Expressive Platformers | A New Sub-Genre

[@loveandpeace3345]

This is literally Maximilian Dood’s, “tight or loose” discussion with fighting games, but for platformers

[@hiddensoundtest1444]

That's what I was thinking too

[@ThePengumCrew]

I like Dood's nomenclature better. It feels less vague to say "this game has a tightly/loosely-designed moveset" rather than "this is an expressive platformer". Also, saying a platformer is "not expressive" gives a negative connotation to games with less complex movesets like Crash, Astro Bot and Spelunky.

[@DontKnowDontCare6.9]

Maximillian Doodie AKA Nickelback vocalist Chad Kroeger overreacts at the smallest things. And a paid shill for Capcom. John is just chill.

[@perfectzerord]

Is Tony hawk an expressive platformer

[@wizawhat]

Yeah kinda!

[@thatbasedgamer7607]

tony hawk tuah

[@astr0sauce]

@@thatbasedgamer7607no

[@thatbasedgamer7607]

@@astr0sauce I didn't want to talk tuah you anyways

[@shawnherrigermusic]

100%

[@weegeetime6494]

I think a good definition for an "expressive" platformer comes down to two heuristics: 1. Can you chain your movement actions (jump, wall-jump, roll) together? 2. Do those actions synergize when done consecutively? And so if the answer is yes to both, then it's probably an expressive platformer.

[@DontKnowDontCare6.9]

Expressive platformers simply means if the main character/s of the game shows enough personality when he moves in a game.

[@Arcad3n]

A bit strange to see Galaxy mentioned as an expressive platformer (even if low on the scale) when it’s my go-to example of a non-expressive platformer, and Sunshine only mentioned at the end by saying it’s much less expressive than Penny’s Big Breakaway, when Sunshine is one of my favorite platformers of all time specifically for being an incredibly expressive game. Sunshine has a nearly endless skill ceiling that has kept me hooked for years, and I didn’t even grow up with the game. But regardless, long live the expressive platformer!

[@Ezaluna]

This. FLUDD may not be as expressive as Cappy, but it's certainly an extremely expressive gimmick nonetheless. And Galaxy's lack of expressiveness is what makes it my least favorite 3D Mario, the moveset feels slow and clunky and without much freedom.

[@mredbadger]

I think it makes sense to spotlight recent examples from smaller studios rather than the entire video just being Mario

[@Arcad3n]

@@Ezaluna same. I’m a sucker for vibes in a game, and Galaxy has HEAPS of it. It’s just a shame the game is the exact same gameplay experience every time you play it due to the slow and stripped down moveset, so I don’t replay it much anymore.

[@HoboJoe007]

I only learned in my most recent playthrough of Sunshine just how expressive it can be. I only just learned that you can spin jump while using the turbo nozzle and use first person camera to aim yourself during the spin. Makes me want to try collecting tons of shines using only the turbo nozzle

[@astr0sauce]

i disagree a lot. i think galaxy 1 and 2 did so much with the moves they had and the experience of sunshine always felt messy to me like it’s so jank sometimes

[@creativealias85]

this definitely aligns with something i’ve been thinking. 3D platformers tend to be at their best when level design is approached with the mindset of a child set loose in a furniture store. it’s fun to climb one piece, jump off of it to the next, i know it’s a bit of a design buzzword but being in a “flow state” really is the best way to describe it.

[@SuperFromND]

pseudoregalia definitely falls on the higher end of this expressiveness scale; at the start you're really not able to do much more than "walk, jump, maybe a slide", but by the end you turn into this clown fiesta of a character that can do wall-kicks, cancel out of ground pounds for a bit of extra height, ride on the surface of a wall, etc., and all of this lets you completely decimate the game's levels (which are designed to be traversed in a ton of ways owing to its metroidvania nature) it's hands-down one of the best 3d platformers i've played to date, and its like 5 bucks on steam, highly recommended!

[@rileyn2983]

Yeah I loved that game! You should also check out The Big Catch: Tacklebox. It's somehow completely free, and someone who worked on Pseudoregalia also worked on it. Definitely has a similar vibe as well with the retro 3D graphics. And personally I like the movement even better than Pseudoregalia

[@panampace]

I own Pseudoregalia, it seems like it’s going to be great but good lord all the rooms look the same, I get that it’s probably designed to be a metroidvania so getting lost is a part of it, but everything being gray boxes makes me *too* lost!

[@thelenbax8497]

@@panampace the dev added a map in one of the updates if that helps

[@Stormkyleis]

I hope this catches on because I'm tired of explaining why I love Mario 64

[@panampace]

The whole thing can be explained by: “So you know how it’s fun to just run and jump around outside in front of the castle?”

[@CaptainJLinebeck]

One of the reasons I love Pizza Tower is how the ranking and combo system encourages you to master Peppino and The Noise's moveset, making getting P ranks feel extremely rewarding.

[@Terranigma23]

I recommand to follow the development of the upcoming platformer "The Big Catch". It looks so good and there is a huge demo available on Steam now. :)

[@crtchicanery9605]

be careful not to associate "expressive" with "lots of moves." marble blast is one of the most expressive games ever and it only has a standard jump. also that game released in 2002, which is still six whole years after mario 64, so idk why we're calling this new.

[@TheRedGuy]

A couple other examples not listed here are Pseudoregalia and The Big Catch: Tacklebox. Pseudoregalia has the most impressive moveset in any 3D platformer I've played, nearly every move has multiple uses and they combine together really well. You have a Mario styled backflip, but you can combine that with the slide to super jump. You have a groundpound that you can jump out of for a lot of height, but it can be canceled to give you some extra air time and grab ledges you otherwise couldn't. And it has the best wall jumping in any game. You can also bunnyhop if you get enough speed. Also it's a Metroidvania where you unlock all these moves, so you could get different combinations of moves at different times which makes you approach platforming sections differently. This game also works extremely well with a randomizer. The game is only $6, go play it. And then there's The Big Catch: Tacklebox, this is a sort of prequel demo for what will be The Big Catch. While the moveset isn't as expansive as Pseudoregalia and you have it all at the start, it's still really fun to use. The game has a lot of momentum so you can also bunnyhop here, and it's easier to do. You have a fishing rod that can be used to grapple which has a lot of uses, and you can wall run. This is also a really challenging platformer, you really get tested in some of the areas. The game is also an open collectathon where you have Breath of the Wild style sand surfing to get to each area, and the collectables are fish that will run away from you and you need to figure out how to catch them. It's kinda like Ape Escape. The Tacklebox is so good, playing it made The Big Catch go from one of my most anticipated games, to my number 1 most anticipated game right now. The Tacklebox is also free, go play it right now.

[@panampace]

I’m early into pseudoregalia and I find the kick/wall jump super unintuitive. I just can’t get a feel for what to expect out of the timing and angle. Took me ages just to get up the first ledge with it because I couldn’t understand what the hell it was doing. Like why do i need to preemptively prepare a wall jump before I’m even touching the wall? I see the potential, but the unusual controls plus how wide the map opens up meanwhile all the environments look the same so I keep going in circles, I had to tap out

[@TheRedGuy]

@@panampace It's not a normal wall jump, and it can take some getting used to if you've mostly played games with more rigid wall jumping, but I think you should keep practicing because it's super rewarding to get good at. It is a wall kick, and think of it like that instead of a wall jump, you're kicking off the wall instead of a Mario styled one where you attach to the wall and jump off. Having it be preemptive allows for some really cool tech, first it gives you a bit of a speed boost in the air as well as a bit of an air stall. It also extends your hitbox so you can hit walls from farther than you'd first think. The hitbox also lingers, as long as your foot is out, it will kick off a wall, this allows you to just barely hit walls that would otherwise be too far away if you time it just right. You can also combine it with the aerial backflip you get with the ground pound ability, if you just barely don't reach the top of a ledge, you can do the backflip and grab it after kicking off it. The thing you need to keep in mind is the angle you bounce off a wall is determined by the angle you hit the wall, if you hit a wall straight on, you will bounce directly away from it, like a Mario Odyssey wall jump. But if you come at the wall at horizontal angle, that's how you'll bounce off it. You can almost travel across a wall if you kick it while nearly parallel to it. Right after you get the ability the way out has lights bouncing off walls, that's a tutorial on how it works. The way the light is bouncing off the walls is the direction you'll bounce off the walls if you hit it from the same angle. Also right after that on the top floor of the library there's a breakable wall with an optional wall kick challenge, it can be tough starting out, but it's a good place to practice. Try to find corners in walls, you can climb them by kicking off one wall and onto the other.

[@Cam-jm9lk]

A game that I would consider an expressive platformer is one called Pseudoregalia. It’s an open zone 3d game that has movement that has multiple branching ways to move through the game and multiple ways to solve each problem. It’s normally $6 on steam, but right now it’s on sale for less than $5. I highly recommend it.

[@ThaThree]

Pseudoregalia is the most expressive platformer I've played in years

[@DuBstepAnDa98]

Penny's Big Breakaway is so great. The movement in it feels incredible. Glad to see it being acknowledged here. Also its kinda funny how Nintendo retroactively added the dive into Mario 3D World lol. Too good of a move to let go.

[@RicochetForce]

I’d say something like Psuedoregalia and Lunistice are also examples of expressive platformers

[@gamepreserver]

This made me realize I enjoy non-expressive platformers more.

[@_CNT_]

Yeah I'd much rather have a tight and good designed level with a small moveset than a game with an "expressive" moveset which usually translates to "ignore the level design"

[@raymondbenito1405]

I like both. I hope one day we get a game that nails both sides, because the non-expressive ones usually have the stronger level design.

[@marinab8205]

I'm being reminded of my Trine 5 playthrough with a friend. It's a puzzle platformer but the fame has too many mechanics for there to just be one solution to solve a puzzle. We've built many ridiculous stacks of boxes, hanging on ropes to push down certain switches, and pull of bobsensical jumping manouvers and only realize the "intended solution" after already solving it in a ridiculous unintended fashion.

[@chrisjohnson9542]

Have you played the whole trine series? I'm curious because I see them on sale quite often on the eshop and I'm interested but just not really sure if I will like them. Are they similar to metroidvanias? Which ones are the best in the series out of 1 through 4? Also are they fun for just 1 player or do you need multiple players to really enjoy them?

[@marinab8205]

@@chrisjohnson9542 the puzzles adjust according to the player count but I highly recommend playing in coop. We lost our 3rd player over the years and playing as just 2 people is already a major downgrade, but still enjoyable Trine 4 is the best one imho, Trine 2 is also great. Haven't played the 1st one. The 3rd one is the black sheep of the series, they went to full 3D rather than 2D and failed to make it work. In the end they released Trine 3 in a half-finished state. And I do mean that, the game just quits after half the story because they ran out of money to finish it.

[@marinab8205]

@@chrisjohnson9542 to answer the genre question: they're linear puzzle platformers. You progress left to right through each level, and there's obstacles like locked doors or enemies that you need to overcome. The replay value is in finding secret items throughout the levels.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

i've seen enough 3D platformer speedruns to say that this ain't a sub-genre is just a perk of Platformers, good controls make for good toys

[@asafolarin102999]

Going by your definition, Mario World and the OG Sonic games were pioneers of the expressive platformer, with Mario 64 successfully bringing that concept into the third dimension. Also, since I'm already seeing these types of comments: non-expressive playformer =/= bad design. It's just a different design philosophy. I love Crash 1, not in spite of its limited moveset but *because* of it. Of all the Crash games, I find it to be the most tightly designed. Same goes for Sonic Unleashed's Day Stages. Sometimes, I prefer a game with a strict set of mechanics and linear level design that will test your reflexes. Other times, I like things being open-ended. There's room for both as long as it's well designed and fun!

[@Drybones2015]

The metric of what can be an "expressive platformer" seems too vague and varying for it to be considered an actual subgenre of platformers. Like, obstacle course vs sandbox vs open world are pretty well defined enough that you can just look at gameplay and there's no debate to be had. Genres don't require scales, like to say, "On a scale of 1 to 10, how much if a sandbox platformer are you?". You either are or aren't.

[@vertecies]

Is a classic 2D snake game expressive platformer 😅

[@panampace]

I don’t like calling it a genre, but I do like the term. It’s a platformer with a wide variety of moves you can chain together. That’s all there is to it.

[@KidAL0]

You see Nate, every platformer falls into two categories:

[@leonpgut]

While I haven't played the original Demon Turf, I love the expansion/sequel Demon Turf: Neon Splash. You can build up a lot of momentum with the wheel move and speedrunning those levels feels so good.

[@bcf789]

Great that you've brought more attention to this, but I HARD disagree that sunshine isn't an expressive platformer. I also feel like Mario 64 deserved at least a mention since its probably the 1st game that could be considered an expressive 3D platformer.

[@tomlion0116]

Leaving out SM64 and Sunshine is just wrong!

[@DontKnowDontCare6.9]

Mario games are the platinum standard for 3D platforming. People are not even impressed no more, theyre just used to it.

[@justinkeena6617]

Expert players turn Super Monkey Ball into an expressive platformer, almost.

[@GVG]

I'd agree!

[@chuckbatman5]

This video has finally put into words why I love running around in Mario Odyssey so much but genuinely cannot stand playing Mario 3D World for more than like an hour at a time. I thought it was just the openness vs linearity but even playing Bowser's Fury with its open level design I found myself not having as good of a time because I just really hate how tight and inflexible 3D World's control scheme is, even with the improvements it took from Odyssey in its remake. The cat suit in theory should be what gives that game more expressiveness, but even that falls short in my opinion, never quite giving me as much freedom of movement as I want it to.

[@panampace]

I wish they put Odyssey’s moveset into Bowser’s Fury, because I loved that map but the lack of moves felt so janky

[@panampace]

I like the term! It describes exactly what I love about certain games and exactly the type of game I’m developing

[@protocetid]

Maybe it's the lack of sleep, but an expressive X makes me think of something related to emotions, like those sentimental indie sidescrollers. Since the characters in this subgenre move more and twirl around in the air longer maybe it should be called an acrobatic platformer?

[@kaloncpu57]

Mario Odyssey kept me playing for SOOOO long after beating it (and I still even watch people play the multiplayer mod or revisit for a short time myself), and it was such a huge step forward in platformers for me... and then I played Demon Turf (and Neon Splash and Tower) and went through the same experience. I've now put so much time into speedrunning Demon Turf stuff, and I really believe the Fabraz team deserve to have coined the "expressive platformer" sub-genre. I cannot wait for their *Project Tides" game to come out.

[@HPZoner]

Great video, Jon. It's a fantastic genre, though I've never loved the name. Personally, I've always felt like 'freestyle platformer' was a better fit, all things considered.

[@CalebWillden]

Ah, I think you've nailed down one of the big reasons I love the Ori games so much! I feel like I can use my moveset to get around in various, fluid, ways, even in unintended ways to do minor sequence breaks and it feels super rewarding.

[@Pietruszek]

I think it’s good to mention this feature is not really limited to 3D platformers. Maddy Thorson’s Towerfall:Ascension and Celeste are great examples of that

[@TainoMoya]

love this sub-genre i like it when games are expressive. mario odyssey was so fun because of this

[@definitelynotapervert5602]

I think Crash 3 should be considered an expressive platformer, especially when you gain all the abilities when you beat the final boss. The slide, rocket launcher and extended spin allow for a number of ways to traverse through the levels despite their deliberate linear design. Also, I think SA1 should be way on top in terms of expressiveness. The amount of ways you can skip entire sections of a level through the spin dash jump combo alone is so insane and it allows you to navigate the game however you want.

[@Scrubber89]

Strange that Mario Sunshine isn’t mentioned but Galaxy and 3D World are. I would say Sunshine is way more expressive than those two.

[@GVG]

Just didn't want to fill the video with non-stop Mario. You're probably right that it's more expressive than Galaxy but these mechanics are just a little more interesting for demonstration

[@wizawhat]

Great breakdown. Right now it feels as though indies are leading the charge when it comes to expressive platforming. For more games I recommend people check out Pseudoregalia, Spark The Electric Jester 3, and Super Sami Roll, as well as to keep their eyes on upcoming projects like Rollin Rascal, The Big Catch, and Project Tides (which Jon is doing some voiceover for if anyone is interested in).

[@CiromBreeze]

Yessss, Spark 3 is so good!

[@Gusmed007]

Metroid Dread (and any Metroidvania, probably) starts not really expressive, but lets you pull some crazy stuff after the halfway point.

[@lillydoodle6195]

I love demon turf, idk why no one ever seems to talk about it

[@CaptBurgerson]

Movement vs shmovement

[@_hollowsky]

Shots for every time expressive is said

[@HotdogDivebomb]

I feel like SM64 and A Hat in Time should have been mentioned here.

[@UDPlaythroughs1990]

Neon White?

[@NinjaFaceGames]

Super Sami Roll is pretty fantastic in this regard, it's not perfect but I still recommend people try it. Honestly the way you're describing this reminds me of how I'd describe how mission structure should be in immersive sims.

[@keaultra]

I've been making a Co-op expressive platformer! I didn't know it was a sub genre til now, Now I definitely wanna go all in with that, but I do want non-expressive elements. I don't want the level to be broken. but rather you can do whatever you want in the level, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll fully complete it or can overcome every obstacle.. I think a good balance makes a great expressive game

[@20000dino]

It’s baffling that you didn’t cover Jak and Daxter.

[@MelodiCat753]

Super good video. Learned a lot I hadn't really thought about but definitely felt in terms of games I enjoy.

[@dynastylobster8957]

i think "expresiveness" is not the greatest word to use because it sounds like youre talking about animation

[@CarbyGuuGuu]

That’s what came to my mind as well, because I immediately thought of Crash Bandicoot as it was the very first time I would see so many facial expressions in a platformer.

[@chuckbatman5]

Yeah I think fluidity is a better term to describe this because it relates more specifically to movement

[@leaftune4427]

Yeah, fluid is a good name. I have also called a fair few of these technical or combo platformers. Ori and the Blind Forest has the air jump that can be seemlessly reset with the bash. (So you can do normal jump, air jump, bash, air jump, glide, and can continue it with more bashes. Or in a lot of cases just bash a bunch.) Hollowknight has this as well where the air jump can be reset with a pogo attack, which can lead to some lovely combos with the side dash.

[@panampace]

“Player expression” is already a common term to describe this kind of gameplay control, so it’s fitting. Why else would someone call *platforming* expressive?

[@20000dino]

@@panampace This. Like I work in the animation field, and I absolutely disagree with OP’s statement. Additionally, “fluidity” is also heavily used as a term in animation, so I really don’t get these suggestions lol.

[@Wimpyfox]

Good definition although perhaps a better name could be chosen as labelling a platformer as "Not expressive" (atleast to me) seems to have negative undertones which isnt really true.

[@sonickhable]

I'd give more time to sunshine or Mario 64 than mention Galaxy, which is much less expressive

[@IcyXzavien]

I wasn't sure how I felt about the sub-genre name when it was first coined by Fabraz, but it's grown on me since then. I do like it a lot more than if it was called a 64-like or mario-like or something.

[@waowao-n9f]

Pseudoregalia and the demo for 500 caliber contractz. I think both of these definitely fit in to this genre. Both awesome games.

[@Falco.exe93]

John, you guys need to get Nitro Rad in the channel to talk about either platformers or horror games

[@By-the_Way]

I was shocked to see how everyone was making such ingenious use of the hat jump in Mario Odyssey when I was simply using the electric wires and wall jumps...

[@chavotoons]

Kinda sad that this genre is no longer called "Scrimblo Bimblo"

[@TownDarling]

That’s just a different name for a mascot platformer, which aren’t all expressive (see Crash)

[@Drybones2015]

It was never called that, lol. That's was just a meme made by the Smash Bros. community.

[@kasig2013]

I am. I always hated that stupid name.

[@epicwade6346]

I prefer to call them momentum platformers but scrimblo bimbo 😂 10/10

[@DontKnowDontCare6.9]

DAFUQS a Scrimblo Bimblo...

[@Fabrazz]

Lovely video! The way I usually summarize it now-a-days: How many different movement options do you have to cross the same gap? If it's a lot, it's expressive!

[@grumpyoldfartman]

Y’know… I’ve been thinking the next step the Megaman X series should take is to become a 3D platformer and I’d always imagined it as a game that was more fast paced with jump mechanics that would allow you freedom to move around the level however you please. Expressive 3D platformer is exactly the kind of vibe I was thinking of! Astrobot already feels like a solid swing in that direction with the power ups you can get in levels to radically change the game play. Getting powers from bosses to discover secrets in levels would be so awesome

[@akilp7999]

I'd be curious what Kirby and the Forgotten Land would be considered. Each of the individual power ups have relatively limited movesets, but there are so many to choose from

[@C_Arson]

As a big Kirby fan, I'd say Kirby games (including Forgotten Land) don't fall under the "expressive platformer" category because while the copy abilities give you different ways to tackle various challenges, the copy abilities are mostly combat-oriented, and don't help you much with platforming, if at all. Certain abilities do have some movement-related benefits, but they're certainly nothing deep - they'd rank low on the "expressive movement" scale.

[@panampace]

On this note, I’ll add that Banjo-Kazooie doesn’t really qualify either. Wide variety of moves, but you don’t really chain them together. Each move has a specific use for a specific occasion.

[@Althar9809]

I immediately thought about Tinykin, very great, but short, game.

[@jigenos4546]

Thank to you I can finally put a word on it !! The expressiveness in the controls of a platformer!! That's exactly the reason why I always loved Super Mario Sunshine despite its obvious shortcomings, to say the least I can finally put a word on the why this game is my favourite Mario by far 😌 When I play Galaxy after Sunshine I really feel like Mario is limited in its responsiveness, speed and overall... freedom !

[@it4040]

I'd say its more of a spectrum, not a sub-genre

[@Needwagon4Speedwagon]

Demon turf looks like Srb2 without engine limitations, very cool

[@DreamscapeGary]

I'm shaking and Crying! I cannot believe you didn't bring up "Spark The Electric Jester 3"

[@geo_101]

🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨WARNING JONNER JUST DROPPED🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨

[@mredbadger]

I’m glad there this kind of gameplay is becoming more popular. It was such a downer that the freedom to take wild shortcuts in Sonic Adventure was seen as a bad thing by Sega, who then made 3D Sonic into a bunch of scripted sequences and QTE’s bandaged together with short slow platforming. Like a teacher punishing a student for finding a creative solution to a problem and forcing them to repeat the work ‘correctly’ Indie games and Mario Odyssey have shown that it’s actually fun to see how far you can push a game’s movement mechanics

[@panampace]

A lot of commenters aren’t really getting the point. This is a term for fans of a specific type of gameplay, to concisely describe that gameplay. Like me: Just “platformer” doesn’t tell me enough to know if I might be interested. I don’t give a shit about collecting, linearity, or mascot characters - I like platformers *specifically* when they have a lot of fun flexibility and tricks to pull off with the movement. So if I hear “expressive platformer” I’m gonna say ooh nice I’ll check this out

[@AndySola]

Would A Hat In Time be considered to be an expressive plattformer?

[@panampace]

Definitely

[@RakastanPorkkanakakkua]

Yes. Especially when you use that no bonk badge.

[@bemblob]

im not really sure if Pennys Big Breakaway is more expressive then Sunshine as you mention, Sunshine is ridiculous with how much you can do. At there very least they’re the same level

[@Wiizpig]

It's a good way to put in words what you can feel with Mario 64 (still the best one)

[@asdfxcvbn746]

sorry guys, not using their stupid new vernacular to market their indie game & describe a genre thats been around for decades. this is just.... wait for it... a platformer. if we ever wanted to get funky with the naming, we'd call it a mascot platformer. but this is just a platformer. nothing more, nothing less.

[@Jamsch101]

We need more AAA expressive platformers

[@lysergicserpent7676]

Should I play Demon Turf? I remember briefly giving the demo a try a while back and I thought it felt a little sluggish but I teally didn't spend much time with it.

[@frempy4426]

Feels remiss not to mention NSMB Wii since its addition of the twirl jump thing really changed the game that way

[@KaeIsyn]

What about Balan Wonderworld? Jokes aside, amazing video! Pseudoregalia and The Big Catch: Tacklebox are for sure 10/10 games on the expressiveness scale.

[@Michirin9801]

Mario 64's expressiveness was kinda accidental... But that's precisely why I think it's one of the best in that regard!

[@VileplumeTea]

Wait 1:54 footage from CookiestMonster. Is this the same Cookie Monster from PS Access' Alex's cheated platinum on sackboy? Lol

[@jordanfish]

The kids are calling it schmovement

[@HaitaniMasayuki]

Good old Fabrax at it again :D

[@jffaust]

Such a cool genre!

[@AdondeBoy]

PENNY MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️

[@abhijithravikumar5300]

Kinda sad that A Hat in Time wasn't brought up.

[@denischen8196]

If a platformer is too expressive, players can learn to rely on one strategy to skip through almost all the challenges. And if you try to design the levels to prevent that, it would be too hard for first time playthroughs. If a platformer is not expressive enough, there would not be enough complexity to create interesting challenges that don't rely too much on timing and reflexes. Where would Celeste be on the expressivity scale?

[@CiromBreeze]

Beebz detected in the thumbnail! Demon Turf is such a good game.

[@Moonstrider]

Good bunch of platformers here. Sonic Adventure is neat!

[@moneykenny119]

Odyssey been out for 7 years and not a single platformer since has offered as great of a moveset

[@justintendo4302]

Agree, it’s literally perfect and I can’t wait to see what Nintendo can do next

[@RonaKurona]

Glover is still the king of expressive platformers

[@MicaiahBaron]

Dangit, now expressive isn't a word any more, not in my head. 😅

[@gluttonousmaximus9048]

My guess is Kirby typically isn't...

[@Wiizpig]

Definitely not

[@josephtaylor9081]

Yay more video game jargon to use at cocktail parties 🥳

[@GamerFunOriginallyAarush]

EPIC!

[@GameFreak164X]

What's sad about a game like Odyssey is that there's not much of a reason to uses its expressive platforming outside of speed-running. I prefer to actually be challenged within the game itself, rather than having the tools to do cool stuffy without ever being required to use it. I get much a lot more out of a challenging "non-expressive" game like DKC or Crash than an extremely easy "expressive" game like Odyssey.

[@bluudevil4483]

Why no one is talking about spark 3 on switch

[@mredbadger]

Be the change you would like to see in the world

[@Rubberman202]

Disappointed to see no mention of Banjo-Kazooie or Banjo-Tooie, I think those are very expressive platformers, though some levels allow you to use more methods of collecting stuff than others (Treasure Trove Cove in particular comes to mind, what with the ability to fly allowing you to get certain Jiggies more easily).

[@20000dino]

I would definitely not call Super Mario Galaxy an expressive platformer. It’s not “low” on the expressiveness spectrum, it just isn’t expressive. Doesn’t make it a bad game, of course. Also, only mentioning Sunshine at the end by saying it’s not expressive when compared to another platformer… are you actually serious rn lmao. I love you John, but this ain’t it.

[@XiTSlash]

Movement is the most important thing in a 3D platformer for me, that's why Mario 64 is still one of the best 3D platformers of all time only below Mario Odyssey, which has the best movement on any 3D platformer (or even any game) ever.

[@LREHAnimation]

I thought you were gonna show the bear game :(

[@adrianvictorv]

Quite the advertisement

[@SackboySupreme]

Okay, what about Start Wars Jedi Survivor?

[@DrLilo]

Goes entire video without discussing Mario 64, the game that invented the whole damn thing XD

[@chavotoons]

I thought it was Jumping Flash

[@DrLilo]

@@chavotoons Is that an expressive platformer? I don't think I'd use that term...

[@wylerXL]

i got confuse for awhile. i thought expressive meaning character expressions and reactions. but what you talk about is complicated character movement. easy to learn, but hard to master.

[@GabMacedoo]

“Expressive” is an awful word to explain what you mean.

[@ThaThree]

Seems to be a pretty standard term now, I knew exactly what he meant before I clicked the video. Maybe you've not come across it in this context before?

[@panampace]

Yeah a lot of people coming in the comments that have never heard the term “player expression” before. If it’s a bad term to you, then you must not be a big fan of platformers, in which case you need not worry about the term because it makes perfect sense to people who like this gameplay

[@andrewoliver1330]

I am bummed out that most of these modern ones don't work for me. Demon Turf, 2D character and overall Art Direction, gives me a headache :/ Penny, I wanted to love but it just didnt click 😬😭 that art direction and gameplay just missed. I hope I enjoy their next game I don't have ps5 but Sackboy and the new AstroBot seem cool Odyssey is my least favorite 3D Mario, didnt like the shift to Moons and even some of the movement 🤷‍♂️, the only Mario game I dont enjoy replaying, too many meh objectives. I am a Galaxy 1,2, 3D World + Bowser Fury guy. All this to say I am happy other people can enjoy games that didnt click for me I strongly dislike Rougelikes and speedrunning So modern gaming KZbinr darlings mostly miss for me Oh wells. Good video for things I am mostly not into, just not my preferred platformer, I dont need needless style or expression, I want what I find fun.