Fantasy Monks Are Dull. How Can We Fix That?

Why do we think of monks as either friars and priors, or martial arts masters? There's so much more to unpack about real monks, and we can make our fantasy monks so much more interesting.
#worldbuilding #fantasy #dnd #monk #ascetic
Credits:
The Grungeon Master logo, and intro werecomposed by the wonderful Janina Arndt!
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[@greatestcait]

Honestly I would rename the Monk class to Martial Artist, and have the East Asian style Kung Fu Monk represent just one flavor of said martial arts, including things like grappling and other styles of martial arts (like capoeira) under the Martial Artist umbrella.

[@MadameRouzgar]

Yes! Imagine a grappling fantasy luchador or oil wrestler!

[@TheStartrek99]

This is something Pathfinder does very well. There is the base monk class which is the typical eastern style monk, but there are archetypes for other styles of martial arts. For example, the Tetori Monk archetype is all about making grappling awesome. At high enough levels they can do things like prevent grappled creatures from polymorphing.

[@MalloonTarka]

I'd like to add to that that what defines a martial artist is learning forms - the "martial art". Forms are series of movements, movements which are often multifunctional; they can be used for different attacks or defences in a fight. The forms themselves are to help the martial artist remember the movements, to learn them so well as to have the small important details become instinctual when deciding to do the movement, and to learn to easily transition between the movements. While getting good at fighting can be a goal, and often is, there are other goals too, such as training physically, mentally and spiritually. Soldiers and warriors can thus be martial artists, but not all soldiers and warriors are, even if they're good at what they do. The concerns of soldiers and warriors are often more practical than that of martial artists, namely almost exclusively how to do well in a fight _or_ battle (an important distinction, by the way). This is the main reason why in the real world soldiers/warriors are generally better at actually fighting than martial artists, though those that are usually borrow the useful parts (useful for _them,_ I should add) of martial arts (such as learning using forms) and discard/ignore the rest. But there is a compelling fantasy of training in such a disciplined manner as to become mentally and physically superhuman.

[@linkandshiek5522]

need a pankration or bartitsu subclass

[@fortello7219]

That sounds good, but consider that most physically inclined classes are called "martial"s. We need a different term. Not just one for someone who fights with their hands either, since monks in d&d use weapons as well.

[@athear2626]

I think the problem comes down to the fact that a cleric fills the role of the Ascetic monk and Teutonic or Templar knight leaving only really the eastern flair to differentiate them from the cleric or Paladin

[@aa-yt7wo]

Which class fills the role of the beer brewing Trappist monk?

[@JackDesert]

yeah, I've gotten my own monk character (sadly very racist named 'chin lao') a very solitary style. Wandering on the command of his deity with a staff with bells on it. There was three rules he had to follow to draw on spells (half wizard, half martial artist) from the dragon spirit. 1: had to spend one day a month in fasting meditation. 2: could not have carnal events with women. and 3rd: could not possess anything made of dragon or draconic materials. (so no dragon body parts in weapons or armor.) the first can be solved by doing it, second would need a penance quest, and the third is simpler, give the item or items away. another rule was not spending more than one night in a row in a building. So any castle or such dwelling had to be a speed run (doesn't prevent him from spell use, just a -2 on all rolls until three nights outside of any sleeping ready buildings pass.)

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

A templar is basically a fantasy paladin. A group of religious knights. Which has nothing to do with a real world paladin, but fantasy is fantasy. The fantasy paladin is devoted to their god and causes acts of violence in according with that gods teachings. From slaying heathens and heretics to slaying monsters. And the "spend not more than one night in a row in a building" would mean they could spend one night inside and the next outside. And a (in universe) rules lawyering monk could say that different parts of a castle are different buildings. First day he helps clearing the keep, the next morning he goes out and fights in the stables, the third day back to the keep. He would be the one in the group that holds watch outside. It would still follow the rules of the order, but in a more pedantic way. And if they get given dragonscale armor or a dragon horn hammer (or something like that), just give it to someone else in the group. They "own" it, and if it gets sold, the monk deals with it. It's not "their" piece of heretic gear and the money they take is just for selling it for a friend.

[@highlorddarkstar]

I’m rather surprised you didn’t mention my favorite tradition-anchorites, who would wall themselves up in a cell attached to a church with only a slit to be passed food and so they could hear mass.

[@thekaxmax]

not exactly gamable, though

[@highlorddarkstar]

@@thekaxmax not gameable as a PC. But the NPC possibilities of someone inaccessible with the ear of the local priests and considered holy are endless.

[@thekaxmax]

@@highlorddarkstar well, yes. But that's not a class, it's a job. They may be a cleric, mind you.

[@highlorddarkstar]

@@thekaxmax it’s a job not a class? Of course. You could have just about any spellcaster in there, protecting the building. Some of the monk subclasses that can use ki blasts, could also work. What happens if they go lich somehow? Would a ranged fighter work? What faiths support anchorites?

[@thekaxmax]

@@highlorddarkstar If he's a meditating cloistered monk (religious person, not the combat class) he's not protecting the place, he's in a cell isolated from others. He could be anything at all, including a lvl 1 commoner, but his job is to meditate and pray, that's what cloistered monks do.

[@Bighansen1981]

One of my favorite monk orders was in Ravenloft, in Peridon, where the monks where mostly a men's club focused on physical perfection. I think we can do a lot with monks that doesn't necessarily require a religious element (though a certain level of spirituality seems to always sneak in). Dwarves who commune amd seek to teplicate stone, elvish wind dancers, and even things as wild as hobgoblin death cultists can all be monks and definitely steer us away from the typical tropes.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

I came to think of in Morrowind there is a priestess of Azura that are living in a 100 year long isolation (she is elf) a prayer to Azura. She do this on the command of her goddess to win wager with (Sheagorath I belive), a mortal plaything of the gods indeed. The quest involved, hired by Azura herself, is to protect the priestess from interference, and to do so without contacting her.

[@Telleryn]

At this point I wonder if the Monk class only exists because it did in previous editions. You could easily delete it and split its themes and role (as an unarmed skirmisher with some vaguely magical abilities) up between a martial arts focused Dex Fighter (basically just modify the battlemaster), a brawling pugilist grappler Barbarian, an acrobat/ninja Rogue, and for the more magical stuff - a druid that only partially transforms and has bear arms or raptor claw feet for unarmed combat, some kind of clerical order that eschews weapons and armour and believes in attaining physical mastery and augments their body with divine power, or a sorcerer subclass that uses their internal magic (ki) to empower their bodies and channel spell slots through their fists like a sorcerer equivalent to a bladesinger wizard or unarmed paladin (and an alternative multiclass option for paladins who doesn't want to go hexblade), you could probably also modify the new pact of the blade warlock feature which basically includes a lot of hexblade stuff and have it be a magical tattoo that empowers your unarmed attacks rather than being a pact weapon. Everything else about the monk is all RP stuff that can be layered on top if you want.

[@johnpoole3871]

It wasn't in 2nd edition and was only in 1st edition because kung fu movies were popular in the 1970s. I was glad when they were removed in 2nd edition because they were wrong thematically and bad mechanically. But hey they came back in 3rd edition and I never liked them, at least in western style D&D.

[@danrimo826]

I 100% agree. All you need to do is make unarmored fighting feasible (easy with a feat or class feature) and every class could have a 'monk' subtype. This would make it soooo more interesting.

[@talscorner3696]

As far as I can tell, the dedicated class exists for 2 reasons: a) because we've had it so far (as you said) and b) anime. Personally, I think the monk should be either a subclass for existinsg classes or purely RP to add on top of another class's mechanics.

[@batou1976]

As it appears to me, yes the monk only exists in recent editions because it appeared in earlier ones, and it only came into D&D in the first place because some of Arneson’s players were into kung fu movies (or David Carradine’s Kung Fu TV show) and asked to play a Bruce Lee-type character. TBH 2E was fine without the monk; its designers rightly saw it wasn’t really needed and just didn’t fit. I was a bit annoyed at WotC for bringing them back in 3E. I think a Shaolin monk-style character could be fine in certain campaigns, but just not as an always-available class. The DM is of course always free to make the class not available in his campaign… But then there also seems to be a certain school of thought in the player base that says “the DM needs to always work with the player to let them make the character they want to play, even if the DM doesn’t feel it really belongs.” 🫤

[@danwebber9494]

I built an ex-pirate seeking redemption through suffering, and a Goliath who abandoned his heavy hot gear to become a movement specialist. Unfortunately neither has gotten a lot of game play for development.

[@ernestlam5632]

Very early on in the video my imagination went to guess how much a monastery and a cult look the same. Imagine. Humorous character who is a monk but it's always being called a cultist and being offended.

[@Writh811]

Apology: Sorry for the wall of text. I remember when I first learned about fantasy monks, my friend picked one in an online text based RPG we were playing. For a long time I imagined his character looking like a friar doing jump kicks and such, it was hard to take him seriously back then. I eventually learned about Sohei and Shaolin monks and realized these were the figures they were trying to invoke with the term "monk." It felt out of place in the very European style fantasy but I stopped picturing Friar Tuck doing backflips. I don't think the intention was ever that the monk class was consider a religious ascetic. If we magically fell out of the sky and in front of the game designers as the monk class was being initially inked and we showed them a picture of Ryu from streetfighter and the Dalai Lama and asked "Which one are you expecting players to be" I'm pretty sure they would unanimously point to Ryu (Did you know Ryu lives an ascetic lifestyle and wanders the earth in pursuit of further martial strength). I think they were just sorta looking for a one word name to go with the rest and the Shaolin monks gave them their closest 1 word option. This was a real cool video on how to Monkify the monk class but I think the rather than focusing on the name we should focus on the principle of the class. Fantasy Monks are martial artists and if we allow ourselves to be free of the religious connection of the term monk and allow it to serve as a one word replacement this is what I would imagine: Monks should be divided in to Martial Schools or Dojos, like how clerics pick a divinity. These schools invoke different martial traditions based on their unique history. These schools are as different in culture as the various religions with some good some evil and most somewhere in the middle. I feel like in a D&D style world, martial arts feels so out of place that I would make it that all schools or descended from one founding school, someone had to make this idea work first before it spread. Perhaps the first masters were peasants in a resource poor region. They had no metal to make weapons and the local wood is less than ideal for these ends. So they had to forge a new way of fighting to defend themselves. The success of the first masters would drive more local peasants to undertake the teachings. This new form of combat would have been looked down on as only the poor bothered to learn it, since they typically lack the means to acquire proper weapons and armor. As the teachings spread new dojos with their own masters arise in other lands. As time goes on the wealthy see the value of this "peasant art", witnessing unarmed men fighting off several armed individuals and walking away without a scratch. Some dojos eventually would serve governments, some wealthy individuals, or may have been founded on a generational cause. Naturally, in time, school rivalries begin to flare. Rivalries turn to hostilities and hostilities turn to war. They called it "The Peasant War." At any given moment in your village, on your street, martial artists would break into gang style violence against one another. As the violence in the streets grew more and more out of control governments individually began to ban the "peasant arts." Many of the Dojo's were closed and disciples fled, were locked up, or met their match. There are still some sanctioned Dojo's but by and large this left the land with vary few dojos to actually learn from and is a big part of why modern monk culture is fairly nomadic. Those sanctioned Dojo's typically provide security for cities (guards who can turn anything into a weapon/need no weapon) or may be one of the more nefarious shadow Dojo's that provide discreet eliminations. (I figure all of that provides a diversification of the class's specialization. It justifies the art's existence while providing modern rolls that make sense. The Peasant War as I called it provides a reason for an arms race in terms of techniques and weapons and the blow back of the Peasant War allows a good chunk of that to be lost and possibly rediscovered as narrative needs. Also the blowback explains why everyone ISN'T a martial artist today.)

[@DanielMWJ]

Eh, I would think the other angle is better: they DO come from ascetic hermits and cloistered priest monks for the most part. Such people spend a lot of time in meditation, so they could become more in-tune with themselves and the world around them. Further, such people would inevitably come under threat, requiring them to protect themselves. Hermits can come together to build their temples (or just take apprentices), while monasteries have some or all members train to protect the monastery. (Either as a separate caste or just one of the jobs that can be taken for life or temporally) After all, it's not like most of the priest monks are going to have Cleric powers. And that's not even counting what are basically ninjas (peasant infiltrators/spies/saboteurs/assassins) discovering secrets of the world and becoming a league of assassins type deal. So, I'd like if they leaned more into *both* interpretations as subclasses. There's definitely untapped potential there.

[@nicholascarter9158]

Keep in mind that monetary residents are often legally barred from using weapons: arms and magic spells would be strictly controlled by any stable social order.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

The only reason martial artist monks exist in the eastern tradition but not in europe is that here we have other devotees that take care of protection. And no christian would attack a fellow christian monk. But in a fantasy setting where everything is more dangerous I could totally see western monks developing martial arts. Just like how every second peasant farmer seem to have armor and weapons from their grandfather in the attic. If the world is dangerous because of monsters and bandits and such, more people would attain a way to protect themselves. Including monastic monks. They might have a poverty vow that stops them from having weapons, or it might just be the local king that thinks only his knights should be armed.

[@terrorcop101]

So a combination of the Witcher Schools and Warcraft Pandarans. I like it, although an alternative to the street fights and Peasant Wars could be tournaments organized under rules and undertaken in secluded areas. Perhaps "Peasant War" is actually what the biggest tournaments are called, the world series if you will (jokingly named such by the aristocracy) and they attract all kinds of spectators and competitors from around the world. Practitioners from each school could wander the world in search of new techniques and methods to apply in their daily lives and in preparation for their turns in the Peasant War or partake in local tournaments for money and notoriety.

[@justinterry8894]

Don't see why Martial arts are out of place in dnd since 1 Martial arts also include weapons which is why some monks can use them and 2 even if were talking about unarmed Martial arts Europe has plenty and as some people have said in such a dangerous world like dnd makes sense that secluded monasteries would have guardians. As for the Asian esthetic a little refactoring in how they fight and the look of their clothing goes a long way. Playing as a boxing hooded friar tuck is pretty fun. also just renaming ki as something generic like energy works since the concept of a mystical life force isn't exclusive to asian cultures.

[@douglasphillips5870]

The ascetic monks in DnD are part of the hermit background. You could include the acolyte background for those in monasteries. Ascetic could belong to a variety of classes. I often use hermit for my druid characters. Part of the druid training is to live alone in the wilderness, caring for a remote sacred grove.

[@dilloncasas5928]

This channel's content continues to both surprise me and inspire me. There's an immense amount of wisdom and food for thought crammed into all of your videos that is so welcome in what feels like a stagnation in the creative space of this little corner of youtube. Thank you for what you do! Keep doing your thing, please!

[@Grungeon_Master]

Wow, thank you! That's such a kind compliment. I shall keep talking about what I find fascinating, and hope y'all stick around for the ride!

[@felixheitzer2262]

I think your take on monks is actually pretty inspiring.

[@jocelyngray6306]

Back during the lead up to 4th Edition, when they were talking about roles and power sources, I fully thought the Monk would end up the Divine Striker. I'd love to being more religious asceticism to the Monk, it would be a way of differenting the class from others: monks are religious practitioners who seek to perfect their minds and bodies as an act of devotion.

[@dragoninthewest1]

"Monks are either martial art experts or beer brewing celibates" Way of the Drunken Master: Both, both is good

[@Kingneo0053]

Potential hot take: I'd insert monk into the other classes, then have the east asian monk trope fulfilled through builds within one or more of the other classes. There are multiple reasons for why I'd consider doing this. 1) What is a monk? A person that trains themselves to such excellence that they become capable of physical feats that can only be described as super human. 2) What are the other martial classes doing? In theory, it's the same thing as the monk. They are training themselves to such a degree that their abilities are increasingly becoming super human. The difference is how it's expressed. A master thief for instance might not be able to shatter stones with their fist, but they would be able to inflitrate places incredibly well. So well that they become increasingly undetectable to divination magic, become capable of climbing surfaces that shouldn't be possible, jump from heights that should kill them and receive no damage, etc. Meanwhile, a master barbarian might not be able to that climby stuff their thief friend did, but they would be able to shatter stones with their hands, pick up a lion that was trying to attack a crowd, toss a giant's weapon back at them, and so on. Things like this would add a lot of flavor, utility, and celebratory moments to the clssses. It also fits right into stories surrounding people like Beowulf and other legendary heroes. However, the creation of these things are partially hindered by the existence of the Monk. If we gave the other classes these types of things then what does the Monk have? 3) What has been the most difficult things for designers to deal with in terms of class design? Figuring out ways for the martial classes to keep up as casters get increasingly more potent spells. Well what's a way to do that? To give the martial classes super human feats that fight the tropes of their classes, archetypes.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

What if the "monk" the adventurers encounter is just a paladin who fights unarmed and unarmored. Just have an order of paladins who vow to never carry blades and never shield themselves from their god's view. In return their god infuses them with the power to do their job without weapons and armor. They don't wear armor, because that blocks them from their god. And the only weapons they use are wooden. But they are still paladins who go out and do good and protect people and slay monsters. So you have a devoted warrior who wears robes and fights with quarterstaff or barehanded and has superhuman strength and durability. Sounds a lot like the fantasised asian kung fu monk.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

The main problem with filtering the heavily Kung Fu movie inspired Monk class through the medieval European history lens is that medieval European / Western "monks" boil down to "Friar Tuck" if you're looking at fiction/folklore, or Rasputin and the Knight Templar if you're really straining for real world examples. The problem with these examples being used in fantasy RPGs is that none work for the Monk class in D&D. Friar Tuck is an NPC quest giver. The Knight Templar are Paladins. Rasputin is a warlock and probably the secondary villain of the campaign. For the idea of the Monk class fitting into a "medieval" setting it's probably less helpful to look at history and more helpful to look at fiction/pop culture/anime/etc... The monk lives in a monastery or out in the wilderness. They're hermits and ascetics. It's this lifestyle coupled with the fact they live in a magic rich fantasy setting that gives them the powers the monk class is known for. When you walk up the mountain and stay there meditating for ten years your body absorbs the ambient mana of the mountain so that when you eventually walk down that mountain your fists can cause small earthquakes. When you sit under a waterfall every day for a few years your body becomes a vessel for the flow of energy in both the river and in the "life-stream" that courses through the planet. Everyone knows the nearby temple is that last place anyone wants to pick a fight because the monks that live there are as dangerous as a legion of armed and armored knights. No one knows what they did to get that strong, but the results speak for themselves. For in-setting politics I like to tie it back to the idea of Ley Lines. Every location on the globe where two or more ley Lines intersect is a site of power that some organization in the world wants to control and monopolize. If there isn't a wizard's tower/academy, or a druid grove, or a monastery, or any kind of castle, fortress, or lair on the spot then there should be a gold rush style race to build any of the above the second one of these sites is discovered. Monks and their monasteries do something at these places of power that the rest of the world can only speculate about. The monks do their rituals, tend to their gardens, and every now and then the nearby villages deliver a wagon or two full of grains, supplies, or other basic essentials. None of the locals know what the monks do. They just know that the last time the locals cut off supplies to the monastery a plague swept the land. Or a war broke out. Or that one town two valleys over got itself sucked into the first layer of the Nine Hells. All they know for sure is that when the Monks in the temple up on that mountain are eating enough rice and doing enough push ups everything else in the region is more or less okay. "One wagon load of rice and cloth and maybe a few new gardening or carpentry tools every month is a much better tax rate than what the nobles would demand if they learned the old iron mine had an untapped mythril vein in it, or if the Red Wizards learned there was an "Aetheric Convergence What'cha'ma'fuck'em" on top of the mountain. So everyone be cool and don't try poking the bear."

[@justinterry8894]

In my homebrew world we have dnd monks just with a little reflavoring to make them less obviously asian inspired.they are still religous/spiritual ascetic monks who live in monasteries but like how not all priests are clerics not all monks are warrior monks. Then rename ki as something more generic like energy since the idea of mystical life force is fairly wide spread. Then dress them up in some hooded monks robes (stylized and made for battle) and you have a more traditional fantasy Martial ascetic/hermit who can punch rocks to dust.

[@terrorcop101]

I just added this to three of my playlists, including History and DnD Must Use. I had an idea a while back about giving my players the same background/origin story where they were initiates in an order devoted to something--protecting a realm, doing good in the world, fighting evil, haven't decided--and just reached the point in their lives where they go on a globetrotting pilgrimage to find individual callings for themselves and somehow tying them into the order's overall purpose. Your video may very well help develop this idea or many help me write a novel sometime in the future. Thank you. Funny thing is, I could see several of the types of monks you described being used to explain virtually every kind of divine magic user in DnD and then some. Paladins, Rangers, and Kensei Monks belong to the warrior variety, stylites could be any combination of Storm Sorcerer, Tempest Cleric, Sun Soul or Four Elements (maybe just air and/or water) Monk, or Storm Herald Barbarian, Coffin-Dwellers, like you said, could become any variety of necromancer, Grave Clerics, or even people able to stave off death, and the guys who turn semi-feral could explain all the Druids running around. Heck you could even mix and match these guys to create different branches of the same orders; for example, feral monks of the same locality might take up two distinct traditions: one where they dedicate themselves to studying the land and its magic, flora, fauna, and deities, while the other dedicates itself to hunting and fighting in that locality (in other words Druids and Rangers belonging to the same monastic community). There's a lot to unpack here and it could be quite fun to do so.

[@user-vd7hb9jz8c]

For the warrior monks, might look up the Scarlet Brotherhood from the Greyhawk setting.

[@deusvult5895]

European Monks in the middle ages were the center of alchemy and had big librarys

[@gasmonkey1000]

I prefer the idea of the "working monk" orders popularized by the Rule of Saint Benedict. "Pray and work" essentially. They pray, live in povert but still work. Cistercians were and still are a good example of this. And it led to the Knights Templar who argued that as monks they prayed, lived in poverty, and worked, their work was the protection of pilgrims and their property

[@GlitchedRed]

Honestly, a stylite style of worship may be really popular with certain sects of Illmater. Just holding one's ground, day in, day out, surviving only on the kindness and charity of others while drawing the ire of monsters that would be attacking their settlements if not for the monk. The monk may not even need to be limited to staying on a pillar like the name implies, but an eternally vigilant guardian keeping a frontier town safe from monsters by their presence alone would make for a really interesting NPC. Just the inability to take down one man perched on a log would probably drive the local goblin tribe crazy enough to forget their primary goal of raiding the town altogether.

[@TwinSteel]

Probably my favorite video of yours so far - I think it’s worth giving some info on Asian traditions with your disclaimer to at least introduce it to players of an otherwise highly Eurocentric game - simply giving a short list and directly citing the source could go a long way toward drawing people to seek out more

[@TwinSteel]

Its tricky, but I think often in our efforts to respect cultures we are not experts in by avoiding speaking on them, we may contribute in some small way to continued othering of those groups - asking for experts to speak on those issues on your channel or linking to them is fantastic, but if that’s not possible, respectfully sharing what you’ve learned so far is worth something

[@Grungeon_Master]

This is a fair point. I really hope my community grows to the point where we get experts of all stripes ready to weigh in where my meagre knowledge falls flat! Yeah, it's a tough balance..

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

And it would be easy to have some far off land to the east where the monk comes from. Elder Scrolls has a continent to the east of Tamriel that is basically east asia. Including talking pandas and kung fu monkeys. And there is pretty much samurai armor and katanas. On the other hand, the empire is like an alt history 7th century roman empire that kept polytheism. Including roman style armor. So if your fantasy world focuses of an european setting, have a place that is more east asian. And have the monk be on a pilgrimage that accidentally lead them there. And yes, it would be totally plausible to have a katana in an early medieval setting, all it takes is some japanese lord traveling to china, selling their sword for a return trip. The sword makes it into the hands of a chinese general, who gets stationed in the west. His garrison gets attacked and destroyed and the persian commander takes the sword. Who then gets stationed to the west and loses the sword the same way to a roman. Who gets stationed in britain and stays there after the empire leaves. And suddenly Excalibur is a katana!

[@justinterry8894]

​@@HappyBeezerStudioselder scrolls monks are the kajit they have the typical unarmed fighting styles and the super human abilities.

[@igwilly6592]

"Let's agree to do more with fantasy monks." I agree, you have my word :)

[@gavinmcgraw]

Thanks for the insights, Tom. It's natural to seek out those with "real-world" expertise in our efforts at making our fantasy worldbuilding more immersive and plausible (if not "realistic"). Religious topics are no different. In your case, whether that comes from a formal study or not, I'm impressed at your ability to punctuate your arguments effectively with the straight-faced, unironic use of the word "heck." To pull this off in so many of your videos, multiple times each, is gravitas indeed.

[@Thkaal]

You know in the game Arcanum it's a tabletop RPG from the 80s monk is basically just a Mystic and a martial artist but in a weird way the Mystic in the martial artist both are monks within the setting but not as a profession

[@seanrea550]

There is a DnD class conflict with this concept as alot of these concepts merge more with paladins and clerics than the DnD monk as a brawler.

[@ChapterGrim]

Monks in D&D are bizarrely reductionist in most representations, often as not that's true for most/much of how D&D portrays its classes - there's a lot of abstraction in D&D. It's part of why I enjoy WFRP4 so much, there's still abstraction to a degree as with all RPGs but not so much on the nose... 🤔

[@gabrielwalton4097]

Not sure I appreciate the Monk Slander in the title, great video though 😆👍 Monks are may favourite class bar none, when games get the mechanics right they are so satisfying 👌👍 There is defifnitely a fine line between monk and hermit, usually in fact lots of overlap. I think Monastic orders have some fun worldbuilding potential, the hardest part can be fitting it into the world as some DMs approach them as an afterthought.

[@justinterry8894]

Reflavoring them to look more European works just fine in most of my games like how the samurai can be reskind or a ninja as a really good magic assassin the looks and how it's described change the feel a lot.

[@grouchypotatowolfpack5580]

Orthodox monks train their bodies as part of their discipline, and there might be a timeline where the monks of Britain, tired of constant viking raids, decided to train hard enough that they couldn't be threatened.

[@robertsouth6971]

I'm calling mine Disciples.

[@veronwright1291]

New viewer and sub here and I enjoy your take on monks, as they are my favorite class in the game and I feel as though their core identity in the game is too based and influenced by typical east Asian martial art films I know I'm late to the topic, but I like to see monks as martial artists of various fighting styles and techniques that live with/for various certain ascetic faiths and ideologies reasons whether it be any of the western and middle eastern ascetics mentioned in the video or the more pictured understanding of monk asceticism, Buddhist ascetics. I'm more familiar with eastern ascetic philosophies and Buddhist and shinto religious histories than western ones, though I'm bad at elaborating so I won't risk butchering anything other than stating Buddhist asceticism was founded on escaping the cycle of suffering and lessening the suffering of others and escaping reincarnation. Other eastern ascetic ideologies I can think at the top of my head being Taoism (centered on minimalism and the middle way), and that of I've seen portrayed in the Jujutsu Kaisen series and some Chinese animated movies as one having their own domain where they rule and create through great spiritual practice Monks are a very hard to pin down, in definition, martial class because of having to balance martial arts and ideas of asceticism. But for my take on them It'd be better if martial arts were more friendly for whatever flavor of fighting style a player may want, whether unarmed or armed. And for the monastic ascetic side it'd be great if there were optional features for monks depending on what ascetic beliefs/ways you live by I think the way monks are gonna be in One DnD because they're more decent to work with as of the recent UA playtest. But monks overall don't feel like the ascetic martial artists I picture them to be. One thing I love about current monks though are how there subclasses make them unique from each other so that's why I'd prefer if the ascetic side of monks were reflected a bit more as optional features for customization rather than as turning them into subclasses

[@BlackKing_9]

as always great content!

[@geophrie8272]

The term monk covers so many dnd classes lol. They could be clerics, druids, palidins etc.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

What if the monk is a drunken boxer. Somewhere intbetween. From a long tradition of brewing, but also fighting. The monk would quickly become the best friend of the bard. That obviously adresses the monastic monk. For the ascetic monk, a typical fantasy adnventurer group wouldn't meet them at the local inn or church. They would encounter the monk on the journey and even have to convince them to join on the quest. Warrior monks have the issue that what they do is pretty much what the fantasy paladin does. A mix of a knight and monk. Basically every proper crusader. And the feral wandering monk is almost like fantasy druid.

[@s-o-tariknomad6970]

these are all great ideas for Clerics, though it has limited use for Guy-Punch-Good.

[@kingnekogon]

The fix I made for my game is to split the two. Martialist, for hand to hand martial artists. Ascetics for... well, ascetics. They function as a combination Cleric and Bard.

[@gothicshark]

I based a D&D monk on Rasputin once. He was considered a Monk.

[@leonenjoyer]

I'm going to play monk in my first campaign this week and this just hurts

[@wooblydooblygod3857]

Monks are cool AF in real life.

[@primachpepe8597]

i do get what you are saying but the problem lies in how the rules have been written for the class & subclasses itself. I do think there is some experimentation that can go into this, playing with both the concept of the monk being in tune with their soul & surroundings. IE A dwarf who can hear the rock sing, an elf that understands the winds whispering through the trees. with a bit of homebrew and stat adjustments, you can make it work. IE - dwarf can become as hard as stone (massive boost to ac) or as hot as lava (radiate & deal fire damage and damage enemy equipment). the elf being able to move like the wind, with or against it and can manipulate it (so grant effects like gasseous form or movement speed of dash length or misty step, etc) or you could go the more medieval route, the Franciscan monk, who brews beer and fights like a drunken boxer. again the issue i have is the rules as written, they make it too restrictive in terms of how you play the class due to how "monks" fight. Take the Teutons, Templars & Hospitallers - they fought basically as knights and armoured footmen, just with a religious zeal and differing tenants. If anything, they were closer to the paladin than a monk which is partly where the problem lies, not just in the combat rules, but the roleplay as well. the hyper religious zealot is already catered for in both the cleric & paladin (as well as the warlock to an extent), and the monk is the only (for lack of a better term) non westernised class in generic dnd. Sure you can play any class with a nonwestern aesthetic but at its core, the classes are written from a western lens, with the monk being really the only outlier. all the other classes are predominantly medieval or come from western folklore. Yes there will be some variation or similar "classes" when you look at other cultures but they are written from the western perspective 1st. Fighter ambiguous Rouge see any seedy city tavern of the era wizard story of king Arthur, other examples exist in other stories and tales Sorcerer distinct in dnd rules, word is interchangeble with wizard or any other magic based term (evoker, diviner, illusionist) Druid literally anything pagan, which most cultures remember in some fashion prior to Christianity Bard what can even be said about a travelling wastrel who sings for money Barbarian basically a non Roman, so anything "uncivilized" Warlock see wizard/sorcerer Cleric a priest, not necessarily a war priest, but one of the clergy. Paladin Religious fighter, again, fairly ambiguous Outside of the monk, the ranger is the only other one which doesnt have a clear western historical counterpart other than like a hunter or wildman. Its a weird designation when you think of it, part fighter, part druid, part barbarian (at least in terms of being civilized).

[@thekaxmax]

can reflavour, that's my preference. :P several that still fit the feel of the class. Jackie Chan-style crazy-tricks martial artist parkour specialist, absolutely minimal gear for lightness, no asceticism, is a fun one. Reflavour all really speccy abilities as arcane or psionic self-enhancement, esp the class abilities. Level Up calls them 'adepts', and they are entirely martial in their powers.

[@charlottegoldman3580]

For an historical order of warrior monks controlling a hostile region, the Livonian Sword Brothers are a good example. They controlled a region of northern Germany and fought and ruled over groups of Finnic pagans

[@HelotOnWheels]

I love the idea of Stylites having to fight off airborne monsters. Stylites would be a lousy adventurer class, since they're always stuck in one place, but think of the adventure hooks NPC Stylites could generate! I think most of these ascetic traditions in 5th edition Dungeons & Dragons fit under the Hermit or Acolyte Backgrounds. Eremitical traditions like the Stylites or the Hindu sannyasins are Hermits, while communally-living monks like the Benedictines or Teutonic Knights are Acolytes. Their class, on the other hand, would usually be Cleric, Druid, or, for warrior monastic orders like the Templars, Hospitallers, or Teutonic Knights, Paladin. The Monk *class*, on the other hand, clearly is oriented toward ascetics who train to fight unarmed or with only such tools as are necessary to maintain a subsistence lifestyle. With the exception of certain ninja/shinobi weapons, most of the popular east Asian "martial arts" weapons are simply tools of daily life: the nunchaku is a thresher, the bo staff a walking stick, the kama a harvesting sickle, and the tonfa a millstone handle. This fits with certain religious Acolytes or Hermits whose orders' monastic vows include a renunciation of arms and armor. But it could also fit with other traditions like the ninja/shinobi, who would likely have a Soldier or Spy background, specializing in combat with no weapons or only concealable or unobtrusive weapons to avoid attracting attention; while an Okinawan karateka or judoka might be a Folk Hero or Criminal whose Monk class characteristics result from his people having been deprived of normal arms and armor by their conquerors.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

A stylite monk who joins the adventuring party might be interesting to play. A lot of moves that involve not touching the ground. You can step on monsters, that is fine, but you have to get to a pillar before you get exhausted. There might even be pillars strewn around the world. Ruins of the ancient civilization from ages past. And in that kind of world, they might have associates. Before you can become a stylite, you have to carry the pillar around for a hundred days. Which then introduces the idea of other stylites standing on that pillar as sort of additional difficulty. Not only carry the pillar, but the monk as well. And at that moment, when the fate of the world is at stake, one stylite might decide that directing the associate to move with the group of adventurers is a good idea. After all, if the world gets destroyed, you can't continue your asceticism. You basically play your monk, and an attached NPC as well. The monk is a master of aerial combat, but useless indoors or in tight spaces. And the associate is super scared and runs of during a fight, but comes back once it's safe. It can be hilarious if the king wants to meet the group and the monk has to figure out a way to get there without leaving the pillar. Lots of ducking at the castle gates. Or the monk jumps and kicks the pillar from the side to move it a bit.

[@kori228]

answer to title: it's really simple, let them go full anime. Monks aren't just unarmed punching ghosts, they encompass the entirety of Eastern fantasy. Samurai, Xianxia, Dragonslayer Magic, whatever you can think of. Let them use weapons. Most martial arts originate as weapon styles. Don't be like PF2e that touts endless character options... except for a weapon monk. It pigeonholes Monks into unarmed animal-based stances, which is itself only 1 of many concepts/themes used in Chinese martial arts. don't tie it to religion, don't tie it to unarmed.

[@justinterry8894]

Can't the Kensei monk in dnd us weapons?

[@kori228]

@@justinterry8894 They can use some weapons, and their effectiveness with those weapons is no better than a Fighter. No special weapon techniques, no scaling damage. The class gives you multiple weapon proficiencies, but they're all very mundane. I'd rather prefer taking one weapon all the way to world-shattering levels. My comment of "Let them use weapons" is to make weapons a core part of the Monk base kit because Monks aren't inherently unarmed. Making weapons a core feature them allows you to take them to extreme levels via subclass.

[@DJMavis]

The Monk from the White that Wends in Pillars of Eternity was quite fun, he loved to take punishment to give himself power. I like the idea of a Russian Monk, mind powers, very hard to kill, hypnotic eyes...

[@talscorner3696]

I'd love to see a type of monk that acts as a "ritual scapegoat"

[@multiversedm]

With the removal of Psionics in 5e there is no logical non-faith home for monks. I hope to earn your subscription.

[@justinterry8894]

Monks aren't psionic they use physical training and controle of ki/life force to do what they do.

[@samwildstein2092]

On the player side, the "Monk" moniker comes with too much connotational baggage to cover all warriors that rely on the strength of their own body, yet many of those features only come at the highest levels. I'd prefer an "Ascendent" or that could support a wider range of fantasies from the enlightened master to the pugilist with insane workouts to some kind of superhuman mutant or lycanthrope.

[@baptistenormand2723]

This video was facinating ! I paused several times your video to take notes and write monastic figures and fraternities to add to my curent game and homebrew, because this is a topic I overlooked ! I present to you the knives monk : A fraternity of monks (men and woomen) who live an ascetic life dedicated to work. Their casts are all symbolized by knives that are, with their clothes, their only possesions. Here are a few I've came up with for now : Messer monks : The messer is a sword made to be legally a knife, the messer monks are wariors. The brush knife monks : Farmers and apothecaries. The pocket knife monks : Intelectuals and messengers. Scalpel monks : Medics. Their creed is that work is a way to build oneself. They will work for food and what people spare for them. Groups of knives monks can become guardians for towns and cities, agricultural experts, scholars and more, they can even change their knife to dedicate themselves to another field. They are now a whole faction in my world and I love them ! Thank you ! :D

[@EmmanuelQuartey]

Loved this. It’s really interesting how a simple idea can flower into something so rich. Really nicely done.

[@DrownedLamp]

There I was trying to lift myself up and find the limits of life. I was on the veege many times, but unfortunately a group of mischievous fey kept tempting me with sweet sustenance. Although they had the form of children, I could see the fire in their eyes. They knew I couldnt refuse their hospitality. It's an awful predicament, I swear. *Nom nom munch 🍰🍩* Truly a tragedy. -Friar Tuck

[@TheNdoki]

This is why I'm trying to find a better name than "monk." Partly because it can also conjure images of skulleted friars, as well as oriental kung-fu masters, but also it implies a good alignment.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

unarmored and unarmed paladin with asceticism and a lot of beer.

[@TheNdoki]

@@HappyBeezerStudios Haha, really rolls off the tongue.

[@redrobot4909]

I like the vids but i really have to play them at 1.25 or 1.5 speed.

[@ShadowOfLaw]

cultivators have entered the chat.

[@xyreniaofcthrayn1195]

well yeah the western monk was generally bartholomew j bornagain with small chapels and churches and really really is supposed to be the jo blow cleric of generic fantasy. whilst the martial artist monk in asia is quite literally called a paladin but in the west a paladin is just the bouncer of the church/basilica doors owned and operated by the clergy and is just some guys no girls, meanwhile in asia you have male sects and female sects both equally as deadly as each other so really dnd and it's spinoffs went hyper specific and kinda fluffed up when they made clerics a whole class instead of clerics being monks that took a solemn vow to heal in the name of (enter generic god or tabletop god's name here) and had the oriental style martial monk be a variant of paladin.

[@witchivy5905]

I made Karlach in bg3 , a 3rd level barbarian to get the bear heart subclass . Then put the rest of her levels into the physical subclass of monk; and she SLAPS. New found repect to the monk class after seeing a strength based monk barbarian just She Hulk her way through a dnd setting.

[@uppishcub1617]

You really need to move your teleprompter closer to the camera

[@dominion7363]

Is there a name for "Monks" aside from "Martial Artists"

[@colbyboucher6391]

Stylites are such an interesting phenomenon, I actually think they're a great excuse for the traditional, unarmed fantasy monk. You've got someone advocating for a weird, heretical idea people aren't really into. They're trying to preach about it but people keep chucking them in a cell for being a public nuisance. "I'm gonna stay on this pillar now", they say, and eventually everyone including the city watch realizes they're serious, because no one's able to get them off. Suddenly they're very good at fighting defensively and not giving any ground. The thing about IRL "warrior monks" is that of course none of them were just... fighting the enemies of their faith unarmed. That would be absurd. They were just people who were devoted enough to their faith to fight for their church. Your idea of using more "real" warrior-monks in fantasy reminds me of the Ordinators of Morrowind because that's exactly what they were, the militaristic arm of the church. I've been writing up a very extensive Elder Scrolls sourcebook for an RPG called Mythras (HIGHLY recommended for more grounded games BTW, not even just fantasy), in which I'm trying to stick to the vibe of the earlier Elder Scrolls games and inject my own flair where I think it's needed. A major bugbear for me has been that the Elder Scrolls games always had a "monk" starting class but they never fit lore-wise. I'm actually thinking that it'd be an interesting addition to Bretonic culture. They're already "quest-obsessed". While most aren't super religious, I could see a few crazies applying that hands-on "reach a higher social class through violence" and twist it into a different take on Vivec's "reach heaven through violence" philosophy, focused outwards towards the gods rather than inwards towards a divine self.

[@nicholascarter9158]

Unarmed warrior monks is not completely absurd: many a minor lord has declared it illegal for monks to own or use weapons, after giving the phrase "forty religious fanatics with swords" some thought.

[@colbyboucher6391]

@@nicholascarter9158 Well, yeah, but then no one in their right mind would think "Oh let's just do whatever we were planning on doing with our bare hands, then." Most people aren't that stupid.

[@nicholascarter9158]

@@colbyboucher6391 Normally what they're planning is "don't be robbed now that the local lord has publicly announced to the whole village that none of us have weapons" which is the source of historical hand only monastic martial arts: how do you meet the letter of the law (so you aren't shut down) while still defending the monastery?

[@Snockooz]

You want th o make a fun monk? Play a barbarian battlemaster with a 1 or 2 level dip in monk.

[@dwi2921]

The issue here is that monks in d&d are a complete fantasy, based off 60's, 70's, and 80's martial arts films. They have no real grounding in reality, history or folklore. Quite frankly, neither do bards, clerics, "paladins", sorcerers or wizards.

[@manganeko2534]

I think monk class is just martial artist class and it's called monk because of Shaolin monks. Reflovoring this monks as European style monks is mistake. Nearer to this monastic archetype should be cleric or paladin. D&D monks can be narratively just guys who are great in hand-to-hand combat. And can be reflavoured as people knowing any martial art (it can be capoeira, brawling or anything else), but probably it should be more dexterious martial art (because of stats).

[@Athorment]

So what you are saying is that Monk's are Druids/Paladins sort of... 🤔

[@MrNickPresley]

Now, when you say they're dull, do you mean to tell me that they are written in a way that makes them hit on well-worn tropes that you find boring, or do you mean that fantasy monks as a concept is boring? Frankly, I disagree with both assertions. In a fantasy setting of your own making, and especially in TTRPGs, whatever flavor your monks take comes down to you. You could have a wrestling federation filled with honorable luchadores be a stand-in for your standard wuxia monks, or have them be low-level initiates of a witch-cult that operates on the same logic as Hellraiser's Cenobites, or followers of a serpent god that focus on fighting after juicing themselves up with snake venom. The sky's the limit. The point is: The DM's guide is just that, a guide. You can pick and choose what you want to use, and fiddle around with things to re-flavor them however you like. And when you're just making your own setting, it's whatever you want. Monks can be whatever you want them to be. And, if they're stale an uninspired to you, it's because your imagination is stale and uninspired.

[@iratevagabond204]

Games like D&D doesn't really allow for logic, common sense, or verisimilitude. It's all good to have the world building, but if the system doesn't support the world building, you're gonna have issues. The idea that a monk are the only possess knowledge of effective martial arts is silly; a knight become useless without their armor and weapons in systems like D&D.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

the Fantasy definition of a Monk is way better described as a Brawler or Martial Artist, the Real life version of both European and Eastern is better defined as the Cleric, i hate the Monk class on these definitions alone

[@Ezekiel-18]

My frustration with DnD, is that it's nigh impossible to create a Christian-style monk or priest. The monk feels too much like some eastern one (Christian classical monk isn't a martial artist at all, they pray, labor or study, worship). And the cleric doesn't feel like Christian priests and pastors either, even if Christian warrior-monks did exist. I would like a priest class centered around prayers and rites or rituals.

[@SybilantSquid]

That's just a cleric. Literally that's what cleric spellcasting is all about. Prayers, rites, and rituals.

[@Ezekiel-18]

​@@SybilantSquidnope, because clerics in DnD wear armor up to medium armor, shield and can be played melee. So, they don't feel at all like actual priests (or pastors if you are more familiar with Protestantism) or (Christian) monks.

[@eruiluvatar6688]

Can you get to the point?

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

Fantasy can be literally anything. At best, the question desperately needs a rewrite. "What does qi have to do with dragons?" It's literally a dragon's breath, do you even taoism. Let's be honest about this: "monks don't fit fantasy" is a racist dog whistle. What it really means is "Asians I don't get to murder don't fit my narrow idea of what Germanic history should have been"

[@Grungeon_Master]

Ooh I am not sure that I intended to get into that part of the discourse. It's my opinion that monks and ascetics are integral to much of religion's history, and that we should be reframing our thinking to promote discussion of non-churchy faith expressions (especially in a world of magic and divinity). Of course all styles of monastic devotion should be able to serve as inspiration for us. Heck, my main argument is to broaden our reference points. I do hope that the main issue here is the title - which was designed to be somewhat 'clickable', but I hope that it doesn't immediately conjure such associations to such a strong extent that it's unpleasant... -Tom

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

@@Grungeon_Master I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm warning you whose lies you've unwittingly repeated.

[@Eowar]

I can tell in this video that the host is looking down at a set of notes or an outline frequently. I think these videos could be a lot better if he'd show that outline over his shoulder instead of the shelf of nicknacks.

[@artificerprime4154]

I mean, it doesn't make the video any less informative. So I'm satisfied with the content.

[@fleetcenturion]

How do we fix monks? *Get rid of them!* The monk was first developed because Dave Arneson wanted to play Kane from _Kung Fu_ in Greyhawk. It was his "13th Warrior" fantasy, inserting an entirely mismatched character into someone else's medieval European setting. In there various forms, monks were either grossly underpowered, or grossly overpowered, like they are today. Every version was equal parts frustrating and lame. The all-purpose, damage-dealing, stealthy, healing, Karate-tank, they're a class created for anime fans. Might as well create a Jedi class for D&D while you're at it... Oh wait, somebody did that! Real Shaolin monks are a tiny sect of Buddhism, rarely seen outside their monasteries (assuming the Chinese have left any alive). Even in an Eastern setting-- which WotC will _never_ do-- the concept would be completely out of place.

[@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917]

Tldr.... Play the videogame Blasphemous

[@lucaricciardi8253]

No

[@rtleitao78]

I hate monks in dnd. Maybe if you have an oriental theme, otherwise no. You do unarmed strike a platemail wearing great sword wielding fighter and live to tell the tale

[@Haispawner]

That sounds awesome I'm playing a monk if I ever get to play DnD

[@notsochosenone5669]

Well - same things with fighter who tries to attack any giant monster with fucking needle of a sword. So - don't fight dragons in dungeons then.

[@FitzChivalryFarseer2]

Holy shit! Not some stupid idiot or laughably over the top stupid expert to literal to even remotely understand context and setting. Watching this I had the idea of what would be a great and funny monk. Ascetic and alone. On top a pillar balancing and cultivating and pondering life... as this goes by the male monk cares not to shave or cut... So hence the african monk. The african monk's beard grows and so does his afro grow large.... and then some chocobos or similiar adorable cute birds nest in the afro that will eventually grow into decently sized birds of prey. So here are when the details and growth come in. A cheeky AF bird or maybe even better a small harpy no taller then three feet uses his afro for nesting. If going the harpy route can go down a hentai path from that point otherwise... smart burb uses afro for nest as smart bird sees a stationary nest that defends itself from larger more dangerous avians then the burb itself. Then long time passes or whatever and tho the monk fears not death he has some what silly people would call character growth and defends the burbs in his hair and feeds them at times. For some sappy emotional could have parent burb die for sake of heartfelt feely shit. So monk continues to look after the burbs and in time get not a subclass for beast tamer but beast companion PS 'Flatulence' monks sounds far more dangerous in enclosed spaces then anything else