Fantasy writing and worldbuilding: The governments iceberg!

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

What is your favorite form of fantasy government?

[@ronecotex]

I'm not quite sure on my favorite for my fantasy government is my favorite form of media is RPGs I haven't found one that let me mess with that or engage in that yet I guess my favorite form of would probably be something to a narco state one where feasible for the player character to take control

[@tabbywolf801]

Kakistocracies make for Perfect Antagonists in Any Rebellion Story! Since it Justifies said Rebellion in the Story.

[@destroyer2973]

I would say the one that makes sense of the story. For example, in the Star Wars galaxy power was shared between the republic and the jedi order. The Jedi Order backed the republic as a aristocratic religious order of force users while the republic was a constitutional republic where senators were elected, but some planetary governments were socialist command economies or outright military dictatorships. The republic was originally a free trade agreement with a senate to regulate trade and a mutual defense treaty but over thousands of years it morphed into a galactic superstate over time. Or in Warhammer 40K is a theocracy controlled by the god emperor who regulates the access to psykers who are needed for faster than light travel and faster than light communication. Don't use a form of government that would not work in your universe. If everyone was force sensitive than the Jedi order likely wouldn't exist and the republic would likely be much more egalitarian with everyone being capable of force use so the Jedi and Sith would likely be galaxy spanning churches that have billions of adherents each, with millions of ordained priests managing thousands of temples.

[@antonymash9586]

Rule of the dead.

[@unkownhistory7660]

Hey another is it possible to write a historical fantasy in form of a in world history book

[@ramuk1933]

In my D&D campaign, I have an independent city ruled by a "Council of Elders" that gain magic from their position together, almost like a coven of Hags.

[@dylanbuttera]

USA sure does feel like a gerontocracy sometimes. Been talking about 70 and 80 year old options for a LONG time now.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Whenever they show a USA senator on TV here in Europe, it’s this ancient fossil of a man. I’m sure you have non-fossilized senators, but we never see them 😅

[@VacuousCat]

Feels like plutocracy sometimes, too. The car companies changed the landscape of USA greatly.

[@thestrangeone5921]

You can also have the tension of the de facto government vs the de jure government. Like a republic vs the underlying the corporate plutocracy

[@thestrangeone5921]

Also, in shadowrun, the Horizon Corp had a synthocracy like you described for its internal corporate governance. It was really interesting and could potentially be implemented realistically

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I love shadowrun. So much :D

[@markd.9042]

I think a geocratic republic would be interesting. The land xhooses emissaries who deliberate with their constituents snd arrange a system. A good example of a geocracy is the Avatar in the Last Airbender

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

It would certainly be an interesting mix and match approach :)

[@trollsmyth]

I enjoy playing around with necocracy, where a council of the spirits of ancestors or honored dead rules.

[@denathegale9324]

My first introduction to formalized gerontocracy was in Lois Lowry’s Gathering Blue, the second book in the Giver series. The society adds syllables to individual’s names as they age/mature, and the oldest individuals (recognizable by their long names) have the most power. It was really cool to see the wishywashy designation of “elders” typically used in fantasy expanded to something concrete, and in that society, incontrovertible.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Nice. That sounds pretty neat.

[@teaartist6455]

One thing I think is often forgotten is that de-facto you often have a big mixture of a variety of these on different levels and that your ideals don't need to match with your actions or de-facto situation. A good example would be the stratification of societies that de-facto you can have an almost aristocracy/inherited rule situation on some level with the same family lines often ending up in important positions and/or the extreme power of big corporations. You can also have things like libertarian ideals mixed with the intense desire to police others around you (Homeowners associations...) and such. These also tend to be my favourites, what would society be without some degree of clashing ideals and idiosyncracies? Personally I have: Heartlands: Technocracy/direct democracy; De-facto lead by a council of experts, but every decision is presented to and can be challenged by the public at large (if you're there that is...) in what amounts to a cross between a debate and theater. Being good at these is also one way to get into the council, aside from being an extremely acclaimed expert. If you get in through consistently good debates you'd esentially be considered a "expert at debate". Scholar’s Coalition: Confederalism/oligarchy (Magocracy); Grew out of a guild system of mages that gained enough power to become a de-facto secondary leadership, now a generally recognized international power that's slowly been strongarming nations (Varying from Monarchies constitutional or not over confederations to young democracies) outside it into joining and nations inside it into giving them more and more leeway to rule. (While the individuals magic aptitude is not directly related to how high they are in the hierarchy it does help to be good at magic and their power is very much maintained by the collective promise/threat of magic defense/retribution.) Glora forest: Anarchy with some leanings of Technocracy. Held together by mutual agreement, tradition and mythology, the closest thing you get to leaders being experts in a variety of fields.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Indeed yes, spread the love to various types of governance in your world :D The ideological clashes make for great conflict.

[@RedBlitzen]

I was actually thinking something (vaguely) similar. That many/most governments are a combination of these different forms. Even if it's unintentional. An example I was thinking of is a technocracy (where science studies magic instead of more conventional machines?) with a strong meritocratic system where the method of determining merit is the understanding/mastery of the technology/craft. This government might then select between people tested to have similar levels/types of merit using methods drawn from demarchy. What happens then when the innovators of the technocracy invent/discover some other form of intelligence (eg. AI or an extradimensional entity) which is then put through the meritocratic tests which results in the new intelligence being higher rated than any of the normal populace? Do they start transitioning into a synothocracy? Alternatively, you could just drop the government angle altogether and just ask, what happens to a society when it discovers another way to be a person? Biologicals transferring to or creating AIs. Astronauts discovering alien peoples. Humans discovering sophont smoke elementals. Mortals discovering gods.

[@pabillidge02]

This has been one of the most interesting videos I have seen among your lessons. thank you! Regarding geocracy, the only example I can think of is the movie Avatar (the one with the blue aliens) because of that scene in which a floating seed lands on the tip of the arrow just before Neytiri shoots it at Jake Sully, she sees that as a sign from her deity which is also the planet itself. The only example of kakistrocacy that I can think of are the skaven that I saw in the Gotrek and Felix saga because those wererats are very treacherous towards each other and they know it perfectly well. Although their society has traits of being mageocracy because magic users can easily become leaders, but there are different types of leaders and it is also something of gerontocracy as the elderly are revered with great respect because skaven who has become old means that they had to survive many betrayals.

[@Jac486]

kakistocracy's exist in the UK conservative party where MPs are selected biased on their gender and skin colour rather then ability to actually run the country successfully. If you want a kakistocracy all you have to is create a society were ability to do the job is worth less then something else. For example you might have a human kingdom constantly elect incompetent elves as its leaders purely out of the belief that elves, because they live longer must be more competent rules then the alternative. Or you could have a world where a sheet of paper that says somebody is competent is valued more then competent actions. A world where certifications matter more then results, if you will.

[@douglasphillips5870]

In a world I'm working on status is determined by service to the empire conferred by those of higher status. People have long chains of titles and honorifics on their names usually denoted by the greatest single status in casual encounters. They can be for various types of service, one character joined the army to gain citizenship, another is a priest knight who has authority over him, and another inherited it from his ancestors

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Nice. That sounds like a fascinatingly complex society.

[@Takerofthehill]

I tried to incorporate some form of Kritocracy in one of my regions during worldbuilding. Loved the aspect of roaming judges that could judge cases as they travel around and instantaneously rule on cases that were brought to them. Examples that I probably took inspiration from would be judge dredd, Tyranny (video game), and judges during biblical times in israel. Though working on the government operations and higher echelons of government might turn it into a different form of government. So, working on making it stick to Kritocracy.

[@starrmont4981]

Sounds like the Celtic Druids. From what I understand, they were a supranational order of wandering judges and wise men, respected by all tribes. Too bad they hated writing, so we know almost nothing about them.

[@MacDaddyBlack546]

You may like the Judges in Final Fantasy XII, they’re sort of similar to the vibes you described and examples. The worldbuilding in general for that game can be incredibly inspiring. It manages to be expansive and provide a sense of scale to the world outside of your character in a way many other RPGs cannot.

[@Takerofthehill]

@starrmont4981 I'll have to do some research on them and see what there is, I hadn't even thought of them. Hopefully, I can find some basic stuff to use and help refine one of my regions.

[@Takerofthehill]

@@MacDaddyBlack546 I've only ever played FF14, I think, with the car you drive around in. I'll do some reading up on FFXII and learn how their world operated with that system in place. Thank you for the recommendation!

[@lapiswolf2780]

I'd like to see more diarchies. There are many kingdoms and types of monarchial empires in my world, but there are also biarchies/diarchies as well as some federations and confederacies where each subpolity is it's own kingdom and all the monarchs meet for foreign policies. Think of something like the UAE, but it's more like an oligarchy where each member is a king with a kingdom rather than one of them being above the others. Another type that people forget about is the elected monarchy such as the Vatican. A monarch is elected by nobles from candidates, which are sometimes among the nobles. It is a monarchy where the position of king or queen is no inherited in any way. Imagine if there was an empire where the emperor is elected. We don't see that often in fiction but it was done before in real life. Something I tried to think about was how to show governments that are not linked to a territory. This would be like stateless tribes. Another version I've added to my world are "convoy societies" which are their own tribes. Instead of being a traveling group attached to a larger faction, the convoy itself is the whole faction, basically nomadic tribes travelling using animals, motor vehicles or both. They often take protection or transport jobs where they agree to carry expensive or important goods like firearms and autombiles. These are both rare and expensive goods in my world which could be stolen by bandits. I'm also wondering how to represent stateless tribes and clans on a map. As for meritocracy, I remember hearing that such tests used in China or the modern exams filter out certain subjective qualities needed in rulership resulting in leaders who don't care as much about how the citizens feel. My memory is rusty though so don't quote me on that.

[@RedBlitzen]

Remember, that many/most governments are a combination of these different forms. Even if it's unintentional. An example I was thinking of is a technocracy (where science studies magic instead of more conventional machines?) with a strong meritocratic system where the method of determining merit is the understanding/mastery of the technology/craft. This government might then select between people tested to have similar levels/types of merit using methods drawn from demarchy. What happens then when the innovators of the technocracy invent/discover some other form of intelligence (eg. AI or an extradimensional entity) which is then put through the meritocratic tests which results in the new intelligence being higher rated than any of the normal populace? Do they start transitioning into a synothocracy? Alternatively, you could just drop the government angle altogether and just ask, what happens to a society when it discovers another way to be a person? Biologicals transferring to or creating AIs. Astronauts discovering alien peoples. Humans discovering sophont smoke elementals. Mortals discovering gods.

[@joaoferreira3007]

There is also Historical Technocracy, who is also somewhat left-wing and revolutionary(in the sense of breaking most of the status quo system), their biggest representatives were the Technocracy Inc. in the USA, but there was also some socialists thinkers who played with some technocratic ideas.

[@ronecotex]

Another word you can go with an AI driven Society use the Wizard of Oz Truck the computer says I'm in charge

[@KayLee-lw5iv]

woah i never thought The Culture would be brought up in a world building video

[@Ollidor]

Unrelated to the topic but, taking a moment to say… I listen to your videos while I work, and I just wanted to say thank you for these videos and providing so much deep insight into world building. I very much appreciate the long form videos as well, your channel is a gem!

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Thank you! It's always good to hear.

[@ramuk1933]

The best example of anarchy I can think of is The Abyss from D&D, the plane of Chaotic Evil, which is somehow more Anarchical than Limbo (Chaotic Neutal), which is too hostile a place for life beyond the equivalent of space colonies or Pandemonium (Between Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Neutral), which embodies insanity. There's also the Chaotic Good plane of Arborea/Olympus and the plane between that and Limbo, Ysguard/Gladsheim, but the latter is too Norse-inspired to be "anarchy", a home for valliant warriors/vikings, and the former is spiritual in a way that makes it difficult to compare to human politics, with the plane emanating goodness and being inhabited by petitioners (people who've died and gone to their afterlife) of only Chaotic Good alignment, so it would be my second guess for closest to true anarchy.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Anarchy in this case isn't lawlessness, it's a world without hierarchy where people decide laws directly by discussing and defining the laws as is good for their society.

[@wesleyjarboe9571]

You forgot the Hive-mind, such as the Borg in Star Trek.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Ooof, nice catch. If I get enough missed ones, I might do a second iceberg. :)

[@nathanmaccay7533]

I would argue that could be placed in autocracy?

[@wesleyjarboe9571]

@@nathanmaccay7533 Only if it is of the type presented in Star Trek, where it is ruled by an autonamous queen. If it is of the type represented by the character(s) Nestor, in the movie Battle Beyond the Stars, it would be more of a true democracy. Since it can have elements in common with so many other types of governments, and yet is also different from them, it deserves its own category.

[@pixiel5526]

I almost spit out my water when you made that joke about the US senate 😂😂 we don't like it either trust me

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I couldn't help it :D Whenever there's a US senator in the news here in Europe, they're old enough that I expect them to hold up a finger and say: "In my day... the Tsar ruled Finland"

[@amlord3826]

Kakistrocy is literally every government

[@gasmonkey1000]

A good example of a confederacy government being part of a plot is from a videogame called "Project Wingman," in the form of the Pacific Federation. They call themselves that but from the way its structured and how the member states have their own militaries it sounds like in theiry they are supposed to be a confederation since there are republics and monarchies in the Pacific Federation, as well as the presence of tariffs within the Federation. Problem is that the Federation is incredibly grasping and in large part run by bureaucrats that mainly come from the "Core States." One member country, Cascadia, wants to leave. But the Core States and Federation's whole hegemony is based on a resource called cordium (think uranium but spicier) and Cascadia has a large amount of it. So to preseve their pride and economic stranglehold on the world the Federation's "Crystal Kingdom" dedicates a lot to holding onto Cascadia, and commits a lot of war crimes in the attempt

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Nice! It's not my normal game genre, but if it comes up on humble bundle, I'll give it a whirl :D

[@arienmartinez5025]

I have a pretty interesting form of government. Not sure what to call it but there are two people who share power over a kingdom. The King who is a descendent of "The Man" who built the kingdom, and the Primary Adviser who is voted into power by the Tax Payers. Citizens of this kingdom are allowed to choose weather or not they want to pay taxes, and those who do get voting power to choose who will be the next Primary Advisor and other such laws. In this system, the higher you pay the more voting power you get, but a massive amount of poor people still have the power to out vote the few rich people. The Primary Advisor also has the power to choose between which of the Kings children will become the heir. Edit: Another government in my world is an Theocracy where the state is rule by an archpriest/priestess who is chosen DIRECTLY by the god they all worship.

[@Chiffoid]

Kakiocracy (?) actually makes a lot of sense as part of personal autocracy, where people advance into power by being loyal instead of being, say competent

[@gwventura1]

I also wanted to add that I am REALLY enjoying these videos. Thanks for putting them out. I have at least 6 in my watch later list. The Noocracy I plan to use in my Gamma World game. There is a faction called the Restorationist, who want to restore all of the lost technology of the Ancients. What better way to select the ruler than to have the one who can figure out all of the old tech. [Sarcasm mode on] Who cares whether it is ethical to bring back all of that old tech? What does it matter that some of that old tech caused the Apocalypse? We have to have it all restored! [Sarcasm mode off]

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Thank you for the kind words. And what could possibly go wrong with restoring technology 😂👍 We’ve learned the lessons of the past…

[@Pannenkoekenplantje]

I'm writing a failed meritocratic indirect democracy. Those are the two that seems to have the best success rate in this world, so I wanted to have the opposite in my world. Its like saying: don't take this for granted.

[@Testtesttest777]

This was fascinating! Thank you!

[@miraclejenkins4671]

Tha k you so much I needed this video !

[@smiley1rat333]

A Hivemind(all mindes are connected) could be very interesting i think. or a partial Hivemind for Story reasons. Nice Video

[@jfferallian]

Would kakistocracy technically be what Zaphod Beeblebrox is? Or no, that's just figurehead isn't it (in the books anyway). Back to jokes about the US senate I guess 😅

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Bwahahaha. Thanks for reminding me about that guy :D Yeah, Zaphod was a distracting figurehead, which is an interesting approach to government for sure.

[@eps3154]

This was so thorough and helpful! Thank you!!

[@kelpiekit4002]

Fun thinking of some of the stranger examples of rulership I've read or seen, usually in comedy. Discworld has a fun presumed kakistocracy, sort of, on their Australian stand in country. Their elected leaders are put directly into jail upon election to save time. So, a democratic kakistocracy. I'm not sure what Invader Zim's rulership system would be called with rulership awarded based on height. Maybe a biological meritocracy. Afterall meritocracy doesn't necessarily focus on relevant merit.

[@ronecotex]

I think a Demarcus Madea perfect setting for a rogue administrative state

[@austindavid7155]

Could you explain what a constitutional monarchy is and give some real world and fantasy examples? I think this kind of government would be at the tip of the iceberg or at the water line.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I can do a little better than that :) Short on Constitutional vs Absolute: kzbin.info66dnQ8XpbBA Full overview of kingdoms: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oafVf5yGiJ2mj5o How to pick the heir to a kingdom: kzbin.info/www/bejne/omHRimNrg8aka6M

[@ronecotex]

I need the AI governance Society it's pretty interesting but what would a civil war look like in that Society

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I might do a dedicated video to it some day.

[@starrmont4981]

Computer says something, everyone fights over what it means

[@redcapetimetraveler7688]

for the synthocracy plotline watch the tv series by Albert Barillé : "Once upon a time in space" where the galaxy in threatened by the planet Yama in which a computer, created by a great scientist desapointed by humans'corruption, controles a militaro-industrial complex worked by robots... A "great computer" created to rule all nations of the galaxy by rationalism only... against the free will of all.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

That's a fascinating plotline. I'll add it to my TBW list.

[@suvilienee]

Hi, is there a video where you talk about how you did end up living in Finland? :)

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Heh, no. But basically, I'm a software developer with a degree in mathematics, so I'm quite mobile. I had a very bad 2019 in South Africa: my house was broken into while we were home, my partner's laptop was stolen, my car window was smashed at a traffic light and my bag stolen (called a smash and grab in South Africa). So, toward the end of that year, I decided I couldn't take the crime levels anymore. I applied for a whole bunch of jobs in northern Europe (my native language is very close to Dutch, so I figured I'd be able to cope). Ended up taking a job in Finland (where the language is of course unrelated to anything else in Europe :P ) and here we are. Literally landed in Finland 3 weeks before the borders closed due to Covid.

[@Takuteira]

@@JustInTimeWorlds weet nie of ek daai koue sal kan vat nie maar bly jy's veilig -.- I'm aspiring to make my life as a writer so I'm grateful for people like yourself who keep trucking on

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

@@Takuteira winter is wild, ek sal nie lieg nie

[@shellbackbeau7021]

You did leave out one real life form of government. Nekocracy! It's where the town votes in a house cat as the mayor, and have to get the house cat mayor to sign off on anything they want to change. There's at least 2 examples in the USA.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

hahahahahaha, I'm so sorry my research didn't turn this up. Would have been an awesome addition.

[@StarlasAiko]

Geocracy can be found in examples of the Fisher King or the story of Buddha/Siddhārtha.

[@michaeladu6120]

Surprise surprise 😂 I have heard of a kakistocracy before. I saw it in an Oxford Student's Companion from the 1930s

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

The name alone made me giggle like a loon :D

[@bernadmanny]

You should pronounce Aristocracy like you pronounce the other 'ocracy's Aris(stock)racy

[@Gentleman_Viking]

You could say that Autonomous Ukraine under the Makhnovists was a libertarian state. Also, "Anarchist state" is a contradiction of terms.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Heh, I actually reference Autonomous Ukraine in my video on Anarchy :D

[@Gentleman_Viking]

@@JustInTimeWorlds Libertarian and Anarchist used to be synonymous, it wasn't until Murray Rothbard and the Chicago school of economics came along that it started being associated with the isolationist, contrarian and pseudo-nationalist ideology that we now associate it with.

[@tabbywolf801]

Aristocracies can be Tricky, Depending on the Worldbuilding of the Aristocratic Houses or Dynasties in Question in a Given Fantasy or Sci Fi Setting. Problems Aside, it is a Good Hereditary Rule Based Version of Oligarchy, where the Politics can Affect many people that call the Same Lands as their Aristocratic Dynasties call home I'm working on one Such Aristocratic System that has a Theocratic Flare to it, in a Post-Apocalyptic Future Setting that has arisen during the Reconstruction of Much of Post-WWIII Queensland in Australia, where the only Remaining Dry Land is Islands that are Few and Far Between and the Priests of the Setting's Past, and their Present Day Successors and their Families, eventually Established a Noble Class of Priests, Bishops, and if their Local Community allows it, Witches and Wizards (Though in this Setting, Magic is Minor at best and differs in Practice from Religion to Religion) any thoughts?

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

It sounds interesting, but I'd have to see more about the details of how it works to give coherent thoughts.

[@tabbywolf801]

​@@JustInTimeWorlds Membership of the Clergy in the Setting are almost always born into the Nobility, but often were passed up for Leadership of an Island or Group of Islands in favour of a Sibling or cousin. so they will most likely Settle for a Priestley Role in their adult life, serving their respective Religion however they best can

[@unkownhistory7660]

During the russian civil war the was a anarchi state of manukovina

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Also Ukraine. I referenced that one in my anarchy video 😁👍

[@StarlasAiko]

Kakistocracy sounds very much like what we currently have in the West, aprticularely Brussles, Canada and USA.

[@anniebot_45-73]

>a kakistocracy is governed by the least qualified and most unscrupulous of criminals basically the anglosphere, then.