Extreme pitch raise on 100 yr old upright piano

180 cent pitch raise on 100 yr old Schiller upright piano. After two pitch raises, the piano was on A-440 pitch with only 3 broken treble strings. Total time: under 1 hour.

[@alterman156channel]

Many old pianos were well built in those days. The Schiller piano at the time of manufacture was a quality piano. Also the music wire was made to a very high standard at the time the piano was manufactured.

[@jonarmstrong6214]

alterman156 piano makers had a LOT of competition 100 years ago, you had to build a high quality instrument to compete and it had to be durable enough to be delivered by horse and buggy

[@alterman156channel]

Many of these old upright pianos were well built to withstand the climate extremes through much of North America. Also many were used in schools where they often got harsh treatment. Considering the quality of many of the consumer grade pianos coming from China. It might be wiser to take an old upright piano that isn't too far gone and restore it. Though many pianos made in China are O.K. I don't think that they're going to last as long as an old, higher quality American made upright piano.

[@davidperry4013]

@@alterman156channel there are 7500 dollar American made uprights but are still not as good as an older piano. I’ll gladly adopt a used piano even.

[@pallechristensen2441]

Well done, Jim. You're the Guy. Love from Denmark /Palle

[@PorterTheFanCollector]

The ends of the hammers are flat. Saw it once on a ‘33 Hobart M Cable in a museum. Long gone now

[@Xi2024Alt]

0:12 major 3rds sound so heavenly in the key of a flat lol

[@AlfaAxel]

You are good! Fast work, nice video. I once had a Schiller and it was a lovely piano, with a true shift "una corde" pedal, and light touch. However the pin block was broken and I did not know how to line it with metal tubes. I simply got some bigger pins and had it play for some more years, then I bought a new piano with a terrible action (Alexaner Hermann). It keeps pitch, though (I have tuned it for 38 years now.)

[@elza769]

A simple serial number search shows that, yes, this piano (as of August 9 2019) is 103 years old.

[@CJ-sx7lt]

I been trying to find my serial number Schiller upright grand- 67182 can you help?

[@manfromearth]

I enjoyed that!

[@titob.yotokojr.9337]

wow, didn't even know old pianos can still be tuned up back to standard A-440 pitch. we had an old heirloom piano , M.F. Rachal, which we finally sold because the piano tuner we hired said it couldn't be brought back to standard pitch anymore.

[@RiojaRoj]

Huh...... I've got a 1922 model and was told the same.

[@joshbonner9409]

They can! If the piano has a full iron frame! It’s the “steel frame pianos” that can’t be tuned to A440. If they’re steel framed ‘they have to be tuned A435 or lower if it can’t hold’. I’m a piano tuner 🙂

[@j.vonhogen9650]

@@joshbonner9409 - I just watched a demonstration of an extreme pitch raise of a minor third on a 135+ yr old upright piano with a 3/4 frame. My piano is just as old and has to be raised at least a minor third as well. What would you do with such an old piano with a 3/4 frame? In that video, they grease up the strings at certain points where strings of that age tend to break. The pitch raise turned out to be successful, by the way.

[@dibaldgyfm9933]

That depends on how tight the pins are and how well the strings are made, they could break and the pins could unscrew. Compare to tune a guitar.

[@j.vonhogen9650]

@@dibaldgyfm9933 - Thanks! The pins are very tight, but I don't know how to evaluate the condition and quality of the strings. They might even be as old as the piano itself!

[@chriswalden6519]

I find this really interesting, I'm currently learning how to tune pianos, did you have to put an allowance in due to moving the strings so far or did you tune it to pitch and then go through it again?

[@paulyoung9836]

I reccomend tuning a little above the pitch then dropping down . That allows for the string to stretch a little and still sound decent.

[@JAISSTEUER]

It seems like at the beginning he was pulling it flat of pitch but then later at the video starting at like 1:46 or something it seems like it’s being pulled about 20 cents sharp while still doing the first pitch raise.

[@raymondfosters-sargent7470]

The description says it was done with "ONLY" 3 broken strings I hope no injuries were suffered. I guess the snapping was due not just to the age and condition of such strings and perhaps a bit of friction on the V bar but also I wonder whether pianos of that era were even intended to be at 440.

[@pavelbenjacob]

Not only were pianos of that era extremely well built and more than capable of holding the extra tension, but piano wire is sized so that it can be stretched a certain percentage beyond the pitch it's sized for. You'd never install a string that would break if pulled to 101% of its capacity! The three that did break no doubt broke at a bridge or hinge pin where corrosion simply did not allow them to move. As to injuries, it's not like a guitar string breaking where the wire flies willy nilly wherever! The string is well contained and harmless - otherwise, you'd see piano tuners wearing safety glasses, but none do....

[@DARANGULAFILM]

@@pavelbenjacob A family friend and lifetime piano tuner and rebuilder experienced a string break which came up through his thumb, through the bone and the nail.

[@pavelbenjacob]

@@DARANGULAFILM I was mainly replying about whether pianos "of that era were even intended to be at 440." Obviously, my generalization of stating breaking wires are "harmless" isn't always true! But again, during a pitch raise--especially with uprights--wires ARE rather well restrained by the confines of the action, etc. Your family friend, as a rebuilder, would have been exposed to much more dangerous situations. For instance, when removing all the strings from a grand piano to do a restringing job or total rebuild, there is a specific method involved where the technician has to carefully reduce the tension of the strings in stages because of the huge amount of tension the harp is under. This is so the harp doesn't crack, but also because the strings are "doubled" in the treble section. One piece of wire goes from a tuning pin, down to a bridge pin, and then back to a tuning pin. If you were to take ALL the tension off one pin/string, the part of the wire bent around the bridge pin and coming back to the adjacent tuning pin could/probably would slip, or break, and could do what happened to your friend. (I'm not suggesting that's exactly what happened, or that it was his fault. Just that in the rebuilding scenario, many other factors are in play....)

[@DARANGULAFILM]

@@pavelbenjacob Fully understood. On the other hand, I diced with Darwin when I was fixing an old upright grand, "Sostenuto" brand which no one will know of. It had been pushed off a stage in an old dance hall by vandals. The strings had experienced a few beer spills and there was a dance list written in chalk on the lower panel which was obviously taken out during dance nights and used for a blackboard. I repaired it but it is a sow's ear, fluid and impact damaged but the strings were mostly in tune except the highest one and a half octaves. I pulled up the upper octaves and just after I went to bed there was the sound of a rifle shot and a big rumble from the loungeroom. There was a string had broken as the night cooled down. The Sostenuto brand pianos were made in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia during that city's goldmining heyday. They were very heavy. The design brief for these pianos was that they had to be capable of being transported cross-country on a camel wagon and still be in tune when delivered to a remote place and first played. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIC8lWx3q7mEf9E The piano man was a lifetime tradesman in this craft. So was his father. He told me that the upright piano here had about thirty tons of tension on the frame. - His son was a tuner as well - of motor cars. I must be a glutton for punishment because I have been patching up a big old Cable & Sons upright which had at some time been a pianola but the works had been gutted out. This was apparently a common practice when old pianolas were traded in and resold as conventional upright pianos with the upper and lower sliding hatches screwed shut. It was also broken up badly after being a roadside toss-out. I have been fixing it for a community outfit which wants it to roll it out into the mall for street performances. The action was sticking but came good when the keyboard pins were cleaned of rust and polished with dry soap pad steel wool. Fortunately the bushing felts had not been torn up. Before being stored it had been in reasonable condition and was tuned correctly.

[@swansong1851]

They were intended for just about that pitch. Standard pitch was only set and agreed upon internationally in 1943, and I'm sure you know that. German pianos were tuned to Continental pitch which was A439. American pitch was A435, before the year 1943. British standard pitch was A456 which is equivalent to A# now.

[@X-Management-Center]

Indeed, it goes like lightning in the sky ;-) you can also see that Jim McGehee had to tune the piano earlier, so my professional experience tells me.

[@EarlyManStanding]

Curious about the over-pull. Seems the over-pull would have to be way high for just two pitch raises. Is it unusual not to break strings on an 100 year old piano needing a pitch raise? Thanks for posting this video.

[@karljamison3327]

Depends. I bet not so unusual to break treble strings on these old pianos during pitch raises due to excessive rust. But by my experience spinets have the most string breakage. I’ve mainly had Baldwin and kimball strings break brand wise. Just have to be careful pulling pitch on these old pianos

[@MetaView7]

Wow

[@thijs199]

Hi Jim, what did you use as a reference?

[@SuperScallopKing]

I’m a tuner with a situation and a question. What would you all do with a piano 400 cents flat? I’ve got a customer with a piano that was 400 cents flat. It’s up to 100 cents flat after 2 pitch raises. I’m heading back next month to finish the job in another 2 passes.

[@JAISSTEUER]

Tuning a piano that is over a minor 3rd flat would be very risky to do cause strings could break, I’ve never heard of a piano that flat before but in 2 pitch raises to 100 cents flat seems surprising, it probably would need 2 more to get it back up to pitch but I’m surprised that the piano got that flat, I’m guessing it’s a newer piano.

[@austinweiss1981]

@@JAISSTEUER it was an old one. I’ve never had too many issues with strings breaking when pianos are 200c flat so I figured I’d give this a go. Didn’t have any broken strings after raising it to 100c flat. Never went back to finish the job though. She probably didn’t like the idea of having to pay for more tuning :/

[@ghsgtnayhmd4792]

How did the tuning hold up?

[@mrrcrogersjr]

How did the pitch raise hold over time?

[@barricade7048]

Its how strong the pins are and it doesn't raise it lowers

[@eroica2392]

@@barricade7048 Don't be so critical

[@karljamison3327]

It can fluctuate with humidity and the torque of the pins. The higher the RH the higher the pitch tends to be due to the swelling and shrinking of the wooden block beneath the brass harp.

[@slodziak222222]

there are 3 strings for each note. how do you know which one to spin

[@mellowords]

Yeah I'm no tuner, but I tune a few notes at my piano when needed. I always have to use my finger or a mute wedge to figure out which of the 3 strings is out. How does he know?

[@orxaneliyev3428]

Super.Tuningg.

[@JAISSTEUER]

1:57 the string be like: oh my gosh that is a heavy pull please stop

[@johnnykwan9643]

It can not be tuned and pitch raising, no way until you lower down a little bit!!

[@caitlanedwards9910]

Aa