Fantasy is too Orcphobic

[@mikemigasproduction]

the Posh Voices of Elves in Fantasy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnq8fHl7e5eKi7s

[@DamanHillard]

Slavic Orcs would be hellacious dancers!

[@Miraihi]

Warcraft orcs are still the best. The movie adaptation, while not perfect, did get their culture right. They both stay true to their militant nature, but also are easy to understand and can't be called innately evil. They're also pretty smart and receptive to the diplomacy with a right person at the horde's helm.

[@mikemigasproduction]

it wasn't a perfect film but imho underrated

[@42Nightsyesterday]

So true. In a lot of ways they are smarter than humans. Thrall was the main character of Warcraft for a good amount of time

[@oaktreeholler]

Warcraft and Warhammer. Warcraft I was raised on. 1, 2 and 3. Warhammer is the OG badass orc that inspired warcraft orcs.

[@oaktreeholler]

I loved the movie.

[@DamanHillard]

You're right. The whole reason why Orcs had to be gruesome cannon fodder was to distance the players from what they would be proposing irl. In space gaming it was, "I'm not killing people, I'm just frying bugs!". Likewise, "I'm not actually hurting anyone, I'm just whacking Orcs" was an actual old time defense. I guess we weren't trying to think too hard... 🤔

[@Randomdudefromtheinternet]

Shadow of Mordor/War definitely made the orcs more nuanced while still staying true to being the living weapons of Mordor.

[@pineappleproductions1696]

Definitely. Gives them personality and makes them badass

[@AlexLopez-vm7uq]

Shadow Of War imo is the BEST depiction of Orcs and Trolls as well as being one of the BEST Fantasy video games EVER honestly ❤❤️‍🔥 “NO More talk! WE BRING WAAAAAAARRR!” - Az-Laar the Demolisher 😂❤

[@FrozenPhotonX_X]

When it comes to Orks in Warhammer, a higher up at Games Workshop has said their voice is based on an old regular they had to deal with at a local pub (as GW is British) who they wanted to make fun of for being a loud asshole.

[@danielwhitman2255]

That's hilarious

[@mikemigasproduction]

haha is that true

[@greendalf123]

Never heard that before... 40k Ork accent is Cockney (low/working class Londoners, kinda like hood talk in the USA/Canada)

[@sheadon01]

My homebrew fantasy world has four different nations of Orcs to cover all the bases. Demonic evil foot soldier Orcs, Unintelligent caveman savage Orcs, civilized and industrious Orcs, and several clans of "Noble Savage" Orcs.

[@42Nightsyesterday]

Is this an orc dominated world? Or are there other fantasy races in it? Anyways sounds cool man

[@sheadon01]

@42Nightsyesterday The standard set of Dnd and fantasy races are present, but the Orcs are the newcomers to the setting. Upsetting the status quo and toppling the old Human Empire (which is my world's Rome), in the same way that when the Humans had arrived, two millenia before that, the old Elven empire was toppled (Bronze age equivalent). So my Orcs aren't the dominant species but they are ascendant.

[@greendalf123]

I'm Bosnian and we're definitely Orcs. Big, and always fighting each other. That being said, I don't think there's any issue here (personally). Tolkien made Orcs to be the foot soldiers of the evil armies. Do they have some low-class inspiration to them? Sure. But Hobbits are also inspired by the lowly common folk of the country, and I'd say the later is much more of an intentional 1:1 than the former. Could it have been interesting if Tolkien's Orcs had more personality or morale conflicts? Maybe. But we aren't Tolkien (the guy whose works are so brilliant that modern fantasy writers live perpetually under his shadow). Not to mention that LOTR is the story of good vs evil. In Warhammer Orks are more silly and less serious, and are the comedic relief of the setting, in a satirical Mad Max meets English soccer hooligans kind of way. In Warcraft I think they do what people like you seem to want: nuance (or at least they did for a while). I feel that based on this video you haven't actually played the Warcraft 3 Orc campaign, because it's all about Orcs finding their own corner of the world to live in peace, while being haunted by the "literal" demons of their past and past actions. Thrall is very wise, intelligent, and speaks that way too. Even the more feral Grom Hellscream speaks clearly, but harkens back to the Orc warrior culture more than Thrall does. I think Blizzard ruined the entire progression of the Orcs when they made Garrosh a barbarian warlord who only craved conquest. It's like they went from LOTR style "evil" Orcs in WC1 and WC2. To being noble savages (like Conan the barbarian) in WC3 and early WoW. To becoming Isengard when Garrosh came into power. I mean I agree that people should do what they want - if a writer or game makes nuanced Orcs like Warcraft did, I'm all for it. At the same time, I see no issue with Tolkien's original work. It all depends on the type of story you want to tell. Honestly, I think Elves and Dwarves are often more generic than Orcs. I can see the clear differences in the Orcs from LOTR, Warhammer, Warcraft, Elder Scrolls... less so with Elves and Dwarfs, which are straight out of Tolkien. Barring maybe the Dark Elves of Warhammer fantasy battles, who are akin to slavers and driven by such degrees of selfishness that they became one of the most cruel races in that setting.

[@42Nightsyesterday]

You said it perfectly. Really well put, I couldn’t agree more. Garrosh was a good villain but I agree I hate what he did to the orcs and the horde within the Warcraft lore. I loved Warcraft 3 or a how they actively worked to manage their battle-lust and were a highly honorable people, a trait which made them many friends and Allies. It’s a shame what they did to Thrall’s character as well.

[@rikospostmodernlife]

Hope there's a sequel: fantasy isn't elvenphobic enough

[@joeyc9418]

As someone who takes a lot of interest in non European centric history (for example, pre-colulimbian americas) the idea of a fantasy where the 'higher classes' are presented with an English accent really tickles my fancy

[@mikemigasproduction]

ha!

[@42Nightsyesterday]

Isn’t that always the case though? If anything I’m tired of the proliferation of British accents in fantasy franchises

[@FredyTirannion]

Orcs in Tolkien are more of a product of corruption of Elves by Morgoth. So they are basically weakened and twisted shadow of what they are meant to be. Kinda goes with Tolkien theme of "Evil cannot create, it can only corrupt that which is good." And it is such a tragedy that the greatest enemy of the Elves are in the essence corrupted Elves. While I love Blizz Orcs for their portrayal as proud, honorable and redeemable kind, my most love goes to "40k Orks". Simply by the virtue of them being hilarious and the only positive (not good by any means) race in 40k. They view the setting as one big party to attend. That being said Orcs from Tolkien are not capable of truly altruisticly good deeds. It is not in their condition to be.

[@MarsM13]

I decorate my home in Orkcore interior design. The Orkcore look is dominated by red, grey, and brown. Brown leather and (natural or lightly stained)brown wood. Grey concrete, grey stone, grey iron, occasionally grey stained wood(I've found that Aged Barrel Mw283 is the best shade of wood stain for this). Red leather, sedona red stained wood, a bit of red trim, red painted roof. Dark ages war/hunting weapons as decorations. Hide rugs and Navajo rugs. Raw materials and recycled materials such as barnwood. Exposed industrial elements such as large bolts where practical. Pointiness added everywhere it can be done safely, such as pyramid tacks & pointy plants.

[@TheSnekDen]

Sounds very nice. I love the look of rugs and wood. A nice rustic and wild feel to it!

[@BalthasarGelt-x2d]

Orcs were just meant to be Melkor’s evil minions. It’s questionable whether they even have free will or souls. Killing one is no different morally from breaking a computer.

[@wooblydooblygod3857]

Boring as shit. I’m honestly fine with them being the bad guys, but make them people. The orcs under Sauron aren’t evil by nature, they’re just born into war, raised in war, and taught war. All they know is the killing and the war. It could make an incredibly interesting culture, if it was ever explored. Personally I like the middle earth games for this reason, the orcs are people. But they were born into this world of chaos and killing. It shapes them in weird ways

[@herrhartmann3036]

In most fantasy stories Orcs are low ranking servants of some greater evil. And their evil overlord has an active interest in keeping them stupid and uncultured. Warcraft is one of the few exceptions, where Orcs live as free people. And consequently their own inherent culture is a lot better developed and defined.

[@jaygrabias]

it's nearly 2025 and poor orcs are still being discriminated

[@InfernalConnection]

Thanks God!

[@DarkShadow-ek6og]

Good

[@mikemigasproduction]

:(

[@InfernalConnection]

@@mikemigasproduction You read The Witcher, You know we need monsters to feel better, so stop humanizing fantasy evil races!

[@bluntlyhonest6803]

In warcraft, it really is only peons and grunts who are the classic 'dumb' orcs. being their main characteristic. Orcs are for the most part just as intelligent as other Humanoid species. They just have diffrent culture.

[@4saken404]

That thumbnail had me think this was going to go off in a furry direction. Anyway orcs are bad guys because stories need conflict. Good vs Evil is a simple and easy conflict. But of course if some orcs grow weary or yearn for more, or some humans are willing to manipulate conflicts for their own purposes, things get a little bit more nuanced. Which also makes for interesting conflict. But you also have to consider whether such things are for a story or as a backdrop for a TTRPG. Because it's fun to fight bad guys. But never quite knowing for sure if you're doing the right thing, while interesting and engaging, is much less fun in a game based around heroes. Just some food for thought.

[@ManImTheVoid]

Well Orks or Orcs we know of were made up originally by Tolkien so I find it a bit weird to copy and paste them in completely unrelated universes.

[@SimonPertus]

Frodo: “Oh Sam. If those Orcs kill Merry and Pippin… just imagine the backlash against peaceful Orcs!” _cries in right side of history_

[@SealDarklight]

I allways love orcs and I associate or represent orcs as Barbarians rather than racism. Clearly when Tolkien made the orcs, he clearly made them to be inspired by the biblical name of gog and magog and inspiring from real history by these invading cultures from the east (Russians, ottoman, Persian, Mongols). Baffles me to think that people make arguements that there black people when you can also argue there nazis. The movies and books portray them as stupid yet smart enough to build weapons and engage in warfare strategy. They equip practical armor yet on the inside are still brutish barbarians like what early Muslims would see crusaders as. Infact I would also argue that you can also make positive interpretation of Orcs similar to how Ancient Roman's portray Ares more positively than Ancient greeks did, with him being this glorified and misunderstood god than villanised reckless war god. You can pillage the farmlands and let these puny humans be bullied mainly because there these clean imperialist who care nothing but their selfish gain, and just pillage and loot all their stuff like what medieval age was about. Otherwise I don't mind representation of orcs in media because they feel right what there supposed to be, most orc representation are different yet they all have common theme of being barbaric. Often villanised but are also perfect characters as barbaric warlords or companions. Then again many tries to copy race stereotypes from Tolkien than make their own difference.

[@cervo5224]

In the book I'm writing, orcs are one race I didn't wanted to change so much. Yes they have rino horns and have magical nullifying powers and other details, but they fit the mold very well. They are what you would expect from an orc race. We have stereotypes in fantasy, whe can use it for our advantage. The way I use orcs in mine is to challenge the concept we have of orcs being brutes evil war machines, exploring their desires to live and prosper in a modern world after the wars. And for that to work, they start just like you would expect the orcs to, killing machines. But that position was gave to then by the humans. Orcs by other hands said "dude, I'm not like that." I think that if there is a problem, it would just be the lack of creativity in those movies and games with orcs that dont do anything new. What isn't a problem by itself to just use a fantasy race stereotype as it is, but changing stuff is welcome.

[@nc956]

Why there is a negative bias ? well... They were the literal spawn of evil unable of repentance from the very beginning - There is nothing to investigate

[@theodorcrassi5129]

Is the concept of unbreakable essential characteristics in thinking people not worthy of investigation? Not that this video is a particularly deep dive.

[@Kaare-The-Heathen]

This is why, in my personal world building project, my Orcs are inspired by Buddhists, Samurai and the Mongols. They have a militant culture, but they HAVE culture. It gives them a history of being very peaceful, they're even the first to invent writing within their world. It also allows their history to have epic battles in a way that feels actually plausible from a motivation standpoint. It allows for characters in a way that's fun, and it avoids the WH40K "WAAAAAAAAGH!" stereotype Orcs have.

[@MrGaleanon]

Every time Orcs were the ubiquitous enemy soldier, they were magically hijacked by demons. Sauron, Melkor, Magtheredon, Mannaroth, theyve been maligned by their situation, and that should be a story

[@solarflare623]

I’ve actually decided to turn this trope on its head in my own fantasy world. In this world orks were artificially created by a dark lord to be the perfect soldier. After he was killed his army had no idea what to do. They began believing he was commanding them from above and started warring over who had the right orders. The winning faction would create a highly authoritarian, fascist state that would continue this myth for its leaders own personal gain. Many outsiders claiming to be false dark lords or orks saying they’ve received orders from the dark lord would start numerous civil wars. This cycle would continue for centuries with the orks gaining new technology along the way. Until eventually in this world’s equivalent of the 1920s the dark lord finally returned and millions of orks flocked to join him. But millions more had lost their faith and a new war began. This time not for ork dominance, but for ork freedom.

[@mattmigas5227]

This would make some good story!

[@solarflare623]

@ I’d also like to add that their weapons and technology while having an emphasis on destructive potential is not their main focus. Instead it’s simplicity and ease of manufacturing. Their medieval armor was made almost entirely out of bent steel plates like Roman centurion armor so you can just make millions of plates and join them together. Their helmets are essentially just steel buckets with some holes cut out. And their guns even have fully exposed barrels since they can take the heat.

[@somerandofilipino6957]

Cool concept. It really builds upon Tolkien's vision, and I'll admit I've thought of something similar.

[@oow9253]

It's tough being green ✊😔

[@Iceican]

This is made by and paid by Orc Warlord Urg Snagg

[@DamanHillard]

Yeah, but consider whether Klingons are The Original Space Orcs! 😆

[@danielwhitman2255]

Warguls from the ranger's apprentice series are a great representation of orcs that arent actually orcs. Theyre big and muscly and they are like a mix between a wolf and a man. Theyre cool

[@demoncore5342]

Yes, it's all Tolkien. Why would you need a nuance? Orks are all brutish, dumb and evil cause... cause giving Orks depth and nuance takes the lawful good batch away from the heroes.

[@Dr.Mlieko]

Orcs as they are known today were deliberately designed by J.R.R. Tolkien to represent the absolute worst aspects of humanity, without explicitly pointing fingers at one specific group Tolkien's experiences during World War 1 played an especially large role in their depiction Their mythological predecessors, the orco or huorco, from the folk lore of 12th century northern Italy and south Germany, were feral people, believed by anthropologists and historians to be mythologized encounters with apes (like gorillas and chimpanzees) and large monkeys (like baboons or mandrills).

[@weedling3552]

also what is rings of power? thats not the books or the 3 movies, is it? is this like a new fan created side universe?

[@Miraihi]

@@weedling3552More like "Corporate-produced spin-off"

[@mileslugo6430]

Then why would people continue to want to play as Orcs in modern games to this day?

[@acuerdox]

If not orcophobic then with who are people going to relate to evil? Or do you believe evil doesn't exist?

[@demoncore5342]

Dark elves?

[@acuerdox]

@@demoncore5342 ok, now we're working with something. so dark elves will represent the ultimate evil at the level of humans, so is that what evil does? are these dark elves proficient and intelligent? do they have technology? in that case what are we saying about technology and intelligence? does a person become more technologically advance and smarter the more evil they become? see, in the original LoTR orcs were not dumb at all, so much so that industry was associated with them.

[@HalasterBlackCloak-u2w]

Warhammer orcs operate completely on faith

[@joshuakanapkey6570]

I think it's okay for orcs outside of Tolkien's domain to be completely different. But those within his created works - and their adaptations - should stick to his intents and designs. And I promise you, Tolkien is not the one that assigned Cockney accents to them.

[@richardmolloy6064]

It's fiction, do what you want with them.

[@azureascendant994]

So... you're an elf and a Corellon simp.

[@chissstardestroyer]

Yeah, that just took a trip to full-blown insanity: make love not war: heavens no! That kind of stance is fully idiotic. Yet soldiers (the genre type that Orcs would typically run across) would have their own kind of such bond: that of a type of coworker; and no doubt they'd be useful at times as troops.

[@tjbr50]

Orks bad. Humans good. Simple as.

[@sigtryggureinarsson5910]

Orcs(orks) shouldn't just be humans only barbarian, they should be bloodthirsty beasts that only crave violence and destruction that only follow the strongest from fear and only survive because they are hard resilient animals that can thrive in any environment and breed fast and grow up fast

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

Well, 2nd e Orcs are described as lawful evil whose is if you aren't mean, you invite the wrath of the gods. So..... Orcs are Aztecs. So theire could interesting about a person exposing the Orcs gods are assholes and freeing the Orcs via killing them or.. thier Orcs are cursed beings and healing.. thus the Orcs gods aren't evil anymore and thus Orcs become good cus their morality is based on what they needs to be to not pissed the gods off.