External VS Internal Frame Packs for Bushcraft

In this video I discuss the pros and cons of Internal and External frame backpacks for bushcraft while also talking about my vintage Camp Trails backpack and what I plan to do with it
Amazing Wilderness Head Scarf • EconoChallenge Head Scarf

[@Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival]

You did touch on a major difference and one I would also like to throw in my 2 cents worth on. The higher one can carry the load, the more comfortable the load will be to carry with all other factors being equal. The reason is that the higher a load is, the less one has to bend over at the waist to balance that load. A person can walk with a more normal posture when the load is carried high. With the majority of weight carried low, one has to bend over quite a bit in order to get that load over the hips and center of gravity. The more abnormal posture one is forced to use, the more that muscles will be employed in ways that they are not used to and thus the greater ones discomfort will be. Another major advantage to a external frame is the ability to carry abnormal shaped or sized loads. I have several large top loading back packs that are one very large open central chamber from the top all the way to the bottom. However they are not large enough openings to enable me to slip a moose hind quarter into. So as a result I need to lash the moose quarter onto the frame. Other odd sized loads such as loaded 5 gallon buckets, small outboard boat motors or a myriad of other odd sized loads can be carried on an external frame but not in a pack. As you explained, the internal frame packs excel in other areas. So in the end it is nice to be able to have both pack types.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I think that says it all...the right pack for the right job. I agree, the higher you carry the heavier items the easier it is, until you start bushwacking of course. Externals do excel at weight carrying though. I like the idea of just adding something removable to the frame, like a duffel or maybe a small barrel. Thanks for commenting Lonnie

[@randal1470]

Far North Bushcraft And Survival great points, I learned so much from outfitters and guides I worked for as a young man in Alberta, a lot of that stuff gets very apparent once you are packing 150-200 lbs of meat. The good designs and bad designs all sort themselves out in a hurry!

[@EconoChallenge]

Wow. Some ideas here that I never considered. Just another reason to read the comments. Thanks, Lonnie.

[@Lawson80]

Hi mate, I know this is a little late, but I'd like to offer some advise on packs and suspension systems. I have a few different types of packs; but by far my favorite pack is my external frame Frontier Gear of Alaska "Hunter Pack" from Barney’s Sports Chalet. You choose the frame and pack separately, and their built quality is some of the best in the world. Frontier Gear of Alaska is not cheap, but as they saying goes ... "Good gear isn't cheap, and cheap gear isn't good." I live in Australia, so with the added cost of delivery, this was a HUGE investment for me to make: but it was also one of the best gear investments I've ever made. The comfort level greatly surpasses all my other packs, and this is all due to their suspension system, and so now, hiking to the destination is something I look forward to, instead of dreading. If you've ever watched a video showing an Alaskan Guide, 9 times out of 10 he will have one of these packs on his back. I'm sure if you contact them, you could discuss not only buying a pack, but also the suspension system without the frame .... just my two cents worth mate, hope it helps, and thanks for the great vids :)

[@Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival]

@@Lawson80 The frame you mention is the frame that I have also and do really like it. They go the extra mile there at "Barney's Sport Chalet" in Anchorage Alaska to put together a pack frame system designed to carry heavy loads as comfortable as possible.

[@jeffreylarson3508]

I read the Complete Walker 3 by Colin Fletcher in the early 80's, which sparked my interest in Hiking and Backpacking. My first pack was a kelty super tioga. After a few years with the tioga I switched to internal frame packs, Arcteryx, Osprey, Rei etc and never found an internal frame that carried as well and as comfortable as my super tioga. I even went with a custom made pack! Fast forward 30 plus years and I was happy to see that Kelty was still making their 65 liter trekker and the kelty tioga was still available online so I picked both of those packs up and have been using them the last couple of years, and I am so glad that I did! I have a low back and neck injury that would bother me with the internal frame packs I was using, but the Keltys have made it possible to backpack without pain again! I feeI the more upright carry position and better load transfer to the hips the external frame packs offer have really helped me enjoy backpacking again! I also like the ventilation and the organization that the external frame pack allows. Although the pack is fairly heavy by today's standards I can still go lightweight using the Keltys with all my other ultralight gear. I picked up a spare belt, shoulder straps, and mesh panel for my packs from kelty, hopefully they will be able to ship to you soon! I would like to add that Vargo makes ultralight external frame packs this is on my wish list. Vargo vargooutdoors.com/exotitm-ar2-backpack.html Cheers

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Oh man, what a memory. I had Colin's book as well. Learned a lot (including cutting my toothbrush short). Likely still have the book around somewhere. You have gone through a few more packs that I have but I had the Tioga as well. Wish now I had kept it. Only issue for my style of hiking was the height. Now I know I could lower that. Thank your for commenting

[@filmic1]

I bought my CampTrails in the early seventies. It lasted till the early 2000's. Lots of memories.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Right on. They are still a great pack. Thanks for commenting

[@alexanderweaver4838]

I have three external frame backpacks, one vintage, one Norwegian military surplus and one fairly new one by Field and Stream; along with 20+ internal frame backpacks. They are all a part of my outdoor gear collection of gear....weird to collect backpacks but I like to switch out and depends on what activity I'm doing. The external frame backpacks are ideal for my bushcraft adventures. My hatchets or small hand axe fit nicely between the frame and the backside of the pack and secured with either a 550 tie or a short retention strap. If I take a my Trail Boss axe it fits in a sleeve behind one of the side pockets. On either the bottom or top of the pack either a small tent, OneTigris Bungalow, or a bedroll is secured with retention straps. For me the pros far outweigh the cons as obviously I am not an ultralight backpacker. I carry what makes me comfortable and safe at the campsite. At age 73 that's important for me to enjoy being outdoors in the woods. Great subject to cover, Mark.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I am with you on comfort. I am getting close to your age and my body prefers to be pampered more than it used to. Thanks for commenting

[@Steve-hb4my]

You’re right on with ordering the shoulder straps and hip belt from Kelty. I’m sure you’ll have no problem connecting them to your frame. Don’t forget a new mesh back panel also. The one Kelty sells is much wider than the one currently on your frame.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I am just waiting patiently until they ship international again...hopefully soon. Thanks for commenting

[@kevinharding2099]

I sometimes use a pack basket when I have a large load or awkward load. I upgraded the straps and added a waist belt and it works great. I also added a pad to the basket so it rests gently against my back. The secret is to modify equipment for your needs.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I like the idea of adding a basket or maybe a small barrel. First step is to upgrade the straps. Thanks for commenting

[@Stoney_AKA_James]

Good discussion Mark, your opinions regarding the differences are spot on my friend! That pack reminds me of my first (Jansport) pack I bought years ago from REI in Seattle. Take a look at Sportsman's Guide, they sell military surplus and camping gear. Tip: If/when you decide to cut the top of the frame, spray expanding foam to seal the tubing, it works great!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Great suggestion about Sportsman's Guide. Thanks for commenting

[@Woodswalker1965]

Very interesting project Mark. It's a good thing we have a few provinces between us or we might be competing at VV!😂

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

The secret is out Wade. To many people are listening and heading to VV. Finds are getting fewer and fewer😂

[@Woodswalker1965]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft I grabbed a brand new with tags Eddie Bauer 100% wool shirt for $10 the other day. Don't tell anyone😉

[@charlesseelye3528]

I still have my 'Camp Trails' pack from the early 1970's . Only modification I made was to replace the key ring type keepers on the pins holding the bag to frame, with a rod that goes through each pin top to bottom. Makes it much easier and quicker to remove bag from frame as I do when using the frame alone for hauling game out of the hills. Have carried over 80lbs. with that frame. With bag on for long hikes I used to keep weight to between 35 and 40 lbs. and it served me quite well. I think I remember changing the shoulder straps to firmer ones also. Hope to use it this summer for a two night trip in the high country with son and grandson. Keep up the good reviews and discussions Mark. Always interesting.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I have a really old Kelty frame and bag (about 90 or 100 litres) that has the single long wire pine running through the clovis pins. Nice pack but way huge. Thanks for commenting

[@ericagta]

Used to lived in Halifax for 4 years. Loved there! Miss the cape Breton trail, and REAL nice people in there

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Right on. Am I right in saying you are in Toronto now? Thanks for commenting

[@ericagta]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft yep, I just got into hiking deeply this year. You got a lucky finding

[@randal1470]

It’s been interesting to see where packs and frames have gone over the many decades. Into the 70’s with kelty, and other manufacturers after, the aluminum and nylon came on the scene and the frames and bags became integrated. For my part, I’m interested in the period before that, where the frame and suspension was a stand-alone hauling platform and bags or items added as needed. I often trimmed off the extensions on the frame tops as well, hang on brush but also in the way to carry a canoe. Thanks for the mention! I’m hoping to be able to have some packs to look at going into fall. Still learning, and trying to build up some materials, and also get some of the outstanding knives done.

[@blacksheep6821]

Vinland Bushcraft yes, that’s the way I’m looking as frame packs’ job as well. It’s to carry non bagged gear for the most part.

[@randal1470]

Black Sheep yes, like the old packboards...which were heavy. I’m wanting to take a look at taking the best of the older stuff and blending the best of the new with it.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Hey Randal. I have learned a good deal about packs from you. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with

[@randal1470]

Mark Young I’ve been so lucky in my life to have met some super serious gear designers and users, learned so much from them.

[@chaloopy]

What a great vid. I'm currently making 2 of these packs (canoeing and bushcraft). You said everything that needs to be said, nothing you didn't, and I learned something

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Thank you for you kind words. Glad it was helpful!

[@blacksheep6821]

I have a similar backpack that I also found at Goodwill. I stopped using it because I didn’t like the noise of the rings that attach the bags to the frame, the bag doesn’t stand on it’s own (I have trees with sap here in Maine), and it sat too much on my shoulders. I try to pack light, so in my mind I only use frame packs to carry wool blankets, bivouac bags, axe, and ‘old school’ gear. I ended up making one to meet my need out of PVC. Only downside to that one is that it’s a bit heavier than I thought it would be. Good video. Thank you. 👍🏻

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I have seen pics of ones made from PVC. I think if I can find the right suspension I should be able to deal with the other issues. Thanks for commenting

[@phillipbuchan9180]

Hey there. I feel a need to let you know how inspirational this video was for me. Recently I removed the padded waist belt section from a very expensive (internal frame, from ca 1992) pack of mine whose fabric had deteriorated, and attached it to an older external frame pack I have had since ca 1987. It worked out very well, and I used it just a few days ago. Thank you for these videos.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Thanks for sharing!!

[@terryw.milburn8565]

I noticed the sticker tag on your last vid & said to myself, Mark's Going to do a vid on this soon ! Geat Pack @ That Price, I Found the same pack last year @ a yard sale = $ 5:00, had it home for a couple weeks & Found out our 13 yr. old neighbor was in need of a pack, Gifted this to him & He's quite happy with it, Never owned an internal yet ! Thanks Mark ! ATB T God Bless

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

You will have to keep your eyes open for another pack like this. So many things you can do with it. Thanks for commenting Terry

[@ianbruce6515]

Interesting video, as always! I have an external frame pack, very much like that one--and about the same vintage. It doesn't have the bag on it at the moment, as I stripped it off so that I could carry my French Easel, oil paints and supplies plus a wet panel carrier on it for a painting trip to Monhegan Island. I added a couple of hooks made from flat to the easel, to hook over a crossbar--and bungee cord took care of the rest! I hiked all over the island, doing two or three paintings a day. My pack frame has an excellent hip strap. The frame can be used for carrying other odd and bulky objects into a camp that is remote from the roads--cooler, propane canisters, large camp stove, case of wine, chainsaw and fuel jugs. 😊 P.S.--that pack was difficult on that last 100 miles of the Appalachian trail when it got rough-- climbing over and under fallen trees. Like you said, the load distribution is great on a clear trail!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

What I like about these old external frames is the versatility of what and how you attached bags or other things to them. Thanks for commenting

[@hypo345]

Backpacks are like stoves always looking for the perfect one or just another one to add to the collection. Having being a stills photographer I have quite an assortment of bags and packs. I have been looking into external frame packs as I hate the heat and moisture build up of packs close to ones back. The Kelty Yukon looks like a good pack,not too expensive plus can be bought on Amazon and sent to the UK (if anyone has used this pack I would be grateful to hear of their experience with it). Savotta make an external frame pack but it's a 70-litre pack.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Kelty are hard to beat for price or quality. I wish I had kept mine. Thanks for commenting

[@J0MBi]

This is the best thing about external frame packs, they are interchangable and repairable in a way that newer bags just aren't. A lot of that comes back to Dick Kelty's decision not to patient the design he created in the 1950s, so many manufacturers produced copies of Kety packs. External frame packs are due for a revival in Europe and North America - in Scandinavia they are still common and manufactured (from what I can tell), though they tend to be aimed at carrying really heavy loads over really long distances. For anyone new to them, they take a bit of work to customise and you might need to buy 2 or 3 packs before you have all the parts you need to make something you are happy with. But the good thing about them is that they are a genuinely excellent design, easy to repair and extremely durable. My thoughts are that it will be very difficult to interface that CampTrails frame with an ALICE ruck, I have an ALICE and a similar CampTrails frame - it is significantly wider than the section of the ALICE bag designed to hold the frame in place. It might be possible to put something like paracord through and tie it to the frame, if you can figure out how to make a snug fit I'd be interested to see it. My sense is that you would be better served with one of the many bags designed to fit a frame like that. The US ebay has lots of them at really low prices, if the shipping wasn't so extreme to Europe then I'd probably have bought about 50 by now. However as you said ALICE rucks are great for the being lower on your back than most external frames (stopping them catching branches), and the pockets make organising them easy. But the downside is that the lower position makes them awkward when heavily loaded, and they have a tendency to bulge out in annoying ways. They are also significantly heavier than civilian packs, as much as 1.5kg extra, not including the frame and straps.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Well thought out considerations. I may look at the Swedish LK35 or Norwegian Telemark packs. As you say, the best thing about an external frame is that is can be so customizable. Thanks for commenting

[@garycloud9631]

Thanks Mark for showing us your pack and your mods and intended mods.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Glad you like them! Thanks for commenting

[@alexanderweaver4838]

Flying Circle, based in Boerne, TX produced a huge 65 to 70 liter backpack that resembles a large frameless Allis backpack and I found it at my local military surplus store. For me the cons are its size and it's black, making it hard to see inside the pack in the dark; the size because I tend to overpack...I call it the "what if" syndrome. It has two large external side pockets (both with pass through sleeves behind) and three smaller but spacious pockets on the front, two of them with pass through sleeves behind them. The middle pocket holds my good sized IFAK plus some other items for quick access. The main pocket is enormous and whether I go with a tent or full-on hammock outfit, sleeping bag or quilt, cooking gear and several days of food, it all fits, with room to spare if I carry the tent on the bottom or the top of the pack. The waist belt is well padded and I can carry up to 50 pounds comfortably for short hikes. For simple overnighters (just to get away) I use a Mystery Ranch Scree 32 or a Savotta Jakaari S, a 19 liter military Finnish military surplus backpack, depends on what's planned for the outing. For stealth camping I minimize my gear loadout within reason.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Interesting. I will take a look for the Flying Circle pack. Thanks for commenting

[@freddmi5212]

Hi Mark, nice pack! I like externalisation frame backpack as well. I own a swedish LK35 and it is quite good for bushcrafting I think dispite having no externalisation pockets and too much straps lenght flippin around. One other vintage pack I would consider is the "Telemark" norwegian truck. You can get one from Varusteleka and the shipping is very reasonable I believe. Thank you for your input and keep safe Mark!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I had considered the LK35 as I see quite a few mods for it. I will check Varusteleka and see what they have. Thanks for commenting

[@RIZE-tx5sd]

I had done the very same thing. Here is what I would do. Remove the metal buckles and stitching. Replace with ITW quick release buckles. Black HPG Harness.MOLLE medium belt Black RIT Dye.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Great suggestions. Thanks for commenting

[@northwind9505]

My pack would get so hot on my back in Florida. I went to a sling pack and down sized everything along with my hike. A External Frame could be a game changer. Good points about both packs Mark. Good luck with your build! Can't wait to see it.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Makes a huge difference of me in our moderate climate as well. Will likely be working on this for some time. Thanks for commenting

[@brucematys8597]

Another thing we have in common my friend, Value Village and DIY😷👍Cheers buddy.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Right on. They are kind of the essence of bushcraft...sort of. Thanks for commenting

[@steamboatmodel]

I have found quite a few good buys at Value Village, including a number of backpacks. My best find was a Seva 123 stove only missing the pot for $3.99. As far as the Internal vs External I keep switching back and forth. When I used to do a lot of Canoe tripping I used an external frame that I could strap bags and gear to, including a 5hp outboard motor at one time. One of the consideration I often find is how is the backpack going to be transported to where you are going to hike and in what type of vehicle. If it is going to be in a vehicle that has lots of room a external is fine, but if you are having to cream it in along with other peoples gear I generally use an internal frame one.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Nice VV find. Yes, an external frame can be turned into a real work horse. Thanks for commenting

[@larryfinch1529]

I got my vintage Camp Trails Cruiser for 5.99 at goodwill in Georgia USA in Mint condition except for one shoulder strap...the filling is starting to decompose. yours is the only other one I have ever seen !

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

It is an excellent pack frame. I have an update video where I added another pack and suspension if you are interested. Thanks for commenting

[@EconoChallenge]

My external frame pack was bright orange. I think you could see me coming from space. As I recall, it was very uncomfortable, especially with a heavy load. You do make a really good point about ventilation. The internal frame pack I use now has that problem and my back will get drenched with sweat.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I hear you Jeep. Mine was bright royal blue. Just a web belt at the waist. There was no ultralight gear in it either. Thanks for commenting

[@turtlewolfpack6061]

Bushcraft backpack? Norwegian Telemark, Swedish LK35, the Swedish canvas airforce backpack or maybe a Canadian C2/82 hybrid. I own and love them all but for bushcraft maybe my old Canadian aluminium packboard complete with leather tumpline because you can pack whatever you want with it! Also, altho the Molle 2 1603 frame sucks as a backpack frame (the 1606 is much better) it can be used as a very effective packboard! That said, I do love my West German flecktarn ruck. With the issue folding sleeping pad used as the frame sheet it really isn't a bad hybrid internal/frameless ruck. I can't decide but I do know that I love the C2 frame!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I have been looking at the C2/82 hybrid or even a frame similar to my aluminum one with the 82. Fun just trying things out. Thanks for commenting

[@turtlewolfpack6061]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft a C2 frame is pretty hard to come by these days, even the US lightweight rucksack frame (which is identical) is even less available. I was lucky enough that I have a welded repro of the C2 that Beaver Army Surplus once sold and an original riveted C2 frame that has been through hell and back but is still 100% solid. Most 82 pattern main bags are pretty badly worn as well, again I was lucky many years ago to score a really nice one for pennies. The 82 is also slightly wider than an Alice pack so doesn't sit well on the Alice frame. Sadly, unless one manages to find the perfect parts at the perfect time these days the C2/82 is just not a practical endeavor although it is one of my all time favorite rucks!

[@805gregg]

To fix your backpack, take it back to value village, and buy a Vargo 50 ti, an external titanium frame backpack that compares in weight with many internal frame packs but carries the load much better

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

That would be an amazing find at a thrift store. I have an update video coming soon. Thanks for commenting

[@barbroevanderlindquist4128]

That pack look very similar to my old Haglofs Skarja from the end of the 1970 ties with extension frame and extra pack poches. There is a nice stand in shelf style, very good for sleeping bag. Waist belt as ascessoir. Still a good pack! Nice for female use still. Ther are big ones from Haglofs and The fjall fox too but even for big men i think they are big for civil use, if military guys is carrying arround it is one thing but as hobby oute in the woods it seems as a self torment to carry somthing that pack over 50 l! Have you looked at the Norwegian at the old Telemarks backpacks the classic one. Heavy but the leather straps and skee/ax compartment is worth a bit! Barbro Sweden

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Lot of good info. I will take a look for the Telemark packs. Thanks for commenting

[@barbroevanderlindquist4128]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft On amazon Tatonka lastenkraxe mutch money but as multiuse frame perhaps worth it....? Thank you for answer! Barbro Sweden

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

@@barbroevanderlindquist4128 I will take a look. thanks again

[@rrcaniglia]

I have owned an external frame pack and liked it very much until I began to hike in dense vegetation, often cross-country where snagging branches and uneven footing were king and queen. I went to an internal frame, which reduced snagging and which fit closer to my body, improving balance on uneven footing. Downside is, your back isn’t nearly as well ventilated. I didn’t hear you mention that if your external is riding too high you can reattach the shoulder strap top grommet above the top cross bar. Worked fine for me when I adjusted the mesh back band.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Very much my experience as well. This pack does have some adjustment for shoulder strap height that I am playing with. Thanks for commenting

[@Revenant1431]

Hi Mark. Our type of weather will be here in a couple of months lol. Low 20's is all I can tolerate now.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I went out the other day and it ran up to 31c plus humidity. Was not sure I would make it back. Could not drink enough water to stay ahead of the sweat. Too hot for this old man. Thanks for commenting

[@JoshArchers]

Regarding straps,belt and military packs: Varustaleka in Finland do the Sarma TST RP80 external frame pack. You can buy just the straps and belt. Very pricey but can give an idea of what is possible. For military style packs in general there are loads of options in that Sarma range. I pair Sarma general purpose pouches with the Jaakari series of packs from Savotta. Equally - I have a Swedish LK35 extranal frame pack. That's a military pack and I sewed molle to it and can put those Sarma pouches on it too. Lots of options for military external frame packs over in Europe. Not sure if there's a way to email you more info/photos as what you're looking at has been a bit of a project of mine for a while!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I have looked at the Sarms suspension on Varuesteleka. As you say, expensive. Sound like you LK35 is working out well. I need to look at that pack and at the Telemark pack. Thanks for commenting

[@teeeff5179]

Hello Mark, I've been messing with external frame packs for very much the same reasons. Like you I'm going the Franken-pack route. My current rig is an LK35 frame with the shoulder straps and waist belt from a US MOLLE 2 rucksack + a British 45L Infantry Pack as the bag (chosen because I like the size and the MOLLE webbing for a few external pockets for organizational reasons). All in all the best set-up so far after 6 months of fairly extensive experimentation. I've found it's taken A LOT of trial and error but I think the end result has been worth it. I wish you the best with yours.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Sounds like you have a great setup. It is getting harder to find an LK35 now. I am looking at the Norwegian Telmark pack. I will take a look at the UK pack and the US MOLLE 2 suspension. Thanks for commenting

[@teeeff5179]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft the Telemark is a decent pack but IMO it's not the best choice for our Franken-pack purposes. The LK35 frame is basically a grid with MANY attachment points and that's what makes it so versatile. The Telemark frame is basically just a bent piece of tubing, minimalist and specifically designed to suit the Telemark style bag. I can't image the Telemark frame was ever intended to be used for a variety of load-outs as the LK35 frame (and others like it) obviously were. In all honesty I found my Telemark to be a bit underwhelming.

[@teeeff5179]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft I should add that the MOLLE 2 suspension is brilliant! By far the best and most adaptable suspension system I have seen to date. The MOLLE 2 frame is pretty decent too and although it's a polymer-based material (not beautiful but very functional) it too has oodles of attachment points. In other words the MOLLE 2 rig is Franken-pack ready. The MOLLE 2 bag is basically just a BIG sack with PALS webbing on it, not my favourite bag but it is big and tough.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

@@teeeff5179 actually very helpful as I have not seen either in person. I am looking for a new vendor as Varuestelka is not shipping to Canada right now

[@teeeff5179]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft FWIW I might be able to help. I love Varusteleka too but I have been able to source most (certainly not all) surplus items elsewhere, in my case from UK suppliers. If there is something specific you're looking for I'd be happy to help if I can. No pressure at all, just an offer if it suits your needs.

[@EatCarbs]

That's a pretty nice pack for $9 .. score! Too bad about the sleeping bag.. but still a great deal for the pack alone. I have both internal and external frame packs and I like them. Thanks for the video

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

True. right pack for the right application. Thanks for commenting

[@oxxnarrdflame8865]

With an external you can remove the pack and carry wood or game. I would use an internal for climbing and skiing where I need better center of gravity control. For backpacking I used the external for better ventilation also with its external pockets and such I can lean it against a tree and it was easier to retrieve and pack gear rather than rooting around in an internal pack.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Right on. Well thought out. Thanks for commenting

[@mike_outdoors4918]

Hi Mark, I know exactly what you mean about back sweat, it's really uncomfortable. I did look into getting an external frame pack, but just couldn't find anything suitable over here in the UK. Thanks for sharing, take care 👍 ☺️

[@hypo345]

Mike I'm looking at the Kelty Yukon 48. It can be sent to UK via Amazon.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

There may be some older European designs still hanging around. Thanks for commenting

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Kelty does not appear to be shipping outside the US right now..hopefully soon

[@hypo345]

Another contender could be the Swedish army LK 35.

[@jimf1964]

😂😂😂. I saw the thumbnail and said "oh geeze, he still hasn't taken that price tag off. Has he no shame?!" I so often regret getting rid of my old frame pack, and for no other reason than I was young, and frame packs became old fashioned and not good enough anymore. The frame was awesome too. It was bigger than yours, and had a folding "shelf" at the bottom. It would have been very useful for large, or oddly shaped loads like hauling a full size stove for a group, or as a game carrier, etc... One reason I didn't want it anymore was also the relatively poor suspension systems they tended to have. Had there been (or had I known of) places to upgrade back then, I would probably have kept it. So so stupid, but hind sight is always 20/20, right? I would go for an Alice pack or if you're interested there's that Finnish surplus store Varestuluka or something like that, that carries lots of old surplus bags. Great store. I have German infantry boots circa 2005 that are really sweet. Leather inside and out. German suspenders and a Royal Navy rain coat...... Do you shop at the Halifax value village? After raising kids, the wife has become a loyal fan, so we had to stop in there when we visited Halifax. Its a pretty good one. In Montreal we tend to have many, but maybe not many so big.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I hear you Jim. My first pack at age 12 was an external and served well even with the pad straps, etc. Seems what is old is new again. Thanks for commenting

[@canadafree2087]

I've seen a few like that at VV but clearly that one is better: more curved frame than avg., larger size pockets and more volume. Very nice find! These tend to be quite light compared to internal frames. If one wants to get into lightweight hiking but can't afford $300-$400 for those American made ultralight packs, try this route. Could we have a 1 year update on this pack project?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I agree, external frame packs have so many advantages. Yes, I recently picked up an Alice style pack from Austria very cheap and hope to attach that to the frame. Finding good suspension cheap has been a bit harder. Thanks for commenting

[@redoak3809]

External Packs are awesome when you are staying on trail and/or if you have back issues, etc. The Swedish LK35 is an awesome pack. I would like to make mine even better by finding an aluminum frame to attach the bag to. There is nothing like a good external frame pack with a waist belt for comfort and support when carrying a heavy pack. Find someone that has an LK35 and see if it will work on that frame. If it does, then look for one for yourself.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I am looking at the LK35 and Telemark bags as possibles. Thanks for commenting

[@redoak3809]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft Mike at MCQ Bushcraft uses a Killimanjaro frame with his modified pack. Others have used local finds that work with the bag. I wish NEW updated LK35s were produced with lighter aluminum frames, hip belts, detachable, passthrough side pockets able to hold nalgene water bottles, sternum straps, velcro patch ready... If I am staying on a trail, I love the external packs. The Fjallraven Kaipack, though internal, feels a little like an LK35 to me.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

@@redoak3809 Yes, I have seen Mike's pack and have been motivated by it. May end up having someone make a bag to fit the frame. It may cost me more but I should get the best of all worlds that way

[@redoak3809]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft Please share when you get this accomplished. Also consider making two and sending one to me :)

[@friarrodneyburnap4336]

In my opinion you can not compare an external frame backpack with a internal frame Backpack...they are two different carrying methods. . .but you can compare two different brands of external frame backpacks or a different brand of internal frame Backpacks. . .before Mr. Kelty made the first External frame Backpacks in his garage back in the 1950s . . .very little Backpacking was being done, then Colin Fletcher came along, and he was the first real thru hiker...before it was called thru hiking. . .then somebody back in the 1970s thought it was a great I idea to put the frame inside a External Frame Pack bag. Now people are spending 3 and 4 times what a External frame Backpack cost, these Cuban fiber rucksacks, are warrantied for one year or one thru hike....my Kelty's Tioga and Trekker external Backpacks are warrantied for life . . .I carry my external frame backpack with the lightest gear... external frame backpacks are underrated by many folks that won't even try one... Modern backpacking gear is Ultralight, but much of it is designed not to last so you have to keep replacing it...

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Thanks for commenting

[@julianparks8485]

I have a Kelty Trekker 65 External back pack. I prefer it over internal frame packs for packing heavier odd loads. I am still looking for a good medium size Rucksack for the city and short trips out of town. I live in NYC. The ones I have found are too small and poorly made.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

It seems the search for the perfect pack never ends. I like the external frames for the reason you mention. For small, light loads I have an older North Face Recon that works for me. I have the Helikon-Tex Matilda for medium loads, mostly in winter (reviewed). Now I am looking for a lightweight, breathable pack for hot weather. Thanks for commenting

[@julianparks8485]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft You're welcome. Good luck on finding that pack!

[@johnruckman2320]

I'm 6'1". I have a Med&Lg. ALICE. The med. one seems to fit alright on my hips but the Lg. one I can't seem to get it to sit on my hips especially with a heavy Cabela's coat and it pulls on my shoulders. I use them for metal detecting and gold panning. I have degenerative disk disease in my lower neck and the shoulder strain puts tension on the neck & causes a nerve pain in my upper back in the right notch of the vertebrae that curve out the farthest. Really annoying. Also a couple boy scout style dump packs which I haven't tried yet. I do have a narrow tall Teton pack that needs a straight zipper on the flap replaced. It's an open box return I got cheap but I don't know where to take it to replace the zipper. To me the ALICE straps and belt just aren't padded enough, wide enough, or long enough to work well. They tend to dig in on the sides and press in on what there is to my shoulders. Not much meat there. After your comment on the sweat value of internal frames I'll pass on that idea. So I'm thinking of modifications on the other packs. Just don't know how to go about it. I picked up some chest strap parts from the Army Navy store but they are too loose even drawn up all the way. Haven't found any information on what I can do for modifications in my situation. I also like to camp, fish, and want to try bushcrafting. But I'm having trouble getting the various blades sharp properly. The Woodsman fixed blade, pocket knives, Old Hickory Butcher knives, grass machetes, The Guardian machete (factory unfinished), Fro, large & small carving set, and a spoon carving set. With all those sharpening angles I don't know what sharpening kit to get that doesn't cost too much to hold those angles right. Hands aren't that steady.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Finding the best pack can be a challenge. Best suggestion is to try on as many as you can. Thanks for commenting

[@danielkutcher5704]

Mark, here's an interesting site: seekoutside.com/lightweight-backpacks/ And another: www.kuiu.com/shop/collections/pro-packs/pro-suspension/62022.html?dwvar_62022_color=Valo&cgid=collections-pro You can also raise the top of the shoulder straps which would 1) Put more weight on your hips, and, 2) Lower the height of the frame above your shoulders and head. Remove the clevis pins (what we called them in the 1970s), and rearrange the plastic spacers so there are more under the shoulder strap grommet and fewer on top. I worked for REI in the 1980s, and sized quite a few packs, internal and external. I like them both, for different reasons, but carry a frameless pack with a simple webbing waist belt, because I rarely carry much more than 22 lbs. or so on Appalachian Trail section hikes. Hope this helps you and others.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Your experience is greatly appreciated. I can never seem to get my pack that light. I carry tool heavy. I will check out the links provided. Thanks for commenting

[@mrwes100]

The Hiddenwoodsman Deep Woods Ruck.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Yes, a good choice. Having said that, if I am going to buy a custom I would likely want one fitted to the frame. Thanks for commenting

[@douggibson9084]

Great information 👍 Mark

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for commenting

[@nobodyinparticular709]

Check out the South African army pattern 83 field pack with its optional/removable "H" frame. Mil spec tough, tested in battle, cheap (around 50usd) 70lt capacity.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I just checked them out. They look great. Thanks for sharing

[@nobodyinparticular709]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft if you would like, send me your email or whatsapp and I can make a side by side comparison video, medium alice vs pattern 83. [e-mail]

[@sirdee9607]

Nice Video, my friend

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Thank you very much

[@insunreliable7875]

I need new straps for mine and I can't find anything, even here in the U.S. Kelty looks like they are out of stock of the hip belt and they don't even list the shoulder straps.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I have an update video using a different pack and straps from yet another pack. I would still like to find a better suspension system like the Kelty. Thanks for commenting

[@user-xf2qt5il7n]

Years ago I got ticks attached to me on my back and waist, I don't know how common this is, would external frames reduce the probability of this?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I can't see how it would help. Thanks for commenting

[@lixibao]

Curious to know the weight of your pack. Thanks for sharing. Cheers!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Actually, I have not weighed it. Reason being is my pack weight varies every trip as I am often testing new products out. Plus, I carry camera gear as well. I am also not a through hiker so my hikes are often less than 10 or 15 kilometers. I can carry more weight on shorter hikes. Thanks for commenting

[@maxman1244]

subbed the moment you said "halifax" fellow Canadian eh

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Hello neighbour. What part of Cannuck land do you hale from?

[@maxman1244]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft the big flat rectangle! Saskatchewan Man myself

[@cliveburt]

Have you thought about trying to attach you Helicon Tex Matilda to your Franken Frame? Maybe use its shoulder straps around two of the horizontal bars, side compression straps (x4) around the verticals and completely remove the Matilda's waist belt and internal frame to save weight?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Yes, I have considered adding it to this frame in just the manor you have suggested. I may yet. I also just acquired an Alice pack frame I may attach it to. Thanks for commenting

[@cliveburt]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft I thought you would have. I was expecting you to come back with all the things I hadn't thought of as to why it wouldn't work. Or that the Matilda doesn't have enough capacity compared to your Austrian Alice. I've never seen either one in person. How do they compare capacity wise?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

@@cliveburt Actually, it should work just fine. It would be better if I attached it in a more permanent way but I don't want to cut the straps off the Matilda. The Matilda is about 50 liters and I estimate the Austrian pack at about 40 liters. It was intended to have an pouch added to the front to add capacity.

[@cliveburt]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft Oh! I thought it would have been the other way round based on the specs that I found on the internet. Helikon's site says 35L for the Matilda (No mention if that includes the pockets) and the "Austrian KAZ-75 Rucksack" is listed as 45L (No mention if that includes the pockets) on most sites. However, I'll trust your MK I calibrated eyeball seeing as you own both of them. Hero's has the Austrian for $70 in new/unissued condition. Do you think I'd be better off putting that money towards the Matilda?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

@@cliveburt So, I originally thought the Matilda was 35L but it is much bigger. I do like the Austrian pack but I could not see using it without a frame to attach it to. Either would serve you well. The Matilda is ready to go and the Austrian needs a frame

[@pacediver2594]

Look at a Canadian rucksack straps off the 82 pattern that may work, the bag itself may not work for you, good advice on the packs,I have both styles and it really comes down what I plan on doing that day on my choice of pack

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Good suggestion. I will take a look and see if I can find a set. Thanks for commenting

[@nomadmarauder-dw9re]

S.O.F. magazine had an article on using Alice packs on civvie frames. Looking at this frame, it seems that a MOLLE 2 suspension would work here. Anybody?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Sorry, I can't comment. I have an ALICE frame but no pack. Thanks for commenting

[@nomadmarauder-dw9re]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft There's an old Kelty frame someplace around the compound, and I've got Alice middie and a MLE large. Let you know.

[@viewsandreviews180]

I liked your perspective on this. As a point of reference, I still have the external frame pack I used when I first backpacked (the orange color is a drawback for me but it’s very light, roomy and durable), an ALICE pack (with frame) and a couple of internal frame packs. I agree all packs have pluses and minuses, thus my having more than one. That said I’ve found that the compression straps I’ve added to packs work better on external framed packs than on internal frame packs. When cinched they increase airflow over my back as well as stabilizing the load better. Have you found the same?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Yes, the straps on this bag are horizontal across the back. They do a good job of snugging everything up close to the frame making it easier to carry. Thanks for commenting

[@mattparker9986]

I know someone who took the bag off and attached dry bags to the frame instead of a big bag

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Yes, that would work. Also a barrel strapped to the pack maybe. Thanks for commenting

[@waccamawscout5566]

How does the Matilda pack work in hot weather because looking between that pack and external frame pack for thicker woods travel camping

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I do really like the Matilda but like a lot of other packs that sit close to my back, it does get hot and I get wet during the summer. It can also be an issue during winter creating a risk of a chill in the lower back. If my load it not heavy I let the shoulder straps loose a little to allow the bag to hang backwards a bit. Helps a little.. My ideal pack would be similar to the Matilda but with an external frame. Maybe like a lightweight Alice pack. Thanks for commenting

[@friarrodneyburnap4336]

I love External Frame Backpacks...

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

So do I. Thanks for commenting

[@rodneyshiles1270]

Instead of cutting off the frame. Move ur shoulder straps to the top bar. Will an Alice pack. Straps and lumbar belt work?

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Moving the straps to the top would drop the waist belt below my hips. Not sure about the Alice pack. They are not that easy to come by around here. Will look at it though. Thanks for commenting

[@rodneyshiles1270]

Mark Young wasn’t sure if you could move belt up also . I wasn’t sure how it was attached

[@guskoerner75]

Great work! Ever get your straps from Kelty? I’m willing to ship them to you. Gus in Florida. My sis lives in Alberta, and has similar problems.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Sorry for the delay in responding. I found another old pack with a good set of straps so I am good for now. I do appreciate the offer

[@JC-sj2pd]

What’s that hat you’re wearing? Great short brimmed boonie!

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

This is my Tilley Hemp T5. I have a video on my Tilley hats if interested. Thanks for commenting

[@robertgullickson8758]

It appears to me that you could move the shoulder strap attachments up to be able to lower the frame's ride. Are they permanently attached at the top? Personally I like external frame packs. I have used these since the 70's for a variety of carries. I like the option of hanging something on the outside of the pack. And, as you pointed out, they are cooler to wear most any time of year. And I just really like the nostalgia of external frame packs. As for bushcraft use, I guess the frame will always be a problem unless you lower it or cut it off as you suggested. Is that really what I might do..? Probably not. But then I don't usually try to get through the brambles and bushes with my pack on. Thanks for the video.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

There is some room for dropping the shoulder straps so I may give it a try. I would be hesitant to cut the frame if I had paid more then $8.00 for it. Thanks for commenting

[@stephendehart9777]

Try moving the suspension up as well.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Yes, this frame does allow for that. Something I can play with. Thanks for commenting

[@robparsell5866]

Have you (or any one else) seen Pack Rabbit Products? A bit more than 8.99. Look like they would be good though.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I will check them out. Thanks for commenting

[@robparsell5866]

Thank you for your videos Mark. I always learn something new by watching them.

[@friarrodneyburnap4336]

You don't need to cut anything from your pack frame, what you need is a rain cover with a drawstring to put around your pack...This will keep the frame and the pack bag from getting hung up on any of your branches...

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Great suggestion. Thanks for commenting

[@mickeyjohnson1137]

If you still monitor comments, I wonder if you can help me. I am pretty sure I have that exact same backpack or one very close. My Camp Trails is in almost top condition. I bought it used. I can't find any flaws except some discoloration in a couple small areas. There is a rod threaded through a woven area on the interior of the bag. The rod is bent in a 90° angle at both ends with a loop at both ends of the rod. I have no clue about the purpose of this rod. Do you know its purpose? I have been unsuccessful in finding any information about this rod. Thank you for your information-packed video, and I hope you can help me with my question.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Yes, the rod is intended to sit in two small pockets on each side of the bag at the frame. It will help hold the bag open and square. It was thought to make it easier to pack. Hope this helps. Thanks for commenting

[@mickeyjohnson1137]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft Thank you for commenting and so quickly! I am assuming the rod goes in pockets on the outside of the bag somehow. Even though the rod slides through an area on the interior of the bag, the rod is supposed to be twisted so that it is turned to function on the exterior? Is that right? Or do the ends just hang down on the interior of the bag, because I can see nowhere inside to attach the ends of the rod. Forgive my confusion. There are some small "clips" on the exterior of the bag that I thought might attach to the rod, but the clips don't seem to fit the diameter of the rod, not without significant force. Or, as I understand you, the rod attaches to the frame itself?

[@mickeyjohnson1137]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft I think I figured it out! The rod stays inside the pack, but the ends of the rod go through these holes that look like button holes on a shirt, and then attach to the pack frame. Hope I got it right. Thanks again.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

@@mickeyjohnson1137 I did not keep mine as the bag was in bad shape so I can not be positive about this, but it is my recollection that the rod runs through the channel at the top of the bag and then stays inside the bag where it may or may not pass through holes alongside the uprights of the frame. I say it that way because I am not sure if I am confusing it with another old bag I had with a similar setup I do know the rod stayed inside the bag but cannot be sure where or how it connects at the frame I ended up replacing the bag with an Austrian "Alice" pack I got from Varusteleka (I have a video on it if interested) Hope this helps some

[@mickeyjohnson1137]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft Thanks so much for your response. I'm pretty sure I have it right now, thanks to your help. If you could send me a link, I will check out your other video on the bag. Thanks again!

[@critic2029]

Seems to me an ALICE pack would need less modification

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

An ALICE pack is certainly an option. Thanks for commenting

[@critic2029]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft thanks for your video. I came upon it because I was getting back into hiking realized that in the 20 years I’d been away external frame packs nearly disappeared… so I’ve been doing a lot of research. I was able to get a Tioga 5500, but doing a custom ALICE was also something I was considering.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

I have another video adding an Austrian ALICE pack to this frame. It remains my go-to pack @@critic2029

[@jasonbannan4024]

Lol... If a moose or elk with their huge racks, can disappear through the bush in the blink of an eye, I find it funny that the 4" extensions on that frame hinder you. Enjoy.

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Thanks for commenting

[@mrmeme-jq6qr]

Your being too picky about your needs because these backpacks are always on sale for you to find what your looking for plus try new things

[@MarkYoungBushcraft]

Thanks for commenting

[@mrmeme-jq6qr]

@@MarkYoungBushcraft I got a frankenpack also and its awesome