What's the Future of Women at Church? A Conversation with Neylan McBaine and Bethany Brady Spalding

[@TheLaceydiana]

Thank you for having this beautiful conversation. While I have had some wonderful experiences serving as a woman leader in the church, I have also had some traumatic experiences with priesthood leaders. It’s important to be able to talk about and acknowledge the pain of those who have been marginalized, sidelined, or disrespected by priesthood leaders without being dismissive. It’s like if someone were to tell you about their abusive father and you dismiss their pain by saying, “Well I had a good father and I know a lot of good fathers.” How do those comments help? They don’t. Mourning with those who have been harmed, having compassion for them, and helping them heal from their pain is what is important. Unrighteous dominion does exist and we should do all we can to call it out when we see it. Thank you for educating us on what this looks like and how we can help implement change. I hope we hear more conversations like this. Thank you

[@pattyyung]

Thank you for sharing this. It highlights some important reasons why many women are feeling pain and feeling like they can't grow in ways they understand God wants them to grow.

[@laughingface1]

I’m sure I’m not alone in watching or listening to your videos more than once. I find that practice helps me understand the ideas being presented more clearly. I wanted to relate how our bishop celebrated Mother’s Day this year that I found so uplifting. All the speakers in Sacrament meeting were youth and their talks were centered on women in the scriptures and how they found inspiration in their stories. Afterwards we had a meeting with the bishop just for the women. All the women. The men took over the primary and Sunday school. The discussion was centered on Eve and all the we owed to her courage in taking the hard steps to move us forward. It was an uplifting and validating experience. It was the best Mother’s day I have ever experienced. I love Faith Matters and look forward eagerly to each new program you release. You have helped me enlarge my view and faith.

[@markchristiansen9611]

The full quote by Anette Dennis, for the record: “There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women. There are religions that ordain some women to positions such as priests and pastors, but very few relative to the number of women in their congregations receive that authority that their church gives them. “By contrast, all women, 18 years and older, in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who choose a covenant relationship with God in the house of the Lord are endowed with priesthood power directly from God. And as we serve in whatever calling or assignment, including ministering assignments, we are given priesthood authority to carry out those responsibilities. My dear sisters, you belong to a Church which offers all its women priesthood power and authority from God!.”

[@verafrazier3209]

Amen, and thanks for quoting. I'm afraid that the "seemingly" small and significant roles that woman play in the Church, are not appreciated for the very important and -yes- scared roles they actually are. Are we looking for power? For recognition? For glamour? Is it pride? Why would I feel like I need to baptize or bless my child? If I'm a single mother,the Church is set up for a priesthood holding minister, or family member to take care of it. Granted, the men in the Church don't always come through,but that's not the Lord's fault. According to president Holland,he - the Lord - deals with it. This is not a Church set up by men. The first principle of the gospel is after all faith. Why not trust him, who actually does know best. Why not learn to understand how wonderful and powerful our role as woman in the Church really is!? There are do many different aspects of the gospel you learn, and become converted to.Our role as woman in the Church may just need to become a part that we need to study and pray about, as much as any other part of the Gospel.Let's not downplay how much we actually help in making the church function. Should men complain about not being able to give birth? Is being able to conduct a Sacrament meeting,or the laying on of hands even comparable to being co creators with God? Besides,think of how woman function in the Temple. Is that insignificant to you? Let's be careful sisters. It's God's plan that is being criticized here. He will not be mocked. ❤️😘❤️

[@markchristiansen9611]

@@verafrazier3209 This video is a critique of current church culture, not of God's plan.

[@robertlewis7208]

Exactly

[@robertlewis7208]

​@@verafrazier3209exactly couldn't have said it better Women and roles they have to fulfill are something me as a man would fail at God bless all women and what they have to put with from us men God bless my mother and wonderful wife 🙏

[@Daniela_Explored]

Aubrey I love seeing you overcome the natural shyness you talk about to ask the questions that matter. We all have to face our fears and discomfort to enable positive growth in ourselves and communities.

[@aubreychaves]

Thanks so much ❤

[@meghanschwanke1133]

As a convert of several decades and a woman who has served in ward and stake leadership in three countries- my biggest concern, is not just being heard, but being treated respectfully. Numerous incidents of being disrespected, even as a health advisor in two missions as a volunteer missionary. Thankfully, I've had excellent and wonderful experiences with some male leaders, but others have been ridiculously disrespectful and then backed up by even area leaders. This is the basis for for so many young women that simply know this is wrong ,leaving the Church. What is wrong with in institution that does not treat women with basic respect?

[@jenniferflake9051]

We as women shouldn't have to advocate to have an opinion, but that's often been the case for me at a ward and stake level. I do not get that sense when listening to training videos from general leadership or when I partipated in a face to fave training with a member of the Quorum of the 12.

[@sdb816]

Goes both ways.

[@quernalt]

Disrespectful in what way please? Also, "...so many young women that simply know this is wrong...", but not mature women? Forgive me, but this sounds like a generation that is being sadly influenced by current social trends.

[@debtfreemom1026]

This is a meaningful discussion. Thank you for your perspectives. I don’t believe in male supremacy because I don’t believe in female inferiority. This way of thinking doesn't dismiss real problems women face that need to be addressed and eliminated in our culture, but rather, it’s the lenses through which you see life. If you have a victim mindset, you will read victimization into all facets of your life. I've never felt less than a man because the men run the church meetings or pass the sacrament; the artwork on the church walls depicts mostly men, or the endowment talks about men creating the world. I wanted to serve a mission, so I did. I wanted to get married and have kids, so I did. I wanted to get a Master's Degree, so I did. I wanted to work outside my home, so I did. But I didn't do it alone. My husband supported me as I accomplished my goals. I feel like the church teaches that men and women are equal partners and should work together to achieve righteous goals. I've seen this in the church too. When I was Relief Society President, the Bishop worked alongside me as a partner. We tried our best to help the poor, sick, and afflicted in our ward through the welfare programs of the church. The Bishop also partnered with the Primary President to help the children and with the Young Women's President to make our youth program amazing for both young men and young women. This past year, I worked as an ordinance worker in the temple. In this capacity, I blessed women's lives through priesthood ordinances. Men aren't better than us and we're not better than them. We're meant to compliment each other and work together. I would definitely love to see more women speak at General Conference! Maybe one day I will.

[@JMountainPlace]

My feelings regarding the roles and responsibilities discussed at about 17:00 have less to do with not wanting to assume these roles, but more that I embrace my roles and responsibilities, and want to fulfill those to the best of my capability. There are so many ways I need to “become,” I’d rather focus my energies there, rather than looking for things outside that purview. Until I’ve reached my celestial potential, I don’t need to seek for something beyond. I love the possibilities.

[@susanmiller3990]

Thank you-to all four of you.

[@shannonestarks]

I love these perspectives and appreciate the work all of you are doing with this!

[@Allloveislight]

Loved this… it resonates so much with me. Since having daughters, who are still little, I have felt the desire to be ordained, so I could bless them, baptise them if I chose, or they chose. Gratefully I have rarely felt second class as a woman, though it has happened on occasion, but the same in the world in general

[@walkinonsunshine4292]

Lately, I have been feeling Very 2nd Class, since texting questions to RS women, only to have RS women respond in text to my husband. Not appreciated! Am I invisible?? WTH?! Happy our seminary, UC & BYU Grad girls have grown up to earn Multiple Very Useful Life-saving & Important Medical & JD degrees! Good on them!!

[@PaulHailstone66]

Wonderful conversation! Thank you! I love how over the past several years, the companionship model has been displayed in the various Face to Face and other events where the Apostles and other leaders along with their spouses have offered guidance, insight, perspective, and testimony.

[@naomipedersen2516]

This is so beautiful. Thank you for being willing to talk about this.

[@familjenwerjefelt3454]

According to my understanding we are taught in the Temple that Eve made an independent decision after carefully considering the options. Eve opened the door -to our physical bodies -to our ability to learn the difference between good and evil. -to our resurrection -to our eternal salvation All of this without consulting Adam! It’s a woman’s church!!😊 Eve in a sense opens Adam’s eyes by her choice.

[@markchristiansen9611]

Yes, this is a wonderful thing about LDS doctrine, compared to traditional Christian thinking: Eve was a hero and a leader. She carefully, logically considered the situation and the options, and made the difficult but better choice to take on the trials of mortality. She enabled God's plan. The Fall was not actually a fall, but rather a step up and a step forward.

[@brucecowser7501]

Are you a Werjefelt from the Göteborg area? I knew some Werheflets when I lived in Stenungsund as a child.

[@TyleRMatin6532]

Uhhh Eve was beguiled 😂 read your scriptures.

[@markchristiansen9611]

This discussion is so needed, as evidenced by many of the comments here. Many people don't get what the problem is. As a man, I was also still clueless about many of the problems this video points out. Becoming aware is the first step to improving. I have been uncomfortable in the few instances it has seemed like Faith Matters was veering into activism. I love this channel and don't want it to be all about activism. But in this case this discuss is very much needed. I feel the social conservativism of our church culture often hurts us. This topic is a the most important example of that. We need to continually progress and improve - D&C 93 says traditions of the fathers are a main way Satan takes away light and knowledge. Our traditions need to be examined in the light of the gospel. This is one reason the restoration is on-going, as Pres. Nelson has said.

[@TruthBTold90]

So if these guests are not seeking for women to be ordained, what specifically are they advocating for that women should be doing in the church that they currently are not? All I hear and sense is dancing around the elephant in the room.

[@jaroldroyc.lubaton6745]

I have a sense that they are both advocating for women to be ordained but as faithful members of the church, I think they try to balance between sustaining the leaders and seeking "progress" for the church to embrace its core doctrine where women and men are divine partners in the work of God. I admire them for doing that. As usual, this episode is inspiring.

[@markchristiansen9611]

Are they advocating for anything, beyond treating women with respect as equals? I've only listened to the first 15 minutes so far. Ordination is not really an elephant in the room, because they acknowledged it at the beginning of the interview.

[@Zelig_G]

And - not treating them as children 👧

[@fstaheli]

One concrete thing they talked about is if we talk of the importance of earthly mothers, why do we not talk more about The importance of heavenly mother? I think that's a valid point. The Book of Mormon teaches more than we realize about Heavenly mother, and so does the temple. We should accentuate that rather than apparently trying to keep it hidden.

[@walkinonsunshine4292]

Yes! GIVE US THE KEYS!! The Keys!! The keys! (Squealed in Hobbit Gollum voice.)

[@matthewmitchell68]

It’s cool to go to a church that allows women to do baptism and also olive oil . No position is restricted from women including leading the church.

[@conniestrong5260]

The above comment does not seem to reflect empathy towards women who are having different experiences and feelings.

[@ginnymart5124]

Men and women are different. I believe that they don't have to be the same to be equal. I believe that if women are ordained that takes a responsibility away from the men. Would you women want to have men advocate to have something that would be taking something away from you? Men have their responsibility and women have their responsibility. May we all fulfill our particular stewardship in the way that God wants us to.

[@americajane8918]

The mothers are typically the ones who have most of the responsibility on Sunday morning getting children fed, up and dressed and out the door for church. To have to come early to usher would be a nightmare and add to a mother’s stress. Give them a break!

[@WalterReade]

Would it help if the church completely switched so that for the next, say, 150 years, only women had the priesthood and not the men? Would this be considered fair?

[@poohandtigger]

Is this a sincere question?

[@WalterReade]

@@poohandtigger It's a thought experiment only. I am, though, sincerely interested in what people think about it as an option.

[@pattyyung]

No, it wouldn't be considered fair. It would just be lopsided in the other direction. In 150 years you have an awful lot of people that never lived in both times. It's like changing laws so men can't vote now for 150 years. If you, as a man can't vote now does that make it fair to a woman who couldn't vote in the 1800s? No, it's not fair to either of you. But even if we are only talking about one man and one woman it isn't about being fair. It is about trying to be the person God wants you to be and if the rules allow that and being able to participate in the great blessings God has in store for us. When you lift others you rise. When you push down others you lower. Taking away priesthood from men just makes things worse for the whole and doesn't create unity.

[@WalterReade]

@@pattyyung I personally wouldn't mind it being unfair to the men for a while.

[@ginnymart5124]

I don't have to have the priesthood to feel important. I am equal but different.

[@rsjenterprises7726]

Blah, blah, blah. More non-sensecal ego conversation. Women have and have always had great power. So much so that many cannot rise to even the most basic of the Lord's expectations of them. The Relief Society's information on member' issues and circumstances surpass anything the male counterparts can accomplish. The Church is set up by the Lord Himself. Those who think they know better, or twist the instructions to mean more than what they are. Not sure myself why the Lord directed things the way he did and does through this, the final dispensation. One should run quickly from the short lived and uninspired path of the worldly ways. My own thought is that those women who feel "short changed " most likely are not listening to the Spirit or accepting the Great Blessing ONLY women can and do receive. If one requires, say a name plate carved in olive wood from the Holy Land to fulfill their personal worth, I'm sure they can be special ordered, haha. Forget asking why women are not called as a Prophet of the Church and spend more time on the question of, if WE are made in God's image what does God really look like😁

[@murraymanitos]

What is the “Great Blessing” that you’re referring to?

[@sdb816]

This IS about ordination. Everyone of these people, when pressed, believe that it SHOULD be so. This is not a political movement. But it’s primarily leftists (an ideology that shouldn’t even exist in the Church) who struggle with the Church’s doctrine on gender roles, views on same sex attraction, etc. Men and women are not the same and that’s okay. We don’t have to have the same roles to have value. The scriptures and the Proclamation on the Family carry more weight than some professor or article. Bottom line: Men are to preside (in righteousness) over the Church and in the home.

[@SharlenPotter]

No. Men are to preside WITH their wives, not over. There is no President or Vice President in the home.

[@sdb816]

@@SharlenPotter That’s simply not doctrine. The Bishop doesn’t preside WITH the Relief Society President. That doesn’t diminish her. They have different roles. So long as the husband (Bishop) is acting in righteousness, his spouse (RSP) should honor and sustain him in his roles, just as he should in hers.

[@emilineharris3724]

Was my comment deleted?

[@denisemilne1330]

Women and the priesthood by Sheri Dew is a wonderful book. Well worth reading.

[@kennyjohnson5361]

I don’t agree with Sr McBaine and can see that she doesn’t really understand priesthood and what men’s and women’s roles are. On the other hand I can that Sr Spalding does. The other thing I noticed was unfairly placing blame on the church for societal issues.

[@mikecarver8166]

To me this conversation is like why dont we have more women or minorites on the supreme court? Frankly i dont care how many women or minorities are on the supreme court as long as they follow our constitution. The supreme court doesnt or shouldn't rule on feelings. It decides on the rule of law. likewise you could fill a room with women and men but ultimately whats decided? It comes down to inspiration from God. I think it feels like "steadying the ark". Of course these men make mistakes but did God choose them? Are they divinely inspired? Is this a " Kingdom" or a "Democracy"? The church has made great strides to be more inclusive. Looking back 50 years is looking back 50 years. Our current leaders are striving to follow Gods will. Until he gives revelation addressing some of these " grievences" I am not what the answer is except "faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel. Concerning the temple endowment- Eve is a huge part of it. She was smart. She saw ahead and what needed to be done. Some religions villify and blame Eve. We honor her. Look, men CANNOT gain the Celestial Kingdom without a woman. We cannot no matter how many meetings we preside at. i also efuse to believe that any woman who prays over a child has as much power as i do as a melchizedek priesthood holder. God will hear and answer a mothers prayer as quickly as any man laying hands on a head. I listened as your guest talked about visiting other church's where women ordain and exercise authroity. Problem is- God doesn't recognize it. Its not bound in Heaven. They do not hold the priesthod of God. I am not trying in the least to minimize feelings. Discussion is good as long as we remember the Lord makes the decisions not men. By the way, i've sat in many ward counsels. Women have a very strong voice in those meetings. I bet its the same way in the church office building. 😊 Some things we discuss thaf I think we probably know less about than what we think.

[@pattyyung]

"Good inspiration is based upon good information" an idea that President Nelson talked about in April 2018 conference which he may have got from Sister Parkin or Sister Kapp who said it earlier is why you should care. When we leave women out then we leave some of the information out which means that those leaders may not get all the inspiration they need.

[@SharlenPotter]

Exactly. You know less about this topic as a "melchizidek priesthood holder" than what you think you do. Your experience as such is to site ward councils where women have had input. But, how would you know? Do you know if they had more to say, felt disrespected, or talked over... or even patronized without truly being heard? You are literally doing here, what these people are calling for an end to. You won't even hear what these women and one man are saying they experience. You. Are. Refusing. To. Hear.