Elden Ring - Why the 150 Meta Makes Sense

THE NEW FANTASY ACTION RPG.
Rise, Tarnished, and be guided by grace to brandish the power of the Elden Ring and become an Elden Lord in the Lands Between.
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A vast world where open fields with a variety of situations and huge dungeons with complex and three-dimensional designs are seamlessly connected. As you explore, the joy of discovering unknown and overwhelming threats await you, leading to a high sense of accomplishment.
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In addition to customizing the appearance of your character, you can freely combine the weapons, armor, and magic that you equip. You can develop your character according to your play style, such as increasing your muscle strength to become a strong warrior, or mastering magic.
• An Epic Drama Born from a Myth
A multilayered story told in fragments. An epic drama in which the various thoughts of the characters intersect in the Lands Between.
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00:00 Intro
00:54 Meta is Inclusive
02:45 You finish the game near 150
04:24 Stat differences between 125 and 150
14:00 Mind is useful to everyone m
15:07 The Bullgoat Fallacy
19:45 Build Diversity at 150
20:55 Conclusion and Recap
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[@FightinCowboy]

Didn't bother touching on a higher level as a lot of the concerns brought up by the 125 crowd, such as becoming too powerful, do come into effect by the time you're hitting 175+ For longevity 150 just makes sense. Also if anyone wants to bring up a counter argument please watch the video for the counter points before repling with a reason that's already covered in the video.

[@caneeks8186]

Me too

[@ahmedwolf8299]

I saw ppl get constant invades at 310 I don’t know if its a bug or lots of ppl are over leveled

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

To prove a point. The Deprived at sl125 is only great for melee or melee specialized hybrid builds because Mind or Endurance will be at 10 after the other Stat Points hit 60 to 40 for the builds. 60/40/40/25/10s is one type of build for the Deprived at sl125. 60/60/20/25/10s is the other type of build. Sl150 just adds an extra 25 pts in order to boost Mind or Endurance beyond the Deprived's base 10. Will there be people who don't create a Balanced Stat build at sl150?... Yes... But it's no different at sl125 by 25x less pts. The "Balance" was already redundant in Elden Ring since its all based on weapon upgrades and spell/item buffs. 10 Mind or 10 Endurance is not viable in any capacity. Let alone, 25 Mind or Endurance if you split those extra points (sl150) with the other 25 Stat.

[@nikkolou]

dude the comments section is full of people who obviously didnt watch the vid lol. Either that or theyre too dense for simple math and logic.

[@FightinCowboy]

I'm not engaging with people that want to parrot talking points that I've already addressed here. Way too man "but what about"- watch the damn video.

[@mediocremason]

The meta should be 150 because 150 is a cooler looking number than 125 or 120.

[@FightinCowboy]

Best argument tbh

[@Trohall]

can't argue with that. And it is the higher number. Sexy and more. 150 it is.

[@pitbullnamedcupcake8485]

You dropped this king🫴👑

[@peritusarcus4388]

How about 69 or 420?

[@moosejuiceeeee__1040]

@@peritusarcus4388 69 is too low and 420 i think is impossible

[@ap396z]

Glad you called out that the meta wasn’t established just for duels. It was made to keep the community together for all multiplayer aspects

[@ChumpionTV]

i like how the semless co-op mod eliminated the relevance of this.

[@nazek4216]

@@ChumpionTV Not everyone plays on PC

[@ChumpionTV]

@@nazek4216 you are right. Thats what killed it for us pc players is what i should have said.

[@FightinCowboy]

Seamless co-op mod doesn't include PVP

[@ChumpionTV]

@@FightinCowboy yes that was my point exactly. You can only invade groups. Groups that coop go seamless on pc, only duels are left for the rest of us. Getting an invasion takes ages as the invader. Im not against anyone here, im just for better pvp opportunities.

[@GreenSinic]

exactly my points. i went 135 for a while but i just jumped to 150 once i realized how negligible the stat increases were for damage, how it restricted some specific things i wanted, how it still had some diverse builds, and of course how annoying it was to be at the mountaintop of the giants at level 125 and still having so much more content to play

[@MisterCaution]

On an unrelated side note, 300+ hours in multiple playthroughs and I didn’t know you could cancel out of a larval tear with Rennala after initially opting to use it…

[@thefirsttrillionaire2925]

Why didn’t you try the back button?

[@myfatassdick]

You can cancel out of anything If you just close the game I did that all the time in dark souls if I upgraded something too far and used a slab by accident I already did it in elden ring when I upgraded an ash summon too far As long as you don’t exit the menu and see the save icon it won’t save

[@asdergold1]

You can also keep the stats exactly the same for the same result.

[@MisterCaution]

@@thefirsttrillionaire2925 I think it was because I always had a specific respec plan using a character build calculator before going to Rennala.

[@bubbajoe117]

125 meta level for this game is ridiculous conceptionally anyway, keep in mind this is also a game/community that EXPECTS you to have 60Vigor and 40/60 in your primary damage scaling stat as a prerequisite to even engage with the normal base game comfortably, 125 was established with games where your stats would start capping out at around 30/45 and made sense then, now that the stat scalings have changed, so should the meta, honestly the whole purpose of setting a designated agreed upon "level cap" was less to make the game as competitive as possible and more just so everyone knew which levels everyone was playing at so the online community could persist anyway, soulsborne has not been nor ever will be competitive, skillful and skillbased absolutely, but certainly not some kind of esport.

[@ScottJund]

Gonna note some talking points as I watch the video. I'm of the stance that I really don't give a shit what people do because like you I am sick of people talking about it lmao. Either way, just for my takes: Finishing the game at 150: While it is definitely true you tend to finish the game at 150 on a pretty solid / full playthrough, its pretty unlikely the people who want to get into PVP will just use their first character forever. If they started with a Hero but now want to respec into a Sorcery-based class, theyre gonna have a ton of wasted points, so they'd likely want to make a new character. When you speed through the game to level a new character, you end nowhere near 150. Hell when I sped through the game to make builds for PVP, I was usually at Radagon by like 90-95. I actually had to grind even more before people starting duping runes. So it is definitely true the first playthrough will be in that 150 range, but when you make an actual PVP character you are not going to 100% the game again because why would you? Now what about the people that do want to just casually PVP with just their one character and then that's all they're gonna do in Elden Ring? To be blunt, who cares about them for this discussion? They don't really affect the meta whatsoever because they won't even be playing in a few months when the meta actually becomes relevant for connectivity in a smaller playerbase. Damage becomes too high past 125: I've never really felt that damage scaled that much higher with the additional levels, so I agree mostly with this. The problem is the free points tends to let everyone wear Bull-Goats armor and stacking poise battles are genuinely dumb as shit in this game. To play devil's advocate though, you're not really optimizing your damage with the extra stats in the first Strength build. Just having 15 more strength or whatever - yeah, that will barely do anything (30 AR). But, if you instead go with something like a bit of Faith, you can now stack Golden Vow and Flame Grant me Strength, so that 796 now becomes over 1000 AR ( 796 * 1.05 * 1.2 ). Your Sorcery build could use Stargazer instead of the Turtle Talisman and save 5 points, then use a +10 Int Crystal Tear for your Physick to hit 80 easily. The concession would be you have to use a talisman slot and a physick slot to hit max damage with that setup, which is the whole point - having to make tradeoffs. My mage has 35 Mind, 80 Int, and 50 Vig (bit on the low side but that's the point, I've chosen damage over tankiness). Clayman's Harpoon barely has any requirements so you could still use that as well. When I bring my mage to 150, I don't even touch the other stats. I just go full 40 Endurance and wear almost all Bull-Goats and face tank Carian Slicer. Its super brainless. You said its a fallacious argument but I have literally done it for multiple streams. Here is even a screenshot of the exact build with the maximum amount of poise you can get in Elden Ring: gyazo.com/9d6d63cd64766a76ea4f77257d10eb90 (This is obviously ridiculous though because 133 is so much poise to the point its not even worth it) The Mind Stat: Every stat uses FP, but not every build needs mind. Ashes of War cost (for the most part) barely anything. I can literally kill someone 5 times in a row with 9 Mind with some Ashes of War because the damage on them is so overtuned. In a game where you only need to hit one or two of them, being able to perform them 15 times in a row seems completely unnecessary no? Poise Monsters: Again with the mage example provided, you just really did not optimize your build that well. It is very possible. I'm not even using Erdtree Favor and have maximum cast speed and also Graven Mass for more sorcery damage. The +10 Int from my flask hits 80, and invasions / duels are rarely lasting more than the three minutes it lasts. Even if it expires, we just lose some damage and that's it. (see previous screenshot). Winged Crystal Tear: If we are bringing this into the discussion, then the entire poise talking point is irrelevant because it can apply at any level like you said. It doesn't defend 125 or 150. Its also extremely risky because if anyone has Law of Regression (which frankly every single Mage should have) you essentially just immediately die because you are overloaded. If Law of Regression takes off my +10 int, I lose some damage, oh well. Even if you don't have Law of Regression, if someone drinks that during any type of fight and you are really sweating your ass off to win, you can literally just run or turtle for 3 minutes and then they just lose the fight. I know you know how easy it is to turtle if you really want to. Either way, this point defends neither my view or yours. I think a lot of our disagreement honestly comes from you just choosing to not use any stat boosting items / talismans / tears whatsoever. The point we try to make about 125 is that you can still get to these very high caps but you have to actually invest something into it to do so. You don't get to have the stamina regen talisman anymore. You don't get to have Tears of Denial and also +20% ele damage. You have to give something up to get to these very high damage cutoffs and that's the whole point. At 150 we can get to those points and then also not give up any slots for anything. Now whether or not that's good or bad is entirely subjective and no one is right on that. Your final points: People are finishing the game at higher levels, but if everyone finishes the game and stays just on that character no one will be able to invade anyone because everyone will have cleared the game and all that's left will be duels since you cant invade when the boss of the area is dead. DLC @ 150: I do think that doing DLC at 150 will obviously be easier than doing it at 125, but even at 125 I genuinely feel like my character can't get *that* much stronger anymore. If the difference between 125 and 150 is just 25 Endurance for Bull-Goats or whatever, I'm still gonna get my ass beat with just a slight damage reduction compared to before. If you can't complete DLC at 125, its likely the extra 25 levels isn't going to change that much. Either way, we share the same mind of "who gives a shit, just play at 125 if you like 125 and play at 150 if you like 150." Thanks for the discussion Cowboy, good shit.

[@FightinCowboy]

This was such a long response it got originally caught in the spam filter lol. I think a lot of it is my majority experience is 150, that's where all my characters are, my duels, my invasions, etc. With all that PvP when I hear concerns about the damage being too high or constant bull goats I can't help but think "where?" as I just never see in practice. Most people I fight don't even have 60 Vigor so it's clear these people aren't tournament grade PvPers, but I also don't think it makes sense to tell the general playerbase "You want to be 125 for PvP" when a lot of those players won't be min-maxing perfectly for 125. They might just respec their starter class like I did here with a Confessor to mage. Another big thing I notice is you're going with flasks or talismans to meet stat caps. This effectively puts you near 150 when you consider your stats, actually going to 150 means we just use the flasks or talismans for something else, and that's where the argument that everyone becomes poise monsters comes in because "where else do they put it" but in practice I rarely see it. Most people want that softcap for damage or health. Sure there's gonna be a tryhard here and there that'll take the bullgoat route, but I think I see maybe 1 bullgoat in every 10-15 invasions I do, even less in duels at 150. Briefly on the note of bullgoats, using your same template we could do this at 125 with Astrologer. 50Vig, 25Mnd, 33 End, 60Int, base STR/DEX/FTH/ARC. Carian Regal/Spiralhorn, full bullgoat. Great-Jar, Erdtree+2, Radagon Icon, Graven-Mass. Of course 150 would just make this comfier, but 10 less Int and 8 less mind doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice either if the primary argument is we're not making sacrifices at 150. Ultimately it just comes down to 150 being for casual PvP and 125 for competitive duels, but until more people start selling that argument I don't think it'll stop. I understand where the duelist scene is coming from and the note of how this is relevant when the games player base wanes, but I don't think that's a valid point to the discussion given that the future likely holds DLC and balance updates. Saying "this is important for 3 years from now when the game population dies down" is honestly irrelevant to the conversation now. 3 years from now the remaining players would seek out each other and current meta levels could be completely irrelevant. I mean honestly if the biggest thing is making sacrifices and lowering damage I'd argue the duelist scene should be aiming for 100. That gives you enough to hit high vigor and basic stat requirements which is where the duels will last the longest. 125 with stat boosting effects is basically a 150 wearing a scooby doo mask.

[@irguile2108]

I finished the game at 162 no farming, literally started a new character because I was seeing online that the "meta" was 125. I just think that's a dark souls 3 argument, Elden ring seems to encourage higher levels than previous souls games. 150 makes the most sense. Seemed obvious early on to me.

[@sins7x]

Man you both make great points and really highlight the crux of the issue when taking both perspectives into account. Seems like the best bet is something most people already knew, and that's simply to have multiple characters. Roleplaying characters for general content and PvP characters leveled specifically for connectivity.....at least unti the player base shrinks, but until then the problems tryin to be solved simply haven't arrived yet.

[@ShadowGirlGroove]

What about builds that do need mind stat? Where are you going to get those extra ~20 points compared to builds that have base mind? Hybrids are already gimped by splitting damage into 2 stats and now you want to make them even worse by having no fp to actually use spells? Good job, you just killed any possible variety pushing 125 meta. Nobody is going to use anything other than pure builds at 125 because hybrids have such a huge disadvantage. You also effectively eliminate a huge amount of the weapons and spells in the game that have high/multiple stat requirements. Most people aren't going to make a dozen different builds just to try all the weapons and spells. Such variety at 125, everyone running a variation of the same 5 pure builds lol.

[@joemurray]

Only a tiny percentage of Elden ring pvp players will min max and think about pvp this much. The majority of players will stick with original character and respec rather than make a new starting character for a few stats. The pvp meta should be for the majority of players to have fast connection times. If people want to have tournaments and try make pvp in this game balanced then I think 125 is still too high! 150 feels right for the overall pvp player base. In the same camp as play whatever level you want though

[@MrHangman56]

i'm at like, level 167 and i haven't even finished the game yet

[@soporific9212]

I was 100% a 120 meta level head on the game's launch, but after going through the game for the first time, it absolutely makes far more sense for the meta level to be 150. My main issue with the 120 meta level is how it severely limits the amount of versatility we can have in our builds. All you can realistically do at that level due to Mind being so limited and high Vigor being such a necessity, is pure strength, pure dex, pure mag, or pure int caster, trying to do any hybrid build with a realistic mind and Vigor Stat (20+ mind, 45+ Vigor) is damn near impossible...I've always liked to do more unique builds you don't see as often, and at meta level 135 I was forced to have laughably low Vigor or mind...anything under 150 is way too low to properly warrant being the meta level for duels in a game like Elden Ring, especially given how scaling works in this game. Also getting really tired of the "nobody should have a high mind stat" argument...ok so I should only be able to cast my sorceries 3 or 4 times max before I gotta chug my flask that I'm already only gonna have a few of anyways? Chugging flasks is risky against super aggressive players as well...by saying everyone should have a super low mind stat, you're involuntarily giving the edge to builds that don't have to replenish FP constantly, which is kind of a bogus way to balance PvP imo.

[@vexial12]

Literally the entire point of 125 is so no one can just have "do it all" builds. You are complaining the very thing pvp community doesn't want. We want pure whatever builds. In 150, everyone is the same. But 7 months ago everyone plays on 125 anyways so it doesn't matter now

[@soporific9212]

@thrdrighk24 "150 everyone is the same" is just demonstrably false...120 doesn't allow for any flexibility whatsoever, you're forcing mages to have to chug a blue flask after every 1-2 sorcery uses...you're also forcing everyone to have incredibly one-dimensional builds... unique or fun hybrid builds can't be effectively done at 120 and death builds are literally impossible in terms of having any viability whatsoever. Tank mage also can't really be done at 150 so I don't see how that's an issue either. I have COMPLETELY unique builds all at 150 and if I were to limit myself to 120 I couldn't pull off a single one of them without having pathetically low Vit. 120 meta for Elden Ring is unreasonably low and is just a way for people to try and limit the viability of builds they don't like dealing with.

[@vexial12]

@@soporific9212 not reading all that but the new pvp coliseum is wild. On my 150 it's all the same builds. They always have some sort of hybrid spec. On my 125 it's either faith build. Or bleed. Or mage. You ain't got no hybrid nonsense. 150 is for pve/invasion but 125 has to be for meta pvp and the new expac

[@vexial12]

@@soporific9212 like I said people are playing on 125 anyways so it don't matter now

[@soporific9212]

@thrdrighk24 lmao you proved my point exactly with this reply...I'm almost glad you didn't read my reply cause you kind of involuntarily made an ass of yourself in an amusing way. No point in replying if you're not actually willing to have a conversation about it in the first place.

[@honeyalmondfritters]

This is exactly why I love this guy. I followed your walkthrough and reached the Snowfield at 126. The Erdtree there one shot me. With 50 vigor, the guy butt slammed me. From full to zero. And I didn't want to deal with that. I mean, someone bought the game themselves, why would you want to struggle in the later areas just to reach a weird meta of 120, roaming around with millions of souls, getting one shot by death birds. Not enjoyable. And souls games always had multiple metas. I dueled at 60 because I wanted a break from PvE and the "one shot prevention" flask is OP there too. And there'll be people dueling at 120, 150 and even beyond 200. The game expects you to level up. Not even considering the DLCs, wanting to stay at 120, struggling with FP, equip load and other utility stats, in a game this new, doesn't make sense. Sure if was an older game where people just set up their build early at 120 grabbing a few key items, would've been different. It's a new game, let people explore, experiment and have fun. :)

[@coconuts2018]

My friends and I are having fun running around lvl 200 (exactly that for me) or higher for ng+ and to be able to try everything with respecs or to nuke bosses for friends that just started, but have lower lvl characters for beginners and dueling (sl85 wretch)

[@danielbaker8068]

I think 150 meta is fine. However, I’m staying at 125 for now because I just finished haligtree with +18 weapon and it seemed fine to me. Once I get towards more end game I will probably go to 150 and +25. I do prefer to spend my money on other stuff which I think is against the norm and keeps my level low. Ds3 was the same. Can easily finish game and DLC at SL90 so I can spend my money on other shit. Anyways what I’m trying to say is that just like DS3 I’m sure MP will be busy across a wide level range.

[@malafakka8530]

Strange. I don't remember that tree one shotting me (or many other enemies) and I haven't gone beyond 40 vigor so far with any of my characters, and I don't wear the most protective gear. But I also don't remember if I ever got the full brunt of that butt slam at that point in the game. I don't think one shots are necessarily bad as long as they can be evaded reasonably well. That being said, yes, 150 seems to be a good number.

[@kielbasamage]

For anyone interested, assuming the "one shot prevention flask" is the opaline bubble tear, I've heard that it functions by nullifying one attack before it breaks. Therefore, procing it with a throwing knife or a weak aoe attack would help allow you to clap them for full damage.

[@technomage6736]

50 Vigor and get one-shotted...🤦‍♂️ I do enjoy the game, but they really got stupid with some aspects when designing this.

[@primarchlogarius]

Great video. You put a lot of effort in this and it came out clear. What surprises me is the debate itself. In general this is a bigger game and one naturally ends up at a higher level. I am half way through so I didn’t know 150 would end up being the ‘meta’ but it makes sense looking at how the stats distribute themselves. Considering how even the soft caps are higher, in general warrants a higher SL.

[@mes0gots0its]

@Blackwater Pete Very insightful and thoughtful comment, thank you for your input.

[@InfinityZeroEX]

@Blackwater Pete meta is split between 125-150 but anywhere in that range is easy to find duels. I have 4 150 builds and I have no issue finding duels. Usually I’m summoned in like 2 minutes or there are an array of red signs before me.

[@jacobwestbrook9527]

Respect the lack of bias in your overall thought process, your actually providing real information. As always

[@dragonking1348]

Tbh I just level up to the point where I can comfortably us all the weapons and spells I like. Most of my levels are in vigor and endurance. When I do pvp, I like to be “tricky”, meaning I use a variety of weapons and spells to keep my opponent on their toes. That’s what I find fun

[@brandonchandler2556]

Nice, I’ve been doing something similar. I’ve been experimenting with ashes of war on weapons that people wouldn’t expect them to be on.

[@rickybobby1055]

I have a toon around 140 and its fun, but i am loving no queue times at rl70 rn. The pvp is so fun in this game

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

Their aren’t que times at 100 either, it’s instant

[@austinsnyder5262]

Never been this early to one of your videos. Thanks for all the help and work you put in!!

[@lionheart4424]

THANK YOU! You are the ONLY ONE showing actual in-game builds, stats and numbers to back up your arguments. All these guys saying that 150 people is OP and can do everything but at 125 duels can still last less than a minute and everyone is either pure Strenght, a caster, duel Spear or bleed build. They shame you for not reaching 60 Vigor but they only build for one Stat and hybrid builds have to pay the toll. Also I can confirm that clearing end game at 120 is a nightmare and I can't see myself beating a DLC at that level when usually DLC in these games are even harder than base game. Thanks for making an actual quality video about this discussion and you have me subscribed because of it. Great freaking job!

[@cameronmcilquham9623]

I appreciate your content and your consistent voice of reason in the community!

[@JINGCITRUSS]

I finish the game around lvl190 doing a full exploration (no farming) and it's been cool in pvp even after that level, every opponent has decent vigor/damage absorption and duels last longer

[@WyldeCarde182]

Only lightly touched upon in the video is how defenses go up with levels, at 125 even with the robust boosting talisman +1, good ol Rivers of Blood is gonna eat ya alive. At 150 its still rough but your more likely to survive those opening slashes and dodge roll out. At 150 + talisman Rivers starts to look like a slightly stronger double slash instead of the Tarnished Annihilator.

[@largemanOFFICIAL]

anything that takes power away from bleed users im more than happy with. im convinced to play at 150.

[@eldenlean5221]

As a counterpoint at 125 RoB users are forced to either invest a significant amount of stats in dex for more physical damage, or in arcane for bleed build up. At 150 you can hit the dex hard cap and still have more than enough points to invest in arcane for a high bleed build up(which is what makes RoB broken, it has high physical damage plus high bleed build up). Which is why in my experience RoB is by far less common at 125 than any other meta. Its still failry uncommon at 150, its once you get higher in my experience that you start to see it way more often. But regardless of that a meta level shouldnt be centered around the viability of a single weapon that needs a patch regardless.

[@RevinSOR13]

@@eldenlean5221 I've got a level 35 invasion build and the amount of twinks with RoB I've run in to is insane. I went and got Rotten Breath just to deal with them.

[@eldenlean5221]

@@RevinSOR13 yeah its pretty crazy, but meta level has never mattered for invations, people are still going to twink or engage in all sort of maidenless behavior regardless of what level you invade at

[@IntimacyMN]

@@RevinSOR13 Yeah, i was stormveil invading, the amount of ungodly strong twinks with giga chad summons made me over on to leyndell.

[@largemanOFFICIAL]

id have to agree with this. having the meta at around the level the game ends at just makes sense. also 150 allows for more build experimentation; I'm at 12X and I'm spread kinda thin with stats as a hybrid strength/faith. Also, this isn't the first time the metas been altered for a souls game, pretty sure ds2 was 150 or so as well. I also noticed myself that ds3 did get action above 120 and over 4 years the meta crept up to about 130-135 and it didnt destroy the game. Also as another user rightly pointed out levelling in general gives extra resistance to status effects which just reduces the effectiveness of cheesy bleed, frost, and madness builds. Also theres already a meta forming around 150 and a lot of youtube content for that level so it feels like its heading in that direction anyways. I think that elden ring will probably have two meta levels similar to ds3's 125-130/85, but itll be 150/120 for elden rang. good vid.

[@LuxZoltan]

Im not a pvp player so i ended my Characters at 175 because I just find more fun having the opportunity to use more weapons

[@chazclark86]

I hit 170 before the end of the game, and stopped levelling. 150 makes way more sense tbh. Great and informative video Cowboy 👌🏻

[@xSkail]

Well, there is one argument that makes anything that nostalgic darks souls fans may bring up completely obsolete. Elden Ring is a longer game and it takes people to higher levels. When I finished demons souls, I had to farm for hours until I got to the meta level. People who finish Elden Ring will all naturally reach level 150 and probably even go beyond that just by playing the game. Devs don't give us the option to level down. Like whats the idea? Remaining a healthy playerbase by telling all the people "yo just create a new character, finish the entire game again, finish all quests again and get the weapons you want again and make it so you don't go beyond 120 because we played that way in a game that got released almost a decade ago"

[@fishnutz5196]

Also the fact that damage in general is higher in Elden Ring. Highest boss health in Dark Souls 3 on NG (besides Yhorm) is Midir at 16k health. Godfrey (not even the highest in Elden Ring) has 22k health haha. PvE side of the game is much harder than previous games and longer too like you stated, so asking players to stop putting points into more damage is just ridiculous. Also starting fresh and getting every thing unlocked again just to be "meta" is a stupid thing to most people.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

Its not that hard of a task to create a new character, especially with all of the farm spots...I can have a 125 in two hours..the game has replay value too, making new pvp accounts is fun, I would rather argue people craft multiple accounts at different rep ranges so 80 100 125 150.

[@fishnutz5196]

@@lifewasgiventous1614 its not so much that its hard because its not its more the fact that you shouldnt have to do that in the first place. Easiest solution would be to let us respec to level down and refund our runes back to our character.

[@kennyhouser3467]

I hate to break it to the hardcore crowd that is setting an arbitrary meta BUT pvp is a niche in and of itself. Most players who play the game will never get past initial Varre invasions or a few invasions and duels out of curiosity. The hardcore pvp crowd also becomes the bane of any casual player base because they are the squeaky wheel that often "gets the grease" with nerfs/buffs... Etc. It's all good though because an agreed upon meta within the niche community is separate from the game.

[@fishnutz5196]

@@kennyhouser3467 facts. 12million+ copies sold and 99% of them wont touch pvp because Elden Ring is an open world action rpg

[@tirionpendragon]

The way i see this theme is this: - 60 vigor must be granted for any build (putting less points on vigor should be considered a personal choice; maybe a glass cannon build) - Mind and Endurance are in my opinion shared stats, the points you want to invest are between these two, with a more Mind invest for a spellcaster and a more Endurance for a melee, with a balance between both for an hybrid; my consideration is 38 because this is the point where a maxxed cerulean flask can refill completely the FP bar; any point you don't invest in mind you can invest in Endurance, so you can be somewhere between for example 38 Mind/10 Endurance and 10 Mind/38 Endurance, any variation from here is up to you. - Now for Combat stats we have to assume that any build should be able to reach the Hardcap of 80 if the investment goes completely on that and these points will allow with proper level management even a mental Hybrid build to function on their hard caps (45/45, that are basically 70 levels required just like to reach the 80 on a straight one-stat build). So... To do some maths and taking the 10 on all stats at level 1 as the baseline we reach this: 50+28+70 +1(the starting level)= 149... 149 is the bare minimum for a functional designed build, rounded 150. 150 is not only the baseline for a complete build in elden ring but happens to be even the level you end up closely to be around at the end of the game. Elden ring is designed for 150 levels.

[@corycosta1818]

If you've played a souls game before and you're coming into Elden Ring, there is no way you only finish this at 125. This game is massive. Conceptually speaking, it is absolutely ridiculous that someone would think a 125 meta is appropriate. I've played every souls game. I've beat them all 15+ times and pumped obscene hours into them. I was level 125 by the time I hit Caelid. No farming, nothing like that. Now I did go and kill every single boss but that's just because of my bed to complete everything. I had to force myself not to level past 150. A 125 meta is ridiculous.

[@BIG_GUY420]

Why do people keep saying it's so huge? I can beat it faster than any other souls game. I think there's only like 10 essential bosses

[@corycosta1818]

@@BIG_GUY420 well yeah if you want to have no fun at all and explore nothing sure. "Yeah bro. I beat the whole game. I killed like 10 bosses."

[@wheretruthleads]

I don't understand your point. If your trying to make a case for meta being based on the natural level you beat the game at you would have been way past 150 if you didn't stop along the way in your scenario. The fact that you had to stop progressing levels puts you in the same category as the 125 group. Which means natural story progression seems like a pointless argument in your case but then if that's the case... what's your comment arguing?

[@TheScottman]

I just got into the game I’m at the fire giant and I’m lvl 109 I still haven’t don’t rykard

[@Prokiller88]

I agree with everything you've said here, especially in terms the havel monsters and being able to finish the game at 125, I tried doing consecrated snowfields and that area is very difficult to do because all of the 125 builds don't really level endurance that much or they sacrifice something else. I had problems doing the haligtree at 150, 125 would have been hellish. But your builds that are technically incorrect as you aren't using the most optimal starter class. Strength - If you start with the hero class you have an extra 6 points to go to 53 str(2 handing would hit 80 softcap) then 55 vigor (75ish more hp) or 16 mind (10 more fp) or 15 dex for some additional weapons. Sorcery - If you start with the astrologer class, you need 10 strength (highest requirement for staffs ), and then you have 9 more points which can go to vigor and mind. I think you go to 55 vigor and 24 mind but that's a tradeoff. (Also I would argue that it needs more dex for faster casting) Hybrid dragon - If you start with the prophet class, you have 3 extra points which should go to faith and make it 28 so that you can use greyoll's roar. (or not, I haven't used dragon spells that much) Dex - I disagree with your build entirely, as when I think of dex builds it's not using a great shield. I understand what your doing with it, 20 str is probably what most people are going with. So I'm going to do that instead. Here's my build with the vagabond starting class. 50 vigor , 16 mind, 33 endurance, 20 strength and 60 dex. (going to 30 endurance and 19 mind might be better or more vigor instead) This does more damage than your build (ideally we should go to 80 dex but that's only possible at 150 and the damage difference is 50 damage on a keen nagakiba) Faith - You didn't go over a faith build but it's the same as the thing I said in sorcery. Might want some more dex for faster casing. Also RIP quality builds at 125.They get shafted pretty hard in this game. A heavy greatsword with 53 str and the 2hand bonus is 817, quality greatsword at 50 50 with 2 hand bonus is 799. You're also sacrificing a lot of vigor, mind, and endurance to reach 50 50. At 40 40, its 730 damage which is 90 damage less and you are going to feel that more than the 50 damage difference shown in the video. Final thing though, I do understand that most players don't want to make 6-7 different characters and will just rebirth aka rendering my point moot.

[@xenosayain1506]

Ty cowboy. When I'm stuck arguing this with ppl I'm going to link your video. You spell out my biggest complaints with the 125 area and the highlights of 150

[@joemurray]

I am loving using the 150 meta :) Can diversify builds and the majority of players will finish the game 135 ish if you try do a lot of the content. We want the pvp population to be as high as possible instead of requiring players to make a new character to grind again. Love your opinion on this matter regarding damage, poise and mind. Also, I have done Journey 7 at level 150 so it's possible for you to just have one character for both pve and pvp.

[@mgr_raiden4588]

For me, it’s all about the fashion/cosplay. As for going further than ng+ & dlc(if there is any) I might go beyond 150 on my main as you never know if things can be slapping harder (*Cough* Malenia *cough*). While having a alt character sit at RL150. Which will be used to help out randoms/friends that just want to make it through the area/boss without any trouble.

[@ninjayoungcreator7304]

Yeah I'm going above the meta because I don't do pvp

[@kennyhouser3467]

I went to 220 on my 1st playthrough. Well, I finished the 1st run at around 165 but went to 220 around ng+5 because I was playing a Golden Order Knight themed build that had a pretty brutal Int/Fth stat spread which left very little for melee options for those massive hp pools. I never really pvp on that character though so it doesn't really matter, don't really play it at all anymore tbh. I'm sure I will once I tire of invasions on my "meta" character.

[@Poopio]

I feel like you really nailed the argument here and I really agree with you. I sorta get the feeling most people that do invasions at lower levels do it to try and beat up on newbies to the game who are just trying to get help from a friend beating some tougher bosses. My first playthrough I REALLY over leveled myself, to like 300 because I was so bad I thought I needed to just be a higher level, but as I finished my first playthrough I naturally got better at the game and when I started NG+ I feel like I robbed myself of the fun the beginning of the game gives you by simply being OP. I have been playing through the game on a character I stopped leveling at 160 and I have been having a blast because I am not so powerful and just 2 hitting everything. I let myself level up the stats required for the weapons I really enjoy using and not going much passed it. Personally I am doing perfectly fine with 50 vigor, but I am also not doing any PVP so I don't need to worry about getting destroyed by some PVP God. This was a great analysis and I hope more people see this and understand being level 150 doesn't suddenly make you an Unkillable PVP Demi God. I feel like being around 150-160 is the perfect level that gives you a bit of versatility with what you can do build wise.

[@NickHunter]

The fashion on your glintstone witch build is on point!

[@yaoyao1026]

Yeah 150 is more comfortable for me where I don’t have to be super efficient with the points. I can still try out very different play style by switching one or two talisman, without having to do backup save files and reloading the game every time.

[@shockd1220]

"where I don’t have to be super efficient with the points" is the key, enjoy casual pvp at 150

[@FightinCowboy]

That's literally what we want. The 150 meta is meant to be casual. Why are you upset that people want casual pvp holy shit 🤣

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

You can be even less “efficient” at 170 😂

[@yaoyao1026]

@@lifewasgiventous1614 True but going even higher will start to have the issue where most people are going to be Havel monster. I won’t be surprised to see 60 vigor 60 endurance 60 str build. You probably still have 15-ish points left to spare.

[@bloodarcher7841]

@@shockd1220 all these flavors and they choose salt

[@dblsomeday]

Yeah the point you made about the meta being lower than what most people finish the game at is the biggest one. On my first run, I was exploring and did every thing I thought possible (still missed a lot!) and ended up hitting 125 before I even went into the Capital proper. 150 is just more reasonable. Great video as always. Edit: For long time players, 125 or whatever might work for them. But, as you said, the meta isn’t just for long time players. That defeats the purpose of the meta lol

[@nothingisawesome]

exactly. making it harder for new players to join the community seems like a bad idea.

[@awrebyawe]

Same, I spent a lot of time doing each area and was 120 by the time I got to the capital. I'm not gonna just stop levelling when there is still so much of the game left, this is primarily a pve game after all.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

It’s not a great argument because I can beat the game at 200, or I could beat the game at 125, it’s not like we aren’t in control how how often we level, and for those who aren’t concerned about pvp and just pve I say go to the moon with your level...and then why they learn the meta ranges they can make a pvp account. Out of all of the arguments I think that’s the weakest one.

[@kennyhouser3467]

@@mikerzisu9508 Fair but when making another character after a 200+ hr character you can streamline leveling and gear collection into a fraction of the time it took you on your 1st full exploration character. I did it after leveling my 1st character to 220 to have a "meta" character and it only took a few sessions over a couple of days(not even 40 hrs iirc).

[@2185JTT]

@@lifewasgiventous1614 it's a very valid argument because out of all the fromsoft series. The meta level is usually enough to carry the player through all the game and dlc, when I made characters for ds3 I'd grind to specifically get to 125 cause I would beat the game before that level. In ER I'm not even at that capital yet and I'm already 104 on my 2nd playthrough. He isn't saying you can't beat the game at 125, what he's saying is that most people will be at 125 long before the game is over if you are covering everything. I have to stop leveling up before I beat the game, and this game doesn't even have dlc yet. In ds3 just leveling myself naturally, I wouldn't be sl 125 by the time I met Gael.

[@mattbergamin9001]

another thing to note for the meta is that in Ds1 and 3, where the meta was 125, 40 VGR was pretty high. in this game 40 VGR even at 125 is low af

[@subject_9875]

Im on my first playthrough and have tried to complete all of the optional content I've come across and explored alot. I haven't grinded for runes at all but I have played smart, trying to avoid losing any large amount of runes by spending them whenever possible and using items to top them off if needed to get that extra level in. I'm currently around the Snowfields and sitting at RL143. So 150 sounds about right to me

[@NamelessKing1597]

You can get a lot of levels in the Haligtree even if you're not grinding. I did grind but not a huge amount did every single dungeon ate all of the rune consumables and I finished the game in the 180s. So as far as I can tell if you do absolutely everything you end up around 170, If I didn't grind that's probably where I'd be.

[@nonyabusiness6225]

150 probably has the most variety of people but I have my character at 250 and I find my little community of level 250~ish people and it’s been a great time. There are people who just attack you because they wanna just fight all the time or be a dick but I have been enjoying the nonsense that can happen.

[@nicholaswallingford7742]

Good to know. I'm a lvl 270. I figure with enough time there will be more people around the 250-300 mark. I just feel like it's nice to not be limited by level handicaps. If someone wants 80 arcane and 80 dex go for it. For me I'm a caster so I have 80 int, 80 faith, 56 mind. And I've been working on dex to bring in my blade of calling. Personally, I'm more of a pve guy, but even pvp would be fun with God builds.

[@TheMehkey]

I would even argue, that 160 would be better, because the healthcap change from DS3 to Elden Ring alone is 20 points worth of stats. I think 150 is the compromize for the 125 crybabies

[@user-jr3zr2mp9c]

160 you end up with too much HP or too many points into your secondary stat AKA a spam fest

[@thesecondrei1]

Now that the DLC is out, your comment about 150 future proofing things was spot on. Even in the dlc demo, Fromsoft had characters set at level 150. Also, 150 makes sense as it allows one to hit the 60 vigor softcap as well as one 80 stat softcap. The softcaps for Elden ring are much higher than in past games and the game itself is much more grand. So for strict arena pvp I think 100-125 makes sense, but for overall gameplay with a mix of PvE and PvP, 150 is perfect.

[@nightmare_man_00gamingden15]

Thank you for this video it was a good listen to while farming and thinking over if I should cap at 125 or 150 on my quality build

[@ryanthordsen858]

I think 125 is great for the competitive dueling/tournament niche considering those people are generally more knowledgeable about build optimization, and 150 tournaments would be boring to watch/compete in considering the “full bull-goats” would come into practice. However, 150 seems good for anyone who is not part of that niche, so more than likely 2 metas like you’ve said before. I will likely have a few 150 characters and a few 125 characters for more dedicated PvP. Either way, probably best to play with where you feel comfortable at forsure, the entire discussion is just irrelevant when we already know the player base is about 50/50

[@user-px7st9rk1x]

I agree. People should just play where they want. The people who play solely for pvp should just play at 125 if that’s what they feel is the most fun/optimized for them. This topic shouldn’t be a big deal if most people end up around 150 naturally anyways.

[@shreewhatsup1812]

A significant chunk of people only focus on duelling after beating the game / near the endgame. In my second playthrough (which had significantly lesser loss of runes than the first try), I've reached 126 already. The bosses left are malenia, malekith, mohg, dragonlord and almost half the mini bosses. I feel I would comfortably reach 150 by the end. In a world where I was an average player with no exposure to souls before, I would not have bothered / understood how to operate PVP until the endgame. Asking me to stop levelling because it will lock me out of duelling is bullshit. The game is still pretty hard at 126 (malenia is still near impossible without mimic tear). I would use everything the base game has to offer me before getting into duelling.

[@deepak-ui5li]

100% this.

[@skinless5136]

125 is a perfectly reasonable level to finish at, people going to 150 for elden beast are over leveled as hell

[@Donky_Kongs_Baby]

​​​@@skinless5136 Not really 150 isn't over leveled got to the end with a level 100 build. 45-60 vigor 15-30 mind Damage state of you choice to meet prerequisite for weapons All that will meet you at 150 which the true soft caps are (60 vig - 30 mind) which is normal to hit in all soul games. Anything under is actually lower then you are supposed to be by the end of the game and its obvious that from wanted you to be 150. However the reality is summons, status effects, pots, light roll (which is over tuned) and other crap can cheese the game at any leveled charter. So is higher level reall the issue? Also this doesn't mean 100- builds are good or the meta shouldn't be 150 for pvp.

[@viktorthevictor6240]

@@skinless5136 A bit late to the party, but 150 is so far from over leveled it's not even funny. First playthrough, first fromsoft game, I got to Radagon at 180 ish. It kicked my ass badly. Second playthrough I was 135. Didn't make a difference in the slightest. The only thing that makes a difference is familiarity with the game's systems and the boss' moveset. People who say 150 is over leveled don't know wtf they're talking about, as all a lower lever will get you is killing the boss in seven minutes instead of four. If I'm looking to bore myself to death I might look into it

[@WaterWyndz]

I started gaming to recover from strokes. Actually made significant improvements from rpg vs pt and cognitive therapy. But it takes me a while to teach my brain to learn the controller & process the sensory input. ER is my 1st x playing anything other than Assassin’s Creed n Zero Dawn. First time playing co/op. I continuously fought the big birds, dogs, and those things in woodland ruins? Over and over. I still get clobbered but not as fast. I didn’t know not to level up. I thought it would help. So I’m at 300. 🥺 I wish we could drop levels w the larva tear. Then we found your walk through and videos. They’re incredible. One of the difficulties w tbi or strokes is processing adrenaline. It was so calming following along with you. Loved the “he’s going to hit you, just keep going.” Thank you so much. We’ve been able to learn and laugh and actually participate in co/op for the first time bc of your videos. 🫶

[@WorldBeater123]

Dude where do you find the hours in the day!!! Kudos. Thanks for tackling this. I 💯 agree on the 150 meta. Like you, I stopped at 150 on my first play through, and concentrated on upgrading as many diff weapons as possible. No need to go over 150, and no reason to go as low as 125, as you’ll get smoked, and less connectivity

[@FodMemories]

Love you Cowboy, always speaking straight facts lol keep up the good work brother! Hope I run into you one of these days in a duel!

[@noedit9221]

The pvp in this game is all over the place

[@thedancingpipestuffer]

I think a 150-165 makes more sense on elden ring than the normal 120. With builds other than the straight str or dex suffering the most because of the need to split your points. A meta this low makes only a set number of builds viable in pvp and it'll force ppl to all run these builds since they're not there to just get steamrolled, and it'll get annoying real fast

[@Shivajaiswal9]

What are you talking about you can build anyrhing at 125 .

[@tommasocarpaneto8743]

@@Shivajaiswal9 i have to disagree, yes u can build anything but the drawback of using an hybrid build are waaay higher than just a dedicated one, so everybody is gona use strength/dex/faith/int builds beacause they are waay more point efficient at rl 125, while at 150 all the builds are more eavened out, making pvp way more diverse and fun honestly

[@Shivajaiswal9]

@@tommasocarpaneto8743 it isnt .

[@Shivajaiswal9]

The hybrid spells just suck for pvp in general right now . Now much stats can change it

[@mattbergamin9001]

@@Shivajaiswal9 only builds that are good at 125 are purist melee builds

[@myfatassdick]

Wow this is the exact thing I wanted to see I’m level 90 now at 115 hours FINALLY finished caelid yesterday after raya lucaria the other day and I was thinking there’s no way the recommended pvp level should still be 120 BECAUSE THE GAME IS HUGE but I didn’t want to or even know how to go about looking up the new meta and bam here’s the video I was looking for I’m not done with the game yet so I cant watch it but I’m definitely going up to at least 150 this time I mean my dark souls 1 character is at like 500 and my ds3 character was like 180 in NG and 380 in NG+ because I never cared about pvp but I might as well try it for a while this time since I took so much time exploring every inch of the map for items

[@NerdHerdForLife]

Never been a pvper before (I participate in it from time to time, but my main focus has never been multiplayer) I even stopped at 150 just because I started to feel like I was getting into op territory plus I knew that there would be times where I would do pvp and, while I didn't know what the meta was, I knew there would still be people playing at the level that I was easily reaching just from playing the game. I actually had to think back and wonder did I farm and just not remember? So I hit 150 about the time I beat Horruh Loux, had a few minor bosses that I missed and hadn't fought Melania. Other than that, I did everything else, and even spent a lot of my consumable souls on boss gear and all the armor/weapons I saw from the merchants throughout the world. So if you do everything (and you've played a souls game before so aren't likely to lose your souls to dying before you can retrieve them) I feel like you'll actually finish a bit above 150

[@Phlavorhouse]

Great points, mostly the fact that you’ll finish your first playthrough around 130-150 or higher so why would meta be lower than 150?

[@bonelessthincrust]

Soft caps have always dictated the meta. From Demon's Souls through Dark Souls 3, soft cap for vigor was 40, attack stats 40, endurance 40. Hence 120 to 125 (depending on starting class stats). Elden Ring vigor soft cap is 60, attack stats 80. Hence 150. I don't understand why the 125 crowd clings to that arbitrary number when the reason for its existence is now gone. 150 is the meta now and forever. Duels, invasions, everything.

[@sneakymitchell7802]

I’m at little over 200. I did coop and still get invaders when the host does a normal run around jog to the boss. Like duels I guess 150 but players duel at 200 plus cause they can dual wield ultra great swords

[@CorbinDoesStuff]

With killing Godfrey before the elden beast that got me exactly to 150. And that was with doing Melania and Mohg. Doing every major boss and putting about 110 hours into my play through put me at 150 for the elden beast so that level is what I have naturally assumed was the ideal meta just from a natural play through.

[@quezcatol]

125 is the sweet spot.

[@Jason-..-]

No

[@metalheadlawyer]

Love your content Cowboy. I’ve been following your guides and I’m at 132 in the Mountaintop of the Giants on my first play through. Stuff still hits me HARD. Seems odd to artificially set the meta at a level where NG+ is going to totally wreck you, which is what 125 would be.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

You aren’t supposed to do new game+ on a pvp account anyways

[@metalheadlawyer]

@@lifewasgiventous1614 Apologies for being a newbie, but how are people getting multiple versions of unique items then? Not everyone has a buddy who can log in and drop an item.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

@@metalheadlawyer You make a mule account, so essentially you have two accounts, your first player through where you are enjoying the game and combing through all of the areas is not meant to be the pvp account, once he has everything you go make your pvp account, with the farm spots right now in this game you can make a fully leveled pvp account in a few hours. Then with how lenient the summon ranges are for co ops you could easily trade down to your pvp account, I once traded down both illusory rings (no death no bonfire rings) in dark souls 2...if I could find someone to do that then surely you could find someone to help you out

[@notwokevikingrules401]

my first souls game admits I grinded runes in the beginning with the boulder but I now know high lvl does not work much against bosses if you not good at the game as me but now I am learning the hard way and understand it better and I follows your walktrough so that helps alot and I play offline because I am not good at pvp

[@savagereaper6291]

Appreciate this video. Quality information as always. Hope this sinks in with a lot of people.

[@tyhyhh]

my characters are sitting at 150 i think its more fun also and the argument about how you finish the game around 150 is the BIGGEST reason why it should be 150 every other reason doesnt matter no reason people should have to stop 20-30 levels before they finish the game

[@FightinCowboy]

Yup, like I said there has *never* been a meta that excludes players who leveled up just to play the game.

[@srka42]

Finished the game around 155, rarely if ever PVP but it’s a good barometer for what level you should be at around the end game n

[@smackdapanda4116]

@@trilobitalbino just saying you're point isnt valid because of the fact that there will be dlc which will make alot of people be like why not level up more because why wouldn't the game make areas more difficult and scale to the level of end game characters so your points have no validity me and all my friends arnt even done with the game and are just having fun our characters are all over lvl 250. Which by the way thats ten people of which i know for a fact arnt stopping at those lvl caps

[@ParacelsusCaspari]

@@smackdapanda4116 also some field bosses/caves drop very important gear that some people actually prefer to use so the idea that bee-lining through the game should count towards the meta literally leaves out a huge % of players whose preferred weapon or armor can only be found from going off the beaten path and not just from main bosses

[@digital_bf]

@@FightinCowboy like i said before, thank you😁. Also a thing i wished you talked about is how the argument about mind being too low; is that int builds spamming can veeery easily be negated, infact just about every build has a counter to it, so why should we restrict what we use because others dont want to use the items/ gear to counter us

[@rdavis787]

As a first time souls player sitting at 127 and getting to Crumbling Farum, I'm feeling a little underleveled. I was thinking 150 sounded like a good number to try and reach before continuing so this really validates what I was seeing.

[@NerdHerdForLife]

Have you done all the content in the game, or do you not know cus you're going in blind? I was sitting at 150 when I beat my first playthough, without doing Melania and missing a couple smaller bosses. Plus I still could have gone higher and just chose not to.

[@rdavis787]

@@NerdHerdForLife I'm sure I'm missing things as I've been just kinda playing. Only using guides for convoluted quests or if there's an item I want I can't find.

[@bbailey7740]

@@NerdHerdForLife malenia is the best! I hope you got to her on subsequent play throughs.

[@NerdHerdForLife]

@@bbailey7740 I will eventually. I literally just came back after about a week of not playing and forgot about her.

[@legendarydragoon1462]

Agree with everything you said not to mention lvl caps are higher which demands a higher overall lvl if you intend on reaching them and not being artificially "gimped"

[@scottmurphys]

Cowboy, I was able to finish the game as a Dragon build at 125.... ONLY because of your walkthrough and the Co-Op community. I will save the file and move to 150, that was always my plan. What I really want to say is, thanks for the walkthrough and have you thought of making vids of "this is the parts we didn't do" walkthrough? Like an addendum set that get Dung Eater as a summon and the Magic Talisman. Not a full game, just showing the path we didn't take section. I would really like to see that.

[@oshkoshbjosh]

Personally I love the 150 meta. It gives you the freedom to wear more than just light armor in your build.... which is nice for a change.

[@amrt7755]

Eww

[@mingledingle1556]

@Blackwater Pete counterpoint: giant dad build

[@Cheems59]

there should still be a competitive meta for duelists who dont wanna go all the way to 150. if you want to be a comp duelist play at 125, it hurts no one to have this as a second meta

[@FightinCowboy]

Should be lower if they want duelist specific ruleset

[@Cheems59]

I still think it wouldn't hurt to have a lower level that people enjoy to play at, whether that be 125, 100, 80... 150 is totally ok imo and it allows for fun builds

[@horizononyx5345]

I've been playing through the game as a strength frost build and I'm in the black fire monk robes with some scaled gloves and boots. Dual wield banished GS it's great

[@theodorusrahmat7962]

for me, this is my first souls game and only care about pve, your walkthrough helped me soo much.. thanks!

[@FacelessVoidDota13]

Meta lvl should be 1 lvl, every one buck naked throwing punches.

[@ShadowProject01]

The fact that the recommended level for fighting Malenia comfortably is 120 I agree with a meta of 150

[@deschain1910]

Yeah, I never got the argument against 150 from the damage perspective. I'm what you would call a Souls newb, but the soft/hard caps look to me like they do a really good job at diminishing this risk innately... At 150, I would expect just intuitively that most of your extra points would be going toward resource stats, like Vigor or Mind, or making a hybrid build function a little better.

[@Skegfromcraigslist]

Your commitment to fashion souls is admirable

[@OldScorpion]

I'm at 555 and I'm having a blast y'all have fun

[@corycosta1818]

Jesus🤣🤣

[@Brim_the_Wizard]

The connectivity algorithm doesn't make sense and should be changed in the future patch. First off when you connect with someone else or they connect with you, the game already sets you two to the same level range. So why does the game limit co-op to level ranges? PvP invasion right? Why not do the same with invasion? If the person you're summoning becomes the same level, then invaders should also have their levels adjusted. This way people can get to whatever level they need/want to be for solo play and it would be unaffected by co-op. I don't know why FromSoft always struggles with co-op shit. They should've changed it when making Elden Ring.

[@___.51]

This is what I've been saying. There's literally already a system in the game to de-level you for password co-op. With time the average player will be NG+ so having late game gear in an early game area will be moot. Why matchmaking is tied to level at all is beyond me.

[@romanwinchester5208]

Thank you so much for this video, now I feel super confident I can upgrade my character to 150

[@burns0100]

150 is just fairer for more builds too because at 120-125 the best builds to run are arcane because people either sacrifice vigor for damage or at that level don't have enough resistances to bleed to prevent being instantly bleed procced. At 150 you can make any build you want with some limitations while having enough defence to fend off some of the less optimised bleed builds.

[@paulyz8534]

125 meta makes the most sense. Why? Because the less levels you give people the harder it is to make comfortable builds.

[@Personell101]

So make it 80-90 instead. That way no one can be comfortable with their build.

[@Nephv2]

That's what I don't get, the damage is so high regardless of 125 vs 150. So why would you not want 60 vigor to counter that? IMO, 60 vigor outweights the slight damage increase you get going to 150.

[@azu1394]

its the other way around, at 125 most people run 60 vig and less damage NOT less vig and more damage

[@craydussy]

@@azu1394 lol tell that to all the one shot glass cannons at 125. There's no point in your comment as there's no way to prove or disprove it

[@azu1394]

@@craydussy one shot builds in 1v1 settings either have to make sacrifices for damage or land large predictable moves

[@azu1394]

@@craydussy im specifically talking about people who know how the game works on a more mechanical level though

[@jonnymario771]

Ive seen ppl saying 58 is a good point to stop, since the next 2 points get harsh diminishing returns.

[@suphikahraman1968]

nice vid man! btw we used to do lvl70 no gems fights in bloodborne. good old days

[@Ganon999]

Well I was 162 when I beat Malenia lol I haven't done any invasions or duels yet so I find this commentary very informative. This is why I love this game, learning all of the ins and outs.

[@kristoferprovencal3608]

Honestly meta is really only relevant for pvp, if you don't care about that then there's no real reason to stop leveling, especially with all of the new players coming to the game who probably have no idea why anyone would stop leveling and are going to be your main people looking for co op, and as far as pve is concerned all the extra levels really end up meaning is the ability to change your gear set up without having to re spec since at the end of the day the equipment and spells you choose to use make a far greater impact on how you play than your stats.

[@yourealittlebitfat4344]

''no reason to stop leveling'' lmao, if you want ng+ to be easy ye then you don't stop.

[@kristoferprovencal3608]

@@yourealittlebitfat4344 considering how scaling works there’s a limit to how much damage you can get out of any weapon, let’s say you go to soft cap in every damage stat, all that means is you can use any weapon with max efficacy, but my faith stat for example is not going to help me if I’m using the dark moon greatsword, and my Dec stat is going to have very little effect, everyone goes to soft cap on vigor anyways, endurance is pretty useless in this game because you get plenty of stamina, unless you’re trying to wear super heavy armor, which doesn’t really help much in anything, so it’d really only be for looks, more mind will just give you more fp, personally at 30 mind I hardly ever use all of it anyway, leveling really does not have much impact on the difficulty of the game past a certain point, and that point is right around 150 Also ng+ is always easier than ng anyways

[@KingofDMC19]

I just hope the servers get upgraded to allow 6 pvpers in one game. Great video.

[@mduckernz]

Imo it's more to do with the older consoles not being able to handle 6 players with all their effects and then also enemy AI...

[@MrMud99]

@@mduckernz hope they give it to new consoles and pc. I dont think elden ring has any cross play

[@wesleythompson3917]

There are no servers. It's all P2P connection.

[@mattstarnes2006]

Pretty new to the souls game series, I finished at 162 I hate even thinking about trying it at 120-125 , I didn't know I should stop so I kept going now at 210ish in NG+ but kinda silly easy, 2nd play though I'm sticking to 150 seems pretty doable and actually have a plan on a build etc.

[@witkidone]

Probably a stupid question but I’m trying to do the white face varre quest on my second play through and I can’t get my multiplayer to work I’m guessing because I’m above level 200. I’m not really into pvp but just wanna do the required invasions to progress the story. Any advice on how to be able to access the multiplayer options so I can do the invasions to move on with the quest? Please help.

[@mkickflip99]

Let the sweatys keep clinging to 125. I’ve played so many dif level brackets now and imo there is so much more/funner activity at 150 and beyond up to 250. It rlly feels like this game is meant to be played at higher levels like seriously idk why you would restrict so much at 125 and not have fun……

[@mattbergamin9001]

Im glad you made this video, been trying to tell people the jump from 125 to 150 is barely a difference, just lets you be a bit more flexible with your build

[@qaasi95]

Forget flexibility, the single greatest failing of this amazing game is letting the playerbase think getting one shot is HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. 40 vigor should be the minimum standard from the Snowfields onward, but people are invading at level 125-130 with 25 or 30 vigor. These are probably the same people that also complain about getting one-tapped by every enemy after Morgott, and honestly I don't blame them. The game basically tricks you into thinking vigor is useless lol.

[@mattbergamin9001]

@@qaasi95 even 40 is low for the snowfield. but yeah lots of people are used to the ds3 days when 35 vigor was considered high for a 125 build

[@_You_Are_Not_Him_]

@@qaasi95 exactly at 130 I'm at 60 vigor as a standard because over tuned phantom body guards are such a huge problem

[@GoonytunezProductions]

Your right cowboy, I’m at 137 and just about to finish up with a second play through arcane build, my first one is at 150 , but is int , build , and I haven’t beat the game yet on any profile

[@haunt97]

your point really makes sense. but it is still a little more point than needed. For example I can still have 61 poise and wield greatsword with 28 endurance and great jar talisman (no need for erdtree favor) on my 80 level character. This is the first from game that I play pvp, so I am bad at dealing with gank squad. So I create this 80 level character to have some fun messing with actual team that are playing the game. My first character is 150 already, so I mainly use it for duel. Maybe I'll create another character at 125 for dueling because of the first reason I mention (little more points than needed) Edit: I tried invade at 150 already, and the only place I can find playing team is volcano manor. and it took minutes to find a world to invade

[@PZMKSD]

I see both sides but I agree with 150 because most people finish the game well past 125, and the whole point of the meta is to keep most of the community connected just like you said

[@eliaselias4647]

Exactly!

[@raensaeck]

I finished the game at like lvl 160 and I did no dedicated grinding

[@eliaselias4647]

@@raensaeck i finished it at 163 and no grinding at all.

[@mylesp5932]

Something else that's not being mentioned is if you're on console you don't have the option to duplicate your saves to easily make multiple more focused builds so there's even more incentive to level up even higher. Also, most of the extra points from 125 to 150 (and even a little higher) are just quality of life and basic weapon requirement points, not build altering at all.

[@PropagndaX]

That’s called the character grind fam. Make a new character and grind till you’re up to 125-150. You can cheese this game soooo easily to reach meta level in less than a day.

[@mintymeatloaf6514]

I agree that 150 is just more reasonable for the majority of the playerbase, but the infinite respec glitch from DS3 that never got patched also exists in ER. It still works as of 1.04.1 so I’m assuming it’s spaghetti code that they can’t fix, so limited respecs aren’t an issue. Still dumb that they are limited in the first place though IMO

[@teno777]

This is a funny answer because fast forward 2 years and indeed, 125 is considered the sweaty dueling meta for pvp only characters, and 150 is where most people are for all things, including invasions but also duels.

[@sitheyes7703]

Mic drop to close gets the chef’s kiss

[@MrMud99]

Alot of the vets of previous souls games have an ideal pvp experience in their head of how things should be amd they're trying the hardest to force elden rings square peg into that round hole. Trying to find a meta that makes it the way they want. But a meta level isn't capable of making that happen.

[@brothatscrazy3418]

Alot of people, even the more dedicated PvP players, do not realize that weapon damage is primarily based on the weapon upgrade level. Your scaling may net you 50-100 extra damage outside the minimum requirements to use the weapon. That's why you'll see little damage difference between 60 and 80 Str and Dex based weapons(Its different for Int, Faith and Arc due to talismans and WP). The best you can do to boost your damage us upgrade your weapon, use the proper talismans and WP. Your scaling just sprinkles in a bit more damage. I prefer 150 for the extra mind and End to wear better armor while not sacrificing a talisman slot.

[@rod4309]

your point about weapon levels VS stat scaling is exactly why pvping at lower levers is so much better. at RL90 using 17/7weapons you can get 60vig and have more than enough left over to meet requirements. This makes fights last long enough to be satisfying.

[@brothatscrazy3418]

@@rod4309 I'd definitely agree, in my own experience I've felt RL80-90 to be really good. Personally still prefer 150 due to most of my builds being hybrids.

[@RevinSOR13]

My main character I took all the way to 250 chasing achievements and NG cycles just because. I finished the main story around 100-110, finished all the content about 170. I have a character at 120 and I really don't get a lot of activity, I do play at night though, Eastern US. My 150 themed Gravity Knight build? Tons more activity. Hell, even My main at 250 gets a lot of activity. I've got a couple other characters I'm working on but, 150+ is definitely where most people are.

[@lordcommissarspartan]

I'd like a general consensus to come in for specific areas having certain metas. Limgrave? Probably keep that low level, around 50 max. Caelid? 75 Liurnia or the school? Probably around 100-125. Once you get to the Altus Plateau or the Capital, I think sitting at 150 would be reasonable. However, I think it's also fair to make areas like Volcano Manor, Haligtree and the Mountaintops much higher, around 175-200. I think the maximum you should *ever* pvp with is 225. That's softcaps for 2 damage stats plus health, FP and Stamina.

[@joesheridan9451]

175-200 is absolutely ridiculous. There wpuld be zero balance whatsoever

[@lordcommissarspartan]

@@joesheridan9451 And that's sorta what makes it fun? Just seeing the absolutely stupid stuff you can pull off with all that extra breathing room in your build.

[@JayWhipp1e]

Totally agree. Its pretty annoying watching content creators try and control the narrative too. Being a good pvper in darksouls 1 and 3 doesnt mean youre the authority or get to create a "canon" pvp level. The design, mechanics, and flow of the game lend itself to 150. Simple as.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

It’s actually not that simple though, God you reddit lords all say the same shit and still come off as blindingly hypocritical.... “DoNt SHoVe 125 DoWn My tHrOaT” Here let me shove 150 there instead🤡

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

No one who is arguing for 125 is doing so because of some prestige you are offended they have from playing the earlier games, they all make decent arguments and even cowboy is making decent arguments...don’t ruin it with bullshit straw man argument

[@ruchiraedirisinghe9423]

But it's not. I finished the game at rl120 ish and I stuck to that level for pvp. Just have two meta levels for whoever wants to do whatever

[@samhill7817]

My first playthrough i stopped at 125, I finished the game with a lot of souls but really enjoy pvp so didn’t want to level further. I had millions of souls when I finished the game. My second character is 150, with my friends playing the game being new to the series, demanding they stay at 125 to play pvp with me seemed unfair. 150 felt really reasonable. Because of this game having a much higher player base I think it’s viable to have a split meta at both 125 and 150. 125 for more restrictive specialist duels, 150 for standard as it’s just not viable to keep new players under 125

[@FightinCowboy]

I think specialist duels should be ever lower, like RL80. 125 is basically a 150 with less health and less FP.

[@samhill7817]

@@FightinCowboy yeah even lower than 125 is likely viable for specialist. I’m just trying to find a niche for those still after 125 pvp

[@Personell101]

@@FightinCowboy wow, I had the same thought just the other day. Like “Wait a second, isn’t RL80-90 pvp just a *better* RL125 pvp?”

[@yaoyao1026]

I have a friend playing eldenring for his first ever souls experience. 150 seems working fine for him where some of the late game bosses are still super challenging. Lower lv will most definitely make him suffer.

[@ArmorOfZeus]

I have 150, 125, 90 and 70 characters and can confirm the lower level stuff is heaps of fun and more competitive for the simple fact that at those levels people generally don't have access to all of the cheese yet. I enjoy it quite a bit. Still play on my higher characters too. It's just a really wonderful change up that I would recommend if you have time. Low level invasions can be an absolute blast.

[@josephjohnston1248]

completely unrelated, what was that chest armor you started out with? I like that mah boy

[@Garl_Vinland]

Soft caps do not reflect the “norm” of how your character should perform in Elden Ring. You need to consider that they instead represent the “potential” of the damage your character can deal. It’s a part of build variety. You can have a defensive character with heavy armor, shields, and low scaling damage. Or you can have a glass canon that may deal twice as much damage but sacrifices defence and safety. At 150, builds start to become all the same. High poise thresholds as a must, 60 vigor, and one of five damage stats soft capped to 55/65. So you get a lot of (insert meta armor combo here) plus whatever weapon associated with the highest scaling damage stat. 125 gives you a much wider array of builds that are either built as tanks or glass canons, giving you a higher number of varied matches, attrition vs two-shot vs normal. It’s also much more fun to play at 125 because like you said, things get overpowered at 175, and 125’s never match with 175s, but 150’s do.

[@Garl_Vinland]

Also co-op and invasions are way more variable if you stop at 125. You can invade reliably from SL consecrated snowfield to end game, where as 150 really restricts you to Haligtree and liurnia ganks. You can do-op in the afformentioned areas which are also more fun than just being summoned for Elden Beast. Sounds like you made the mistake of levelling to 150 because some idiot said “Elden ring is grand fantasy, so you must be god-like in stats!” And now you are urging the community to do the same. Ng is more than doable on 125. The meta is 125

[@WokeandProud]

​​@@Garl_Vinlandol all my characters are at 150 and I still consistently invade everywhere on the map so this comment is utter bunk.

[@Garl_Vinland]

@@WokeandProud Eh, but it still becomes an utter same-fest of build variety. The only reason you're invading consistently is because a large group of idiots declared that 150 is the meta.

[@WokeandProud]

@@Garl_Vinland It's not at all a samefest I've encounterd countless different unique builds lol did you even watch the video 150 is the better meta and allows even more variety you're just an arrogant stuck up toxic gate keeping elitist unwilling to accept change sorry but most people in the community disagree with you calling them idiots doesn't make you right it just makes you a snobbish toxic douch cope harder.

[@fartlordsmellytoe3690]

​@@Garl_VinlandI'd argue that 125 would have more samey builds because of how starved of stats you are, 150 gives more room for creative builds also no matter what people will always use meta builds so your argument makes no sense, Also you sound like a gatekeeping asshole in your comment.

[@IvIRavenIxI]

Thank you for making this video. I’ve been getting really tired of so many content creators and their communities trying desperately to force 125 down everyone’s throats when it just simply doesn’t make sense. If they want to stay at 125 and be anchored at Liurnia bridge forever to duel each other, then fine. But they try so hard to force that on everyone else with baseless arguments. The 150 meta has won in every Reddit poll I’ve seen on the topic, and I have seen a lot of them. It’s apparent that most people are not staying at 125.

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

That’s actually not apparent though. Reddit doesn’t reflect the majority of Elden ring players

[@FightinCowboy]

Majority of players are probably 150 or higher just based on statistics.

[@Cull_Obsidian]

Amazing video as always. Sadly I think the only thing that’s going to put this to bed is you hosting a live chat with the main PvPers and getting them to admit all these things on a stream

[@FightinCowboy]

I'll prepare my thesis

[@legendarybrando348]

If they would even admit there wrong. I've seen some arguments by them that just make no sense and are shutdown in this vid.

[@dinohunter6450]

@@legendarybrando348 the biggest 125 argument I'd seen before the game dropped was "SL is based off of softcaps, we'll wait and see". Then they movedced the goalposts. I doubt many would admit they're wrong.

[@legendarybrando348]

@@dinohunter6450 ya that's what I was saying that most people don't like to be wrong so they won't admit there wrong. I understand not wanting to be wrong but if you are just say your wrong.

[@nasferon3520]

So by doing a respec, does that count as flushing your metadata?

[@harrysynnott2379]

Hear, hear, bloody well said. I need all the help I can get, and 150 sounds like a much better option than anything lower. Cheers, Harry.