FAIR Perspectives Ep. 25 - Why America Is Uniquely Stupid w/ Jonathan Haidt

#JonathanHaidt #AngelEduardo #MelissaChen #Beingprohuman #FAIRperspectives #Podcast #Activism #Wokeness #Cancelculture #Censorship #democrats #republican #america #americanculture
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:14 Summary of Haidt’s Article on America After Babel
00:06:30 Decentralized Totalitarianism
00:08:40 Fragmentation and the Need for a Shared Story
00:15:24 Has 'COVID-19' United Us?
00:17:28 Importance of Dissent in Organizations
00:22:21 The Internet is the Fire, Social Media is a Chainsaw!
00:31:41 Comparing Social Media Platforms
00:37:24 Is Social Media the New-Age Attractive Nuisance?
00:38:54 How can we Reform Social Media?
00:46:20 The Distinctions between Liberalism and Conservatism
00:52:25 Social Media’s Effect on Democracy
00:58:10 There is Still Hope for This Generation
01:01:44 #BeingProHuman
Our guest this week is Jonathan Haidt. Jonathan is a social psychologist, professor, and author whose research examines the intuitive foundations of morality, and how morality varies across cultures-including the cultures of progressive, conservatives, and libertarians. He is the author of The Happiness Hypothesis, and of The New York Times bestsellers The Righteous Mind, and The Coddling of the American Mind, which he co-authored with Greg Lukianoff.
We chat with Jonathan about his recent Atlantic article “Why the Past 10 Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid,” social media and its effects on our discourse and culture, the need for a shared story, the importance of dissent, the distinctions between liberalism and conservatism, the global impact of America’s descent into what he calls “structural stupidity,” and what measures we can take to improve it.
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The Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism (FAIR) is a nonpartisan organization dedicated to advancing civil rights and liberties for all Americans, and promoting a common culture based on fairness, understanding and humanity.

[@goodtalker]

When I was 14 my dad ran a hardware and ranch supply store. During breaks and lunch hours people would often smoke cigarettes, discuss ranching and hardware issues, network with respect to customers, etc. At 62, I'm now finding myself working a post career, part time job, basically to stay busy. During breaks and lunch hours gone are the relatable conversations that held us together. In its place are smart phones peddling everything from porn, gambling, Facebook, videos, day trading, etc., etc., etc. Most staff having nothing in common with one another and don't seem to care. Learning and having a common mission has been derailed. But hey, at least now there's no smoking. Thanks for reading. Roy, So Cal.

[@afroabroad]

This is someone who has never lived outside of America. Trust me on this it’s a global problem.

[@flaviodrusovalerio2825]

Well the thing that shocks the most about "common americans" (of every race, color and political background) is their complete ignorance about the outer world. Starting from basic geography.

[@StopWhining491]

Many of those common Americans are even ignorant of basic American geography.

[@Keithmable]

agree. we are a decaying empire.. got by on the hubris since ww2. didn't need to be globalists. we have 800 military bases, outside our borders.. its an arrogant global model. don't have to think as a global citizen.. just expect the world to conform.. world is passing the USA by in some regards... Chas Freeman is good source on this.. as well, Chris Hedges.

[@QuintaJoryal]

Lol but we are smarter than most. Memorizing geography doesn’t require intelligence.

[@Keithmable]

@QuintaJoryal not really smarter..we rank pretty low for richest economy in world . Also rank low on many things.

[@QuintaJoryal]

@@JoeKelly-co8td Europeans only memorize. Have trouble thinking outside the. Box. I know , i studied there. And arrogant too

[@danwarb1]

Bigger money in politics. It's better for the ruling/owning class if the public is divided over social issues and not thinking about the obscene transfer of wealth from workers to rent, oil and tech barons, and war profiteers.

[@stevepierce6467]

The "culture wars" keep the ill-informed that way, and well distracted from the overpowering transfer of wealth to the wealthy.

[@i-am-vonnegut]

The Romans called it bread and circus for the plebs.

[@zaloo]

well said

[@piratessalyx7871]

The dumbing down of America worked

[@stevepierce6467]

@@piratessalyx7871 Back in the early 60s I got a great education from 2 lady teachers at a small rural school in Nebraska, ladies who 10-15 years later would have been lawyers or doctors. Education has suffered a lot because we cannot pay enough to attract really talented people today into the profession. There are a rare few who feel a true calling and are willing to accept much lower pay, but they are definitely the exception. The dumbing down continues apace.

[@SandyNiki]

I teared up when you mentioned the internet of old. I miss my online friends and the ability to post without outrage. It was mostly us nerds and geeks being left alone. I want that back.

[@iananderson1901]

This makes me think of irc chatting with a bunch of like minded people. I miss those days too

[@justgivemethetruth]

I think I must have blinked and miss that when it happened. I remember the old POTS, plain old telephone system BBSs before the internet and the nascent internet, and it was good in some places, but it got bad fast, and there were always trolls and hacks disrupting everything as much as they could.

[@kimbruns2084]

Yea, now those nerds and geeks control what search results you’ll get and decide what speech they like and don’t like.

[@eleveneleven572]

Correct. Bizarrely it was a much pleasanter place. It's the throbbers on the Left that have toxified that and the rest of society.

[@mikelouis9389]

Believe it or not, the AOL message boards, at first, were actually fairly decent. Then the morality patrol and outrage junkies signed in. Flame wars became the norm and I basically stopped using any form of anything remotely 'social' for several years. I actually miss the mid 90's.

[@NoirL.A.]

i'm 54 and quite frankly i think that even amongst big time intellectuals like this guy there is a natural tendency to want to idealize the past or idealize other cultures when the truth is people were every bit as stupid when i was young as they are now the internet and modern media simply makes it all more obvious. this tendency to "idealize" is natural because sub consciously it gives people hope that somehow someway things at least COULD get better. i'd even say for nerds, geeks and knowledge junkies like me this is the golden age because we have more info. avaiable to us now than at any time in human history when i was a teenage geek with interests shared by almost none of my peers i would have killed to have something like the internet available to me as i can honsetly say i would not have been watching reality shows or wealth porn then either. i would also say i am 100% confident that everything we see in the world now was inevitable and that if the internet existed in the 1920's you'd see exactly the same as you are now. people are mostly insular and shallow by nature social media didn't brith this beast.

[@peterwestgarth1477]

No but it fed it.

[@seejayfrujay]

Not mentioning Inverted Totalitarianism by Sheldon Wolin and The Society of the Spectacle by Guy DeBord in this discussion is perhaps the reason this panel struggles. No contextual frame, so assessments are all over the place. I down voted it.

[@zeromonster3381]

Exactly.

[@jaysphilosophy1951]

The 1920s had guys with machine guns and zoot suits throwing dice in back allies. The 2020s have nerds and swat teams. Not the same.

[@jannetteberends8730]

Just watched a video where is was stated that the education level in the USA is steadily decreasing the last decennia. They are not in the top ten anymore.

[@moif_velocita]

Hasn't American always been like this though? The only thing that changed was social media gave stupid people access to the public discourse

[@mikelouis9389]

America or as it was called, The Colonies, was the dumping ground for societies dregs in Europe. Criminals, religious fanatics, the mentally unstable/challenged, social malcontents. Then there were the royalists, the corporatists and the intellectual outliers. With foundational sociological DNA it amazes me that we've not had 10 full on civil wars. We've also been home toan extremely large percentage of religious extremists so intelligence has not been a desirable trait in potential mates. We've kinda bred for dumb.

[@stringwave5579]

American from all 36 American countries

[@desertdetroiter428]

Yep. ALWAYS!

[@keithk8275]

@@stringwave5579 he's speaking about you.

[@cosmicsquid]

@@keithk8275 Who is you? God Bless America and the United States.

[@NealR2000]

As a European who became an American, I have some thoughts on this. There are stupid people everywhere, but I'd say that the USA has a higher proportion of them. This stupidity is the cause of high levels of crime and also a massive drain on public funds in terms of social needs.

[@zaloo]

it's because there is minimal social investment, education, health, culture.

[@theboombody]

@@zaloo Culture is horrendous. Musicians encourage EVERYTHING wrong. Pimping. Drug use. You name it. If we could clean up this one thing alone I think it would do wonders.

[@ultravioletiris6241]

A European jumping to conclusions about a foreign place? Sounds about right lol .

[@emmaphilo4049]

The problem in the US is that they are stupid and extremely confident at the same time. There is no place for self questioning or doubt. I find it very strange. It definitely a unique blend that I feel like is seen a lot in the US.

[@bipolarewok]

I often wonder how low is the bar in the american school system. For example: the other day I saw a video where a lot of people couldn't name three countries that weren't the US. And I mean not one. I live in Uruguay and there's probably somebody here that can't name a single one either, but I'm 100% sure that that person lives in a rural area and can't read or write either. But these where middle-class kids, with at least a high school level education, some probably in college. And that blew my mind.

[@PhilipFClark]

America has been in great danger for a long time, and that danger has been a progressive ignorance. In education, politics, and most forms of culture, we are more hateful, vicious, and completely narrow-minded. Haidt's great book reminds me of two other important books before it: The 'Culture of Narcissism', and 'The Closing of the American Mind'--two works that are mandatory reading to understand why Haidt's great studies are so important. Wonderful podcast.

[@pipster1891]

Capitalism is probably the biggest culprit.

[@EyeByBrian]

Those two books are worth reading, though Bloom’s _The Closing [etc]_ especially is something of a jeremiad and, from his small ‘c’ conservative position rather unfair (certainly undialectical) in his evisceration of student culture/political movements. Another book I would add to this mini-genre is Richard Hofstader’s _Anti-Intellectualism in American Life_ (1963) which traces the ignorance you speak of to America’s Puritan founding.

[@PhilipFClark]

@@EyeByBrian Very good points you make here on the Bloom -- he was rather hard in that respect; especially now, that content reads more than a bit fatuously by him. And thank you for the Hofstader recommendation, and that would be fascinating to read, because I certainly agree with its premise.

[@Stupidityindex]

Prophecy is a fantasyland term. We don't have prophets listed in The Yellowpages. We don't have prophet trade-schools. If there were a god, then would there be any demand for scripture interpretations by various podium-jockeys using fantasyland vocabulary? We really should address the social acceptance of large numbers of people speaking a fantasyland vocabulary & openly indulging in the deceit of religious belief as a tool of fascism. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing, we know them by their works: A wicked generation seeking signs when Jesus The Nailed says faith is worthless if you can't move mountains by issuing verbal orders to one. Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy. The Christians slapped their books on the Old Testament, & the Mormons glued theirs on to them both, thus proving Christians lack quality-control. Look at the verbose podium jockey speaking of faith & prayer as if we all should have a preference for travel with one foot in fantasyland. Nothing fails like prayer in a children's hospital, & there is talk as if God does not have a perfect record of doing nothing, as if we had no reason for the saying: God helps those helping themselves. A house divided cannot stand. We vote because Christians have no quality-controls, & we desire those governing not making suggestions travel is best done with one foot in someone's fantasyland. 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'' It was secular law & order ending the inquisitions & witch-killings. One might expect a deity to make itself known to everyone without work performed in interpretations of old literature by guys like our verbose podium jockey. Theologians acquire grand titles without certification from a deity, & project certainty using fantasyland vocabulary in an academic setting to compensate for lack of reason.Christopher Hitchens' epic opening statement (Must see)

[@EyeByBrian]

@@PhilipFClarkCheers, and hope you enjoy the Hofstader.

[@jvs333]

American went into “stupid gear” starting in 1980. Reaganism, MTV, the age of superficiality

[@mikelouis9389]

The elevation of greed as a virtue.

[@killerDIRK1]

See my post above ^ .

[@Philip-bk2dm]

Reagan sold Americans the false narrative that a government that was dedicated to the common good and not personal gain was to be feared above all. "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help", he said in1986. A convenient justification and red herring that appealed to our worst instincts for greed and disregard for the plight of the disadvantaged. Imagine a President quitting the war on poverty with the cute and flippant remark "Poverty won".

[@mikelouis9389]

@@Philip-bk2dm Remember, he actually spit directly in the face of Christianity when he said "greed is good". I seem to remember something called THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS! Evil bastidge.

[@josepha.r5839]

Don't quite agree ... except for the superficiality (which was NOTHNG compared to today). If you 'stupid gear' because of Reagan's election, then I agree with you. Complex time. I well remember Reagan's reign as Governor here in CA. When he was in the running in 1980 more than one non-CA couldn't fathom that he could possibly be elected I cautiously replied that it was very possible. And, again ... 2016 happened.

[@michaelbyron1166]

~H.L. Mencken (revised for our modern times) "The main stream media and social media, especially of the better sort, has the intelligence of a hillbilly evangelist, the courage of a rat, the fairness of a prohibitionist boob-jumper, the information of a high school janitor, the taste of a designer of celluloid valentines, and the honor of a police-station lawyer.”

[@mikelouis9389]

Very well said.

[@thomasbell7033]

I so live Mencken, until he turned into a red-baiting anti-semite. I vote lefty, but how can you hate on images like "America is a milch cow with 100 million teats."

[@sifridbassoon]

yeah, Mencken was very self-approving and big on judging others and finding them lacking. He was also a big supporter of eugenics.

[@sylviam6535]

He also said that most journalists do not the intelligence to successfully perform their job.

[@sylviam6535]

@@sifridbassoon- It sounds like he was a perfectionist.

[@patriciaveech5393]

This conversation was a breath of fresh air. Thank you, Angel, Melissa and Prof. Haidt. It is so important to maintain our humanity and compassion during these difficult days. I appreciate the work that the three of you are doing. Stay well!

[@99guspuppet8]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ this conversation was a combination of erudition and extreme wimpiness wimpy, wimpy, wimpy wimpy ….. if you have gangrene… You can scrape at it with a toothpick or you can cut it out……… Which will you choose?…… Let’s all go to Sugar rock Candy Mountain.

[@99guspuppet8]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ JH makes so many statements that just seem completely unsupportable

[@jacksable9596]

Community is not on the internet, it is what’s outside your door. Being forced to interact with real people builds your character, wisdom and communication skills. Watching people of wisdom communicate effectively in real time will teach you to do the same and help you learn what doesn’t work as well. This begins in the cradle. Children need real people interacting with them in real time to develop effective skills, the more the better. The internet and everything on it is just a reflection of yourself. When I hear people saying something is “amazing,” that tells me that they just found something or someone that agrees with them, easy to do with clicking, swiping and algorithms.

[@kristopherloviska9042]

Yes. And Twitter (or whatever it is called today) is NOT the new "public square". It is more like graffiti scrawled on bathroom walls.

[@andreasplosky8516]

I did away with my mobile phone 15 years ago, and only kept a mail account. No Twatter, no Fakebook, no nothing. The best thing I ever did.

[@jassminyoung2605]

I keep trying to figure out a way to ditch mine but I'm bad with directions and need my GPS often!!! How do people contact you now, do you have a house phone??

[@andreasplosky8516]

@@jassminyoung2605 I do have a house phone, and a mail address. That is it. I see no value in social media in general. I looked at Twitter, Facebook, and stuff like that, and I perceived it as generally revolting. I don't want anything to do with that intrusive nonsense. I am not a very social person, so it was very easy for me to ditch the mobile phone.

[@childfreesingleandatheist8899]

@@jassminyoung2605 No need to ditch the cell phone. Just stop using all social media and you'll be fine.

[@andreasplosky8516]

@@childfreesingleandatheist8899 I agree. If you have anything resembling a functional social life, you need a mobile phone these days. Facebook and Twitter and the likes are poison, though. I have seen these affect my family and acquaintances.

[@theboombody]

I'm on youtube and my desktop too much, but I think it really does help not being on the phone and on Facebook, Twitter, or Tik Tok. I'm never on those and I'm glad I'm not.

[@Jazaniker]

I never comment, but this was hands-down one of the most thoughtful, compelling conversations I've ever heard and the two young moderators give me great hope and motivate me to jump in with them and wrestle with these ideas and work toward positive, critically thought out change. I'd also never heard of their guest but I'll be seeking out more from him too. Thank you for being part of the solution.

[@fairperspectives142]

Thank You!

[@TennesseeJed]

Agreed! It made me subscribe and hit the bell. Thanks Fair!

[@ric2play]

The trouble with Academia is that their solution to every crisis is...'Let me write a book'

[@stegemme]

what else would you expect

[@marianhunt8899]

Exactly, just making money.

[@ric2play]

@@marianhunt8899 Money out of Crisis - America's Motto

[@peterhall6656]

I am an applied mathematician and this phenomenon has been under active analysis by people researching networks. Indeed, there are several US academics who have been getting grants from DARPA, the Dept of Defense etc for years to study network impacts of Facebook etc. For instance, one simulation showed how a small group of influencers who promulgated bogus health information could seriously disrupt the entire US health system. Because of complicated feedback interactions some of the outcomes are quite surprising. There are also some abstract probabilistic issues as well. If you model a system as Bernoulli with variable probabiities of success then the variance (standard deviation) is maximised when the probabilities are all equal. Thus if you have a uniform system in the sense that the probability of someting (eg media falsehood etc) is the same across the system then the volatility in outcome is maximised. Counterintuitive and not really rigorously applicable but nonetheless it grounds some of the nonsense that is observed.

[@jonaskoelker]

> Thus if you have a uniform system in the sense that the probability of someting is the same across the system then the volatility in outcome is maximised. This sounds really interesting! Care to share the details of the model? Here's a little modeling exercise I did during the covid lockdowns: let's say any pair of people is just as likely to interact as any other. Whenever one person is sick and the other healthy, there's a risk of transmission (if both healthy: no virus to spread; if both sick: no healthy host to infect). So the rate of transmission is proportional to the proportion of people who are sick, times the proportion of people who are healthy. Lo and behold, the logistic distribution is the solution to the differential equation implied by my words. I guess if both the virus and the absence of the virus (or good and bad factual claims) have a chance of spreading, and it's 50/50 which one spreads when a mixed couple interacts, then whichever condition is in the majority spreads faster than its competitor and in the limit occupies 100% of the system. Is this the kind of extremification-driven high-volatility you're talking about? I guess a generalization: if the truth wins 51% of the time, then any amount of interactions will on net advance the truth. More people will convert to the truth than away; if all changes are like this, then the only stable configuration is one in which everyone believes in the truth.

[@teastrainer3604]

I quit Facebook because my friends expected me to take part in political discussions every day and to agree with them.

[@Kari.F.]

The algorithm of Facebook, Twitter and so on work the same way in Europe. If I ask people who strike me as unusually ignorant and simpleminded if they spend a lot of time on Facebook, the answer is usually yes. They are almost always people who work in menial jobs because they didn't do well in school. But the mandatory education here is the same across the country, and relatively high quality. Compared with the early education in many red districts in the US, it's freaking excellent. A uniform and high quality early education across the country would help a lot to cure the "uniquely stupid" America. You used to have basic civics in fourth grade social studies from fourth grade. For the past few decades, Americans can graduate from highschool without having been exposed to basic American civics at all. You have a lot of people on the far right who call themselves "constitutionalist" who have never read "The US Constitution explained" that was written for children's civics lessons. As a European, it has been disturbing to explain - and also see other Europeans explain - to middle-aged Americans what a republic is, what a democracy is, that the POTUS can't be blamed for the decisions made by the governor and state Congress make, that "the star spangled banner" refers to the American flag, what the first amendment in the US Constitution actually says and what that means... I could go on and on. It's sad that more Europeans than Americans have read and gained a basic understanding of the US Constitution. You are our greatest ally, so we care. I guess that means that we care more about America than the vast majority of the people Trump calls "American patriots"...

[@0oo00]

Academic hustlers will destroy humanity. Good work!

[@jillfryer6699]

it ends to oversimplify everything. @@teastrainer3604

[@chef4797]

I would hate having remained in the USA and having to navigate within the Overton Window there (live in Norway now). Two points : neither the democratic or republican party are doing anything useful for the average person in the US. The political show is just that a tragic comedy with no results in the US. Its the dictatorship of the ownership class in the US and they own politics. Things in Europe we take for granted (we don't we know we have to fight for them all the time) such as universal healthcare, guaranteed housing and food security, sick leave length based on actual sickness, not losing home due to medical debt, not having a new mass shooting, etc. Every person wanting to take away someone's rights will often go to the stale argument "protect the children". There are a host of reasons why younger generations are self harming. The main one is us adults are doing jack all to deliver them a better future. Kids in the US live in a polarized, individualistic, uncaring society. We don't have the discussion to set age limits for the internet in Norway (that are taken seriously) because we teach socialist and group values, that we need to take care of each other. We believe in our society enough to allow some bad to happen but keep the freedom. If you want to fix the US then just implode and let the rest of the world give you a Marshall plan that will dictate how you will treat everyday people,. Your problems are all rooted in capitalism without social safety nets and lack of highly organized citizens.

[@hparkindc]

simplistic nonsense

[@russellharrell2747]

I thought it was a good objective view of the trash fire that is the US at this time. Spending over 50 percent of GDP on the military for decades and ignoring infrastructure, stagnant wages and the rolling back of human rights are having severe consequences right now and will only get worse. Maybe people will finally listen when we start having a city a week flooded, burned or otherwise made unlivable to a large part for weeks, months or years. Remember Katrina, we are going to see the same type of federal abandonment we saw in New Orleans on a regular basis.

[@greymanBB]

Norway is woke madness- distilled.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@hparkindc Naw, he's right. Over in Europe they live in actual communities. Over here we live in soulless, mind-numbingly ugly suburbs where the only public realm is devoted to cars. Result? Each individual is an island unto himself and at the same time a crab in the same bucket as the others. Hence the lack of a safety net, transportation options, and inability for the citizens to organize unless they're megachurch members. And who set up this arrangement? Corporate interests in the 1930s, 40s & 50s that served it and "The Greatest Generation" who gobbled it all up.

[@smoovjazz8029]

Oh I'm going to love this channel. I'm a huge fan of Jonathan Haidt. He's not interviewed enough. This was a great conversation and I look forward to more in the future. ❤

[@thomascarlisle7895]

I heard the word “discipline”. This is the basis for the American stupidity currently extant in the US. Sometime in the 40s and 50s our educational system began to break down. Increasingly students began to shy away from the discipline required to learn what was being presented. The result of this UNeducation is what we are now experiencing particularly in our political arena. We are uneducated, proud of it, and do not want to listen to anything that might require changing our way of thinking.

[@arxaaron]

Thank you for the most reasoned and intelligent conversation I have found on the internet in a very long time. I was drawn to click on this video as a fan of Jonathan Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind", and I greatly enjoyed his conversational presence in sharing more of his fair minded analyses of the psychology, systems and institutions impacting our modern social condition. Discovering the FAIR community is an especially welcome bonus. As a humanist freethought Quaker passionately involved in personal and community efforts to dismantle systemic racism, the FAIR pledge and principles resonate with me deeply. I look forward to building integrity to humanist principles through active participation in your organization. It seems a good path to explore on my journey to becoming less of a hater and more of a Haidter. 🙂 -- sincerely, a citizen promoter of the open source internet commonwealth, and a reformed libertarian now imagining a discussion with Jonathan on the extensive negative impacts of globalized capitalist mythology on both our social condition and our planet. 🙂

[@MH-be6hr]

Huh? Haidt is a closet conservative along the lines of Reagan and Bush. He's also an unrepentant scientific racist and sexist.

[@ChristinaChrisR]

GREAT that you brought that up, Mr Heidt, internet and/opposed to social media, and the questions with the three boxes. 🔥

[@sweetjp5165]

2010 is what I call ground zero. This is when everyone got a platform placed directly in their hand. It's social media sure but smartphones made media accessable whenever, wherever, who ever you are.

[@MaisyDaisy333]

Thank you for sharing this important conversation with us! Great job with the interview -- keep up the good work! ❤️

[@rogerhamilton4961]

Great discussion! A society that has cultivated a population raised on ignorance, bigotry and superstition is bound to become exactly what we have. I’m not surprised that, in a period of time when we have access to more information and resources then any time in human history, many of us choose to reject anything that doesn’t confirm their own narrow way of looking at things.

[@dallenpowell2745]

This was incredible to listen to. There were many beautiful nuggets of wisdom to chew on. Thank you for putting this together. Jonathan Haidt has something the world needs more of today and forever. Have joy in the sorrows of the world.

[@janettucker3196]

I think humans are basically primitive. We have innovated past our capabilities.

[@snorgonofborkkad]

Yes! Jonathan Haidt is so awesome. His contributions to the pro-human pushback against critical theory have been invaluable. He may be one of the most underrated pro-human voices in the whole movement.

[@anastasiabennett2543]

Hear! Hear!❤

[@thesaturdaymorningcowboy4198]

I wholeheartedly admit my intolerance. I’m intolerant of stupidity even though we’re supposed to be kind to the disabled.

[@scottykay1116]

Interesting thought. Perhaps I am stupid. Rhinestone Cowboy, is it stupid to think the Wuhan Institute of Virology created and launched, perhaps accidentally, SARS CoV-2 in the tail end of 2019 (COVID 19) and Dr. 2 weeks to flatten the curve's pals at EcoHealth Alliance helped fund the Gain of Function research that was occurring there? Is it stupid to think that much of climate change is because of natural cycles and human activity (Anthropogenic) is only a small part of the equation? I could provide other examples, but that is enough for now. Thank you for your consideration.

[@BlacksmithTWD]

It's not unkind to not allow people not wearing prescribed safety gear from the construction site. The people without the proper safety gear may think you are unkind or nitpicky, yet letting them hurt themselves is even less kind. There is a differnce between being kind on the short term and being kind on the longer term.

[@jerilynmays578]

Intolerance, in this day and time, is so non-productive. Why not SHARE your wisdom, so that we can all advance to your level.

[@Roedygr]

CDC was on the blue team because the blue team was on the side of science, The red team always diametrically opposed science.

[@joelwillis2043]

He can't harshly judge the right or he loses a lot of fan base. So he correctly calls out Trump but has to hedge against that by saying "both sides". If the stupid magatrolls would have isolated for a few weeks and learned to wear a mask properly we wouldn't have tanked the economy.

[@athenakoios]

What is a woman according to blue ?

[@jrd33]

National institutions like education, science, law, medicine, journalism, the military etc should NOT favour a political party. No country can thrive if its institutions become political.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@athenakoios Blue team goes by the latest findings of science, not just the Seventh Grade science red team follows.

[@christheghostwriter]

​​@johndavis3331 those institutions weren't favoring a political party. The political party was just another institution that took the pandemic seriously. There was another party that didn't take it seriously because that's what one person wanted. Your "political favoritism" argument is bullshit

[@sleethmitchell]

what an interesting discussion! the distinctions between twitter, tik tok, instagram, etc., is beyond me. (yeah, i'm THAT old...) there was a time when social interactions were done in coffeehouses or neighborhood bars. people tend to act more responsibly when the person is directly in front of them. the sense of reality is much stronger when there is no glass barrier between you and the reaction you engender.

[@justgivemethetruth]

yeah, and you did not have to wade through 100 insults and nasty comments to get to one honest actual conversation.

[@mikelouis9389]

Sad to say, the promise of a fist to the face promotes civility and reason.

[@cyberneticbutterfly8506]

​@@justgivemethetruth Or if you are cynical, that's the dishonest polite conversation because you can't risk being as confrontational as your opinions really are, while opinions behind a screen allow for saying how we really feel. In other words "how we really feel" is a lot worse than we realized.

[@tadwiltman4875]

@@cyberneticbutterfly8506 I agree with you... BUT... even though the politeness is some what faked, words control thought. Such politeness tends to have a moderating effect on thoughts (for most well-adjusted people)

[@cyberneticbutterfly8506]

​@@tadwiltman4875 Indeed, absolute honesty is a temptation to act on our short-term desire, how we feel in the moment while dishonest politeness moderates us until we can have a chance to consider things and let cooler heads prevail.

[@evaosborne6985]

I am 70. I use the internet and an android cell phone. I use Zoom and Teams for international communication. I text. I do not use any of the social media: tic tok, instagram, facebook, twitter, tumblr. As a result of these choices I know I am cut off from the beliefs and practices of most of the younger generations. A fact that saddens me. Like J Haidt, I believe humanity is an evolving species. My hope is there are strong wise leaders taking us in to that brighter future the boomers all thought was coming. Good conversation. Thank you.

[@drew1771]

What should be pointed out is that the right wing militias are so easily aroused that it is almost unfair to say that leftists are doing much to antagonize them. Woke-ism is a big problem as it represents overwrought pandering to legitimate groups, but we’re talking about a group that was antagonized by women wanting equal pay and minorities pushing for more opportunities. Whereas leftists actually push back against and gatekeep its woke members, the conservatives have given in completely. I don’t know any fiscal conservatives who still identify as Republicans at this point. It’s hard not to antagonize a group that wants to go back to ‘50s repression. On one hand, there is always that sneaking suspicion that the two Parties are in cahoots. OTOH, the Democrats are very effective at sidelining or squelching progressives and extreme left positions. The Republicans abdicated this role so the far right crazies are effectively pushing the GOPs policy making. It isn’t quite right to blame leftists for arousing far right conservatives; conservatives have been going in this direction since the ‘80s.

[@squatch545]

'Wokism' is a nonsense buzzword and when you use it you lose all credibility.

[@willnill7946]

As a man, I don’t fight to empower other men above me, and I don’t envy what others have.

[@aaronhalloway7237]

"I hate woke-ism as much as anyone else." -Haidt I'm not sure what he's talking about. I haven't seen anything wrong with "woke-ism." Why is it a thing that one should just nonchalantly assume is widely hated?

[@nishadgulvady5534]

@@aaronhalloway7237 "Wokeness refers to the invocation of unintuitive and morally burdensome political norms and ideas in a manner which suggests they are self-evident. This idiom - or perhaps communicative register - replaces the obligation of persuading others to adopt our values with the satisfaction of signaling our allegiance and literacy to those who already agree. In some cases, this means we speak in an insular language that alienates those who haven’t stewed in the same activist cultural milieu. At other times, it means we express fealty to a novel or unintuitive norm, while suggesting that anyone who doesn’t already agree with it is a bad person."

[@sylviam6535]

So woke is a completely legitimate social justice movement and it’s the people that opposes who don’t get it? Most people feel the opposite way.

[@frentz7]

It's so weird. Like there was Occupy Wall Street, the Tea Party; a vast widespread sense that our federal government was corrupt -- 20% approval ratings for Congress! -- and that corporations were influencing America in bad ways .. and a lot of Americans got much, much more involved in politics. And meanwhile Haidt here has spent the last ten years off on this other riff, a different topic ..

[@erichaynes7502]

yes the media(s) and entertainment and junk food corporations stepped in and destroyed American minds.

[@Sl1pstreams]

Occupy and the Tea Party are excellent examples of Haidt’s observations. If you were pro-Israeli (or just Jewish), you weren’t welcome in Occupy because progressive politics are structurally antisemitic. If you were openly gay and wanted to participate in the Tea Party, you weren’t welcome because you were LGBT and right wing politics are structurally anti-gay and anti-trans. The “dissenters” were still busy upholding and promoting the structures of division. And both projects were dismal failures.

[@LoisSharbel]

Angel and Melissa, I found you because of Jonathan Haidt. I am an ardent follower of his writing, lecturing and thinking. He is brilliant and clear in his explanations of what he discovers with his research. What a gift to find this podcast, FAIR Perspectives! Now I am a follower here. THANK YOU!!!

[@hvalleydude922]

"A lot of things that we take for granted are gonna break." I agree. I work in public health, and it's totally falling apart. The cycle of epidemics/pandemics of emerging infectious diseases, new (likely zoonotic) infections, antibiotic resistant pathogens, and the reemergence of vaccine preventable diseases (like measles, polio, etc.) is already speeding up, and our public health institutions, our economy, and our culture are simply not prepared to deal with it. Add to this the extant (and worsening) climate catastrophe, and I think you have the perfect storm for societal collapse.

[@Red-Brick-Dream]

The ruling class, and their lapdogs who call themselves "economists," would have us believe that neoliberal capitalism is the be-all and end-all; eternal, immutable, and *right.* There were those who said the same thing of slavery, to which the French Enlightenment writer Guillaume Thomas François Raynal replied, "...If then, ye nations of Europe, interest alone can exert it's [sic] influence over you, listen to me once more...Nature speaks a more powerful language than philosophy, or interests..."

[@scottykay1116]

I like what you wrote. You're right, things are falling apart. If SARS CoV-2 was created and launched, perhaps accidentally by the Wuhan Institute of Virology at the tail end of 2019 (COVID 19) and Dr. 2 weeks to flatten the curve's peers at EcoHealth Alliance helped fund the Gain of Function research, would that alter you perception of why things are falling apart? What is you opinion of Klaus Schwab and his "Great Reset?" Schwab, who is a very rich man said- "You will own nothing and be happy." Isn't that wonderful to hear that pronouncement from a rich guy? You work in Public Health so you are, in my eyes, a very important person. We- the collective we- have a huge weight problem. Many people are not just 10 or 12 pounds overweight, but obese. Is obesity a major factor of bad health outcomes? Thank you for input.

[@gordoncrawley5826]

With everyone doing everyone any way they can, I expect to see some interesting STD's in the near future, with no antibiotics to treat them.

[@ms-jl6dl]

All the things you mentioned are less than 5% of total damage and human suffering. You failed to recognize cancers,dementia,cardiovascular issues,diabetes,drug use,violence,psychological problems,"homelessness"...but you "work in the public health"?????!! Let me guess : You voted for Bernie? Another delusional "champagne socialist". May god have mercy on our souls. You won't,you can't.

[@MH-be6hr]

Blah, blah, blah, blah... 😝

[@shelleymays8529]

This was great. Such a well rounded positive, informative talk. Fear is often a basis of the problems in our society. People react instead of act. Fear being the propulsion. Is this something that needs to be addressed? I subscribed and upvoted. Good luck in all you do. I want to watch both of you help change the world for good.💜💚💙

[@douglaidlaw740]

I am pleased that even one American has brains -- and uses them. If I, a foreigner, could see all this coming 6 years ago, why could no American? Because they chose not to look?

[@marciamartins1992]

I called it the ostrich affect , because once you see it you can't unsee it, and then you're ruined forever. Also there is the issue of proximity and loss of perspective. Example our politicians are so up close to money they can only see the rich mans point of view.

[@cyberneticbutterfly8506]

Presumably Americans did but society is a dry subject brought up rarely so you might not have heard from them. Certainly not in news or entertainment.

[@chaserofthelight1737]

Some of us did come to see it 6 or 7 years ago, we were told we were the crazy ones. “That’ll never happen here” was one of their favorite responses.

[@matthewspeak1808]

Does anyone know what the intro music is?

[@pmccarthy001]

Right at the beginning Jonathan Haidt said something I'm really sure I understand... something to the effect 'Let us confound their language so they don't understand each other...'. He was speaking about this in regards to the Babel analogy from the Bible. My first take on this was that this seemed a bit bizarre. Well, when Trumpists tell us that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump... it's not a some kind of breakdown in communication. I think everyone has a shared understanding of what they're trying to say, and the consequences of it. I have read Dr. Haidt's book The Righteous Mind and I can understand what he might be trying to say in light of that, but I think things may have changed. Nowadays, I'm not so sure it's so often some breakdown in communication. I'm 60, so I guess so much that I am was formed in the pre-Babel times... if I'm following the analogy correctly? I guess Dr. Haidt is talking a lot about social media. I guess I don't really know that much about social media. I have a KZbin account, which is a lot like watching TV was years before, except now you get to pick and choose what you watch more (for better, and also perhaps for worse too), and also you can comment on the videos, which pretty much you couldn't anything like that with TV. I do have a Facebook account, but I've never done anything with it. I've never had a Twitter, Instragram, or any of those kinds of accounts,... and really don't know much about them. So I really don't know much about their impact on people. I know I can sometimes get upset about interactions I have with others on KZbin, but I try to stay away from that because it's kinda 'stupid' and it's very difficult to believe that any of it is going to change anything... at least for the better... for anyone. One thing not mentioned in your discussion is that I believe there's some monetary incentive for these 'social platforms' to have automated accounts, or whatever they're called. I don't know a lot about that, but I'd think that might be a point that Dr. Haidt might wish to investigate and discuss. I know I feel quite... scared... about the future. Given my personality, it just seems like many people are so... mean. I think we know Trump, and his followers, know he lost the 2020 election. I get mad sometimes... perhaps unlike Dr. Haidt... and say mean things. But, not trying too hard to justify my own shortcomings, this is different. This is calculated over a long period of time, and repeated again and again. Acting like they have some sense of legitimate grievance, when they know they don't have one. It all seems like an incredibly cynical power grab. Towards the end of the discussion Dr. Haidt was alluding to ideas of what he, and other scholars think might be our future here in the US. It'd be interesting to hear more about that.

[@EBDavis111]

I mean, there's some breakdown in communication. When Trump supporters say "The 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump" what they were really saying is "Black people were allowed to vote, and we need to change that." You'll notice that they all thoguht the election was going just fine, up until they noticed that the counts were close, except the black, heavily democratic districts hadn't been counted yet, and Biden was going to win. That was when they all started shouting about how the count needs ot be stopped. And why, since then, they've been passing new Jim Crow laws. " Acting like they have some sense of legitimate grievance, when they know they don't have one." Right. Acting like their side is valid is ipso facto supporting them. That behavior is part of the problem.

[@JaseboMonkeyRex]

a very good exploration of the current state of affairs - we need to set these types of conversations as the norm

[@chipndahla]

This was a rare and brilliant conversation. Thank you muchly from Sweden.

[@mikelouis9389]

You're bigly welcome.

[@76rjackson]

We don't add the adverbial -ly to "much" to intensify it. That's why we say "very much". Alternatively we use the phrase, "a lot." Can you make "much" into an adverb in Swedish or are you such a grammar genius that you are playing with us? No criticism, I genuinely admire your language skills and am curious how you came up with "muchly".

[@mikelouis9389]

@@76rjackson I THINK he's having a bit of sport with American voters. We had a certain person who will remain unnamed who used abominations like "bigly" "muchly" and "huuuuge" in his speeches. I found his jibe pretty funny.

[@76rjackson]

@@mikelouis9389 like you, when I read muchly, the first thing that came to mind was Trump's "big league" superlative which, when spoken rapidly, comes out as the eminently mockable "bigly". You are probably right that he's extrapolating from bigly which is crazy adept linguistically for a non-native.

[@foregoinfront2196]

having lived there I know there’re linguistic overlaps with English which make such extrapolations easy for them, and gaps that make them deaf dumb and blind to other linguistic aspects of English, kinda like you can hear in Abbas lyrics-tho in fairness that’s true of other languages as well… now, that they are inclined to do so is one reason I don’t still live there… in that regard Finland is to be preferred.. or to put it another way, Swedes try too hard whereas Finns hardly try

[@wiGoGale]

I love the net- i am off road in Alaska in a tiny remote town. And will use this info tomorrow! Also I can share it when it fits.

[@BlacksmithTWD]

Difference is, without discipline using a chainsaw will most likely hurt yourself, with social media chances are you will hurt someone else and be rewarded for it.

[@galaxytrio]

Interesting and inspiring talk. Loved the hosts and Jonathan Haidt is wise and humane.

[@lisamoellman2824]

So on point. The vigorous discouragement of viewpoint diversity in many top universities has created ‘collective stupidity’ No matter how many PhDs you have in the group, without open dissent, finding the holes, pointing out the contradictions or potential unintended effects… the group becomes nothing more than a well-educated GroupThinkTank.

[@ericchristen2623]

Never seen so many idiots with PhDs...

[@ultravioletiris6241]

Well , yea that makes sense. In the west, the US and UK have spent decades trying to neuter the ability of academia to meaningfully challenge the status quo. In the UK, dissident academics are targeted by journalists on the payroll of state security services. Probably the same in the US too

[@MH-be6hr]

The ultimate example of collective stupidity is religion! Talk about an echo chamber. Preaching to the choir. 🤔🙄😕

[@vhawk1951kl]

Try to understand that 'stupid' means having been stupefied or amazed , perhaps by a blow to the head. It is as witless as it is asinine to suppose that the stupid are to blame for their condition as it is to suppose that the short are to blame for their condition

[@Sl1pstreams]

Groupthink is as prevalent in anti-academia as it is in academia. The vast majority of “right leaning” and “left leaning” organizations have sacred beliefs that cannot be challenged and groups that are viewed as virtuous or evil based on religious-like a priori beliefs.

[@PaulAlmas]

The concern is that the mean morality of the nation breaks down to the development of character strengths in the individual and the educational system as well as parenting values have been missing for almost 3 decades or more. There are no blocks to build on.

[@OnASeasideMission]

It's been troubling me for some time that 'Big Brother is Everyone'. Orwell would not have been surprised. Many thanks for giving a clear view of what is developing.

[@justgivemethetruth]

just be skeptical

[@JohnKerbaugh]

It does make me skeptical of non anonymous social media being the only strong social media platforms. It's one thing to be legally discoverable it is another to be flapping your opinions in front of your boss, clients and their whole family. Real problems have messy discussions that don't always make for great interview icebreakers.

[@mf2382]

Angel and Melissa, great interview! Looking forward to seeing your continued great work.

[@garyweglarz]

"Structural Stupidity" - I love it!

[@alibarron7558]

After minute 12:00 you mention sources of information in the 1950s as being basically three TV networks, which was true. However during those years every little town had their local newspapers and of course many huge news paper chains existed. Radio also was a major source of news. TV news was a minor player for most of the 1950s.

[@russmarkham2197]

American culture teaches people that they are entitled to believe anything they want to, anything they find convenient, and anything that allows them to behave selfishly. They are taught that all views are political, there are no facts just opinions, and their own opinions are more important than anyone else's. This is partly the fault of religions that teach people that blind faith is good. It is partly the materialistic consumer society encouraged by politicians and corporations. This is why so many Americans move to Las Vegas or Arizona. They are oblivious to environmental issues and feel entitled to unlimited water and unlimited sunshine and good weather!

[@GlobeHackers]

It's like a tech-powered René Girard scapegoating mechanism. (Darts) If we don't reform social media, it will hasten the collapse of our complex global society. [The Empire is a complex global machine-a heat engine.] American culture can be creative or terribly destructive, influencing cultures worldwide. All we need is more economic stress, which will surely come via global warming. Global culture needs help now, or these pathologies will metastasize. We are in deep trouble, and the clock is TikToking.

[@CurriedBat]

The Fall of the Tower... hmm good working title. I was biking across Canada in 2015, with more strength and momentum than I have ever had before... or ever needed. I came back home, and by the first month of 2016 I realized that the world had changed in some inexplicable way... being a social scientist myself, I tried to make sense of it... I blamed Trump, but I suppose it was a much deeper rooted issue.

[@TheCommonS3Nse]

I feel like a lot of this was predicted decades ago by Hannah Arendt. When she wrote about people being alienated, she was referring to their alienation from society. She felt that people had become far too focused on individualism and they had completely ignored the role that community plays in forming our personalities. We know who we are based on how others judge our actions. Am I a good person? I would never know that if I was living alone in a cave. I must interact with other people and find out from them whether I am a good person or not. It’s the only way I can learn that about myself. I think this whole issue has been accelerated by social media, which emphasizes the focus on individual achievements and disguises itself as a “community”. The problem is that anything you post has been curated to present yourself as the person you would like to be. It’s not a genuine presentation and therefore it comes across as hollow and unfulfilling. This issue, along with hollow and unfulfilling jobs dominating the working world, is leading to a crisis of personality. Our typical way of forming a healthy personality, ie. acting in the world and being judged on those actions, has been perverted. This results in people joining cult like groups on either side of the political aisle in an attempt to choose a personality for ourselves. Therefore I see both Trump and the woke mob as symptoms of this crisis of personality in our society, not causes.

[@nestorreyes8897]

Your right like those guys Sicko's in the news fox always attacking. Government. And .creating. Hate y confused. People they know who the are

[@nestorreyes8897]

My.own.theory every human.being. w need to be responsible. Our own life and behavior..

[@nestorreyes8897]

Very slmple human race we survive. Or we destroyed our self's worst. Planet evolution. Humans in this planet

[@mtn1793]

@@nestorreyes8897 The need for personal responsibility is a mirror of the much greater need for public responsibility. It starts at the top in leadership, for the better and for the worse.

[@jmichaelkemmy8189]

How could anyone. By anyone, I mean willing to re-wind this thing multiple MULTIPLE times - out of a function of the pure genius of his coherence. He’s an architect of live communication - at the “every day common sense” worldview w/out ever - he’s such a master, a master that so rarely leaves me so breathless that I literally have to re-wind. These three individuals are the symmetry of the thing. More like listening to symphony than scholarly discourse. This is truly a THEY space, not a “he” space …. dig in to this delicious, sophisticated, so elegant … yet so rowdy, as agile and unpredictable as scalar argument … and the three of them … danced my nite away …

[@RMPdude]

Awesome show! Thank you.

[@D_Rogers]

It's interesting how the moral judgements have shifted, from coming down from older conservatives, to coming up from younger progressives.... The boomers must be pretty bewildered, going from judge to judged, over just a few decades... I'm not a fan of blaming social media for our own problems. I think parents are blaming social media for their lazy parenting right now, just like they blamed Dungeons & Dragons, Heavy Metal and video games. The printing press was an epic creation but caused a degree of chaos by letting everyone read religious texts and form their own opinions. Radio also had an imperfect debut, being used to propagandize Nazi Germany. TV gave us the modern tendency to worship pretty but dumb people... No revolution in mass media comes without a down-side. Or bringing out some fresh human nastiness.

[@liarwithagun]

This is true of every significant technology or environmental change really. The invention of certain financial techniques inflamed the slave trade a dozen times over in the ancient past which caused people to try various techniques to counter that happening to them for example. Syphilis caused people to start becoming more conservative with sex where before orgies and 'debauchery' were the norm.

[@joelstein4657]

I think we all know what the problems are. Unfortunately, no one has, as yet, come up with any workable idea to combat it. If it comes to a choice between Qanon and the looney tunes we deal with today and censorship of the internet, I really don't know which is more dangerous. It is a quandary.

[@lot2196]

Liberalism is the cause.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

If the internet is censored, the stuff deemed undesirable simply goes underground. I'm old enough to remember "The Turner Diaries" which hardly anyone has heard of but I was acquainted with it from a fellow Evangelical church member (I'm no longer Christian btw). It didn't seem interesting to me.

[@coalitionfortruth2390]

What if all the teenagers had during Covid lockdown was a library card and an entire room filled with books? How different would the world be?

[@Inisglas]

I remember American television, over 50 channels all giving exactly the same news and opinions.

[@kushsakhu]

Whenever I think about America and change, I think the first thing to change is the type of capitalism that they are addicted to.

[@psychicspy]

Capitalism is not the problem. People are the problem.

[@kushsakhu]

@@psychicspy The decades of evidence strongly says otherwise. The winner takes all system that benefits the few, will eventually erode public life due to the high levels of inequality and inequity.

[@psychicspy]

@kushsakhu The proof is in the definition. cap·i·tal·ism /ˈkapədlˌizəm/ noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. "an era of free-market capitalism" People use capitalism in ways that are unfair to some. It doesn't have to be that way, people choose to use it that way.

[@psychicspy]

@kushsakhu Since when has there ever been equality and equity in the world? People are only equal under the law. Otherwise, they vary considerably from individual to individual. Those individual differences account for 99% of the inequality we see. If there is a lack of fairness in the world, capitalism certainly isn't to blame. That is the fault of people.

[@kushsakhu]

@@psychicspy This is not about definitions. It’s about outcomes derived from the gaps in the foundation of the system. As I said in my original post. ‘This type of capitalism’. If this capitalism was able to self correct it would have. Moreover, why have a system that cannot influence the people to behave better. This system corrupts people to want more and more material wealth and we are surrounded by hat evidence. So feel free to promote it and love it, whilst it deprives the many, robs the poorer countries and lies it’s intent to the common man under the thumb.

[@Philip-bk2dm]

Campbell also pointed out that the hero's journey (in Parsifal's grail quest) begins by entering the forest where there is no path.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

I really like that reference. It sounds like one of those timelessly fundamental epithets.

[@Philip-bk2dm]

@@keyboarddancers7751Dancers I'm not quite sure about how you mean that, but I do think that it's a timeless metaphor for blazing your own trail to the fully realized, integrated self. A philosophical journey in search of liberation from fear and false understanding of the world and your (our) place in it.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

@@Philip-bk2dm Wow; you said it better than I ever could!

[@Philip-bk2dm]

@@keyboarddancers7751 But maybe you can do it better than I ever will. Talking comes easy. Doing is another thing. Thanks Keyboard.

[@trikepilot101]

Fascinating conversation. I have never heard of you before, the algorithm got this right. BTW name of "the medium is the message" guy is pronounced Ma-CLOO-an.

[@TJ-kk5zf]

Ordinary stupidity is for the poor. Extraordinary stupidity is for the very, very rich.

[@piercebales9546]

The one moment that all of humanity was united in a single event was the moon landing in 1969. Watching it happen on TV you felt that you were witnessing a miracle, you felt that you were one with people all over the world who were all watching the same thing at the same time and feeling the same thing. There was a feeling of pride among Americans but it was secondary to the experience of being human, just like the guys hopping around on the moon.

[@SillyTube9]

Also, if you say “both sides do it” after watching the absolute horrors of the past 6-7 years, you’re missing the point. The reason why the science “skews blue,” it’s because Liberals are the reality-based community, that actually requires facts. Similarly, the reason why the Arts and Humanities skew Liberal, is because Liberals actually believe in democracy, and the Arts & Humanities are engines of democracy (not capitalism - capitalism is spawned by democracy, but can ultimately also kill it, if it’s left unregulated.).

[@theboombody]

The problem with liberalism is it never knows when to stop or even put limits on things. I'm okay with granting union rights to homosexuals, transexuals, whatever. That's their business. But I am NOT a big fan of openly promoting every kind of sexual thought someone has ever had on half of the TV shows that are out there. We should try to keep our sexual instincts somewhat private and under control. Now we have people wearing inappropriately revealing clothes EVERYWHERE they go and not even monitoring who they sleep around with. Dropping F-bombs regardless of if they're in a family-friendly environment or not. It has been going on a long time I know. But it just keeps getting worse and worse. It really needs to go the other direction, because that uncontrolled animalistic behavior is definitely not making us smarter. Watch an episode of Maury and tell me what you think.

[@MH-be6hr]

Unregulated within sensible limits.

[@sylviam6535]

So why is it that the left just about ignores every scientific fact when it comes to gender?

[@berndtherrenvolk1951]

Wokeness, which is hyperprogressivism, is the problem.

[@user-gs1lz2pw9v]

​@@berndtherrenvolk1951how

[@dgh5760]

I totally agree with Angel on his comments that people need training to use their computer/phone/tablet social media tools properly and understand the potential dangers and nuances related to use. We give kids phones and let them loose - no wonder we have problems! If we can include this in curriculum at the ages where kids start being exposed to social media and are given access to these devices we might be able to reduce a large percentage of the harms. Reading, Writing, Mathmatics, Science, History, Device/App Knowledge/use are all valuable and necessary to properly educate our young. Now, how do we get teachers to teach these things instead of ideologies that are harming our next generations Therein lies the biggest challenge.

[@liarwithagun]

These sort of 'social problems' happens with all significant technologies or other environmental changes through history. Usually it means a few decades of serious problems before the group that can't adapt finally 'die off' (sometimes literally) and all that is left is the people who figured out how to live with the new tech in a 'good' way that lets them function. Things like banking or syphilis for example had similar effects. I assume we'll being in for about half a century or so of societal pain as people figure out how to adjust and properly integrate the tech into society.

[@ricardoarevalo6369]

In reality we have one party, the corporate party,same donor class for both.The only one thing they fight is abortion, they are in agreement in the forever wars, corporate welfare,no taxes for the rich, surveillance state we live in,etc

[@gomezjuanca1]

I feel so in sync with what Haidt has to say. He's very inspiring.

[@markwilliams2620]

Confirmation bias shouldn't be inspiring.

[@Bartcmh]

I was on board with you up to when you mentioned LinkedIn. I’m not the social media type. No Facebook or Instagram or any other whatever the latest thing is. But about 10 years ago I got an invite from a co-worker to join LinkedIn. I would occasionally log in and peruse the site and basically thought is was a networking site for office professionals. But lately in the last few years or so a lot of the posts are from pro Trump corporate types (not the flag waving loonies you see on TV) but the Forbes and WSJ readers. Anyway I rarely go on that site for that reason.

[@mikelouis9389]

Proselytizing. This indicates that that movement has shifted from political to religious. Very very dangerous.

[@LearnThaiRapidMethod]

Yes, there are many seemingly respectable institutions that are heavily funded by very wealthy elites who profit (or save taxes) off of official-sounding disinformation. The Hoover Institute for instance, and many newspapers and TV networks (e.g. those owned/controlled by Rupert Murdoch), etc.

[@markrossow6303]

LinkedIn has moderators beased in Indoa, who try to shield Modi and his Hindutva politics

[@d1001more]

You poor thing...nobody should ever have to see anything that could be perceived as pro Trump....soy clap

[@Bartcmh]

@@d1001more Thank You. You go on a website to check out some job prospects and the first thing you see is some Forbes reading troglodyte having an orgasm over corporate tax cuts. Traumatizing. I’m glad you feel my pain.

[@joelstein4657]

I've noticed that people of my generation (WWII) are pretty much immune to all the social media. I don't know of anyone my age who is on facebook or instagram. I use twitter to follow some of my favorite comics, writers, and don't even go near any site that is political or combative. The generation following mine seems more vulnerable and their kids are almost all addicted to it. I imagine it has to do with being caught at an early age.

[@lisaredwine4857]

It's not just your generation. I'm near retirement, you KZbin is the only social media (if you classify it as such) that I'm on. I was on Facebook for a few years, but got disgusted with it, and Ive never really checked any of the others.

[@ultravioletiris6241]

Most of the boomer/genx people i know are significantly more invested in social media than the younger ones . It makes sense-social media was invented by boomers for professional networking.

[@Preciouspink]

Win in the arena of ideas, without the intrusive silencing of hierarchys and socio political monopolys

[@danhaywood5696]

A growing number of Americans have a shared sense of being totally screwed.

[@jameswhitfield1375]

Is the political system itself the main problem? Both in the US and here in Britain there is a first-past-the-post system in electing our representatives. This has led, particularly so in these times, to a two-party system that places the interests of the party above the interests of the nation. Would a system of proportional representation offer a means by which the interests of the nation took precedence and, at the same time, permit other interested political views a say in the running of government?

[@jrd33]

That hasn't happened in the countries that do use PR, or a version of it. Instead you tend to get government by fragile coalitions with endless bartering of political favours to pass any legislation.

[@sylviam6535]

If they want to keep a representative system, they can introduce preferences in voting.

[@liarwithagun]

While I don't think it would magically solve this issue by itself, I do think it would help rather than hurt. There is more going on here than the party system being messed up. The party system being messed up is making the root (incompatible moral values and a lack of shared community) cause much worse IMO.

[@iart2838]

We actually never had democracy.

[@padredave53]

True. We are a constitutional republic that cherishes individual human freedom.

[@alexmckenzie8491]

At 1:00, he refers to 'members of the fair community' or something similar...what is he saying, I cannot understand the word. Thanks!

[@ianfinnity2732]

This is a really interesting and well argued conversation. Thank you internet!

[@kantraxoikol6914]

and i assure you that he's not woke and he's probably not "inclusive" either. some things in life like respect and outcome, responsibility and truth matter more than if i hurt our damn feelings or not.

[@youngidealist]

Where do you even begin to police teen girls showing pictures of themselves on social media without distancing them from you over the threat of being punished? Because kids will do all of the illegal things that you listed even despite all the policing that we already do. The only way to solve any of those problems is to take care of the deeper issues of needing attention, needing support, needing guidance, needing to feel listened to and appreciated. Most parents have not figured out how to do that. An economy that requires both parents to work leaves already neglected children even more neglected. I'm just saying that while I agree that some resistance should be on the social media itself to protect these young children, but there's a huge limitation in what we can do and it will only hinder us if we deny these kids what they are really after which is an outlet of expression and feedback on what they express of themselves.

[@8vius]

I'm Venezuela and I was surprised to see Haidt say that the model of what USA might become is Venezuela or Argentina, if I understood correctly. Because I have heard mention often from my own people that they think USA will end up like us because of the political division.

[@deadman746]

Haidt has certainly improved since the recording console theory of left and right.

[@jeffpurvis2867]

30min in about Instagram is very true even more so with tik-tok. I have no social media. This is as close as I get and yes it is like I am not a real person to most people I meet.

[@Mindfeels]

I really enjoyed this conversation. Subscribed

[@guruprasadf07]

It's not just Americans, it's youth in every country !!!

[@shaft9000]

To answer the Q briefly: COMPULSORY PUBLIC SCHOOLING is why. I think Haidt is somewhat too narrow in his scope here. A context of 2010-onward focusing on social media can highlight recent problems, but cannot sufficiently diagnose the illness. _Symptoms are not the same thing as the causes. Related, but not the same - both must occur in order._ Research John Taylor Gatto's books, articles and speeches for a thorough detailing.

[@shaft9000]

And from Dr. Lyell Asher: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zpnck6SdbZahY68 This is a focused set of insights and studies into why what's happening now is happening the way that it is. It complements and overlaps with Haidt's perspective well; at times uncannily so.

[@lestariabadi]

RE Angel’s question then what can millennials do? May be similar to Jonathan’s Haidt’s answer: make friends with people who are different. I’ve experienced close friendships with radicals from the opposite demographic, due to our active involvement in a “club” of rare disease caretakers. Wonder whether that is the answer of non-political close friendship online & offline, being active in a common cause.

[@bekindrewind9675]

Lobby for and create a movement around education about devices.

[@radscorpion8]

a lot of people are in love with Jordan Peterson for what seems like a wide ranging personally inspiring speeches but really, Haidt is the hero of academia that is actually trying to put things right again. He isn't off the rails in many of the ways Peterson has become (anti-global warming, trans issues, claiming trudeau is a dictator, the all meat diet...just so much more), he's just a very respected academic who is trying to put the world back together again. I just hope that we can all find a way to do so! Though I am kind of hopeful thus far

[@lllordllloyd]

Peterson is a self-help spruiker who has built a vast empire on flimsy foundations. He uses many of the salesman's tactics, aggressively bullying those who question him, making it a calculatedly unpleasant experience. He says a few commonsense truths, then moves very quickly to dubious assertions, then outright lies. His fairness is an act, he presents moral choices as "natural" forces (that it is folly to resist). His popularity is actually a measure of how many stupid people there are, most of whom would rate themselves as in the top tier.

[@theboombody]

@@lllordllloyd At least he says a few commonsense truths. More and more Americans can't even make it that far. They are absolutely and totally controlled by whatever stupid thing they think is popular. So Peterson looks awesome next to them when at best he should be just a normal guy. The bar is set SO low now that normal looks superior.

[@Quinceps]

There is no “world back to normal”, because time goes on and things change or die. The Superman logic where you simply need some external foe to hate and expel to “restore some order” is part of an old conservative scheme particularly important in the US (far more than in present time Europe, I’d say). It’s ultimately a stupefying ideological fantasy, suitable to indoctrinate kids. Awareness of inner contradictions in society instead of nostalgia is the way out of it. But at least you seem to be in touch with your emotions. That’s a start.

[@theboombody]

@@Quinceps Certain revolutions happen naturally because the time for change has definitely come. Other revolutions completely fail because they were spurred on by foolish ideas that for some reason became popular. Some of the revolutions we're going through are here to stay and others are just worthless fads that will be gone after a while. Whatever Peterson does will have little impact on either.

[@kennykaufman8263]

What also goes unmentioned about the social media shaming of people is that - many many people don’t have the stomach for getting insulted and shamed, and as a defense mechanism, they turn their heart cold. Enough said.

[@deus_ex_machina_]

Indeed. That's why being ‘cancelled’ often leads folks with misguided views _towards_ hateful reactionaries instead. Accountability is just. Cancel culture is counterproductive.

[@herbjones3601]

Wonderfully thoughtful, intelligent, compelling and learned man. Great speaker with the ability to clearly articulate the methods and downsides of controversial(even currently taboo) and disruptive ideologies.

[@gordoncrawley5826]

He is right, things are going to hit the fan very soon. We have sown the wind and are starting to reap the whirlwind. We thought that we were so smart, that we became stupid, focusing on mindless things and seeking our pleasures in the wrong places. Most say there is no God and no judgment, so if this is all there is, do whatever you can get away with, any way you can.

[@sandro412]

Something to feed the Algorithm :=)

[@modestproposal9114]

Like all centrists, Haidt is complacent and niave about the threat from the far Right. He says "we aren't going to die" but the last great capitalist crisis in the 1930s led to a war that killed 50 million people.

[@colyn4968]

So the Versailles Treaty, Red Terror, Collectivist Identity Politics, Holodomor, et al weren't factors? Free markets killed all those people? 🤡🌎

[@druzilla6442]

From the outside of the US it seems bad. The supreme Court tearing down the right to abortion and the way that looks like it's just the beginning. I really hope it works out. It's scary to see so much similarities. I've heard people talking about christo- fascism. I'm not really fond of the term "judeo-christian". It's so weird, with all the animosity that's been there before, now we cut out Islam. They're all Abrahamic religions. The seven mountains christian thing is awful.

[@mikebanks2176]

Nothing to do with far left or far right. It’s wealth, and whatever way of thinking will keep them wealthy, they’ll make that happen. Though a right will fight while a left will hide. We need both ways of thinking working together.

[@amraceway]

@@mikebanks2176 The left represents labour, the right capital. Pick your side.

[@mikeenwright333]

@@mikebanks2176 There are wealthy people all over the world and the populations in most western democracies aren't manipulated by them. It's not money that's the problem, but rather ideology the most dangerous coming from the far right.

[@ADobbin1]

That's easy. Our lives are too safe and we no longer have to think so our kids never learn to do so.

[@CyanCooper]

What percentage of people have actually been canceled?

[@DWor-]

I'm looking forward to Gen-Z people joining the News-Media workforce. That should be interesting. Also happy J. Campbell got a mention and with, "I'm not sure you know who that is." Made me feel "special'. ^_^

[@philv2529]

It's not just gen Z. People have always been stupid

[@onarkbbymistake776]

Thank you for an excellent presentation featuring a truly credible academic well interviewed. That said I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that I do not entirely agree with the premise of blaming social media to such an extent for American stupidity. I have no doubt that social media may have a unique responsibility for certain ills particularly in relation to the mental health of the younger generation. However, in relation to the political stupidity I believe that it has been an effective accelerant to a smouldering situation that preceded it. It is my view that in America in particular but to some extent in other Western countries certainly the United Kingdom and to a lesser extent Australia we have created a class of people who can only manage their cognitive dissonance by seeking out lies and liars to willingly and enthusiastically believe. We now have a class of people whose lives are so wretched and their prospects for the future and that of their offspring are so bleak that their options are revolution or delusion. There are of course an even larger group of people who can see themselves in similar despair if their lot changes just a little and so while they are less predisposed to rocking the boat they are just as keen in sharing in the delusion. For these Americans in particular who on the one hand believe that they live in the greatest country that the world has ever seen, who believe that every day lived by anyone in the USA is better than any day lived in some other country. Who believe they live in a country where anyone can and will be rewarded for loyalty and faith (including religious faith) are confronted by their own miserable circumstances their only choice for sanity is to believe in an externality. I don’t mean by this a rational assessment of globalisation and neoliberalism which would certainly be beyond some of them though not all but which would shatter the artifice of the paradigms of those who undertook it. I mean rather the simple belief that it’s the fault of “the others” and I (the liar) can fix it. One commentator, in an attempt to explain trumps victory said that “his opponents take him literally but not seriously and his followers take him seriously but not literally”. This was incorrect his followers take him seriously because they take him literally. More recently our eloquent expatiate Geoffrey Robinson in an article on the demise of Boris Johnson re-quoted a line originally referring to Henry Kissinger “he lies not because it was in his interest, but because it was in his nature”. Again, with respect I think he missed the point lying was very much in Boris Johnson’s interest. It was what the disenfranchised English particularly in the north who needed to believe that Brexit would be good for them. In the end until the parties on the left (and I use that term in its loosest sense) can begin to create an economic narrative that speaks to these people then they will remain ready and willing to take lies by whichever medium they are most effectively delivered.

[@laurie113]

IvealwaysbelievedsocialMedia is the downfall of all. The internet allows people to learn. It ever used correctly. I believe that will be our downfall as well.

[@Jedi_James]

Excellent interview.

[@InBrz]

What is the BEST resolution to this countrywide problem ? As one who moved OUT of the US in 2018, I'd say THAT is the best change a person can make Don't waste your life trying to change things where you live, go live where things are like you want them.

[@Glicksman1]

From their first incarnation I had bad feelings about what is called "Social Media", which I have always called "Anti-Social Media". I have never been on Facebook, My Space, Twitter, Tick-Tock, or any of that crap. I don't text, I speak. If SM has corrupted society, and I think that it definitely has, I have intentionally avoided such as I intentionally and distinctly have never participated in any of it. I am, however, all too aware that living in our society awash with such nonsense has its nefarious effect on me, however I try to resist it. I recently had to switch to a "Smart Phone" to continue to use a cell. Oh boy. This ought to be fun. Yes, I have noticed a definite dumbing down of Americans, but not only since the 2010s. I've noticed it for decades. As a proud, self-defining, independent participant in the '60s Counter Culture, I began to notice it then. I think it grew in intensity after WWII, in the conformist, white bread and mayonnaise, Stepford, mindless '50s. The adults then were largely of what is erroneously called, "The Greatest Generation". If you were not a child then, let me tell you, they were not exactly geniuses. Remember "Duck and Cover"? QED The "Greatest Generation" blithely continued and gladly condoned cruel, overt institutional racism, embarrassingly deluded exclusionary, hateful religiosity (just as Jesus would do), misogyny, anti-Semitism, and so much more of those kinds of immoral (Socratic, Kantian and Humian, etc.), ignorant things. Not so "Great" after all, were they. Losing money in Crypto is not a sign of intelligence, you know. I have a nice bridge to sell to you, cheap. "Wokeness" is a slow form of Krellian ("Monsters from the ID"), self-annihilation and is, to me, absolutely decentralized, uncontrolled (gone amock) authoritarianism of which I want no part. Media gatekeepers? Menken, Murrow, Cronkite, Huntley, Brinkley, Hume, Lehrer (and his brother, Tom), Rather, Donaldson, Jennings, Brokaw, Williams, Koppel, Woodsten, Wallace, Gumbel, Maddow, and more I can't remember. When the Trumpian fascists take over (Zeus forbid) and wash democracy, decency. liberty, and the Constitution down the drain, we'll all have a "Shared Experience" then, you can be sure. The Right Republican's Pyrrhic Victory - Dobbs v. Jackson overturning Roe. The Kansas Referendum is only the beginning. It's "so much fun" not "so fun" which sounds ignorant, childish and crude. Language matters. Anyway, thanks for an enlightening vid. There are apparently a few, scattered pockets of thought and thinking people left, and this site is one of them.

[@williamparker1085]

social media will destroy democracy

[@Glicksman1]

@@williamparker1085 Might already have done so.

[@frenchguitarguy1091]

Yeah thing is that america is not the only place with social media, whilst other places have some problems with it, it's nothing compared to america's problems.

[@frenchguitarguy1091]

Anyway about the rest of your comment stop saying you went to woodstock, we all know you were too young, and it's not that cool, leave a like if you're a guy and leave a comment if you're a woman

[@elpacho....9254]

Thanks for the book.

[@richardscrimger3969]

Decentralized totalitarainism? Brilliant way to think about it. Blockchain power structure.

[@markendicott6874]

We are a Country that still has massive poverty, inequality and a way too rosy view of a past that wasn't always that great either. It's pretty easy to convince many that the stupidly grotesque policies of a few massively privileged ideologues are fine and dandy when they constantly play to these factors to keep the majority in their place and compliant.

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

This discussion is finally catching up with Frank Zappa. Years ago now Frank said, (and this may be a paraphrase), "Progress is not possible without deviants."

[@AllDogsAreGoodDogs]

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." --Frank Zappa

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

@@AllDogsAreGoodDogs I didn't think that I got that quote right. Thanks for the correction.

[@AllDogsAreGoodDogs]

@@ThisTrainIsLost Most welcome. Thanks for mentioning Frank!