Failure to improve - Carbide Woodturning Tool follow up

Trying to improve on my last design and failed. Please post any suggestions on the KZbin comments so anyone watching can follow the discussion.
We have various carbide cutters for sale in our shop: www.jwwoodturni...
My Website: www.jwwoodturni...
Folksy page: folksy.com/sho...
Music: www.purple-plan...

[@monophoto1]

I've done my tools handles about the same way as you but with a few minor differences. 1. I use a start the hole using a small bit (often a 'center bit'),. That way, I'm sure the hole actually starts in the center of the blank. This is especially important when using a twist drill bit with the standard 118 deg grind - they reed a serious dimple rather than a pencil or awl mark to center properly. 2. I also use a shorter bit. Log bits can flex, and that aggravates the tendency to follow grain boundaries resulting in an angled hole. 3. Tailstock play can also be a complication. When I'm doing a precision hole, I start the lathe before bringing the bit up to the blank. With the blank rotating, slide the tailstock up until the bit just touches the wood. If you have a dimple rather than a mark, the bit will naturally center itself. Then, tighten the tailstock. Following that sequence assures that the tailstock is actually aligned with the headstock axis. 4. To get a clean, straight hole, you need the blank rotating fast enough, and the tailstock quill advancing slow enough for the tip of the bit to actually cut the hole before the body of the bit advances into that hole. If you advance the quill too rapidly, forcing the bit into the wood, there is a tendency for the bit to veer off center and follow a grain boundary. 5. Finally, after drilling the hole and installing the ferrule (the order of those two steps isn't critical), I finish the handle entirely BEFORE seating the steel in the hole. As a result I never notice if the axis of the steel isn't perfectly aligned with the axis of the handle. And if I don't know that its not perfect, I don't care that it's not perfect. It's just a handle.

[@briansinclair3967]

Same problem with mine. I just lined them up so they were straight and left it at that. They're for me so I don't stress it. Keep up the good work.

[@JWWoodturning]

+Brian Sinclair Thanks Brian, Like I said in the video I should just have claimed they were deliberately eccentric pieces. They feel fine to use and are regulars in my turning tools.

[@diehardnascar2002]

Drill the hole first using a smaller size bit as a pilot hole, then use your final (shorter drill) size bit. The longer the bit, the more chance for it to deflect.....then turn between centres & establish the tenon. This helps to ensure that everything will be centred

[@tom671310]

Hi Jake Enjoyed your video. I made my own tools also. The big difference was that I turned and finished the handles completely before inserting the metal bars. They came out great and I've made several for friends and fellow turners. Tommy Turner

[@JWWoodturning]

+Tom Cleveland Thanks Tom. You cant beat turning with tools you made yourself.

[@garyrobinson6175]

I would split the wood into long ways and then cut a dado or grove in both sides. Glue it back together and then form handle. Insert tool into square hole and glue with CA glue.

[@JWWoodturning]

+Gary Robinson This process would certainly helped with the handle alignment.

[@barrydewhirst3947]

Yes this would help alignment but do u realy want to split a tool handle?

[@larover90]

i have just watched a video on this take two bits of wood the same size to make the handle and rout a grove to the depth you want the tool to go into the handle so when you glue them together you get a square hole down it the same size as your tool and then turn your handle cheers Ian

[@JWWoodturning]

+ian mills I'm sure this would work fine. I just wanted to try a more traditional handle design, even though the tool itself is very modern.

[@yuvallahav]

I'm going with what Brad Neilsen said, I first grip my stock, I then drill (I go with final size right a way, too much work to drill a pilot hole!! (no it's not, you should do it that way...), then I turn the whole handle while using a live cone center for the hole side, so I know that I'm turning the handle in center with the hole.

[@yuvallahav]

Yuval Lahav Also, using a small Forstner bit instead of a drill will make a better hole in end grain then a wood drill bit!

[@glenwithrow9371]

Jake, I ground my square bar to round and used epoxy to hold in place, works fine. just be sure to drill small relief hole to let excess air and epoxy out. Keep the videos coming. Glen

[@JWWoodturning]

+Glen Withrow Nice. I love they way people are finding so many ways to make this simple but oh so useful tool.

[@brianbarlow1480]

Hi Jake, I thought your video making your own carbide tools was very good, even though you had some problems, however after watching your video I thought I would give it a go? After seeing the problems you had with aligning the steel bar into a round hole, I decided to opt for a round steel bar which worked great, I just drilled it out to fit the diameter of the steel, job done! Thanks for the idea it's a great saving, as I'd had just bought 3 for £70 before your video, so now I have made 3 more

[@JWWoodturning]

+Brian Barlow Happy to have motivated someone to make their own tools. The round bar sounds good but I like the stability of the square section against the tool rest. Thanks for sharing your idea.

[@KeithBarrowat54a]

Hi Jake, I made mine jut like Bill said,and they turned out great. If your steel bar was round it would probably have been okay,but knocking square steel into a round hole is going to give you trouble :)Cheers,Keith

[@JWWoodturning]

+Keith Barrow Glad to hear your tool making was a success. My issue was to do with not being able to bore a straight hole in the handle. The square peg in a round hole thing went very well and has left me with a solid connection. regardless of my issues I am still really pleased with these cutters and what they add to my range of options.

[@jsharvey1961]

Just use two pieces of wood to build the handle. Cut a groove with a router in each piece that is exactly one half the thickness of your square stock deep and exactly as wide as your square stock - make the groove just slightly longer than you want the bar to be in the handle. Put a cube of wood in the bottom of the grooves when you glue the handle together and make sure the edges of the hole line up exactly at the top. That way you know the bar will fit snug and true. Then just insert a square piece of wood into the hole so you can center the handle to turn it on a lathe. When you are done pull out the piece of wood and epoxy in the square bar.

[@JWWoodturning]

I agree this would work but I wanted a one piece handle. Stubborn I know but you have to try these things.

[@ron5935]

My radial arm saw has a chuck for horizontal boring. The drill press is a floor model so an upright jig could be made. I would bore the hole first from centers at both ends. Then I would round the square rod and epoxy in place. Also try 1x2 and cut dato for rod. then glue halves together

[@JWWoodturning]

Hi Ron, a good ideas, unfortunately my drill press is a bench top otherwise I would have tried using it but I suspect with long thin drill bits you will get the same issue of the bit heading of after the grain direction. If you check my latest video you can see my preferred solution which seems to have solved my problems.

[@josephseewald4687]

I am having very similar issues. I have made a significant improvement if I add a shallow kerf in the center of the blocks prior to glue up either at the table saw or router table. Then the lathe drive center\ dead center can round true. When drilling the kerf to final dimension the bit follows the path of least resistance ( kerf).

[@JWWoodturning]

Thansk for the idea Joseph

[@greg13531]

You can make a D-bit. Using spiral center point drills will not drill straight in wood over distance - as you found out. With a D-bit, you can drill very long holes with virtually no runout. Let me know if you still need more info.

[@JWWoodturning]

+Gg G I have not heard of D bits before, so time for me to do some snooping around the internet. Thanks for the heads up.

[@wdukes1327]

have you made sure the points on your headstock and tailstock are aligned? my experience: I double check points before long drilling. I also use an auger bit rather than a twist for anything over 3 or 4 inches. you can start the hole with a shorter bit, then go to the longer. I haven't found the need for it to be smaller just shorter. like others here I drill the hole, then add the ferule, then finish the handle, then insert the bar. haven't turned square to round, just rounded the corners and tapered the end a bit. enough epoxy will fill the gap. hope that's useful.

[@JWWoodturning]

+Will Dukes Thanks for that. I agree that checking headstock alignment is important and I try to check it whenever I rotate the headstock or do between centre turning so I'm pretty sure it was ok for the drilling. I think the drill sizing suggestions are spot on so . I put the ferrule on first as I was driving the bar into the handle to form a more traditional tool handle joint and I didn't want the handle to split. The ferrule gives something for the wood to push against. A glue joint would have been very workable but a modern solution to this tool mount which was not what I was looking for. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

[@jorgenandersen7556]

Start off with a short drill bit with a centre spur and start with the centre spur in your tail stock hole .I found that a forstner drill bit works great because of the large shank and centre point then switch over to the long drill bit .I have made many tools and they are less that .3 of a mm out of centre. A other trick I use is I have made a centre point which fits into the rotating tail stock and the diameter is equal to the drill hole size. Good Luck

[@JWWoodturning]

All good stuff, thanks Jorgen.

[@victorrussell6284]

This is how I do it and I've had no problems, so far. I drill the hole in the blank first, getting it as central and in line with the blank as I can. I then put a piece of steel rod the same diameter as the hole in the lathe. The end of the rod has a sharp "chisel" end to it so it "drives" the blank. The blank is then mounted on the rod in the lathe. I slowly turn it by hand and then bring the tail stock up. At this point although the blank may wobble all over the place the hole should be very close to central. I then turn the handle to shape. When I've made my carbide tools I turn the shanks from square to round which obviously helps ensure it ends up central in the handle. HTH.

[@JWWoodturning]

Thanks for that Victor. I'm still working on this method myself so all ideas are gratefully accepted.

[@woodturnerjosh]

The part of you drilling was sped up but it looked like it was wobbling from the beginning. When I start drilling I have the lathe going as fast as is safe and advance the drill very very slowly until the hole is established. Then I slow the lathe back down to a suitable drilling speed and wind the drill in a bit faster. If it still drills a bit off and I don't want to waste material I will remove the handle from the chuck and turn a jam fit dowel to go a couple of inches into the hole and then bring the tailstock up. This way the hole you drilled is running concentrically on the dowel you just turned and everything finishes up square and parallel. (if that makes sense)

[@JWWoodturning]

+woodturnerjosh Thanks Josh. That makes lots of sense.

[@bobcosenza7754]

Rough turn then drill the hole then finish turn while supporting the tail stock with the drilled hole for the tool shaft, using a shorter dill bit would also help

[@JWWoodturning]

+Bob Cosenza Thanks Bob, Both good suggestions.

[@eyeballe]

Hi, I'm new to your channel. I tend to make a pilot hole first, and use a shorter bit for the final hole diameter, then use a longer bit for the final length. long bits flex too much for my liking to use all in one go. I also use the tool rest under the ferrule as a steady (at slow speeds only).

[@JWWoodturning]

+Ian I agree that the long bit I used was too flexible. A pilot with a Forstner bit would have helped, then using the longer bit.

[@MrDancampbell60]

Hi Jake, I think you might get a better result with a "Lamp Auger" tool; it is a long tool that is inserted into your tail stock after removing the pointed center. The "Lamp Auger" will not tend to follow the grain like the long drill bits do. I believe Craft Supply sells them (not overly expensive). Good luck.

[@JWWoodturning]

+Dan Campbell Sounds like a good idea, I will have to investigate

[@rogercrook1639]

Just a thought. Is the head on your lathe able to take the metal? I think the problem is although you have drilled a hole the metalwork is using its corners to cut its way into the wood, so with you hitting the metalwork it only has to be a little off of true and the corners will cut its way into the handle. So what I was thinking is if you can hold the metal through the headstock, then is your tail stock clamp and screw able to push the handle onto the metalwork.

[@JWWoodturning]

+Roger Crook Its hard to know for sure, but I think the it was the hole boring not being straight that caused the problem. If the handle ever fails I will be able to check how well the rod followed the hole as it was hammered in and maybe added to the wobble. I was able to pass some steel into the chuck and clamp it, so it might be possible to do as you say and just push the rod in. Thanks. Jake.

[@waynerush5210]

Try cutting the blank in half length wise, then mill a channel the width of the shaft, but only half as deep to both halves on the router table. The length of the channel determine how far the metal shaft extends into the handle. You should end up with a square hole when the two are glued back together, and in the center of the stock. Turn the handle to personal preference.

[@JWWoodturning]

Several people have suggested this approach and I may use it in the future. On this occasion I wanted to have a one piece handle but I showed the issues I had end cutting the handle. Thanks for the feedback.

[@waynerush5210]

Yeah, I saw that, but after I left the comment. I too have the same problem(crooked shanks) with my tools. They may look crude to some, but they really work well for me. Luck! and thanx for the video... Utube... a marvelous thing! Be well.

[@JWWoodturning]

Yes KZbin is a great resource. The main reason I post videos is to give back to youtube as it helped me get started in turning and I love watching others for new ideas. The crooked bit dosen't bother me as the tools still work well.

[@lemans1924]

hi make up an adjustable steady rest tool, chech on ebsy for some designs, it assists on all long shaft turning

[@JWWoodturning]

+ian duff Thanks Ian. I will look into that.

[@josephdutton564]

I think you did a great job it’s homemade so it isn’t going to b pretty or perfect I have made the bar but my lathe isn’t big enough to use it to drill the handle, so the plan is to drill the hole then turn the handle then put it together Question: How do you know what size of copper pipe to use for the feral? Where did u get square bar I am having hell finding it to buy. Only can find round which I’m useing to make the first tools cuz that’s all I could find to buy

[@josephdutton564]

Also how much of the bar NEEDS to be in the handle you did say something like 1/3 is that all?

[@JWWoodturning]

Hi Joseph, the copper pipe was what I had laying around. The square bar was bought from eBay, i Think there are several people who will sell you it in short lengths. Hope that helps.

[@JWWoodturning]

Bar was 30cm with 10cm in the handle.

[@tompalmer334]

i use a forester bit 1/2 inch bar requires a 5/8 hole 3/8 bar a 1/2 hole drill as long as required don't pound in the bar however use glue to secure drill a hole mid way to release pressure just a tiny hole in the side of the handle just a small one i finish the handle outside prior to bar placement you shouldn't have any problems

[@JWWoodturning]

+Tom Palmer Thanks Tom, Another good suggestion to add to the list. I had no idea it was such a long list. Keep em coming.

[@BrianTaylorMRM]

Just a thought re ferrule fitting. Turn down close to size and then camfer the end with a small taper. Remove tailstock and try ferrule for size. It will leave a rub mark at the correct diameter which will make it easier to do final cut. (Ane also keep the handle at original length....) Going o make myself one of these. Thanks for the video.

[@JWWoodturning]

Hi Brian. The rub method you described can definitely help in getting a good fit in situations like this. Hope the build goes well.

[@voyager8195]

Hi Is it the way you banged in the metal as I was always taught to hit the end of the handle and shaft goes in pretty straight? Just a thought.

[@JWWoodturning]

+voyager8195 Maybe i'll have to do a post mortem on the handle to confirm whether or not the shaft went in straight. I still feel it's more likely to have been my poor drilling technique. I will try reversing the hammering to the handle on the next tool I make like this to see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@xConundrumx]

Maybe I am just missing something but here are my suggestions: 1. Use a router table and mortising bit, cut the handle stock in 2 equal halves and route the 'channel' for your square tool bar. Glue the two halves back together and use epoxy to glue the bar in place in the handle stock. Then mount on the lathe with for example Pen Blank jaws (optionally using some plastic shims to protect the bar and jaws) gripping on the bar itself and turn. 2. For round bars, just drill the handle stock, epoxy the bar in place and again mount and turn as usual with the bar gripped in the lathe jaws. this should ensure perfect results no ?

[@JWWoodturning]

+xConundrumx I was trying to create a more traditional one piece handle. Your techniques seem sensible for a less stubborn approach.

[@xConundrumx]

+Jake Webb well i suppose you could use the same technique for the square bar version and drill a round hole. I only suggested a router because .. Well square peg, round hole. The main improvement I was going for however was to put the bar (round or square) in the handle stock first and secure it there and then to clamp the bar in the chuck with a rotating center (if desired) in the tailstock to prove more support to the handle. And then to turn the handle-shape with the bar already in place. Doing this would ensure the least amount of wobble imho. All deviation from the drilling and assembly would be inconsequential in tis way

[@JWWoodturning]

+xConundrumx Agreed, but I would sill love to be able to put a hole down the centre of a piece of stock, its that stubborn thing again.

[@egghead992]

I cut my Handel stock in half length wise then route a channel With a 1/2 " bit 1/4" deep 4" long in each half . Then clue them back together with the channels opposite each other to make a 1/2x1/2 channel for the bar. Mount on the lathe and turn to your shape. Then epoxy bar in the end. Finish . Bill

[@JWWoodturning]

Bill Pettit Thanks Bill

[@benbranch8479]

Jake Webb I agree with Bill if you are using square tool stock. With the handle stock cut square, cut it into 2 equal pieces, use dado blade of table saw or router bit to cut half the square hole in each piece ex. for a 1/2" square shaft, cut a 1/2 by 1/4 deep slot in each side, glue back together, then turn handle between centers using the square hole in the tail stock with a 60 degree live center.

[@davesloane5610]

I would drill the hole before turning and then use your live centre to centre the piece for turning. This would ensure that the hole will be dead centre.

[@JWWoodturning]

Hi Dave. I used something similar to what you describe on my celtic knot pen. Drilling right through, using the tailstock to align to the hole and then turning the handle true around the hole. Then capping the end I dont want open to complete is. Not a true 1 piece turning method but close to what I was after. I will definitely do my handles like this in the future. Thanks for commenting.

[@curtisbrock4868]

try rounding the square rod with a grinder for the end going into round hole.

[@JWWoodturning]

Hi Curtis, thanks for the suggestion but I was wanting a solid friction/interference fit so felt this method was more traditional and would require no glue.

[@JamesW81]

Also could be the bar.. it may not be 100% straight to start with.

[@JWWoodturning]

I'm reasonably sure it was straight but again worth checking next time I make a similar tool. Thanks James.

[@JamesW81]

No worries... just wish I could help more!

[@JWWoodturning]

Thanks. I think I have this solved for future tools with a new approach, I just need to do the video.

[@JamesW81]

Jake Webb cool, look forward to it! I've got some carbide tips ordered, coming from China so could be a while!

[@timothymcswain6235]

make a tenon maker

[@JWWoodturning]

+timothy mcswain Will do, Good idea for the first tool vid of 2016

[@timothymcswain6235]

round bar

[@JWWoodturning]

+timothy mcswain Definitely could work and I have to be honest it didn't cross my mind. I would be concerned with it being a little unstable on the tool rest, particularly as I use the side edges of the cutters as much as their tips.

[@JamesW81]

Drill press mate. Best bet.

[@JWWoodturning]

mine wouldn't fit a piece of timber this long, but an interesting idea