Explain Yourself

A simple thought experiment.
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[@WorgProfile]

I reject judges and don't recognize their authority over me!

[@scenFor109]

Then you should also reject being addressed as their title - Mister, Sir etc.

[@adropofgoldensun46]

Nobody has authority over me, never have

[@adropofgoldensun46]

Nope, have never voted only once when 21 (because I could woopty doo) never again plus I demanded my name be taken off the registry

[@tkoll6268]

Nuremberg trials - "I was just following orders."

[@1voluntaryist]

At, 11, 1954, I told my father I was quitting my first job because my check had deducted .75% for S.S. He tried to convince me it was a good program. I tried to tell him that was irrelevant. It was my hard-earned money and I had a right to all of it. Therefore, I needed to be asked, convinced, and I wasn't. Ironically, I made more mowing lawns, enjoyed being self-employed.

[@eclipse369.]

So simple, easy to understand and vehemently want yet majority of people do not understand, dont care, and defend the theft.

[@TheMCNemesisOnAmazonMusic]

So smart a

[@CostaRicaNOW369]

Ya brother...similar story myself...but I shoveled snow and worked nights pumping gas. Self-Ownership !!!

[@decadude8968]

I think what Tessa said at the end of Kicking the Dragon is extremely related to this: "Every action large and small, must be judged...am I furthering what I value, or am I contributing to its demise? Whatever I choose, I will have to live with having made that choice. We are all on trial in the great court of history, and our great grand-children will judge our generation with clear eyes."

[@DavinnaJo]

Larken, you're a brilliant teacher. At first, I squirmed with discomfort, but by mid-way, you had me convinced to never vote in a federal election again. I don't know what to do about federal taxes, though.

[@livewire2759]

A LOT of us are trying to figure out how to stop paying federal taxes... The only way I've figured out so far is to convince everyone else in the US to stop paying their taxes at the same time. It's not likely to happen, but we should still try.

[@kaboom4679]

Kind of hard to STOP paying , when you never had the opportunity to START paying , or , to NOT pay at all . Income and SS are skimmed by your employer , and , channeled to the government , before they can be dispersed to the rightful recipients . You can't actually pay if you never had it to hand over in the first place . And this way , you cannot NOT pay, unless they figure they didn't skim enough upfront , in which case they will send their leg breakers to rectify that in their own good time . Land of the Free Range Tax Cattle .

[@livewire2759]

@@fahqahsowl6498 How exactly does that work?

[@livewire2759]

@@fahqahsowl6498 I understand that... what I don't understand is how exactly does one go about executing such a plan? Do you have two identities? Do you pay taxes with one and not with the other? How exactly does it work?

[@livewire2759]

@@fahqahsowl6498 Do you pay taxes? Have you "filled in the blanks"... did you establish a "straw identity" for yourself?

[@robertmiller5835]

This is a good response to Spooner’s idea of voting in self defense.

[@badseed1262]

Pretty sure not voting doesn't denounce citizenship...or reduce the funding for the very army that protects Larken's ability to ramble on about slavery bad...germany bad...me good. I don't believe he offered a solution in this video...or really any video. Has he denounced his citizenship?

[@platinumfalconm3891]

@@badseed1262 I like Larken. I agree with him most of the time. However, his argument about voting is illogical. I concur with the idea of voting in self defense.

[@sallysinger1058]

Great thought experiment ..

[@Dirk_the_Daring]

Whether it be 100s of years ago or now, the population still supports slavery. We have the new and improved slavery now, where the government holds ownership rather than an individual. Even as a voluntaryist, all my previous compliance and support for the system in place makes me guilty.

[@livewire2759]

You're not guilty if you're being threatened with acts of violence to comply. That's like blaming a child kidnapping victim for allowing themselves to be kidnapped at gunpoint.

[@Dirk_the_Daring]

@@livewire2759 I am not a child. I was not a child when I was an eager statist either.

[@livewire2759]

@@Dirk_the_Daring No, but you were brainwashed... I was brainwashed too, but I can't say I was ever an "eager statist", since I never registered to vote and I've always hated paying taxes. We were born into bondage, given "birth certificates" and "social security numbers" the day we were born without any option or the ability to choose if we wanted to be "citizens" or not. We can't be blamed for being stolen from, we can't be blamed for being brainwashed... we can't be blamed for being enslaved. You're not guilty unless you still willingly participated in the system AFTER you found the truth.

[@badseed1262]

It's called grace

[@Dirk_the_Daring]

@@badseed1262 it might be forgiven by grace, but it certainly isn't forgotten.

[@saisofttevault4548]

Ya' know, I'm seeing the beginning of another epic movie here.

[@tkoll6268]

Free me.. A Libertarian, I dont want their protection anymore!

[@AxmihaMeuSaco]

Here's a Carl Jung quote that maybe is in order: When the ego persists in denying the new insights that it should appropriate and in refusing to alter accordingly its attitude and course in life, dreams may take place in which the dreamer is accused of a crime (the crime of unconsciousness) and even in which the execution of the dreamer is called for (because the old ego is standing in the way and must be eliminated).

[@wrenstarz]

Thought provoking and should be a no brainer. Sucks. No more voting would be an amazing awakening for this society.

[@daveconrad6562]

You don't know something is evil without context, until someone explains or shows a new and better way

[@msspacecake121]

Thank you Larken and your lady 🕊️❇️💚

[@soulstep967]

Guess I deserved to be caged. From 2014. I started to look into stuff. I don’t vote. Tax is evil. But yes. I must go to jail. If I’m honest.

[@tarmotaipale5704]

In part 2, for my defense, I would ask the judge who they are to act ask though their view of morality is objective. In similar fashion, I would not comdemn the slave master and his wife in part 1 since they can't reasonably be expected to "know" their actions are immoral

[@diogenes9295]

A lot of people are giving aggressors a pass here because they don't know any better. The number one priority is to make their ignorance harmless.

[@jpsabbey]

We're wasting our breath comrad!...🥴

[@deborahsavageshaffer6846]

Absolutely excellent! I can't wait to share this!

[@BradRaiche]

What's a Voluntaryist? Sounds interesting.

[@chrisscott3349]

Wake up America

[@darrellernst5493]

Answer this question, If the slave owners wife stood and watched him beat the slaves and did nothing is that any different than you standing and watching the police beat someone and doing nothing to stop it ?

[@1voluntaryist]

Not the same because the wife has more power than the citizen who could quickly be the next victim. But, you should record, and refuse to delete upon demand by the LEO. Live streaming is best because it can't be erased.

[@darrellernst5493]

@@1voluntaryist a wife of someone who regularly beats slaves has far less power than the average person has to make a conscious decision to not be an enabler. You are using the excuse that you are just following orders.

[@darrellernst5493]

@@1voluntaryist and the H. man's soldiers could have been shot for refusing to follow orders but they still were hanged at Nuremberg.

[@darrellernst5493]

@@1voluntaryist one more thing in the days of alcohol prohibition people could have went to prison for possessing, manufacturing or drinking alcohol but they continue to break the law until the law was repealed.

[@darrellernst5493]

@@1voluntaryist what would be the difference if the US government said you shot this five year old in the head or we'll do and frame you? Do it and you are free to walk. Do you do as your told or would suffer the consequences of refusing to do as you were told ? Paying taxes that will be used to kill is absolutely no different.

[@AuditorsUnited]

were buy things made from slaves in china... it left me filled with guilt

[@1voluntaryist]

"things" are made by tax slaves, right here, right now.

[@scottmatznick3140]

Why does fiction annoy you for being fictional...?

[@LarkenRose]

If you mean the time travel thing, it's because it's just patently stupid, and always comes out as a nonsensical mess.

[@KatyWantsToGo]

Virtue, might as well have that word removed from the dictionary… I think the absence of virtue is the root of our problem, and yes, I think it’s just that simple…

[@1voluntaryist]

How about the moral challenge of writing a book and titling it: "The Virtue of Selfishness"? I saw that and quickly grabbed it from the book stand, 1966. It changed my life.

[@KatyWantsToGo]

@@1voluntaryist tou can’t be responsible and self sufficient without being a little of what “they” call selfish, right?

[@badseed1262]

@@KatyWantsToGo self-preservation requires selfishness...are we pretending selfishness is bad?

[@KatyWantsToGo]

@@badseed1262 we are debating cultural views, nobody has a monopoly on truth, we all make our best guesses…

[@robb8331]

are the order followers on trial as well?

[@gan5045]

All I need to hear is sincere recognition of the wrong and the intent to never do it again. I won't hold my breath statist ...

[@badseed1262]

What and the actual F are you talking about? So I get robbed at knife point...the robber goes and buys a gun...then kills someone...and it's my fault? Please hold your breath

[@gan5045]

@@badseed1262 You have to take your head out of your bottom before I can explain. I'm curious how someone like you even finds themselves in a conversation like this?

[@cpellegrini70]

How do you come up with this stuff?! You are so creative in explaining these concepts. Thank you for your service, brother 🙏

[@jason9414]

Whether your a voluntaryist now, you where at some point in time, a statist. So everyone is guilty unless born completely outside of the system, never being part of that system. They wouldn't even be watching KZbin.

[@ghost79ish]

At only 3 minutes in, my answer is social ostracism. Socially ostracize the slave master and his wife. Complete social ostracism for the slave master, and 90% social ostracism for the wife. The condition being that both of them will have a chance at redemption IF they can convince us, the voluntaryists, that they understand what they have done is evil and vow never to do it again. I'm going to resume the video now, I'll let you know if my answer changes...

[@ghost79ish]

Watching this video and its entirety now, my answer doesn't change at all. In fact it's solidified it more. I have personally endured social ostracism from statists because I don't vote, because I've been preaching and living voluntaryism for well over a decade. I know some of the torture that is being a social animal and not having social approval for my points of view. Great video, as a voluntaryist it was pretty easy to answer these questions.

[@Paddyjay12]

If I was guy from 1860 now, I would point out the evils of statism, and in 100 years, if I'm on trial for being against statism but still on trial because I lived off its fruits, then I look for the evils lurking and people benifiting and point out the hypocracy... Otherwise in 100 years everyone's reached Enlightenment and I'm the only one who is a hypocrite and I'll take whatever punishment that is deemed fit.

[@andyschulgasser8694]

Larken of course what you say is great, but even though I won’t be voting anymore, I don’t think Voting makes as much of a difference as all the fees we are paying the government, like for our drivers license, registration, insurance, etc. If everyone stopped paying all of these fees, I think that is what could really make a difference. I truly believe the voting is all decided whether people show up or not at the voting booths. And every day I get more and more depressed as I drive in Encinitas/San Diego and it is under construction everywhere all the time building the 15 minute cities that they’re almost done with, and nobody is doing a damn thing to stand up against it. I have stopped and talked so many of the workmen to let them know they are building our prison, and I give them flyers with resources so they can check on their own. But I am literally the only person doing this And some of these workmen know this and they’re still doing their jobs. Just like the politicians can all be bought and paid for, ordinary workers, knowing that they are building things to imprison people or any jobs they have that are causing harm to people, in my opinion, they are all being bought and paid for.

[@unvaccinatedamerican9620]

Wrong actions are wrong actions, regardless of the time, location, or other circumstances in which they occur. The above statement aligns with the Principle of Identity of Classical Logic, and the Principle of Universality of Objective Morality. Let us define a wrong action as “any action which causes or enables unjust harm to a sentient being or to property.” Let us define unjust harm as all harm which is not defensive, or harm that is not reasonable, and proportionate to the level of violence that it is defending against, I.e., it is excessive. Government endures only by unjust harm, specifically coercion, deception, and stealth. Those are the mechanisms of control. Enabling harm may not be as wrong as causing it, but it is still wrong. Put simply, supporting government enables the harm which it causes, and it is wrong.

[@jonas3333]

Question 1: The husband & wife are one unit and will be charged the same. The verdict itself would take some consideration that it was an allowed practice and require some kind of payback to the affected parties (slaves) in the form of relinquishment of partial property and/or indentured servitude to the affected parties for a time. Question 2: Would fight this as I have been vocally against what our corrupt government does & have tried to spread awareness of it's crimes/involvement. However, at some point, self responsibility would/should require some kind of volunteer reparation for those who have been so completely destroyed by this system. Question/s of my own: I support Voluntaryism/Anarchy under Natural Law. Was the Civil Rights Movement a terrible mistake in general or just under our current "democratic" structure? We face a large portion of the population that would quickly take advantage of those of us who were trying to build a society without government. What can be done about that?

[@MissRedneckAnarchist]

You've described God on judgement day. "Why did you support men who only did evil? Did not I and my son warn you against trusting in kings?"

[@Somberdemure]

Religions = mind control.

[@MissRedneckAnarchist]

@Someone-de3ln 1 Samuel 8...Luke 22:25-27.. They are earthly kings who only do evil.

[@poxpower]

Here's another one: You and your friends were stuck in jail. The warden gave you a vote for the lunch: Buffalo turds or hamburgers. It's a 50-50 split and you have the deciding vote. Do you abstain because "voting supports the institution of jails" or do you vote for the hamburgers?

[@LarkenRose]

Voting for hamburgers doesn't empower and legitimize authoritarian violence. Voting for candidates does.

[@poxpower]

But states get their power from violence, not votes. There's many forms of states that have no voting. If tomorrow North Koreans got the right to vote on what size hat to wear, it doesn't mean that Koreans who participate in this vote now legitimize being enslaved.

[@poxpower]

@@fahqahsowl6498 I obey the laws because they threaten me, not because they let me vote on random stuff.

[@msspacecake121]

Aye, my halfling sister is trying to make me homeless. She is a psychologist shrink and has had many stabbies on top of everything... also she was a heroin addict 😞 so sad She is after the wealth my mother and father left behind when they died... Sadly she always said she would never help them when they were actually alive 😓

[@UmaROMC]

Buy easily... misplaced assets like say, metals and then report their theft to the police. No insurance claims of course, you are no fraudster. You just want it on record that you sadly lost a good chunck of those means due to unfortunate and unforeseeable circumstances. Remember I'm a random weirdo on the net, and not a source of proper legal advice, I just talk too much about what I think I would do...

[@borissmolden5040]

This is a tough one. There's many unknown factors and nuances. First priority, I think , when a crime is committed, legal, or otherwise would be to make the victim whole. Could the slave owner and his wife compensate the victim, or the victims decendents some how? 2nd thing to think about when a crime is committed, is punishment going to be a deterrent? Personally, I don't believe in revenge. I understand the emotion of revenge. I'm probably capable of it in a passionate moment, but logically causing more pain serves no purpose, if it doesn't deter future crime. Also, is the person remorseful? Do they understand what they did was wrong? Are they intelligent enough to understand what they did was wrong? In either case, the slaveowner, his wife, the voter, all are culpable for their crimes. I guess I'm copping out on a firm answer. I just can't honestly give an answer without asking more questions. There are so many variables. ALL are guilty, but to what degree? I believe in victim compensation, when possible. I am also willing to forgive someone who is truly remorseful and/or was too simple minded to understand the immorality of their actions. I would have to trust my intuition and my observational skills to come up with an appropriate response. All that aside. My verdict would be guilty on all accounts, even though I may choose not to punish.

[@diogenes9295]

The first priority is to render the aggressor harmless. Your others are secondary.

[@darrellernst5493]

This is no challenge. Both the plantation owners wife and the Voluntarist who paid taxes were enablers and therefore are just as guilty as the perpetrators. A law and an a order are identical and just as saying I was just following orders is never an excuse neither is saying I was just following the law . A order is what is given by one man to another and a law is an order given by a small group of people to the population at large.

[@diogenes9295]

That's right. Handing over your purse at gunpoint is complicit consent.

[@darrellernst5493]

@@diogenes9295 I doubt very seriously that you have ever had a gun in your face while filling out your W2 form.

[@diogenes9295]

@@darrellernst5493 We both know that, effectively, there is a gun in the room.

[@darrellernst5493]

@@diogenes9295 you have provided an excuse but you haven't offered a justification. All you are saying is that you value your life and comforts over anyone else. Do you really think this is ever going to end by people yielding to fears of consequences ? Some say the government ends up with 50 % of your income or more so is your son or grandson supposed to rise up when it is 75 % because you were afraid of consequences ? Or is the grandson supposed to pay 75% taxation because of fear of consequences ?

[@darrellernst5493]

@@diogenes9295 60,000 people in India went to prison just to win the right from the British to gain the right to spin their own cloth. You can't afford a piece of cloth anymore and you aren't willing to take a stand. Next time you are strolling through Walmart take a look at the price of a yard of cloth.😂

[@badseed1262]

Explanation: I own myself = I rule myself = anarchy wrong. Larken...you aren't gonna go anarchy evangelical on me...are you? So, christian evangelicals say your actions don't get you to heaven...just accept Jesus...wait...isn't accepting Jesus an action? Larken...no rulers...just self-rule...but no rulers...see I have the t-shirt...I miss the t-shirt.

[@LarkenRose]

Put down the bong long enough to see if you can type out an entire coherent sentence.

[@nu1x]

The mafia wife thought experiment - the wife is as evil as the husband, because the literal job of the wife is to sponsor her husband with the most important thing in married life - love. Her job is to love her husband. If her husband is evil, she loves evil. That makes her as evil, in general, in my opinion. Because without her motivating her husband in such a way, he may become disillusioned by his own actions, and yet his wife would perpetually re-motivate him.

[@daveconrad6562]

Shit I'm just as guilty as Biden

[@scenFor109]

Yes. You may be able to repent - completely de-register as a voter.

[@23Skeetoo]

Yee-hah!

[@LivelysReport]

Neither get a single second of punishment, and the case is dismissed immediately, as its what is known as EX POST FACTO.. what they did at the time was lawful.. You can not make up laws after the fact to try someone down the line for what they did in the past which was lawful or legal at that time.. The wife in the situation could not be charged at all since she took no part in the slavery.. you may say she benefited from some of the slavery which took place, but then so do a lot of people who might buy crops or goods produced by the slaves that get sold on the market and they might get a better price for them goods.. do you take everyone to jail who might have benefited in some way from the slavery which took place on that plantation? Of coarse not.. its the same as the modern day sweat shops outside of America.. you might be able to make a big profit from the sweat shops being an owner of the business.. I recall Kathy Gifford had her brand of clothing being made over seas, and they were talking about the conditions of the sweat shops the clothing was being made at.. she simply did her own PR to try and clear that up, but its a bad look for her, but its not illegal either to hire people in other nations for pennies and work them long hours.. they were not being forced to work, they agreed to work.. but I do think shedding a light upon such helps to bring better conditions for workers when its brought to light!! As far as voting in government agents who commit crimes of wars, they should all be punished.. the international courts are there for a reason, but it seems we just refuse to use such when it comes to wars in recent times.. not since ww2 have we really used the international courts to try leaders for their war crimes.. if we did, Bush and Cheney, and the English prime ministers and Israeli prime ministers would all be arrested and tried in the international courts for their crimes against humanity.. and If I was on that court as a judge, they would all be found guilty and would be hung till dead.. In the end, it will all come down to what the laws of God are, because we are All going to be judged by God come judgement day.. nobody on this earth ever gets away with anything.. the reason for doing something about what happens here now, is so others can no longer be hurt and injured by those who are both injuring and harming others.. but even when people like Bush and Cheney do not get punished in this life time, they will be punished quite severely come judgement day.. so they are not getting away with anything!! And I will leave off there..

[@LarkenRose]

What "law" says has absolutely no bearing on right and wrong. Someone can bitch about "ex post facto" all they want for committing war crimes. They're still 100% personally culpable for what they personally did. "The law" is just bullshit mythology, pretending that the dictates of political parasites is somehow some magical thing that others have an obligation to obey.

[@smartasspatriot445]

I think both are wrong and both venefited from it. I cant help think women weren't sern as slaves, but they didn't have a say in matters, often to whom they married. And were not considered in decision making, business and pretty much chattel. But the cruelty seen I would have bern shot right off the bat because I would vocalize, try to leave back to my family. Trying to free slaves would be awesome. The humane thing would be to try to voice some humanity and heart and try not to be a part of it. Im just learning of voluntarism but I haven't participated in the system and I am looking for a reasonable, free liveable way of life. Looking to head for the hills for the moment, but in the long run, what we have is a mess. Dont want either. Thats why Im here listening carefully. And your latest book just arrived, so tomorrow is a good day. Im surprised Im alive and not penned at 62. Great thought exercise!!!

[@deoccultist]

I posted a long response here, did an edit, and got an error. Now the comment is gone. Is it gone on your end?

[@deoccultist]

@Someone-de3ln Yeah, I did that... disappeared again. So I just made a Twitter post.

[@vadr1651]

How about the opposite experiment: _you_ are transfered back to the times when slave ownership was morally acceptable, and _you_ are tried for what you do today - according to the principles and laws of that time? What makes you think that your moral and values are is superior to their own - the positive sign of the time difference? Or, going in the opposite direction - when you are transfered to the future, you assume that your ideology wins, and the future judge rules according to your ideas. What if it's the other way around? you never know, and then _you_ may be up for the same shock as the poor slave owner tried by the laws he wouldn't even think were possible. There are tribes where cannibalism is morally acceptable, there were or maybe even are tribes where sacrificing your girls is acceptable. Whether you like it or not, they have their own right to live according to their own morals, and you are simply not in position to judge them.

[@LarkenRose]

"Whether you like it or not, they have their own right to live according to their own morals, and you are simply not in position to judge them." Absolute and utter nihilistic bullshit, start to finish. And almost no one who spouts this crap even believes it. So let's test your claim. If someone shows up at YOUR house, and decides that what he should do is torture and murder you and your family, do you think his "moral code" is just as valid as yours? Do you think he's NOT at all bad or wrong for doing that? It's just a difference in arbitrary preferences?

[@LarkenRose]

By the way, the bullshit icing on the bullshit nihilist cake is when moral nihilists first pretend that there's no such thing as right and wrong, and then turn around and say that it's WRONG to judge someone else. Do you not even notice how bonkers that is? According to you, the ONLY actually bad thing, is to judge something as wrong.

[@vadr1651]

@@fahqahsowl6498 If you prefer to call that ethics, it's your choice. The assumption that slavery is bad, or cannibalism is bad, is certainly man-made, while the _nature_ is saturated with the species of one kind eating another in the most cruel ways. Speaking of the terminology, the dictionary definition of morals is "a _person's_ standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.". Nothing "natural" here.

[@vadr1651]

@@LarkenRose You are moving the subject from _socially acceptable_ to individual "someone". In your own video you stressed many times that what the slave owner did was A-OK at his time - not because of his individual decision, but because it was the norm. But now here you are, assuming with the typical American arrogance that _your_ values is the universal golden standard for everybody, and apparently not even for the whole world, but even for all times past and future, and _you_ are in position to judge others. And the next arrogant step is your assumption that it's _your_ ideas that will certainly prevail, just give it some time. But what if you lose and they judge you? You may not survive. Ironically enough, you are putting yourself in position of your own quote "There would be a difference between “rule of law” and “rule of men” only if the so-called “laws” were written by something other than men." - assuming that it's your own ideology that "is written by something other than men".

[@vadr1651]

@@LarkenRose "there's no such thing as right and wrong" - there certainly is, subject to the specific circle where you live. People live in societies, in case you did not know, and societies impose their limitations and their systems of values. The balance between individual freedoms and society rules is far from black and white.

[@jabba0975]

Judge not.

[@antyrak7905]

That's pretty crappy take to be honest. You try to equalise a slave owner and a voooter. Average vooter didn't go out stealing stuff, they didn't go ordering people to be thrown in cage or killed for "not paying their fair share" they just unknowingly participated in a ritual they thought mattered and genuinely believed it was for the greater good. That ritual didn't matter at the end, but the voooters were taught it did, from their very birth. They belived lying psychopaths about 12 days to flatten the curve. They believed everything the media said.... and why shouldn't they? They were taught that they should believe reputable sources, they were told what those reputable sources were(media and the government). They believed this way the way to influence the policy. They weren't voting for the military to be killing innocents, they were told it was a necessary thing to bring peace and stability to the region. You can't hold the voooters accountable just for voooting.

[@diogenes9295]

If you hire a goon to break into my house, you are guilty of burglary. If you vooote for slavery, you are guilty of slavery. If you vooote to force people to take the shot, you are guilty of assault. If you vooote to support the military, you are guilty of all of that crime.

[@levchenkovfedor1243]

Ok, let me try. 1) I never voted to institute taxation. Taxation was already in place and there is no argument that refraining from vote can somehow make it go 2) I voted for a guy who promised less evil, less violence, less suffering for innocent, more protection. Who could know that he would do the same? On their words they are not doing the same. 3) You take a period of time, when millions of people were victimized, extorted, murdered, thousands of houses destroyed, starvations going and so on. Why are you being that knowledgible about all these conditions putting your blame on the man who literally put a sign on a piece of paper? But not on the people doing any of that violence? Voting isnt an act of aggression. Evil done on my behalf is still on those who has done.

[@levchenkovfedor1243]

@@fahqahsowl6498 Bad logic. No voting isnt equal to giving them permission. When the tax collector comes he does not ask you "did you vote, sir? Or can I take your money?" They dont ask for permissions, this is the reality of government. They never do.

[@FuriosaSonoran]

Well... This is interesting. Most ppl were not wealthy enough to have servants or own slaves, and not all slave owners were abusive. Owning slaves, and abusing those same slaves are different subjects, really. Even though the slaves were not there consensually. Additionally, wives were often considered the literal property of their husband. Ambrose Bierce defines husband in the Devils Dictionary as: "one who, having dined, is charged with the care of the plate". Concisely, we're all slaves. However, most of those who end up with any amt of power (actual or imagined), not only have some strong psychopathic traits (research has been done on this)... they typically don't even realize that they're slaves also. Just like the slave master is a slave to the socialized norms of his time, and the burdens of labor for his property or prosperity. It's pretty ironic. I know it's gonna sound nihilistic... But it's not necessary to justify anything, and there's not justification. There's not a huge point in trying to justify things especially with majority rules... IMHO. And historically, it's often the outliers who have the capacity to inspire the most change- OR, they're systematically and summarily slaughtered (as seems to be the case more often), "canceled", etc... Frequently, it's BOTH.

[@imulippo5245]

I absolutely love this kind of table flipping!

[@normalsee4447]

As I recognized some years ago, voting for “the lesser of two evils” is still voting for evil. Thanks for another terrific reminder of that fact.

[@scottmatznick3140]

Great evils are perpetrated with money collected from taxes. I would argue that those who pay taxes knowing the things which are done should be held accountable. I wrote my comment during the first part of the experiment.

[@patrickrobinson7541]

Well no because in the scenario which he gave you’re not going to be thrown in a cage for not being a slave master but you are thrown in a cage if you don’t pay taxes. Giving someone money at the point of a gun is different than being a slave master

[@KatyWantsToGo]

If everyone stops funding this crap thru federal taxation we’d make strides quickly! I stopped funding those crooks years ago. Now my main goal in life is to get as much back as I possibly can while showing others how to do the same…

[@memecoinmafia2732]

it's not enough to stop paying tax ......you also have to stop using their money !

[@KatyWantsToGo]

@@memecoinmafia2732 true but we have to start somewhere right?

[@livewire2759]

@@KatyWantsToGo How exactly did you stop paying federal taxes? How do you avoid getting prosecuted? I'm "another"... please show me how to do the same. I don't want to fund those crooks anymore either.

[@innercynic2784]

The absurdity of this argument, and I'm sure that Larken knows full well what it is, is that we have people putting themselves into the position of being a "moral arbiter" when they have no business doing so whatsoever. They are in fact as guilty as anyone else throughout history of "judging" when it is not their place. You learn from the past in order not to repeat the errors of it. We have to move beyond or else we are simply repeating the same self destructive loops.

[@PhamVan-gr6hr]

1. Morality is objective through time. 2. Slave master gets death sentence. 3. Slave masters wife: consider the innocent bystander concept, explored in Seinfeld finale. No such thing as an innocent bystander under natural law. Every conscious person has the duty to stop harm. Punishment: ?

[@martiendejong8857]

My defense would be that I understand that I cannot defeat the system so I try where I can to not be part of it and use my resources to work on alternatives. this is the most productive option.

[@martiendejong8857]

@@fahqahsowl6498 thank you

[@UmaROMC]

OK, playing along Scenario 1: the slave-owner owes restitution to ALL his slaves, as any thief owes restitution (reiumbursement + compensation). The measure of this would be determined by things like reason, precedent, input of the victims, etc. The wife will have to be judged seperately for what SHE did. Not what she "benefitted from". If I come to you in the street and give you an ounce of gold I stole without your knowledge, then the gold is NOT YOURS but you are also NOT A THIEF. If you did know, that'd be akin to something like fencing, which is also illicit, even though the violation of rights is not direct. THAT would be the grounds for determining the need and extent for restitution on the wife's part. All that the slaves produced is like stolen good. Did she sell those stolen goods? Eat them? Partake or utilize them in some way? If so.... fencing-adjacent it is then. All of this is NOT PUNISHMENT. Where would you get the right to punish people from? You have a right to what's yours, what is right is right, and this is in principle determinable, even though reality can complicate things, and RESTORATION of right is what JUSTICE is ABOUT. One further thing: I would be willing to be judge only if both parties (victim and perp) willingly subject themselves to my court, and contractually bind themselves by my ruling (with a cop-out clause if they both think im crazy maybe). If they do not do this, there is no conflict-avoidance, there is simply still conflict. Only when parties wish to avoid physical conflict that right has any meaning. If two people want to go and knife*fight to the death in a ring, so be it, not my business. Wouldn't want it on my property and probably wouldn't live in a community that does such things, but those are within MY RIGHTS, forcing people to abide by my will is not. WIll respond to this comment for second scene

[@UmaROMC]

Yeah yeah, people believe a lot of wrong crap, and probably so do I, but the fact that authority is a delusion and slavery unjustifiable can actually already be found in god-damned Aristotle, even though he himself flaked out just as badly by contradicting his own ideals and principles with his obviously reaching-as-hell concepts like "the virtue of the slave" So people had the info two, three thousand years ago, and a lot of them were cowards like aristotle, or spineless and dull like YOU (addressing the slaveowner). Right is right, reality is reality, and in reality you do NOT control your slaves, you TERRORIZE them, you do not OWN them you IMPRISON THEM and STEAL FROM THEM. This court here is YOUR CHANCE to be a part of the POLIS again, the political space. If you do not find an acceptable mediator for restitution between you and your VICTIMS then they have every right to merely TAKE THE RESTITUTION WHICH THEY ARE OWED, which they in re OWN. I believe you will find that whatever solution I come to will be much less physically hazardous to your health and property than having a bumch of your former victims come and take what they feel they are owed.

[@UmaROMC]

2nd part: I voted ONCE. I called myself an anarchist by the time I was 15, though the socialists still had their claws in me. Then, while I grew older and disabused of the socialist lies, I also left my anarchist convictions degrade. I was never a convinced statist, but I wish I could claim I never spouted the statist "It's the best we have" cringe bs, and I fully admit that makes it worse. I admit to paying my taxes. I paid them what they demanded of me in paper, and most they got from my boss directly even. But I spent the majority of my life making myself actively unpopular by continually confronting people with the uncomfortable lies we all lived in, and I advocated AND LIVED a life based on right as far as I could do so. I never advocated war by a state, never supported it in any way but the taxes stolen/extorted from me. If you, judge, can point me out my victims, people who I have violated or have direclty, knowingly and willingly benefited from violating, then I am willing to offer restitution and negotiate terms for doing so, but one of those terms will be that before the judgment is enacted,the tables be turned so we may see if the other party is truly without sin. I would not even need their restitution, I would probably even be willing to take that hit to make the point, to set an example, but unless that point be made, and unless you bring my victims or their rightful heirs before me, with proof of their claims, you have NO "authority" over me by right.

[@mattmill30]

2:50 - Trial by Jury of Peers. All your peers are dead? Ok, do you want more peers? No, then be an outlaw. Yes, can I interest you in _citizenship_ ? 5:10 - No case. Two-became-one union? See 1st answer

[@stehpflanze4771]

I think the answer is what you said. You would need to KNOW that you are doing evil. That is why it is so hard to judge evil done by psychopaths. They lack the empathy, the moral compass, that would tell them what they are doing is evil. Most people today do not view themselves as slaves, and they do not feel oppressed. In their mind, statism is completely justified. I would argue the slave owner couldn't be charged, as he may very well have believed that blacks were lesser beings--non-human--just live livestock.

[@diogenes9295]

So..... a psychopath grapes your kid, but he gets a pass because he doesn't know any better.

[@stehpflanze4771]

@@diogenes9295 What exactly do you mean by "he gets a pass". Are you talking about punishment? Who says it is morally justified to now punish the person, and how, exactly? Or are you talking about giving him a pass in terms of not classifying his actions as evil? Here I must ask, what exactly constitutes an evil action? Don't you use your own moral compass to decide? So what if he didn't have one? What if, to him, he really didn't do anything evil, because he genuinely does not understand the suffering he caused. Now, obviously the situation is tragic, and I would say the action was evil from MY point of view. But I do not think there is a universal definition for "evil".

[@diogenes9295]

@@stehpflanze4771 1- Render harmless. 2- Make whole 3- Deterrence 4- Punishment 234- The aggressor's thoughts

[@corby1228]

People can’t think their way out of a wet paper sack

[@Destro7000]

The Wife is innocent. The Ancap/voluntaryist/libertarian dude is innocent.

[@tarmotaipale5704]

Another thing I would point out in such a trial is that if coercion and government are wrong, then the court itself is also criminal. It imposes its own rules on people who might disagree, thus it aggresses against my self-ownership, and such an entirely illegitimate court can't judge me in any way, at least morally speaking

[@kohnfutner9637]

Can i vote for the end of the belief in human authority and the end of evil? This seems a bit like a logical fallacy of appealing to emotions. I understand the premise you're making but not voting isn't going to keep idiots from believing in human authority and order followers from following orders. It sounds like you're saying, if you don't vote evil will stop automatically. I never voted except for Trump and i know he is a know nothing, he worships the military, loves money and advocates religious superstition. Yet, he was better at keeping peace than Biden's gang. What do you suggest, Yoda Rose? Tell me something that really makes sense on a way to make things right. I try to talk to people who are willing to listen but this is a zombie apocalypse of willfully ignorant zombie golems.

[@jjemsnd7]

As usual your logic is unassailable. I came to my voluntaryism through my Christianity you cannot love your neighbor as yourself as Christ commanded us to and participate in government. Government is violence, government is force, Government breaks all the ten commandments. God tried to warn us and for Samuel chapter 8, you can't embrace Christ by embracing what he rejected in Matthew 4. A kingdom divided cannot stand. You cannot build the institutions of the world ie government and the kingdom of Christ at the same time.

[@Burnt-ve8bv]

Man, been since btc space 2015.

[@ericpitsenberger3134]

Guilty do no harm. Treat others as you would want to be treated if you don't want to be a slave? You can't be a slave master!! The wife is guilty. How can you watch and not do anything about it.?

[@PonziZombieKiller]

It's all gunna crash like a mofo anyways...

[@KatyWantsToGo]

Crash implies something unexpected or unavoidable, what “they” are doing is carefully orchestrated chaos so that “they” can bring the order, that’s what it looks like to me anyway…

[@PonziZombieKiller]

@KatyWantsToGo yeah... we is doomed

[@KatyWantsToGo]

@@PonziZombieKiller what kind of ammo are you using on the zombies?🤔

[@PonziZombieKiller]

@@KatyWantsToGo 357mag

[@KatyWantsToGo]

@@PonziZombieKiller OK, then my AR10 should suffice…

[@01egna]

There is a scale and Intent is the key. This situation though very different could be examined by considering another old fashioned parallel that is not so distant such as the physical punishment of children. There are many of us old enough to know that the physical punishment of children was just the way things were half a century ago and the further back in time we look, the more severe was the practice. Today in the UK social services are likely to intervene and remove children if such an environment exists in their family home. The parallel question might be, what was the intent of the parent who was physically punishing their children? In overly simplified terms, for example, was the parent a lazy drunk who abused the institution of the physical punishment of children in order to take out their own frustrations on their children, or was the parent an extremely loving parent who suffered greatly themselves in the administration of such punishment and only administered it under the mistaken assumption that it was for their children's own good? Was this slaver a particularly evil character who derived sadistic pleasure from the abuse of slaves, or was he simply part of a society where slavery was accepted but nevertheless was a decent person who did not abuse his position and was generally compassionate and took care of his slaves? Did absolute power corrupt him absolutely, or to what degree? The same test goes for the wife. Given the norms of the time, did she conduct herself as a compassionate human being, or was she callously indifferent? I think that as you described it, the wife’s should be judged by the axiom, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” The wife is clearly guilty in that sense, the question is, to what degree and was she in danger if she spoke up and to what degree? Now that this couple out of time has been reanimated in our time, they should be judged if only to acclimate them to our norms, if only to inform them, x is and y is not acceptable in society today and they should have a relevant time scale to reflect on our society's view of their actions. It could be that they are sentenced to a year of therapy to help them adjust, or that they are judged to be evil, even given the norms of their own time and relative to their peers and then incarcerated indefinitely. It is a matter of intent and of degrees and we owe both a duty to our own society in releasing them into it, if we decide to do that and also a duty to them to help them assimilate.

[@jason9414]

I notice that as a thought experiment, not many actually answer. I would find the slave master guilty, that's obvious. His wife, I would find guilty of the same, she was complicit in the act by not doing anything, proof is she benefited from the torture of the slaves. A life taken by the slave master is a life taken by the wife. now then, this is where i think some would stray. punishment for the slave master could only be his death but some would say the wife did not commit the act so punishment would be a lesser degree, say life in prison. this is subjective morality though. with objective morality the only punishment for the wife is the same as the slave master. Now bring this forward to us on trial, the only logical conclusion is that we must be punished in the same way since you can not differ from objective morality whether you were a statist in the past and voluntarism now. we are as guilty as the wife of the slave master until such time as people no longer subscribe to authoritarianism and totalitarianism.

[@supplanterjim]

As judge, I would demand that the whippers (the order-followers) be put on trial, as they rightly bear the brunt of the responsibility of the evil enterprise. Happily, I'm no judge.

[@badseed1262]

You missed the point...Larken is saying you are part of the enterprise...you judge yourself guilty. What was your sentence order-follower? This is assuming you're a citizen of virtually any country

[@supplanterjim]

@@badseed1262 : Bless you; I *_predicted_* your comment. I exactly did *_not_* miss Larken's point. And I am *_still_* not a judge. If you are a reader, check out the short story "The Egg", by Andy Weir.

[@EM-mr3sg]

We are all slaves now.

[@daveconrad6562]

What if we break free?

[@Shudog99]

thank you.

[@Mr.McKool]

There is no justification. Only admission of participation. To the degree one shows remorse, and a willingness/commitment to change for the betterment of others, is the degree in which one may be forgiven. My opinion of course.

[@Mr.McKool]

@@fahqahsowl6498 very thoughtful. I agree. Moving forward means moving together. But as an individual, we must take responsibility. There is a bridge of communication built when we acknowledge our participation in this realm, no matter how dark and desperate. In the quest of Humanity, is a recognition and understanding that perfection is an unattainable goal, but a worthwhile endeavor. Giving grace, and forgiveness to ourself, and eachother on this sojourn, is a unifying experience. It starts with I. And how I participate. Owning up to the flaws and atoning for repercussions. Nobody is perfect. But if you strive to be better, then there is always room for forgiveness. (My opinion)

[@davedismantled]

The wife is complicit in the crime, just as voters are complicit. If there was no statute of limitations in my trial, I would be guilty by complicity in the crimes of Statism, as I did use to vote.

[@degatagauwatie4073]

If voting actually changed anything, it would be illegal.

[@badseed1262]

In the example Larken said it was legal. What crime? Let's just pretend your are holier than thou and would've been the beacon of hope 400 years ago...oh...no...you wouldn't be...because you aren't now. Or...sorry...I jumped to judgement...how are you the beacon of hope now?

[@iCanSeeWhatMostCant]

Excellent thought experiment. I've never voted for, or *consensually* given or received any resources to or from, any government. Thankfully I woke myself up before I had the chance to fuck up.

[@iCanSeeWhatMostCant]

@fahqahsowl6498 haha! Nice assumptions. I'm very proud of the facts I stated.

[@iCanSeeWhatMostCant]

@@fahqahsowl6498 Your ESP is terrible.

[@memecoinmafia2732]

you're assuming revenge is a good idea

[@LarkenRose]

No, I'm not.

[@memecoinmafia2732]

@Someone-de3ln is that a fancy word for revenge ?

[@martiendejong8857]

This is like Roko' basilisk except we are the basilisk

[@IrishBoondockSaint]

Ok in part one of this thought experiment. the time machine scenario if I went back in time I would recuse myself from the case. In a Chiro scenario I would dismiss the case. In part two of the thought experiment. I don't have an answer yet as I find it hard to condem some one for something I was also guilty of

[@robertmiller5835]

You’re on a role brother.

[@adrianahuls4983]

Very good!!

[@Igotitrightagain]

Every person is responsible for their own voluntary actions. My wife has no culpability for my actions nor I hers.

[@davedismantled]

The wife is a complicit gang member. Just like a person who only drives the car in a robbery. The driver doesn't go in the bank, doesn't threaten anyone or steal anything themselves. The driver just drives those that do. He doesn't drive away when the robbery is committed. He waits till they are done and drives them away. Complicit in the crime of robbery or not?

[@Igotitrightagain]

@@davedismantled someone who greases the wheels on the jet they know will bomb innocent people as guilty as the pilot. Their wives and kids are not. When my wife leaves home and commits some wrongful act, she alone is responsible even if I knew or suspected she was going to do it. I would try to talk her out of it but in the end she makes her own decisions and bears the consequences. Driving then car to the bank is participating just like the wheel greaser.

[@ME-pb2gf]

No one is a slave though. Slaves were hunted down and brought back to the plantation. If you leave I promise no one will drag you back kicking and screaming.

[@earthwormzim]

Since a "none of the above" option is never given, and since, even if it was, a "none-of-the-above" option might result in the worse of two evils being elected, in an attempt to minimize harm to myself as well as others, I vote for the lesser of two evils, under duress, and in self-defense.

[@jeffleishman1553]

the funny part is its 2024 and we still have slaves and we all know that and nobody really cares as lone as they are not the slaves

[@diogenes9295]

..... As long as I am not participating in that slavery.