F-35: Doomed to be Grounded.

The F-35 is doomed to low readiness, if this doesn't change...
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[@davidr3857]

Wow, four F35s flying at the same time. Must be a miracle.

[@jackw467]

Maybe in Your country

[@grumpyfinn]

as an ex trucker i can say there is nothing i hate more than J.I.T. logistics

[@TheStephaneAdam]

Manufacturing here. Same. EVERYBODY who actually has to work with J.I.T. hates it with a passion. That thing is a pencil pusher's deam and creation.

[@bodan1196]

@@TheStephaneAdam And just as a pencil pusher's dream, it is easy for the dreamers to push it as dogma, because "it is true for them". Welcome new atheists.

[@longshot7601]

Same. Once sales set their unrealistic delivery promises everything was just a huge CF downstream.

[@zonacrs]

@@TheStephaneAdam If I had a nickel for every time I've sat in a meeting with these tools, I'd be a rich man. The concept of 1 part being missing and long lead means "no more build stuff" is lost on these @ss clowns.

[@armamentarmedarm1699]

@@TheStephaneAdam WHERE THE HELL ARE MY PENCILS?! I NEED THEM NOW DAMMIT!

[@evitoonbundit2453]

So the F35 logistics is not designed to fight a war but to serve profit. If I remember well the DoD failed to include the transfer of intellectual property rights into the procurement contract thus guaranteeing the dependency on Lockeed-Martin into perpetuity.

[@nolga3569]

it fights the tax payer

[@johnshackford]

That's a Lockheed thing. They do this crap with the U-2 as well as a result we were always waiting on simple replacement parts from Lockheed when our back shops could produce the same part for a fraction of the price. Didn't have this issue with BOEING we could remove a part send it to our back shops and have a rebuilt part back in a matter of hours vs days. I crewed A-10 and even though the Air Force was intentionally short changing the program our maintainers consistently achieved above 90% FMC rates . But in combat conditions the greatest asset a person can unit could have was the dozens of scrounges boxes the maintainers kept with them. Most of the parts changed daily on Aircraft are simple things like light bulb lens covers, antennas, filters, hydro valves, gaskets o- rings , map lights etc....These all fit nicely into a large tackle box. I had three large tackle boxes of scrounge when I crewed and those boxes stayed in the trunk of my car and went with me every time we deployed or went off station. I've lost count of how many times my scrounge box save a flight from being canceled.

[@zonacrs]

That is a double edged sword. Granting intellectual property to the government if your company paid for the initial design is a fools game, they will go to any second or third source they can if not checked/charged. That and they make industry inefficiency pale in comparison to their own. They basically think they are owed intellectual property rights even if they did not pay up front for it. The supply chain is on to their BS and not going to the Uncle Sam dance anymore unless they pay up front, and for sustainment, for said intellectual property. They are f*cking thieves you and I pay salaries and lucrative retirement benefits to via our taxes and and have to wait until we are half dead for health care. I deal with those @sshats every year in audits and they act like they own the designs they are auditing and spew endless bullshit about requirements they make up on the fly in an effort to get free sh*t and blatantly steal intellectual property. They are f*cking thieves that we pay for.

[@MilitaryTalkGuy]

LM persuades the politicians and military leadership to sign stupid contracts where LM retains full and sole access to all the data on the F35. So as a result, the military is totally dependent on LM to keep the F35 flying. In what world would a government agree to such a horrible deal? The money spent wining and dining politicians, and military leadership sure does pay off well for defense contractors like LM. LM isn't the only one doing it but they take it to extremes and as a result, they get lion's share of contracts.

[@Citadin]

All these policies were set up in the post 1990s Fukuyama End of History mindset, with the only NATO wars being sporadic bombings of goat herders and wedding parties in the mideast.

[@kwgm8578]

As a retired engineer (gratefully), JIT is a bean counter's dream, and an engineering nightmare.

[@ehsnils]

Sorry, the production has to be halted until tomorrow because the truck carrying the allotment of screws for today had an accident.

[@andyf4292]

JIT was invented in a world where traffic doesn't exist

[@andyf4292]

place I worked at... proudly JIT... then after a couple of years, got themselves a crafty off-site warehouse

[@pietskiet42-_]

Add the caos of war ,especially with Russian and Chinese hackers on top of everything ....😮😮😮

[@denkeylee]

JIT works great until it doesn't. One hiccup any where in the chain and you are screwed. We technicians would tell our engineers, it looks good on paper but wouldn't work in real life. Who does management listen to, the engineers. Blind leading the blind.

[@azizyahaya2174]

Ah... The F-35 Lightning. America's scariest paper tiger and deepest money pit

[@tiagostein4057]

It is not a paper tiger... i just need to be use Tuesday to wednesday with a 2 hour lunch internal and 8 hour rest period in between.

[@dennisvillacorte4122]

K😅😅😅​@@tiagostein4057

[@knowledgeishalfthebattle]

Don't fall for the BULLSHEEEET propaganda... Iran had F-35s dropping munitions over their cities and could do nothing about it...😁💯Belgium, Finland, Germany, Greece, Israel, Italy, Japan, Poland and the U.K. didn't buy the F-35s for no reason...

[@m.a3914]

And how do you know that? Just because somebody told you on the internet? If it was a paper tiger why everybody wants it? F-35 reached peak production

[@davidryke113]

​@m.a3914 Because money laundering. Why nobody talking about Russia's S-400 being able to detect them?

[@joehelland1635]

I was army for 7 years maintaining apaches, we had a solid 92% readiness while i was in charge of hanger maintenance. Now we also burned cash to achieve this, but our largest downtimes were all caused by not stocking large expensive parts and having to order them when they rarely failed.

[@EnginAtik]

I was an intern in a large mechanic shop for cars and trucks where master mechanics kept a personal inventory of parts like filters etc. We called it "under arm inventory" because you carried these parts from the depot to your shop under your arm wrapped in a newspaper.

[@BramBiesiekierski]

Same thing happens at my job. We maintain a large fleet of civil and rail construction machinery. We try and keep a selection of critical spares for when they go down

[@cuoresportivo155]

@@BramBiesiekierski When I was a bus mechanic, we also kept an inventory of all the stuff that could be fixed in a few hours. For things that took a day of work keeping stock is less useful. Glass excluded, replacement was handled by third party but we did repairs.

[@lat78610]

I work at airbus and we do the same for small parts

[@anthonykaiser974]

The Army unit level supply when I got in in the 90s was authorized a prescribed load list (PLL) of spare parts based on historical requirements. Battalions had PLL managers to ensure that was done and nobody got carried away hording a bunch of extra widgets. You can only move so much stuff to deploy effectively but you know you're going to need supplies of certain things. That said, anyone who was in more than a hot minute knows stories about hording, Joe's hiding the extra from the inspection teams, etc.

[@seesafar9912]

you know Bernie, too?

[@philipdavis7521]

It wasn’t recognised so much at the time, but JIT was at least partially responsible for the chaos in hospitals at the beginning of Covid. ‘Efficient’ JIT stock policies in hospitals run by MBA’s resulting in massive shortages of basic materials (like masks), and an incapacity within the industry to supply in time. It didn’t seem to occur to anyone that in a pandemic, viruses don’t hang around waiting for biohazard protection manufacturers to ramp up production.

[@BOZ_11]

One idea for the world. We had a plum in my old place of work that wanted to implement Kanban in our software firm! Clown

[@xantiom]

JIT makes sense in normal times Engineering everything to cover for black swan events is wasteful in normal times, especially when you don't know what the black swan event will be. We can't be all driving tanks on the street just in case. The rational and economic management of resources is not simple.

[@BOZ_11]

@@xantiom we don't drive tanks or anything else as part of our deployment or development of SaaS (all of it web based). Said clown didn't last long and came from a betting company. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk; if you can help it

[@HauntedXXXPancake]

@@xantiom JIT makes sense in areas, where delays through fluctuations in demand are an acceptable cost if seen in the balance to the benefits. The classic example being the birthplace of JIT - Car manufacturing. Nobody will die because there's suddenly a shortage of new Toyotas rolling off the line. However, I'd argue the medical field or the military just aren't such areas. Now, You make it sound like JIT or Black Swan stockpiles are the only two options, but that certainly isn't the case. They're the extreme ends of the spectrum.

[@hotcakesism]

Some people really can't help it tho ​@@BOZ_11

[@vladimirmihnev9702]

"just in time" sounds great in civilized society, but for a war machine it a fever dream to be polite.

[@Nerthos]

It worked in Japan, but Japan is tiny and overpopulated, unlike about 200 countries.

[@vladimirmihnev9702]

@@Nerthos and doesn't involved in combat operations. Also I dont speak about making cars I speak about stuff that is in combat, also it doesn't help that you need to get those parts from a ocean away. I mean its a classic issue for soldiers to deal with stuff made up by people who have 0 actually combat experience but have a lot of peace time industry experience.

[@Citadin]

@@Nerthos it works well in Japan because the suppliers are local and more finely tuned with the main producers.

[@clippy-v4q]

JIT does not work in a supermarket

[@steveperreira5850]

Yes, in war planning you need over-supply

[@michaelogden5958]

I worked for a corporation that absolutely depended on JIT. There was always a razor's edge between high efficiency and chaos, without much possibility of in-between. And that was way before Covid and certainly not in any kind of military defense setting.

[@bjorntorlarsson]

Wasn't it the Japanese who popularied JIT in the 1970s? I suspect it came out of necessity, making the most of limited resources in the ruins after WW2. It's not a traditional Indo-European mentality. I've worked in a heavy steel industry (lathing BIG stuff), and I was impressed by the "old fashioned" flexibility. If there was no bolt available for a certain clamp chuck to keep stuff in place, one drilled and threaded it for a bolt size that was available. The worker himself walked to the maintenance department to use their drill and other tools to solve the problem. No involvement of some purchasing department calling up some salesman and waiting for delivery. Tools were even made or modified to fascilitate their use, like reaching into a tight place. This is of course not possible in any kind of industry. But I think that it is possible to a much higher degree than it is applied, and even more so by having some all around general tools that are not strictly necessary for the production process when everything runs smoothly. The factory I worked in was 140 years old and still had everything inhouse. Tungsten and iron ore entered in one end, and out the other end came finished products like rock crushers for the very mine that delivered the iron ore! Foundry, metal cutting, carpentry, rubber workshop, paint shop, assembly et cetera was all indoors.

[@wumi2419]

​@@bjorntorlarssonJIT is more efficient for assembly lines, so you don't need to keep stock of parts that are shipped to you across half the world. If shipping is reliable, you don't have to bother with warehouses and keeping inventory. Also if something needs to be stored in specific conditions, long term on site storage is even more expensive. JIT doesn't matter much for integrated processing, like what you were talking about, as there's no need to store a shipment worth of components in the first place. And It obviously relies on "happy path", where issues don't arise, and if they do, you have insurance. Ability to modify things locally is like insurance in that sense.

[@longshot7601]

JIT is a nightmare to keep going and even worse when it's not and this is for manufacturing where there is a production schedule. I can only imagine the chaos when enough 19-year-old line mechanics forget to input something on their computer screens muchless when something unexpected breaks.

[@k53847]

I'd bet that FedEx doesn't have a plan to handle UPS mortaring the flight line at Memphis. .

[@Max_Da_G]

@@wumi2419 The topic is military aircraft and military application. JIT doesn't work in military setting, if only because the enemy WILL be disrupting the supply chain. That's why a stock of parts ready for delivery on a moments notice is needed. Impossible with JIT. All this nice stuff you mention is well and good in a perfect world. Except the world isn't perfect, 100% efficiency is impossible and anyone that thinks that JIT is good for military is nothing more than a money leech that's totally ignorant of realities of war.

[@ma61king]

Wow, even the spare parts have stealth capability!

[@oceanicfeeling3135]

Whatever it's capabilities, the f-35 is the model of inefficiency. This is by design. The f- 35s primary mission you ask? To make money.

[@grimgoreironhide9985]

And the project was kept alive because all the politicians did not want people to lose jobs in their states. The MIC made sure every state had 3rd party manufacturer who made components for the F35. Politicians are not going to risk their constituents who work in the MIC to lose their jobs.

[@mccoybyz1099]

The program was the model of inefficiency not the platform itself necessarily, and many mainstay fighters didn't start out in the best of ways

[@m.a3914]

Not true and there is no evidence to suggest that. F-35 is less expensive than many 4th gens out there. This is due to tthe massive production run. You have to realize that people who buy this jet are not less intelligent than you. Unlike you they actually know a thing or 2 aabout the logistics, capabilities and expenses. The jet is currently running at peak production. This means that the jet is in demand and there are many parts for it.

[@camencowogh8333]

@@m.a3914 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6CYXnppjMlmfcU

[@matsv201]

The concept of using JIT for military operations baffle my mind. Millitary is desinged to operate during war.. and logistic reliability is the first rhing to go.

[@nickl5658]

Yeah but US military operation are not against near peers, but against vastly inferior opponents. JIT for F35 is not a problem when the opponents has no air force. F35 operation came into maturity fighting goat herders.

[@whitescar2]

I mean, it is a good concept for peacetime operation. And considering the US needs of the F-35 when the project was developed, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Costs for running f-22 were astronomical, so in order to fund F-35, it had to have lower costs. And in case of some COIN missions being flown, there would be thousands of F-35s available, which would mean plenty of redundancy in the fleet without it having a super-high availability ratio. Enough at least to carry over until the supply could improve. I can totally see why it made sense at the time. There is also something to be said about F-35 going into full-rate production meaning that suppliers of spares (being the same people who make the parts for the production line) will ramp up capacity. Which means there is more capacity overall. So in a pinch, you sacrifice newbuilds in order to supply spares. Doesnt' seem to be a problem for L-M what with them floating hundreds of completed airplanes on the parking lot...

[@mikebarbeau8569]

The issue now though, is war among certain countries might only last minutes???

[@matsv201]

@@nickl5658 But even a inferior opponent may be able to launch a attack that disrupt the logistics. Really. nothing can happen, and the logistic is still disrupted.

[@whitescar2]

@@mikebarbeau8569 The only prospective war that might last minutes is one where the F-35 would never have played any role in. Because no military system outside strategic decides wars in minutes.

[@ViceCoin]

DOD has never passed an audit.

[@davidwright8432]

... and never will because it dare not try! It knows, you know ...

[@andreahighsides7756]

Once when Congress tried that September national tragedy happened and destroyed the records

[@pietskiet42-_]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂....of course not ...mater of National Security.....hehehe 😂😂😂😂..haven't you read the memo yet...?

[@pfschuyler]

Nonsense, they audit themselves all the time and always pass with flying colors. 🤣

[@JS-ti8ny]

It’s funny until you realize that our DOD err MIC is Powned by Isřëäl. They own our Military Our Congress Our Senate Our Judiciary etc etc.

[@MarchHare59]

Low readiness was an issue before the first Gulf War but the reality on the battlefield showed that readiness of high tech aircraft, like the F117, actually went up. The difference is peace-time vs war time priorities. In peace time, air forces can afford to wait for parts and maintenance crews are smaller in order to save money. In a war, the budget gets thrown out the window, vital parts production and distribution gets ramped up, and maintenance crews are strengthened to cover the round the clock mission cycles. The studies that red flagged the readiness issues is not an indictment of the F35, but recognition that there is a problem, and that steps are being taken to correct it, so the fact that the information over low readiness is out there is actually a good thing.

[@nolga3569]

"Budget gets thrown out the window" This is how you end up 36 trillion in debt. 🤣

[@snuffle2269]

This is how the US produced 155mm artillery ammunition in a factory in Scranton that was built in Korean war days and had very little improvement upgrades. The cow can only be milked for so many years.

[@karakiri283]

Gulf War is probably the worst example of a "war" and why nato is in such a bad spot right now. Because we got all the bad habits we have right now because of this pastich of a war. Remember that NATO generals and experts really thought ukrainians would be able to break the russian defensive lines during the summer counter offensive because ukrainians were trained and equipped by NATO. Never forget about it.

[@Birdsaregovspys6969]

@@karakiri283false… The US told Ukraine to NOT do what they did. Which was split up their force on two entirely non supporting fronts. Ukraine ignored the advice and got greedy expecting to still break the lines. Instead they didn’t have the strength to actually do it and the US was RIGHT.

[@volvo245]

That might have been true in the early 90s before huge swathes of the US manufacturing capacity was transferred to Asia.

[@nesagljivic]

I like how everybody is worried about L&M profitability . Wars are not won on the stock market . Ask Stalin!

[@fredmdbud]

And where is the USSR now?

[@Nerthos]

The US state exists to facilitate L&M profits. If you oppose this, you're probably a ultra right wing fascist extremist.

[@nesagljivic]

@@fredmdbud I was referring to the war effort. USSR has lost in the peace time. Being unable to create efficient peace economy set them on the path of disappearance .

[@beuman0]

Wars are definitely won on the stock market - Rothschild at Waterloo

[@squireson]

Soviet Union wouldn't have acknowledged the critical role that U.S. Lend lease played in the Soviet military. Hitler wouldn't have been repulsed in the Russian winter if it hadn't been for _vast U.S. support,_ not Russian hardiness. So, yeah, the stock market kinda does have something to say about outcomes in warfare.

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

In a war time scenario a just in time system can easily be disrupted

[@ovidiudraghici9941]

You mean like in Ukraine? 😂

[@davidwright8432]

... just in time to surrender or be blasted?

[@aaabbb-ff1sp]

just in time for war? 😂😂😂

[@ehsnils]

That's why wars are won by the best logistics. And that's why long distance missiles are effective.

[@HauntedXXXPancake]

@@ovidiudraghici9941 I'd love for you to explain that joke, but I bet you can't, 'cause it's purely based on "it's funny if you don't think about it".

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

1. It is a hangar queen, but when it flies it hurts properly... 2. An army with just in time logistics is an army made for peace time, how do you take a peace time army to war? That is the question... 3. One day in the far future, Cylons will tell stories about OTIS, similar to stories we tell about Joseph 12th son of Jacob, I'm sure of it...😅

[@scroopynooperz9051]

The million missing spare parts are probably sitting in a Chinese R&D house 😂

[@LuoSon312_G8]

more like the orders were canceled when the manufacturer was revealed to be China and not the US or its NATO clients

[@tassiek2450]

They were never produced.

[@karakiri283]

@@tassiek2450 my thoughts too.

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

@@tassiek2450Beat me to it.

[@miguellogistics984]

Shipping interception is the fastest way to get a hold of an entire aircraft.

[@davidgavin7280]

Even calling it "Lightning" when us British used to have a glorious fighter plane called "Lightning" is a travesty

[@damiku-8866]

The American P-38 Lightning, a renowned WWII fighter plane, preceded the British plane by a couple of decades. It is orders of magnitude more famous and well-known than the plane you mention.

[@steveperreira5850]

Both are exceptionally ugly aircraft. The British one is prettier. My opinion as an American

[@charleshartzell8322]

At least they didnt call it a Tom Cat...

[@sadekgheidan]

To be fair, It's called Lightning II (Lightning 2). But I agree, it is a "travesty" 😂

[@sadekgheidan]

​@charleshartzell8322 just wait until the tom kitty is developed

[@fryertuck6496]

Let me guess, another 100 billion...

[@Cheesecake99YearsAgo]

Just grab the noney printer machine 😂

[@piccalillipit9211]

A recent report said the US is NOT ready to fight a large scale w4r, not even close. Can you gues the remedy the bi-partizan committee came up with...??? YEP - MORE MONEY. Cut welfare, raise taxes and spend more money on the military.

[@dragonmyke]

Only 100 billion? One trillion to update the nuclear arsenal.😊

[@blackhornetf]

​@Cheesecake99YearsAgo Actually you don't even need a money printer these days ( They just need a keyboard with numbers ) example - $500 can be turned into $500,000,000 and because America stopped using the Gold standard decades ago you don't need the stockpiles of actual gold to back it up.

[@Տիգրան-ժ1է]

I want to ask why in the USA modernization sometimes costs more than the aircraft itself?

[@agricolaurbanus6209]

Some call it grounded, some call it based.😂

[@An1Kum]

Aircraft so advanced that it will drop the pilot and go crash somewhere on its own. 😂

[@niilespunkari8832]

That was so crazy. Maybe, the plane autopilot ejected the DEI pilot (sorry) intuitively. (Sorry, again.)

[@flixri726]

@@niilespunkari8832 how is it to be that delusional, that you try to fight your (very american) silly DEI culture war here? XD It's a channel about military tech, not your daily irrational fox-scare.

[@ovidiudraghici9941]

😂

[@jgw9990]

So funny, no other aircraft has ever crashed.

[@drtookey]

@@niilespunkari8832it’s not a pilot it’s a meat servo

[@Crallux]

I still can't believe that we chose the F-35 as our new aircraft in Switzerland... The Gripen E would have been a better choice IMO *Edit* Oh dear...

[@Corbots80]

Not if you ever want to contribute to Nato and participate in missions outside your country

[@kentunemo5866]

@@Corbots80What are you talking about ?😂

[@Jymvador]

@@Corbots80 Not sure to follow. Several countries do not even have a F35 and are part of NATO and are doing NATO missions outside of their country.

[@Jymvador]

Yeah, what's the use of a super stealthy F35 in "air police" in which (apparently) we need visual contact.

[@ChaptermasterPedroKantor-kv5yw]

@@Corbots80Why contribute to a failing alliance? But lets ignore that. Switzerland prides itself on its neutrality. They don't want to contribute to anyone or participate in any mission, other then maybe a UN peacekeeping mission.

[@jaimeortega4940]

Anytime you hear or see the phrase "Just in time" add the words "to fail." Now reality is complete.

[@jcgamer892]

Indeed. the problem with Just in time is it only works if you can get everything you need close by. When you expand to a global scale, one little hic-up and your entire production line is in shambles, as everyone finally discovered with pandemic. the problem now is trying to undo 30+ years of "just in time" production put in place by MBA Corpo CEOs....

[@whitescar2]

It's weird how the world's auto-industry somehow manages to function, being that it operates on JIT and doesn't seem to fail...

[@MakisGirg]

@@whitescar2 where were you hiding when the auto industry had to curtail production because of microprocessor shortages ?

[@jaimeortega4940]

Did you get the memo? A bunch of car companies have failed here recently. More to follow.

[@whitescar2]

@@MakisGirg I don't think curtailing production is the same as a catastrophic collapse... Yeah, they produced cars with later updates to follow, like the infotainment system. Same goes in War. Or have you not heard of wartime models? I mean, the entire WW2 Soviet tank production line was one giant wartime model where corners were cut and peacetime luxuries like rubber-padded track wheels were omitted. And you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, call T-34s high-tech machines. So let's remind ourselves that even during the hayday of industrial production and warehousing, we were unable to provide enough war materiel to the front and had to cut features and reduce complexity in order to make enough. Maybe, just maybe, the issue is the inherent black hole of warfare, rather than some singular production methodology. Even Germany, making tanks in a bespoke fashion that was the "JIT" of its day, managed to ramp up tank production year on year, even under massive embargos. But we're going to utterly collapse because we don't have warehouses full of expensive spares decaying and costing taxpayers billions?

[@renatosureal]

SUMMARIZING... operational costs are UNATTAINABLE

[@tjallingdalheuvel126]

35% over target at introduction I read. Nevetmind how much tje development costs overshot the target. Don't think this plane will have a long career.

[@michaelwu9450]

@@tjallingdalheuvel126that’s the same thing they said for the: 1)F-16 (early engine reliability issues led them lawn darting shockingly often) 2)F-14/F-15 “too heavy, too expensive, too complex” 3)F-18 (criticized for being slower, less capable than the F-14 during introduction) It’ll buff lol, people have a shockingly short memory span. The 35 has a solid mission set and is a solid 5th gen platform. You wouldn’t get to 17 countries purchasing something just by political leveraging alone.

[@sealioso]

​@@michaelwu9450f104 reaction

[@nikolaideianov5092]

​@@michaelwu9450yeah A lot of people seem to think they are smarter then the goverments of over a dosen countrys And it doesnt help that there are still russian bots saying "f35 bad mig 15 better"

[@karakiri283]

​@@tjallingdalheuvel126 Operating cost will never reach target. GAO say it was 42k$ per hours and buy now around 37k$ very far from the less than 20k$ promise (F-16 cost was the aim) and everybody acknowledged it.

[@stweasel]

The 35 stands for only 35% will fly. Consolidation in the industry ruined US aircraft.

[@niilespunkari8832]

Pay for 3 get 1. Aargh!

[@maximilliancunningham6091]

"Optimization" by definition, is inflexible. John Boyd made that point in his dissertations, and philosophy. When you run into a situation like Covid, that's when you run into problems, and very fast.

[@avroarchitect1793]

Boyd and the fighter mafia were mentally stuck in the era of the Gun fighter. A time long since passed.

[@MakisGirg]

​@@avroarchitect1793 Boyd wrote the employment envelope manual for the sidewinder missiles and later on did the energy-maneuverability theory and the OODA loop all of which are still fighter pilot curriculum, stop regurgitating MIC bullshit. The research of the guys you dismiss as old farts, launched the USAAF from the F4 to the F14, F15, F16 and F18, still the backbone of USA airpower. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy%E2%80%93maneuverability_theory

[@acceptablecasualty5319]

Yeah, John "Radar is a Fad" Boyd. Media Darling, is all the little grifter was.

[@piotrd.4850]

@@acceptablecasualty5319 Except when one overly optimizes for given scenario, it pays (too big) of penalty in all others. E.g. in IT industry it was once said that 'premature optimization is source of all evil'.

[@danwelterweight4137]

Everything in these aircraft are made to make money, not fight wars. That is what happens when have a private profit driven military industrial manufacturing complex.

[@martinabowm1786]

I have to correct myself what I wrote in my first comment: Switzerland got the go-ahead of "last stage assembly" of 4 of their 36 ordered F-35A and training their specialists in the US for that stage on another 4 that will come back with the trained engineers. There are still issues with the overall contract but they also accept Italy as the manufacturer of all the other F-35's. A political problem has arisen about a dramatic "over budget" problem and problems with software that were agreed differently.

[@brunol-p_g8800]

I’m Swiss, and as a friend pilot in the Swiss air force puts it: « buying a strike airplane for air policing is the dumbest move ever, nobody in the air force wants to fly this brick ».

[@anthonykaiser974]

​@@brunol-p_g8800they say that now. The aircraft is way more than a "strike aircraft." It's like a mini-AWACS and mini-JSTARS in one.

[@martinabowm1786]

​@@brunol-p_g8800 quite honestly, I thought the same some time ago! Why would CH need this type of jet? Wouldn't a Gripen or the French Rafale be enough? Or even the European Typhoon. What was wrong with the "Hornet"? I always understood the F-35 as a long range stealth attack plane. Switzerland does not need that, Switzerland only defends, the country is to small for "long range" attacks and they can hide inside the mountains and valley's! All of the jets listed here are so fast they can literally reach any point in Switzerland in such little time that stealth does not give any real advantage. Once you see them on the radar they are already on top of you! Stealth really just does not come into game! Does not make sense, especially looking at the costs of the F-35 overall! And now a little Suisse greeting: Salü Bruno, ich bin auch ein Schweizer, ä Bärner im Ausland. Habe mich ein wenig mit der ganzen F-35 Geschichte der Schweiz beschäftigt und denke, dass sich der Bundesrat irgendwie "überluepft" hat! Es macht einfach nix viel Sinn! Vielleicht sehe ich das falsch, aber von hier aus gesehen scheint die F-35-Saga schon recht verwirrend! Wunsche ein schönes Wochenende!

[@PhilfreezeCH]

@@martinabowm1786a big reason why they went with the F-35 is that Lockheed promised a lot in terms of cost and capability. History will show if they can actually fulfill these promises, I doubt it. Interestingly enough one mission criteria our military added between the initial Grippen proposal and the new one is a ~500km range stealth strike on some enemy logistic hub. Probably reasonable for any other military, super questionable for Switzerland. Btw some cost that was initially thought to be part of the contract is now apparently not part of it anyway and the military has to pay for it extra, so the cost hikes are already starting. For the Grippen specifically, the first referendum we had the military specifically proposed the Grippen which at the time was untested. This was a strategic mistakes as it allowed opponents of military spending and critics of the specific jet to unite and kill it. Going for the Grippen in the second round could have been difficult politically. After the fact we found out that the Bundesrat was actually conducting secret talks with France with the goal of getting some EU related favors for us buying their jets. Its not entirely clear why this fell through but it was most likely because of the previously mentioned promises. According to the manufacturer the F-35 was just very cheap and extremely capable, making every other decision questionable. We will see. I expect it to be an extremely capable (and for us overkill) jet but it will cost waaaay more than initially projected. Can‘t wait for the military to try to hide it, failing and then everyone starting to scream at each other.

[@martinabowm1786]

​@@PhilfreezeCHwell, big thanks for that very detailed information! Very interesting, must have missed a few things in CH over the years of my absence! I do agree: there are more surprises lurking and big costs coming head on for the Swiss Financial Minister!!😪

[@nekomakhea9440]

JIT only makes sense if you're making some non-critical widget, where shutting down production due to supply disruptions means nobody dies. For anything safety critical like hospitals or defense critical like F-35s, using JIT logistics is completely baffling. In a natural disaster, civil unrest, or war, logistics is the first thing to get disrupted, so how are your fancy toys going to keep functioning?

[@LogistiQbunnik]

YEah, I know EXACTLY what you mean (I've worked in logistics for some 25 years now, mainly automotive). It should have hit home that JIT is NOT the best approach to stock / spare part management for any army at the latest during Covid, with that ship stuck in the Suez straight. It's great when everything runs smoothly within the defined operating bandwidth. Breaks down when you have large disruption and demand spikes, which is pretty much a basic given in any war.

[@bonausmil4837]

They bought the best presents for the executives in charge of the logistics division

[@David-cf2iq]

Denmark purchased 28 F-35s. The hangar system alone cost 700 million. This will basically bankrupt the Danish military. Goodbye to a somewhat functional welfare state.

[@ernestty8465]

Wait F 35s have something like a purpose built hanger system? Is this mandatory for all countries that would operate the jet?

[@cannes76]

Not that I'm defending the purchase, but 700m dollars is not going to hurt the Danish state.

[@SimonZerafa]

Jebus. They have completely and utterly misunderstood what JIT was supposed to do, as do many industries 😟🤦‍♂ JIT was never supposed to eliminate all redundancy and buffers in a supply chain.

[@davidwright8432]

Well, this is the result of having MBAs in charge rather than engineers!

[@madaxe606]

I work in emergency services, and the whole 'just in time' system is used there as well, for everything from available personnel to key equipment. And of course it regularly falls apart whenever an unforeseen event causes even a minor increase in demand.

[@basicforge]

In wartime you don't want JIT. You need to have a bounty of parts.

[@nihluxler1890]

It always baffled me what the F-35 was supposed to answer for… A VTOL stealth jet that has to do everything from CAS to air combat is absurd. It’s like wanting a standard issue weapon that does everything from sidearm to AA machine gun, the best outcome you can hope for is a horrific logistical and maintenance nightmare. It’s also what makes the Patriot such a dud, you get a system that’s somewhat capable of doing a bunch of things some of them poorly, and the trade-off is an interceptor so expensive it’s only (barely) cost-effective against 100 million $ aircrafts.

[@GenghisX999]

Bingo. I would not take an SUV to race in the F1 either.

[@92HazelMocha]

Wait until you find out it *cant* be an interceptor because the aircraft can't sustain supersonic flight above m1.3 for over 4 minutes.

[@anthonykaiser974]

​​@@92HazelMochathis interceptor but wasn't about the F-35, but Patriot. Slow your roll and read carefully.

[@klaasvakie]

​@@anthonykaiser974his point is that the US MIC is a fraudulent association of neocons who are putting the entire US at risk to line their own pockets!

[@nihluxler1890]

@@92HazelMocha oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. The airframe has to accommodate for VTOL so it’s much smaller and lighter than any other 5th gen fighter, which means it’s limited in the size and quantity of ordnance it can carry, which is further compounded by the the stealth requirements AND it also can carry less fuel which means less range…

[@RealityCheck6969]

SO if the USA says no, you can't use your planes for long... That is crazy.

[@92HazelMocha]

This was a huge issue and why so many were against F35 adoption in Europe. It essentially turns your country into a vassal state, because your military only functions if it does what the US wants.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

Soooo its not actually the F-35 itself, its our pathetic managerial class and their incompetence.

[@johnshackford]

No it's the whole program. They tried to pack to much into one platform and everything into a few black boxes that are over reliant on software and updates to function. About 90% of what plagues the F-35 are software issues. Dod recently refused delivery because of these software. issues. Funny thing I crewed kc-135's when they had the old analog gauges. in the the mid 90's they did the PACER CRAIG mods that gave us partial glass cockpits our FMC rates nose dived after the Pacer Craig Mods. we were constantly having issues with those boxes. Moral of the story is the more complicated they make a system the greater chance there is of something breaking. Here's why with these glass cockpits they are combining multiple system into one box. If the box goes bad then every system in that particular lil black box has to be ops check and inspected. That takes a lot of time.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

@@johnshackford I get where you're coming from (former civi pilot) but just like the F-16 was radical for it's day so is the f-35. Has the f-16 ultimately been worth it!? Once the issues are sorted the f-35 will be horrendously lethal (already is, but in numbers they're even more lethal).

[@johnshackford]

@@NPC-fl3gq I crewed F-16's they are a simple airframe and most the problems the F-16 had early in it's career had to do with wiring issues and chaffing. Believe it or not the A-10 had the same issues with wing root chaffing.

[@rainnelmaclang4803]

JIT is the accountant's "I'm in heaven" scenario. Unfortunately accountants don't fight wars. In fact, wars are not won by generals who act like bean counters, wasting time counting how many bullets he has. They are won by generals who stockpile, hoard, and practically steal his ammo and equipment to make sure he has more than enough to fight his war.

[@mousseman8239]

JIT works until a TBM hits a warehouse, and a torpedo hits a ship shipping spare parts from the US to Europe.

[@marcondespaulo]

Just in Time is, as Nassim Taled defines, fragile. You need many things in hard times, but not fragility.

[@davidwright8432]

Plus, with JIT systems you never see the black swans until they're in the front door!

[@xantiom]

​@@davidwright8432you can't neither be wasteful by planning for cataclysm when 90% of the time it will be a peaceful time. How many tyres and engine blocks, and fuel will you save in your garage just in case? Are you willing to waste money on anti-seismic systems in your house even if there are no faults near your city? You do realize that it makes no sense to prep for extremely unlikely events, there has to be a way to allocate resources in a productive way. You don't need a bulletproof car. It is all in the risk assessment. Mindlessly spending on stuff just in case is wasteful.

[@niilespunkari8832]

Just one example: Finnish air force bought F35's, although the plane could not fly to Finland for the local sales presentation, but instead was brought as cargo, and it could not fly during the presentation due to fears of summer thunderstorms; but the Finnish generals wanted it nevertheless. Imagine, you buy a car which cannot drive to your house, and after it been brought as cargo to you it cannot be drive due to possible, due to possible, bad weather. Like really, WTF? That was just one example, another one can be Australia; that how (in hell) can the nation defend her massive land mass, and even larger air space, with these awkward things?!

[@mauricio2456]

"Imagine, you buy a car which cannot drive to your house". Yeah, cause everyone knows that cars are driven to the from the factory to dealership one by one by peoplo, not hauled in bulk in a massive truck. Holy crap, you´re lacking some brain mass...

[@user540000]

milspec. cant fly because its raining. lmao does the rain stop for wars? what a joke

[@goodlife6277]

The generals wanted ? No, NATO ( USA ) wanted😎 FINLAND it's not free...

[@buzzpedrotti5401]

Buy a race car for a race. Buy a warplane to win a war. Buying the F35 buys into the US Defense industrial complex for decades which is decades further developed, and more expensive than regional competitors. Buying into The EU gets the current tech advantages but a very weak or non- demonstrated commitment to defend themselves in a crisis. They likely would fold and pull support under existential pressure the Ukrainians face. Finland will fight for itself. It wants allies who will do the same. Not unreliable producers who want others to fight.

[@sCiphre]

The cybertruck of the skies

[@TomFynn]

Ah, the F35. The iPhone of the USAF.

[@tolson57]

In the Navy, I worked intermediate maintenance on fire control and avionics system for the F-14, E2, S-3, and other carrier base aircraft. I one thing I learned was that the primary thing that drove PMC and FMC rates for the airwing was parts availability. After I retired, I was exposed to JIT supply systems and was not impressed for all the reasons you pointed out. It has its place in a number of products, but it defiantly does not belong in the Military. A breakdown in one point in the supply chain could cause you to lose a war. In the case of the F-35, other problem is that the majority of avionics repair has been centralized in depots to reduce costs, but all the planned depots have not been built. The people to operate them have not been trained. From what I have learned, the Navy and Air Force have almost eliminated the Intermediate level of support. I hope someone will tell me I am wrong. For those that don't know, the Navy and Air Force used to use a 3 tier maintenance system, Organizational level (Squadron, fix the planes with parts from a local pool, swap boxes), Intermediate level (Ship or Base, fix the parts from the planes and restock the pool), Depot (anything that can't be fixed at Intermediate Level is sent to Depot then sent back to restock the pool).

[@ArekP64]

That spare parts stock part gave me flashbacks from my workplace when we couldn't do anything for a while due to logistics...

[@kitbag9033]

With respect, are we talking about 1m washers, rivets, nuts or engines and radars. Headline figures are often BS when you dig into the actuality and importance of the missing spares.

[@ArekP64]

@@kitbag9033 well I was specifically referring to part of not having stock and instead calling in parts from suppliers on order as we require them, I dealt with that nonsense, your looking for something to do at your work as the whole line is on halt as one part has not arrived on request day

[@Etheoma]

Honestly when it comes to military hardware maybe just in time isn't the right model, isn't it the US armies internal motto's that if you're not early you're late.

[@tjallingdalheuvel126]

In most cases. In other being early is as bad as being late.

[@pauldean8638]

Ha ha ha , the biggest battle the f35 has ever had is maintaining it . 29% operational fleet is a joke

[@shaider1982]

So the problem is less on the airplane and more in the program.

[@Millennium7HistoryTech]

Yes

[@GenghisX999]

Compare the specs of F35 w F22, SU57, MIG41, J20, J31/35. Yes MIG41 not in production yet but soon. But just with the known 5th gen fighters. The F35 is far far inferior. Install latest avionics and a stealth coating on an F15, it would absolutely destroy the F35.

[@shaider1982]

​​@@GenghisX999 you mean Silent Eagle? Would not be as stealthy. There's always a danger in comparing specs with the doctrine the planes were designed for.

[@GenghisX999]

@@shaider1982 How stealthy do you have to be? The fighter able to identify, lock on and fire kill capable missile would obviously win. So the RCS of .1 or .2 is not that big a factor. Bigger factor then would be avionics to see and lock on. Then do you have missile w adequate range? Once locked on can your plane maneuver violently enough to break lock? Can it run fast enough if you still cannot detect bogey? Speculation now is F16 shot down by Odessa was by SU57 w R37M at distance of over 250km. Not confirmed yet but it would not be first time SU57 has air to air kill at greater than 200km.

[@MilitaryTechNerd006]

​@@GenghisX999the F16's cause of crash is undisclosed, where the hell did you pull the Su57 from?

[@tomschmidt381]

Glad to see the focus on logistics, I did not realize the low available of F-35s was due to supply problems. I don't think most folks appreciate how hard it is to deliver what and where stuff is needed in the military. Your point about losing a warehouse and the devastating effect on logistics is dead on. JIT was designed to reduce cost, but like any overoptimized system it is extremely fragile and not well suited to the chaos of war

[@Youcomeasuare]

Earlier this year a pentagon official claimed that only 29% of theseF-35's were mission capable. Also, that for every 8 hours of flight time, it required 30+ hours of maintenance. So how does the hundred of billions of dollars put on our tab help in the big picture? Sounds more like a conversation piece and a hanger queen.

[@abrogard142]

but this guy claims it requires less than the F-16 for instance.

[@xantiom]

The thing is that it is a paradox: the more sophisticated, the harder to maintain, and the more likely that it will be grounded.

[@acceptablecasualty5319]

That's not a paradox. It's completely causal.

[@PhilfreezeCH]

Everyone who just proposes JIT logistics for critical things (healthcare, power and water infrastructure, the military etc) is an idiot and should genuinely be immediately fired. JIT is fine for profit maximizing industry where a delay is tolerable, so basically every consumer good. It is not appropriate for critical system that absolutely need to run.

[@MakisGirg]

Well, i explained this concept to the hospital i worked, i told them the nuclear medicine department can not be run like a hot dog stand and the Informatics systems that has failures every week needs to be overhauled and redesigned ASAP. Guess what, they didnt renew my contract. Fortunately with my "have reserves and multiple redundancy systems on" mentality i am frugal so i can afford not to work for As-holes.

[@BencerCourt123]

These are the Ivy League MBA.. smart alec who makes money and run the ship to the ground

[@ShayneBiggs-ix2vp]

Best aviation channel ever

[@memeticist]

Hmm, 51% readiness in peacetime. I wonder what that would drop to under combat conditions?

[@jakedee4117]

Good on Signor Millenium for talking about this, but the logistic F-35 is just the bleeding edge of a problem that runs right through our culture, from top to bottom and left to right. J I T logistics which looks like it was developed by the sort of people tasked with getting the correct amount of burgers fried chicken and coca cola to Metropolitain areas is woefully inadequate elsewhere. I am reminded of the infamous Titanic disaster which paradoxically may have save massively more people in the long term than drowned that fateful night. Before then shipping companies were not required to have a lifeboat seat for everyone on board. No doubt the accountants had some very convincing figures showing how many gross tons of ships sank per mile travelled and at what distance from shore, all very rational and efficient. It worked very well right up to the point where it didn't.

[@capitalinventor4823]

It's also possible that if the Titanic had the required number of lifeboats the sinking would have been viewed as an example of what the right thing could do to save lives. I admit that the impact would not have been as large. However, we would have been saved from a long film decades later in which a woman asks a man to draw her. Society does tend to learn better from tragedy than success. I doubt in six or seven decades from now that there will be some form of entertainment concerning a pilot landing an airplane on the Hudson River to save save the passengers after something went wrong. They are more likely to see planes crashing out of the sky due to a series of errors caused by a company that used to be run by engineers and now headed by businesspeople.

[@stephaneislistening6103]

I was in Norway in 2008 seing the norwegian colleagues fawning over this goose their government was buying. I was already laughing at the collective madness.

[@rikulappi9664]

Germans bought the F-35 when they realised the SYSTEM is optimised for peace!

[@darthmaul8912]

Germany here. The uptime of the Eurofighter und Tiger helicopter where pretty bad too. About 8 years ago only 2 out of 12 Eurofighter per squadron where ready to fly one average.😂 I heard that things got a bit better since then but I can't confirm or deny that.🤗

[@docsnider8926]

They bought the F35, because it is certified for nuclear bombs.

[@skyvenrazgriz8226]

dont worry they will manage to made that 51% lock good by creating way worse numbers...

[@nikolaideianov5092]

​@@darthmaul8912 yeah thats one point a lot forget The f15 also had terrable readyness rates when it was new These things a fixed with time Personaly i think its early to tell if they will be fixed with in lets say a year or not I will wait untill at least block 10s

[@lancemurdoc6744]

We bought it cause we where forced to do so...we pay 4 times the price of the airforce. They try to replace the Tornado, but thank good this plane is unable to carry the nukes. We not even alowed to maintain this thing by ourself. Seeing it fail is good news for all of us.

[@dukelee3964]

we've got an expensive army but it sucks ..

[@jonwatkins254]

In my unit, C/3/17 Air Cav, RVN, 1968, one day mission ready meant flying a Recon Mission in a Cobra with no weapons systems operational.There was a new push from above to eliminate Hangar Queens, so not only no weapons systems, but a Cobra that had not flown for a long time. Enough of the robbed parts replaced it could fly. The new strategy from above mandated the number of days an aircraft could be down with daily reporting., A new parts donor Hangar Queen was designated to extricate this timed out aircraft from maintenance, and meet the rule.

[@SlayerBG93]

Silly Millennium 7. Dont you know the F-35 is super duper stealthy and smart and no one in the world can shoot it down. So why bother having spare parts when it wont get damaged. A squadron can take out the entire Russian air force over a weekend. Hopefully the sarcasm was painfully obvious but there are really pepole who think like that.

[@jimsteinway695]

I worked on this program, and a DoD engineer. Lockheed had way too much power and told the government to pound sand when we brought up concerns. In the 90’s the government streamlined the contracting process to get out a couple weapons like JDAM and JSOW. But they didn’t put the protections back in the process for the much more complicated weapon system like the F35. I went to the Lockheed F22 to F35 lessons learned meeting where the Lockheed F22 guys told their own co workers on the F35 program what NOT to do. The F35, guys broke every rule the F22 guys told them NOT to do. Lockheed ran amok, paid little heed to their government supervisors and customers and did what they wanted. Hence over runs and over budget. Usually the contractor promises the sky and magic. Then the government gives the contractor a reality check and says we don’t need the magic just the sky and specifications become actually doable. But this time Lockheed said they’ll make magic the sky and give everyone the spaceship the USS enterprise . So far they can’t cut a deck of cards

[@Millennium7HistoryTech]

This is very interesting. Do you have anything you can share? Any source?

[@kaunas888]

The corruption has become endemic.

[@512Berlinetta]

The F-35 is built for profit, and about as useful as a wet cigarette butt.

[@Johnwashere-dt2ov]

JIT components delivered in both peace time and war by your local delivery company by a delivery driver earning minimal wages.

[@alanwilson175]

Just a note about maintenance and “just in time”. It’s all part of a management plan. In a war, there is some risk. The plan for management should have risk management as one part of the complete plan. If there is a risk that spare parts will be “blown up” in a war, then the risk should be mitigated by some plan, such as distributing spare parts in two or more places. The same thing applies to the other problems with managing the plane. Need more mechanics? Then train more. Need more crew? Train more. Cost too much? Find lower cost substitutes. Comprehensive plans take time and effort to develop and maintain. Incidentally, there should be a plan for the plan to maintain the plan. It’s not glamorous, but necessary.

[@up4open763]

Solution? The F-36.

[@CROM-on1bz]

French Rafale.😂😂

[@niilespunkari8832]

@@CROM-on1bz The murder hornet, even cheaper.

[@CROM-on1bz]

@@niilespunkari8832 A 1974 thing? Seriously??

[@user_arbuser_01]

Maybe SU-57? 😁

[@julianpetkov8320]

Father Bergoglio told us that the F-35 is not good for us because he has to sign off on every spare parts consignment, and he is a very busy man, communicating with God and all that. Thanks for the watchful eye, and keeping Bulgaria in your prayers. 🙏😇

[@themissingpeace7956]

The arms industry is focused on making expensive “toys” to make as much profit as possible.

[@bryanhoppe1481]

Defense contractors respond to requests for proposals based on requirements from the DoD.

[@kevinkant6817]

@@bryanhoppe1481and still can’t beat flip flop wearing goat herders

[@niilespunkari8832]

But how are the generals this stupid. What is it?

[@themissingpeace7956]

@@niilespunkari8832 Because they are promised cushy jobs in the arms industry after they retire. It's not stupidity, these "generals" are literally bought and paid for. They don't care about what's best for America, they only care about making money. Also in order to make it to the rank of general they have to be a "yes men". All of the thinking veterans who are Patriots and love this country remain at the rank of colonel for this reason. That's why you never see generals question the actions of the U.S. government, even if the consequences are disastrous for America's interests.

[@bryanhoppe1481]

@@kevinkant6817 Because that's the same thing.

[@silveriorebelo2920]

a formiiiiidable aaassssset - rather, a sitting duck, as all experts recognize

[@superskullmaster]

As a F-35 production worker I cannot confirm or deny the issues, but I will say, we went from 124 a year at my plant to 98 for this year. Take it how you will.

[@AvocadoAfficionado]

Sounds like you built 98 more F35s than anyone you'll ever get into a fight with.

[@BravoCheesecake]

Weird, I work at Fort Worth as well and I'm seeing units being pumped out faster than ever. Block 4 was expected to cause delays but TR-3 is fully rolled out in all facilities that I know of.

[@VeritasKonig]

Seems to me that the actual combat ready numbers are far conservative than the brags by either countries. Better than the SU-57 numbers though?

[@ViceCoin]

Got to fly to fight.

[@ViceCoin]

​No job cuts?

[@gorethegreat]

As ever a calming and knowledgable commentary on cutting edge aircraft procedures, engineering and maintenance issues.

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

I'm seeing a ton of parallels between the US military today and Germany's in WW2. A lot of exceptional equipment that may well not perform anywhere near where we'd expect looking at the stats.

[@johnt6213]

I worked for a microprocessor company where we added new architecture to an existing architecture using a brand new design on a new technology using a new design flow. Guess how well that went.

[@lohikarhu734]

preventive maintenance: i developed a system for helicopters in the North Sea, to monitor many critical points in engines, transmission, operating loads, chip sensors, oil temps and pressures, all loaded into non-volatile memory for ground station evaluation, plus, on-board real-time evaluation of engine and transmission peak and over-range conditions with "service soon" and "land ASAP" indications... in 1986, with development cost

[@arkadious9320]

if you are an engineer then you would know the difference in tech between a helo in the 80s and a 5th gen acft is extreme and more difficult to accomplish.

[@robertkalinic335]

​@@arkadious9320 Please dude, these planes are probably 20 years backwards with their electronics. Dont make it sound like there are nanobots swirling somewhere in the gas tank.

[@lohikarhu734]

Conceptually, little different... engines, oil flowing around, temperatures and RPMs that are critical, fuel temperature, loads and stresses The electronics in the aircraft are supposed to be redundant and self-analytical, so...

[@acceptablecasualty5319]

​@@robertkalinic335No, he has a point. Modern Jets are different beasts. Radar systems alone are exceptionally difficult to service. I could go on about other maintenance points, like the actively cooled turbine blades, but you should get the idea.

[@Nerthos]

The critical problem in your method is that it costs

[@paulnevins]

No wonder a F-35 engineer threatened me and a cruise last year when he overheard me talk with a retired Air Force captain about Fat Amy.

[@jkl9984]

It's not only the ugly duckling of the F-series of combat jets, but it's also a black hole for funding.

[@CROM-on1bz]

And to paraphrase the concept of the black hole, we are only at the event horizon.😢😢

[@niilespunkari8832]

It is the Wasa ship of modern era.

[@CROM-on1bz]

@@niilespunkari8832 Yes, too. Or the white elephant, extremely expensive and not very useful.😏😏

[@robertroth3930]

F-35 is truly the King Tiger of combat aviation. Impressive . . . when you can get it moving. So undetectable, invincible, and generally badass that the U.S. Air Force doesn't dare to operate them in Russian-controlled airspace. The benchmark of boondoggles.

[@Graeme-r2f]

The F35 entered service nearly 10 years ago, hopefully the teething issues get sorted soon🙄

[@matsv201]

I think its 15 years for the navy version.

[@fallencrow6718]

@@matsv201 Its the coating still rotting away in under 7 months?

[@DIREWOLFx75]

"hopefully the teething issues get sorted soon" Don't worry... It will be fixed 5 minutes before the plane is taken out of service. Probably.

[@bjorntorlarsson]

It seems like much of NATO's strategy is based on 'Hope'. Like: *"We 'hope' that the Russians have run out of ammo now, so CHARGE!!!"*

[@osuk1]

It is a cash cow especially in peace time.😊💩🤡

[@dellawrence4323]

You must have the cleanest carpet on the planet with your Roomba running all the time.

[@Jimbo4575]

Funny Israel doesn't seem to have any issues keeping the F-35 in action. I am old enough to remember these same stories with the F117 and F-16

[@Millennium7HistoryTech]

We don’t know Israeli statistics

[@SAMARTBO]

Israel they don't follow the rules, they may hack the hardware or customize it

[@b.nichols3255]

J IT is great in theory. In reality - transport and delivery factors make us a nightmare.

[@Kevin.S.Birdwell]

Nordic countries should invest in Swedish 6th generation...

[@futte8024]

That's an opinion. But is it realistic considerd that the Nordic countries count less than 30 million taxpayers?

[@yxmichaelxyyxmichaelxy3074]

Exactly why the Soviets taught them how to make the engines for a price. Too unstable for their own use so they gave up. Not on the engines, but the plane.

[@nerdwwii8081]

JIT is the cornerstone of failure in human military history: logistic does not care about your time.

[@brucecaron2776]

Canada will determine the type of plane it is when they fly it continuously for over 10,000 miles across the country in temperatures ranging from -40 to +40 degrees. They will uncover all the issues, I can assure you that they will report every problem it has.

[@robmx2324]

The F-35s electronics is so advanced, The Aircraft Technicians need an IT degree to work on them

[@chrissmith7669]

It’s about to get an order of magnitude more advanced and complicated when block 4 is fully online. Getting scary advanced AI

[@nikolaideianov5092]

Modern fighters are getting too complex A country will never be able to afford enough of those new fangled f86s to fight modern air combat /s

[@MilitaryTechNerd006]

Block IV F35s in 2025 -> 2029 or beyond is crazy

[@robmx2324]

The USAF wants brand new F-16s. Cheaper, better, and affordable to go into combat. LOL.

[@chrissmith7669]

@@robmx2324 the Air Force needs a low cost partner to the F-35 as the f-16 was the low cost fighter to the f-15 air superiority. The Air Force is missing that today.

[@jerrycube6244]

I don’t think anyone is looking at this for what it is. I think JIT is a feature for the US not a problem. The F22 was never sold to even the US’s best allies. The F35 eclipses the F22 is many technological areas. The USA learned from Iran that your best friend is only one revolution away from becoming your worst enemy. The F14 and phoenix missile was sold to Iran when it was still arguably the world’s most impressive fighter/interceptor with world leading BVR capabilities. What made Iran’s F14’s nearly useless? Lack of parts. By constraining parts availability the USA ensures the F35 won’t pose a long term threat if friendships fall apart…

[@piotrd.4850]

Amen to that. And unlike F-14 which Iran made impressive job maintaining in at least flying shape, you can't count on advances in technology allowing to just 'make parts' for F-35.

[@kris8165]

I watched GAO report on the F 35 on the Andrei Martyanov's channel months ago...He is pretty much biased,but everything he said was pretty much spot on! When he talks about the prepairness and combat readiness of the United States,I mean! Not good, not good at anything! In the War, logistics is everything! Greetings from Croatia 😎

[@aramisone7198]

And still the US has a giant unessecery budget but this is truly insane especially the part where it says "lack of spare parts on deployments" ..oh good they are shipping us of to a war or something and we cant fly.

[@kris8165]

In Russia and China,the State controls everything connected to the military production,in the United States,and other Western nations,the weapon production is often in the hands of the Private Companies! Literally ! Everyone,do a quick Google search of the who owns the Lockheed Martin ,and EVERYTHING becomes soo clear! Owned by the Management funds! National defense shouldn't be owned by the Private Entities! But, what do I know 😅

[@omarjassar4650]

The F-35 has been grounded after sneaking out at night to a party and getting drunk

[@AnotherBeardGuy]

I actually was involved in designing the F-35 and everything you say is absolutely correct. We actually knew about all these issues ahead of time and repeatedly brought them up during designing sessions, but there was a general sitting in the corner reading a newspaper that would always shoot down our solutions to these foreseeable problems. Even though we were the best engineers and logistics planners in the world, everyone kept telling us to make it worse or create more problems because, according to one politician, "I don't change my car's oil and it will still work. Planes work like that, too, right?". It is such a shame. PS - That setup looks super cool! I hope your 7 year old son doesn't mind playing outside while you record these amazing videos in his room!

[@fugehdehyou]

Yeh sure bud. Just by writing this comment you would be express posted to a black site

[@AmirShafeek]

I'm sure this is very true. Cmon guys you can have a love for aviation without lying

[@v3es473]

I am sure you were.

[@jeffparry2754]

​@fugehdehyou true, I signed a lot of nda's leaving the service. I know if I ever gave specifics I would either dissappear or be in jail. No online comment would be worth risking that

[@AnotherBeardGuy]

@@fugehdehyou ;)

[@Tomkinsbc]

I remember a number of years ago, the the F 35 was rated at around 75% available rate. That sounds about right during the time that Spire or something like that was mocking the F 35

[@GLOBOLG]

Seems to me that it will be far far more effective for small countries to put more effort on drones. Since today's aircraft are but a vector to launch missiles, a small drone with good sensors and radar would be much mor efficieny. Smaller, harder to detect, harder to bring down, cheaper ie. larger numbers. You could do away with all the sensor integration and combat awareness , at least reduce it to a minimum, since no pilot is there to be aware... Sure , a remote pilot might get some benefits from all the data, and of course, a centralized system (a king of AWACS) would also, but keep it real. FFsake, just the cost of a friggin f35 helmet can buy a number of dumb shaed type drones... So. Make it a good remote control or mission tasked drone, with enough sensors to keep it safe and send back info, small, high flying, capable of carrying a couple of missiles or glide bombs, some stelth to further reduce signature, and build it in numbers. And don't make it a retrofitting program, just iterate... Older generations would become just less effective to the point they could be used as bait or decoy and be used in the first waves to deplete countermeasures. Just keep building them better and cost controlled and saturate the sky. Of course you can't do away with manned fighters, but keep those expensive assets at a minimum while having options...

[@GenghisX999]

The adversaries are way ahead of you on this. They have two seat stealth fighters where 2nd pilot control the swarm loyal wingman drones. Some are recon, some are decoys, some carry weapons, etc. They are very advanced on this.😢

[@GLOBOLG]

@@GenghisX999 Yes. You're right. But that's a scenario of near peer confrontation. All gen6 air platforms are developing this central decisor/swarm commanding capability. That's not my point. I'm talking countries with small air force/fewer resources or under duress (Ukraine for example) can't (or shouldn't) spend billions on star wars platforms like 6th gen aircraft and all the minions attached. I'm just saying that there are effective ways to deliver weapons using assimetric warfare. Recent ukr strikes into Russian territory prove this. A small drone flying high can often penetrate airspace undetected and proving to be a dilema to take down. If you can make 100.000$ dollar drones that might need a million dollars Patriot missiles to bring down, you can deploy 20 on one target knowing that the adversary will spend at least two missiles salvos on each attacking drone. And mind you I'm not talking suicide drones, but weapons carrying ones. They won't need to get much close to the target, just enough to launch.

[@GenghisX999]

@@GLOBOLG When you are fighting third world powers like DS1 or DS2, it doesn’t matter too much. Countries like Ukraine use drones to hit non defended civilian targets. Basically terrorism. These drones would stand no chance against military facility. You do not need million $ SAM to shoot down drones. Russian EW has proven very effective in taking down 80 to 90% of AFU drones. Rest can be shot down with manual firearms or radar guided machine gun cannons. Laser/particle beams are also being tested currently as drone defense. Drones have been big threat in Ukraine war as it was a new weapon system. In war a counter is always eventually developed. Just a matter of how quickly. It has been quick in the Ukraine war. The Russians have a counter to every NATO wonder weapon deployed thus far. Will the vaunted “stealth” be the next domino to fall?

[@kaunas888]

I have though the exact same thing.

[@nukerock2451]

These are excellent points - thank you for the video. Note regarding the availability of F-35, I remember a TV documentary from the late 1970s or early 80s (??) that the F-15 was nicknamed "The Hangar Queen" at the time largely because of problems with its cutting-edge avionic systems. I think readiness of that aircraft (variant??) was

[@johnshackford]

F-35's have been in service for awhile now they've had plenty of time to iron out the bugs. Want to know why the Air Force bought the F-15EX. it was to make up for the shortcomings of the F-35 they are replacing their F-15c's with F-15EX Kadena will be the first overseas base to get them. Corporate generals in the Pentagon stuck the services with an overpriced lemon and they know it. As for the supply chains it's the number one critique made by foreign operators of the F-35. But then again what did they expect with a fighter whose parts are made in like 13 different countries.

[@barrybecker3706]

Thanks!

[@Millennium7HistoryTech]

Thank you!

[@danalotzgesell538]

Bravo, Sir. Nobody seems to ever really be prepared for real war. Dana

[@Mastakilla91]

It will always remain a turd. The problem starts with the design and ends with low availability in real life. All the superior tech it offers wont outweigh the exorbitant cost it generates.

[@OneMoreDesu]

Just wanted to say that I think Otis is a great character

[@ai-aniverse]

I didnt realize a whole channel could be based on copium. Amazing.

[@calamitist]

I entirely forgot about the logistics behind maintenance a fleet of 1 thousand of f35, This basically proves that the f35 is more of a power projection, while f18, f15 and f16 are much more reliable for actual combat

[@tripcee3367]

"so what is the F35's mission?" "It's mission is to spend money." Quoting Pierre Sprey in a CBC Canada interview.

[@avroarchitect1793]

Sprey the man who kept claiming to be part of programs he never had a hand in and every time he quoted a source that said so, if you track it back, he was the source in question. He was a conman and a liar. Not to mention suspected to be on the Russian payroll.

[@tripcee3367]

@@avroarchitect1793 that may be true. I don't know. It doesn't, although, make that statement untrue.

[@avroarchitect1793]

@@tripcee3367 Sprey spent his entire career talking out of his ass and sugesting things like using unencrypted radios in fighter planes and removing the radar. Anything he said about any aircraft program was a waste of air and is to be discarded with prejudice. The F-35 is expensive because of what we need it to do all at the same time. Stealth is expensive, next gen radars are expensive, datalink integration is expensive, and more. All of these things are critical to winning a modern air war where advanced integrated air defence systems, and modern AA and Air to air missiles are EVERYWHERE. Now throw drones and near per nations building their own advanced aircraft with modern radars and stealth into the mix. The legacy 4th gen aircraft (like the Gripen, F-16, F-18, Etc.) are relegated to missile trucks and can only get so close without immediately getting blasted out of the air.

[@tripcee3367]

@@avroarchitect1793 cool story, I would read all that but don't want to argue with an internet expert.

[@avroarchitect1793]

@@tripcee3367 TLDR. Sprey is a fraud and not to be trusted in any way. And the rest is why the F-35 is the way it is and how the legacy designs are junk in a modern fight unless backed by it or other stealth aircraft.