Explaining Nocturne's True Demon Ending

[@Plasmyte]

Just a little heads up, I felt the parts speaking of SMT4 were very necessary to get the point of this video across, but if you'd still like to view this video without spoiling yourself on SMT4 here are the timestamps. Spoilers start at 2:16 and end at 3:03 With that aside, thanks for taking the time to watch this video :)

[@zeeadmirale1881]

Finally! I am not the one who sees TDE as thematic True Ending to Nocturne, and not just "haha punch god to his face" or "cool but inferior to Freedom".

[@blackfox7309]

In another smt they confirmed he went to fight god and lost

[@deathfliez627]

@@blackfox7309 What game was that?

[@zeeadmirale1881]

@@blackfox7309 and? Even if Demi-fiend lost the battle against YHWY, it's doesn't change it meaning. It's still a right choice.

[@zeeadmirale1881]

@@blackfox7309 and yeah, Kagestuchi still a god, at least his sort of avatar.

[@blackfox7309]

@@zeeadmirale1881 I was referring to the fact that due to the Demi fiend fight in a future game it confirms the true demon ending

[@Phantom_of_Black]

To me, Nocturne probably has the best version of Lucifer and the best "version" of the alignment system in the Reasons. The thing that most annoys me about the alignments in other SMT games is that frequently the versions of the world created by Law and by Chaos are very similar to each other as they both tend to result in hierarchical power structure being imposed on the world. The main difference being that Law has a more formal and stable structure which comes with a fuck of a lot more bigotry (especially of the religious variety). While Chaos may be more accepting and have a society where potentially anyone can succeed, most people would still be oppressed by those more powerful than them and how good their life is depends largely on who's the one carrying the biggest stick. This ends up making it so that Neutral is more like Chaos than Chaos. Chiaki's reason "Yosuga" is the closest Nocturne comes to a representative of one of the alignments as a world of Yosuga would be one of elitism with a rigid power structure most similar to Law (which is why the Angels end up supporting her) though her ideas of strong oppressing the weak make her sound a bit like Chaos. Lucifer is the other big difference in this installation as he is at his least hypocritical (the other versions of him being just the Chaos faction's leader) and honestly reminds me of my favorite version of this character - Lucifer in his self-titled comic book published by DC Vertigo. DC Lucy has an explicit bone to pick with the Presence as he sees the very idea of predetermination as antithetical to freedom and the entire comic is about his struggle to escape God's plan. Nocturne Lucifer has a similar motivation to undermine the Great Will's plans (Kagutsuchi calls him "drunk on freedom") so he's satisfied with any outcome that doesn't result in one of the Reasons being implemented (TD and Freedom). They are the explicit versions of the new world approved by it which makes their success predetermined after a fashion while the failure of the other reason candidates also being unavoidable (Takao and Futomimi). EDIT: When I first made this comment I was only familiar with Lucifer's appearances in Nocturne, SMT4 and Apocalypse. So when I'm saying that Nocturne's version is the least hypocritical I'm really just calling SMT4's version a hypocrite.

[@GaeaRage0798]

I'd say Lucifer's best (and least hypocrite) version is the one from SMT2, since he advocates for humanity's freedom, and actively tries to save it from Satan & YHVH. Also SMT2 depicts Chaos as humanity's freedom over God's tyranny, instead of Social Darwinism, in fact both Chaos and Neutral are very alike in that game, the only tinny diference is whether Lucifer joins you (Chaos) or tests you (Neutral).

[@Phantom_of_Black]

@@GaeaRage0798 I was only familiar with Lucy's appearance here and in SMT 4 and Apocalypse where he is explicitly villainized (though I would argue that the Chaos ending is still preferable to the Law one in those two). I didn't know until after I made this comment that he's basically the D&D equivalent to Chaotic Good in SMT 2. I'm still not familiar enough with SMT2 to judge whether he's more ideologically consistent there than in Nocturne. Due to my own beliefs I'm inclined to say that SMT 2's Lucifer is probably more "correct" than the Nocturne one but I still expect to find the Nocturne one to be a better character (again because he reminds me quite a lot of DC Lucifer).

[@2tehnik]

> the versions of the world created by Law and by Chaos are very similar to each other as they both tend to result in hierarchical power structure being imposed on the world. What is the hierarchical power structure in Law? Can you name endings which exemplify it? I guess one would be inclined to say that it's sth like God>humanity. But that doesn't seem to be a concrete expression of political power in any law ending. There's the society and its structure, and that's pretty much it.

[@Phantom_of_Black]

@@2tehnik Um, the fact that you would always be subject to the hierarchy of God > Angels > Humans. The Angels themselves have an explicit hierarchy based on which angels are the closest to YHWH - Seraphs (including named angels like Uriel, Aniel, Merkabah) at the top > Cherubs/Thrones > Thrones/Cherubs > Virtues > Powers > Principalities > Unnamed Archangels > Angels. Or how about Mikado being a religious theocracy explicitly created to be such by the 4 Archangels - it's society goes Angels (same hierarchy among them) > Clergy > King > Luxurors (Aristocracy) > Casualries (Peasants).

[@2tehnik]

@@Phantom_of_Black > Um, the fact that you would always be subject to the hierarchy of God > Angels > Humans. Yeah, but the function of angels is purely executive. Once the world comes to be, they're pretty much just not there. The angel hierarchy, likewise, is irrelevant to how human society is actually run in Law. > Angels (same hierarchy among them) Merkabah dies. And whether other angels would have any functions is ambiguous at best. > King > Luxurors (Aristocracy) > Casualries (Peasants) Removed by the angels when they come back. I mean, the whole Beelzebub quest line is there because they exiled king Ahazuya. And the structure wasn't even there in the first place because of them, but rather because of neutrals interfering. I'm not sure if you played/saw clipped wings 1 and 2, along with knowing about Mikado's history told through npcs and the Obelix. But, to put it briefly, Akira got to the top of the dome, the archangels let him in, and then he conspired with Mastema and time-travel Flynn to fight and capture the archangels and put 3 of them into the Kagome tower. After which he became the first king of Mikado. IVA even points back to all of this in a weird way by saying how it takes long to remove class structures. To me that seems like a retcon, I assume for Gaston to make sense as well as to make Law seem worse. But the point stays that the archangels aren't classicist (?). So, if there's anything left it'd be clergy > everyone else. But I haven't played smt IV in a long time so I'll abstain from making any specifications. I assume that either some npc talks about it or it's, again, left ambiguous.

[@Lifeinpurgatory]

I’ve only played nocturne so I can’t say if it’s a theme throughout the series, but at least in this game the writers have clearly framed what route they want you to take, Lucifer and the demons are painted in a very sympathetic light, and the blank slate main character is given no real incentive or reason by Lucifer to undertake gathering the menorahs and later pledging fealty to him. In this game and perhaps the others God is painted much like he is in Paradise Lost, as an unruly tyrant who is not allowed to be questioned. I hope the writing is done in such a way in V where there are reasons for and against each alignment and the player really has to think about the path they wanna take

[@caiosilva2167]

Ahhhhh goddammit Im so tired of people misinterpreting Paradise Lost, did ya even read the summary for it ? Lucifer and his goonies are *not* portrayed positively in it and neither is God portrayed as a bad guy, Milton was christian and wrote this story as way of explain what he perceived to be God's nature

[@fauzanabdulkahfi957]

@@caiosilva2167 give him rest he never read actual literature only listened from internet POV

[@caiosilva2167]

@@fauzanabdulkahfi957 Average Megaten fan am i right ?

[@fauzanabdulkahfi957]

@@caiosilva2167 this why you should read satan Pov with grain of salt

[@caiosilva2167]

@@fauzanabdulkahfi957 As in, Satan from SMT II ?

[@abzdeft]

I know this is some dorky shit but that ending was badass

[@Old_Harry7]

Loved the video!

[@tristen9736]

Looking back on nocturne really makes me start to believe that smt v is almost a continuation. One where lucifer succeeds in his attack against God. There's even big old Kagatsuchi balls all over Da'at. The more world based storytelling also aligns with nocturne

[@WeaponXSigma]

The conception was referenced in SMT 5 a few times.

[@killmydread]

Dlc basically confirms this tbh

[@RenegadeY]

To defend smt4, its endings and the way it frames them is very in line with earlier mainline games. Especially in 1 you're given no real reason to go for anything but neutral

[@LobselErik]

Good points, overall I think this game does something really interesting with its Reason alignments too, in other games alignments tend to be black & white with oppression in either way and this game kind of acknowledges that; Yosuga is supported by the angels, but it most easily fits into the survival of the fittest narrative that's most noticeable in many of the Chaos alignments; Shijima is founded by a literal remnant of a Chaos faction, but it's a world of stillness and order taken way too far; while Musubi is complete detachment from either, Neutrality at its most twisted; and all of these as chaotic as some may seem still work under the Greater Will of Law, it feels like an interesting critique of earlier alignments, while the endings that go against the selection of reasons also have their own little alignments of either just letting things be, go back to the status quo in hopes that humanity somehow changes things, or taking the chance and going completely against the cycle It also has this feeling that, either way there's not really any "right" answer, at least not in a world ruled by some corrupt and neglectful Greater Will, in which humanity's free will is just an illusion

[@HokutoShinkento]

Thats a great way to see them, they all are flawed interpretations of the traditional 3 endings other entries get and the only true solution is to break the whole system down, destroying it, even then with risks and consequences because otherwise it will just happen again

[@arslanmalik151]

The new easy mode is a joke large amount attack low encounter rate are at least four time exp money . So it's I guess good for late game demon grinding but you can just do it in a full moon phase from demon sacrifice .

[@Plasmyte]

I didn't even expect it to be as bad as it ended up being honestly, but it at least deters people from thinking it's any real way to experience this game imho

[@Antasma1]

I still needed it for Demi-fiend exp

[@darrenmacqueen9884]

Oh, they lowered the encounter rate in the easy mode? I'm so glad I played it on easy then. I remember loving the low encounter rate, because high random encounter rates irritate the hell out of me.

[@PJNyte]

Beating the game on merciful is whack, but USING merciful to beat the game is what I did. No way I'm paying for exp dlc or grinding on normal when i can just turn it to merciful & get loads of exp AND unlock skills. I only really used it for avoiding encounters & exp, then turning it back to normal but mostly getting levels & skills for lucifer bc he was very hard

[@Anarkyfloyd]

So the true demon ending is the ending of Devilman Lady?

[@vinigmoura]

I always thought this ending as Lucifer's reason, total anihilation of the light of creation. Because Lucifer himself is part of the cicle he couldnt do it himself, so he created Demi-Fiend, to enact his will of complete destruction and chaos. However it goes beyond, I consider it the canonical ending and Demi-Fiend apereances in other games indicates that he's trying to replicate it in every other world connected to the Amala Network. the Anti-Messiah.

[@notaboo7]

Glad to see you upload, unfortunately i have no clue what this is

[@ntrg3248]

A masterpiece

[@zainashaikh9946]

The hell you don't what smt nocturne is

[@eddibonoit]

Knowing the event that happends in smt v i think the true demon ending is the canon route and also the correct one.

[@SidOmaniax]

true demonpilled

[@benmezd]

I feel this tde ending connect more to smt v than smt iv

[@juasjuasi4750]

It is implied the world of SMT V shifted thanks for the demi fiend literally killing the YHWH of that universe. Who knows how he got out of his own universe tho.

[@jellyface401]

Have you ever heard of the Tragedy of Demi the Fiend? I thougth not is not a tale Lucifer would tell you. I do feel this is the inverse of the freedom ending where the freedom ending was promissing and hopeful this one is beyond tragic.

[@HokutoShinkento]

it wasnt hopeful, it would just restart all over again and again, this one is "hopeful" in the way that you doom yourself and take a horrible risk but for the first time truly broke the cycle and allowed something to start being done about it.

[@2tehnik]

> as it is revealed, Flynn is the reincarnation of the man that saved Tokyo from nuclear destruction using Masakado, Isn't this plot point from IVA? Not sure honestly. > And is fated to repeat this process to secure a future of mankind. Lmao what? Where do you get that? It's directly falsified by the fact that Flynn can choose different endings in IV. Like chaos, which doesn't really aim to benefit humanity. But even if you could argue that Chaos in some way saves humanity, I doubly see how the White ending does. And that's a living option obviously. The point here isn't even how good or not the endings are. Just that the fact of their existence means Flynn isn't fated to Neutral. > Neutral is the True ending "Trust me bro, it's what all the fiends on are slash megaten and elsewhere say." For real, I never found this kind of argumentation meaningful. At most you can point to IVA following after (or, in media res of) IV's neutral. And IVA (and IV to a lesser extent) shows Atlus' Neutral favoritism. But that's it. How is any of that supposed to make Neutral be the "True/default" ending? > Law is indefensible While clearly untrue. I think the biggest problem is how you just assert your biases, like before, as somehow being integral parts of the game's script. > Law is enslaving yourself to Merkabah Which is why he dies in the ending???????? Putting aside that the supposed badness of non-Neutral endings has no bearing on whether Flynn's free or not. IVA could have a Maruo ending where Maruology becomes the new state religion of Tokyo. But even if it'd suck hard what would it say about Nanashi's freedom? > Burroughs was made to find Flynn and enlist him to the revival of Tokyo Source? > he doesn't become Lucifer's slave True. However the game does present the Demifiend as gullible for just taking Lucifer's offer without even knowing what it's about. Source: Beelzebub dialogue. Also I think something else related to TDE but I can't recall what. > Law is when you serve YHVH for servitude's sake uhhhhhhhh smt II, smt nine (light and neutral law), new sjr law, Shijima. There, five examples of de facto law alignments that function in no reference to YHVH (when at the end). Not to mention this is just an incredibly stupid simplification and strawman of Law that fails to engage with its actual social ideals of egalitarianism, collectivism and a new, non-violent or self-centered humanity. Not to mention its ideas of its methods as holding a utilitarian function as opposed to divine command. Though, I'd argue that positing a dichotomy there is artificial. Since God in the Bible usually, if not always, pushes "wipe out buttons" in the context of clearing the world of Evil. Like how all the destruction in Revelation is made for the purposes of forming a utopian eternal paradise in the end (New Jerusalem). And this being something obviously and frequently referenced by Law, like when any references to millennium or the millennium kingdom are made. > History is unfree in Nocturne Why? the reason here wasn't clear. Indeed, Kagutsuchi makes it clear that his only goal is progress in general. One that can avoid Freedom's stagnation. You play up Reason endings like they conform to some submissive rule under YHVH. When, at the very least, it's not even clear what that'd constitute. To me it really just seems that it's: 1. Have Samsara exist 2. Have humanity participate in general progression so it can figure out the best way to exist (presumably). So, ironically, even though you want people to view Nocturne without the traditional alignment lenses. You can only manage to shove all this baggage regarding YHVH by projecting other smt games, like IV. Since it simply isn't implied by Nocturne. And indeed, the subtextual (buddhist) metaphysics of nocturne (check out this video if you're interested, it's pretty detailed: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKvWoKyGfrWBmbc) suggest that the Great Will is more like a metaphysical principle responsible for the actuality of Samsara (iirc). And this makes sense considering TDE is basically the paranirvana ending, it's goal is just to destroy Samsara, not care about the "future world." > Nocturne has a plot point about the old gods having been overthrown by YHVH This plot point appears a lot across Megami Tensei. But I have no idea why you say it's in Nocturne. It just isn't, and in fact ancient gods participate heavily in the Vortex world. The only faction repping angels is Yosuga, and the Great Will has Metatron. Shijima? Ahriman, Tengu and Judeo-Christian demons (presumably because of the connection to Zoroastrian Daevas). Yosuga? Repped by Baal, and also has fallen angels return to their angelic states. AND it's preceded by the mantra which is Budddhist plus a bunch of other non Judeo-Christian demons like Thor, Oni, and Yomotsu-Ikusa. > transvaluation I feel like this is trying to push the Nietzschean angle so hard it ends up just saying things pretty much unrelated to the game. Like, when does Lucifer complain about the other factions on the grounds that they're too focused on their values? What implies he would if you asked him?

[@Diego-vv2jh]

Mucho texto

[@2tehnik]

@@Diego-vv2jh Average Law fan, amirite?

[@GaeaRage0798]

For the most part, Law is pretty much the usual "Humanity bad, so let's nuke/wipe them out" from many anime antagonists that also happens to be godly figures that use that "argument" as an excuse for genocide/annihilation. YHVH, Satan (SMT2) and Merkabah (SMT4) are no different from Dartz (Yu-Gi-Oh!) or Poseidon & Hades from Saint Seiya. Also Hikawa isn't neither Law nor Chaos (Nocturnes Reason system is not the same as the Alignment one from 1, 2, SJ and 4). And even so, his Reason is no different from SEELE's Human Complementation Project, which despite of sounding nice at the start, it only leads to a stagnant and empty world where everyone lost their individuality. The other reasons aren't very good either, as they only take only one single aspect of the existence as their core. Freedom is not stagnation, quite the opposite, it's the only world with room for infinite possibilities and outcomes, it's unpredictable, and let's be honest, life is kind of empty if it has no room for unpredictability.

[@2tehnik]

@@GaeaRage0798 > as an excuse This would only be true if there was an ulterior motive to it, which there pretty much never is. > Also Hikawa isn't neither Law nor Chaos (Nocturnes Reason system is not the same as the Alignment one from 1, 2, SJ and 4). Pretty much shares the same basic collectivistic values, along with being willing to commit a cataclysmic event for the sake of it. He's only not a law rep (or a law analogue rep) if alignments are to be defined by superficial aesthetics. > And even so, his Reason is no different from SEELE's Human Complementation Project, which despite of sounding nice at the start, it only leads to a stagnant and empty world where everyone lost their individuality. Instrumentality project. Anyway, this is pretty typical neutral rhetoric. But it's something I've never seen be substantiated. Mainly the idea that individuality as we know it is some kind of inherent good. I'd also argue that individuality isn't even necessarily gone in either. In Shijima people still seem to have bodies, and in Eva, we still get distinct characters conversing post third-impact. Neither of which really makes sense if individuality is fully gone. It's just transformed in a way where (at least for the latter) the superficial barriers between people are gone, allowing for union. > Freedom is not stagnation, quite the opposite, it's the only world with room for infinite possibilities and outcomes, it's unpredictable, Ah, yes. Nothing quite as open to endless potential as closing the doors to any kind of meaningful change for humanity or the world. Can you please tell me in what ways Neutral is open to ending its status quo for something else? > and let's be honest, life is kind of empty if it has no room for unpredictability. Doesn't seem necessary. Indeed, I'd argue it's more so a flaw in the volition/desires of people as opposed to a reflection of some proper and universal value. And it is precisely this which undercuts the typical counterargument against these kinds of ideologies.

[@GaeaRage0798]

@@2tehnik My bad, I said "excuse", when what I meant to say (to all those cases) was "fallacies", because not everyone is evil, and not everyone (except for those who worship God) deserves to die, and nuking a complete civilization is not a solution. And also saying Neutral is just preserving the status quo is another falacie, since in the case of Nocturne, Hikawa's reason, although humanity's complete unification sounds nice, is still a world of stillness, where nothing happens, a dead end, Isamu is just having everyone living inside their own bubble, individualism at its extreme, another dead end, Chiaki pretty much mixes Chaos' Social Darwinism and brutality with Law's hierarchy and self-righteousness, leaving Freedom as the only viable option, since it's not a Dead End at least, it's not perfect, but that's the point, Perfection is a dead end filled with nothing but stillness and stagnation. In the case of other Neutral Endings, well, it's clear that in those Endings Demons still exist, but not the ones that instigated the conflict, and there's also evidence that just like with humans, there are both good and evil demons, so there's the possibility of building a world where both humans and demons can coexist in peace (Peace ≠ Law), instead of committing to cause that involves either carnarge or genocide.

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

what i too understand on why Lucifer accepts the freedom ending choice is that himself too wants to be free from the constant threat of the angels. with how YHVH is; that wont stop even if Lucifier is killed; just because YHVH hates the fact that just dying isn't enough to "atone" for crimes.

[@xelldincht4251]

This game was inspired by Nietzsche`s concept of the Übermensch. Morals have no meaning (Beyond Good and Evil), only the will to power matters

[@littlebabyman8494]

4:16 I think some say it was enslavement due to SMT 5 and how demifiend was discarded.

[@kaneclarke4825]

Woah what is your accent? Are you from Newfoundland?

[@Plasmyte]

I'm from Ireland lol

[@kaneclarke4825]

@@Plasmyte oh ok I couldn’t tell lawlz

[@Edski10]

Gotta say, I disagree with you there. Way I see it, all endings except TD and Freedom are Law. All reasons don't oppose YHVH, they continue His design. Freedom is the closest thing to Chaos, while in TD you become Lucifer's subordinate, if not slave.

[@jackour8167]

Lucifer's slave? Demi fiend was literally implied to be more powerful than lucifer.

[@Edski10]

@@jackour8167 Still someone who's beneath him, one who takes orders, not someone who makes their own destiny, but rather someone who exists to fulfil someone else's

[@jackour8167]

@@Edski10 not really. Lucifer literally treats Naoki as a partner. Naoki himself doesn't even need to listen to lucifer. But given they have the same goal. They woke togather.

[@GaeaRage0798]

Slave ≠ Partner Lucifer leaves up to the Demi-Fiend whether he wants to join him or not. Demi-Fiend literally has the whole Labyrinth of Amala to decide. If anything, TDE & DE would be Chaos, and Freedom is the nearest to Neutral.

[@melmelo2111]

@@Edski10 well he really does respect his slave

[@ambienadmiral]

Love this and your Texh video. Tired of seeing neutral/freedom worshippers treat the TDE as an edgy spectacle ending when it's by far the most philosophically and thematically intricate one.

[@HokutoShinkento]

only americans do that, they expect the fictional game to play by old hollywood archetypes so when the japanese game goes nuts with the god punching they take it to personally

[@fluxthemagician7928]

Hee hoo `...`

[@polyman6859]

Every other month on Twitter I see somebody bashing TDE lol.

[@jojogacha974]

So what’s the demon ending?

[@LightKing1237]

bro… I kid you not the SMT games are way more biblically accurate then the Bible itself

[@LightKing1237]

@@Nopeasaurus you heard me

[@MaledictusXCII]

True demon ending don't fit with Nocturne original vision. Atlus always get out of control with re releases.

[@benmezd]

True demon ending is director cuts

[@polyman6859]

Saying atlus’ og vision and not the director/writer’s og vision tells me everything I need to know LMAO

[@HokutoShinkento]

It objectively does, ameriburgers kids got mad at it because it went nuts with the characters and it doesnt fit with their foundamentalist view of the world based on puritans who were kicked off the uk for being to fanatical; its just a game but they take it as going against their real god irl so instead of denouncing the game they find bizarre interpretations to cope with playing it