Faith vs. Reason: Can There Be An Islamic Philosophy? - Abdal Hakim Murad

[@msaali3179]

Summary 1. The heart is the only reliable tool to truth, because the mind is too fallible e.g. Ibn Kudama - literalism 2. Also, mysticism is at the centre of Islam vs Theology in Christianity - Practice, as opposed to thought - Islamic(law), imaan, ihsan

[@meriembenelhechmi7586]

i beleive yes, because what phylosophy about is going under the obvious clear meaning, reach deeper level of meaning but without forcing it, and that's what islam is. It is to believe but to contiously search why is that?...the prophet ibraham askes god to show him how he will get back dead people... he was beleiving but there is this eagerness to know how and why and how come this particular whay and not the other....phylosophy is a way of thinking...prophet ibraham was courageous to declare his desire of knowing...many people choose to stay covered behind fair....afraid of going in to the end of the thinking process...afraid of seeing the truth with clear eyes and live according to it....phylosopher's do that....and you can here truth and wisdom from their words...and that's whet islam is....truth, clarity and wisdom

[@miralabualjadail4206]

I like the maturidi theory on evil.

[@AudioPervert1]

Ever read or even browsed through the life of Averroes - Ibn Rushd - 11th Century Muslim Scholar and Philosopher ?? living in Cordoba Spain. There existed a period of approximately 300years where Greek and Arabic and Jewish philosophy was translated, discussed and exchanged amongst different group of scholars. He translated huge amounts of philosophy by Aristotle from greek to arabic. Which eventually got translated into Latin, Hebrew, later to French, Spanish and further Italian. It would be impossible for 14th 15th 16th century progress, for europeans to access the works of Aristotle without the efforts of Ibn Rushd. Averroes.

[@ConcreteMessage]

Dude he literally talked about ibn rushd in the video

[@saimbhat6243]

Do you seriously believe that he doesn't know about ibn rushd, ibn sina, al farabi, al ghazali et al ? I am sure that unlike you, he would have read their complete works and in original arabic texts.

[@fje4ever]

Unfortunately he makes an error at 4:35 as Satan is not and was not an angel. Angels are pure light and cannot defy.

[@Drfau1710]

Thats a very common error though. Perhaps in this case it was a slip of tongue.

[@alonewithalones]

@ari balhari ur statement is correct

[@Noeman2009]

You are correct. In Islam, God only created angels, jinn and mankind. Angels don't have a free will while jinn and mankind have. That means Iblis are Jinn. Only in Christianity that considers Iblis were deviant angels. Devil/Satan themselves are something we as human & jinn poses: 'And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent' QS An Am 112

[@arbaazsaiyad2729]

Bledar ..there is a confusion... Iblees is allowed the place in angels because is the most superior nd obedient jinn. But it doesn't mean he is from angels. Or Allàh grant him the certificate of being Angel. He was jin while he was with angels in heaven.

[@asresalim6145]

@@Noeman2009 What? God only created Angels, Jinns & Mankind? Who created Animals and Insects? There are multi million galaxies in the 1st heaven. Most probably there are trillions of other creations of God. Time doesn't exist for God. It's like he exists in every place every time. Such is out God. Praise be to him.

[@Arxces]

Iblis is clearly a jinn (see e.g. Surah Al-Kahf at 18:50) Perhaps Sheikh Abdal Hakim translated jinn as angels. Angels in Christian beliefs are fallible creatures who are capable of disobeying God and sinning (e.g. Lucifer). The Malaika obey God unflinchingly and do not sin.

[@abdelbaasit1]

This was debated right from the very beginning of Islam; major companions of the Prophet, like his own cousin, Ibn 'Abbas (whom the Prophet called the _"interpreter of the Quran"),_ said Satan was an angel and interpreted Q 18:50 in a way that supported that understanding. Refer to Imam al-Tabari’s exegesis, among others. Al-Baghawi, for example, states in his exegesis that this view was adopted by the majority of Quranic exegetes and is the most obvious interpretation of Q 38:73-74. In his exegesis, Imam al-Qurtubi said that this was the predominant view among scholars including Ibn 'Abbas, Ibn Mas'ud, Sa'id b. Jubayr, Ibn Jurayj, Sa'id b. al-Musayyab, Qatadah, etc., and was the preference of Shaykh Abu l-Hasan al-Ash'ari, Shaykh Muwaffaq al-Din Ibn Qudamah, great Imams of the Maliki school, and which al-Tabari discerned to be the soundest view.

[@stealthyghostmk3289]

@@abdelbaasit1 source?

[@abdelbaasit1]

@@stealthyghostmk3289 reread my comment above slowly; I literally gave reference after reference (the exegetical works of al-Ṭabarī, al-Qurṭubī, al-Baghawī, Jamāl al-Dīn al-Qāsimī (2:103), etc.). This was also the view of the famous Imam al-Nawawī (see his _Tahdhīb al-Asmā’,_ 1:107, “the correct position is that he was one of the angels” [وَالصَّحِيحُ أَنَّهُ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ]). The great Imam al-Suyūṭī also noted that this was “the majority position” in his “Gleanings of Coral” or _Laqṭ al-Marjān_ (p. 189, “wa huwa qawl al-akthar”).

[@a.Bader97]

Satan was never an Angel, he was always a Djinn. One shouldn't mistake the christian belief of Satan being a fallen angel with the Islamic belief that he was always a djinn.

[@rabeafaraj1930]

"So where are you going?" (chapter 81 verse 26) whats a dijnn?

[@MrXclusivemoe]

+ateka faraj jinn are one of the three original creations god made, men from clay, angels from light and jinn from smokeless fire. They are beings who inhabit parts of the world but are unseen. They're like what you might call a demon but not all evil since they posses free-will to choose.

[@yousefalsamaani7445]

And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

[@abdelbaasit1]

Since this issue was debated right from the very beginning of Islam, it is most definitely *not* an “Islamic belief”; major *Companions of the Prophet* (incl. Ibn ʿAbbās, whom the Prophet named _The Qur’an’s Interpreter,_ and Ibn Masʿūd, the 6th person to embrace Islam) and their students (major Successors like Saʿīd b. Jubayr, Qatādah, Saʿīd b. al-Musayyab) interpreted the relevant Qur’anic verse (18:50) to mean Satan belonged to a tribe of angels who were the guardian-treasures of _Jannah,_ hence they were called _al-jinn,_ in reference to their position as keepers of Paradise. The Arabs used the word _jinn_ to refer to anything that was hidden or couldn’t be seen. In fact, this word is also used in the Qur’an to refer to angels, as they are unseen beings! So _Jannah_ literally means: the Hidden Garden, because it is enveloped or concealed by thick trees; an insane person is called _majnūn_ because their mind or intellect is clouded; a fetus is called _janīn_ because it’s hidden in its mother’s womb; the black cover of night is called _janān._ There were other Successors, like Ḥasan al-Baṣrī, who argued that Satan was never an angel... Ultimately, the issue is inconclusive (and tbh not that important); both sides have strong proofs and arguments (from reason and revelation), and there are luminaries who held both positions. For example, Imam al-Ṭabarī, considered to be the master of all Qur’anic exegetes _(Shaykh al-Mufassirīn),_ strongly defended the view that Satan was an angel in his Qur’an commentary. Al-Baghawī, in his _Tafsīr,_ said that this was the view of *most* Qur’anic exegetes! Al-Qurṭubī and al-Qāsimī, in their respective _Tafsīr_ works, said that *Satan was an angel according to the predominant view among scholars,* including Ibn ʿAbbās, Ibn Masʿūd, Ibn Jurayj, Ibn al-Musayyab, Qatādah, etc., and that this was the preference of Shaykh Muwaffaq al-Dīn Ibn Qudāmah al-Ḥanbalī, Shaykh Abu l-Ḥasan al-Ashʿarī, and the leading Mālikī scholars; it was the view al-Ṭabarī discerned to be true; and it is the most obvious interpretation of the Qur’anic verse _“all of the angels, except for Satan, bowed down.”_ For, as Ibn ʿAbbās argued, had Satan *not* been an angel, the command to prostrate to Adam would *not* have included him (because God says He told _the angels_ to bow down); and had the command to prostrate not been directed at him, he wouldn’t have been sinful for not prostrating, and he would not have deserved to be punished.

[@----f]

​@@abdelbaasit1a very enlightening comment, thank you for imparting your knowledge

[@ObaidahNaseer]

Al-Kahf 18;50 وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُوا۟ لِءَادَمَ فَسَجَدُوٓا۟ إِلَّآ إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِۦٓۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُۥ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُۥٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِى وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّۢۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّٰلِمِينَ بَدَلًا And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange. He was a Jinn. Angels don't sin.

[@lionelchan1601]

Assalam alaykum. Guenon BECAME a Sharia following Sufi Muslim himself, and wrote extensively about its esoteric aspects, even as he insisted that one must submit to its exoteric aspects. Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding of at least his (eventual) position.

[@abrishami1984]

brother.. was satan a jinn or angel? in Quran it says he was of the jinn?

[@peteradamson5160]

i dont know

[@saadyosafi6004]

Ian Sharp qq

[@abdelbaasit1]

It was debated right from the beginning of Islam; major Companions of the Prophet (incl. Ibn ʿAbbās, Ibn Masʿūd) and their students (major Successors like Saʿīd b. Jubayr, Qatādah, Saʿīd b. al-Musayyab) interpreted the verse which you’re referencing to mean Satan belonged to a tribe of angels who were the guardian-treasures of _Jannah,_ hence the title _(al-jinn)._ The Arabs used the word _jinn_ to refer to anything that was hidden or couldn’t be seen; this word is also used in the Qur’an to refer to angels, as they are unseen beings! So _Jannah_ literally means: the Hidden Garden, because it is enveloped or concealed by thick trees; a fetus is called _janīn_ because it’s hidden in its mother’s womb; the black cover of night is called _janān._ Other Successors like Ḥasan al-Baṣrī argued that Satan was never an angel. Ultimately, the issue is inconclusive (and really not that important); both sides have their proofs and arguments (from revelation), and there are legends who held both positions. Imam al-Ṭabarī, considered to be the leader of all Qur’anic exegetes _(Imām al-Mufassirīn),_ strongly defended the view that Satan was an angel in his Qur’an commentary. Al-Baghawī, in his _Tafsīr,_ said that this was the view of *most* Qur’anic exegetes. Al-Qurṭubī and al-Qāsimī, in their respective _Tafsīr_ works, said that Satan was an angel according to the predominant view among scholars, including Ibn ʿAbbās, Ibn Masʿūd, Ibn Jurayj, Ibn al-Musayyab, Qatādah, etc., and that this was the preference of Shaykh Muwaffaq al-Dīn Ibn Qudāmah, Shaykh Abu l-Ḥasan al-Ashʿarī, and the leading Mālikī scholars, it was the view deemed to be correct by al-Ṭabarī, and it is the most obvious interpretation of the Qur’anic verse _“all of the angels, except for Satan, bowed down.”_ For, as Ibn ʿAbbās argued, had Satan not been an angel, the command to prostrate to Adam would *not* have included him (because Allāh says He told _the angels_ to bow down); and had the command to prostrate not been directed at him, he wouldn’t have been sinful for not prostrating, and he would not have deserved to be punished.

[@hudataji7361]

Satan was a Jinn , there is a clear verse 18:50 that states that.

[@mohamedaweys3879]

@@abdelbaasit1 Angels do not have free will and therefore cannot disobey Allah. The fact that Satan could do it means he really isn't Angel?

[@FluteHaoran1997]

I love it, but Iblis is not angel though.

[@bestieslife6353]

iblis once an angel..but higher

[@FluteHaoran1997]

He was among the angels, but we believe he is a jinny, one of the proof is that angel can not disobey God, however, I don't think it really matters

[@abdelbaasit1]

Tell that to the Prophet's cousin, whom he ﷺ dubbed "The Interpreter of the Qur'an," Ibn 'Abbas!

[@abdullah-al-noman5070]

Al-Kahf (18):(50) وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُوا۟ لِءَادَمَ فَسَجَدُوٓا۟ إِلَّآ إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِۦٓۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُۥ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُۥٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِى وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّۢۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّٰلِمِينَ بَدَلًا English - Yusuf Ali Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! English - Abdul Haleem We said to the angels, ‘Bow down before Adam,’ and they all bowed down, but not Iblis: he was one of the jinn and he disobeyed his Lord’s command. Are you [people] going to take him and his offspring as your masters instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a bad bargain for the evildoers! English - Tafsir Jalalayn And when (idh is dependent because it is governed by [an implicit] udhkur, `mention [when]') We said to the angels, `Prostrate before Adam', a prostration involving a bow, not placing one's forehead down [to the ground], as a greeting to him; and so they prostrated, [all] except Ibls. He was [one] of the jinn -- some say that these [creatures] are a species of angels, in which case the exceptive clause [ill Ibls, `except Ibls'] is a continuous one; but it is also said to be discontinuous, since Ibls is [considered] the progenitor of [all] the jinn, having offspring who are mentioned alongside him further below; angels, on the other hand, do not have offspring; and he transgressed against his Lord's command, that is to say, he rebelled against obedience to Him by refraining from [performing] the prostration. Will you then take him and his offspring -- this address is to Adam and his progeny (the [final pronominal suffix] h' in both words refers to Ibls) for your patrons instead of Me, obeying them, when they are an enemy to you?, in other words, [when they are your] enemies (wa-hum lakum `aduwwun is a circumstantial qualifier). How evil for the evildoers is that substitute!, of Ibls and his offspring, in obeying them instead of obeying God.

[@himynameis223]

He WAS an angel

[@yousefalsamaani7445]

إِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ (34) And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers. He clearly was an angel.

[@AP-wn1vy]

Yousef Al Samaani that doesn't make him an angel. In Arabic there is something called, أكثر حكم الكل which means that 'most' is in the meaning of 'all' so since most were angels, iblees was also referred to as an angel

[@abdelbaasit1]

@Embre2000 Tell that to Ibn 'Abbas, whom the Prophet ﷺ‎ dubbed, _"The Interpreter of the Qur'an."_ Look for Ibn 'Abbas' interpretation of that verse.

[@abdelbaasit1]

@Embre2000 Again, do you speak the original Arabic in which the Quran was revealed? Are you more knowledgeable of the meanings of classical Arabic than Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Mas'ud? The ancient Arabs used the word _Jinn_ to refer to any unseen beings, and that is literally what the word means; in fact, in the Quran itself that word is used in different places to refer to angels (e.g. 37:158)! And Ibn 'Abbas, _Tarjuman al-Quran,_ explained that _Jinn_ here referred to a tribe among the angels, who were guardian-treasurers of _Jannah,_ hence the title.

[@abdelbaasit1]

@Embre2000 I find it fascinating, but hey, to each their own. It's ultimately an academic or theoretical discussion at the end of the day. ✌🏼

[@ObaidahNaseer]

Al-Kahf 18:50 وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُوا۟ لِءَادَمَ فَسَجَدُوٓا۟ إِلَّآ إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِۦٓۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُۥ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُۥٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِى وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّۢۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّٰلِمِينَ بَدَلًا And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange. He was a Jinn. Angels don't sin.

[@mohdfaizulazmi5358]

Tqvm

[@abdelbaasit1]

(4:35)

[@meowmeowone8479]

Yeah, I noticed that too!

[@abdelbaasit1]

(14:16)

[@ObaidahNaseer]

Mysticism is not from classical Islam.

[@chrisepperson5597]

I want to be as respectfull as possible. Consider this, the earliest view of Christianity on who mystery babylon was, is Jerusalem. Daniel 11:45, Mathew 24:15. You want mysticism? The numerical value of "Mystery Babylon the Great" through Jewish Gematria is 1926. The very year the Balfour Declaration was ratified in the UN. Coincidence? Their Talmud is Babylonian. Luke 13:33 - 34 shows Jesus calling Jerusalem the killer of prophets. Revelation 18:24 says Mystery Babylon contains the blood of prophets. So much for Jesus being a false prophet.

[@SarahShante]

Muslims Love Jesus. We don't believe that Jesus is a false prophet at all, but we do believe that his original revelation was corrupted into a false religion. Jesus preached monotheism, but his European followers changed it into polytheism with their mistaken beliefs in three gods of one essence. If you worship three gods, then you're a polytheist like the Hindus who also worship multiple gods of one essence.

[@abdullah11120]

Subhanallah i see how little the layman like me knows of the vastness of this deen and the makham of our shayookh... all this talk of Iblis was a jhinn haha subhanallah

[@TheMohadam]

Satan wasn't an angel. He was from Jinni

[@yousefalsamaani7445]

He is an angel who went against god request.

[@abdelbaasit1]

If the Prophet Muhammad's (ﷺ) own cousin, Ibn 'Abbas, whom he (ﷺ) named _The Best Interpreter of the Quran,_ believed that Satan *was,* in fact, an angel, who are we to be so dismissive of that view? You can believe what you want, but have some respect for a view that was held by some of the Prophet's (ﷺ) closest companions, like Ibn Mas'ud, _God be pleased with him,_ the sixth person to accept Islam! The view that Satan was an angel was also held by the martyr, the disciple of Ibn 'Abbas, Sa'id b. Jubayr, about whom Ibn 'Abbas said, _"How can you ask me (a question about Islam) when you have Sa'id among you?!"_ When Sa'id was killed by the tyrant al-Hajjaj, it was said that there was no one more knowledgeable than him left on the face of the earth. _Sayyid al-Tabi'in,_ or the greatest successor to the Prophet's companions, Sa'id b. al-Musayyab, who learned from countless _Sahabah,_ also held that Satan was an angel. Qatadah, who learned from the Prophet's personal attendant Anas b. Malik, also believed Satan was an angel. I could go on... but I hope my point is clear. Just because you haven't heard about something, doesn't mean it's not there. If you look into classical Arabic sources, like some of the ancient Quran commentaries (by Qurtubi, Tabari, Baghawi, Qasimi, etc.), you'll find all of this and much more. Part of what I love about our Islamic tradition is its vastness and diversity; so many issues we may think are set in stone were debated from the earliest of days...and this is from God's mercy on this community and His wisdom in teaching us to respect differences of opinion.

[@nebozemlya]

Angel is approach or regarding to substance to farishta. But the Holy Qur'an mentions not by substance but by the job they have. So when king ordered all ministers one of them did not follow the order. By JOB. Other wise satan will claim that order was given to Angels not to Jins yes? So Sajda to human has nothing to him as he is jinn. Malaaika is specifically meaning as "governs or owners of certain field of existence." Please understand Maalaaik [a] and Malik are different in. Very delicate approach needed when translating the Qur'an because same word can be translated differently and different.

[@zad3v]

Ian Sharp >>>> satan is from a jinn

[@somayyamughal8313]

Satan is jinn from fire.

[@jhangeersultan5821]

religion is all a big riddle to me

[@robmckay5421]

Short answer is No as a result of Al Ghazali and his book that rejected philosophy. See Al Ghazali's The Incoherence of the Philosophers. A century after Al Ghazali a man named Averroes (Ibn Rushd) drafted a lengthy rebuttal of al-Ghazali's Incoherence entitled The Incoherence of the Incoherence; however, the epistemological course of Islamic thought had already been set. Al Ghazali killed philosphy and this explains why science in the 18th century emerged out of the Judeo-Christian world, leaving Islam in the Dark Ages.

[@yanisdh6985]

have you actually ever read any of their works? al ghazali turned out to be right in most of his views: the universe having a start linked space and time together as unseparated entities and basically a primitive version of quantum theory etc.. also said that the sun might be expending or shrinking contrary to the ideas of the Greeks that concidered everything outside of earth as being eternal and unchanging, ibn ruchd held the views of the Greeks of old... al ghazali didn't kill philosophie in any way or form , nor condemned it. he just corrected it with logic and rationality, they both had their rights and wrongs tho. and for the reason behind the scientific fall, well as always, the answer is politics.

[@AsratMengesha]

Everything in Islam is Philosophy, Buddy! Don't you know that, Mr. Murad? You have been Islamized (philosophized) wrongly. right?thanks.

[@robmckay5421]

There is no room for philosophy in Islam. Al Ghazali killed philosphy was back in his work The Incoherence of the Philosophers. A century following a man named Averroes (Ibn Rushd) drafted a lengthy rebuttal of al-Ghazali's Incoherence entitled The Incoherence of the Incoherence; however, the epistemological course of Islamic thought had already been set. It explains why science emerged out of the Judeo-Christian world, leaving Islam in the Dark Ages.

[@ErnestAdewoyin]

The philosophy of Islam fails at Taw-hid. Jesus bless you.

[@aimantra]

Nope, you are the one who fails to understand about Jesus. don't read what Paul had written. Read what Jesus P.B.U.H said in the bible.

[@SarahShante]

Actually, Christianity fails at Tawhid (oneness of God). You can't have three gods and be a monotheist who worships one god.

[@miralabualjadail4206]

Tawheed means monotheism. Which all Abrahamic traditions share.