Family Room Remodel Video 3: Recessed Lighting

This video covers the installation of recessed lighting in the first floor of a 2-story house.
Video 1: Fireplace
• Family Room Remodel Vi...
Video 2: Cast Concrete Hearth Stone
• Family Room Remodel Vi...
Video 3: Recessed Lighting
• Family Room Remodel Vi...
Video 4: Tile Flooring
• Family Room Remodel Vi...

[@ViperOne420]

That bowl idea to catch the falling pieces is amazing!

[@MyBigThing2010]

It's sold by Milwaukee and works great....i use it every week.

[@antoniopdiaz7]

The family in the background put a smile on my face ☺

[@justinroscoe2839]

Great advice. Easy to follow. Helped me with my home lighting project!

[@saltsidellc]

Blind drilling is definitely not suggested for the uninsured. But if you are going to do it, I suggest you know where the water and gas shut off valves are. Using a scope can definitely help and stopping as soon as the bit penetrates and checking again with the scope, will help with uneventful drilling.

[@antoineward4475]

It’s a living room. I’m sure there’s no gas line or water line in that area,& I’m sure he checked. You’ll almost never find waterlines or gas lines above the living room area lol.

[@INOOT-INeedOneOfThose]

Oh that sweet angel cheering you on.

[@marshallgoldberg8376]

Terrific video! I've watched a lot and this one answered all my questions. Huge help! Thank you so much for making this.

[@indiadaniel]

Omg 😳

[@mrpeabodythethird]

I would not recommend drilling where you cannot see. - You may end up hitting another wire and not knowing it until it burns up. Flex bits are great but you shouldn't drill through something without knowing what is on the other side. It's better to cut the necessary holes (to see) rather than damaging something and not finding out until it's too late. Trust me on this one, I do this stuff for a living.

[@mark-ml6rp]

Same here. I hate flex bits threw joists. They never run horizontal.. If your not carefull your threw the finished floor above.

[@slappadabass3290]

They sell snake camera for your phone. Helps out a lot

[@jpsum]

Also, it’s best to drill in the center of the hoist

[@aurvaroy6670]

I agree. I felt very uncomfortable watching him use that flex bit. I would've cut out a large section of drywall from the ceiling to expose a couple joists. That way I know what I'm dealing with and I can easily hang that drywall back into its place. It's easier to patch a large hole than a small hole, especially when there's something to screw onto. Luckily I live in a single story house so I have attic access for projects like this. But I plan to move to a two story house, so I like to be prepared sooner than later.

[@steviemaclennan1292]

Agreed

[@moctezumacuauhtemoc8470]

i am about to tackle this in my own home, thanks for your demo and tips!

[@johnnyvalencia8335]

Good video thank you for the ideas this was very helpful and you know haters will hate.

[@jhonnylopez2996]

Drilling light holes dust container great idea buddy. Thnx very helpful

[@rcmen231]

Thanks for making this video. It was very helpful

[@miltonnegron65]

Excellent video Keep up the good work !!!

[@callbackdons]

I like that bowl recycled into a dust catch. Clever idea!

[@EkalbGnilrad]

This has been the best version of a drywall hole saw I’ve ever used. It’s made by Milwaukee.

[@sanatarium1234]

Hey Blake, great info, and a great channel. You provide excellent, and most importantly, correct information to your viewers! Thank you. Keep up the great work. This really helped me plan my recessed lighting project.

[@antoineward4475]

Bullshyt. He edited out all the good stuff.

[@rogerbenitez]

You helped me a lot...! Thank you very much

[@cdurkinz]

Damn nice job, and nice vid. Thanks.

[@asef698]

Some mighty big lights you have there

[@dipunahak5504]

what is price value

[@ckdigwal3767]

it's very hard work crezy time. thanks.

[@tcaver]

Wow came out nice!!!!! Talented. Wish my a husband could do these projects. Save a lot of money.

[@kchididdy]

no talent needed. just motivation and persistence. you can do it too

[@guillermoramos5047]

nice use of the flex bit , having the long extension real help with the angel , i use it to go down walls if attic permits.

[@aydenjacksonjr7017]

Good job . I like your work

[@stewie211]

i have a 6feet flex bit and i love it , but on my last work , the flex bit kick and i have drill directly on the opposite wall , the moment was very funny to see that ahah!

[@kamranayub]

Thanks, this is helpful. I have access to see between all my joists so I won't be drilling blindly, I just wanted to see the technique since I could avoid removing the drywall if I can manage this.

[@uc95nu51]

I'm going to build my dream home by watching KZbin videos.

[@Earthcitizen4609]

I'm have many years as electrician and im impressed how he went through the studs , but if is not your house it's alot of liability if you damage something but is worth the risk if oner wants to take it

[@Sean-mc4iq]

What do you recommend to do? To ensure no damage?

[@truthbebold4009]

@@Sean-mc4iq Unfortunately, sometimes you have to open up the ceiling a little more. I'm thinking of buying a Walbot phone attachment that allows you to see objects inside the wall.

[@bigabe23]

@@truthbebold4009 same here.. you just cut 6inches width of drywall then drill holes on frames then run the wires. After that, you just put that drywall and mud it and sand and paint.. i know a lot of works.. its basically about time. this is a long work or this is shortcut as long as there is no any blocks or pex, or whatever.

[@roikingon7892]

Cool video. Just can't help but wonder why in your finished product, the tv/sound bar wire is on the outside of the wall?!

[@squid4life1]

thanks for the video. Just a curious question as I start my first recessed lighting update in my kitchen. What are all the wire groups going into your switch? did you run wires from each light back to the switch? Could you not have put them in a parallel and daisy chained them with only one wire back to the switch(and one from the power supply)?

[@wm79198]

Why's everyone giving this guy a hard time about drilling blind? It's his house, and he's done a good job. There's no magic device to find out what's in the ceiling. Apart from making holes and looking, all you can do is go by what you know from experience, and look at what's near/ above where he's working. I steer clear of those long drill bits only for the reason that the ones I use are prone to going through the floor above. Nice job on the install

[@EkalbGnilrad]

I appreciate the positive support. Ultimately, I do not claim to be a professional and there is a ton of knowledge in the online community that folks share pretty freely. I know the layout of my house pretty well and I made an educated assumption based on the plumbing and electrical layout of my house that this area was clear of obstructions (I was correct). Ultimately, these discussions have encouraged me to invest in two different styles of metal detector to assist in testing for the presence of pipe or conductor.

[@Methodical2]

It's a lot of work, but when done, you can sit back and enjoy, for a little while, and then think of the next project.

[@blanco36]

Thats mè all the time lol!

[@omaradan8062]

Thanks Nice Job Done

[@jahangirjahangir7324]

Good job

[@Sjaubi-qf6wd]

Awesome video, Never seen it done like this . seemed impossible until you did it whats the name of that long drill bit?

[@GCSol]

I had the same problem with a can light. You have to really make sure the wires are seated in there tight or they will pop out.

[@SielAroma]

Beautiful! Nicely done! What size are those cans and is it same for your accent lighting over the fireplace? I have similar layout and your video really helped me plan my lighting project. Thanks!

[@EkalbGnilrad]

Thanks for the feedback! I used 4” cans for all six lights and opted to change the bulb style for just the wall accents.

[@vyphan5714]

Thanks for video

[@24-7PriorityElectrical]

I use to practice this technique until I drilled thru drain line causing water damage in a home.

[@SinName_NoName]

Lol

[@ViperOne420]

lol

[@emilyxx5296]

lol

[@usefulvidiots7869]

Man, I was wondering about that blind drilling through more than one rafter. I'd probably end up going through the floor above.

[@Methodical2]

what's your method for drilling now?

[@ericguqin]

that drill ..... is a monster

[@damesiojones46]

That was cool

[@hwkfans]

Great video, would have liked video of actual fishing wire. Thank you for the info.

[@EkalbGnilrad]

Thank you! Fishing the wire ended up taking two people and I got sucked into actually getting the work done instead of filming. We ended up using a 10-foot long fish rod to chase the holes the auger made.

[@smash72cutlass30]

Those search bits are risky especially if there’s a bathroom above you. Drilling blind can hit water electric hvac or even flex gas lines. Sometimes it’s easier to take a chalk line and cut out a two ft wide trench and take the drywall out all together. Those lights are also obsolete. Those connectors are dangerous as well easiest is not always safest.

[@adofilth]

I used Gree Lee flexbits they do work eat , with nice 3/4 auger bit cuts like a knife through a butter.

[@miltonnegron65]

Great video !!!

[@homejadiri1851]

good job

[@matthewedison3124]

A little story for you. During my apprenticeship I was instructed never to use push-in wire connectors by my Journeyman for that exact reason. Also drilling blindly(I assume blindly because of how its shown in the vid) is a terrible idea. Especially that close to the HVAC.

[@scottcoleman7304]

What are you supposed to do if there are no other options other than to blind drill?

[@Kaneneville]

@@scottcoleman7304 I think you can use endoscope to check before drilling.

[@DrewBerryFritz]

@@Kaneneville This is my solution also. Just use a flexible camera to see what's in each bay. The only issue is trying to find the hole again with the drill bit. You can also look around the room to see if any hvac or plumbing might be feeding a vent or plumbing or electrical device. If there's nothing in the room then you're probably good to drill, but if there is something and you think it's traveling across your bay then the endoscope is best.

[@malawigold747]

​@@Kanenevillehow would u see whats on the other side of the joist tho?

[@Joeyhiphop-to7xt]

How long is that flexible drill bit ?

[@NMranchhand]

Super video, thanks. I've always wondered about this blind drilling the first floor joists. How do you control the placement of the hole on sequential joists with that long extension such that you don't end up with a series of holes bored through the top inch of each joist?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

That’s actually exactly what you end up with. The flex bit is designed to ride against the sheathing of the second story floor and drill through the top of each joist it encounters.

[@douglashughes2331]

What is you have an attic with no access and no floor above to run your drill against? Any trick there?

[@mberlynne565]

What did you use for the drill bit and extension? Thanks! Cool video

[@goosecouple]

Nice. You got video on how you install the surveillance cameras?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

They came with the house, but the previous owner ran all the Cat5 along the outside of the house and came through the walls in a few places. I would go wireless if I were starting from scratch.

[@CarlosSanchez-zc1gf]

Did you keep that outlet still controlled by the switch ? Or did you disable the outlet to be controlled to the switch ?

[@8989griff]

How do you fish that far through those tiny holes with a fish tape?

[@kellyq21]

After you cut the three holes with the flex bit, then pull the bit out, how were you able to find the holes again to fish the wires through?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

The Klein bit has a pulling eye on the end of the pilot drill, so you can attach fish tape with bailing wire and pull the bit back through the holes it made. Make sure to leave plenty of slack in the bailing wire to allow you to run the drill backwards to help it get back through the joists. You also have to "unwind" the wire after each joist.

[@kellyq21]

But that assumes you can find the tip of the drill bit after you are done cutting the holes. I was asking how to find the holes after they are cut and the bit has been removed from the ceiling.

[@EkalbGnilrad]

If you have removed the bit already, sometimes you can successfully get a fish rod back through the holes, but in my experience, you can also run the boring tool back through the same way you originally drilled and it will generally find the holes pretty easily. One way or another, you need some sort of fishing tool to get romex into the holes. Maybe I failed to mention that the boring tool needs to be daylighted at each end for this all to work (recessed can hole-to-recessed can hole.)

[@MrLaptopus]

I wish this was shown on the video

[@EkalbGnilrad]

You don't pull the bit out. The auger has a hole to attach a pulling eye on the end of the bit. You attach the romex via a pulling grip and SLOWLY run the drill in reverse as you pull the auger through each joist. It is important to run the drill forward after each joist to avoid twisting the romex too much.

[@tcbridges]

What was that container you used to keep the dust down when you drilled the holes. I loved that and need one of those. Thanks

[@edgarrojas9425]

home depot drywall bit 20 bucks it is adjustable

[@Wjohnson8437]

I am not a electrician but agree. The old method just work the best in this situation. I have experienced issues with snap on electrical. Work for cars at times, not home. One more thing you did not show how the box is attaching without nailing to stud. I think I know but was wondering if something new is availability since I don't frequently get into this need.

[@mikeg1433]

William Johnson He used an “old work” gang box which typically has plastic ears that flip outwards and draw tight against the wall when tightening the screws. Just in case your still wondering about this a year after you commented.

[@joaquinlopez997]

Great idea using that tupperware as a dust collector ! & i never knew the upside down plug meant its switched ,thanx. Question. Does drilling threw trust weaken it ? Is there a requirement of where the hole should be placed ?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

Thanks for your comment! That hole saw is a game-changer, I have found a few different versions at the big box home stores. Drilling through floor joists can cause weakness. Every region has its own codes, but the hole location is usually restricted to the outer 1/3 of the joist’s unsupported length. Please check and understand the building code in your region before drilling holes.

[@gusolive]

Genius guy!

[@cuauvaz]

I wanted to see how the wire was fished from every hole

[@sam111880]

I do see the benefit of these long flexible spade bits , however sometimes it seems much easy /faster just to take out a piece of drywall and then drill your hole then just install drywall back/Spackle over. I guess I like to see a situation when one uses these flexible bits and it actually safe you in material cost alot over just patching a few drywall pieces and not dealing with this type of extra equipment.

[@Chaielectric]

What flex drill bit did you use?

[@ramirorosiles7448]

Where can you buy that long flexible drill bit?

[@oliviobarreto1919]

Good video 😃

[@EkalbGnilrad]

Thank you!

[@spencerwalker5671]

What was your box fill?

[@faithful5475]

Where can I get that in UK that long drill bit

[@alexiscueto5228]

good job man! i have questions what can of drill bit extension you used for this project? i need one of those. thanks

[@EkalbGnilrad]

That tool is called the Flex Bit by Klein tools. I also used the extension Klein sells to get the bit through several joists.

[@6767kelso]

@@EkalbGnilrad Have you used the Greenlee D'VersiBIT ? Trying to decide between this and the Klein one. Lot of people complained in comments about the Klein one dulling and breaking to easily.

[@SJ-nl6xl]

@@6767kelso which one did you get greenlee or Klein?

[@LoveLove-cj7bu]

Where you bought this extension bit?

[@RioDeParras1]

Do you don’t have attic access to climb in to attic and make it easier

[@nrocci84]

Hey Blake....how do you prevent the flex bit from walking up too high on the joists? And also, how did you fish the wire through?

[@nrocci84]

I just read how you fish the wire through.....but still curious how you prevent the walking of the bit.

[@rpetronk]

you could use the bending tool with the flex bit - its a wire handle that bends the shaft the degrees you need . But like some have commented a lot of potential danger drilling blind.

[@Jarut]

What is the bit called that you used to cut the 6" holes for the can lights?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

That is a Milwaukee adjustable drywall hole saw and it's a pretty slick tool if you cut holes in drywall often.

[@bgwhalley]

Where do I get a long drill bit like that?

[@franciscomelenciano3326]

Where can I purchase the flexible drill bit with bumper ball in pa

[@TheMrbuckeye3]

So. . .I see you drilling holes and then wire magically appears? Can you share that magical spell with the rest of us?

[@elyh777]

Looks like a lot of these comments are the same. I’m sure everyone can drill a hole for the light and drill through the joists blindly (at their own risk) but I was hoping for more info. If I already have a single light in the room, can I not just use that wire to feed all the new pot lights? Why did you run 2 wires instead of one? Thanks

[@jaydee3046]

A question about using the flex bit in a wall: How do you avoid missing the center of the stud? Seems you could blow the edge distance and have a wire in danger of being hit with a nail by someone else years later?

[@stevensmith1268]

For a run of joists you cut a large enough hole in drywall to drill the first hole of joist center. Run 3/4" PVC pipe that was cut the length to cross all the joists to be cut or length of your Klein tools Flexible drill bit kit. Now you feed the PVC through hole till it hits the next joint...this will hold flex bit on center for next joist...and so on down the line. When done there is a sleeve for the flex bit that attaches to the wire to pull the wire through the just cut holes. You may leave the pipe in once finished or pull it out for the next set of joists. The pipe is less than $4 at home depot.

[@fraisdegout]

@@stevensmith1268 That's brilliant....even just a simply tightly fit piece of pvc pipe through the first joist until it butts up against the next joist will ensure that the bit continue to go straight for any other remaining joists. I'm about to start a project like this, so this will be of great help, thank you.

[@rogpic15]

@@stevensmith1268 I know this is a year old but I was just thinking about this exact thing! I'm glad I'm not the oy one. I am about to do 6 rooms for this guy and all the rooms need lights lol. Built in the 40s. I did one already but thought of this last night. Does the PVC need to be flexible? How would one keep feeding it through if it's rigid?

[@HugDeeznueces]

Please tell me where did you get that flex bit. Brand/model. Can't seem to find them locally. Thanks man!!

[@EkalbGnilrad]

I found mine at The Home Depot where they keep the conduit, terminal connectors, and assorted electrical tools. It's called the Flex Bit by Klein Tools. You can also find the tool on Amazon named: "Klein Tools 53751 Flex Bit Auger, 3/4 by 72-Inch"

[@abaidaramex2818]

Rob its from home depo in tool section

[@abaidaramex2818]

Blake Darling hi can you tell me which toll he use for ceilling hole with drill?

[@HugDeeznueces]

how do you think your cable installer runs his wires through the wall? they do not have an x-ray machine. it's a gamble.

[@jazzyboydc]

Yeah buddy. Sign up for amazon referal links. U can make a cash comission off of people purchasing the flex bit. I would look into it

[@awkumbuner5727]

Nice ...what the name of this tool????

[@randomodbuild]

What tool did you use to drill holes in the ceiling joists? (The auger on a stick)

[@EkalbGnilrad]

It’s called the Flex Bit by Klein. I linked to the bit somewhere in the comments below.

[@larryevans8924]

where did you get the drill extension?

[@tonyspigarolo9953]

Ive had soooo many problems with those push connectors. Cut, twist cap! I always test them all before i set old work boxes, thats just me.....

[@Purifiedinfire]

Are they suppose to be stripped thought, I thought they were IDC connectors like telecom, the little teeth/gates grab the insulation.

[@RohitYadav-vt8yp]

@Blake darling, need advice. Our builder is doing either of the led or pendant, but we want to get both installed as we want a pendant over the dining table. What should we do get the led installed and get done the pendants later, can the switch for led work can be resued for pendant.

[@EkalbGnilrad]

Hello and thanks for watching! Pendants and recessed lights are completely different fixtures. Recessed lights have a junction box attached to the top of the can whereas a pendant relies on a ceiling-mount junction box to both suspend the pendant and provide a box for the wiring connections. The best option, if you can’t decide which way to go, would be to install the smallest recessed light you really need (4” perhaps) and make sure the hole in the ceiling is not any larger than that required by the ceiling junction box (to be installed in the future with the pendants).

[@Petersonelectricllc]

How is the wires on the back side of the wall in the furnace room? did you conceal the wires or switch legs. Also, you are risking drilling through plumbing and wires and other LV cables or ducts when not checking between the joists. Better to drill 4" holes in the center of the bays and patch or use a scope. Too risky.

[@jccol4464]

As an electrician i have to say that those flexible bits are not my favorites, they could damage a water pipe or some other wire running along the stud your are drilling and in that case you are done . for me i rather cut and patch but dont take the chance.

[@jesanmorales100]

What is the part number for the extension rods you are using ?

[@bmwmike3534]

Just a bit of advice... I am an eletrician and will NEVER EVER use those quick connectors. I havr been called on service calls to hunt down issues with recessed lights and its always one of those damn connectors. Over time and with heat they just wiggle their way out. I ALWAYS cut off, strip, twist, and wire nut and then tape. I want to be sure to NEVER have to take that can down.

[@EkalbGnilrad]

This has been my conclusion as well. I liked the convenience until I was pulling a light down immediately after install.

[@michaelrichardson5505]

funny, i've installed probably 300+ (some new construction) cans, always used the quick clips & NEVER had a call back

[@bmwmike3534]

Michael Richardson because after you are long gone i am the guy who gets called to figure out why their lights aint working lol...

[@jitendrasingh-rr4ny]

BMW Mike

[@quacktony]

Wire Nuts FTW.

[@flanks1198]

Recommend to all diy viewers cut off the wegos and/or the orange connectors and strip then twist your wires & put a wire nut to hold the connection

[@BryantAvant]

Can I get a link to your flex bit? I can not find anything that flexible

[@johnames6430]

use a multi-tool to precision cut the pieces and repair with a drywall repair kit, then paint. It's less time consuming. You will need to buy a gallon of paint though.

[@rojodo7176]

How do you know there arent any hvac or plumbing pipes in the way?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

The honest answer is that I didn’t cut open any exploratory holes to check for plumbing or electrical, but I was fairly certain I didn’t have water or electricity in the lane I was drilling due to the complete absence of water facilities in this portion of the house, as well as the location of the water service and other plumbing in the house. This probably isn’t a very satisfying answer, but there are locating tools available to trace metallic pipes in the walls, also, many stud finders can detect electricity in the wall.

[@stewie211]

it's true , i use many time the flex bit ( 6 feet ) but you need to check the possibility of plumbing pipe ( toilet room or something close), i use my phone to watch what i can in the hole. But the risk is here.

[@indiadaniel]

WOW 😯

[@williamlast5657]

Great video! I was wondering if I am looking to install 4 cans off of a second unused power from my ceiling fan. My question is am I able to use the existing box from the ceiling fan or relocate the wire from the wall switch to the closest can then connect the rest from there?

[@EkalbGnilrad]

From your description, it sounds like you have a run of 3/1 Romex from your existing wall switch to the fan box with the red wire terminated to nothing. You should consult your governing code, but I have branched a light circuit from a ceiling box in this manner before. In my case, I installed a single-gang double switch at the wall and connected my red and black wires to their respective hot terminals on the switch, then shared the common in the fan box to branch out to my cans.

[@shanej8605]

It's called 14/3 romex not 3/1. And you should honestly drop the hot wire from the fan box to your switch. Cause if anything were to happen in the future you would end up having to remove the fan or whatever fixture you have in place( once the electrician finally finds out the junction is in fan box and not switch)

[@frankiec5570]

How do you fish wire like that for the first floor?

[@atiqulny]

where do I find that long drill extension

[@edwardbarraza4848]

Your mom's lol jk

[@Methodical2]

Home Depot sells them.

[@jeffbrent]

a $15 circuit detective will also identify which breaker goes to which outlet....great investment

[@cleeeeg8]

Blind drilling could end up a bit mistake

[@Steviethegr8]

Was waiting for a water burst video, you’ve got a lot of balls drilling that blind lol

[@ryanhallquist6608]

Same here brother. Never blind drill. SMH. He got lucky.

[@gregberban9273]

I have done 100's of those same applications, never would I ever use that extension but, you could drill through plumbing vent , plumbing drain , electric service cable , water lines , that's a deal breaker for me .

[@markosimcic6536]

based on the floor above you its pretty easy to get an idea where your vents are and if there is no bathroom there is no plumbing to worry about

[@gregberban9273]

Wow you are soooooo smart, not really..

[@raymustafa9505]

What method did you use to fish the wiring throw the small holes you drilled ?

[@DzinEye]

flex bits have a hole in the bit so once drilled through, you attach wire to the bit using the hole then pull it back out with the wire attached.

[@abaidaramex2818]

Whats the name off tool you made hole in the ceilling with drill?

[@lorenguaylg]

Abaid Aramex klein recessed whole saw.

[@nrocci84]

www.walmart.com/ip/KLEIN-TOOLS-53731-Quick-Cutter-Adjustable-Hole-Saw-G0605851/120240994?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=3354&adid=22222222227048139091&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=146925758091&wl4=aud-310687321802:pla-256276015110&wl5=9019748&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=113505977&wl11=online&wl12=120240994&wl13=&veh=sem

[@tuanvuong9924]

Have you ever drill through the plumbing pipe or electrical wires behind the stud by accident

[@EkalbGnilrad]

No, I have not drilled through existing utilities. It is important to open inspection holes between joists or use a metal detector with electric current detection capabilities before drilling blindly.

[@timdouglass4934]

I was a remodeling contractor licensed since 1986. On projects like this I open drywall. Your going to have to open drywall to get thru the top plates. Its not that much more work repairing multiple holes versus one hole. Drywall is easy to repair and you'll get a better job. I don't blind cut or drill any thing . If you do it will eventually bite you in the butt. Concerning remodeling cans, I try to not to use them. The clips just don't hold them secure.

[@bobhunter3050]

I have that flex bit and doesn’t always come out where it is suppose too. Holes where you don’t want them . Customer not happy when this happens !!