Fanstoys Knock Offs

[@BotsandBits]

KFT Phoenix was an April fools from years ago.

[@MythsAndHeroes]

Disregard that then. It was challenging to keep the whirlwind on insanity this week straight.

[@Kickback-dm7zt]

@@MythsAndHeroes regardless of what something is worth I think Steve Sansweet said it best at a starwars convention from a few years ago.. He was asked by a fan /collector how much a particular item was worth and his response was "it's worth what you paid for it".

[@Kickback-dm7zt]

@@MythsAndHeroes I don't think hasbro can legally do anything about the 3rd party leo primes as the official leo prime is a TAKARA design and product.. Its part of the japanese only beast wars line (either beast wars the 2nd or beast wars neo) and neither of these toy lines were imported by hasbro to sell in their markets.. But I'm sure Takara could take a case against the 3rd party companies... Btw Bandai actually got at least 2 gundam ko companies shut down.

[@cameronmoriarty3313]

Thanks, I was coming down to say I thought that was an older "announcement" that nothing came from. I had forgotten it being April Fools.

[@jkliao6486]

@@Kickback-dm7zt KO are different story vs 3rd party, based on the fact that the police department that cracked down weijiang gave a green light to the 3rd party product.

[@joey159213]

"You don't challenge a company by stealing from them . You challenge them by being better then them"... well said! Great vid!

[@ironhide0079]

Also: "...all is fair in love and war, specifically in business, and business is pretty cutthroat...it doesn't have to be, but it often is."

[@inflewence]

Very great points and convo as usual!

[@DolkkarToyznstuff]

100% Bobby! It's appreciated that you've taken the time to break this all down for those that are struggling with all of this.

[@aaronkarwath2381]

Yo Skully! This is probably the most thoughtful video I've watched on transformers, third party, IP and capitalism and their combined/intertwined impact on each other in sometime. Keep up the great work!

[@alphatrion100]

I will buy them all if the price is right. Sorry 😅 Im not taking any of fanstoys buisness away because i dont pay fanstoys prices. I DO pay transform element prices. Those guys have found a great balance between quality and price.

[@scottblanco5991]

As someone who has to watch their budget I can’t agree more! Great designs on their figures!

[@alphatrion100]

@@scottblanco5991 Mate TE mirage and TE optimus are fantastic! Solid builds with diecast parts... Paid 60 and 90 euros for them. I was never in the market for mp44 at 450. I dont spend that kind of money on toys. Not per purchase anyway.

[@chrchaves]

Amen

[@Borgron]

Yeah, I don't think it's entitlement as much as it's the notion that paying super high prices simply sucks the joy out of the hobby for a lot of people. Unless Bobby's referring to another subset of people I'm unaware of? I mean just look at Warhammer 40k. I was actually about to get into when I learned of GamesWorkshop's business practices. Suffice to say I think I dodged a major bullet there!

[@adamluther5836]

I have so many mixed feelings on this. FansToys have made a lot of really dick moves over the years, and helped perpetuate some of the hostility in the fandom. I don't at all agree with the idea that they "deserved" this, but at the same time, I can't help but feel they helped create many of the circumstances that would inevitably lead to someone doing this. As far as them blacklisting retailers who carry KOs of their products, that sorta perpetuates the negativity against them as well. I think if they really wanted to fight this, they'd rerelease more of their own product and price it competitive against the KO, or offer some incentive to warrant buying from them and undercut the KO company into heavy losses. As stated. many retailers have already struggled to move FT products with their increased prices, and many of the companies willing to carry a KO would likely already be catering to customers with smaller budgets anyways, so the loss of their shipments might make little difference to them, maybe even embolden them to carry even more KOs of FT releases in the future.

[@edmundolastra3279]

I'm so out of the loop on this stuff that your video is the first I'm hearing of this, thanks :)

[@Chris_Davis_music]

Great video Bobby. Thanks for making Saturday mornings great! Still looking forward to a FT Past Present and Future pt 2. Cheers from Newfoundland!

[@lareh5501]

Ironic, I happened to be eating Walmart 'not-oreo' cookies yesterday when tyderium hanger was talking about this; and this morning, I happened to be eating Walmart's "not-pop tarts." Both of which, I'll say are a *great value*

[@GibDozer1]

Yeah, and you bought them because you like poptarts and oreos. Not because you love twist&shouts or frosted toaster pastries. You purchased what they represent, not what they are. That's the same reason people buy Fanstoys and the reason FT KOs will be a Great Value.

[@mauigio]

Love the overall lens at which you present this. Never thought the day would come when i would see people break down Transformers or Star Wars collectibles in the same financial/market breakdown Shows how much decision and passion there is in this "sport" You rock Bobby! Keep up the amazing work! 😻🎩

[@scottblanco5991]

When you mentioned about Fanstoys releasing images of the same characters other companies are doing, the badcube huff and gears were undercut by them. The Blaster and Cliffjumper were as well. They’re years out from production. Good point I never noticed Bobby.

[@ryanem49]

Xtb did the same thing to Vectron labs. Their first constructicon isn’t for 18 months at the earliest.

[@D0nnyB0y]

I don't approve of hard work being knocked-off or stolen, whether it be third-party or first. However I hope, like you said, that this sends a message to FT to maybe... consider more re-issues of popular releases. Such as Lupus with Chomp due any week now. They know that these pieces will sell fast and well. Maybe this is a case of them being hoisted by their own petard? Who knows. Fantastic SDS as always, Bobby!

[@Enzo_Matrix92]

Mehh, MP BW Megs is like 400$ canadian and everyone and their grandma say it breaks easy. I bought the KO and saved 300 bucks.

[@GibDozer1]

@@Enzo_Matrix92 And that's the bottom line!

[@zim129]

Reissues with appropriate prices.

[@TAURON85]

I disagree. FT provide quality and great design so I support them gladly with my money, however Has/Tak is a mega-company who produces crap for fortune now for a while and I absolutely despise them and whenever they get robbed by getting KO'd, I feel joy! 🖕😌

[@kamenridergeiz9490]

@@TAURON85 fans toys don’t support the demand however. The only reason they are doing a reissue of there Cyclonus is simply g due to it being KOd. Fanstoys stuff sells out really really quickly too.

[@quagmirefx]

There's a huge difference between profit and greed. A lot of company's and people need to learn that lesson.

[@leonleon3267]

As somebody who was a big fanstoys fan i'll straight up say this "you reap what you sew" i'm not surprised of a lot of ill will directed in fanstoys direction and i feel like it's well deserved and if anything it seems to be getting a lot worse, i think the price of chomp is the tipping point for a lot of people

[@MisterMeanerOU812]

But what about those of us that have no problem with the price? Should everything that people can’t afford be knocked off or force the manufacturer to lower the price so everyone can afford their products?

[@sssspider]

If there’s a market for it? Then yes.

[@GareWorks]

Agreed. In fact, I haven't pre-ordered Chomp for that exact reason. I'm going to wait to see if the price dumps like Tesla's did, and if it does, _then_ I'll pick him up.

[@GareWorks]

@@MisterMeanerOU812 Then vote with your wallet. That's up to you. But there's subjective worth and objective worth. I paid the $200 for Tesla 2.0 because it was subjectively worth it to me but it's obviously objectively overpriced. If you have no problem with the price, that's fine, but that only means it's worth it to you subjectively. Chomp is still overpriced based on the cost of production. Now, I'm sure you'll say "but we don't know the price of production" or some such, but it's obvious they're overcharging when reissues can cost twice as much or, for example, their Bombshell can cost up to $100 more for a differently coloured chest. This isn't news to anyone - FansToys overcharges. So buy it if you want, but the solution we're ultimately looking for is to get more people realising the _objective_ worth of a product and not just buy it at any price, because then prices will get lower for everyone. THAT isn't forcing the manufacturer to do anything - that is the free market. That's how capitalism works, and that's (for now) the society we live in, so we should use it to our advantage instead of letting companies walk all over us. Or you can buy your $2000 iPhone and consume more product, I guess. The best part is it's your choice, no matter what I may think.

[@GibDozer1]

@@MisterMeanerOU812 Conversely should everyone have to pay more because you can afford to? You're willing to judge those who support affordable options, with no introspection to how you helped price them out of toy collecting? Now you'll be upset because they have the option to own the figure. Why does that diminish what you already have? I would think you'd be happy for your fellow collectors to have an opportunity to enjoy the toy.

[@race2thebottomii542]

I dont have any fake accounts and I'm glad their is a ko company doing good work as all these 3rd parties were at one time kos themselves

[@YasapYaakov018]

Great perspective.. love it

[@polarisrustinpeace1797]

This conversation is way too intelligent for me. I don't even know what a woman is.

[@erikpatterson120]

In my mind I am always going to buy the best looking, most well built, and less expensive toy. I don’t care if it is made by Hasbro, Takara, Fans Toys or a KO. Its all about the best quality for value. I will over pay for a figure like the new Takara Seekers if the quality was there, which it’s not (knee issues) so instead I move to Deformation Space or a Takara Seeker KO.

[@brenoferreiraferreira4409]

You said it all Bobby and I 100% agree with everything you said. The preorder strategy FT uses were they make it seem like their preorders will stock out in minutes by only allowing a couple of units to be listed just so they can create the illusion of rarity to then raise the prices as soon as the item is actually released is also unfair for the consumers. I don't know if this is done by FT themselves, by the retailers or by both but I think the retailers wouldn't be doing this without FT's consent. Go check the last four released items from FT/RP all of them stocked out as fast as they were up for preorder but now, after the actual release, they are still in stock and most even dropped back to the retail price or lower.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

Meh, sounds like good business on their part. For one, their figures are quality. Two, NO ONE can force you to buy them. It's a pretty smart strategy to build up hype.

[@GareWorks]

I usually prefer to get an authentic product, but I admit I'm not above buying KOs giving the right circumstances. I definitely don't think anyone has moral superiority here, but there is definitely merit to people like Floro Dery getting shafted by companies like Hasbro (at least, according to him). I also agree that you don't deserve anything but, at the very least, I think this might make FansToys eat some humble pie - make their prices reasonable and reissue more products. Astrotrain, for example, I missed out on because I couldn't get a pre-order. Had the money, didn't have a pre-order, and then the price sky-rocketed and I said "nope" because it wasn't worth NZ$500 or whatever it was to me.

[@Kickback-dm7zt]

Ft are just not worth it.. Overly complicated and overly engineered and most definitely NOT worth the money... The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[@kaizozhang15]

There has also been a rumor circulating in the Chinese community that FT's designer sold those designs to those ko companies.

[@scrambledcitycustomz8134]

That's exactly what i thought, designer must of been piss at ft, so he sold his work

[@scottrenfer2735]

Great job putting this case together, detective Skully. Keep up the good work!

[@PerspectiveEnd]

As someone who personally REALLY DOES NOT want the Vast majority of FT stuff, I think the bulk of it all looks terrible, I do understand why people feel entitled to their molds if they want them. The problem with FT is that they aren't just figures, but a Brand. And that brand likes to treat it self very much like Apple, and so they've developed a following of dare I say more well off fans, with money to burn and no idea what the best figure is, who simply want it as a Status thing. So their figures sell out to a mostly exclusive demographic of people who's only qualifications are they have a lot of money, and don't care what they are buying as long as it's the most expensive one, therefor to their mind's the best one, therefor "I am of the highest status". Believe me I know the type, I have a family member who's that exact type of person, who "buys the best" when that means the most expensive, and therefor they are superior to all you peasants who don't, even though they can't tell you thing 1 about why what they buy is better, other than they charge more for it therefor it must be good. This leaves a large swath of people who aren't as well off, but still want the Fanstoys for some different reason, as if they aren't paying the premium, then they aren't after the thing the richer Fanstoys fans are after. So why should they be left out when the people who are preventing them from getting the stuff they want are yuppie assholes, and fanstoys them selves because they realized they can get richer on less work by selling to the yuppie assholes. So there's a market of people who want to get in on that stuff, who just doesn't have the money to pay the inflated prices, that result from that system. And I think those people deserve to have someone catering to them. It doesn't matter that I hate what I see with FT, if someone else wants their stuff, I think they deserve to be able to acquire it at a price that won't leave them hungry at the end of the day.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

Not sure I trust a man who says he doesn't like Fan Toys.

[@PSYCHOWORLD]

I love these intelligent conversations and alot of good points made I agree with everything said

[@glassjar7814]

Dope hoodie Bobby. Have a good weekend

[@scrambledcitycustomz8134]

Great points!! Great vid 🤜🤛

[@OrinThomas]

Copyright is an area of Intellectual Property Law (even says so in the first line of the wikipedia article). As for testing the waters with law, Harmony Gold seemed to have used litigation and the threat thereof (even when they failed) as enough of a stick to get others to behave in a particular way. Simply because even if you fail at a case, most people can't afford the legal fees and just because you win doesn't always mean you get your legal costs back. Many settle cases not because they will lose, but because it will cost too much to win.

[@TheMattTrakker]

Yeah, his understanding of law and how it's used is very questionable.

[@N1thunderfan]

a wise man once said, "its not about the money, its about sending a message"

[@transfanstoys365]

"I have nothing BUT, contempt for this court!"

[@esdv4296]

Little did we know thay this video is the spiritual successor to the "NO KO OK" video. Still very enjoyable as always!

[@nighttrain357]

FansToys just really needs to drop their prices. MakeToys Downbeat is my definitive JAZZ. I'm NOT waiting for FansToys Jazz.

[@nighttrain357]

@@Scro10m So, FansToys should keep their prices high!? Haha (jk) Someone has deep pockets!

[@drewc9169]

I've been looking at my collection and when I saw this ko I thought, I want going to get a second Cyclonus but for a really cheap version, might be worth it. I ended up pre-ordering the reissue cause I know I love the fig is an OK price and I won't spend $80 end up with crap only to spend another $220 or more of I miss out POs.

[@superquad7]

"That's how we go from scallywags to Skully Shrugs." That's my new favorite quote. :)

[@peterblock1089]

Copyright actually is a type of intellectual property. Other forms of intellectual property are trademarks and patents. In this instance, there's no question that this stuff is IP theft. And I say that as a lawyer who has litigated cases. But there are realities about filing IP lawsuits. It might not be worth the cost of litigating an expensive IP lawsuit in another country, when its not clear that your'e going to be able to enforce the court decision, and where it's not entirely clear that the IP theft is having any impact on your ongoing business.

[@TheMattTrakker]

Or that you'd even be able to collect damages or actually stop production, should your judgement be enforced. These companies have shown they're capable of just shutting down, changing their name and reopening.

[@awesomeguy9513]

I was shocked to see the price of the insecticon set. I wanted to get the 3 insecticons in some form but 529.99 US I ain’t even looking at that and went with the Planet X figures yes it’s not G1 but I can still recognize them as insecticons and for 129.99 US that went over much better

[@lindyxmjh4589]

Good video, but I think I have to disagree on a few points Bobby. One is the moral superiority of what a 3P like Fanstoys does versus the KO, cause while KO's definitely are doing other companies dirty both are technically still in the wrong. At the end of the day 3P is taking what doesn't belong to them from Hasbro to make a profit. And yes while Hasbro isn't a person and makes money off the backs of work for hire creators (something that has become a hot button issue in the modern day of billion dollar franchises), at least the company did pay those creators something somewhere down the line, which is more than can be said for 3Ps who are only in it for personal profit and aren't exactly taking the moral high ground and paying royalties here either. Plus the whole "well I feel Hasbro is in the wrong so it's ok if FansToys is in the wrong, too" is kind of a weak argument, two wrongs don't make a right. Second is that Hasbro doesn't sue because they think there's a chance they might lose. I sincerely doubt that is the case, as I'm sure they would disagree that a few stylistic differences and calling your Prime something clever like "OP-1" would be enough to sway a judge and that they think they would win (or be able to appeal until they did or at least until the other side goes bankrupt from legal fees). I think instead the only reason they don't sue is because they can't. How can they sue these companies when they're all hiding in China or East Asia where the law and courts don't care about protecting Western IPs? Even if Hasbro took these companies to court in the U.S., how could those rulings even be enforced when governments like China's would never uphold the rulings of a foreign American court? It might be different if FansToys was say in Canada, but clearly theirs and other 3P companies' location has a distinct legal advantage. Plus it's not just Transformers, 3P is just what we're most familiar with but IP theft of other brands is also quite rampant with little to nothing companies can do about it by legal means, at least without say throwing millions upon millions year after year at the problem to get the Chinese to do something about it like Disney does, but you can probably count on one hand how many companies there are that can afford to do that (and Hasbro really isn't in the position to be one of them).

[@TheMattTrakker]

You nailed it with the second point.

[@GrimLocke161]

Scalpers don't deserve thousands of dollars for figures. Long live the knock offs.

[@mark4flair376]

Bobby "loves KO's and FT, so what could be better than that Mack?" Face!

[@capencowl]

How do pre orders run out?! Why wouldn’t Any company want to know how much of a product to make so they can have a good estimate and make the most profit?

[@LapisBlock]

I don't think companies should really own designs and art like they do, I support 3rd party even if I don't buy a lot of it. I do think with that being said, KOs are a part of that if KOs are coming then you've done something wrong especially if people are buying them. I think the reason why takara mp KOs have only gotten more and more frequent is because of how insane their prices are and how many QC problems the figures have.

[@ericpoulin7922]

A couple years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of owning a KO of anything. Now I have a couple only of Takara and only because the price point doesn't match the goods. MP-52 was my third KO, IT-01 MP-36 was the second. The quality is just as good if not better for a fraction of the price. I don't mind paying more for an original if it's better but that's not the case anymore.

[@GibDozer1]

The artist and writers were hired to create for the company. Since they sold their time and talents to said company the company should own the fruits of that labor. I mean that's what they paid for right? I've got zero love for faceless corporate entities, but it does feel like they are the ones who made the initial investment. Then continued reinvesting over the course of decades to maintain the relevance of the characters and lore. Tell me again why they shouldn't own it?

[@GareWorks]

I tend to agree with why KOs have become so prolific. I bought MP-36, but then KOs with better quality control came out. If it wasn't a hassle to sell it, I'd happily trade MP-36 for one of the superior KOs. When I'm spending that much money, I should be getting the superior version, not the people buying the KO. The same thing happened with MP-44 but that was almost twice the price. Or look at Hound, who basically crumbles once he's out of the box (assuming he doesn't arrive that way) - you could buy that QC nightmare, or you could spend half the price and get a KO that can hold itself together. People don't just buy KOs because they're cheaper. Sometimes the real deal isn't actually worth any amount of money.

[@LapisBlock]

@@GibDozer1 Sounds like you do have love for faceless corporate entities

[@GibDozer1]

@@LapisBlock Recognizing the legitimacy of ownership isn't love or loyalty. Just acknowledging the reality of the situation. I still support KOs and 3P even though I consider both to be stealing from the faceless corporate giant. My endorsement of it doesn't make it right or ethical. I just care more about my wants than Hasbros profit margins.

[@CarmP]

Absolutely brilliant. Well thought out with incremental evidence and a fascinating conclusions that suggest larger consequences. Just, wow. Thank you so much for sharing!

[@ESO_PRIME]

Great video!

[@TheCandymannnn]

We aren't left with nothing... We'll have Takara....you'll all have takara..... And maybe our great grandkids will be able to finish the collection off for us at the rate they do things.

[@drewc9169]

I think the entitlement comes from how collecting has evolved. It used to be we all collected hasbro, it was do able on most budgets and if needed you could pass on figures and it wouldn't affect your collection. Then MPs come along and still they're coming out show enough most people can afford it. Then 3P comes out. They started off in the $100s range and were supplementing official releases, and most people could still keep up. Then the 3p wars really kick off and people choose what they want and some can keep to a cheaper budget and still have a good mp collection. FF to now those people that have been collecting MP for years are getting priced out of what they can afford and there aren't as many options meaning if you want a scarf you get the LV or you don't get a scarf. I think that's where the entitlement is coming from they've been able to keep up in the past but now there are fewer options and the price is higher. Also anyone wanting to get into mp collecting is paying late tax and can't belive skullface has every character at $150+. They think it's gotta be so able cause so many people have these collections, they don't realize this is the work of years of collecting and being on top of your preorders not paying secondary or reissue prices.

[@constantinsilverfox5249]

Is the part of the community that's pissed about these Fans Toys ko's pissed because it's a FT product or pissed with ko's in general? This adds another dimension to the discussion too. Great as always Bobby!

[@brainarddesign6853]

Interesting informative , video, honestly i thought the KFT company stood for Knockoff Fans Toys as a dig to them 😅 thanks for posting

[@StockpileHobbies]

Awesome video Bobby! If you're a Fantoys collector you now need to be hyper aware of what you're buying and paying for. KOs kill the trust in buying merchandise. You can easily get swindled for something you think is the real deal, only to find out that its junk. It creates a lot of confusion and distrust in the market. You really need to know what to look for in box art, packaging text, and quality of materials. If you have ever held a KO in your hands you know about quality of materials, and stress marks, and loose joints.

[@dove187]

Curious as to why you added Cloud 9 Quakblast at the end

[@johnmunro4487]

There are like 6 companies on Taobao offering deposits for these now :)

[@sean-gmcc]

I don't usually root for copy cats, but Fanstoys figures have skyrocketed in price, and they seem to purposefully realease too few figures to drive up demand and prices, so I'm excited about that knock-off Cyclonus. Of course, if I cancel my Xtransbots pre-order, the knock-off will get cancelled, right?

[@Grotesque_Denizen]

But if the scenario somehow did happen of there being no original third party product being made anymore because of their items being knocked off wouldn't the ko companies just start making their own original product, like isn't that at least in part how some of these third party companies started was from making ko's...

[@PopePlatinumBeats]

yep... Hasbro won go after 1984 G1 stuff because if they LOSE in court... then the precedent is set...

[@mrheroprimes]

nah it's pretty clear Hasbro's very well wear with 3rd-party is doing because they've taken inspiration from DX9 for how Transformers Legacy menasor will combine.

[@theholo-library4020]

I'm very ok with that. 3rd party is allowed to exist as long as Hasbro can use their engineering to improve their products and make chug better than ever. That's the best if all worlds.

[@tawdryhepburn4686]

Or DX9 built their Menasor based upon stolen designs… A mainstream toy company product takes 3 years to make it to market. So there would be plenty of time to steal the CAD file and then reverse engineer a new product.

[@hugopulido9446]

If fans toys is really worried about being kod they should reissue a large batch of there existing characters as repaints in generic boxes at lower prices..

[@aidanfriedfeld8889]

People have consistently complained about takara pricing after they started fully painting every MP figure. Especially MP44. And yet a lot of people bought it. People will always complain about price increases because no one wants to pay more for something they don’t have to. And yet every time a new takara MP figure seems absurdly priced especially compared to the previous release of that character or just previous releases in general it still sells. Remember when MP hot rod was 90$ and now the new bumblebee whose way smaller is over 110$.

[@michaeldemontis1287]

It still sells but consumers definitely don't buy due to the price. TT must be hitting the profit to sales performance they want because they don't seem to be changing their prices. I won't go in on them as third party gives what I want for the price they offer. Yay free market!

[@bradkrekelberg8624]

Well said. FT could certainly stand to do some things differently. "price more reasonably, release more reasonably, and allow sufficient pre-orders." Couldn't have said it better myself.

[@awesomeguy9513]

It’s like takara and their MPs. Skids was well received cause it was a fairly priced well released figure while starscream people are buying crimsion wings or screaming meteor due to pricing and build

[@sorrow8669]

Fanstoys price surely will go down soon

[@iissahmyty-kingstonthomas3919]

I don’t know why people are so surprised. The only thing I’m shocked is that it took this long to ko fans toys. We all know that fans toys is number one in transformers and when you are in too, people will always ko you.

[@williamkious5349]

Sad part of being a creator... Watching everyone else get rich off your sweat. The original Takara Diaclone team should have all been able to retire on the royalties from Battle Convoy. As for FT, I think they've earned a black eye or two. They strong arm over IP they don't own or create. We can split hairs about derivative creation all we want, but I doubt any court would say a FT Prime is unique in any way. It's why this stuff is buried so deep in China. Legal venue is everything. None of this shit would fly if any of it were manufactured anywhere else but Asia.

[@zim129]

Collectors aren’t necessarily “entitled” to these pieces, they just want them. If someone is filling that want for a price certain collectors can afford when fanstoys didn’t, it’s a very simple equation. FT can make bigger runs and lower their prices, you know, back to their previous production model, or they can expect this. I say this as someone who owns about half of FT’s releases with relatively little complaint for my own purposes.

[@TheMattTrakker]

At the end of the day it's not the consumer's problem, either. It's for FT's to figure out legally. The idea that no company is going to make new designs if their stuff gets KO'd doesn't hold up. How long has Hasbro been running the MP series? How many KO's exist? If there is money to be made, someone will fill that niche.

[@thenaggingguy122]

It's not about money, it's about sending a message... (to Fanstoys)

[@miyinan]

Great video! Kfc puts out the ko to hurt FT when themselves (xtb) have a cyclonus coming too?! That one doesn’t make sense either.

[@magicgundam]

Ahh, entitlement in the "collector community"... the reason I keep the community at arm's length at all times.

[@jedijake77]

I’ve seen many ko’s blow the original out of the water with detail and extra pieces

[@cdeuceriley4044]

Thumbs up for the Jay-Z quote, wish I could triple up on the thumbs up, thanks for the info as always.

[@lowellmartens6135]

The extension of copyright and patent law is absolutely ridiculous.

[@iamtheomnimonkey]

Skulls Clues!!! Let's get that going!

[@rickV-zy6eh]

KO Fans Toys?, that's a new one for me.

[@professord8888]

This FT ko issue is among the most interesting thing to happen in 3p since the KFC Breakdown affair. However it unfolds it will be a big part of this history.

[@scottcampbell9515]

Can you say the parts about supply & demand, and the common sense economics parts of this louder?

[@MrPickles2u]

Bobby you didn’t mention the theory that the person that is behind this is a former FT designer

[@robertclassicconstructiona1830]

Hey Bob tried to email the toy guy , no answer, is he still in business. I'm sure he's busy .....just wasn't sure if I should persist. Thank you sir for the great content ......

[@jon-580]

The wise man ain't on Facebook... Personal I'm curious about the KOs, and what price and quality they'll be able to deliver. I don't feel bad for Fanstoys they'll be fine and if they're taken down a peg or two I am fine with it for the petty anti-competitive practices they engage in. #Quakeblast4eva! 🤣

[@ryanem49]

Honestly no 3rd party company that has been KO’d has ever been fine after. Ask maketoys and Dx9

[@GibDozer1]

@@ryanem49 MMC, XTB, Warbotron/GenToy, Magic Square, Newage, and Iron factory all weathered the storms. Maketoys, Perfect Effect, and Fansproject made poor decisions and some shoddy products that compromised them more than KOs did imo. I didn't realise DX9 was hurting, that's a shame they make a solid figure from what I've experienced.

[@ryanem49]

@@GibDozer1 Dx9 is dead. Maketoys might as well be.

[@ryanem49]

Warbotron/ generation toy haven’t been heard of in years. Beyond finally taking 5 years to finish defensor

[@GibDozer1]

@@ryanem49 Yeah, but they survived being KOd. I think they just bowed out of the market after Transformission Menasor. Pretty sure that was still them.

[@GibDozer1]

Idk Bobby. Tesla eventually beat Marconi when he stole his idea for radio. I don't think stealing a person's ideas is so different than stealing a design. This company didn't go in and take the physical object off the production line right? So they also only stole ideas that they didn't create. That said I will probably buy the Cyclonus KO, not because I "deserve it". Because I want it, it's affordable, and available to purchase. I've got no qualms about buying KO or 3P but I accept neither are truly operating above board. Companies can't expect brand loyalty when they stole the brand to begin with. Edit: I bought the KO Cyclonus $110 shipped, and it's fantastic.

[@GareWorks]

I think that's the best part though - both sides of the argument aren't necessarily wrong, because it's subjective. Is it morally wrong? Maybe. But maybe it has positive impacts too. Or maybe it doesn't. The outcome isn't set in stone either. That's what makes this discussion interesting (at least until the armchair lawyers chime in).

[@GibDozer1]

@@GareWorks Kind of exciting. A shadowy flight into the seedy underbelly of counterfeit toys!

[@KEEPINGitREAL213]

I have one Fanstoys figure.....FT-10 Phoenix! In fact, it's the ONLY transforming figure that I own. And I love it!

[@russthemuss4218]

Well said my friend

[@ninebreaker6438]

I finally get economics. That was very clearly explained. 👍

[@fernandoflores3161]

Well said, but FT's prices and preorders are insane, hopefully the KO will keep all of that in check.

[@Nyarlahotep]

Yo, don't pre-order the BSF-01 Microphone, I heard there's a KO soon

[@Da_Ninja_Genko]

Love me some k.o.'s

[@cameronmoriarty3313]

If I was to go the direct competitor route for KO suspects #1 for me would be Giga Power. Something there is clearly personal between GP and FT. On top of that GP is not currently doing anything that I know of (who knows if they are acting under another name). Could GP have quietly closed down and gone away? Yes they could, but giving up on the feelings towards FT and doing nothing to them does not sound likely to me considering some of the things in the past.

[@thesaiyanlegacy]

I will say, it may have been entirely unrelated, but ShowZ dropped Tesla down to 159, which swayed my choice over Janssen. If nothing else I hope this catalyzes prices to start returning to normal

[@joshuaknappenberger5842]

I think a Hasbro exec on a panel (could have been at one of the comic conventions) was asked by a fan about how to keep Hasbro from going after 3rd Party. He said, "Just don't tell us about it. If we are told about a specific item, we are legally bound to give a legal response." Why he said that? I don't know. While I've never heard the argument that they might lose in court, which is a fascinating take btw, I always preferred the theory that 3P helps the brand by keeping interest in the property alive. And since branding is just as important as anything else in today's world, the company who owns the rights to the brand does benefit from continued interest in the brand. Your theory is much simpler, however, and simpler is usually the answer. On another note about the creator of Optimus Prime, I believe it depends on the way his contract was written. To my understanding, DC comics creators actually do get royalties for their characters, Marvel creators do not. Therefore, the guy who created Bane, get's a royalty every time the character is used, the creator of Wolverine, does not.

[@TheMattTrakker]

His theory is also generally going to be wrong. The cost of fighting a company like hasbro in a legal battle over IP is something that these KO/3P companies wouldn't even be able to afford. How many 3p companies are incorporated in the US, so that they could easily be sued by Hasbro? That'll give you your answer as to why they don't go after more of them.

[@CptNoms]

Hasbro announces Blitzwing, preorders for Berserk open up.

[@PopePlatinumBeats]

i know that super snob well known FAN TOYS only Facebook group is going crazy

[@AgtWashingtub]

Bobby getting in the weeds-face

[@joshwescott9809]

I dont really care about ft ko's but....ill definitely buy a couple of ko jetfires lol

[@walkers198]

Hmm. Didn’t consider that b4. Me too..

[@derekstaff]

I agree there is a lot of entitlement. I’ve seen a lot of people condemn FT for using strong-arm tactics to nip this Cyclonus KO in the bud. And while, sure, I’d love a cheaper version to become available, I cannot blame FT for wanting to protect their work, the engineering and design that went into their figures. I may wish they didn’t try to squash the KO, but I respect their desire as creators to be the only ones to profit from their work. And I respect their right as players in a free market to choose not to sell to or through any given buyer or retailer. If they were sending goons to burn down houses of the KO makers, I’d protest, but to say that they are being underhanded, unethical and dirty for trying to block the KO sales by blasting retailers is spoiled and entitled. What they are doing is tough, but fair.

[@GibDozer1]

"I respect their right as creators to be the only ones who profit from their work". I assume Has/Tak also gets to profit from the work right? Seeing as how they created the characters/lore, paid for the marketing, and kept the brand relevant providing toys for 40 years. The hypocrisy in Fanstoys stance with retailers is palpable.

[@derekstaff]

@@GibDozer1 absolutely, HasTak has the right to try to defend their work, either through legal action or by the same tactic as FT. I would be disappointed, but again respect that right. As Bobby points out, whether they would succeed legally is questionable, as character is less clearly theirs than specific engineering and design. Whether you think it’s hypocritical or not is irrelevant.

[@GibDozer1]

@@derekstaff I don't THINK it's hypocritical, it is hypocritical. No one is buying Fanstoys Quietus, they are buying Fanstoys Cyclonus. A rose by any other name and such. If it's really about engineering and design not the character as you claim. Why doesn't Mattel make a not Optimus Prime? Fanstoys wouldn't have this product to sell without hijacking Has/Taks work and fanbase. That's not an opinion it's a fact. Fanstoys throwing a fit and threatening retailers is hilarious to me. It shows how completely divested from reality this company has become. They opened the door for KOs when they jacked up prices on toys representing ideas that weren't theirs to begin with. Now they're mad that someone else is stealing their work, typical...I can't wait to get my Not Quietus NOT Cyclonus KO. Any qualms I might have had were laid to rest when FT began strong arming retailers.

[@derekstaff]

@@GibDozer1 and you are welcome to think that. If you don’t understand how nebulous character in intellectual property is, perhaps you should look up all the Superman expies that have appeared in different comic lines over the years. I personally don’t necessarily have a problem with KOs. I may well purchase the KO if they include the alternate head and skirts the original FT release included (I HATE the Toon look). But I also completely understand FT trying to protect their work. I think it’s silly to act as if it is beyond the pale.

[@GibDozer1]

@@derekstaff It's not all that "nebulous" Hasbro doesn't make Superman and Batman in the Marvel Legends line. It's not because they wouldn't sell, it's because they don't have the rights to produce those character likenesses. That's the issue, Fanstoys doesn't own what they are selling, and they haven't licensed it from the owners. So they are stealing. It's actually really simple. Like you I have zero issues with 3P stealing the IPs and producing toys I want. I'm not going to say that it isn't theft though, or that someone stealing from them is somehow more wrong. I actually find it funny that they are getting all up in arms about it. As if they have a leg to stand on...

[@PicklerEntertainment]

I loved this video. I worked for one of the biggest insurance corporations in the U.S. for several years, before moving into plaintiff law. I've been working for a firm her in CA for the last 7 years, and for most of that time I've been a part of this community. Everything you said, about the legal issues Hasbro would face battling these third-party companies is exactly correct. Hopefully enough people watch this video so we can finally end that debate. As far as this FT / KO situation goes, I'm with you and I will NOT be supporting any such KOs. Also, something else to consider for those wanting to buy those KOs. A KO value doesn't increase, it's stays the same or drops. So for those venturing into the land of KOs, your collection won't have any real world value. Most collectors are in it for the fun of it, like me, but it also doesn't hurt that should a life emergency ever happen, or should I just decide to move into a new direction; I know I can get at least what I put it into back, likely even more than that... Bottom line these third-party companies, most are small companies, created for fans like us, to serve an area of the market Hasbro won't touch... So hopefully we (those same fans) don't screw it all up, just to save a few bucks.

[@TheMattTrakker]

WTF is "plaintiff law"? We didn't have that course in law school.

[@razingst0rm]

Still think C9 didn't KO Quakewave. They may have copied engineering, but that's a completely different mold, it doesn't even move the same way in the hips.

[@jkliao6486]

I wonder, if, FT being at the top of the 3rd party market, is also creating toxicity in the market, and the whole market could have been better without them?

[@voodoo9449]

As someone who started collecting after many of these are off the shelf (I could only dream of the initial release price of Phoenix X10 or the bugs) I still don't want a KO but would LOVE decent priced re releases. I'm also not out to cut out the value the initial releases and what some had to pay for them (I know that wouldn't be so happy about it), and if they want to change something for a re release (paint- ect) I can live with that as well. Specific to Fans Toys... they have their own factory now... so anyone pushing KOs on them is throwing money away to cause them headaches... which leaves me with 2 thoughts... 1- Fanstoys are re releasing as KO to appease the market without upsetting those who purchased the same bot earlier on. They have the capacity to do this, and the molds sitting on standby but I really don't see the need to do this... at most they just need to adjust the price point a little... why go to that much trouble. 2- The most likely reason... someone high up in the game feels a big pinch especially knowing Fanstoys now has their own factory, undoubtedly they make better constructed bots, they at times have issues with other areas, but for the most part they are at the top of the pyramid for MP Transformers. That leaves a big target on them... dare I say even Takara... So somebody that needs to catch their breath and try and catch up is throwing a monkey wrench in their works. Honestly ... we already seen a re issue on the bugs, I think Fanstoys has planned re issues at some point anyway, so for them I see this more as a small bump in the road providing they get going with what they have lined up already.

[@DunkleX9]

Here’s my (blank), you see it…yooouuu seeee it Consider this line ko’d by me

[@Shaun-cf8mz]

If copywrite always existed we would still use a log to cross a river

[@TheACcam]

Laws don't equal morality.

[@Superdimensional]

Mike Lorber lol he’s one of the Fanstoys haters and has made a Fanstoys “official” group on FB, and ironically it’s a KO of the real Fanstoys group, you can tell by the member count.

[@donaldjackson4456]

My thing is we are getting very close to running out of Figures to make. I know its still a lot that can be made but we are way closer to being finished with every Character from season one to season four of G1 than we ever have to the point of other companies just making the same characters because they have nothing else to make . What happens then? So they just start making up transformers making a new characters is that what happens from here

[@Atlas-hu9wk]

Irony at it's finest. 3p stealing IP from TT/Has. Now KOs doing the same to 3p.

[@johnpaullaybourne6941]

More issues than a news stand