What is Truth in D&D?

[@hart-of-gold]

My first one shot is to find and retrive a rod of truth lost in a shipwreak of a diplomat. This video changed who that rod belongs to and why it was carried. Initally it was gift, now it is a way to confirm a treaty.

[@destinpatterson1644]

I don't know how Necromancy, the school that specializes in manipulation of life, death, and undeath, is seen as the most evil, when Enchantment specializes in the manipulation of someone's mind and free will. That sounds far more evil to me than healing spells, resurrection spells, and spells that let you turn someone's grandma into a zombie.

[@AuroraRaiju]

Necromancy is just an enchantment of people who have no life but more importantly no social lives. Zombies don't care if you blame them for doing something but someone who is still alive will have real social implications for the things they did under enchantment. Enchantment is the most evil school of magic necromancy is just an offshoot of that evil however you can use in world politics to justify that enchantment isn't bad, after all who do you think will be manipulating public perspective more than the people using enchantment magic.

[@hircenedaelen]

Evocation is used for nothing but murder. Personally I see the spells themselves as having no morality, just the people who use them

[@rikospostmodernlife]

That's because a walking corpse, unlike slavery and brainwashing, is unnatural to the lore-makers

[@hircenedaelen]

@@rikospostmodernlife exactly. Necromancy is evil because people think it is

[@theawkwardpotato1973]

In defense of Necromancy being the most evil - not so much that enchantment isn't evil: it is, - it can be seen as a manuipulation of someone's very soul, rather than their mind. Something arguably worse. The brain and body only sticks around for so long, but the soul endures long after. If you mess with that, you might be forcibly ripping away someone's eternal happiness, in some settings, and sometimes, their free will for eternity, rather than just for a few minutes or hours. A worse version of the enchantment school.

[@VanHoenheim]

Modify memory would be, in my opinion, a complete game changer in such a world. Imagine how easily you could trick the courts to either rid yourself of suspicion or frame someone else if you or a hired caster were to use modify memory to replace your memory of a crime and the memories of others to think you were all together at the time so you would believe you were innocent and to create an alibi. Or you could frame someone else by implanting a memory of committing the crime with all of the details you remember. Stargate SG1 actually had an episode about this where a memory machine was used to transplant a killer's memories into an innocent person's mind.

[@novasolarius8763]

Instead of directly framing someone else or making yourself seem fully innocent, you can also use the same trick to make people think YOU are being framed. "Did you murder Lord Budhet?" "Yes, I did." "How did you do it?" "I don't know." "Why did you kill him?" "I don't know." "Where did you bury him?" "I don't know." "Did you have accomplices?" "A wizard in the woods. I don't know her name." "Did the wizard cast spells on you?" "Maybe. I can't remember."

[@emylily8266]

​@novasolarius8763 the problem with that, is if the court has reason to believe your memory has been tampered, they can just cast remove curse on you...

[@emylily8266]

That could work... until you realize the courts in those worlds would nullify all curses on someone just in case. If you or your target are on the pulpit, you've already lost. Modifying memory has its greatest use in making a crime go unnoticed to begin with. Or to manipulate someone else into committing the crime by having an underling store the spell and cast it under your instructions.

[@gabrielrussell5531]

If you pass your save, you need a new save every turn you're in the zone.

[@Morganwrath]

My favourite use of zone of truth is to use it in place of a persuasion check to an authority figure that you didn't do what someone is blaming/ framing you for. This trick has twice saved the lives of my entire party, and a lot of time that was needed for an investigation. If im a character that has zone of truth, i always make scrolls of it just in case. What you do when someone thinks you did something that you know you didn't do, like you get framed for murdering the mayors son and are brought before him, is give them the scroll of zone of truth, and allow them to cast it in you and volunterily fail the save, then ask you if you are in anyway responsible or however you think the question would be best phrased. The Mayor now knows for certain you are not lying that you didn't kill his son, and an entire judicial process of difficult persuasion checks is avoided.

[@Rexir2]

I've seen this happen in one of my first games of 5e; before a high council, our druid was accused of treason for amassing a horde of lizardmen to invade the capital city. Zone of Truth was offered as testimony to prove his innocence (yes, he brought a lot of lizardmen, but as converts to his druidic faith)

[@dalleme5656]

This, plus gift of gab is a strong combo, "I did not -not- kill your son"

[@thekaxmax]

Legal courtrooms would be part of a temple of a god of law, and would be enchanted with Zone Of Truth and also have two attendant cleric. Also, a ritual cast version of it would be a tops thing to develop.

[@lynxfirenze4994]

The authoritarian uses of Zone of Truth are a fascinating idea actually. There's a small authoritarian state in my homebrew world that's basically ruled by Paladin Orders, the idea of them making heavy use of Detect Thoughts and Zone of Truth to detect moral failings/dissent is a fascinating one.

[@luizmenezes9971]

There is a 5th level spell named "Modify Memory" that can be used to fool Zone of Truth.

[@stJules]

I could imagine a hireable wizard working for criminal underbelly.

[@shadow-faye]

That is not going to be very accessible though

[@Avigorus]

Easy counter: Remove Curse whenever the charges are significant and/or the subject is considered particularly resourceful. Yes, it's 3rd level, but it doesn't have expensive components so not that hard.

[@shadow-faye]

@@Avigorus and if they have multiple curses?

[@luizmenezes9971]

@@Avigorus You can counter your counter with Contingency. Make it cast Modify Memory again if you are targeted by Remove Curse. Sure, you need to be a Wizard to do that, but you can cast Alter Self to pretend you are the person who will testify.

[@drewforchic9083]

For the purposes of speeding up questioning under Zone of Truth, it would appear that you could have a lengthy written statement, or even a transcript of an earlier non ZoT interrogation, and simply have the defendant attest that the written document is completely accurate. If they can't, the immediate follow-up question would be "which part and why not?" Similarly for the diplomatic treaty, it seems like you could draft the entire thing between parties, letting that take as long as needed (probably much, much longer than 10 minutes) but wrap up with a ZoT at the end or intermittently throughout, and make them agree that everything written down is accurate.

[@prosamis]

Hmmm I really like the idea of Zone of Truth as like a stamp that adds a layer of certainty rather than the center of the entire trial

[@X9Killbot]

THo, to be fair your first suggestion would only work on those that can read.

[@Avigorus]

You would need to be careful with the wording, e.g. "that transcript is an accurate account of the previous interrogation" gives precisely zero verification that the statements themselves were factual, only that they were said aloud.

[@davidhoracek6758]

I'm glad I read this, because I was going to make a similar comment. In a low-magic world, a magistrate might make a big public ceremony out of each month's "ten minutes of exhonoration" in which maybe the 30 most serious cases of that month could be decided. All that each party would have to say is that "I understand and fully agree with the written statement I made to the court." Illiteracy would not be a dealbreaker, because a literate court official would draft the statement together with the accused. Because the accused have to truly say they understand the full written statement, it's on them to work with the clerk to ensure that the draft is written so they truly understand it. If they don't, they will fail their utterance under spell and be in trouble. Because this procedure is well understood, the typical liar would not wait to have his lie revealed under spell, in full view of the public. They would just make a truthful statement without any magic involved, and their case could go to non-magical arbitration. I suspect that this would cover the vast majority of a municipality's disputes. The actual spell event would generally only serve to confirm the truthfulness of the statements, which increases public trust in the justice of the municipality. On the other hand, the harsh and public punishment of people who are foolish enough to go all the way to the magical exhonoration event with a false or not-understood statement would strongly deter that sort of behavior. Reasonably, they would now be guilty of a double crime, and the extra punishment will make them wish they had just told the truth when their statement was being drafted. If a city had two clerics that do this spell who trade off each month, each of these public events would end with the cleric who cast the spell the previous month certifying under spell that all subjects were indeed under the spell's effects, and all were treated equally and impartially in the previous month's proceedings.

[@fern1009]

As an attorney planning to make an adventure near a city that can afford to have clergy cast zone of truth for formal proceedings, this video is gold for helping to plan out how such a legal system would work.

[@munkeybrayn8696]

Could you imagine a divine sorcerer with the extended spell. Chosen from the God of truth born for the search of transparency.

[@bardblunt]

Really like the breakdowns of how simple spells have huge worldbuilding impact

[@jgr7487]

Antimagic Field is also an amazing spell that can change a whole game.

[@drewforchic9083]

Thankfully that one is high enough level that very few people will have access to it, both PCs and NPCs, and so you can justify most in world practices not factoring it in, at least not in a large way. But I ran a high level campaign with a cleric who used it all the time, and had to do a lot of prep to figure out how it would interact with everything that came up.

[@jgr7487]

@@drewforchic9083 it's a great terrain spell for when a Lv. 3 cheeky Cleric says "I'll attack [the Green Dragon Wizard]!" & you can just say "You casted it, but it fizzled away. You realize the whole room is an Antimagic Zone."

[@old_sparky1365]

I'm a bit late to the party, but maybe someone gives that a read. When you were talking about the unconsidered consequences of Zone of Truth I had to think of my favorite spell, Phantasmal Force, and its implications. As it is worded to one creature that fails the save you can make anything that could fit into a 10 foot cube _become real_. It rationalizes away all and any weird interactions and can even take damage from it if the phantasm displays something harmful. The example given is an illusionary bridge over a chasm. But really, you can do anything that fits into a 10 foot cube. The only way to realize that it is an illusion is to use an action to make an investigation check. _But why should you?_ To you, this thing is as real as the ground, your opponents and the 20ft square of vines that just popped out of the solid rock floor. If someone suddenly wraps you up in spiked chains with a spell, why should you stop and test if the chains are real? And if you actually do that, why not when a spectral weapon suddenly materializes next to you. What makes this magic more suspicious than any other wonderous phenomenon?

[@DrLongWang]

This spell is one of the reasons I love 14th enchantment wizards so much (especially as villains.) Being able to twin dominate person and alter the memories of the people you dominate makes for the hardest detective plot ever.

[@ghrondindustries5136]

Its worth noting that creatures that succeed on the save do *not* become immediately aware of it, and must continue to save against it until they fail or leave the zone. So it is VERY unlikely that even the most confident of charmers will actually resist it for long.

[@ghrondindustries5136]

And since the caster knows instantly who has and has not failed the save, they can simply withhold questioning. And, anybody who doesn't Choose To Fail is immediately hurting their own case anyway, at least in the eyes of the law.

[@luizmenezes9971]

Since we are talking world building, there is another massively world changing low level spells, let's talk druids: Between Goodberry, Create Water, Mending, Entangle and Mold Earth, a lvl 5 druid can sustain a small town in the middle of nowhere on magic alone! Goodberry creates 30 meals per casting, that's good to sustain 10 people without any need for agriculture. Create Water can produce up to 450 liters of water per casting. That's enough for drinking and bathing. Mending is a cantrip that can make the clothes and tools those people brought with them last forever And let's not forget Move Earth, that can be used like a Bobcat for building. Entangle can be used to produce vines, those vines can be combined with soil and water to make adobe, and that can be used for construction. Needless to say that such community would be absolutelly beholden to the druid, since he alone is the source of anything and everything.

[@Morganwrath]

Whats interesting about this situation with the court cleric or a court telepath is you run into the 'who watches the Watchmen' question. How can the judge be sure the Cleric is telling the truth that the defendant failed the save?. Perhaps a chain of 3 or more clerics of different faiths who don't know each others identity that zone of truth or detect thoughts each other, and one zot'ing the defendant, so that it can be certain not one of them is compromised.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

What about deliberately try to lie as a test?

[@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462]

Good thinking but you still wouldn't know if they are actually incapable of lying or pretending as part of a ruse. Your only option would be to subtly trick them into lying with a minor question they would lie about but you already know the answer to Colombo style.

[@prosamis]

So like... A jury of clerics?

[@DerekRawlings]

I'm loving this series so far, and would love to throw the Lyre of Building onto the pyre of magical effects that would shake society... PS: Anunderground Modify Memory chop shop would be an amazing detail to add to a thieves guild.

[@271kochu]

>underground Modify Memory chop shop Party is hired by a merchant to investigate a lost caravan led by his business partner. Finding the remains is no easy task, and clues from the crime scene suggest that the caravan was lured down a less-travelled path, then robbed to cover up the murder of the business partner. All the evidence points towards the one that hired them. He is absolutely outraged by the accusation, and denies all involvement, even giving a binding oath. Some may fail the quest here, but those who persevere may find out that the merchant suffers from some memory loss, and figure out that he had paid for a black market memory modification - one that not only erased the plot from his memory, but also the reason why their relationship has deteriorated as well, making him seek justice for his own victim.

[@AzraelThanatos]

Zone of Truth's biggest issue is dealing with memory and belief. Someone believing that it was their fault might say they did kill someone when they didn't...such as the wife throwing a fit that her husband showed up home falling down drunk booted him from their home only for him to be murdered over the night. Or just trying to get something out of someone senile or was completely wasted at the time with a blurred memory at best there.

[@JoshDurelofIOW]

Wheel of Time's Aes Sedai are a PERFECT example of how this spell (or more the concept of not being able to lie) doesn't mean that you will get a clear answer. Truth is one of the best tools to use in telling lies. *For those who don't know, the Aes Sedai are an order in the books who are made up of women who can channel (use magic) and when they pass there training they are forced to take three oaths, the first is: To speak no word that is not true. (note these oaths can not be broken) Reading the books, the Aes Sedai are the most effective at keeping people confused by simply being very specific with what they say. I also always remember that being unable to tell a lie doesn't mean being forced to speak, you don't have to share anything you don't want to, but what you do say must be true. (though D&D spell does note that the speaker only has to believe it's true. Aes Sedai are why I don't put much merit on Zone of Truth.

[@federicor227]

You ask them a direct question and if they don't respond the way you like (and I specify YOU, not letting them go away with things; but in that settings they are the only reputable magic users) them they at least have something hidden.

[@SuperCaleb283]

In a game where spells are custom, I have a paladin/warlock buddy cop duo. The Paladin is of an order where they are sworn in with a spell that marks their palm with a truth sigil, and it is permanent until they lie - at which point it shatters audibly. A willing party can have this sigil passed to their hand to testify, and all paladins of the order are expected to keep theirs on at all times. If they return to the order with it broken, the first question they are asked when it's restored is what they lied about and they are judged for it. The subtle differences in how this spell works create a really interesting impact on the world these characters inhabit!

[@jrytacct]

I recommend reading The Truth Machine by James Halperin. He explores what happens when *everyone* has access to this ability.

[@corinbryant]

Just wanted to let you know this is my favourite growing D&D channel, the work you're putting in is inspiring, you have creative yet practical ideas and your delivery is superb. Keep up the great work brother.

[@Jebbtube]

A hard counter to ZoT is modify memory. You can't lie about something you don't know or don't remember properly. In Avatar: The Last Airbender, a character is abducted by the Earth Kingdom secret police and brainwashed. When one of the protags using her skills to tell if he's lying about something, even though she knows its not true, she notes that he's telling the truth. Because his memory has been altered, he believes something false is true. How would that work under the effects of ZoT?

[@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462]

I never thought about using modified memory like that that's a pretty good twist.

[@Gmorktron]

Bevis and Butthead did this. The kid was so dumb when they asked him an easy question, he got it wrong, but it registered as truth.

[@tarvoc746]

"The accused is always guilty. It's the job of the court to find out of what exactly." - Garak, explaining the Cardassian justice system, _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_

[@ts25679]

If you want an example of what that authoritarian state with pre-crime policies might look like the I would recommend the anime Psycho-pass.

[@Dragmiredraws]

I’m running a campaign, and there are a LOT of fey creatures in it. They were trying to interrogate an NPC who grew up in the Fey. So, they cast Zone of Truth and were using ‘Yes or No’ questions to this character, I was thinking in the mindset of the character and every answer they were saying was coming up as true. So, I gave one of the other characters who had high Passive Insight, so they could relay the info that the NPC was using the wording of the interrogator to answer “truthfully”. That’s the problem with ‘Yes or No’ questions

[@keldwikchaldain9545]

I think that a right to silence may become important and appear early in lesser crimes in a setting with zone of truth, as in civil disputes the ruling class may often get caught out in corrupt or socially unacceptable although otherwise legal behavior while answering questions while in the zone of truth, and they may justify this with a desire to keep legal costs down, even while they hire the most expensive lawyers to preside in their cases. In particularly divided societies it may even be that nobility has a right to silence in all cases while the general populace entirely lacks it.

[@CJAFTER5]

Hear me out, a trial they bring in witnesses, character build, take into account the players standing with the town, it all takes place in front of a judge and handpicked jury of the following experts, a Scholar, an acolyte, and scummy looking lord plaintiff. You're put under the Zone of truth spell by the Acolyte, made to repeat the words, while the Scholar casts detect thoughts and you're under the plaintiffs hex. The judge is also wearing a ring of truth telling. Extremely overkill xD

[@michaelpettersson4919]

A classical trick is to feed someone false information that then will pass as thruth when effected by a spell like this.

[@theawkwardpotato1973]

4:47 - This might lead to extended versions of zone of truth being created and used in place of the regular one, just to get the entire story more often, rather than just what was crammed into a five-minute timeslot. 12:22 - Perhaps the one casting it is required to be in the zone as well, to help determine whether they're telling the truth.

[@SkylerLinux]

So a couple of my thoughts, one I think the Zone of truth would work much better in a Court system. One not every crime is worth a second level spell, and as you pointed out it's very easy to get someone into a bad position for answering. I feel like Zone of Truth is something that you'd have your experts testifying under, and cross examinations too.

[@charlessaintpe8574]

You may simply have not mentioned it yet, but I think the most efficient use of zone of truth would be to have a witness say "I have read and understood this entire deposition, and none of it is known to me to be false, nor have any details relevant to the case been left out". If the witness is illiterate, have them say the same thing about their testimony instead of a deposition.

[@theravenousrabbit3671]

In my homebrew world, every single police station has a permanent zone of truth that acts as an interrogation chamber. However, you have a personal right to choose to remain silent at any point.

[@batou1976]

I have a book I’ve been working on for quite some time now, but about a dozen years ago I wrote an early chapter in it, wherein one character uses a sort of “zone of truth” type spell on another character. Not too long after that, I began to think about the implications the existence of such a spell what have on my world, and a lot of my thoughts on it mirrored much of what you said in this video. I ended up changing the spell a bit in my book to obviate those implications. In editing, I might even go back and take that out altogether. Overall, I think zone of truth is a spell that the designers didn’t really think its implications all the way through when they put it into the game way back when.

[@BlazeMakesGames]

yeah I think that the progression is that when Zone of truth is discovered, it would start as being used for only high profile cases as the magic is still being learned and mastered as it would likely be expensive to cast it for every case. But as time would go on more and more clerics would be trained in the use of the spell and it would be used more commonly. But that would also lead to the rise of memory modification magic or even methods of just resisting the effects without alerting the cleric. (there is a high level rogue ability that lets you resist such magics, which means that its at least possible to be trained in such a skill. So even though it's a very high level ability, it would almost certainly be refined and become more commonly known as time goes on). Then all it would take is one big high profile case where the zone of truth has clearly failed despite everything going correctly. And that would likely lead to a justice system reform over time where Zone of Truth is treated as less reliable and possibly even becomes more like how a Polygraph test is treated by real courts today. Corrupt Clerics could be bribed, criminals could be trained to resist it, innocent people could have their memories altered to make them confess to crimes they didn't commit. And as those techniques become more and more inevitably common to rise up against the use of Zone of Truth, the spell itself would just be seen as unreliable. Honestly I feel like a better designed version of this spell in terms of worldbuilding would be to simply remove the bit about the caster knowing that people have passed the saving throw. That way it would be inherently unreliable to begin with. Sure it would probably still be used to some extent, but someone saying "I didn't do it" under a zone of truth spell would no longer be seen as inherently infallible.

[@Meloncolliepoet]

The hiring a cleric to oversee business deals reminds me of how psychics were used in Babylon 5.

[@josephbenjamin6426]

Your videos so far has hit on MANY of the notes that I ponder when it comes to worldcrafting a fantasy setting. I INUNDATE myself with this type of theoretical discussion!

[@josephbenjamin6426]

Once I get through all of your videos, I’m SURE i might have some areas I’d like to see discussed… I’ll send them to you!

[@redstonerandom2717]

i think Paladins of Devotion would be used as in there oath it is stated they cannot lie they making it them far more trust worthy also i feel like the number of questions and countermeasures used to determine the truth would depend on the severity of the crime

[@ericksemones9681]

Zone of Truth casters are magical notaries! I love it!

[@Baltiri]

There is another way for someone to get to cast zone of truth, a ring of spell-storing and a cleric on call to refill it with zone of truth when ever it is used. then the judge can be the caster even if they are not a spellcaster themselves

[@jemandanders6160]

As a cleric of Asmodeus one of the most essential Skills is using this spell to its full potential.

[@gabrielrussell5531]

*Detect Magic* would let you see who was zone'd since they're under an enchantment.

[@FlorescentInk]

super cool! i love your stuff and it feels like getting a shot of inspiration directly into the brain. i'm letting your playlist play in the background while I work just to get passive inspiration. Thank you for what you do!

[@bakawaki]

I love these deep dives into spells! Loads of cool worldbuilding ideas

[@rainick]

What if you ask the questions ahead of time, and then cast zone of truth to save some time. If someone's answer seems to be trying to get around the zone of truth, they could ask for them to rephrase it in a more definitive way.

[@TCGCasper]

Love seeing this content, hope this helps more people see your work

[@Gamer_Dylan_6]

The justice system in my setting uses zone of truth in interrogations and trials, and in response wizards have invented a potion that works similarly to modify memory. It erases specific memories and replaceses them with mundane ones. An antidote for the potion can be consumed after the wizard is freed.

[@piotrmroczkowski2324]

You talked only about one low level spell, and it has such an enormous impact on the game world. We tend to do fantasy RPG like medieval times with magic. But "with magic" changes everything. Implications are far beyond just social interaction (or judicial in your example). It almost allways has impact on economy, politics, warfare, industry. Most people just want to leave it and keep the game simple, and for most times I do too. But me and my friends pondered once about a petty spell from warhammer 1ed (it created a small creature like a chicken or rabbit) and it would be a economy and farming breaker. Great video, love such insightful thinking.

[@masterbuilder7577]

Zone of truth's save technically triggers every 6 seconds for the entire duration, so if you trap someone in the radius they have to make 100 total saves if in the area for the entire time, this no matter how high your charisma you are very likely to fail at least one save

[@masterbuilder7577]

Though I have a feeling if you bring that mechanic up to a dm it's getting corrected by a house rule lol, I don't believe it's the intended use

[@nekoman8560]

You can have witnesses to the spell’s efficacy though. A Warlock can take the Eldritch Sight invocation to cast Detect Magic at will, not only letting them see if the spell is effecting the defendant, but also checking for the effects of Modify Memory before Zone of Truth is cast.

[@erikvale3194]

Another option might be for the court case to go on, and at the end all witnesess/etc make a statement 'I have spoken only truthfully to the court, have not attempted to decieve the court, and not withheld any information from the court.' Also could cycle through a bunch of cases. Have all the trials, and have a end of date recital where people walk through the field making that statement, these only need one casting.

[@RadeFoxxy]

Excellent food for thought games!

[@brotherofAnubus]

I see your Zone of Truth and raise you a Ring of Mind Shielding.

[@keeperofnecronomicon]

Another thing to consider is the spell Hallow, while zone of truth is not listed in the spell effects, it doesn't seem more powerful then the effects already listed and the DM is allowed to add effects. Furthermore discern lies WAS on the list of effects in 3.5. So in theory a god of Law could cast Hallow on the Court House and bind zone of truth to it. In addition to the Raksasha don't forget about the spell non-detection or a ring of mind shielding. I personally run with Zone of Truth has no saving throw as that eliminates any arguments on "can you willingly fail a save" and "does the caster know I'm immune to zone of truth." Another issue could be what if the caster isn't casting zone of truth, but some odd compulsion spell that will make the subject answer questions a certain way? I love your conclusion, that with all the possible drawbacks and issues of zone of truth, The courts could conclude that Zone of Truth is used but not sacrosanct. I was ready to write that myself and you bring it up in the video.

[@tylerdruskoff9689]

This is a great video. I’m subscribed already but I hope the channel continues to grow

[@esbeng.s.a9761]

There is also the magic item mind protection which makes you immune to any magic that reads mind or detemrmied if you are lying

[@bradyshelton2934]

I DM for my group and have been a practicing trial lawyer here in the US for 6 years now. Party was on trial for murdering a governess who was actually a vampire. We brought in one of my co-workers to represent them, and we had a full blown criminal case up to and including depositions and pre-trial. Great times.

[@Avigorus]

Additional tidbit I just thought of: before casting the Zone, anyone considered halfway resourceful and/or charged with anything remotely serious is also subjected to Remove Curse, to counteract any Modify Memory effects in play.

[@rowanbowers5743]

I imagine in larger cities a court would have a ritual cast upon it by a group of clerics for a permanent enchantment upon the space.

[@literatesasquatch]

I would imagine, instead, a permanent wondrous item attached to the bench. The bailiff asks everyone to rise for the honorable judge. The judge enters, sits, and says that everyone may be seated. The judge lights the lamp and says that court is in session under the flame of truth. You are accused of ... Do you plead guily, innocent, or other? With other meaning, "I did it but it was for a good reason". When court is closed the judge would extinguish the lamp and say something. This might even be a first level court. If you say guilty, a punishment is assessed, if you say innocent you are free to go, if you say other you go a list to schedule a future court date (with a more powerful wondrous item) to allow a judge to evaluate if this was a worthy exception.

[@Avigorus]

Spent some time while the video was playing looking at Pathfinder 2 deities that have the Duty domain and discovered there's a dwarven deity named Kols that's basically the perfect LG Oathkeeper for the devil-frustrator (in the sense of helping people escape contracts) I've been considering lol

[@Zthewise]

Zone of truth is basically a magical version of a polygraph test. A device which has been proven to not always be accurate.

[@armorclasshero2103]

It's proven to be junk

[@keepermovin5906]

If you look into it pretty much all of forensic science is junk

[@SkyEcho751]

The way I'd run Zone of Truth, without see how you'd run it, would be essentially a psychological scan of the target. So if the target believes something to be true, then they will respond with that answer, if they had doubts then they might answer with what they view as the truth, but sprinkle in something at the end like "At least I think that's what happened, it was dark so I'm not sure". This also allows for special instances, like someone who genuinely believes they were acting in self defense, but when questioned you realize the person is so delusional they believe in a false reality. Zone of Truth should be treated as "Does this person, within their conscious mind, and maybe even their unconscious mind, believe X to be true", you aren't testing against "Absolute" Truth, but you are testing against their own truth. So a merchant can have ulterior motives but still want the best for their business partner. It sounds like you have a similar idea, that the Zone of Truth is more like the Polygraph, a system that isn't perfect by any means, but that people thought(and some still do) as infallible.

[@LemonsInTheShade]

I remember from vampire the masquerade the Baali (demon worshipping vampires) had an option to be possessed by a demon and for that demon to take control at some points. This allowed the vampire to be put under truth telling powers and let the demon truthfully answer that it wasn’t a Baali (since it wasn’t -it was a demon).

[@SkylerLinux]

Talking of your Confessor group, reminds me of Babylon 5 and the Telepaths. You can't lie to them, but they can lie to you and you'd never know.

[@popularopinion1]

*laughs in great old one warlock with subtle spell glibness* Also, when reviewing a contract: prior to signing, casting 'find traps' is mighty useful as well.

[@catfoodbob1]

Detect Falsehood should be a definite upgrade to zone of truth where it pings you when something observed or heard is False. And something that would probably fall more under the hoodoo is psions with the ability to detect a person Karmic Impact which is just a overview of good deeds vs bad ones

[@bungeetoons]

But what if the prosecution uses charm person and then pretends to publicly use zone of truth? He could get a guilty verdict out of anyone and the Judge/jury would be none the wiser.

[@infoweeb4634]

I think it should just be that the caster knows if the person theyre asking isnt being truthful. I like maintaining an interrogation scene but the spell still gives you the upper hand

[@jesterknight6073]

Let's build off of the zone of truth just a little. Now let's say that the floor is enchanted in such a way that if the person tells a lie that the ring will glow red and if they are truthful the ring will glow blue.

[@jabadahut50]

A god of law, secrets, and truth could have a monestary of priests that specialize in investigation where zone of truth is only a tool and not the end all be all

[@badusernam]

I dont like the caster knowing if there is a failed throw or not

[@jasonreiyn9311]

In any culture that uses zone of truth this regularly, I imagine that rings of mind shielding would become very popular.

[@jk5067]

"Interesting fact: did you know that there are at least one aristocrat-friendly prestige class that grants the Extraordinary ability to fool magical lie detection?" Daimyo Kubota - Arc villain - Order of the Stick

[@pabillidge02]

great video, you made a lot of interesting considerations. I heard that not using potion of truth in Harry Potter was a plot hole since the reasons weren't explained. but these could be the reasons, like not knowing if the potion is real or not and if there was someone with the task to confirm it then the next question is that if that person can be trusted. In anime the matter of magic to revealing the truth was oversimplifed in my opinion, in Konosuba there was a magic lies detector, but again who can tel if it's fake in one case or another. Maybe Goblin Slayer get a pass since the lying detection magic can only work if the priest or priestess still holds the values of their beliefs and they never let them go once they get their magic. so holding the magic is prove of their never chaging values (but feel free to correct me if I overlooked or missed something from the worldbuilding of Goblin Slayer, if so then all those considerations from the video could take place in this world too). as for overlord there is a mind reading magic spell, but it wasn't used in any nation preciesly because the authorities realize that the spellcaster or even the authorities themselves shouldn't be trusted blindly. still it was used in the nation of the protagonist since his command is the law and his command was to use it and punish the criminals and release the innocents, so only with that level of loyalty the mind reading spell could be trusted.

[@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462]

The most reasonable use of Zone Of Truth is similar to just agreeing to go under oath. It can't be used to compel information per say of people but it can be used to stop them from making false statement. Good for adding credibility to eyewitnesses or checking out an abibi.

[@aengusdedanann181]

In a world with changlings the cleric may be someone else entirely leading to several court proceedings being reversed. Or mamybe a corrupt official installs a fake cleric or uses the modify memory spell to gain their favored outcome.

[@gabrielrussell5531]

ZoT wouldn't work with torture since blurting out anything to make it stop while in fight or flight is not deliberately lying.

[@orikarru7877]

This is actually a fully adapted thing in my setting/system. In the field, one can try to use Telepathic magics to force the truth, but it can, as in D&D, be resisted, and has many of the same caveats. However, there are places in the bastions, magical cities hidden away from the world (Vas'gardun, Atlantis, Eln'dardu, etc) that are blessed by an tuathaen extraplanar, effectively a God of Truth. Within these spaces known as the Verisancta (Sanctums of Verification), generally courtrooms and police interrogation chambers, truth is absolute. No save possible. Sure, you can be wily with your words, but where our lawyers are trained to be clever in wording their tricky questions, these are trained to ask very simple and specific questions , and while some testimony is by necessity lengthy, to chase down every little detail that might be a dodge or a vagary. Further, none of the questions can use untrue statements, as the effect is upon the entire courtroom, affecting the lawyers and the judges as well. In several ways, it impacts freedoms and liberties to be compelled to speak truth or be presumed guilty. But it does root out a lot of corruption. No shady cops, no nobles pushing blame down the chain, and even if painful to speak of, giving truth in such a space is an assurance that justice will follow, as then the accused is brought in, and asked to try and state that they did not do the crime mentioned. If they can't, guilty. If they can, then there's a case of mistaken identity, but it's still understood that the crime took place, else it could never have been stated. This is where detectives come in, and armed with Divinatory spells, they're quite effective. And yes, there are spells that can modify memories. In almost all cases, doing this is highly illegal. However, the bastions have always lived in secret, and while technology is steadily unravelling those secrets, they're quite used to removing memories of their presence after dealing with whatever creature escaped into the veiled world, or maybe 'only' modifying the memory so the ogre berserking in the street was really just a big guy on a violent acid trip. Such things can be undone, though, and when residents of the bastions run into false memories in the courts, specialists are brought in to tend any false memories.. which can be quite traumatic, depending on what was hidden. Further, there are chambers set aside where one can go to explore personal truths. It's a.. risky proposition, in some cases, as being able to go in there and whisper the words "I am an artist" could quell anxieties in a single instant, for you would know it's true. Yet.. what if you can't finish the words? Either you truly, in your soul, do not believe it to be true.. or it quite simply ~isn't~ true, and such instances are understandably devastating. But imagine someone who grew under abuse being able to walk in and state "it's not my fault", perhaps chanting it as the doubts are brushed away. Another interesting effect of this has been the elimination of most conspiracy theories. Debunking can be as simple as not only sending in experts to give testimony, but sending in the conspiracy theorist to speak it.. and find that they can't. Sure, there's the new one that says the Verisancta are actually controlled by the elites so their own agenda get served, but this is undermined a little more every time a noble or wealthy CEO is found to have performed various wrongdoings. The conspiracy goes deeper to say they're throwing sacrifices to maintain the façade, but it's not widely held. Is it a bit dystopian despite the efficiency? Absolutely. But it's also intentional, given how easily various magics can combine to make food shortages a thing of the past and disease a non-factor and housing simple to provide.. it's a balance to the otherwise utopia of the bastions.

[@Ccthesergal]

zone of truth and some using command "speak"

[@robinthrush9672]

22:15 It's been my experience that proponents of social justice have very little interest in the truth. And, yes, the academics too. As a college employee, I've had my job threatened and my mental state questioned for pointing out inequities in our treatment of the first years by sex because we were treating the males as bad for being masculine (in particular, a sort of issue i went to therapy to overcome was being fostered) and the females as perpetual victims. Masculinity is bad and women are victims is the accepted and unquestioned view in academics as is racial bias.

[@elowin1691]

I wonder if that's true, or just your own perception of events.

[@robinthrush9672]

@@elowin1691 Had a meeting with the assistant director and my supervisor in which I was told this was my "only warning" and asked if I would like to utilize the college's free 3 therapy sessions per year (which I already had to build up my confidence enough to speak out against the gaslighting *I had* experienced growing up that the male first years were being subject to). For reference, one of the things the male first years were given to adjust to college life was The Mask You Live In and we had made national news a few times for treating the male and female first years differently.

[@drewforchic9083]

If using older editions' rules on Paladins, where they HAVE to obey their lawful oaths or good aligned gods lest literally LOSE their power, they'd be a useful system of getting trustworthy ZoT arbitrators. A paladin who's sworn an oath of lawfulness/truthfulness under those old rules would be unable to/have much more difficulty to lie about the ZoT results, because if they did, they'd suffer divine consequences, which might even be immediately visible to onlookers.

[@AdamHicks20]

Nystals Magic Aura cast on a person to make them detect as honest. My quick work around.

[@maxpowers9129]

A zone of truth during elections would be amazing.😂

[@mileslugo6430]

I got around a zone of truth by telling a riddle. The rest of the party were looking for an special item and they found out that I found it. But then hid it. I was a stowaway and the party didn't trust me. But that wasn't a big deal I had recently seen a video on how to make a Riddle and I ended my interrogation by writing out the riddle as I left the zone of truth.

[@kelpiekit4002]

Bards maybe even more useful than clerics and paladins since they also have detect thoughts and, if you allow Ravnica spells, encode thoughts would allow others to review those thoughts for manipulation. With a compassionate court using detect thoughts intentions and emotions missed by questioning may be taken into account for sentencing. Though emotional bleed for judges may become an issue. Another area for zone of truth, if used with consent, could be mental health. While delusions would pass by some self-deception may not. While I imagine it would be used with full understanding of its subjectivity in this area it could help patients confront their beliefs for example, as find themselves unable to state previous negative comments about themselves or couples need to honestly communicate. For physical medicine I imagine detect thoughts would be more effective as their symptoms, pain location and intensity would likely be right there in their surface thoughts.

[@shadow-faye]

You wouldn't have to make them keep walking in and out, hilarious as that would be. Not voluntarily failing the save would likely count as contempt of court

[@Alkis05]

"Leaving and entering the zone until they fail" Hey, that is a bulshit rule. You have one saving throw per situation. If succeeded, no double jeopardy. If you can try multiple times you are screwing with the difficulty of the test willy nilly

[@chriswandell3570]

or they'd create a specific area...like the witness stand, that permanently had the effect of zone of truth on it.

[@riccardoromani9916]

The spell doesn't specify this, but there could be a bullet-proof interpretation of the spell. It could be argued that people are so compelled (divinely so) to tell the truth, that it's impossibile that they lie. Period. Gods make the interrogated person question themselves until they Say only the Truth. No possible misremembering. I understand this Is the boring solution, but especially a good-aligned god would want nonperson wrongfully convicted

[@nahuel3433]

Here is the thing though. There is a big ass story in the internet called Pact (and a sequel-ish still comming out called Pale) One of the main conceit of the setting is that the practioners (aka pretty much every character) AND the monsters' every word is oath, so, they straight up can't tell a lie. If they lie they basically get fucked, the setting itself removes all protections from them even those that people unaware and without powers get. That doesn't stop them from being extremely deceitful. There is always an underhanded political or simply manipulative twist on tgeir words without them technically ever telling a lie. So a character like this would absolutely be able to ignore zone of truth and keep up their deciet without lying. Of course that ain't easy to RP though but it makes the spell and situation have a curious wrinkle. So I guess read that if you want to see people and monsters permanently in a Zone of truth

[@Blue-Delu]

Was thinking if a person was asked to repeat after the prosecution under a zone of truth... he might still be able to lie simply because although he might have been part of the murder, he is not lying about what was being asked to be repeated. Although the follow up of "is what you just said truthful in regards to yourself? Would make my hole house of cards come crashing down

[@skylerstevens8887]

Considering the lying cleric even the judge could lie. Using 1 zone of truth and a truth serum on the cleric should work. Also considering the cost of this a split room with sound proofing for cubicles could be used to gather a lot of testimony at once to be viewed properly later. 1 such room would have the administrator of the serum testifying they did so properly.

[@MehnixIsThatGuy]

It would be interesting to consider whether reading a pre-written statement out loud counts as "truth" or not. Like if I read a passage of a character describing something they did in first person from a book, would that count as a lie or truth, or neither? Combine Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Dominate Person, Disguise Self, Nystul's Magic Aura, Arcane Eye, Dispel Magic, Modify Memory, and Remove Curse for the ultimate Confessor / Dystopian Enforcer.

[@goblincookie5233]

I don't think people would know if you failed the saving throw, which is why everyone doesn't just use this spell to settle court cases.

[@HiopX]

Instead of Jury Duty, clerics get drafted for Zone Duty. Though the Order Domain would volunteer, if not running the justice system

[@kailenmitchell8571]

Could the spell be circumvented by another spell that made the person believe they committed or did not commit a crime?

[@michaelpettersson4919]

That a good question. You do not even need magic to plant false memories in people since that is done for real.

[@Halosty45]

Zone of Truth is only as trustworthy as the caster. Imagine a spell that instead of forcing an individual to speak truth, forces them to say pre-programmed responses to certain questions. (I imagine it would take a higher level spell to actively twist words). Even if they later say that the spell was fake... what does it matter? Though of course those who cared about actual justice would take care to vet those in such positions carefully. But the mere potential for a spell that works counter to zone of truth would cast some doubt on all results.

[@ElaineIvenhoe]

Wonder how modify memory works with zone of truth 🤔