Worst Thing A Writer Can Do To Their Main Character - Joston Ramon Theney

[@filmcourage]

Here is our full interview with Joston - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqG2hIWgiMdrY80

[@guilherme5094]

I remember the advice of a girl who was a huge fan of The Walking Dead, and she just like me stopped watch, she said : "Don't watch something out of obligation." The Walking Dead stopped being fun, the authors got lost, characters started to act differently and even idiotic, the story was stretched beyond what was necessary, but the worst part is that it stopped being fun, and that happens a lot with several series nowadays.

[@Thynqikan]

The creators/ writers thought the "shock" of events was why people were tuning in and they were very wrong.

[@leeanderson2737]

The cast became to big with jobber characters

[@Respect2theFallen]

Do you know which part he was talking about here in the beginning? I was thinking the end of the prison scene with his wife and kid. But I stopped watching around there too not for that reason though but once my favorite character got off'd I was glad I stopped

[@Diomedes01]

@IAmFailSafe Couldn't agree more. And this is a common problem with many franchises nowadays. Look at Star Wars, Star Trek, Game of Thrones or the final season of Dexter. The characters became a mechanism to move a particular plot device or story forward, but they were sacrificed as a result. Because in order to move the narrative, the characters had to behave inconsistent with their core values, attributes and personalities.

[@LtFrankDrebin100]

Fear the Walking Dead did it again with killing off Nick. Up until that point I firmly believed FTWD was a superior show. Basically the only thing I thought could ruin it was killing off either Nick or Alicia. Still a way better show than TWD which has been largely off the rails for years now. But unless Frank Dillane wanted to be written off the show that was just a horrendous decision to kill Nick.

[@ij1376]

So punishment for punishment's sake isn't always good if it breaks the character's focus on the goals. Good tip.

[@rmglover3191]

This is an excellent distillation. I recently changed jobs, but prior to the switch I had obstacles. An unexpected write up, an unofficial demotion, and took up a new task that was at least 300% harder than what i had been demoted from. A huge lift. My closest friends didn't agree with my decision to take up the herculean task. But i ALWAYS kept my eye on the goal. This statement provides clarity. The goal pulled me through.

[@DeadDogInc]

Guess it depends on ones personality?

[@Samanosuke1138]

It depends on that focus. Interestingly enough, eventually, that character, if his goal changes, needs to find a way to snap out of it and get back to focusing on the original goal. In his example, this is what season 8 was about. Enough was enough. Alliances were formed and the threat was destroyed

[@mazimadu]

Unless if the story is literally about schadenfreude

[@edwardjohnson6744]

Imagine if Rocky Balboa gave up.

[@RM_VFX]

We ultimately want to see the hero rise above the punishment and conquer it, not to be sadistically torn apart or broken beyond repair. I drop out of shows when they become too mean spirited. I'm there to be entertained, not kicked in the eyes.

[@reasonablyserious]

*Or at least manage. I agree. Even if I adore a tv show, whenever it gets too depressing, I usually stop and ignore the affected seasons later on. Peep Show was a great example of that. Things never went well for the characters, that was a big part of the show. And it was phenomenal, but the last episodes had exhaustingly dystopian undertones.

[@RM_VFX]

@Rees-Mogg for PM Yeah, I never could get into Peep Show for that reason. The Dobby stuff was fun but just seeing the angst between Mitchell and Webb's characters and how no one ever seemed to be happy...I can only take that in small doses.

[@biazacha]

Reminds me of Sansa’s wedding, the whole episode was terrible and wasn’t even from the source material. A clear sign of what the writing ended up becoming in the end.

[@YEAR-1-RELICS]

In a cold world like walking dead your statements don't add up. In a world like that you have to become cold to survive.

[@nunyabizness6595]

I hear that sadism is also prevalent in picard and discovery so star trek in name only. Never going to watch them.

[@GarkKahn]

Simply put Your protagonist can lose many battles but as long as winning the war is realistically possible you can keep going

[@moviemaniac1838]

Wonderful how this guy's rules about writing a protagonist is also a pretty great life lesson. Love this channel and and the people you interview.

[@filmcourage]

Great to see you take away some value!

[@88jl]

He nailed it, I had to stop watching after season 7. After Glen was brutally murdered in front of us, I was waiting for vengeance and they dragged that entire season out without any resolution, on top of people making horrible decisions.

[@smoberley]

Don't forget, when our heroes finally get Negan on the back foot, NOT because of their plans, which all fail, but out of dumb luck.....they let him live.

[@88jl]

@@smoberley I had to hear about it because I didn't get that far. This man destroyed their lives and killed people that they considered family, Tortured the audience with an emotional roller-coaster and have the nerve to bullshit us with that.

[@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus]

The prison was the peak of stupid and horrible decisions lol

[@cheerubebayonettaholopaine2638]

thats the point of the series why i could not understand how negan got on tshirts and shit. hes just a bad person/character. ill never forgive him. not even with knowing the background story.

[@smoberley]

It probably doesn't say good things for our society, but they like Negan because he's a winner. People want to be on the winning side, and that isn't Rick and company. Negan won by a ridiculous margin and the "heroes" give us nothing but moral hand-wringing and failure- (in a ZOMBIE show, for chrissakes). Our heroes vacillated over the wrongness of killing people who were literally going to eat them. I imagine the writing room at the Walking Dead to be the most dramatic, idiotic place within 1000 miles, and its in California... Probably another good tip for would-be writers - The heroes have to win sometimes, or else the only winners are your villains.

[@jean-pierrechapoteau1556]

And then what did they do? Forgive the threat, "kill" off the main character, and then make the "threat" loveable. Nahhhhh. The threat should have been dealt with. Savagely.

[@me0on0utube]

I hate when the make a major villain "threat" lovable. They did this with Skylar from 'Heroes' and hated it sooo much.

[@landoakechi9406]

@@me0on0utube I think the issue is when they do it when the villain showed no signs of turning before. It just ends up feeling like they're doing it because the character is popular rather than in service of the story

[@KLK01]

They ran out of ideas, lazy ass writing. I kept watching the show to see if negan would get killed and they blue balled me. Stopped watching that trash.

[@pointatlas5875]

Reminds me of the last of us 2

[@pjbickham3547]

@@KLK01 Negan regrets his actions just as much in the comics and it's actually well-written and realistic. It's not like he just had a change of heart because he felt like it, he had to live with the things he's done, and it's especially fair when you see how he was before the pre-apocalypse. He was just living a biker gang leader fantasy and reveling in it while hiding how much his own life had been fucked.

[@austinauthor846]

He nailed exactly why I stopped watching the Walking Dead as well. I remember reading an interview where one of the head writers of the Walking Dead said that Rick Grimes was a sort of character where as soon as he decides to make a jump to safety, he hits the ground and twists his ankle. That kind of uncertain karma in a fictional universe is always interesting (early Game of Thrones comes to mind). This was executed so well in its initial run, a kind of one step forward two steps back sort of story, that when done effectively, creates a tension to the audience that anything can go wrong, and none of our cherished characters are safe. But when abused you get essentially season seven, where the audience feels like you are punishing them for watching (I certainly did). Great to always keep this in mind.

[@biffmercury]

You nailed it! As an audience, I felt like I was being punished for watching the show, starting with season 7. I watched the first 2-3 episodes. That was the maximum length of time I was giving them to get Rick back in control and Negan subjugated under him. I knew it wasn’t going to happen but gave them a chance anyway. They continued to punish me for watching the show so I stopped watching and never returned and I don’t regret it one bit.

[@thedeepfriar745]

That’s interesting because that’s not the Rick Grimes from the comic, nor is it the Rick grimes from the TV show’s first six seasons. The Rick Grimes from the comics is pretty irrepressible, because to his core Rick is a good man , no matter how many times he gets beaten of broken, he rises from the ashes. Part of the problem was that Angela Kang who was head writer from season 7 onwards, sucks at writing male characters and the fact that she killed off Carl in season, which was insulting and it destroyed the thing that was the entire heart and soul of the series: Rick and his son.

[@zishah6934]

@@thedeepfriar745 you're right. But Angela writes since season 9

[@Ethan-fb3yb]

Great comment, thank you. Based on this, would you view the shortcomings Game of Thrones had following its early seasons?

[@thedeepfriar745]

@@zishah6934 you’re right she wasn’t head writer until season nine. Though it still kinda stings to have Rick and Daryl, two of these really fantastic characters in the early seasons just end up being sidelined from season seven onward.

[@Melvin7727]

Diminishing Returns, too. Robert McKee talks about it in his book, Story. Paraphrasing this because I can't remember his specific example: "If your character's wife leaves him, the audience will feel bad for him. If the character falls in love with a new girl and then she cheats on him, the audience will feel awful. If the character falls in love with another girl and then she dies, the audience will laugh."

[@HappyUggs]

“Creates the wound that we’re all looking to heal” that’s a really good summary of why I think a lot of people enjoy certain stories

[@JD-xz1mx]

A common writing mistake right now, especially in genre fiction, is forgetting the purpose of the trials and tribulations of the middle of the story. The purpose of putting your characters through hell isn't because its cool and surprising that they went through hell. The purpose of putting your character through hell is to set up your resolution, whatever that might be. This is why the end of Game of Thrones was received so poorly, and the cast and crew were so surprised that it was. They genuinely thought that the sheer *SURPRISE* of Red Weddings and executions were the point. That subverting expectations in and of itself is what made the show an audience. No, those things were effective because it created anticipation. Now that character X is dead, how does that storyline resolve? If you keep demanding your audience be invested in your characters without giving those characters a payoff, eventually people are going to get tired of investing.

[@YTAG33]

That is a really good point. A lot of writing in popular media now is all about continually generating more and more plot threads and more plot twists to keep a story going indefinitely. Eventually an audience wants some actual resolution to plot points. It seems common now in a lot of shows and movies to keep adding more and more plot points to keep things going forward and not actually worrying about resolving them.

[@acfan8253]

The game of thrones case is because George RR Martin never finished the last book, so the writers, “un-talentedly”, tried to close the last two seasons on their own, that’s why they took like a year gap and reduced the amount of episodes to just six. If the producers, writers and George RR Martin actually had cared to give it a proper conclusion they would chose to wait until George RR Martin completed his entire line of books. But even Martin chose to start the tv show adaptation without knowing when he would finish the last book and the rest is history. He still hasn’t finished it and has said now he doesn’t know if he will… that’s the problem with this show and books, everyone dived into the pool before learning how to swim back to surface

[@AlexTheDiamond]

Make me fall in ♥️ with a main character… then kill the character brutally. I’m out. Life is hard enough.

[@guilherme5094]

I should have done this at the end of the first season of GOT.

[@Itstwofourteen]

"Last Of Us, Part II" has entered the chat...

[@dubuyajay9964]

Especially the past 5-10 years to the present. And there's no sign of things getting better...at all.

[@BIGxBOSSxx1]

If you’re too cowardly to face a fictional characters death, especially within the context of a post apocalyptic world where the likely hood of survival is already low, you need to stick to your fucking cookie cutter Disney bullshit way of storytelling. Where the good guys always win and it’s all sunshine and rainbows in the end. I fucking love it when the main characters i know and love die, because that makes any scene where they’re in danger have intensity - knowing whether or not they’re gonna make it out because there’s unsafe. That’s the sign of good story telling.

[@supermetroid009]

@@BIGxBOSSxx1 ( Guitar riff..then cuts a big loud fart) yeah dude .....that's ur opinion.

[@abc4781]

I believe from Berserk is the perfect example of a protagonist who's constantly receiving punishment and the world is stacked against him though against all odds he still prevails and always reigns victorious.

[@Jay-ru3hx]

If I wanted to constantly see bad things happen to good people, I'd just read crime reports or watch the news. This is the same reason I disliked game of thrones. Challenges are good. Watching a likable character overcome challenges is good. Watching a likable character constantly getting crushed by challenges is crushing to the viewer. Tragedy is important and has a place and time. It creates a low point to reference or contrast against. Perpetual tragedy is soul crushing.

[@landoakechi9406]

I mean, the whole plot of Game of Thrones seems to be about the Stark kids rising above the hardships that come to them

[@yooooo8600]

Personal preference I guess. I personally find happy endings to be incredibly boring. Arcane, for example, is a masterclass in doing tragedy well.

[@nbucwa6621]

@@landoakechi9406 GoT really pushed that limit with the season where the guy gets tortured incessantly with no end in sight. A lot of the audience got antsy around there but unlike TWD, luckily they pulled back just at the limit.

[@Relek448]

Warhammer 40k is also guilty of this with the whole setting preventing any form of meaningful triumphs

[@The_Devil_Breaker_]

Demon Slayer is great

[@marscentral]

I think it's because no one wants a story that's emotionally bleak. A story can be about bleak things, some of the very best are, but those stories are usually about overcoming it. Finding hope in hopeless situations. If the protagonist accepts the bleakness, if they go from striving to surviving, then they cease to be a protagonist.

[@yooooo8600]

Or they succumb to the hopelessness and essentially transform into a new character. Thinking of characters like Darth Vader.

[@tymills22]

Eren Yaeger

[@bwackbeedows3629]

@@tymills22 He's actually a great example of how to do this right. Eren always had the Hero complex; it got him eaten, it made him an enemy of the state and then drove him to become the hero of his kingdom. But when he realized the truth about his people's struggle, the only way he could reconcile and remain "the hero" in his mind, was to become the enemy of everything else -- the entire world.

[@bwackbeedows3629]

A perfect example is Cassandra, Princess of Troy. Cursed with the gift of flawless prophecy, with the addition of never being believed by anyone -- all because she didn't want to have sex with Apollo. Cassandra watches her kingdom fall over the course of years, as everyone claims her countless, perfect predictions were just coincidence after the fact and just plain madness before. Her brothers were killed in war, child nephews butchered like cattle as the Greeks breached the walls; younger sisters and nieces taken as slave wives. Her mother fell into madness as Greeks fought over who got to keep her as a personal pet -- the former queen gnashing her teeth, foaming at the mouth as the gods pity her and turn her into a hound. Cassandra hid in a temple to Athena as the Greeks left the Trojan Horse and began to pillage. She was found by Ajax the Lesser, a marauding Greek man looting the temple. She was raped by him as she cried out to Athena, in _her_ temple, while clutching an idol of the goddess. *Athena averted the eyes of her statue so she didn't have to watch or hear Cassandra's pleas.* Later, with Troy burned to the ground, Cassandra was taken by King Agamemnon as a prize. After being on a ship with him as his slave for over a year, she gave birth to two of his children. Cassandra and her infant children were then killed by Queen Clytemnestra, the wife of Agamemnon, because she was purportedly "jealous of Cassandra". Her life was nothing but tragedy, yet she was nothing but the proactive protagonist, seeking to solve her the problems of her kingdom. Yet like Rick, Cassandra was *always* punished for wanting to do the right thing. To be honest, I always feel wronged and heartbroken with this story. Tragedy for tragedy's sake just feels wrong.

[@magnarcreed3801]

I love stores that are hopeless like this. It’s real and gritty. I hate shows were shit goes right. Main characters should die.

[@shmeebs387]

There's only so much you can do when your MC's only real motivation is "don't die." Sure, there are enemies and vendettas that form, but it's all in service to and stems from "I don't want myself or my family to die." There needs to be a light at the end of the punishment tunnel. It all has to be worth it.

[@smoberley]

You know, it's funny. The comic managed to run for years, had the same storyline, and never had to resort to this level of crap. The same storyline exists in the Walking Dead comic, and it was enough to put me off of the comic as well, but in that version, Rick is never beaten. He's going along to lull Negan into a false sense of security, but from moment one he's working to defeat him, rather than being beaten by him.

[@magnarcreed3801]

Wrong. You can do anything and everything if the characters motivation is to not die.

[@ZeroKitsune]

@@magnarcreed3801 If they character's only motivation is to not die, they aren't much of a character.

[@magnarcreed3801]

@@ZeroKitsune Not true. That’s fundamentally who almost all of us are except the suicidal ones. That’s commonality. Something that connects us. And they can still have personality with their motivation being survival. Promise.

[@foreverdm7000]

@@magnarcreed3801 that is the most basic if "motivations" because most of us don't have control of our need to survive. It's not a real motivation because it isn't unique to anyone. Everyone wants to "survive". The question should be: "Survive for what?"

[@wenis.kingkong]

The point that made drop off was when Carl was killed for no reason but shock value and a way to meld him into a stupid plot device to make Rick not kill Negan. For me the heart of the walking dead was the relationship between father and son in the apocalypse and how Rick would do anything to keep Carl alive. Carl was supposed to take on Ricks role eventually and without him that’s gone. There’s still Judith but it’s not the same. The heart is gone.

[@zypalitra8080]

100% - the heart of the show, down past the zombies, the gore, and the fighting, is about Rick protecting his family and the struggles that come with that simple task. With Carl out of the loop, Rick has no place in the show. Yeah there's still Judith, which could reinvigorate Rick's approach to survival, but Carl being gone just ruined it. If Carl had stayed and Rick had died it would'nt have been the same situation as Carl would have been more than capable of protecting himself and no longer require Rick to be there.

[@puttputt524]

Carl not dying was the whole premise of the comic (which I also stopped reading).

[@Niptonian9551]

Same, Rick cannot recover at that point. I just stopped caring.

[@ItApproaches]

The reason Carl was killed off was because the actor was turning 18 and the show refused to pay him an adult wage. The kid explained it in interviews.

[@eileenheath1968]

@@Niptonian9551 Very aptly put.

[@Darrylizer1]

What Joston is talking about here is exactly why I stopped watching The Walking Dead. There was too much punishment, too much endless misery and no relief. Combine that with the loss of almost all the characters I loved and I just didn't care anymore. I noped out soon after Rick left. The Whisperers became supremely annoying.

[@maxheadroom4659]

yeah after they killed Jesus I was done.

[@dylanburton4955]

The comics are even darker than the show, like honestly the show is pretty tame compared to what Robert Kirkman does in the comics

[@coolmuzt]

@@dylanburton4955 The comics are fun. The show is not.

[@bubblewrapstargirl]

I was gone when Carl died. I didn't even finished it the season I just dipped. You kill off the main character's motivation to survive and succeed, the natural inheritor and successor, the first of a new generation who grew up with this changed world as their reality, and for what? A cheap shock that has no impact on the narrative, when if it HAD to happen it would have been a GAME CHANGER for the show. If Carl had to die it should have been in a blaze of glory with excellent narrative build up and Rick should have gone on the warpath to avenge him. Not from a completely avoidable, uncharacteristic slip-up.

[@christiankallio8586]

Isn't that TWD in a nutshell? It's supposed to be hopeless and full of punishment because that's what the world in TWD has become

[@O4C209]

We don't want to watch someone subsist, we want to watch someone overcome.

[@BloodDjimon614]

Not always. The failure just has to be emotionally useful. They wrote themselves into a corner because they seemingly had no plan past that point. There's still good moments in the following seasons but there's SO much useless filler and no stakes, until there's massive stakes out of nowhere. They've lost the ability to create natural tension because they've stopped introducing new character to replace old ones, because the old characters just keep unrealistically hanging around. They departed so far from the source material that keeping the characters around that would've carried that material made no sense. Honestly, they should have killed off Rick in that moment instead. It would have been a shock to readers and rejuvenated the show by allowing the focus to naturally shift to someone else.

[@digitalbios]

I remember tapping out of TWD one-third of the way into S08. I just couldn't anymore. I was the main proponent of the show within my family and got a whole lot of members hooked on it. How things have changed.

[@scifirealism5943]

You've inspired me to become a science fiction writer.

[@eobardthawn6903]

Eobard Thawne believes in you.

[@arthurpendragon8192]

@@eobardthawn6903 Hows it going being stuck in a paradox in injustice 2? :P lmao

[@eobardthawn6903]

@@arthurpendragon8192 I'm always stuck in a paradox lol. Worst part of it all is I don't exist, yet still can't die, lol not fun to be highly depressed. Super Serial though, not that bad, worst part of it is porn doesn't have the same highly quality as the future, there you can have perfectly realistic waifu simulations. 👌

[@marie-pearlopoku8604]

And you’re gonna be great at that

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

@@eobardthawn6903 me too!

[@twhite91911]

I stopped watching this show because stories have a beginning, middle and end and unfortunately the creators wanted to milk the middle and forget an ending. The hero's journey became lost and without purpose and the characters soon became the Walking Dead going aimlessly across the land finding a compound, fighting the nearest "big boss", find new home then rinse and repeat.... Also the fake me out dumpster death ruined the show for me honestly - I stopped caring about the characters.

[@mousc460]

Same

[@shepherdstar14]

I agree with this so much. There are clear story beats though out every story and people saying “it’s more realistic cause anyone can die” are full of shit because that still doesn’t excuse the lack of attention to the story beats where it started out as a hero’s journey, the middle of the series which I believe is season 6 has the hero now have the big responsibility of being a leader of a whole community but he is torn down and fallen by the end of season 6, and now season7-11 should have been the resolution to how the story resolves things and how characters grow and become smarter and make smarter decisions and outsmart the antagonists and lose less of their lives so that by the end point, because there IS an end for The Walking Dead, by the end we should see that all the characters introduced have a satisfying conclusion, that’s when you can “kill off” an important character who the story all but promises to follow but changes it’s mind halfway through the conclusion.

[@circedelune]

I stopped watching long before that. I stopped watching when it became survival at any cost, with little humanity or dignity and no honor. That’s not a goal i am interested in. What’s the point of a life that is merely about nothing more than surviving. If you lose everything higher than survival instinct about yourself, you may as well be dead.

[@traviscue2099]

The comics were meant to be never ending when they started. The show had sooo much filler, and yeah milking it. A lot of amazing scenes in a pretty average show.

[@avivastudios2311]

So stopping at season 3 was a good choice then. Thanks

[@thundergodcid960]

I’ve dropped plenty of stories and fanfics that make the same mistake of punishing their protagonist way too often. It’s good to have the characters struggle, but not to beat them down relentlessly. And also not to arbitrarily throw in another obstacle just because the writer wanted to pad out a story arc that’s clearly finished.

[@TheMightyPika]

This guy is fantastic. Always love his interviews. I learn something new every time.

[@victoriacaine7040]

I stopped watching because the main character literally flew away in a helicopter, never to be seen again. They killed off almost all the main characters and what we were left with Daryl, Carol and a couple others. Rick WAS the show. It's a shame to see such a brilliant show turn into microwaved zombie apocalypse drudgery.

[@Slayer-Josh]

So much went wrong for the walking dead in season 7 and on. They find the “safe zone” in season 5 but then it got destroyed repeatedly for the next few seasons, which in the context of the show took place over just a few weeks/months. Too many main characters killed off, too many sudden character changes, and out of character actions to advance the plot. The show went from being a dramatic take on survival in a realistic apocalypse to a run of the mill b movie with uninteresting characters fighting endless armies of bad guys and zombies.

[@Jordo246]

You absolutely nailed it. I used to love coming home from college back in 2011 and being excited to watch the new Walking Dead episodes. I was completely on board up until around the middle of season 4, season 2 was a bit boring in the middle but it was still relatively new at the time and like you said a realistic take on zombie survival. I think the moment i started disliking the show was after the prison battle mid season break, when the entire second half of that season was just splinter groups walking around the woods and it felt like it went on and on and on to the point that I stopped watching for about a year before coming back. I never liked the show as much after that and I stopped altogether once the Negan arc was over, don't have a clue what happened after that and I don't care to find out. As you said the show just felt like it was going in circles, new safe place, new enemy, repeat. This is without even mentioning all the pointless filler episodes over all the seasons that make way too much of the show. All characters felt like they had already reached their logical arc conclusions and where do you even take them after that. It should have been 5 seasons long and ended.

[@johnwells5414]

I remember the show 24. I loved that show! I really enjoyed the earlier seasons where we see Jack Bauer overcome terror attacks, family conflict, political intrigue, etc. After season 5 he took on the president of the United States, and was thrown into a Chinese prison where he was tortured for 2 years. While I still watched the show to the very end, the later seasons his character became a little static, and he was repeatedly losing his humanity to the point where his character was pretty much a superhero. So it became harder to feel for him, or root for him because you knew he would do or survive anything. He was always right, and always doing right.

[@holdyourfire74]

I totally agree. The first few seasons were amazing! Even with the same basic formula each season felt different and the stakes were always higher. At some point though the torture and punishment that Jack and the people he loved endured was just too much and his character become a boring cliche of "I tried to get out, but they keep pulling me back in." All the horrible things he had to do which had consequences in the earlier seasons had none later on. In the end, I was only rooting for him because he was the main character. I finally stopped watching after I think season 7. Tried watching the reboots, but just couldn't get into them.

[@johnwells5414]

@@holdyourfire74 Right?! I remember in season 8 his girlfriend gets shot and killed in front of him and it was meant to be this big emotional moment, but if anything her death just felt forced and if anything the story would have seemed more gutsy that she stayed alive.

[@stupid0244]

Well said! I loved 24 as a show. Season 5 was great, but it also killed off so many characters. Season 6 was kind of pathetic and formulaic. Season 7 brought me back a little, and then 8 was pretty bad. I kind of wish we just got a movie finale after season 5, or maybe just a condensed version of season 7, which did have some good parts. The story needed to finish some loose ends after season 5 for sure.

[@brandiefraser8822]

24 was my shit! Might be time for a rewatch

[@knightsabre7]

Basically, you can put your character through all sorts of hell as long as there's still 'hope', or at the very least bravery and defiance. If all hope is completely lost there's nothing left to root for, and the story is just depressing.

[@yapdog]

So, in essence, it's not about the level of punishment; the audience doesn't like when the MC is driven by the story. He/she must make take actions that effect change within the story.

[@coolbeanzbeef]

Completely agree. I watched Glen and Abraham, the only two characters I really cared about, get brutally and unsettlingly destroyed and I had no desire to watch the show further.

[@1805movie]

To be fair, that's exactly how Glen died in the gn series.

[@biffmercury]

I heard a lot of people say that Glen got killed in the comics. I probably would have accepted that had Rick gotten Negan under control within the next two episodes, but they didn’t do that and by then I was done.

[@coolbeanzbeef]

I'm all for sticking to the original content as much as possible, it's when they go too far with a certain agenda like "shock factor" that just ruins everything else.

[@williamedwards4151]

@@1805movie To be fair, that's when I stopped caring about the GN series too.

[@dylanburton4955]

They should have really just stuck with the comic death, it felt so pointless with them killing Abe to just go in the comic direction anyway

[@bros4654]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems strange to frame this conversation through "punishment", or "suffering". I like to see characters overcome their challenges, struggle to victory. Learn things about themselves through hardship. I don't want to see characters "punished". I take serious umbrage with this trend of deconstructing heroes and protagonists for the sake of dragging them through the dirt. I don't get it. It feels mean-spirited, disheartening, and intentional.

[@Jay-ru3hx]

I agree. Your description makes me think of game of thrones.

[@UDRF]

To a degree but it's also just a word that can be synonymous with challenge. Here it looks like that word is prevalent because they're discussing the WD where it went overboard.

[@xxreyoxx]

It usually is intentional. Plenty of writers out there try to work out the real world aspect that "not everything ends in a happy ending".. triumph is inspiring, but reality is staggering.

[@shaynestewart9297]

@@Jay-ru3hx I agree as well. No matter what comes in the main characters way, they stand firm. Trials, tribulations, but hope perserverance.

[@thehmc]

Yeah, I really like rooting for characters who have no hardships or problems. And where the villain is just nice to them and doesn't hurt them at all. Really compelling stuff.

[@ericcook8254]

Well Glen does die in the comics the same way. Abraham was already dead in the comics and lived much longer in the show. At the same time show Glen was much more likeable, where in the comics he and Maggie were trying to abandon the group constantly. I think alot of people liked Glen in the show and hopped off due to his death.

[@DevinParker]

That was the case for me. Glenn and Maggie were my favorite characters, and we'd already been put through the wringer when we were led to believe that he had been killed by a walker swarm in an earlier season. Watching him be killed in such a brutal way and knowing how awful Maggie was going to feel... It was just too much. It was like Neegan was killing the heart of the group. That plus the depressing direction the show was going were enough to make me lose any investment in the show.

[@LastBastian]

Yep, that's when I bailed. Didn't even bother to watch the actual episode, as I knew what was coming. No thanks, I'd had enough by then, and never went back.

[@yelsahblah3270]

Glen was the heart. He was the only one up till that attack on the compound who hadn't killed anyone. He was the groups moral compass. It was a huge mistake to kill him off.

[@martirichter5111]

@@DevinParker I even stopped watching when I thought he got killed by the walker attack. I'm just now learning that he actually survived, just to be killed in an even worse way. But Glenn was my favourite character and his love with Maggie was the one good thing happening in the group. I thought I just need the "right" mindset and I'll continue watching it. But in the end I never did.

[@traviscue2099]

In the show they murdered countess people before Negan even arrived. Made it feel deserved. And Negan let them off lightly in all honesty. The comics did most things better

[@RandomCarrot2806]

My version is "If the writers try to take away the dignity of my favorite character(s), then I'm out."

[@slydiesel99]

He's on point. The moment Rick Grimes was no longer "a fighter" in that Negan episode is exactly the point I jumped off. I got the same vibes from watching The Last Kingdom. After a while I couldn't binge watch that show and needed days in between watches because of the amount of punishment that is leveled at the protagonist is depressing.

[@mrm9570]

Ygm, Utred deserves wayyy better tbh

[@diegosotomiranda4107]

At least in The last kingdom he had some payoff and relief from time to time, what the walking death did with negan was basically if the last kingdom let aethelwould live and teaming with uthred forgiving every shit he did before, at least in tlk a piece of s*it gets what they deserves Even if it's doesnt happen inmediatly

[@JakeBaldwin1]

I couldn't watch the last kingdom any more because the story never really progressed beyond Utred does something good for someone and then gets screwed over. Stories need progression to work.

[@gulinp1]

Most people gave up after Negan bat episode, but to me killer was Carl's death.

[@BrettJones27]

Last Kingdom suffers from having multiple books covered by each season; so instead of one story starting, Utred being punished, defeated, suffering losses, then recovering and ultimately winning through to that books goal at the end, this full story cycle happens multiple times across a season and it seems like he never really has a proper win. Also, like later seasons of Game of Thrones, a few too many characters have developed 'plot armour' and have lived past their natural end point due to their popularity, etc...

[@Carson_Van_McUber]

I can see his point about Rick although I saw it in a different manner. I saw it as building up this sadistic villain by showing what this villain is capable of when he can reduce one of the strongest characters on the show to obey him. This was a nightmare that Rick nor the audience could ever imagine. It also would make the resolve that much sweeter when Rick would find himself again and rise up once more to be the person we knew him to be.

[@Comicsluvr]

He explains this perfectly. There is a BIG difference between fight and punishment. A fight is something you can either win or at least lose with pride and dignity. Punishment is something you can't avoid for whatever reason. It's like an act of nature. These things happen to all of us so watching them happen to someone else is relatable. But we soldier on, as they say. Watching someone endure endless punishment without a chance to fight back turns people off.

[@melvinbagby4221]

The guy is explaining it exactly right. My only point of contention is that is exactly what they did with the character he references, it just took a longer route to get there - but that's more of a bug with a long form tv series. I agree with him it was difficult to watch during that period, though. If we wanted to see our heroes lose we can look to our own lives for that.

[@HouseFromSmartCity]

It’s amazing to hear this POV expressed like this. It motivates me enough to write my own series a few years ago due to this perpetual feeling of the protagonists’ victories never being satisfying enough considering the pain they endured - noticed this in so many of my favorite movies, books, shows, etc. Taking note of duration of tension vs. breakthrough..and how high the stakes need to be in order to make it worth it helped guide the rhythm. I think where a lot of writers fall short is their thirst for unpredictability - mistaking doom for artistry, but that’s unnecessary if you get creative in ways the protagonist overcomes the solution. For example, protagonist is robbed of all their life savings, so the next day he goes to the robbers’ house with a shotgun and gets revenge. That would be too easy and underwhelming. But if there was a sub-plot that balanced just the right amount of tension to where the protagonist orchestrates psychological warfare that forced the robbers to meet a consequence far worse at their own hand…then it gets interesting. Nobody’s going to buy a video game if you can’t beat “the fjnal boss” so to speak. Plot fatigue has turned me off to many, otherwise brilliant, storylines. This video has a lot of great insights.

[@firelordOzai3]

When the good side suffers a defeat, it can strengthen the character's resolve and endear them to the audience more, but a loss that is too devastating and when the baddies are too powerful, it crushes hope and makes any comeback implausible and this is what happened with TWD. I stopped watching at the point he describes. I stopped watching GOT after Stark died too. You shouldn't be scared to challenge your audience but it should never be punishing. It should never crush hope. Good interview

[@samkedwards2032]

You stopped watching GOT after season 1 because of one main character? Oh man, you would have hated the rest then 🤣

[@bullymaguire7554]

This kind of reads like "I don't like it unless everyone gets a happy ending." Life isn't a fairytale, and art shouldn't be either. The first season of GoT is perfection and subverts expectations in a believable way. Hope isn't lost, only a character is. He was never the main character, GoT isn't Eddard Stark's story. Its the story of the Game of Thrones, the constant struggle for power, and those who get caught in the crossfire.

[@samkedwards2032]

@@bullymaguire7554 To be honest you’ve basically just explained the Northern European approach to Movies/TV Shows. British and Scandinavian shows in particular are much darker and very realistic. We grew up on Grimm fairytales (the real ones) and Viking/Saxon mythology, we don’t care about happy endings 🤣

[@D0MiN0ChAn]

@@samkedwards2032 Bu we also don't want to perpetually watch/read characters suffer, let's be real.

[@samkedwards2032]

@@D0MiN0ChAn oh I find it refreshing I hate the American obsession with happy endings lol. British comedy for example is entirely based around laughing at people who are pieces of crap suffering. It’s hilarious. Even Ricky Gervais talked about the difference in American and British audiences. Stating Brits love to watch suffering, Americans find it depressing and want successful characters because they believe in the American dream

[@seanziethen1032]

He just described Spider-Man 2. This film fills all the checkboxes Joston mentioned when it comes to character punishment.

[@classreductionist]

I stopped watching walking dead in this season for exactly the reasons he is saying. I hated Neegan. I HATED THAT FUCKER SO MUCH... but he just kept WINNING!!!!! I can't watch the bad guys win and the good guys lose for 10+ episodes. It was too frustrating. I quit and have never watched it. I believe I stopped at the 2nd to last episode of Season 7 when it became clear they weren't going to kill Neegan that season. Not even sure if he eventually died! Did he?

[@SwapsworldIn]

Do you know what's funny he's still alive 😂. And became fan favourite character after Daryl. Including me 😂🤣

[@traviscue2099]

The issue is filler not that Rick's crew lose. The show has no direction outside of hitting comic beats.

[@JavanDeCarlo]

They are making a spin off about him and Maggie teaming up actually

[@thenellierose]

I loved to hate Negan back then and when his redemption arc came into play… Man, I loved that too. His origin story was the best episode of whatever season that was in, imo. He’s a favorite character of mine. I just hope they use him well in the upcoming show and that he doesn’t have to lose himself again for the sake of that.

[@jaimeruiz7837]

@@thenellierose might just be me but when a character does something unforgivable, I do just that. I never forgive and don’t give a fuck what kind of redemption sorry they give them. Who they saved or whatever, idgaf. So it’s funny to me that you people can forgive and even end up loving him. Imagine it was someone you loved he brutally murdered. No thanks.

[@claudiabcarvalho]

Yep, you can't cheer for a character if he just never wins. The audience wants to watch them overcome obstacles, not be defeated by every antagonistic force. Measure the highs and lows, the losses and gains - just figure out the right beats.

[@Skelemonyo]

Personally, I have always appreciated stories which demonstrate the beauty of life. Where they may give the character trials and turbulations, pain and suffering. Where there may be big stakes, the story always takes a second to calm down and show the audience that the world they present is worth fighting for. This could be watching the characters become close, seeing them reclaim some form of hope, or flushing out the world to make it interesting. My issue with just focusing on pain, punishment and dread, is I start to lose interest in the mission. Ok, the character wants to survive, so they can continue a miserable existence in an unredeemable world. Ok the character must save the world, yet they have no love or connection to it. I just cannot get invested in a story like that, they must take a second and show why the mission is worth doing.

[@weltallelite]

I agree. I like seeing the hero struggle, but we need that struggle to lead to a reason to be inspired.

[@LordValdomerol]

Even settings labeled as grimdark, like Warhammer 40k, have a lot of stories where characters fight to overcome stakes withing one of the most depressing and bleak universes in fiction. I'm talking way, way worse than the Walking Dead's world. So much unwarranted misery ends up tiring the audience in that show's case.

[@mr.anderson8390]

It's literally victory has defeated your protagonist so much that the only thing left is defeat.

[@Thynqikan]

I don't know what episode it was, the episode where Rick's team get their cars dressed up with metal shields and drive to Negan's compound. Negan and his lieutenants are standing on this balcony and Rick shouts that they need to surrender by the count of 10 while he and his followers all point their guns at Negan's group. Then Rick starts the countdown. He gets to 7 and they start shooting... and hit absolutely nothing. That was the last episode I watched because it was clear to me the writers thought it was the "shock" events that were keeping people watching which is very wrong. Absolutely awful writing.

[@treybrannon4964]

Same. That was the exact moment I tapped out and, with the exception of Rick's last episode, never tuned in again.

[@krystalwillis2502]

That was it for me too!

[@fatkart7641]

You can punish a character beyond what he can take, as long as there is a breaking point. And from there, that character is reborn. Batman, the Punisher, Abraham from TWD, Beatrix Kiddo, Gandalf, Robocop, Ash from The Evil Dead, Mad Max... Whether its something, someone or their sanity, every change starts from punishment.

[@RaiceGeriko]

He's talking about when Negan killed Abraham and then killed Glenn. And then in the next episode or so Negan broke Rick's will by forcing him to cut off Carl's hand. From that moment on in Season (whatever?) Rick was basically a castrated lapdog. We weren't watching a hero fight evil anymore. We were watching a broken man perform felatio on another (figuratively speaking.) I tuned out at that point. Well... actually... I started to dislike the show when they reached Alexandria. They started focusing on characters that don't matter, just to kill them off--because they don't matter--and they stopped focusing so much on the characters we care about--the ones we've been watching since the beginning. And it was also when apparently the writers completely forgot who Rick was entirely, because nothing he did made any sense. But then when they killed Glen (which I knew was coming) the way they did it was just so heart-breaking, I really stopped caring. And it seems so did Rick. There was never any true absolution to that. Finally, I gave up on the show after they killed Carl. You've essentially destroyed Rick's entire reason for living by this point. And Andrew Lincoln knew it as well--why he asked to be written out of the show. TWD is nothing without Rick Grimes. He is the show. If you ruin the character, you don't have a show. He is the Protagonist.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

Andrew Lincoln believed it was a mistake to kill Carl but that's not why he left. He was missing his kids growing up in England and wanted to be there for them. He was also going to be playing Rick in a trilogy of Walking Dead movies, though Covid may have scrapped those plans.

[@Teekayhuey_TK]

Honestly the show made me give up when Rick forgave negan.

[@dekudude8888]

@@Teekayhuey_TK As much as I love Negan, he definitely should've been killed or escaped and not returned for a long while in that final battle. I like what he does to the Whisperers, but honestly, I just don't like how soft they made both Rick and Negan

[@Teekayhuey_TK]

@@dekudude8888 FACTS

[@MannyNCF]

Omg!!! I never thought about it, I could never explain why, but I stopped watching Walking Dead EXACTLY after that episode!! When they were on their knees in front of Negan. And I’m telling you I don’t even know if I can explain how great and how much I loved the show up until then. That season 7 opener was the last episode I watched.

[@dakforest5344]

What I heard: The protagonist must have hope, or a reason to hope, to fight. Punish away, so long as you're crystalizing that seed of hope into a diamond, and not disintegrating it. This is different from the Bleak Moment when the character temporarily loses hope, but then gets back on the horse. I like to think of it as giving the character cookies, little things to remind them why their fighting, what they're fighting for, and so that no matter how bad it gets, there's still a little good, whatever that looks like for the narrative.

[@GinHindew110]

In the ecosystem of action/fantasy web novels, one reader described it as "loss of agency" Having a character be unable to act only works in small viewership times We either see a timeskip, or switch to other characters, but having a character that has no way of affecting the story becomes pointless, because we are seeing the story from a point that doesnt move Another reader got into a rant about how he hates magical binding contracts, for the same reason, so its not even a matter of defeat or punishment, but of the character being on rails

[@aitothechamp7263]

The walking dead is pretty dark but I love it. At times it was a little too slow and I think they kind of ran out of situations/ideas. But every series has to end somewhere. Had a good run

[@finallyanime]

Put it perfectly in a way I just couldn’t put my finger on. Great job man & interviewer of course

[@multivitaminsaft1997]

And that is exactly where I stopped watching. It felt more like the dreamworld of a villain, than a realistic plot. The main characters where just bystanders at this point and they didn´t do anything interesting anymore. It felt like this new villain we knew nothing about was suddenly the new main character, because he was the only one who actually made decisions. Even his own people did nothing interesting. They just stood there and watched him kill people. That was stupid! Either they are bad guys like him and would want to overthrow him to take his place or they are not bad guys and want to defeat him because he makes them do bad things. But they just watched and there was no conspiration against him. That´s a dystopian view of human nature to a degree where it´s just implausible.

[@phabiorules]

I disagree that his own people would want to overthrow him. Things were difficult during the apocalypse and Negan provided them leadership and a sense of stability. Perhaps some of his gang trusted other survivor groups in the past and paid for it. A lot of people will look the otherway if their leader provides stability to them.

[@robertprice7791]

Walking Dead Fan as well, and this is spot on. Not only was Rick savaged all through season 8, but an anchor to his family was also eliminated as well. After a certain point, we started to wonder what his motivation to keep going even was. Negan could have been easily, easily eliminated in season 8 multiple times, but unrealistically was not. The entire Negan plotline carried on way, way too long.

[@bobpowers9637]

This was very helpful. Audience should be entertained and how he explained it sounded like audience fatigue. Thanks!

[@kirakira1212]

So true, I stopped watching bec it made me feel exhausted mentally and emotionally. And that was on season 5! I wonder how worse it must have gotten with the more later seasons

[@JDotWill]

Negan’s introduction was brutal, as it should’ve been to establish the threat level he posed. Which makes it that much more gratifying when Rick slits his throat & the group we’ve followed since season 1 takes over.

[@jahrikwakanda7001]

I don't want to start a debate, but I think that's why a lot of people didn't like how Ellie's story in TLOU2 ended. She kept loosing things that mattered to her until i felt like there was nothing left for her to care about. While Abby still has things to look forward to even tho she also lost a lot.

[@filmgirlLisa]

I think maybe there's a difference between a lead in a show and a _carrier_ in a show. A carrier of a show is: the main climbs up a tree, the audience is invested only in the how that particular character gets down from the tree despite the rocks. Everything else is just considered to further or erode the character's journey, whereas a _lead_ is just the most important element to a show. With a lead the audience cares how he gets out the tree, but part of what they also really care about is how the other guys in the tree get out. Part of the significant story is other characters and what their journeys are. TWD, IMO, mixed these things up and thought that Lincoln, while the most important, vital part of the show, was definitely the lead, he was not the carrier. People cared about the journeys of a few others too. I think if TWD had've killed off some red shirts in the same way and Rick had the same reaction, people would've stayed. Instead, they killed off some other leads and kept and explored many of the red shirts.

[@sorateal12]

This is sooo true!! I felt this way about Outlander as well - it soon became less about a time-travel adventure/ romance and more about sadistically making every single character suffer in such horrific ways with no end!! I stopped watching because it seemed like the writers considered it a rite of passage for every character to get assaulted in some way, like no!! No one wants to watch that!! I picked it up again years later for closure, thinking it couldn't get worse but I couldn't have been more wrong...

[@jessicazimmer8910]

I stopped watching when they get robbed and Claire gets assaulted at the top of season four. Like THE MOMENT they arrived in America. Enough already. There's plenty of plot without constant rape. I stopped reading after the first two books as well. If I wanted to read about the birth of America for many, many books, I'd read non-fiction. I miss when they were set in Scotland.

[@sirsplintfastthepungent1373]

for minute there, it seemed like characters were the embodiment of colliding philosophical institutions, being forced to put rubber to road. Alexandria had potential, but it devolved to a superficial soap opera of revenge and alliances, so I checked out. Perhaps it's not the severity of punishment that matters, but the subtext it carries.

[@doctorhirst9302]

I felt this with Joker. The movie was just so relentlessly miserable, with one bad thing happening to the character after another, that I found it hard to sit through and after a while I just needed a break. Meanwhile there are other movies with upsetting or difficult subject matters that I've liked. Sure, they made me feel sad, but not in such a mean-spirited and manipulative way.

[@yaruyaru]

Sounds more like a personal taste matter than plain bad writing. Although I wouldn't defend Joker's script (as it gets so over-expositive & direct instead of using subtext), I wouldn't recall the movie being manipulative or "mean-spirited" as some people like to say. I find it hard for tv series, movies, books, anything to be actually mean-spirited and not just being called such, even having some exceptions like Seth Rogen's awful christmas show Santa Inc.

[@steviegilliam5685]

I mean the mean spiritedness of everyone around Arthur was point in showing the moral degradation of society and what could happen if someone is pushed to far, for a film that was nihilistic as it was it filled me with hope to be kinder to others and it being a big middle finger to places like Hollywood because that can't handle a mirror being placed in front of them

[@emelgizzybruh2058]

At least the joker has a happy ending

[@albertosaurschannel6946]

You should read Berserk (Manga) by Kentaro Mirua. The Main Character Guts is a struggler and the story is not kind to him. He was being raped by his adoptive father. And let’s say the Eclipse in The Golden Age Arc was a real gruesome moment.

[@EmperorSigismund]

@@emelgizzybruh2058 Well, the Joker is happy at least.

[@outlawdawnllc]

To the same point my biggest issue with TWD was that the show did a fake out death for the character they ended up actually killing at the end of that season.

[@huismands]

This is what happened in Lost as well, but instead of "punishment" its was "mysteries". You can't keep stacking question upon question upon question and expect the audience to patiently keep watching. To much of anything, be it punishment, mystery, drama, or whatever, will be poisonous to a show.

[@avivastudios2311]

Yes. There's gotta be a balance.

[@shorten8588]

That's why my favourite novel is Reverend Insanity, I don't have to deal with bull$$ other MCs make readers go through

[@ZoomBoxEntertainment]

Great explanation. I learned a lot. Thank you.

[@waynem2895]

What a wonderful insight. In the past, I have felt the emotion the speaker refers to, been put off of something but now I know why. I thank the speaker and all involved with the production. This is KZbin at its most powerful.

[@DanteTheRedPossum]

I once went to a Robert McKee conference in my city a few years ago, and one of the things he constantly mentioned was that you need to have up and downs. Having a character being always happy is not a story, the same goes if they are always losing. Stories need change to work.

[@nerd_in_norway]

So well said, excellent points! The issue he brings up about the endless punishment of Rick in The Walking Dead is also a reason I am struggling to care about Handmaid's Tale: an amazing show turned into obsessive torture marathon of June. What the hell is going on inside the heads of some of these showrunners? It seems almost perverted.

[@FirstShirtedMan]

That's not remotely why people stopped watching during Season 7. The Season 6/7 transition was so poorly mishandled in the first place, which caused a LOT of tension between fans and the writers. And then Season 7 was just trope after trope after trope. After a season opening which showed prior plot armor had been removed, the rest of the season was thick with it. Suddenly the red-shirts all have stormtrooper aim. We get ridiculous tropey car chases and shoot-outs which lead nowhere. The whole combo of Season 7 and 8 did such a disservice to the source material, to the actors who were still performing at such a top level despite the writing, and this was all so clear because when Angela Kang replaced Scott Gimple as showrunner, the writing, show and ratings all picked up significantly

[@Thynqikan]

Agreed! I don't know what episode it was, the episode where Rick's team get their cars dressed up with metal shields and drive to Negan's compound. Negan and his lieutenants are standing on this balcony and Rick shouts that they need to surrender by the count of 10 while he and his followers all point their guns at Negan's group. Then Rick starts the countdown. He gets to 7 and they start shooting... and hit absolutely nothing. That was the last episode I watched. Absolutely awful writing.

[@soridosuneku]

..Wait, it improved? Or just became better than Gimple's run with it? You got me slightly curious to see the later seasons

[@FirstShirtedMan]

@@Thynqikan Thank you! And that was a great moment in the source material too. This huge crescendo of the communities coming together and taking a stand. Except there's no 0-hit shootout, the drama comes from the characters. Was just lazy fall-back on action for no reason

[@ronthorn3]

Ugh the shows still incredibly bad and I’ve season every single episode to date, yes we had a pandemic and I caved.

[@1kbmahan]

He lose two of his friends and his son is dead in the next season that’s the draw back from the whole show Ricks main reason was to protect his son and friends and since he has no purpose as his friends and his only son died he has no reason to be the main character and ruins the point of all the past seasons for Rick since that was literally what we woke up to. To find his family Son and Wife. Since they’re all dead he’s a man running out of time a empty character.

[@fanjestic4294]

I do remember thinking "So when is this thing going to flip" and it never did. But the thing that really cracked the show for me is when they introduced the kingdom and there was this sense of "Ah ok we're going to go full on weird now."

[@scifirealism5943]

Such a great channel.

[@blacklavoux]

I think ‘Friends’ is a perfect sample of good writing and expanding stories for each character. It’s a lighter writing, comedy, of course, but it’s a legend. And it’s satisfying.

[@thinkforward8752]

This guy *nails it* 🎯👌 I vividly recall sitting through the brutality of that episode thinking, "I don't know whether I can continue watching this show." It was TOO too much 🤢🤮 There was ZERO fun in watching that👎 REVENGE would've been a superb way to turn my/our feelings around.

[@routeterror1236]

Great advice! Bring your protagonist down, kick them while they are down, but don’t beat the fight completely out of them to where they just give up and no longer try and pursue their goal.

[@gjtrue]

Eren Jaeger took this guy's advice to heart. 🤣

[@LiteraryLad_824]

He didn’t forget that goal of making a better life for his people. The Bridge represents that. The Walking Dead did get stale but not because the “punishment” was too great. TWD is inherently a show with a dark and hopeless premise. I personally like there to be those periods in a story where the antagonists seem to have complete and utter control. Without them the movie/show or whatever would seem less realistic.

[@melindawolfUS]

Agree! I stopped watching walking dead a couple episodes later when they didn't start to plan for freedom/justice. There's dark shows, but then there are just depressing shows. I don't need more depression in my life.

[@roj4169]

That's why I stopped watching the Handmaid's Tale too. I don't care anymore if the new seasons have anything good in them, it's just so much suffering. IMHO it would've been way more interesting to just end it maybe in the second season, and that's it.

[@MrYoungfly1]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. My love for the snow died with Glenn.

[@StuCheeks]

I had a similar feeling with the fifth Harry Potter movie (maybe an odd example, I know). The villain teacher kept punishing the kids over and over and it just got to be too much to such an extent that the payoff felt like it came too late and wasn't enough. She just got to be smug for a majority of the movie. There's just no reason to keep establishing that the main characters are to be punished over and over and over and over and just put up with it without doing anything until eventually they finally do. The effect can still be there, just don't beat it into the audience's mind for too long. Great movie otherwise, though, and Walking Dead is the perfect example of a show that mishandles story telling. Good video.

[@Hydorior]

...until you reread Harry Potter as an adult with knowledge in Greek mythology and realize what it was that the Centaur herd did to Professor Umbridge 😳

[@samhur4294]

Great breakdown and interesting viewpoint that’s what lost people. From my perspective the comic prepared me for season 7 but I agree it was tough to stomach.

[@Chrisratata]

It sounds like he's saying that survival can't be the only goal of the protagonist and I don't think that's necessarily the case. I understand that you don't want the fight beaten out of them entirely - that you wamt there to be some sense that they still have a will to survive and have a chance at rising above it - but there are plenty of movies to where the entire focus is that the protagonist is trying to survive nearly insurmountable odds that keep getting harder.

[@Isoquant]

IIRC, the season ended on a cliffhanger with the audience not knowing which character had been killed. I realized as soon as the episode ended that I no longer cared which character had died, nor cared how the situation would be resolved. The show was effectively over for me at that point. I do remember loving that first season though. As a non-writing consumer of stories in film, television, print, etc, I do not enjoy seeing my rooting interest punished. If writers are going to punish the characters I care about, there had better be an *amazing* payoff. Make it worth my while.

[@TheWalkingDavid]

When the walking dead killed Glenn and Abraham, they reminded people that our main characters weren’t safe. That the threat of this world was no longer about the dead, but rather the living. Many characters we cared about to a decent extent had horrific deaths leading up to season 7, but they all helped a character learn something about life, about themselves, and ultimately grow stronger so they could continue to survive. When characters that are beloved die, it’s tragic for the audience, but the only solace they get is if our other beloved characters, in someway, avenge those people’s deaths. They have to be able to comeback stronger. Otherwise you are watching a character at the end of their character arc. No where to go…but down. You painted your characters into a corner with their own blood. Later seasons in some ways have tried to rebuild characters who were broken by those events… but sometimes it’s too little too late. Sometimes the damage is done, and there is no hope of saving it. That’s coming from someone who thinks that Negan may be one of the few bright spots left in the show now. It’s sad to say, but he is the only one from those events who was punished to a reasonable extent from those events, and given a chance to rebuild and redeem himself.

[@mobbs6426]

So much of this is true in life. Take your wins where you can get them, they might not come often, but if you learn to appreciate them, you can learn to foster more of them down the line

[@aitothechamp7263]

I stopped watching after Rick left and then came back years later to watch the whisperers season and it was actually really good I was like wtf

[@TheTrueNarthumpulous]

People live vicariously through the main character. If the writers are going to choose to craft a scene where the main character and all the other characters are ritualistically and sadistically tortured, then the audience is gonna lose trust in the writers. I remember watching the Negan scene and it felt like a betrayal of the audience. Like dude said. We wanna see them prevail over adversity. Not have their spirit completely broken.

[@supahmariostyle]

I fell off the series when Rick became Shane in Alexandria. After said he was taking over I stopped liking him and was tired of the rinse and repeat. Seeing him be punished by Negan is what drew me back in.

[@stebogameboy]

I totally agree with what was said in the video but I felt it even earlier around Season 5. Although it wasn’t nearly as heavy I could see where it was headed.

[@ThatGuyNorm]

I never finished Game of Thrones for that very reason. I got sick of watching all the best characters die for absolutely no reason other than to make the bad guys badder. It became so dumb

[@traviscue2099]

The character deaths in GoT actually have purpose. It drives the narrative/builds up other characters/changes the story.

[@Silburific]

@@traviscue2099 Well, they had purpose at the start. Back when actions had consequences, death served as the ultimate consequence. You piss off the wrong people, you die. You think you're too tough to get sick, you die. You act like an idiot, you die. Then season 5 happened, and it all went downhill from there. What few deaths were allowed to happen only existed for shock value. Arya gets disembowled and takes a merry swim through an open sewer? She'll be fine. The prince of Dorne surrounded by his guards? SUPER DEATH!!

[@leofreaking]

He definitely makes some good points. For me though, after a very intriguing and exciting start into the show, they just started reapeating themselves really quickly. And I had to eventually quit after I got so frustrated not only from the repetition but mainly from stupid decisions, horrible scripts and inconsistencies that I just couldn't get over anymore. It's a shame, it could have been an amazing show

[@Multiversal_Productions]

respectfully disagree, 7.01 was a tough one sure, but it works, Andrew Lincoln made it work, it achieved everything it needed to. the walking dead universe is not a happy one and no one should be safe as long as the "punishment" isn't to a point where it ruins the characters story glenn and Abe's deaths were ok because it effected everyone and so it pushed the need for revenge and moving forward the point where the writers completely lost it... was Carl Rick was the main character, his story was THE story. Killing Carl was the biggest damage to a point where how was Rick supposed to go on? losing a child is the worst pain in the world and to have it happen to a main character, that main character doesn't have an arc of moving on... it's a process of "how can I deal with being completely broken" season 7's pacing was slow so it felt like nothing was going to happen but season 8 ep 9 was the nail in the coffin

[@immaculateorganicsoaps3533]

What is missed is the punishments didn't have a clear lesson. The growth of the characters is key.

[@melodysafo5437]

Agreed! Every story needs a lesson!

[@failuretocommunicate4976]

Last episode I saw was when they were attacking neegan’s compound. And neegan walked out in open view of about 8 characters with full auto rifles, grenades, pistols an was about 40 feet away. And all of them shoot the windows above him so the whole threat was 1 billion percent hollow. It along with the stupid bullet hitting the baseball bat and all the dumb choices made in that season was it for me, I was well done.

[@yelsahblah3270]

That is the exact same episode we ducked out on too.

[@asiamatron]

Lol.

[@Michael-eq8th]

Tension and suspense are useful devices to keep an audience engaged, but they aren’t the story themselves. Rather than use them as much as possible without harming the story, I’d rather use them as little as possible. That both maximizes their effect, and allows the story to breathe. Shows often get written into holes for the sake of ever increasing stakes. There’s a great premise in season 1 of a show then the writers have blown it up in the name of shock by the end of season 2. The show moves on rutterless for a few more seasons. Then it ends and no one is satisfied because themes are left unexplored, characters undeveloped, and plots incomplete.

[@chrishellize]

I stopped watching in season 7 when I realised I wasn't looking forward to each episode, but dreading it. Watching it went from being fun to something to endure.

[@BrodieGH]

They went too long without giving the protag a win... The only time they ever got a true win was right at the end of season 8. So we spent 2 whole seasons with the main character looking like a jabroni. 2 WHOLE SEASONS with Rick Grimes getting beaten and battered, losing in every degree.

[@mowgli6345]

I stopped watching TWD when Rosita blew a guy up with an RPG indoors and he vaporized into a fireball and the shelf next to him didn't even move.