Final Fantasy VII Remake - PATCHWORK (spoilers) - ft. Lythero & TaiCheesy

[@Lythero]

Hell yeah I love Binal Bantasy 7!!

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

It's cool as fuck I can confirm

[@HybridTwisterVR0979]

Hey Lythero, Why do you hate The World Ends With You? The DS Version is the GOAT. I clearly understand why you dont like NEO, but yknow

[@Lythero]

@@HybridTwisterVR0979 The World End With Your Assumption

[@tjthedj9431]

@@Lythero7

[@FastTheSonic]

34:19 There's a cutscene where Reno sees Tifa running up the stairs and starts pointing the chopper's gun at her, and Rude turns the chopper away and Reno is like "bruh what the fuck was that" and Rude says "uhhhhh my hand slipped", so story wise at least he doesn't attack Tifa

[@arkdetective]

That scene of rude & reno talking about who they like in og ff7 is adorable.

[@kevindaydreamer]

It's funny, in the original, Seperoith is only in the shinra tower because Cloud got close to a piece of Jenova.

[@vensaernetsubara6000]

Y'all should have had max on to be the defense, with how he describes the game it seems genius

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Maybe some day I can try and get in touch with him, I would really like to discuss it with someone with a different view of it at length

[@midboss22]

Thank you beacuase I could not finish this video because the complaining about stuff that is very self explained but max breaks down why stuff happens he is entertaining plus his hype is contagious

[@MochaMicah]

Fuck. The one Jenova note whenever Nomura's name is mentioned almost made me choke on some food. XD

[@MochaMicah]

Chadley is cyborg created by Hojo. Likely intentionally based on a younger Weiss which is... Dirge of Cerberus stuff. I would argue he would likely fit in on the upper plate with folks of class. Also, I don't think the idea was for them to not care that Shrina was gonna drop the plate but rather if the plot ghosts weren't there. They would have succeeded in stopping the plate from falling. It's a butterfly effect of things happening sooner than they should cuz of Cloud getting flashbacks of future events and Sephiroth getting involved sooner than he should be. This tying into the fact that Remake is a sequel in the compilation of FF7 and not a one to one remake.

[@AstralSage7529]

If I remember correctly the reason at least at the end for cloud to be flipping and cutting trains in half was because while in the plot ghost dimension they are more their advent children selves or at least their skills/strength.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Oh, interesting

[@RagnaRok852]

Every Nomura mention being the bell is so good

[@mistybloo52]

That is so funny Max just forced Lyth to look at the Scoop on Remake! 😂

[@neo7538]

Oh yeah. I forgot. Max is FCKIN TALL 😂

[@Double_246]

Not even a full minute in, and your comedic timing is impeccable, keep up the great work!!!

[@Omni]

this was genuinely such a good video, i don't really care for FF7R but just seeing y'all have a discussion about your opinions was a fun watch. i'd love to see more stuff like this honestly

[@HayabusaZero]

Watching the video still and I know I’m going against the grain because I ended up loving Remake (WHICH I ACKNOWLEDGE IS NOT PERFECT), and I finished the original FF7 like 7 years ago but: You have Chapter Select by the time you unlock Hard Mode so you can go to different chapters to level your Magic up if you want. I agree that some bits are unbearably slow, especially on my third play through… Obviously this part is extremely contentious and you can still dislike it but…The Whispers are the planet itself trying to keep major story events in line with the original FF7 story to avoid an uncertain future, like keeping Avalanche from stopping the plate drop, or forcing Cloud to go on the Reactor 5 mission because this Barrett had decided not to hire him again. The Sephiroth you fight in the finale is a form selected by the Whispers - the Sephiroth after is the real Sephiroth. I started the game despising the Whispers, and I think that’s the point. Again, obvs feel how you will about them. Zack’s timeline of surviving is separate from the timeline we play in Remake. Ultimately I don’t think a remake of a game as huge as FF7 could happen without controversial decisions. I love the original and I actually am glad that Remake isn’t following it 1:1. It’s coincidental that you mention Evangelion because the equally controversial Rebuild films did something similar as FF7 Remake. Also, Max mentions it in plenty of videos too but Nomura is responsible for a lot more than just character design in the original FF7.

[@jackbatchelor975]

Honestly the concept of fighting the whispers and the entire finale of the game really hit me emotionally. The characters defeating fate in the crumbling remains of Midgar and then fighting sepiroth is some of the most hype I’ve ever experienced and being a Zack fan I was bawling like a child. Now is it stupid? Fuck yes it is but I love it. I do however really like your jenova battle concept being at the end instead. Great video

[@LegendaryBossHunter]

As funny as the Nomura blaming is, especially with the bells that play when he's mentioned. And well I'm sure he is to blame for some stuff. But according to reports, Nomura actually was the one asking to tone down a lot of the crazy things people wanted to do with the story in the OG and Remake scripts. So there's a version of the FF7 Remake script that's has even more insane and weird choices than this one and we didn't get it cause even Nomura was like, "Okay even this is too much for me."

[@oshkeet]

This is kinda my beef. A lot of the things in the game bug me, but its weird how people feel so nervous about saying "the creators ____" as a whole instead of taking potshots at Nomura. Even if a lot of weird things was his idea, how do people not get this is collaborative? I think people just feel bad thinking Square writing as a whole might have fallen off.

[@crazygamer4260]

Apparently in og ff7 they wanted to kill everyone but cloud and nomura had to go "that would cheapen the impact of the one death we have."

[@PovertyG0d]

These patchwork videos are so good! Would love more of these to enjoy you 3 praising/shitting on these games you all have a passion about.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

I will try and rally the friends again soon

[@TheChimpPit]

I found the video to be really enjoyable! It was pretty well paced, they boys cracking jokes along with your comic strips of stuff that's being said to help keep retention was really well done and very fun. And I see a lot of your points and criticisms that you've had with Remake, especially when its put in a real slick video format! Its a great vid and I look forward to the next one! I'm glad Patchwork is back! 😄

[@SleepySkullhead]

Barret dying was important because it showed that there are characters who are not allowed to die in this story.

[@feels6046]

31:37 Nomura did the same thing with Sora in KH2, kid randomly is able to cut skyscrapers in half and baseball swing them through space

[@Xiu83]

"Today, we're going to be talking about Final Fanty 7" "oh no..."

[@spud7234]

I somehow forget this is one of my fav series on KZbin and spit take and re-binge it all every time a new one comes out lol

[@Romalac]

The little drawn segments fucking killed me. XD

[@clintwaki6936]

I agree with you on most of the points regarding the plot, but I’d like to offer a more meta perspective on Sephiroth in this game. I imagine the developers wanted to emphasize and push him so much more because there’s never a guarantee of success. These games take 5 years to make, and all the OG heads at Squeenix are only getting older. In case this whole series blew up in their face like FF15, at the very least they wanted to deliver on that advent children, wet dream Sephiroth final boss that everone’s wanted since the OG FF7 came out. Do all these changes hurt the plot and narrative of FF7? Absolutely, but Remake part 1 had to be a success no matter what for future parts to come out; so I kinda get why they jammed Jenova and Sephiroth fights in where they don’t belong.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Yeah that's a valid enough point

[@YakuzaWolf]

PATCHWORK CONTENT IN 2024!? Truly a good year.

[@UGotMail-0813]

You had me at Lythero and Final Fantasy 7

[@Soundwave001]

Okay. only like 12 minutes in, the editing you have on this is amazing.

[@TylerRuins]

Just going to ramble off a bunch of my thoughts while listening. 3:52 While Nomura is credited as Character Design & Battle Visual Director for the original FF7, he does also have credit for the Original Story alongside Hironobu Sakaguchi. Now I've heard varying reports as to how much influence he had on the initial narrative, but it's worth noting that he always had that story credit. 9:00 The combat balance is honestly incredible to me. The turn based and action elements work way better than I would've expected them to and, with Intergrade and now Rebirth, it just continues to build more systems and customization. I wonder if someone trying to jump in on the second game will be overwhelmed though! 9:58 (Ah damn, another thing already). Yeah the new additions like Kyrie and Leslie really stand out in their designs in a bad way. For one, they definitely have more of that "important character" look than the other NPCs, but that's more of a knock against how plain the background characters look. But the design of those two really feels out of place compared to the OG cast, at least to me. Funnily enough, Chadley is the only one I don't really mind, because we find out _why_ he's such a little weirdo. 16:45 I don't have much to say about the Time Ghosts one way or another honestly. I understand what they were going for in their utilization, though I also get why people wouldn't like them. Frankly, I find their inclusion just adds another point of discussion to Remake, but they don't stop me from thoroughly enjoying the game regardless. 20:25 To be fair, destiny or not, the Remake did make it abundantly clear that the Time Ghosts are very bad at actually accomplishing what they're setting out to do lol 22:30 Ah, now this, THIS is absolutely on the mark. While sections like the Train Graveyard certainly have cool moments, and are trying to further develop the characters, they really come across as being shoehorned in and break the pacing. Going from "They're going to kill everyone we know and love! We've gotta stop 'em!" only to be interrupted by ghost adventures and then go immediately back to that dire situation ain't great. 27:40 I'd say FF7 has a pretty good plot; though the characters are what really make it because, in my opinion, Sephiroth and his world ending stuff is rather standard fare. Cloud's whole crisis? Now that's interesting! If we're talking about bones of a potentially good plot, I'd say FF8 is the best contender there. A bunch of interesting ideas all hilariously fumbled. 28:30 Also fair. I understand why they show Seph so much, but I agree that utilizing the _Jaws_ method of the original would've been better. 31:30 This is a very minor thing but the conversation here made me think of it: all of those prompts where you have to hold the button take *way too long*. It's so weird that the game has you hold the button for an action for what feels like ages, only to then have the character causally say, pull a level, like nothing. Just a weird design decision. 32:30 Yep. Everyone wants materia loadouts. I'm not being sarcastic; give me a loadout option. 33:45 To be fair, everyone being weirdly chill with the Turks has been a thing since the original. Not saying that it can't be improved, but it was a strange juxtaposition in the first game, too. 37:55 Also fair. Several actions just take a bit too long. 39:15 An interesting idea. With Seph being the final boss of Remake, I'm very curious if he's going to be the final baddie of the second and third games as well. If he is, then yes, Jenova would've been a sick final boss for Part 1. 40:25 Guess I'm bein' a Nomura defender today but, to be fair (Zack Fair, hmmmmm?), I don't think he was involved in any of the script for Crisis Core: Gackt Attack for any of the bad or good bits. 45:00 Uh, yeah, not entirely sure where they're going with the plot. We're clearly getting a lot of the same story beats as the original in Rebirth, but then there's the Zack bits, so who knows where it's going? Anyway, neat discussion! Still a big fan of the Remake, but I see where ya'll are coming from. And, since I know we're all gonna play Rebirth, here's hoping that it will be a fun ride. Also, love the drawings! Really cool to see the crew in your style.

[@AutumnApproaches]

My favorite jokey headcanonon for Chadley before that game reveals what his deal is was that he was secretly Accord from the Draken-Nier Universe's son Just the idea that "oops, guess FF7R is canon to Draken-Nier now. Maybe Even Kingdom Hearts who knows!" FFXIV basically is so why not

[@OpThomastic118]

I think it's a damn shame to hear from many different people the last few years that originally grew up with the game that the Remake projects so far have been a disappointment. I wish there was something more faithful to the originals in a sense to help satisfy those who wanted something more direct, particularly in the main story elements. Especially since I am personally loving the Remake games so far, only just playing and loving the OG game around 2018-2019 after hearing and seeing so much love from fans of the game and the wider compilation throughout my time growing up on the internet and just seeing all the inspiration and influence it left on people in what they made online. Hell, if Lythero ever made any content on FF7 back in the day, it's quite likely I ended up seeing it. Wouldn't be the first thing I realize that I saw from him years before I consistently followed his online presence. Like, I even knew about THAT scene when I was like 7 or 8, circa 2007/8, from how much it was discussed and shown. And even then, it never affected how I came around to loving FF7 and the emotions that scene and game brought to me years and years later nonetheless. It just always kinda stuck with me because of how much people went on about it, and why it mattered. People sharing that love of FF7 and keeping all the discussion alive in the first place is how I, and likely many others came around to love it in a way or another to be able to relish the new stuff we are getting in the form of these Remake projects, and I just wish there was something for **all** those who loved FF7 before to enjoy alongside the new blood.

[@skymaniacs4502]

Super fun watch! A lot of the issues mentioned were very valid, and especially the Nomura Ghosts (TM) I have very mixed feelings on. I super love the idea of having the future game's story deviate further and further from the original, and giving a new experience by using the pre-establish lore as a base to subvert expectations. However, I think the way the Nomura Ghosts (TM) were handled in Remake left a lot to be desired, especially since whenever they do show up and stop things from happening its just super annoying and inconvenient and often feels like a waste of time, and a pet peeve I have too is that after they go away NONE of the characters speak about them at all, felt weird only having the conversations about them right at the end of the game. Anyways yeah I loved this video it was super fun to watch and was interesting to hear other people's perspectives on the game! Especially for someone like me who did really love both the original and Remake.

[@Robomori]

I haven't played a single Final Fantasy game but this video goes hard, keep it up

[@ShonenSketcher]

There’s a whole lot of Nomura blaming from Lee but last I checked most of that ain’t his doing dawg poor guy catching all these strays 😂 Also I’d go on to talk about how Advent Children doesn’t mischaracterise and do irreparable damage to cloud’s character (because let’s be real it’s mostly the FFVII boomer fans not knowing his character and story that did that in the first place) but that’d be a whole ass essay I’m not hired to write 🫠

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

I'm pretty sure we're all aware there's a lot more at play than just nomura by himself but I mean as director there is a good amount of responsibility to claim. And I don't doubt the writing staff did try to keep it nomura flavored. But again, more at play. Also it's just fun to blame him lololol

[@Lythero]

I would like the director to pull back the weirdness in the writing as that's under his jurisdiction.

[@ShonenSketcher]

@@Lythero under Kitase’s and Nojima’s jurisdiction, you mean, but maybe they will! Though the weirdness is FFVII’s charm, so hopefully they won’t ☺️

[@DotorInsanity]

15:55 i believe they stopped them from arriving early 17:49 Cloud was fired by Barrett so he wasn't going on the mission 18:18 uhh Cloud almost killed reno he wasn't going to stop That is why the whispers are there 18:50 that was werid that Wegde kept avoiding/ignored by them The theory out is that The Whispers are actually minons of Jehnova that why the furture they protecting is humanity's death

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Them arriving early feels like a weak excuse. I have no doubt in my mind that if Cloud approached them to help Barret would act tough but agree. I'm pretty certain Cloud was going to stop the moment Aerith said anything. But even taking all those points into account they're just flimsy writing and communicated poorly. It doesn't feel natural. Keeping in mind that's just my opinion.

[@DotorInsanity]

@@TopSpinTheFuzzy okay

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

@@DotorInsanity not saying you're wrong or your opinion is invalid, mind you, I just personally feel like the reasons for them to interfere are the weaker option in a narrative /writing point of view.

[@takeshihanataro3871]

Y'all cooked REAL HARD on this one. Absolutely smashing tell you whaht'.

[@SeanOVoices]

Compared to previous Patchwork episodes I incredibly enjoyed the conversational structure of the three of you and how you could see and hear natural progression of topics on critiquing the game rather than going down a checklist of things and hitting us with the game reviewer "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING" Moment

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Perhaps I'll try to do this format more often!

[@LytheroStreams]

@@TopSpinTheFuzzy how dare you promise more of this format that includes friends that i'd be very willing to do

[@Cirrimus]

Highlight of the entire video was how Lythero says 'game'. For real though, despite all this game shortcomings remake still ended up being an amazing experience. The video says it best: this was an easy 9 game that really should have been a 12 or 13. So I can definitely understand the disappointment from core fans. But to Lythero's game length comments I really appreciate final fantasy 7 being broken into much more digestible pieces. 50 hour plus games are just really hard to commit to these days, and while I'll inevitably play and enjoy rebirth it's going to be a big ask. I appreciate the fact that this doesn't replace final fantasy 7. It exists alongside of it. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[@nobodywashere3123]

Im glad to be in a safe space where i can shit on nomura without being called elitist ❤

[@TheArgoNinja]

The Whispers and Sephiroth really were the biggest issues for me. At first I initially thought they were the spirits of Ancient Cetra (heh) since they seem to bug Aerith the most. Maybe as a warning of what's to come for the party. But no, they're just Retcon Ghosts... "No no Wedge, YOU don't get to live; BIGGS DOES!" And then the inclusion of Sephiroth really weighed down his impact as a villain. I kinda get it's hard to hide such an iconic character in gaming but still. The most we should've seen of him was the feather in the first chapter and then maybe again towards the end. But instead, he shows up everywhere. It frustrated me so much that when he showed up as the final boss it made me yell "THIS IS NOT EARNED!!!" To put it into perspective, I was more hyped to see Sephiroth in SMASH BROS than his own game. Also too much padding. : P

[@Aigis31]

All the talk about destiny in media made me think of my favorite use case for it, which is to have characters question if it exists or is real. Pyrrha Nikos from RWBY is a solid example. She asks "do you believe in destiny?" a fair amount, but also just before risking her life, and it makes the audience and other characters question the world and if her actions were necessary. It's kinda neat. Not amazing, but servicable.

[@terrydontcancelme0119]

So are we getting another one of these about rebirth cuz this was pretty funny

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Perhaps! And I'm glad you liked it!

[@soopahcaboose]

Cool video as usual! I think we all agree, dumb plot device ghosts are dumb. It really hurts to see, there's a lot of love in these models and scenes.

[@Dyvone]

I still need to play Remake. This definitely helped me shake off the apprehension.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

I definitely enjoyed a lot of it. Combat was cool and the plot beats they do well they do REALLY well. I can't say I endorse squeenix in general tho.

[@J--Dubs]

The ghosts throwing Wedge off a building because he’s “supposed to die” was so ridiculous and it took me out of the story. It didn’t take me out of it because I liked the character, It took me out of it because they have NO AGENCY in anything they do. If you’re “supposed to live” then the ghosts bring you back to life (see Barret), and if you’re “not supposed to live” then the ghosts throw you off a building (see Wedge).

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

My question is, if Wedge was meant to die, what the hell took the ghosts so long to follow through on that? Like they're touchy enough that they showed up when Barret so much as SUGGESTED something that "went against fate's plan" so

[@annemariegeudeke8378]

Loved it, can't wait for the video about rebirth lol ;)

[@readyeddy1631]

Ah yes FF7Remake, the remake/sequel that we've all been waiting for

[@gorasul12]

I was prepared for some small changes and new characters, I even wanted more stuff but they did it the worst way possible for me, even if im not a fan of the new battle mechanics so could I live with them if the story was good, I have 0 plans to play Rebirth, Remake only made me appreciate the original more.

[@chenzo55BETA]

So, the ghosts do course correction for what the story is supposed to be. The ghosts at the train grave yard? Cloud and co are going too fast and would stop the pillar from falling. Jessie getting attacked? Cloud was kicked off the mission, literally told “your services will not be required. Now I’ll have to ask you to leave, this is a private affair”. Aerith getting harassed in the beginning? She was going to meet cloud sooner than she was supposed to. I’m not saying the ghosts are a good story device but they do have reasons for what they do

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

They have reasons yes they're just really weak reasons. And cloud meets aerith at exactly the same point in the original story. The common theory is the ghosts are harassing her cause she's from the original timeline and thus doesn't belong. Evidenced by her seeming to know things she shouldn't throughout remake.

[@Reshapable]

@@TopSpinTheFuzzy Actually they're harassing her at that particular moment to keep her in place so she still runs into Cloud. Who is late because of Sephiroth's diversion through the back alley. Which... in a limited scope is kinda neat. Sephiroth is trying to alter events in his favor, because he knows if things follow the script he loses. And at the end of OG 7 he might arguably have achieved power enough to pull this stunt. Doesn't mean I support these changes but... I'll at least observe the intent for now. This is one of the few ghost interactions I can stomach with little trouble.

[@skeleharpy]

truly the patchwork of all time 🙏

[@APsaull]

I for the most part agree with a lot of the points made (nitpicks aside) but I guess the extent to which it bothered them was pretty different…

[@DWedge]

all of these plot points that you guys are talking about and the unnecessary changes and weird choices are EXACTLY why I don't want Nomura or squeenix to make a FF9 or Tactics Remake. The plot of 9 and Tactics are two of the best in the franchise, imo, and seeing how they treated the plot of people's favorite of the franchise really makes me hesitant to be excited for a remake of my favorites(not that I'd get to actually enjoy them cause they'd be locked on the ps console for like a year or two).

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Genuinely I could not agree with you more

[@hyperflareman12]

Redownloading FF7R now. Finished the video. I liked it and yeah, I do agree with some issues. Still... I feel like the IDEA of Cloud's character after the game and in Advent Children is him basically having a chance to think on who and what he is as a person after all is said and done with Sephiroth being gone. But it comes out half baked and doesn't really add anything to him. Which is why it sucks imo.

[@jumpjumplove]

YIPPEE new video!

[@melonebutworse9708]

“crossbreeding jar” is my new least favorite term

[@eliroybal2344]

You cannot just slap Sephiroth wherever you want and expect it to have the same emotional impact, it has to be earned

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Exactly! Edit : I wanna add, I think the strongest appearance of sephiroth was in the church when cloud was unconscious. Was brief enough and had a nice unsettling vibe.

[@eliroybal2344]

@@TopSpinTheFuzzy Honest to god, I don’t even remember that one, I’d have to look it up He showed up like 20 times in the game and shouldn’t have even visibly been in there once I played the Rebirth demo and it obviously showed him before going insane and was just thinking like ‘this should have been his introduction, because it WAS his introduction’ It makes me sad that I can’t even feel like his boss fight in Remake is cool, because I’m just more upset that it’s happening at all to be distracted by rule of cool

[@crazygamer4260]

I mean technically in og every time we met sepiroth it never was him

[@MysteryAGMLegend]

I still prefer the original FF7, even though it still looks rough like the polygon block characters lol. The remake is still good, but we’re just now getting part 2 with part 3 still 4 to 5 years off, and we’re not sure if it’ll have a problem set 5. They basically took disc 1 of the game, and divided it into two pieces.

[@Shift_Salt]

I only played a little bit of the remake while it was free on PlayStation and tbh I wasn't that into it. Didn't play it that long, I grew up watching older family play the original and always thought it was really charming. Didn't feel that same charm in the remake, and the new style of gameplay wasn't that fun compared to the rare times I did get to play OG 7 or other old FF titles.

[@Dirty0o0Jester]

I also busted out the Whiskey about half way through the video. I haven't looked at this game at all. The combat looks almost worth it tho!

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Combat is great I can't knock that

[@Rage_Templar]

I can't believe I'm saying this.... but if Cloud the SOILDER wannabe that has Sepheroth tendencies and Shrinra knowledge, would be making the reasonable call to kill Reno when he had the chance. I guess my question is, why would he listen to a girl who is crazy and don't know what she's talking about and more importantly, *not his friend?*

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Cause for all his tough guy shit an mental illness he's a soft boy at heart

[@alexisrios4991]

And they went and seem to have double down on the pointless ass ghost on Rebirth. The OG story is fine, why couldn’t they just follow that. It may have been lackluster at times but that’s ok, As a writer I understand there has to be some low points on my story. But I refuse to put in stuff that won’t benefit in the story and the characters development at all.

[@alexisrios4991]

after playing several hours of Rebirth, they actually just reduce the whispers to just being mentioned and the story is a lot better for it. Rebirth is a significant upgrade to Remake, Im having a blast playing it.

[@alpha00zero]

The Plot Ghost should've possessed people to get in the way rather then physically interact like with Jessie. This is WILD speculation on my part but there's this feeling that the Plot Ghosts/Planet's Will is trying to overcorrect events because Sephiroth is probably doing far more damage then we see. It's that time travel rule seen in a bunch of fiction where a character trying to correct a certain event go the way it was meant to originally not realizing that there's probably tons of smaller elements that caused what they want to fix, leading to chain of smaller events to play out completely differently. That's kinda what happens with Barret getting stabbed and the Plot Ghosts healing him, hence overcorrecting what Sephiroth fucked up. At the pillar, they weren't trying to prevent them but delaying them as they probably a little early and it would've most likely allowed them to save Biggs and Jessie from their per-ordained death. It's definitely extremely clumsy writing tho, not disagreeing at all with that. But Remake puts too much in it's mystery box and we're left stupidly confused. Also, in the case of Remake, "fate"/"destiny" feels mainly related to the actions the party already did in the original. So it doesn't remove their agency per say, it's mainly Remake trying to explain why things must happen the way they do... and then it doesn't matter because Sephiroth fucks up so much that Rebirth is now two timelines?! Maybe?!?!? And the party defying fate feels like it is recontextualize as fighting the will of the planet itself so that Sephiroth can take over it!?!? Otherwise, I feel like what you all put down is pretty solid criticism in general. It's very much a Nomura-like story with too many questions left unanswered even after Remake so hopefully, Rebirth helps out with that. I feel like its almost a given that Bugenhagen will exposition the fuck out of the player like he did in the original.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

You make some solid points, but I personally even feel that having one timeline set a precedent for how things must play out in another is a bit odd. But it is, as you say, just a matter of clumsy writing. I don't necessarily hate the idea of an alternate timeline story where the old influences the new but it feels extremely forced here, I think. That said, I am apprehensive about split timeline stories in general, mostly cause they're difficult to make comprehensive let alone good. That and I do believe the material and themes that existed in the original were more than strong enough to fill a bigger, more modern game, and it's just kind of a shame to see that opportunity discarded in favor of something like this. But that's just a matter of taste I realize. I do think you raise a good point of it being overcompensating for sephiroth, though, and I going to mull over the story again with that in mind. Also yeah the ghosts possessing people to enact their will would have been a huge improvement.

[@alpha00zero]

@@TopSpinTheFuzzy Even writing a split/alternative timeline is ball blistering hard, especially when you already have so much of the world developed like FF7's. There's so many pieces and strings connecting everything that doing a "what if" while still dangling the strings of the original story like Remake does with nostalgia in ways is recipe for disaster in many cases. The only way to do this would be to go completely off the mark after whatever event caused the split and I'd like to believe is what Rebirth will do while keeping some familiar bits but at that point, why not just make a near 1:1? Unless the "revisits" to those plot points are heavily modified and influenced by the prior events but even then, would they not be completely unrecognizable? It's such a massive headache already just writing this because normally, it should be like a ripple effect. Age of Calamity did a ripple effect "what if" timeline and it kinda worked except for one thing: Zelda's awakening. It makes zero sense in the alt. timeline because she is always supported by all the others and Impa and she never gets to go thru the physical and mental trials of BotW's timeline, where everything is dire and the only person she can lean on is Link. It happened in AoC because... it had to happen because Link was in, arguably, mild trouble! Aside from that, the rest is fine. It was nice to see a Zelda with a fuckton of confidence and leadership and some extra characterization of others. But that small example in a simple story completely changes the dynamic of the characters. Imagine a large story with intricate characters like FF7! What a writer's nightmare it would be. At least, the Zack timeline can sorta be whatever but Cloud's is going to be filled with these moments from FF7 that will "magnetize" him to them. If they had truly defied fate, shouldn't they all be living a whole new adventure like Zack's? Are they going to meet the big serpent speared in Rebirth? If so, that means Sephiroth went back to recreate something he did in the past. Didn't he want to change history? Why would he do that again? For kicks!? Oh god.. my head. I legit wonder if they'll even keep Vincent as optional in Rebirth at this point... Like Lee said, the best part of a game is that its side content is complementary to the main content while staying optional. It enhances the core. It's the reason I absolutely loved Dragon's Dogma over the years. I would end up finding a new quest that would add to the lore and help understand an aspect of it. And DD2 seems to dwell deeper into that aspect. He kinda put into words what I felt about one of my absolute favorite games.

[@Xanfel]

*Nods Sagely*

[@LytheroStreams]

LOL

[@arkauthor]

I felt the ghost where trying to keep the canon event. The problem here however is that the ghost are forcing them without any valid reason for any character to go against it, if they were gonna do this and follow the canon event why have things that happen in the original didn't work like how Wedge surviving his fall.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Yeah the ghosts didn't seem to even remember wedge till later lol

[@kyl0ooart]

my main issue with the game is the padding. there are so many fucking ladder climbs and vaulting over when cloud can jump 20ft into the air.

[@zeldastuckthemyth5234]

I wanna take a moment to thank Lythero for defending me in his chat about a year or so ago when I brought up this exact complaint about the Nomurian plot ghosts really fucking up the plot progression throughout the game. Also, AMAZING video TopSpin! Been a fan of your animations for years and really enjoy your more longform style commentary videos, guests or otherwise.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

That's really nice of you to say, thank you!

[@vergilsparda8431]

My peak frustration with the whispers was that the cloak wasn’t hiding a cool design it was the design. It’s not like organization 13 where you take off the hood and it’s an anime boy they’re just lame.

[@joujim]

I DONT GIVE A SH*T I LOVE THE GANG

[@ScariestGhost]

I completely forgot about this video when it first came out but it's interesting to watch now with the contex of Rebirth. I only ever watched playthroughs of Remake/Rebirth so I only really have opinions on the narrative side but I used to be much more cool with the ghosts. (Rebirth spoilers from here on out) I was on board with an embodiment of fate because I thought the game was going to be about *destroying* said embodyment. Instead, Rebirth is still full of ghosts and doesn't deviate from the pre-arranged plot at all. The ending of Rebirth is so dogshit, it turns the entire story up to that point into a massive waste of time, which is probably the worst possible thing an ending can do. I genuinely don't know how they're gonna come back from this. I thus rank the game at "It's so over/10". (as an additional nitpick, the final game in the trilogy should have obviously been called FF7: Reunion but apparently they already used that title for the crisis core remake)

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

[@Galegidude]

Just saying the ghost are silly but they're pretty much trying to keep the plot on point to og FF7. They pushed Jessie down the stairs cause Barret and the team didn't want cloud to join the team. They didn't want to rely on Cloud anymore for the reactor missions. So the Plot Ghost said. Oh hell We got to break that girls leg!

[@thewes77]

The immediate acceptance of Lee needing to leave as soon as recording started is the hardest I laughed at an opening. Edit: Now that I've actually finished the video, literally everything was a good point. The Mako gas to replace the ghosts would legitimately fix Remake for me. I stopped playing the game because I got tired of the Ghosts, and I just played the original instead. Looking forward to see how Rebirth is gonna play and feel in the full release next week.

[@Tribow]

I pogged in real life

[@kalieffoster4607]

I agree and disagree..... 😊yep This is the essence of overthinking 😂😂😂

[@Eldrisaur]

I’m loving this

[@WilliamTheWatchful]

Play FFXIV. Creative Studio III has more respect for the whole Final Fantasy franchise than Nomura has.

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

I believe you

[@mmo4754]

I can't tell you how heartbroken I was when I saw how they ruined the story. The ghosts, the dumb padding and long corridors to justify the money they spent on making the assets... which will be heavily reused in the next games. I would have really preferred they spent the time and money making the game rather than taking a section of the OG you can complete in 6 hours and making it an entire game. Like, sure there's some fun gameplay there but people need to be WAY more pissed about how they implemented the ghosts. They ruined it basically, and it's only ever getting remade once... :/ When rebirth comes out, I'm going to replay the midgar section in the OG and then switch to rebirth.

[@eddy140]

Ya this game feel like a what if game. Not a remake just a fan fiction lol

[@TopSpinTheFuzzy]

Which I don't even totally hate in theory, it's just not done very well in a lot of ways, in my opinion

[@eddy140]

@@TopSpinTheFuzzy not much of a fan boy of this game but I play it like 3 times and play crisis and 100% it.

[@kclink1579]

No development to any characters??? Did you even play the game??

[@Reshapable]

Remake left me in a Smeagol/Gollum state. We loves it. We HATES it. One thing yall didn't mention (at least not specifically) that drove me insane was the amount of scenes where they treat guns like almighty unstoppable helpless-against-them devices...while near simultaneously they are comical spitball machines of no import. Helicopter got Cloud and Tifa pinned cuz it's got a gatling gun. Same helicopter 5 minutes later is background combat gimmick. MAN WITH GUN ON HIS HAND IS HELD HOSTAGE BECAUSE SOME FATASS SLOWLY PULLED OUT HIS GOLDEN GUN. 20 mins later he's mildly annoyed he has to fight a massive tank MADE of guns. No more fucking guns for you Japan, you've lost your privileges. For the sake of also presenting a positive, I am quite intrigued at them attempting to recapture the narrative uncertainty the original delivered for people that already played it. It's a really cool idea. That I have next to no faith they'll pull off because they stumbled hard right out the gate with plot ghosts. But... what if?

[@hunterh1998]

While I agree with everything said in this I am still excited for rebirth