Fact Check: The Real Deal Behind Carbon Fiber 3D Printers - 2023

[@jean-francoisaubriot8512]

The primary objective is to design a printer capable of sustaining an enclosure temperature above 100 degrees Celsius. Concurrently, it's essential that the printer's internal mechanical components (such as the linear gear and belt) can withstand this heat. Additionally, the printer must effectively manage thermal expansion

[@VisionMiner]

Correct! You're really building an oven at that point, when water will boil inside just from the air...

[@WaffleStaffel]

Wow, the guy on the left seems like a real joy to be around.

[@keith5790]

he's so annoying 😂

[@toddy9141]

Yea what’s with his roll eyes, talking about two fingers up to the home consumer. They forget, we all started with zero knowlage I’ve come from a single e3v2 to 2 sovol sv01 pro’s and now have 2 qidi xmax 3’s, and learning every time. So VM dude on the left, stop coming across as almighty than thou!

[@darklordstudio]

@@toddy9141 Tell me about it? All he needs now, is a monocle.

[@mrfawkes9110]

@@toddy9141 The qidi xmax 3 is a nice printer, but it's still inadequate for the topic of discussion. Dude may be a stick in the mud but he's talking about a professional production environment for high grade engineering polymers, not high end enthusiast equipment.

[@toddy9141]

@@mrfawkes9110the xm3 can do nylonCF, yes it’s a high end consumer printer, but it has an active heated chamber, that’s capable of doing a few of the materials being mentioned. My point is home users are now able to do more (with the correct consumer printer) at home. The dude as I say, comes across as a snob, rather talking so negatively, he should be promoting consumer printers that’s capable of the materials mentioned, don’t forget there’s loads of hobbyists looking at going the next step and seeking information, and this dude is saying you need to spend thousands on a industrial printer…you don’t if you just want to move up a step at home or small unit. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not totally disagreeing with them, they hold a lot lot more knowlage than myself, but they could maybe suggest consumer units for home users…..but maybe that’s for another discussion on a different vid.

[@Sleepery22]

I managed to print the most of high temp materials including PEEK and PEI Ultem 9085 & 1010 on my (heavily modified) Creality CR-10 without heated chamber. Here are my advices for low-budget enthusiast like myself: - Keep the prints low (as VM guys suggested) - my tallest print was 5cm - Ramp up build plate temperature (+20-30C above specified) - get a AC bed heater - Use PEI metal bed with Nano Polymer Adhesive - All metal hotend (no PTFE anywhere) with at least 60w heater - Remove all unnecessary electronic parts from printing area (touch sensors, cameras, etc) - You can use UV heat lamps (for lizards) to add a bit of temperature on part - Use Flame Retardent sheets under and around printer, and monitor the process all the time

[@fjlaboratories]

I recently got a sample of Essentium’s HTN CF25 but I noticed on the TDS that it only recommends 250-270C with a chamber of 20-40C. Would love to know about the discrepancy between their TDS and your results with it!

[@atherisgreen1391]

Dude on the left looked and sounded like he took this whole conversation VERY seriously LoL

[@jeffreydutra]

Impossible Objects CBAM25 is a game changer but similar issue to markforged continuous fiber printing as its a closed system. They will change the whole industry if they opened the platforms.

[@TheRealAirdoo]

I think I saw somewhere that Impossible Objects is open to working with different substrates and polymers.

[@MikeZ8709]

They had a MarkForged at a place I worked. It was the first 3D printer I ever used. It was the size of a microwave so I figured it went for 3-4 grand. HA! $20,000 or better! Idk which model it was but it was continuous filament as shown here at 1:00. Parts from that machine were very strong and clean, not bumpy.

[@GuyH77]

Appreciate you sharing your experience, when you talk about a printer that can do high temp then name them! Even if they're the ones you sell. Name the ones you don't as well.... That's how you get a good open debate on this subject.

[@mikejackson9585]

If I'm 100% honest, you guys are coming across a little bit high temp snobbish. I know that's not the intent, but it does come across that way. When I look through the comments, I understand why you lose your patience answering questions about Ender 3's printing PEEK. I get it. But I'd bet a lot of the people watching your videos don't ever intend on using, let alone buying a printer in the true high temp category. Personally, I watch to know what is out there and simply get exposed to the high temp theories and sponge up your experience. Stuff like the very simple, but super obvious test printing in a single test section, I picked up from you guys. That wouldn't be hard to figure out on my own, but you saved me the hassle of wasting my time and money to figure it out. Just be aware, I'd bet a ton of your viewers are like me and might get turned off by the inference. Again I get it, aside from the annoyances, its a business for you guys and selling your product is the name of the game. I'd probably just figure out how to do that without squatting over the viewers. Sorry if that came across harsh (not the intention), I'm still on Team VM, just had to say something.

[@noelsteele]

you sound like a snob

[@yalmadiable]

Thanks guys, from industrial users like me I’m interested to see your printers outcome like showing real parts with different sizes and geometry to see your printers quality. The specs and talking about technicalities are not enough. Showing examples is the best way. So in my case I would love to have a farm using CF for printing robotics shells and structures like UGVs , quadcopter etc. the appearance of the final product is so important also. I would like to see your printer work in printing parts that has appearance not small mechanical parts only but structures that will carry stress and aerodynamic loads. Thanks guys

[@timothymusson5040]

For us DIY folks that only know Creality and such brands, what are some good brands of $6k-$7k machines that do high temp for real? In case someone is looking to start a business, or needs serious structural components, etc.

[@ThunderBird80085]

The next step for reinforcing commodity and engineering polymers is definitely nano clays and the % volume needed to add is less than 5% for the significant bump in both young's modulus and UTS. Far cheaper than any fiber process too on the basis of cheap nano clay production and addition to the polymer in filament processing.

[@santiagoblandon3022]

I wonder at what point you'd be better off (as a hobbyist) buying a CNC that can mill aluminium instead of spending 7k+ on a high temp printer. I think most of the applications where you need the properties of aluminium have shapes that can be milled on a 2.5, and in the rare cases you do have a very complex geometry that can't be made any other way... well... that's what companies like Vision Miner are for

[@VisionMiner]

Yep, that's why we're here! Often, also, conductivity or corrosion/chemical resistance, or lubrosity come into play. Metal is great for many things, especially strength and temperature resistance, but when you get some acids or electricity in there, it's not always an option :) You can CNC many plastics, too, but geometry comes into play -- also, waste material, speed, machine setup, etc -- a lot of times 3D Printing will be easier. Low volume runs usally throw injection molding costs out the window, too...

[@mjodr]

For me it comes down to noise. My FDM printer is quiet. For as much as I would love to DIY my own CNC and start doing traditional subtractive manufacturing, I don't want to hear a damn mill all day. I don't have a dedicated room for it.

[@hayden9944]

I print 0.6 from a 0.4 nozzle. I print 0.8 with a 0.6 nozzle. Makes the parts allot stronger - top tip Im an engineer in a professional industry and we print ABS and PCTG for excellent production parts and we don’t need a heated chamber because we don’t need to use those materials (yet)

[@parallelsandtangents938]

Forgive me for my dumb please, but what do you mean you print .6 from a .4 nozzle? I am sincerely interested in understanding this technique to get better quality parts.

[@VisionMiner]

I believe he means using an extrusion width of 0.6mm, but doing it from a 0.4mm nozzle -- you can adjust this in settings, and depending on nozzle geometry (sharp tip vs flat spot around orifice), this often works VERY well!

[@parallelsandtangents938]

@@VisionMiner Thanks so much for your quick response. I'm a bit of a newb in the FDM 3d printing game. I recently got myself a flsun v400 and then moded it with a nice on frame enclosure as well as chamber heating components. I'm currently trying to upgrade certain parts to make it nylon print friendly so I can print propellers for my kayak pedal drive. So I'm always crumb munching any data and techniques I can to produce better parts.

[@hayden9944]

@@parallelsandtangents938 - VM clarified for me! But if u think about what the plastic is doing when u push 0.6 out of 0.4 nozzle it will force the plastic to flow outwards and be squashed or ironed by the nozzle. This really helps with getting those layers to fuse together as the plastic is under more pressure + the temp of the nozzle + more mass of hot plastic. All helps with strength. If u have any other questions fire on here and I will try to answer.

[@parallelsandtangents938]

@@hayden9944 thanks, I certainly will.

[@tistick]

I'm a newbie interested in 3d printing, especially PEEK. Is 3d printing PEEK parts legit? I would think layer adhesion would be a huge issue. Especially like you said, the further you get away from the bed. I'd think you'd want the chamber around 400f +.

[@thesuperjed1]

PEEK, with or without carbon fiber has by FAR the best interlayer adhesion of any filament type, and I have tried most materials available. I have an Intamsys Pro 410 that only achieves a stable chamber temp of 70C, and interlayer adhesion (as well as most other properties) is phenomenal with PEEK. High temp nylon with carbon fiber is not even in the same league as PEEK with carbon fiber (3DX Tech PEEK+ 10%CF). The HTN I have tried has had the worst interlayer adhesion of pretty much any material I have printed with, even worse than basic materials such as PLA and PETG. Looks great, but basically as strong as a sandcastle... As the guys said, carbon fiber mainly increases stiffness, but some other HUGE benefits are that it also reduces warping and increases overhang angle. EG: Printing at 0.1mm layer height, natural PEEK (aka: no carbon) I can print overhangs of approx 50 degrees without sagging, but with carbon you can print to 80 degrees without issue. Downside is that PEEK costs about 10x that of nylon, and 20x that of materials like PLA and PETG. Also you need a hot-end that can go to 440C to effectively print PEEK. My go to material when I'm paying is PETG without carbon fiber, but occasionally with carbon fiber. There's a reason why all the Prusa printers are built using the stuff, and that's because it's fantastic!

[@tistick]

Thank you for the reply, very informative. I'm pleasantly surprised to hear the adhesion is great.

[@yalmadiable]

One more thing to add, MJF, SLS are headache free when it comes to printing quality and temperatures etc, it’s all controller by the machine it self you only need to worry about your design :)

[@donmiller6891]

I use Polymaker's Nylon 6 carbon fiber. It is very hygroscopic, must be dry, and needs to be waterproofed immediately after printing, but I can't find any other material with a tensile strength >100 Mpa with a hot end less than 300 and a bed temp less than 100. The carbon fibers in this filament significantly increase tensile strength, flex mod, and also minimize warping. If you guys know of another filament with similar mechanical properties that can be used on consumer machines I would love to hear about it.

[@mjodr]

I'd like to know as well. I'm considering upgrading all my parts from ASA to PC, but trying not to forget about nylon or other options.

[@bentracy7463]

Luvocom PAHT-CF 9742 BK is a great material that will outperform Polymaker PA6-CF in most metrics. It's a little more difficult to track down (I'm running into that issue myself since eSUN just stopped selling it), but it prints easily and produces extremely strong parts, especially for being right on the edge of low-temp materials. It's sort of the bridge between normal PA-CFs and PPA-CFs in my mind. Their PAHT 9891 variant is a little "lower spec" in most regards but is also a fair bit easier to find depending on your requirements.

[@Underp4ntz_Gaming_Channel]

Mine goes 650c and ~200 chamber . do i have high temp or ultra temp? I get the frustrations in the industry but your collegue should be bit more positive in the video, he seems really angry xD

[@travistucker7317]

He just had a week long print fail

[@Coolfwip]

Guy on the left seems like he's had to explain carbon fiber on sales calls 28x today lol This video has decent information but it's lost in the attitudes/mannerisms

[@BennyTygohome]

Agreed. I believe real reason for his attitude, they are trying to cast shade on bambu x1c, Creality, k1 max pulse xe. , Prusa etc. Reason is because they are beginning to hype their new 22idex high temp -oven- printer and they know they'll need to justify it's price compared to those others

[@noelsteele]

@@BennyTygohomeWrong. Their printer isn't even in the same price category as the others mentioned. They are merely sharing their knowledge. The 22idex starts off at $15,000. You just need to be less offended by your betters.

[@peppersadventure]

The carbon is for the damn carbon rods, not that it can print CF.

[@baraBober]

I've learned something! Good video, thank you

[@oskarelmgren]

Is a heated bed and a thermally insulated chamber good enough? Or do the chamber walls actually need to be heated?

[@VisionMiner]

Like say, it depends on the parts, geometry, and exact material. For some parts, yes, that will be more than enough -- for others, having the entire chamber heated is critical. It's not the walls, per say, but the entire chamber air.

[@perrinsilveira6759]

The chamber temp you are looking for for most materials is around 40C less than its glass transition range so you have headroom for the material to cool fast enough it doesn't anneal, but warm enough so you don't have insane internal stresses/warpage. So for pla, that is ~10-20C, petg is ~40C, abs is ~60C, Nylon has a huge glass transition range and huge variation between types of nylon, meaning you can get away with a lot, but 60C works for most and no HTN isn't nylon and this does not apply. A decent passive chamber with good circulation can get ~60C, 70C is the highest I have heard. So POM and PC are out of range, as is the rest of the typical high temp gang. For some of the higher temp stuff the 40C less breaks down and I would look at injection molding mold temps as that industry is a lot more developed even if their online documentation is bad.

[@lethaldonkey]

I’m printing good size parts in my Bambu Labs with Stratasys Nylon CF that we use at work on our F900

[@VisionMiner]

HAH! That's awesome, how does it handle the difference in diameter?

[@fjlaboratories]

Sheesh. How much does that filament cost?

[@lethaldonkey]

@@VisionMiner it’s actually pretty good. I made my coworker some parts for his kayak with a 0.6mm Nozzle. I haven’t tried the 0.8mm but the 0.4mm works as well. Even our Systems integration test engineers who gave me the Stratasys filament were very surprised lmao! They started to give me everything they use to try out like PC, ABS-M30, SR100, SR30, PC Support and Nylon. They gave me some 9085 and 1010 as a joke but I took it anyways. One day I’ll buy a “TRUE” high temp printer. Even the Raise3D printers we have struggle to print the Nylon CF and PC filaments in my ME group.

[@lethaldonkey]

@@fjlaboratories I think they go for around $400 to $500 a canister from my google searches lol

[@RepairNReport]

i tried to set up my ender 3 to print cf nylon. micro swiss direct drive and an enclosure tent the whole 9. huge amount of time spent for something that was never going to work lol. figuring out the firmware alone was a massive headache and made it not worth the time lol. spend the money and get the right machine

[@nicksheldon3434]

What are your thoughts on the Qidi Tech X-Plus 2? I picked one up a few months ago and have been testing their PA12+CF filament. Hobby level but wanting to create functional parts for low volume sales online.

[@VisionMiner]

We've heard great things about it, seems to be great! The question much of the time is.... is that PA12 really PA12? Or an additive-stuffed polymer blend?

[@steve5nash]

so what printer would you recommend?

[@BennyTygohome]

They're casting shade on competition because in July this company is releasing their new high temp 22idex printer and i think it's going to be a little expensive.

[@markmalonson7531]

Use molds and disolvable filament printed structures with vacume bagged carbon fiber or baked pre preg carbon fiber sheet composite.

[@grantdeisig1360]

I disagree that CF in PLA is pointless. It definitely adds stiffness and allows for better overhangs. But it is exceptionally brittle. I use CF PLA when I need something to be as stiff as possible but not be worried about it being subject to impacts. This video reminds me of a time when my buddy told me he was getting a "metal 3D printer" for $1000, and I told him: "no your not." To which he assured me that he new what he was talking about and proceeded to show me the listing online. I just laughed... It was an FDM printer with a "metal" frame, body and parts. Clever advertising from China... Made him almost buy it thinking it printed metal. (Idiot)

[@VisionMiner]

You're correct -- and yes, exceptionally brittle :D It also looks really really nice, while still being ridiculously easy to print. LOL -- metal 3D printer! And on another note, technically every FDM machine is a metal printer, since there are metal filaments which can be sintered afterwards for solid metal parts, and they're just PLA infused with Metal Injection Molding powders....

[@grantdeisig1360]

@@VisionMiner Yup, I thought about that. You are correct. I've never experimented with metal infused filament (for sintering) myself. Looks dimensionally tricky. I have used Proto Pasta's Steel PLA, not for sintering of course. But I like the weight it adds, and you can polish it to give it a shine.

[@chicoxiba]

To me the price of these better filaments also is in the equation. I am finding that I can design my parts better and use the usual suspects... Yes Im just a little guy with a bambu. And I love the candid talk! keep it up guys thank you for the insights always have learned lots here.

[@SirSpence99]

I actually almost worked at continuous composites. I have a friend who worked with them in the early stages of their development. I haven't seen their progress in the last couple years but last I saw, they had serious problems with the filament "fraying" as it was printing, leading to very spiky parts. That said, mechanically, you would be hard pressed to get stronger than their setup because they had the ability to print some objects with a single, continuous line of of fiberglass or carbon fiber. (I never saw them using aramid but that might have been because they just didn't, not because of capability.)

[@fredcastor1]

these guys always discourage me on printing

[@toddy9141]

Qidi xmax3 heated chamber upto 65° Comes with low and high temp hot ends. There’s affordable “consumer” printers that can and are doing what’s needed for CF. I agree with the other users, you are coming across a bit snobbish, and like it’s an exclusive club you’re in, and 2 fingers up to the hobbyist for giving cf a go.

[@teknorath]

Dude on the right looks like Shroud got a job XD

[@KellyBC]

I was just about to write a very similar thing to what Mike Jackson wrote. I get that your particular business model revolves around this sort of printing, but you are talking about consumer level printers and how they don’t do what you do. Those printers do have a place in the market though. I do think that they are playing up the CF side in a way that the uninformed could be misled and that probably should be spelled out in an informative way. But I think you could have probably done a better job of getting the information out there without getting on the high temp high horse. I mean you have the aluminum casting guys looking down at you saying 400C is that all - hah, then they have the brass folks, and then there is the direct metal laser melting group . . .

[@juankast26]

Why ia they guy on the left so upset😂

[@aware2action]

Very Well explained👍. What about epoxy casting with impregnated woven carbon fiber or fiberglass sheets? May not be suitable for all designs, also might involve pre/post processing. More like a poorman's impossible objects printer(in some aspects), but insanely cheaper. May be, you can use the good ol 3d printer, to just make the master, for a silicone mold! For one off prototypes, 3D printing makes sense, but definitely falls short for low/med volume production. After all, what 3d printer can print with continuous CF filament, woven on demand into CF fabric(None).Just some 💭

[@stevencullen6261]

As far as i can tell the micro fiber carbon fiber that's in pla and what not is an anti wear instead of anti break think of a shaft going back and forth in a channel the wear on the channel and the shaft is what it resists

[@spinnetti]

Use the right tool for the job. People get too myopic thinking 3d printing is the answer to everything.

[@volksbugly]

Love this one! :)

[@BennyTygohome]

I believe real reason for guy on lefts attitude, they are trying to cast shade on bambu x1c, Creality, k1 max pulse xe, prusa etc but without naming them. Reason is because they are beginning to hype their new 22idex high temp -oven- printer and they know they'll need to justify it's price compared to those others

[@krstone0]

Good info but a lot of mean girl energy in this video. Can we get this again without all the attitude? lol

[@Archangel3083]

Instead of bagging on these other printers how about you take a few of them and print a test piece from each to be tested against one of your choosing. Let’s see if a carbon part from say an X1C fails before a part printed by a more expensive, higher temp one.

[@adamdabrowski3261]

Legends! No one does this better than yous guys!

[@alkiskaraolis8111]

What is the purpose of this video? I don't think anyone watching this believes PLA with carbon is strong and people that have consumer grade printers can't even afford 1000-5000.

[@BennyTygohome]

The guy on the left is so incredibly annoying. The best parts of the video are when he's overlayed with info graphics so we almost forget he's there.

[@urjnlegend]

We get it, you want to sell, but its so easy to mod a creality to run just about anything, especially cf nylon

[@j6077xxd]

Facts.

[@Mattxjax45]

'I have so many printers I have modified and failed..., I know what I am doing' Haha no I do not think so bud

[@Shynd]

Yeah for sure, you know better than someone who does this stuff professionally /s

[@Mattxjax45]

@@Shynd "Professional" Salesman goes, 'don't build, Buy! I know bc I am a failure!' Bet you ate that sh!t right up.

[@1Beetlegeuse]

What he is saying is saying is most of those consumer grade printers are gimmicks and they are. You can polish a turd and make up for its deficiencies but as most self proclaimed experts and tinkers on the average FB group will say is that it can take months or even years to become a proficient 3d printer. Because as everyone knows when you buy a commercial machine you spend months just trying to tune it and get it to print correctly? Desktop CNC is another gimmick. Take a look at a lot of them and you can see buy how they are built they'll barely be functional as a engraver. You won't be carving chunks of aluminium with them let alone steel. I bought a Guider 2s a couple years ago for printing motorcycle parts. It prints fine out of the box. 300 nozzle and 120 bed, with preheat the chamber gets to around 70c and I predominantly print ASA. Strong parts, dimensionaly accurate, look good, don't warp. Whats to improve? Yet the common comment is I need to chuck this in the bin because its not open source and go buy an Ender or something instead so I can modify it easily. Also they are spot on about CF. As someone who works with engineering materials including prepreg and wet layup CF, no 3D printing process with CF comes anywhere close to actual CF, hell it doesn't come close to fiberglass.

[@mjodr]

I think what he means is he loses interest in the project, kind of an ADHD moment maybe. Or he looks at all the parts he needs to buy, doesn't want to spend the money, doesn't want to fiddle with it, etc. I think he spends more than enough time at this job to probably not want to spend 100 hours modifying his little project printer at home. Like a mechanic's car or an IT guy's home computer, lol!

[@bentracy7463]

@@1Beetlegeuse well put. The guys who actually manage to build their own high temp machines are absolute madmen. I've seen a handful and they are so far beyond "modifying" any base printer worth starting with. Obviously don't know what his goals were for the modifications, but anything sufficiently in depth requires so much time in design and construction that it's rarely worth it over a purpose built machine. The exception being when your time isn't worth much (or as much), or if it's purely a hobby and have nothing on the line. At that point the limitation is your patience and how deep your pockets are :).

[@anthonywells563]

I made that Mistake about 7 months Ago, It was after my Dashboard was finished was when I took it of the Bed, CARBON FIBER PLA, What a IDIOT £35.00 wasted and what was left went in the Bin, LIVE and LEARN

[@overbuiltautomotive1299]

first i herd of this carbon 3D printer stuff is it from china?they got their own truth lol in specs ,like its when a product says Precision bearings ,well that means many things in china so firstly its a bearing so it has to be made in a Precision way so by default its Precision! no matter the material specs and it may or may not be any good to usebut you can stare at it 👺 1000 watts of out put power lol dead shorted may be.😻. just messed up

[@blockhead3654]

Funny because it's all plastic.