Shin Megami Tensei: A Lost Identity

[@wonder6835]

Angels being mechanical didnt come from nowhere in smtiv. Do you never see what Sandalphon and Metatron look like? That is my only main nitpick of the vid.

[@fredalejandro9932]

Metatron and Sandalphon robotic designs do have a porpouse and that is to show that they are artificial angel, born humans and ascendened to become high heavenly beens. This robotic elements thus clash when implemented in other creatures of angelic origin because it was already stablish to be representative and exclusive of the artificial ones.

[@pablohenrique3442]

Ophanim are also mechanical, you know, and he isn't a human. To me, the reason behind these depictions for the angels is that they are mostly serving God blindly, being an robot that do whatever God says to them.

[@Neogears1312]

@@pablohenrique3442 well metatron is just a joke on how his name sounds like a robots.

[@ataridc]

Yea he made a pretty good point when he complained about the demon criticizing manga as a manga aficionado I took that personally. Shut ur mouf demon!!!!!

[@RizaLazar]

It's literally a plotpoint in SMT 2

[@TheFrikiguy]

I disagree with a lot of things here, but I still appreciate your thoughts!

[@dantemustdie00]

Seriously V's True Neutral route requires you helping out Khonsu, Amanozako, and Finn, and they just go "Fuck Them" like damn ya couldn't find a middle ground.

[@MIATeddyBear]

This was the issue I had most with the True Neutral ending.... why help all of those demons if you're just going to wipe out all demons from existence anyways? What was the point of all of those sidequests?

[@ericlueck8419]

I think Devil Survivor is such a fan favorite despite basically being a setting reboot because it keeps the darker themes of SMT. Being consequences of associating with demons, and how the human characters react to the changing world around them. The high plot and character development are constantly reinforced by the developing mythology of things we know, and the new lore with the King of Bel. The plot and interactions with demons are what drives the characters. That to me is SMT. No matter how richly detailed the writing may or may not be, the focus is on asking "if demons could be used to change the world, what would you do about it?" Even the NES Megami Tensei 2 in the constraints of 8 bit hardware had its heroes discuss and reflect upon their situation.

[@matteste]

Yea, DS was really able to blend the old with the new in a really great way. Changing things without losing sight of what made the series so special. And I wouldn't say that "dark" is the correct phrase. "Uncompromising" or "ruthless" I think might be better. No holding back or sugarcoating things, but at the same time not being miserable and knowing when to let up on the gas. That perfect balance. Sad that DS2 kinda missed the mark by contrast.

[@alsaiduq4363]

Devil survivor is not even that dark. It just a somewhat realistic to a what if scenario about a lockdown with demons involved. And its kinda amazing how close irl lockdown was back in 2019. In DeSu people have to fight for supply , find safe place to sleep, you actually have to find a charge for your COMP, water to drink , etc. Its a down to earth , somewhat, story of survivng in a lockdown for 7 days. And while does that it uses Mythology, Religion and in universe terms and concept like Magnetite, COMPs, Macca, etc all really well. DeSu 1 is like a Greatest hits collection of what mainline megaten does so well while improving on it, imo.

[@sociallyawkard5675]

@@alsaiduq4363 mainline is better,Strange Journey is right there.

[@ethanhinton4549]

Plus the alignment system, one of the series hallmarks, is considered by many to have hit its peak in Devil Survivor 1.

[@alsaiduq4363]

@@sociallyawkard5675 strange journey is my favorite mainline

[@EirikrJS]

I didn't watch the video because I disagree with any criticism of Shin Megami Tensei IV, one of my favorite games. I think any criticism of Shin Megami Tensei IV is inherently wrong, even though I've never read any of it because I refuse to engage with anyone who would say such things. I simply know in my heart that Shin Megami Tensei IV is a game with no faults and people who say otherwise are simply spouting lies.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Eiriki is seething about SMT IV once again, what a shock.

[@pn2294]

How do you really feel about the game?

[@Troll29xD]

Based

[@renren47618]

Based

[@fervcorsica3358]

Smt 4 is hands down the best entry in the franchise. Anyone who says otherwise obviously lacks critical thinking skills

[@aquano1972]

I’m sure you know my stance of SMT IV just from my pfp, but I want to be fair in my response: I feel as though for your criticisms towards IV’s designs were not good. Depictions of mythology being too departed from its actual lore or just outright lazy illustrations isn’t something IV started. Some (of course not all) of Kaneko’s designs were nonsensical and lame like Fenrir, Leviathan, and one where it was literally just a drawing of Frankenstein. As for the writing in IV, particularly about what you said about Jonathan and Walter, I couldn’t disagree more. These characters themselves aren’t soulless binaries that only do law or chaos extremes, respectively. You see many times in the story that they agree with each other, develop their views, and even at times clash against issues that are supposed to align with them (such as Jonathan strongly disagreeing with the older Samurai about not helping villagers in Kiccigorgi Forest, finding it wrong to follow rules for the sake of following them, for the good of others). It’s only in the climax of the game where they fall into their tragedies and give into the angels and demons. So in the beginning of the game, you’re not *really* talking to Jonathan or Walter themselves; you’re talking to the embodiment of law and chaos. Similar to how in the neutral route you at first hear their voice before it is revealed to be Merkabah and Lucifer

[@krv3]

Facts bro

[@jim7644]

I will say regarding certain design decisions that not strictly adhering to mythology (and depicting historically normal humans as demons) is neither nothing new to the series, and there actually is a lore explanation. Demons in SMT are all, basically, tulpas - they’re concepts in the human mind given form. This has the effect of potentially radically altering demons from how they “should” look into more symbolic, even modernized interpretations of themselves. This is also why Frankenstein’s monster, Beetlejuice, Christine, and Pennywise show up as demons at points. Tiamat is actually a good example - in SMT, she’s frequently depicted as a woman fused serpent/dragon - whereas in the mythology, she was the personification of the formless ocean from which the world emerged (similar to kaos in greek mythology). The serpentine form Tiamat takes is the result of draconic beings often being named after her in fantasy media (most famously the Tiamat from D&D). With that in mind - Cleo and Idun’s designs make a bit more sense. Cleo’s design is basically a ridiculously exaggerated take on the idea of a “foreign beauty,” with pale skin, blonde hair, and her uh…proportions. That the snake is something only incidentally associated with her also doesn’t matter - it’s still a thing associated with her, so it’s a part of her. Idun is a goddess of youth who oversaw festivities and banquets - making her into an idol is MAYBE a bit of a stretch, but the connection is there. The archangels, though? Yeah… Both in the bible, and in terms of how we traditionally imagine them, the archangels are ALWAYS depicted as being humanoid. In fact, IIRC, Gabriel is never even directly referred to as an angel in the Tanakh - he’s just referred to as a “stranger” who shows up and advises biblical heroes on the proper course of action in their stories. Doi himself even admitted that, when designing a lot of demons for 4 at the very least, he didn’t really do any research on their myths. There’s some exceptions - Inanna is actually identical to how she’s described as looking for her trip to the underworld - but then you get Dagda who, there’s actually an early concept design of him that WAS closer to his mythology that they scrapped because they wanted to write him as an edgy teenage son to Danu. The mere existence of the Ancient of Days also bugs me, since it’s basically the Trumpeter - who already exists as part of the fiend race. What modern SMT is lacking, to me, is not the mythology. If anything, it leans a bit too much into “pure” mythology. What it’s lacking is the “occult.” Classic SMT was a product of Japan’s occult boom - a (vaguely defined) period of time in which Japanese pop culture became heavily fixated on esoteric mysticism, psychic powers, and traditiinal folklore being contrasted against the modern world. It’s the era that produced Teito Monogatari, Devilman, and the original DDS novels, all of which had huge influences on the series. Occultic rituals and the like were all frequent fixtures of the early games, and both the messians and gaeans were both shinshuukyou groups that incorporated disparate bits and pieces of abrahamic and neo-pagan religions, respectively. A lot of that kind of stuff is just gone, now - SMT4/4A and V place their focus almost squarely on divine beings vying for control over the right to creation - a thing that Nocturne did to a degree, sure, but it did it while maintaining the feel of an “occult” story.

[@sociallyawkard5675]

I started with smt 1, and played onwards,couldn't disagree more with IV, which I feel was the last game that understood SMT's basis, V still gets it but reinvented SMT

[@videorelaxant2780]

Of course IV was the last game that had Kanekos creative involvement.

[@noelnotcole7940]

I think as a general rule, yes. But I hate how Lucifer was handled there in the latter half of the game.

[@w21aaaaa]

@@videorelaxant2780 Kaneko might came up with the scenario drafts, But don't discount Kazuyuki Yamai and Shinji Yamamoto's involvement. They were the main Scenario writers. Since Kaneko seems AWOL nowadays, I hope future SMTs have those 2 involved again. Judging from their credits, the games having their writing credits "gets" the SMT feel (Raidou 1/2, Strange Journey, IV). Both guys aren't even that old yet with Yamai starting his big role with Nocturne Maniax and Yamamoto with Raidou 2.

[@NintendanGX]

SMT IV was great, and the last solid entry in the series, but it did kind of mark the beginning of the end for the franchise. If the Neutral bias and plot holes surrounding the people of Mikado before its destruction weren't indicative enough, the introduction of Day 1 DLC certainly was.

[@V0ID115]

This is why I like playing all games in chronological order. I not only understood, I FELT everything you said on an emotional level as I witnessed the progression from Megami Tensei to SMT to modern SMT. Amazingly done video.

[@kahn466]

damn I would have quit early smt let alone megami tensei is mad shit

[@harishramachandra1746]

do you mean release order? thats what you did

[@pit2992]

Yeah, I feel like if you really want to experience a series evolution you must play the games in release order.

[@banalsandwitch4002]

Thats really not necessary

[@0ctopusComp1etely]

I had a lot of fun playing SMT V... but the more I think back and reflect on it, the worse the whole package looks. I think I was mostly just caught up in the game's flow and let it carry me along with what I considered to be very fun gameplay. But the longer and harder I think back on, well, ALL of it, the worse it gets. I think SMT V is going to age very, very poorly unfortunately. Even for fans that enjoyed playing it at one point like me.

[@BBWahoo]

SMT4(A) is worse imo, I had a lot of fun with 5

[@ataridc]

No your initial conclusion was right smtv is rad

[@ytmcztmc9096]

After having finished SMT V a while back I felt relief that I had finally got to play this game I was waiting for for so long and yet also a sense of disappointment. Maybe it's because I was going for the law route and their portrayal honestly being incredibly stale and even forced at times but it felt like there was an awful lot of bias towards Chaos and Neutral(though I suppose that's nothing new). It also felt like a lot of my choices didn't actually matter and the only choice that did was the alignment lock towards the end. A lot of characters just kind of come and go, the other bethel branch leaders barely got any characterization outside of Khonsu and Zeus. Despite what I said toward their bias Tsukuyomi and Atsuta felt like cardboard cutouts compared to Dazai and Abdiel and even Nuwa and her partner who felt more Chaos than they did. Top it off with a true ending that makes no sense in the context of the requirements to get it and I just felt unsatisfied in a lot of areas. I've had someone tell me that I should pay more focus on the philosophical themes of V instead of it's story and characters but like what's the point of a message if it's poorly conveyed?

[@justabearbrowsingyoutube4968]

As much as I love V for it’s concepts, style, gameplay mechanics, characters and music - the story indeed could be summarized as a rough draft prototype someone stopped working on half way. I read somewhere there was a story concept of a human terrorist organization that was scrapped. If that’s true, that would of been interesting. Also yeah, philosophical themes are absolutely pointless without a story to support them. Not sure why that person told you such a bizarre statement.

[@spudsbuchlaw]

"I feel like SMT has lost its way" is a phrase that has unfortunately been bumbling around my brain for the past weeks, and I'm glad this video comments on that

[@acedapanda7344]

Actually, I'd like to point out that Tao, being of the panagia race and also being called a saint, is a direct reference to Greek Christianity. Because panagia in Greek, is Saint Mary, the person who birthed Jesus himself. She's pretty commonly known as a Saint by everyone you'd ask in Greece. Idk if this is in all versions of Christianity, but at least in the one I'm most familiar with, Christianity in Greece, she is, so that's the connection between the two. Hope I cleared up the confusion you had at 17:02!

[@chrisdiokno5600]

Well, not a Saint, but in Catholicism, she's considered the most important female in Christianity cause well, mother of Jesus

[@obeysquirrel]

So the video is about demon designs and how demons are not represented compared to the real life mythology and that’s how SMT is losing its identity? I disagree sounds like nitpicks to me but we can agree to disagree

[@MetalFreezer3000]

I feel that the parts in where you try to compare SMT with Fate shows that you're either don't know much about Fate or that you didn't did enough Research on that part

[@Hyperslayer_X]

Yeah he lost me as soon as he went on about Fate’s Tiamat. What makes a mother goddess in Fate is different from our general understanding of the term, hence why Athena and Artemis (literal virgin goddesses) are Mother Goddesses in Fate. All Earth Mothers in Fate inherited their authority from a forgotten mother goddess 8,000 years ago and this authority involves the creation of life or other attributes associated with the Earth Mother. It doesn’t mean that Athena and Artemis were actually mothers of the earth and its creatures. Some better research would’ve made those parts of the video much more digestible tbh.

[@speaksincircles]

4 was still good. The script was written by the old team. But was implemented by the new team

[@matteste]

You should check something called "Shin Megami Tensei's Identity Crisis" by Eirikr J.S. which goes quite in-depth on this topic. Though it is quite old now as it was made before Apoc, some parts of it ended up kinda prophetic in a really sad sense. To me, what the series has lost is that in the past, every entry constantly tried to innovate and be something new. This is what made Nocturne so special, it was just nothing else like it. Even in SMT IV you can see some of this, most likely a carryover from Kaneko's original draft. Looking at V meanwhile, and nothing about it stands out as it's own. It just feels like a shallow copy of what had come before. And that's even before getting into just how unfinished it felt. And the less said about Apoc and SMTxFE the better. And with Iduun, not only is she modeled after an idol, but a Japanese style idol, not a Scandinavian one. The one good thing about modern SMT I will say though, Ryota Kozuka really knows how SMT is supposed to sound and really should have been made composer much earlier.

[@Phraqzy]

Apocalypse is neat

[@Plasmyte]

I know of Eirikrs blogs and whatnot and I generally tend to agree with his analysis so if I can find the time I'll certainly check it out. Admittedly despite 4A's faults though I kind of enjoy it in a "so bad it's good" way, certainly not in the way the story writers intended, I'm sure. Especially the Anarchy route, it's just so corny and edgy that I just can't help but grin at some of the dialogue.

[@raikasha8152]

*1.* Are you forgetting Asmodeus literally wanted to take Isabeau as a forced bride after attempting to kill Flynn? An attention to detail on top of that line of dialogue being mandatory. Not to mention Asmodeus was helping the forces of Chaos against the Four Archangels and the King aspect had no reason to be brought up (And it rarely ever if ever gets brought up with demon lords barring Lucifer and Bel). And calling Vishnu-Flynn mechanical is a massive stretch since you can clearly see what's meant to be like flesh separate from his outfit. Not to mention Koga Saburo's obvious references to him being turned into a snake with his green skin, lines representing snake scales, torso with no arms and two spikes on his back like a snake's fangs *2.* Law stripping individuality unique to SMT IV? Did you forget Zelenin's brainwashing in Strange Journey and the fact Echidna mentioned humans serving under God become brainwashed in SMT I? Not to mention Satan, the being closest to God in the SMT games he appears in is a giant xenomorph of death and that's barely exaggerating what with his pointing technique. Plus countless people of Tokyo have been terrorized by the angels so it's natural they look far demonic as their understanding of them is a bit different. (And human understanding shaping demonic appearances and existences is something I'll get into later). Plus did Lucifer not play an active role in Megami Tensei II and SMT II where he assisted in killing God? Not to mention he'll war against YHVH in Nocturne no matter what Demi-Fiend does. *3.* You're not taking into account SMT IV's story. When Lilith passed humans books from the real world (I'm talking actual IRL too. If you replayed and researched the books they mentioned they are from the real world) and the when the causalries read of such books they grew resentment against the Luxorors cause they knew life could be better beyond the Kingdom. Thus Merkabah would want to kill her and anyone for having forbidden knowledge. *4.* Unchanging in form? You yourself show different demon designs of Odin before IV Apocalypse. Demons like Bael have gone from being a three-headed man frog fly thing to a humanoid riding a frog. Cherub has went from being an Eeveelution to a statue, to a mechanical being. On top of that IV Is the game that gave Cherub his actual human look instead of Soul Hacker's weird robot thing. You can't say Observation is unchanging but show changed forms. Even the fundamentals of demonic existences: That being human thoughts and experience have changed appearance and name throughout games. Magnetite was specified to be the essence of human desires in SMT IV Apocalypse, and is the substance demons needed to exist in the human world SMT I, II and If... gameplay. Nocturne has a thing called "Magatsuhi" and inside the Amala Network as a spirit who is radiating Magatsuhi explains that Magatsuhi is the flow of negative human emotions. And multiple characters like Isamu and Hikawa need a lot of Magatsuhi a.k.a magnetite to summon demon's strong enough for their goals. Kagutsuchi even creates Baal Avatar by striking lightning on the Magatsuhi Flower Chiaki gathered to materialize her Reason God into existence. (Also how did you forget an avatar of God being named after the Shinto Deity of Fire and Light in Nocturne?) And the fact Thor drains Isamu's Magatsuhi for power in the game (How Isamu survived that and being hit by Thor's hammer is beyond me, lol). Plus the information and data that comprises demon being said to be like human thoughts as explained in Digital Devil Saga and referenced in the chaos routes of Devil Survivor Overclocked. As Babel is very close in nature to human thoughts and Amane Kuzuryu say the people belief's in demonic Abel will make him stronger). Dadga also mentioned he was a different force before he became "Dagda". (Oh and for the Cleopatra point SMT has made large referenced/gone "overboard before" Mara is literally a giant genitalia) *5*. Satan is no stranger to also rebelling against God. He killed YHVH for committing genocide and the law route and SMT IV Apocalypse's chains are a clear reference to him manifesting in the human world. As YHVH made the human world a crucible for human suffering and Satan manifested in it to aid in YHVH's goal. Then he returns to YHVH's world with the chains broken, representing Nanashi breaking free of YHVH's slavery and reaching a higher knowledge by learning of Infinite YHVH's existence. Thus ascending to a higher world after his higher knowledge (Which is why Dadga is also very thematic for the IV duology as he is the God of Knowledge. And also plays into SMT V) *6*. Nothing about Lucifer and Jonathan fusing is arbitrary, remember demons being made from human desires/thoughts. As Jonathan/Walter's wills are strong enough to oppose The White from the expanse who are humanity's collective unconscious of the SMT IV to a degree. And a single humanity is enough to change the likes of YHVH in SMT, as YHVH became weakened due to humanity's faith in his being lessening in Strange Journey. So the angels would need a very strong counter measure oppose Lucifer: Someone who is stronger than them and Lucifer would need his own counter to the counter angelic being. *7*. SMT is a wide-multiverse and isn't singular to how its more surface level rules work. Thus in that set of multiverses the Nahobino concept can exist. And demons being second-class citizens to humans?? The human race in SMT-V needs demon summoning programs or Nahobino fusions to fight demons. The only exception really being Yakumo and kind of Ichiro Dazai as they became Meta (As in literal meta/superhuman) And some humans reject living with demons to care for their own world instead of dealing dangerous demons. This concept is not something that only existed after SMT IV. In the Freedom ending of Nocturne Demi-Fiend chooses to reset the world to one without demons. In Megami Tensei II almost all demons cease to exist if you kill YHVH, they aware of that something else evil is going to appear and that they're going to have to fight it. Not that they want to co-exist with it. Heck Lucifer sealed the rift between the demon and human world within the novels. SMT IV also mentions the inevitably of demon's re-appearing after the protagonist has slain them and nothing is being solved. And SMT-V only has one ending where demons are gone for a good while. The neutral ending is a hard fight for humanity after being given demon's as weapons (Something Yakumo himself said humanity needed to stand on equal footing with demons despite how strong Yakumo himself is) And the plain neutral ending has a bunch of violence and conflict the V protagonist didn't want. Calling Post SMT-III power fantasy is just a very dishonest oversimplification (Not to mention you could make an argument for literally any SMT game with that logic since its mostly adolescents soloing powerful deities from many branches of mythology without a ton of training or experience. And its not much different for characters like Tadano Hitonari. Yes I know he had training but on Earth training doesn't compare to fighting against demons from several mythologies/religions with their own abilities.) *8*. Yeah Archangels and Angels do come from the same place as gods and demons as I proved earlier. Not to mention YHVH being a god that trampled the others is a common story in SMT, being referenced as far-back as SMT I. Demons, gods and angels really aren't different in the long-term. And SMT is no stranger to putting Japanese concepts into other deities. The Judeo-Christian god being constantly fragmented into smaller selves on top of his entire army being fragmentations within SMT despite that being a very Shinto-concept. SMT is very accurate to IRL mythologies but also has its own axioms and rules to tell its own stories, and that needs to be realized. Without some underlying axiom above the others you can't have a polytheistic story but have it be 100% accurate to each and every one, it's just impossible. So SMT never never does/has opted for that. (*Not done. The original comment was too long for one box apparently*)

[@raikasha8152]

**9**. Dude... The angels referred to Tao "as her holiness" due to her being a helping healer within the story. It literally says she was the "Saint of Bethel". **10**. It obviously wasn't trying to be a more lonesome game since you have allies that will actively side with you and the fact the human society is still in tact to a degree. As the developers stated they wanted inspiration from SMT IV, Apocalypse and Nocturne. Not to mention here's an angel helps Dazai survive within the Netherworld and there's a time-discrepancy in the Netherworld's appearance that wasn't in Nocturne. Alluding that something bigger is going on beyond the world being destroyed. And how was that tonal whiplash? You got power from someone who works at Bethel and you need to keep working there for a majority of the game for your power source: Aogami, to side with you. Not to mention the protagonist can still do side-quest for things like supporting angels or demons and say what they actually support throughout the narrative. You can make alignment choices as far back as your first meeting with Nuwa and Yakumo. And the nature of Tokyo being forgotten afterwards? I have no idea what you're coming from with that. Koshimizu literally brings up a way with to save Tokyo from being permanently gone after mentioning it's status. And is ready to declare independence/being against Bethel as he intends to create a new world that will run a different philosophy then what God chose. **11**. The demonic invasion being "entirely propelled by school bullying" is drivel. Lahmu and his forces were attacking Tokyo due to their innately chaotic beings and the fact Lahmu wanted knowledge. It was obviously foreshadowed by all the random humans who got slaughtered by demons in the in the early part of the game. You're incredibly oversimplifying the conflict of the story. Not to mention comparing Lahmu mind-warping an innocent human to a Persona realizing their flaws to actively improve themselves is a stretch **at best**. And Sahori's conflict is meant to point at how demons can be insanely malevolent and support Yakumo's and Dazai's points of humans getting broken by demons. And about Ichiro and Yuzuru, you know a character is more than development and that internal development isn't necessary for a character. Dazai is subtlety built up throughout the entire story with his repeated failures, low self confidence and searching for a reason/way to be strong. Which is out of the box and more nuanced than most Law depictions where they're simply tyrants. Also did you forget Susano's nature as an altered Proto-Fiend within SMT V? **12.** Merkabah and Lucifer being extreme blah blah stuff I already covered. Jonathan was shocked at the thought of annihilating Tokyo before making his decision and ultimately chose his own people over the other's to ensure peace. And what you would not consider Nocturne a chaos-biased game since there's chaotic ending where you aid Luci but nothing for YHVH? Also collecting hope having no meaning and being contrived? How did you miss The White's a.k.a humanity's past experiences wanting to end their multiverse due to living in God's worlds and it's pointlessness of it not being stopped (Which is referenced in other games) They were filled with despair so Flynn gave it hope, it's not rocket science. And Stephen already had major foreshadowing of becoming a higher being. As he appeared in the end of SMT If... An alternate universe where the nukes never dropped. And you also missed the dialogue text it where says Stephen chased after the Goddess of Tokyo after she had issue manifesting in Nanashi's universe. **13.** Lucifer standing by is very consistent for his character within this game. In SMT Strange Journey when God is turned into a shadow of his former self Lucifer simply observes what the main character does in the world instead of immediately causing chaos. Lucifer could've easily stopped him at many points cause the devil refused cause he already got what he wanted: Chaos. A world without YHVH is chaos, as shown by the demons being free to attack in SJR and the less-controlled world of SMT V. Even if Tadano defeats demonkind within the Law Route Lucifer is merely an observer, the only the he does at best is kill an already defeated Mastema in the Chaos Route. And as MC-Kun is the one who won the battles against the other Nahobino within his routes he has the highest right to earn the world he "conquered". I don't care to rebuttal much else after that cause this is long enough. You don't have to like SMT IV, Apocalypse or V. V is one of my least favorite entries of the SMT series myself. But if you're going to criticize a series, make sure you properly understand the story instead of just forgetting half the details.

[@Rimalogo]

@@raikasha8152 really well thought out comment response, I feel like sometimes people don't pay attention. But people should tell ATLUS what we want and I hope they listen to criticisms about SMT5, people just should tell correct info

[@raikasha8152]

@@Rimalogo Nice to see at least someone gets it. This guy either doesn't pay attention or just has a bias against Post Strange Journey games. Cause things are only problems when SMT IV onwards does them. Doesn't help that many videos on SMT V are this bad

[@Rimalogo]

@@raikasha8152 I wanna make an SMT 5 video to try to make sense of things, I still think its a bad game story wise but I don't feel like it's the games fault, and I wanna talk about the cut content we know from interviews. It's obvious the game went through trouble. Doesn't help this video was heavily shared by a guy called Erikir, a 40 year old man who has archived a majority of megaten media which while I am thankful for, he spends all day on tumblr either complaining or making fun of post Kaneko megaten calling Doi "no where are creative" or just sucking off Nocturne.

[@raikasha8152]

@@Rimalogo Smh that guy.

[@them3ds464]

This was quite an interesting video to watch, I have a soft spot for SMT IV but looking at it from a more critical view the story does fall flat compared to other games in the series, especially to Nocturnes, though I feel like this is more present in SMT V, as fun as that game was I believe the story was definitely the weakest aspect of it (even more so than SMT IV), what makes series so appealing to me is how they incorporate mythology into the story and settings of SMT which gives this series an identity compared to other JRPGS that have mythical figures in them (Like say Final Fantasy for example), I feel like SMT 1, Devil Survivor, Nocturne and Soul Hackers does an excellent job of this IMO, I love the modern games solely because of the gameplay but the characters are often weak compared to other entries, sure characters in the mainline games aren't exactly the deepest but I believe the older games have done a much better job of handling it's alignment reps compared to SMT V, I love this franchise to death but it's sorta sad to see this series go down this path, but this has to do more with Atlus' businesses decisions I believe. Also I have to disagree with a few of your points for SMT IV, I'm kinda a fan of the redesigns of the archangels even though I prefer there original designs but still I think there cool.

[@Larrue]

I think I woulda liked you to look into the development of the games since some of the things you question or even bring up as a point have stuff mentioned that woulda helped I think And some of that intro information is incorrect like Kaneko working on mt 1

[@Plasmyte]

I meant "Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei" as a series itself rather than specifically 1, I know Kaneko came in around 2. Should've phrased that better though. Yeah, researching more into the internal developments (such as the details behind the Atlus merger) would've helped but I wrote this script inbetween exams so I decided to leave it at that. Intended this video to be more concise in general despite the length it ended up on. Thanks for checking it out though. - FuchsiaFree

[@Larrue]

@@Plasmyte ah gotcha it was just the image and phrasing then

[@forte4450]

Nice video! Enjoyable watch with some interesting ideas. As someone generally on the other side of most of these ideas (particularly as they relate to SMT4 considering I Loathe 4a and 5) I wanted to share some ideas your discussion sparked. I think you're kind of presupposing a frame when you make the assertion that SMT 4 was inherently trying to recapture 1 as its primary goal. While obviously this is true in some aspects of its design, devs have remarked as much, you can see where specific intent differs by looking at the alignments. First I would like to say that your decision to reduce people who like SMT4 into "people who just played it first" and the insinuation that we don't know any better doesn't serve any of your points well and makes you seem like you're just mad at people who disagree with you. I realize you aren't because of how well thought out the rest of the video is but in the future I would leave stuff like this on the cutting room floor. You criticize the angel designs of SMT4 for being too eldritch in nature how this puts players off from appreciating law. regardless of the quality of the art In the context of SMT1 this WOULD be a flaw as the game was trying to emphasize that there was no inherently superior choice in the conflict. This doesn't hold up in SMT4 however as it runs directly contrary to the themes of the game. SMT4 is trying to put you off the law route because it is making a statement about how unjust and unethical the faction is. A core theme of the game is the inherent similarity and futility of both law and chaos. Your framing of this as a Neutral "bias" is interesting to me because it conveys that, somehow, the idea of a better ending is inherently flawed when, from my perspective, neither a balanced or imbalanced portrayal of alignments is inherently valuable. It's all in the details. Why shouldn't 4 be able to make a statement in this way? It's a purposeful and thoughtful subversion of tropes that the series has delivered on enough for us to not really need to see reiterated that is thoroughly supported and explored through the text of the game. In the discussion on designs I actually agree that authorial voice from individual artists is often heavily limited in modern SMT. However I think part of this is that the series is too unwilling to let go of previous artists. Its hard for the idea of tons of guest artists creating a wild and disparate demon world to shine when the vast majority of demons are still Kaneko originals in 4. Similarly its hard for Doi's voice to shine through as an artist when Kaneko's designs still take up a bulk of the roster. Your analysis of the demon designs as contrary to the series prior is also pretty sensible. SMT4 does treat its demons more like characters than mythological deities and at worst just uses the deities as set dressing. That being said, this coincides with another shift in this game. That being the shift to a more direct narrative focus. This isn't to say that older SMT doesn't have a narrative focus (people who say this honestly confuse me) but that 4s brings it out more than any other mainline game and with that some compromises are inherently made. It's easy to have a lot of demons faithfully designs to their myth when their context as a character is them having 2 scene and then being a boss fight. When characters like the archangels for example are given place in a story that informs their design more as their significance in that story increases. The archangels serve as a revelation for the player generally. They're incredibly shocking especially to someone with a typical understanding of what Judeo-Christian "Law" is. Obviously they don get this right every time, but I think its unfair to write off this design philosophy so readily when its even present to a lesser extent in older SMT. (Why is Seth a dragon in SMT2 after all?) I also am not sure I understand your grievance with more mechanical designs, would like to hear you expand on that genuinely. Inconsistency in design is also a funny grievance to have imo as it is all over the place in the series even between Kaneko's old work and newer work in singular games. Absolutely agree with your take on Lucifer. What 4 did to him is the biggest black mark on the game IMO The manga joke is in poor taste but I genuinely do not understand why it is the crux of so many arguments against smt4. Its a joke. A bad joke. But a joke. I find it curious you lump Meguro in with the other old heads of shin Megami tensei considering he only started working on mainline during 3. "Mythological figures are informed by their observation and thus are unchanging in form" seems to me like a misreading of observation as described in 4-4A. As the game defines it the way a demon is understood is the way it will take form. This means that as human understanding of a deity evolves and is informed by the world around them so to do the demons. It is literally used to explain why demons change. That being said, yeah dagda is one of the worst examples of demons as a story character over a myth character. I'd argue for odin but I immensely dislike 4a writing so. Mythological figures are obviously core to megaten as a franchise even beyond just SMT specifically but it seems you dont appreciate the perspective of people who were drawn to engage with this series for other qualities it has. Eirik has wonderfully explained what the designs of post-SJ mainline are flawed from the perspectives of their origin myths. I accept a lot of those criticisms. But is it not reasonable to come away from smt 4 absolutely blown away by the experience in spite of that? In regards to the rest of the genre it has lightning fast gameplay, an incredibly engaging world, creative and unique art, a near unmatched soundtrack, a though provoking narrative etc. Kind of shocked you would criticize 5s true neutral ending so heavily for the exact same thing 3's human ending did (both of these are some of my least favorite endings though so I do get it) I guess the bulk of our disagreements would come from the fact that I dont see why the mythology of the series and its real world context has to be revered and cherished at the expense of what the artists would like to express. I can get why you value them personally but to stage these characters who are at least partially owed to the rest of the world as "the identity" of the series does a great disservice to the many talented artists who informed all the aspects of the series both pre and post SJ.

[@DragonKingX78]

I am not surprised that SMT5 has story issues, the game had a lot of production issues including changes in direction during production, spending too much time on graphics, demon design, etc. But don't worry, the game sold well, so I am sure we will get a manics, ultimate, special edition, etc. version one day.

[@DragonKingX78]

@sergio kelyimporta lets not forget that it is the first mainline game to sell a million units.

[@MaledictusXCII]

"so I am sure we will get a manics, ultimate, special edition, etc. version one day" megaten commmunity become like pokemon fans

[@DragonKingX78]

@@MaledictusXCII I don't play Pokemon and I don't own a Switch(not interested, don't have the money, etc.) but would love SMT5 to at least be ported to the PS4.

[@manuelredgrave8348]

@@DragonKingX78 If they ever port it elsewhere i hope it's an enhanched re release with DLCs already included, but knowing Atlus they'll just add even more DLC stuff like they did in persona

[@nodbynobdy]

i could write a few paragraphs about why i disagree with a lot of the things you said, but i am too lazy to do that

[@gwynbleidd8863]

relatable

[@xerontokyo]

I think it shows overtime that each games have few staff changes from III, SJ, IV, IV A & V alongside other MegaTen subseries. Like how majority on the lead for SMT V are Etrian Odyssey peeps with the SMT core staffs as supervisors.

[@justabearbrowsingyoutube4968]

My thoughts exactly. Although I love SMTV, it’s no wonder it felt like a different series lol…

[@NintendanGX]

I'm glad more people are willing to criticise modern SMT games, because they're starting to lose their core appeal, the very thing that got me into the franchise to begin with. I was drawn to Megami Tensei precisely because it WASN'T your run-of-the-mill JRPG franchise. The turn-based combat is the best of its genre, and the stories, characters and setting maintained a satisfying level of quality and consideration while also being a breath of fresh air from the dime-a-dozen cliched Final Fantasies, Dragon Quests and other copycats flooding the market. Its mature take on morality and alignments that'd allow players to see which side of the conflict they naturally stood based on their choices and answers is something I've rarely seen from most other games. And the alignment-lock used to happen earlier into the final act, providing more replay value for returning players looking for content they missed out on. Now, the alignment system is bolted on to the very end of V and boiled down to one of three to four options, which makes every subsequent playthrough more tedious than it needs to be as you trek through the exact same experience, and shows a heavy bias toward the Neutral ending instead of providing a balanced overview of the conflict with equal pros and cons across the board. No nuance, no thought-provoking dilemmas, no chances for the player to naturally explore their own morality and see where it leads them, just an objectively-good ending to make all others redundant. Where classic SMT could be comparable to a gritty, experimental 90's OVA (if said OVA told a complete story), modern SMT perfectly encapsulates everything wrong with modern anime; an overabundance of derivative shounen anime, or superficially-cool shows from people with no live experiences to draw from and no desire to create art beyond selling a product to pay their bills. What used to be a GOOD antithesis to the generic "Hero of light rises to save the world from an Evil Dark God Lord Devil Dickhead, meeting quirky archetypes that aren't actual characters beyond their basic template, and discovering the power of fwendzips along the way", is now a pale imitation of both these things, which in turn paints the Megaten franchise as an edgy try-hard and prevents more people from getting into the franchise than there normally would be. If you guys thought Persona 5's influx of cancerous teenagers whining about how every other Megaten game isn't like P5 was bad enough, that's going to continue being the case with each new instalment, the longer Atlus continues to drag the franchise through the mud and let it fester. And it's a shame, because I loved the gameplay of SMT V. While the bullshit stat-scaling tied to levels was its biggest flaw, I loved the actual combat and world design. Exploring each area reminded me of my all-time favourite game, Xenoblade Chronicles (which became another series that got an awfully-written AND poorly-designed entry lacking anything that made the other games great, with Xenoblade 2, but unlike SMT, bounced right back after Torna and Xenoblade 3). It was fun to find hidden sidequest bosses and unlock them as demons in my party afterwards, and seeing the demons in the actual overworld like a Xenoblade monster, with some being too strong and forcing the player to carefully traverse the land for the safest path. I wish we had more sidequests with involving stories and actual voice acting like what SMT IV provided, but assuming Atlus could learn from their mistakes, the building blocks are there for an incredible new game. But as I've mentioned before, it feels like a chore to get every ending and experience all the alignment-specific content where it wasn't with past games, because everything is stapled haphazardly onto the tail end of the game. And none of this is even getting into the shitty Day 1 DLC Atlus have gotten away with for 9 years straight. Given how much of a fuck-up Soul Hackers 2 was in every conceivable way, I don't have much hope left for Megaten's future. I'm always willing to have my doubts proven wrong, but until then, Xenoblade will be my top-tier JRPG of choice. And if I need my SMT fix, I've got plenty of alternatives to choose from, between The Lost Child, Undernauts and Digimon Survive.

[@CursedShinobiClown]

It’s the best by jrpg standards not so much crpg standards but I wonder to myself… Smt games have nuance? I’ll be honest the only ones that had good alignments was smt1 and sj and even then I wouldn’t really say the latter had much nuance (smt2 chaos unironically ends with a “and den everyone lived happily ever after in harmony including duh mutants” and the neutral route was made bad on purpose to spite neutral in smt1) it was basically one hyper extreme against another hyper extreme. Only reason why reasons (lol) work so well is cause they were more akin to Fallout factions then alignments where they were just vague enough to where you can legitimately argument and debate over how those societies world actually function. I think atlus has wanted to stop with alignments since 3 with sj being a final hurrah for them. 4 only brought em back cause of that game being rewritten a million times and had to be cut down in its script to being a throwback to smt1 and 2 in the best but also worst ways too. I think the spin off games do it all better which is ironic considering stuff like the DeSu games and DDS have way more standard “shonen anime” and “typical jrpg” tropes then mainline does yet still has better writing and more nuanced storytelling on average lol.

[@louish5068]

I think that saying 'its lost its identity' is a lazy criticism. Everything you said in this video is mere opinion, e.g saying 'it doesnt work' as if its fact. Every franchise changes. I think despite the changes in SMT it has still managed to keep its core identity. The only one I think that has deviated from this is 4 Apocalypse. Its still an incredibly combat and exploration focused rpg with its mythological and religious inspirations on its sleeve. If anything, now with V, it delves more into its religious inspiration. Its a very unique rpg still compared to the rest of the genre. Genuinely terrible video.

[@snailthelostcow63]

SMT is in such a weird position you know I mean, for every neat idea you thought, there will always other spin-off that already incorporated the said idea How to keep being "traditional" but accessible in modern days is really insane to pull unless it's a much simpler format like Dragon Quest series.

[@kupo3283]

I've been saying for years that Atlus has been going downhill for quite a few years now. It''s also sad to see how legitimate criticisms of the franchise is met with mindless hate and namecalling rather than actual counterarguments. Overall, good video. Even if I don't agree with everything you said, I can definitely see your point of view and am glad more people are commenting on this very real problem Atlus is having.

[@digimonlover1632]

Nah, there are actual counter arguments made. Regardless of what you say though, Atlus is doing better than ever.

[@RisottosWife]

Ever since Persona 4, their direction has been switching completely off-rails.

[@Tetjaku]

Biblically accurate angels are pretty terrifying in how they look. The SMT IV angels and Ancient of Days is perfectly in line with how they should be: completely alien to human comprehension. Why do you think angels often introduced themselves with "Be not afraid?"

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Bliblically accurate angels are reddit, there were still some angels that had a human appearance it just depended on the rank

[@dantemustdie00]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 that is correct, only the Throne, Cherub, and Seraph Angel classes are described as horrific. The Angel, Archangel, Principality, Powern Virtue and Dominion classes are at least the most human Angel's classes. Also most of the SMTIV designs seem to been very unpopular by the japanese fanbase, so they weren't bringing back IV's 4 archangel designs anyway.

[@fredalejandro9932]

So you just saw a meme about "biblically accurate angel" and you just belive it, huh.

[@Tetjaku]

@@fredalejandro9932 Yep, gosh golly, memes like the Book of Ezekiel "4I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north-an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved. 10Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11Such were their faces. They each had two wings spreading out upward, each wing touching that of the creature on either side; and each had two other wings covering its body.12Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning." The Book of Isaiah "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. Isaiah 6:1-4" Literal non-descriptors like the Book of Daniel "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1" True there are humanistic description and depictions of Angels like Islamic interpretations, Renaissance works, the euphoric mass of Dante's Paradiso, and the works of Gustav Dore. But the Bible also used Hades and Thanatos in ancient texts and some current translations, so maybe they all look Greek. Maybe mythology and theologies reliance on oral tradition and scattered records across different people's that evolve either out of retelling, personal/political reasons (did you know there's quite a lot of scholarship about Genesis chapter 2 being a parallel/commentary on the Enuma Elish as a way for the Jewish people to rebel against their Babylonian rulers at the time?), and that maybe, just maybe, between translations and the password time, there may be room for interpretation as to how these might look. But what do I, someone who went to Catholic universities and had to study the Bible, know about how angels are sometimes portrayed. You all must dislike Bayonetta for the same reason.

[@fredalejandro9932]

@@Tetjaku Ok, first you're gonna need to tone down you attitude if you want me to take that tamtrum seriously. Second, I do like Bayonetta's angels they server both a lore and gameplay porpouse and they are pretty cool. Bringing up Bayonetta to this conversation is not the winning conclusion you think it is. Third, This doesn't justify the archangels awful design in SMTIV so what's your point?

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Is this just another SimplyDad, Marsh, Eikiri vent session about some meta-topic and how "SMT SHOULD be like these games I wasn't alive for, for a time that I never experienced?"

[@alsaiduq4363]

Nah, you don't need to play games like Megami Tensei 1 or SMT1, 2 and If.. to see how SMTV and IV demon design and writing is lacking in some aspects to other games.. Strange journey and Devil survivor were released on DS and both are leagues better in those aspect to SMTV.

[@athorem]

I'm going to be honest, I think mainline Shin Megami Tensei is going in an unsatisfying direction but the demons being mythologically accurate is not a concern at all to me. SMT V became boring due to it's lack of an interesting story or characters and imo fixing that issue should be priority #1 for future games. If they want to twist the motivations of the demons to be story - driven I think that actually helps the game more than it hurts it.

[@grimdara4227]

I largely agree with this. Don't get me wrong I believe mythological accuracy matters maybe to a certain extent, but I also believe it's been depicted in it's own way to begin with. I haven't played each SMT but I feel more engaged mainly through it's story and characters and the info about certain demons/angels is a nice part of it but not exactly what I'm there for. Though it is valid to criticize, I just feel indifferent maybe because of inexperience with the franchise.

[@Tetjaku]

I feel like V's true human actually lingers on the question of if a world without gods and demons is even possible. It felt more like an ending that allows to empathize with YHVH and is extreme measures as you have essentially become just like him. As for the Baal thing, I mean he was a rival god that was worshipped by the Canaanites

[@Tetjaku]

who was explicitly told to be rejected by followers of YHVH (a figure who states in the commandments that He is to be placed before others for He is a jealous god) so, still falls in line with the theology.

[@sociallyawkard5675]

The seraphim tied to Baal is in reference to how Baal is believed to have been worshipped alongside YHVH in temples, so that is tied to mythology

[@Mahagion]

A very interesting video that addresses a lot of criticisms that I have with the series. It's something I've been having in my head for a pretty long while now and have actually wanted to write an essay about. However, other topics took priority and the idea was put on the sidelines. I'm simply glad there's something like this out there. It's pretty much a collection of all problems people have with the series in an organized collection and then subsequently given a voice and some really cool editing. It's a very good video in my opinion. I like it a lot!

[@somedude484]

After playing SH2 and SMTV I can say, without a doubt that IV A was the last good thing Atlus ever did.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

I'm not sure where the Baal questions come from, considering most religions in that area during the time took from one another, including Judaism and the Canaanites, despite what members of those religions would want you to believe. If you look at the history of ancient Hebrew it has taken a lot of tropes from the surrounding religions at the time, and at one point was not a monotheistic religion. Also, I would not hold the Super Famicom version of Atlus in too high regard, considering a lot of them made Monark and that game is not very good.

[@hmaster0973]

SMT is an old franchise, so change is inevitable, and it seems like said change also brought some identity crisis. I'm kinda looking forward to soul hacker 2, but kinda concerne about a certain group of day 1 DLC.

[@Kafka_Garezerra]

"New SMT lacks mythological accuracy in it's designs" *proceeds to complain about angels having eldrich looks *

[@leixalkvinay2729]

@@charnalk5572 Well, most smt desing are either close to the mythos they come from or close to some depiction of them. That's why some demons like Arthemis has a bunch of boobs, because Kaneko used a statue that represented arthemis with a lot of boobs. It's not 100% accurate but for the most part the desings were at least based in somenthing, unlike Odin and his Super Sentai look (not to say it's bad, but a free interpretation with little relation to the mythos).

[@XelchanTheBrave]

I'm late by 2 years but the angels that SMTIV painted as eldricht abominations were never described as eldricht abominations in the mythos. Archangels and guardian angels who protect humans or talk to them appear as humans, like Archangel Gabriel for example. The whole "10000 eyed creature says be not afraid" is a meme born out of misinformation. The "eldricht" angels are Seraphims, Cherubs and Ophanims/Thrones and mostly people just refer to Ophanims when thinking about the meme anyway. SMT actually mostly had accurate angel art prior to IV and Cherubs especially stand out due to having multiple designs from unfaithful, to faithful, creative and faithful, etc.

[@del4028]

V in terms of plot it's truly disappointing. The game is unquestionably improvable. But I wouldn't say it doesn't feel like an SMT. I wouldn't say it has lost the identity of the franchise. As IV Apocalypse, it's just a different approach to its core topics. And IV... IV is the most classical modern approaching, it doesn't apply at all. That being said. Now I'm gonna start watching the video 😂

[@otoshigami4228]

In SMT V before the final battle, Lucifer said you can now see him in his true state now because of your status of Nahobino and being worthy of the throne. The angels and demons in the flashback would only see him in his demon state.

[@chrisdiokno5600]

The mechanical look of Angels in SMT to me is akin to how like they're meant to be "robotic" in service to the divine

[@dutchielander2478]

I hate how once creepy or scary looking demons get transformed to cutesy school girls. Takes away from the dark tone imo. I love 4 but i kinda hate 4A just because of the whole anime theme surrounding it. Friendship is something SMT can do without, we have persona for that. End of rant.

[@CursedShinobiClown]

The Digital Devil Saga in question

[@FMEGA516]

This makes me quite sad knowing about this. One of the most unique RPGs of all time slowly decending to mediocrity.

[@megamike15]

kinda reminds me of whats currently happening with falcom. trails is popular so it's elements are getting injected into ys.

[@billyboleson2830]

You can argue it started with nocturne being so different from 1 and 2 lol

[@cesarramirez7194]

Overall your video is pretty solid. Though in my opinion when it comes to designs I don't mind it. I did find it intersting from STM 4A(despite having its own flaws) where they try to explain that all these gods, demons, and angels how they look and protayed is based on how humans view them. An example being where Odin often called Dagda as Lord Dagda instead of Dagda because he used to be apart of him or like the YHVH fight he appears like a godly being only after denying and saying how flawed YHVH's claims are and he becomes demonized. But to agree to disagree as they say. Not to mention when looking at to other mediums(shows, games, ect.) they all have their own ways of protaying and design of certain characters or beings. It just depends how they appear and act depending on what sources they pulled from either acting as evil or good or some sort of middle ground. I think when it comes to SMT I think it needs more time in the pot to flesh its story and characters enough to be interested in them. Also I did wish to see Lucifer in some way having looked from his old angel look from past games incorporate into STM V rather than his mechincal Super Sentai/Power Rangers look considering on most accounts he was an angel before his fall from grace.

[@alter_3g0]

This is exactly what I've been thinking about since SMTV released, man. Couldn't have put it better myself. On a side note, I think the whole "power fantasy" element nu-SMT has might be partially derived from SMT3's true demon ending (which many ppl interpret as the "true" ending of SMT3 as a whole, sadly). Come to think of it, SMTV feels like it tries to do something similar with its true neutral ending ("Destroy the cycle of creation" in SMT3/"Destroy the throne of creation" in SMTV), though that's just an observation.

[@LKD7997]

To comment on part of your reply in regards to the true demon ending, it seems like Atlas themselves keep pushing that to be the “canon” ending. Look at the diamond realm dlc in apocalypse when Demi-fiend is pulled directly from his fight with Lucifer to that. And also his moniker in everything he’s advertised in is “The King of Chaos” so it’s safe to assume Atlas themselves considers it “canon”

[@FluffyTailedPrince]

I think Aogami reads less like Susanoo and more stoic was 'explained' by having used Tsukoyomi as template. So it's basically Susanoo's essence, for lack of a better word, put onto templates of Tsuko. Doesn't mean it is a perfect explanation, but that's probably the one they were going for

[@amatakaras9864]

While I disagree with the assessment of SMT IV being only good due to people first starting out with it, I do admit that the new demon designs (particularly the Archangels and Lucifer) are just ugly to look at even at just surface level.

[@vanilla8956]

You make amazing points and I mostly agree but I don't think you should be such a doomer about this. From mistakes and failures comes learning and growth. A few things, I don't think the idea of Nahobino is a bad concept, it gives us an explanation for why deities said to have the power to destroy worlds are instead casting Maziodyne at us, although I do think the designs need work. I have no problem with the protagonist (aside from how much I would like for him to have a secondary color like a bit of purple) mostly because I headcanon him as someone who was a fanatic of super sentai as a child, and now as a true god, is taking on the image they always saw for themselves. Having Abdiel take on a sexual and demonic form while ranting about gods law was just silly to me, and super sentai lucifer doesn't even register me as a depiction of him. Turning Lucifer into the representative of the true reddit atheist ending, and having him abandon Chaos and all of his loyal followers is personally offensive to me. I completely agree it seems obvious that they simply ran out of time and didn't have a place for him in the story. I can't describe how much I hate that ending enough. I'm happy to have it as an option, or maybe even a "secret law ending" but to present it as the best option, ignoring how it's you and lucifer suddenly deciding to genocide all of the demon friends you formed bonds with that are even stronger than the bonds with your human allies, and all of Lucifer's kin he fought to liberate, it's just gross. I don't mind the "persona-like" start to Sahori's arc because I think it could be a great way to show how different Persona and SMT are. Subverting the expectations of newcomers who came from P5, but of course, that arc goes absolutely nowhere, and is just a hold over from a previous point in development, just like everything else in base V lol. I'm glad you aren't afraid to criticize IV but I think the Goddess of Tokyo, while kinda cringe in how they handled it, is supposed to represent the unity and culture of Japan. They are a very different society than the modern west with all it's turbulence and diversity. They are homogenous and high trust, and overtly proud of that level of trust, like when you see stories about people returning lost wallets with no cash missing being common, people giving their umbrellas to old ladies crossing the street, etc, but more importantly then any surface level element like that, their response to natural disasters, and also a manmade one. There's heavy inspiration from the atomic bombings in SMT I and IV, and a pride in how their society was able to rebuild from rubble so quickly and adapt to a massive change in their government and culture. It's a pride that comes from the idea that the sun can be dropped on your nation by powers that appear to have only been done by a god, and refusing to have that be their downfall, rather jumping off of that calamity to grow and rise to a much higher point than they were before the blast. And just to reiterate, the great spirit of hope chalice shit is extremely cringe and a bad way to write this, but at least to me, it makes it more obvious that this is what they were going for. The one thing I wish you ended this video on is that at the end of the day, these issues are caused by human error. A showing of subpar talent by the many mistakes of people who still genuinely love the series their working on and want to do good by it. I don't believe yet that this has become some kind of soulless cash grab, because if that's all they want then there's something that rhymes with lymphoma that can always make way more. I don't think lame designs like Idunn are going anywhere, (because just look at how insanely popular she is with normies who played V) but I think that's an okay compromise to throw them a bone like that to keep them and the execs happy, as long as it doesn't bleed into everything else. And I don't think it will. The series is also attracting many new fans who are joining old fans in their criticisms, who became enthralled by the idea of this pseudo-edutainment like respect for mythology, but were left wanting more. I think things are going to be okay.

[@siuchaos2606]

I honestly feel that Nocturne is where SMT began to start losing its identity, Nocturne to me honestly feels like more of a spinoff than a mainline game. Much of Nocturne has nothing to do with most SMT games before it, there is no presence of comps, everything is dominated by gods and demons, and there were barely any humans inside the world. If anything SMT IV has more to do with SMT than most games past If.. / SMT 2. The game weaves in humans, comps, a post-apocalyptic tokyo, and different things as well, the story itself incorporates characters in it as well. I really don't care what people say, Nocturne has 0 story i'm sorry but it doesn't have a story at all. The entire story can be summed up in around 10 minutes, the dialogue in the story is only amounting to around 30 minutes. Chiaki is thrust into a world which is survival of the fittest, then gets manipulated by god to be survival of the fittest, Ms.Takao ends up realizing working for Hikari is bad, so she wants to get rid of demons and gods, and Isamu feels isolated in the demon world and wants to make a world where every person is in charge of their own destiny. I mean yeah, that's fine, but it still lacks any depth at all, the only interaction you get is 2 cutscenes which are the flags for their endings / alignments. The endings themselves all suck too, you get barely any control over how you want to shape the world, which has been a continuous part of SMT post-nocturne. I think that Nocturne is what caused this, not SMT IV, SMT has never had a minimalist story, people act like SMT is a series which has 0 story and is all about the gameplay when that's completely untrue. SMT I and SMT II were very unique JRPGs, but they still followed the conventions of a story, and of party members too. SMT V is just a worse Nocturne, with a story that is even worse, with endings that barely give you any control over what you want. This is a biproduct of Nocturne, I feel Nocturne is the most overrated game in the series, it really isn't as good as people say it is. If anything, Strange Journey should get that praise, it's objectively the best game in regards to alignments, gameplay, story, and everything which makes an SMT game SMT. Devil Survivor as well funnily enough, has a better alignment system and story and characters than any SMT game despite just being a spinoff. SMT should've moved in the direction of Devil Survivor honestly, rather than the direction of Nocturne.

[@xelldincht4251]

There are angels in the Old Testament that look pretty demonic. What do cherubs really look like? Cherub - Wikipedia In Ezekiel 1:5-11 they are described as having the likeness of a man and having four faces: that of a man, a lion (on the right side), and ox (on the left side), and an eagle.

[@RadiantMantra]

It feels like these last few years a lot of established franchises have gone through an identity crisis, chasing wider audiences. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't, but It's a worrying trend that keeps happening. I believe it's because interest for investors in the gaming industry has been at an all time high since Fortnite, and the investors end up calling the shots, unfortunately.

[@maramba32]

SJR, DS overclocked and record breaker, nocturne and SMTV will always be my favorite smt games. I just wish they make a DS game already

[@christhechilled]

Man, it’s been ten years there is no sign of Persona 6. Which is crazy at this point. SMT5 was the second smt game I played after Nocturne so I’m really disappointed about what happened!

[@faidou9954]

And so the fan base divide begins.

[@edsainmuramasa4751]

As much as I don't like a lot of doi art, smt demons have had "custom" designs since before even being called smt. cerberus is a blue dog, then a lion, and everyone likes the blue dog. i think it's good that smt gets their own take on demons. the tokusatsu inspiration also helps tie in with the series' cyberpunk roots.

[@billyboleson2830]

The g man comparison is spot on. Stephen in smt4 also feels like they want to make these games appear more connected then they actually are when in reality the whole “smt timeline” is mostly just nonsense made up by the fanbase like that nonsense “aleph=hijiri” theory

[@polyman6859]

It’s kinda like how Final Fantasy lost its identity for over a decade once Sakaguchi left Square.

[@TrevRockOne]

The rest of Atlus has been a victim of Persona's success. They leave the other games to the B and C teams. What's more, the new talent at Atlus seems to just want to do Persona type stuff.

[@CursedShinobiClown]

"is no masterpiece" shots fired and simplydad? Cause your 100% right

[@pit2992]

To be fair, Stephen never was "just a scientist". He literally survived the apocalypse (despite being on a wheelchair too) and didn't age for 30+ years. Not something everyday scientist would do.

[@ilyamuromez6412]

Didn't SMT 3 not had pseudo fiends where all the survivors bonded with a god? But yes I never realised how the mythology was ruined. Hell remover when smt4/4a artbook showed how most mother/fertility goddesses where just drawn pregnant?

[@jellyface401]

11:06 I always felt Dagda was the writer's vision of someone who would reject the concept of "friendship." That gave me the impression they really can not comprehend someone leaving a friendship without going to those extremes. Wich is something so foreign in every other anime and manga.Foreign enough for them to be unable to understand. The weebs producing weeb content leave a particular taste to everything they do rather than people who are fans of the occult that made weeb things like the original games. I know this feeling is most potent in "apocalypse," but I can see them learning even if they are still unable to reach higher heights, so my fears that they will devolve into generic JRPG that happens to have Gods are eased, at least for now.

[@MarquisVonMonster]

Your video is interesting but it has a problem. You say the direction of SMT IV and V is a bad tribute or attempt at SMT 1 and Nocturne, but start off the video mentioning that the original devs that started the series have mostly all left to move onto other projects. It’s unfair to the current team to say they are taking the series in a bad direction. It seems the love for the series is still there, but these new devs are attempting to do something new with this cult classic series while trying to pay tribute to the prequels and the fanbase it already has. I’m always genuinely surprised we get another SMT at all whenever a new one is released seeing as how Persona is the more popular series with anime tie-ins and way more spin-offs. Atlus could just say fuck it and only make Persona Dancing All Night so the fact we even get a new SMT that anyone plays is Lucifer’s Blessing.

[@joshuataylor7443]

What about digimon and poker witcth also has it monsters that are based on mythology?

[@Enuocale]

The idea of angels originally being followers of baal wasn't invented by V. Its the basis for the side of yosuga in nocturne, where angels follow baal, seemingly after the destruction of the abrahamic paradigm. And while it is historically sketchy, it draws from how cherubim have their origins in babylon (which gets equated to baal for some reason). That aside, this video is pretty on point. The newer games seem like they don't have much in the way of a cohesive vision, and are like a skeleton plot with references to older games thrown on.

[@Luna-pk7gz]

only SMTV ig, IV is pretty unique.

[@bibikktk]

Just accept that not every game will be your rose tinted version of Nocturne (2nd worst mainline), like all great franchises SMT continues to innovate and improve instead of caving into to whiny westerners and stagnating.

[@dc7981]

Whats thw worst mainline then

[@dangnguyen3724]

Great video - although much laughters have been pointed toward that IGN "Persona with no heart" SMTV review, no one seems to ask what, then, is the heart of Shin Megami Tensei? It can't be that such a series with 30 years of existence and carries influences has no heart at all. Sadly, I don't think the current creative forces of the series can answer that question all that well. Also, as much as some modern Persona fans like to use that same old, unfunny joke of Persona 1/2 being "fan games", perhaps SMTIV/Apocalypse/V fit that definition much better, with its slavish devotion to fan services and callbacks without the context, awkwardly fitting concepts, mythologies and characters from older games to their stories...

[@dc7981]

Bout time someone critisized 4....

[@namecannotbeblank8920]

These games are stuck in the 90's, they play mosty the exact same as they did in the first game with little quality of life improvements. The narative is more or less the same in every game with minor philosophical differences the gameplay loop is still tedious and mostly boring. All choices you make throughout the game are as inconsequential as they have always been and even more so when the game straight up askes you what ending do you want to get...The only thing they have going forthem is the battle system and the demon collecting. The series desperately needs innovation and an open empty area map just isn't enough and neither is the collectable chasing or heaps of sand that come with it.

[@Luna-pk7gz]

try to tell me you haven't played an SMT game without telling me you've not played an SMT game, nah but seriously Strange Journey, Nocturne and IV are completely different games with different themes and combat systems. This is such a disegenous comment lmao

[@nr2676]

Dragon Quest is still in 80's and 90's and it's still mainstream in Japan (even bigger than FF), and popular in West.

[@JamieEhh]

You're just upset that it's more known now

[@Shatterglass23]

No Lost Edentity. Sometimes Games don't need to be SUPER DEEP rocking your emotions. Small story, get RIGHT to the action. But deep story's cool too. You got Persona for that👍

[@maziio646]

"SMT has become more and more like Fate" I mean Fate is the better franchsie so i see nothing wrong with that

[@cheese3277]

nah

[@dc7981]

Both suck

[@mima8413]

>Fate >Better than SMT No.

[@cheese3277]

@@mima8413 L+ratio

[@mima8413]

@@cheese3277 >Ratio on KZbin Go outside my dude.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Ps2 era was the only era I truly cared about as well as some of the older stuff, I like the 3ds era and beyond but I dont really love it

[@fredalejandro9932]

Good I agree for the most part with your points. I for the most part enjoyed what SMTV offer in terms of demon designs and interactions, I agree with the fact that the game suffers from never coming out of Nocturne's shadow, your choses lack weight and the story feel like its just going through a checking list. And honestly all its ending are bad. In the case of SMTIV, I am relieved that I'm not the only one that felt its story and characters are mediocre. It heavily bias towards the neutral route and considering how it handles decisions, it feels poorly thought out. Also, those demon design remind me of what happened with the designs in Castlevania Judgment, where in a vacuum they're interesting but considering the long-running franchise they trying to represent it comes across as jarring and ugly. I wouldn't call it a lost of identity (yet) but it does feel like the people behind new entries are just going through the motions of an older smt game's templates, while adding new half-ass ideas for the sake of "modernize" it. It feels like a worring growing trend but it can be corrected. BTW you should improve your phrasing and pronunciation, I had to go back in some part to understand what you were saying.

[@issacthompson330]

I agree with most of the points in this video despite being in the group that would most likely stan the newer games(Started with a let's play of P5 on release, looked into P3 and P4, Discovered it was part of a larger series seeing SMT 4, and then looking into the earlier games with P5R being the first I played myself). I love the series but there is just something about the older games that the newer doesn't capture as better explained by the vid for those of you who went straight to the comments. Hell, I am currently playing Devil Survivor and Strange Journey at the moment and they are some of my favorite games in the series. P5 and SMT 5 have the funniest gameplay but I got into the series for its story, style, and themes.

[@RizaLazar]

Why this popping of????

[@RizaLazar]

Devil Children had 1 gen and then it went to shit

[@RizaLazar]

It's all about perspective

[@robertwazowski5578]

As I played the older games especially the snes ones I feel conflicted about V

[@icefiredragon94]

Thing is a tagline for SMTV was it was meant to appeal to both Persona and Megami Tensei fans, so the part Sahori being disliked by many for that seems not much different from SMT fans' really common argument that "theyre better because they are edgier." to me. I do agree though that SMTV's story seems to pull you in multiple directions. You get told by Susano-o that god forsaked them by creating a fake world but is stupid believing other gods can work things out, cause of the council cutscene. You spend the most time with Abdiel and Dazai, as much as chaos lovers hate to admit, and learn to empathize with them the most so it seems like a Law story right? Then nope apparently destroying the throne was right so you're to supposed side with the bitch baby Raidou knockoff that gives you no reason to like him. I do feel like starting nocturne they focused too much on the appearance of the world more than integrating the story into it. I played 1 and 2 on emulator a long time ago and it was fascinating the battles were secondary compared to the exploration and world interaction. Though i worry we may never get that again if Japan's SMT fanbae is anything like ours.

[@leixalkvinay2729]

Eh, Sahori is disliked by the same reasons as Yuzuru, they barely have any relevance to the story, the game tries to make you feel bad for their deaths and overall they felt out of place, as if they needed far more time or a better use of their scarce time on screen. Persona has nothing to do, since most people barely corelate SMT V and Persona outside of some demon desing and Dasai loking like Ryuji.

[@tundra2861]

They fell off?

[@Rimalogo]

I am a huge fan of the series, I've been playing since middle school and I understand the concern but I feel like the most important thing about any RPG is having a good story, SMT1 and 2 are p good, smt 3 is very meh, smt 4 is amazing and apocalypse was a disaster, i've been worried about the series because of 5, I disagree with a lot of things with this video especially in terms of demons as I think that mythology is less important than having a good story

[@ItsShaz1]

Ayyy

[@thatonetrainer5818]

Great vid also what song plays at 19:20?

[@Plasmyte]

"Action" from the first Devil Survivor game :)

[@UmDevoto]

The smt franchise really lost its way but look nobody talks about it, only people like us that played the older games nobody wants to play snes and ds games in 2022 so the "new" players dont actually know what in fact is SMT, what it is? Should it be a game with demons? A horror game? Should it be moving around with religious theme or maybe it should be more like japanese cartoons? Persona got way more famous so People always come to play the new SMT game, not the opposite anymore, the old fans most of them just grew up, It never was a big community. Although smt4(the original one) was a good throwback *TO WHAT WAS GOOD IN THE EARLY GAMES*

[@Luna-pk7gz]

this reads like it came from an elitist. and before the accusations start coming, I have played SMT I and Strange Journey lmao.

[@UmDevoto]

@@Luna-pk7gz one person playing them is a exception not the law. Theres anything in my comment that you would actually point out as wrong and try to actually talk about or you are Just a kid with a anime pic trying to sound different?

[@billyboleson2830]

Most people started with nocturne or 4 and don’t know about 1 and 2

[@cheese3277]

smt has lost its touched over the time

[@cheese3277]

@sergio kelyimporta imo 4 5 and 4a are not as good as the rest

[@billyboleson2830]

Smt was never good

[@cheese3277]

@@billyboleson2830 explain then why it was never good

[@sbstnoliveira]

Pretty good analysis! Basically, I agree with everything and I hope that the developers realize that soon enough. JRPGs generally have bad stories and poor design, SMT was the exception.... unfortunately not anymore.

[@Plasmyte]

Let's stay optimistic for the future of the series! :)

[@smtandearthboundsuck8400]

Nah these kinds of games are what pleases the market. They won’t change. Megaten is dead! I have more hope for Trauma center. A TC2 remake is very much needed First Oddworld, then Little Big Planet, Paper Mario, Xenogears… and now Megaten. Beloved game franchises of my childhood that died horribly.

[@ltb1345]

What?? JRPGs generally have great stories and good design. In fact, most of the best stories in gaming come from JRPGs. Are you high?

[@sbstnoliveira]

@@ltb1345 If you think convoluted and meaningless philosophical arguments with shounen tropes are great stories, that's your opinion... I just strongly disagree xp

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

The Xeno franchise has better stories then the entire SMT series lmao.

[@UmDevoto]

Also noticed how they really made demons and angels equal? which is a sin. In the early games angels were right, of course they are, but, the way they are doing things(SMT 1) its the problem, chaos were always bad and was a way of "choose the other side and see whats happen" way for the players to replay the game, was cool.

[@cheese3277]

smt 5 is pretty bad imo

[@alsaiduq4363]

Nice video. I still wathcing but so far you clearly know what you talking about it.

[@cheese3277]

based video

[@lemontheneet]

Man, this video is so well made and deserves more attention.

[@krv3]

I have soooo so much to say about this video and I almost completely agree with you on all aspects. Making the figures act like they do in mythology matters and while I would say its great to make them do things they otherwise wouldn't do, it shouldn't be completely out of character. MAKE YOUR WRITING MAKE SENSE! Like with Dagda, all they had to do was give some sort of explanation for his behavior but as far as I'm aware that never comes up. He's just there to be creepy with his nihilism and all. Like give us a story about Danu throwing him into a pit of babies and it scared him so bad that he wanted to fuck up everyone's lives I DON'T KNOW. About the designs though, and also being a big Kamen Rider fanboy #lol I think that sort of direction could have been fucking Fire As Fuck. Rider suits have all these motifs and shit like Its not impossible to make Yamato Takeru be both accurate and badass. Or Odin even, but yeah sorry if this is all over the place I just wanted to traumadump about thw topic because I'm a cold blooded hater actually and I hope SMT flops into hell. Best video ever.

[@blackorcshagrat8587]

I can't claim to know all the details, but I've heard production of IV: Apocalypse didn't really go as well as planned. One of the side quests of previous game involved Dagda's cauldron and Brigid, his daughter in the myths, suggesting his incarnation in Apocalypse was originally meant to be more faithful to the myths. I've also heard it said that there was an unused plotline of Dagda being resentful of YHVH taking Brigid and turning her into a monotheistic saint. Which would have been a reference to how there are people in real life who believe the mother saint of Ireland, Saint Brigid of Kildare, is a syncretization of Christianity and the original Celtic goddess. There's also the common explanation that Dagda has witnessed the war between angels, demons and humans multiple times and has grown tired of the cycle repeating itself and humans making the exact same mistakes over and over again, growing more and more cynical and bitter as a result. (Although you are correct: If it's meant to be the true reason, it's definitely not established well enough in the game).

[@Luna-pk7gz]

Hoping a series flops is cringe as hell, I really hope you grow up.

[@krv3]

Why do u care bro

[@Mon-9936]

Great video, and even If I really like Smt IV, I cant deny the flaws it has from gameplay (Smirk´s unstable pace or neutral side quests), story (Walter n Jonathans characters being forcibly changed for mekabah and lucifer) and design (well I didnt have any problems here but respecting the mythology is essencial in my opinion) perspectives. Still I feel IV is the least problematic entry in my opinion since yeah It was created with the purpose of bringing SMT I & II feelings to modern consoles but It still feels it has its own merits and innovations from within, contrary from IV:A or V since IV:A feels more like a fanservice what If no one asked for with a one of the bunch story, Out of character deities, bizarre or bland desings, ETC , and V emulating Nocturne cant be supported as an Idea using IV´s development since in IVs case those OG games arent in ATLUS comeback list and probably never will but Nocturne? It got remasters everywhere and a constant presence of Demifiend in merch or other titles, so there was no point in that and just came out as lazy writing (Also Abdiel´s design FUCKING SUCKS).

[@Mistersleep08]

Can we all agree that idun is the best girl.

[@vanilla8956]

No. She's boring.

[@Mistersleep08]

@@vanilla8956 says the person with a sexualized cult of the lamb profile pic.

[@vanilla8956]

@@Mistersleep08 I don't see the connection. Can you explain?

[@Mistersleep08]

@@vanilla8956 no🚪🏃

[@vanilla8956]

@@Mistersleep08 Weird. They could have at least made her look somewhat supernatural design wise. If she wasn't floating you'd think she's a human character