the videos!

[@borbarrad]

Happy new year to you all, folkes!

[@ribbonquest]

Kazali + Engineer would be an aggravating interaction for the demon.

[@Zedja]

I just realized that these Showcase games include a whole lot of storytellers from their own communities. Which is a good way to do it since they are supposed to continue to storytell with that character. Patters has his own community and Milk is with Everyone Can Game. It's just too bad that these videos usually comes out after the other channels already has released videos using it. The first game on ECG had a Kazali that picked his wife and someone I believe lives with them. There wasn't any toxicity and it was a really fun game to watch. I won't spoil the result.

[@emmacone-roddy762]

lol hungry does not live with Sean and Christine

[@DakotaAvery23]

Can you imagine if he did? What a world

[@emmacone-roddy762]

I’ve changed my mind. I’ve now decided hungry is their live in butler

[@christinEHHH]

I mean according to ECG lore, hungry is canonically my son. But no, he lives very very far away from us

[@Zedja]

@@christinEHHH Thanks for letting me know. I went off of memory from a video where Sean dropped something (or made a large sound) and both you and Hungry heard it. But I could be remember that wrong.

[@GeniusLad32]

I immediately bought the fuck out of that pin. Absolutely love it

[@EJetson22]

Patters looked like he just rolled out of bed to play.

[@patrickcampbell7255]

That is mostly true.

[@TheLastSane1]

I have noticed Psychopath seems to never be on scripts anymore. Was there a recall on that character? Or is it just unpopular?

[@bakedice6767]

just unpopular. As someone who writes scripts, deciding what minions to include is often a very tricky, and psychopath is extremely loud. Usually psychopath can't really be used on scripts alongside quiet minions, or if so must be done so carefully, and as much most script builders (or at least, this is what I do) just tend to avoid the psychopath unless I'm specifically building a script around it (similar to Al-Hadikhia, Organ Grinder, and Vizier. Psychopath is quieter than some louder minions, in the sense that they don't need to out themselves, but it's still tricky to use).

[@myohel0]

@@bakedice6767Yeah I don't see Psychopath on too many scripts. Think I see it together with the Alchemist fairly often, so someone who Psychopath kills is not always evil. Alch Psychopath seems to pop up in things like Legion games sometimes (where on one hand, the Alch Psychopath can kill evils, but Legion can argue that Psychopath is one of the minions of the non-Legion evil team).

[@TheLastSane1]

@@bakedice6767 That sucks its a fun minion. One that can be very loud and "Look at me" to distract people. Especially if they are aiming that axe at some powerful roles.

[@maxvanamstel1821]

Ben tries to defend the Kazali at the end by saying that there have also been games where Town was absolutely destroyed by Evil, but that's not ok either. A balanced character is not a character that sometimes favors one team and sometimes the other. A balanced character ensures that individual games (usually) can go either way. In its current form, this character has failed, in my opinion. That's okay! It's an experiment. Experiments can also show that something doesn't work yet

[@BloodontheClocktower]

Apologies, I thought this was obvious but perhaps I should have been a little more clear. I was stating that over the 8 or so games I'd seen it in, I'd seen the whole spectrum from one team dominating, to the other team dominating, to everything in-between. - Ben

[@VivBrodock]

engineer on a Kazali script is gonna be very funny.

[@WukongTheMonkeyKing]

I can't remember which channel it's on, but one game had engineer and hatter and barber. Super chaotic and great game.

[@culila]

@WukongTheMonkeyKing it was on this channel, video's called "switchcraft - deadly hat engine" :>

[@Kings_Quest]

Kazali-goon sounds fun

[@richardshort2001]

I would love to add a Kazali and a Marionette to Trouble Brewing. As a half step to more complicated scripts for newer players. Just to show what having other characters on a script can change, even if the characters aren't in the game.

[@legathus]

Kazali would be more fun if the demon picked their minions on the second night and third night. And perhaps more balanced?

[@brandonharris9088]

Yeah, I’m not vibing with the Kazali. There’s the problem we see here where the Kazali is only as strong as the information it removes. If it arbitrarily picks the wrong players it becomes pretty swingy. Plus it sort of encourages optimal play. Why would you ever pick Organ Grinder, Harpy, or Marionette when Spy/Poisoner exists. It’s clearly the best option, especially when the Kazali is the first player to wake up, so they have zero information. On top of that, because the only thing the Kazali does is pick the minions, the only way to mechanically defend itself is to pick minions that can affect other players information (or the occasional escape hatch; SW for example). It’s really reliant on its minions because of this. Also, no PPG or Magician jinx is weird. The Kazali sort of invalidates those characters. An interesting way to fix this might be to just let the Kazali see the grim on the first night. That way, it avoids outsiders and makes games less swingy. I mean sure, it gets to select what townsfolk it wants to remove, but that can be balanced in script building (plus, ST input characters like the amne, savant, and fisherman can swing the game if necessary because the Kazali can’t know how strong that info will be.) This also frees up the Kazali from picking spy/widow, because it doesn’t need it. Or it could pick a widow just for the poison and the ping, letting people meta whether a Kazali would do that or not. It still doesn’t fix PPG/magician, but you can jinx it so the Kazali doesn’t see the grim and just selects what minions are in play but not the players. This can be a way to balance the Kazali if it would otherwise be too powerful on a script.

[@RoderickEtheria]

Does the Kazali learn who the Magician is if they are in the same game? How do Kazali and Poppy Grower work in the same game?

[@nobodynoses]

The wiki doesn't have any jinxes for those two listed, so it's probably just an awful time for them. What would be fun for the Magician and Kazali jinx would be to have the demon pick an extra minion, then let one of the players picked know that they're now the Magician. Knowing what demon it is N1 is powerful, yeah, but Kazali already seems pretty strong from the few games I've seen of it and hard jinxes are boring. With Poppy Grower, maybe just have the demon name the minions they want and the Storyteller picks who gets them.

[@itchy7879]

Both of those jinxes sound great to me

[@RoderickEtheria]

Lunatic also shouldn't learn Kazali unless you make a jinx that would prevent minions from being pulled in by the Kazali if there is a Lunatic in the game.

[@bnmzxcvqwerty]

ran a kazali game where they chose the mutant as marionette and the demon bluffed as flowergirl and executed the town crier on final 3 and won the game

[@KingDooburu]

I think the Kazali needs to allow the storyteller to adjust the outsider count after the minion pick otherwise it will always be swingy based on who the Kazali picks.

[@Kage-Yami]

I don't think that would work, because if you changed a townsfolk to outsider (or vice-versa) after the Kazali picks, then that immediately tells that player (a) that there is a Kazali in play, and (b) that the specific townsfolk (or outsider) they were is not in play.

[@sashagornostay2188]

Gonzales. Take caution. The mechanation is reversed. Errors in system. Reconfig

[@Nuclear_Gandhi]

Lunatic Kazali when

[@Coldheart322]

Given you have an app version of the game, have you considered making "App only" characters, who can take advantage of being able to do things differently online? The Kazali feels like a good demon whose ability could be altered for online play, but works in person still. However the design space for things that can happen online could open up other possibilities. Saying that, I can't think of any that a ST can't deal with atm.

[@BloodontheClocktower]

This is a conversation we have absolutely had and once the expansions are out for BotC, it's something we'll give some serious consideration to. - Ben

[@sdspivey]

How does the Kazali work with a poppy grower? Wouldn't that defeat the power of the PG if the demon picks the minions?

[@Kings_Quest]

Sounds like a jinx. Maybe something like: Kazali picks two characters who become minions, but don't learn who those characters are. If not in play, Kazali will be asked to pick again

[@Thatonegamer332]

It's jinxed "If the poppy grower is in play the Storyteller should put kazali to sleep when waking each minion to tell them their character has changed and then run poppy grower as usual" Personally I'd run a house rule of "If poppy grower is in player kazali gets to pick which minions are in play but the ST decides who the minions are and runs poppy grower as usual"

[@Thatonegamer332]

Cus imo the current jinx ruins the poppy growers power as the demon can easily go to the minion n go hey your this cool that was me. (If I'm reading the jinx correctly)

[@acenomadic]

It's not actually jinxed currently. Edd made a note of how the interaction works, but that wasn't noted as being a jinx

[@Dragonatrix]

@@Thatonegamer332There's no jinx at all. PG in a Kazali game is a dead draw because you functionally have no ability.

[@hamed2800]

I would just out it and nominate myself day1 if I learned I took barber and politician out of the game and the only suspect player besides me is the monk this was just impossible to win

[@ribbonquest]

Dang, I really want that pin but I'm at least four months too late watching this video.

[@TophTheMelonLord]

Ouch, not giving the demon a single bluff that wants to live past day 1? Yes, sacrificing the poisoner rather than the spy to sell the Shugenja bluff was a minor mistake, but you could have left *one* powerful townsfolk out of the bag.

[@jesoko6724]

Yea I can already see this demon causing meta issues. I really like the concept but I watched a game the other day where a player stopped short of having a full on temper tantrum because they were picked to be poisoner by their Kazali. I get they were disappointed (they drew their favorite townsfolk character randomly out of the bag) but they were threatening to poison their own demon every night until they couldn’t anymore in retaliation. I think the only reason they didn’t is because they realized they were playing in front of a Twitch audience. That particular ST in that game would have definitely made them pay for it if it had gone that far, but the first couple nights of whining were hard to watch. Players also need to remember that demons don’t always pick you on purpose to ruin your game, sometimes it’s strategy. And that sometimes, the RNG gods will give you a red token, it happens. ETA: Guys, my interpretation of that game is not really up for debate here. I watched the game, the behavior almost ruined the watching experience for me. Coming to defend the player and make excuses for them is not going to change how I experienced it. At the end of the day, none of us are mind readers. I'm glad you had a better experience, but just as not everyone is going to see it the way I saw it, the same could be said of you. The point is that anyone should be aware of how their behavior might be interpreted and be prepared. Sometimes, you can't really help how you come off and sometimes you can. All you can do is try your best and correct any mistakes you might have made in the future. I saw what I interpreted to be an example of toxic behavior. It doesn't matter if it was real or not this time -- the point is it can be seen as real and it can actually be real in the future. That is the overarching point.

[@bennytyty]

I know what game you're talking about and I have to say I think you've either misjudged or misrepresented the situation. Remember that these players know each other much better than we know them. And as an aside, please remember that the online clocktower streaming community is very small and your words are *very* hurtful to a real person who is brave enough to put themselves on the internet for your entertainment for free.

[@newman6786]

@@bennytyty wompwompwomp, cry more. Whining in a game is such a toddler move.

[@jesoko6724]

@@bennytyty iI don’t know how I could have misjudged anything. The player in question spent the first two days talking about nothing but how much they were disappointed to have been picked. It was hard to watch. And said to their demon's face in private chat that they were going to poison them every night. Even if this particular player was only being half serious, there are plenty of other players who would absolutely be seriously butthurt and have no problem expressing it or gamethrowing. It wasn’t meant to be hurtful to that player (which is why I didn’t name them or the ST) but a warning to other STs running this demon. The only talk I’ve heard of is demon toxicity but picked minions could react in a toxic way as well. Know your players, all of them, not just people who pull demon tokens.

[@Zedja]

@@jesoko6724 I've watched the same game and what they said was just them blowing off steam. They never once threw the game with their choices. There was only one time I noticed some hostility and that was when the player nominated their own demon. Also, they said that they would poison the demon to the other minions. Not the demon.

[@jesoko6724]

@@Zedja what one person sees as blowing off steam can be seen as whining by another person. I’ve seen multiple games including that player and they never once acted like that so it looked out of character and toxic. And I said they talked about throwing. I never said they actually followed through with it. At the end of the day, it’s not about that particular player. I’m only pointing out that STs should warn all their players to be mindful of their behavior, not just demons who are picking minions. If you get picked, it’s the same as if you get picked by the bag. I’m not saying you need to be super gracious and not allowed to express any annoyance or disappointment, but multiple days of comments about it is excessive. Be mindful of how you are coming off to your other players and your audience.

[@kaelanmick3065]

I think this demon, since it has a chance to only hit townsfolk should have next to no outsiders, but the demon also picks a drunk.

[@Thatonegamer332]

so my only thing is Kazali magician should be hate jinxed or it should be that if kazali and magician are in polay the ST decides who the minions are the kazali pick which characters. same could go for Poppy grower

[@daemoncarroll8347]

Way I would bring Kazali back into balance is having it add a character that says this "You can't change alignments or character. Each night you may choose a player and die. That player becomes that character if they are an outsider."