Finally true, Full-HD HDMI for the Commodore 64

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Thank you all for your interest, the first batch of 90 units has just been ordered and will be available after thorough testing in mid Frbruary. Preorders are open at the links in the description :) I want to be clear that at launch there will be some small graphical discrepancies on some of the most complex demos, but I'll keep working on the VIC emulator until it is as close as possible to the original VIC. What matters is that all boards are user-programmable with a simple USB-C cable and a windows PC, so updates will be easy and frequent. In any case, all games we have tested ran flawlessly, so we are really talking about demos. We'll get there...

[@Tibbon]

That price is right for me. I’ll definitely buy one.

[@ivanmilenkovic8285]

What are the names of online shops? I understand you don't want to advertise them, but at least give me some hint where to look. Amazing project, by the way!

[@EllipticDawid25]

Is this will work wuth C128 ?

[@kelvindam3306]

The price is fair imho. What site should I keep a close eye to put in a order?

[@knobbymcfeck]

@@kelvindam3306 FINALLY one with audio through the HDMI port properly, too! I'm joining the comment parade to see what site I should stalk for buying in Europe.

[@Mambroz75]

As a beta tester I have been using it for some weeks and it really is a great piece of hardware, hat off to SPL (always very supportive and willing to constantly improve his product). Never had such a video quality on a real C64! I am so happy to be able to keep my old machines working of modern Oled 4K Monitor and TV!

[@lukhash]

NEED! Amazing work.

[@homerghost]

Tremendous work! Look forward to picking one up

[@StatMatsVidz]

This looks very impressive, great work! It's a very tidy solution, which could indeed be the final and best way to achieve Full HD video output along with audio from a C64. :)

[@cappy2112]

This is just brilliant, what an amazing accomplishment

[@doktor6495]

Wow, that sounds great! I think I will do an in depth test on my channel. Thank you for this fantastic project! Greetings, Doc64!

[@retro_noix]

Great work! Will buy it soon when it is available!

[@Vermilicious]

Something for Adrian Black to take a look at, I reckon!

[@datriaxsondor590]

Gotta say, that is quite nice. Always great to see improvements on digital output from retro systems. Very nice work there, bud. 🍻

[@TheRealLizardKing]

Amazing project, congratulations! It must have felt amazing when everything fell into place. Keep it up!

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Thanks for the kind words. There wasn't really a turning point in the project, it's been gradual improvements, increasingly complex prototypes and lots of trial and error. But yes I would say that I'm very proud of how this turned out and I look forward to improving it even further (via firmware updates)

[@UnexpectedMaker]

That's wild! Well done :)

[@calmik]

I never owned a C64, so I don't have a "reason" to invest... but I do have to say, that the time and investment that some people put into projects like this, like yourself, is just crazily amazing and I truly love and admire the effort that is done. also, there are NO wires going left and right in your modded C64 with your board... only your ribbon cable. it looks so slick and clean.... truly awesome so, congratulations on all this. and Happy New Year 2025

[@MagoMakes]

Awesome sauce, dude! Great to see 64 dev still alive and kicking in 2025

[@theretrogeek2281]

That’s really awesome work! 👏🏽

[@AppgamersDe]

Awesome! My congratulations!

[@xr4ffi]

🤩 I definitely need one of these. N1ce Job!

[@lowpolysaurus]

Woarh! That is so cool! Looking forward to grab one of those!

[@kelvindam3306]

Very nice! Buying as soon as possible.

[@Mambroz75]

Awesome work! You made a dream come true!

[@tjockiskatten]

Wow! Can't wait until I can buy one!

[@ZeaLitY]

Amazing. Feels more true to the hardware than console "bypasses", since the VIC-II is still doing all the heavy lifting. Will be excited to check out.

[@ArneChristianRosenfeldt]

what is it lifting? Sprite collision and line interrupts ? Ah, video DMA and sprite addresses. Kind like that one CTIA chip in the Atari 8 bit or the Agnus in Amiga.

[@sideprojectslab7352]

@@ArneChristianRosenfeldtAll the timing and the active interactions are handled by the VIC-II, so the HD-64 is "just" a passive listener, which simplifies things and completely removes the risk of crashes due to incorrect timing. If you look at what's inside the FPGA, it's probably a good 80% of a whole VIC, but in terms of development effort it is infinitely less, as I could basically disregard a bunch of devilish quirks that are however crucial for the correct operation of the C64

[@ArneChristianRosenfeldt]

@@sideprojectslab7352 How does sprite crunching work? So the FPGA listens if the VIC pulls any data for a sprite in a given scanline and only then also draws it on screen? Since VIC discards all sprite pattern data while drawing, this also works for y zoom. Nice. So cycle perfect sync is needed. Ah, and any video data on stolen CPU cycles goes into the internal line buffers (for character code (the stupid TED on C16 stores ExtendedColor data here and also there is the bitmap mode) and attribute). I thought that the original VIC has the bad timing. An FPGA implementation could resolve the VSPbug even on original memory. So if you plan to remove only one original part...

[@sideprojectslab7352]

@@ArneChristianRosenfeldt The best answer I have would be to go and check my python implementation, but the TLDR is that the FPGA will digest everything it finds on the memory bus, line by line, this includes crunched sprites

[@mslinklater]

Very impressive ! Bravo !

[@DJBisGOD]

Definitely want one of these when they are available

[@JohnSmith-bh4zx]

What a great addition for the C64.

[@carloscatano1750]

Fantastic!

[@toddtrann88]

That video output looks great

[@regisdumoulin]

This looks great, but would it work on a C128? I'm not talking about the RGB 80 column C128 output, just the regular 40 columns mode. I understand the Vic chip is not exactly the same in the C128, so there might be some extra work to do on that side. And, yeah, you guessed right, I do have a C128 (and no C64)

[@sideprojectslab7352]

electrically it should be fine, with the proper adapter, and the shared features should work just fine. But I don't really know to which extent the two chips overlap

[@bpa5721]

Lovely!

[@cmvandijk]

Great! Does it also work in the newer C64C model ?

[@GeorgesvanDelft]

Hi, what an incredible achievement! Do you guys know if there is a similar solution for the Commodre Amiga 500? That would be great! Thanks

[@NNokia-jz6jb]

Well done! ❤

[@chipetke]

by any chance, can this be compatible with the c128? I know its VIC has different pinout, but with a different adapter board...

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I really wouldn't know, the C128 also has additional capabilities that would take a long time to develop. Though I would be glad to cooperate if someone would pick up the task

[@summerWTFE]

Wow! Always wanted something like this. Also for the Amiga.

[@pikozzyhobbykanal]

There is a solution for the OCS/ECS Amigas (500/600/2000) based on the Raspberry Pi Zero called RGB2HDMI

[@oleurgast730]

@@pikozzyhobbykanal Also the Indivision from iComp for AGA Amigas (A1200, A4000, CD32), wich actually replaces the Lisa (implementing the full Lisa in FPGA, exept the A2024-mode) and can output HDMI or VGA. The ECS/OCS version (replacement for Denise, A1000, A500(+), A2000, A3000,CDTV,A600)) only outputs VGA. However, both without digitizing the audio. It is perfect if your Denise or Lisa died, as you do not need the original chip anymore.

[@trasher1581]

Very cool! Especially like and interested in your ezhdl. Will need to check it out! Wondering why not use myhdl though?! BTW copperdragon didn't invent the idea of sniffing the vic II. This was done way back in the chameleon and maybe others. Also don't expect the vic implementation to be a walk in the park due to being "passive". It still gotta handle all those quirks.. Copperdragon had some issues seen only in certain demos. I'd like to buy an early version when available!

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Yes, EzHDL will be my next big project in 2025. I tried MyHDL but I really don't agree with many design choices and it lacks some testing facilities that I deem necessary. The project has too much legacy to be truly restructured at this point so I decided to do it from scratch. If you'd like to help out with writing a EzHDL-to-Verilog converter I'd be delighted to coach you. The VIC implementation was not easy but I was able to replicate the Kawari implementation very closely, to the point that all the demos I tried behave identical to the original VIC, while the c0pperdragon board has visible issues. I am sure there will be additional small quirks to adjust in the future but we are extremely close already.

[@GiuTor73]

Can the technical info of this project be used to increase the resolution of the Vic 2 provided a memory expansion is supplied?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I'm not sure I can follow, can you expand?

[@0toleranz]

Not exactly. As the VIC2 is the driving bit which accesses the memory for characters attributes and sprites it defines the produced image by the requested data. I’m not exactly share is the HD64 could be easily modified to do the DMA by it self but I bet the board and interposed cable hav to be modified for this. The next issue is that the VIC 2 only has an address range of 16kBytes which limits the possible resolution too. And there are only 4bit wide attribute data (color ram) available which is also limiting. To overcome these limitations there have to be quite a bit of modifications be done to the c64 to allow for larger memory space for an extended VIC II. By then you delve into an other system architecture as you also have to feed that more of resolution with the necessary data via a more powerful CPU and possibly mass storage system.

[@kellyobrien8599]

I wish they'd come out with a retro C-64. Or even a Tandy CO-CO 3.

[@Michael.Werker]

Do you also have a C128 version? The VIC-IIe has more functions.

[@kalsolarUK]

Does this also work and fit on a C64C?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

yepp

[@adamt3912]

Great project, nice work. Would be interested to know how this differs from other options in more detail. Thinking versus lumacode, kawari etc.

[@sideprojectslab7352]

It is internal and fully hardware based (the emulator is on FPGA), unlike the Lumacode, and it outputs Full-HD video with stereo audio, unlike the Kawari which does low(er) resolution DVI without audio

[@adamt3912]

@sideprojectslab7352 Thanks for the reply, It looks a very neat solution and great to see more development on output solutions. Looks like an addition to my shopping list 😀.

[@miselzivanovic2181]

This is really fantastic achievement... But i am a C128 user... Would that work there too? In fact could that fix the 2MHz problem? (There is no video signal/output when in FAST mode as you very probably already know) I mean that would be a mega sensation 😁 and give to a C128 absolutely new possibilities (and also to the C64 Mode on C128)... If that is not supported now, would it actually be possible?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Unfortunately the VIC of the 128 has a different pinout and in general seems to have different additional capabilities that are not covered in this development. In addition to that there seem to be mechanical/clearance issues

[@mpeg2tom]

This is an awesome hack! Now for the Commodore PET...

[@superviewer]

Great news for the bread bin :)

[@Elfdogable]

Is this as easy as unsnapping the original module out for this one?

[@sagebrushrepair]

This is incredible! The board With newer revisions, do you see major ICs changing or is the BOM locked for now? I see people messing with resistors on the discord which is nbd.

[@sideprojectslab7352]

The BOM is about fixed but we are trying to improve the quality of the S-Video output. If it comes out that we actually need a fix at all I'll personally patch all production boards from the 1st batch, and then adjust the circuit for coming batches. But anything that has to do with HDMI is pretty much consolidated at this point

[@COMATRON.]

cant find the discord adress - i need to get one

[@VideogameBucko]

Great work especially getting the audio integrated too. Could you please add a direct video output mode (240p over HDMI, with DV1 metadata preferably) for those of us who already have a external scaler like Morph4k, OSSC etc?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I don't see this happening, sorry. I want to keep the project simple and handling too many cases would mean either lots of on-the fly reconfiguration and/or maintaining multiple builds, which is something I will try to avoid as long as possible

[@VideogameBucko]

@@sideprojectslab7352 I see, that's a real shame and would have made this much more appealing to many people who already have scalers. The original Copperdragon board did have a pass through mode but I appreciate it's more difficult to implement over HDMI. I do hope you will reconsider one day!

[@sideprojectslab7352]

@@VideogameBucko I'm not sure I follow though, what would you do with 240p over HDMI? I don't think it's even a supported resolution... And you do still have the analog signal on the AV connector. Are you perhaps referring to integer scaling?

[@VideogameBucko]

@@sideprojectslab7352 You feed the raw 240p (well 288p in my case since I'm using a PAL C64) directly to a next generation scaler such as Morph or OSSC Pro. The scaler then handles ALL of the scaling and post processing (scanlines, masks etc). With the way you have it now, the image would be scaled twice, once by the board and then again by the scaler, which is all right but not ideal. Sure you can put the analogue signal directly into your scaler too, but that's of course susceptible to noise etc, being analogue, and especially being a C64 lol, not like a nice clean digital to digital solution like you've developed here. While it might not be an official resolution in the HDMI spec, Most HDMI mods now support passthrough mode (PixelFX Gem, CPS2 digital) as well as the Mister project.

[@Lardzor]

Maybe now they can finally unlock the true potential of this sleeping dragon.

[@flyingwings4740]

How much in UK pounds ?

[@c4stor534]

Shut up, start producing and take my money!!

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I won't shut up! I must answer to kind comments like yours :D that aside, I'm doing my best!

[@mirabilis]

It's like a cyborg now. No added sound noise by letting the flex running that close to the SID, I assume? Does it handle all those crazy tricks used in demos?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

The SID audio is already so noisy that any added noise would be completely drowned by what is already there, but no, there seems to be no degradation. As for the tricks, that's the idea, it should be identical to a real VIC-II, I think I got pretty far with that, but if we find more details going forward I will address them

[@mirabilis]

@sideprojectslab7352 Yeah, it's noisy, true. I remediated some of it on my own machine by putting some pull downs on the input pin on the SID. It's kind of floating. I've seen people putting buffers on all the digital inputs too. That makes a huge difference. Perhaps v2 will have buffers on the SID daughter board j/k j/k. 😉 I bet you already have that, but for voltage step-down.

[@dktr2]

Is the original VIC still needed, or will it work without it?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Yes it is still needed. The decision is very much intentional, as you get to retain the original functionality of the computer. It is a fantastic debugging tool too, as I can view the same exact output from teh HD-64 and from the AV-Connector side by side and spot the differences, I'll make a video soon on this.

[@RadimPolasek]

it'd be fine to have something similar for Atari. nice solution. 👍

[@taznz1]

Sold, I've been look for a solution that will work on 250469 shortboard for a while.

[@1SMHARRIS]

Is there any chance for some shop in the USA to sell these?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I have nothing against it, in fact it would be a lot better for US customers as they would pay much less for both shipping and taxes. However I haven't had the chance to get in touch with any shops yet, nor would I know which ones are suitable. Definitely something to consider for the next batches though

[@HojoNorem]

Impressive! PAL delay line colour mixing (supported on c0pperdragon module) coming soon, yes?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I'll get to that eventually, first I need to polish the VIC-II emulator, then I'll add the fancy stuff

[@malcolmogilvy4885]

While cheapo HDMI scalers using the S Vido and AV at the same time to HDMI with a smoothing filter and scanline generator built in they are only £30 from Ali Express yet it is way better using a CRT Monitor S Video to VGA and a Scanline Generator to get fat or thin scanlines adjust the screen size adding extra color and contrast to any slightly washed out CRT Monitor it is AUTHENTIC looks way better than just a plain CRT TV with S Video as it ennhances the grahics slightly it looks almost as good as RGB connection

[@breadbaker]

Great! That's a buy from me.

[@PromoVisionNZ]

Is there any plans to make same one but for c128? providing they have way worst output than c64:)

[@XaFFaX]

I find it intereting this small board is like hundreds faster with hundreds time more memory than the entire system it supports...

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Not quite, it has a small fraction of the system's memory and it could only host a small fraction of the entire system if I were to emulate the various chips. It has the smallest FPGA that would allow for the functionality I had in mind

[@XaFFaX]

@@sideprojectslab7352 I take that back, as I looked up specs for what you have used. Then again I do not think you mentioned what you used and you do not indicate that on the shop page. Had to look at the pictures. Main chip is also grinded on the pics at least, which is a bit shady, but whatever. Initially I figured you need something quite powerful to process video, but then I reminded myself we are talking about NTSC/PAL resolutions with 16 colors, so almost anything can handle that.

[@nicoful86]

What price range are we talking?

[@Hulken_no]

Can it be used on the C=128PC?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Unfortunately the C128 would need a full new development as far as I can tell

[@starz5666]

Will it support the graydot bug?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Not yet implemented, it's on my backlog. I am planning to support this platform for a long time. The hardware can be user-updated simply via USB

[@Dark_eVader]

That looks amazing. How much do you think it would cost to get one shipped to the Philippines? Of course, the cheaper the better as most of us can barely afford to buy upgrades so we have to rely on those cheap esp32 or RP Zero that we can get for a couple of bucks.

[@sideprojectslab7352]

International shipping from the Netherlands goes for about 12 to 15€ for destinations outside of europe

[@hedninggp1728]

Any info about any lag (upscaling etc usually takes its toll)?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

as I mentioned, being a 100% hardware solution (FPGA) and being synchronized in lockstep with the original VIC, the latency is about 600-700us (just a few video lines), which is quite low if you ask me :D

[@hedninggp1728]

@@sideprojectslab7352 That's awesome. I look forward testing this one!

[@1stacbats]

Will you be doing one for the c128?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Sadly, I don't think I will, this project has strained me immensely already, and most of the effort went into developing the VIC-II emulation. The rest (circuit design and video processing) is my job and I mostly know what I'm doing, but the VIC was tough. I really don't want a rematch, but I'll be happy to consult anyone who would like to pick up the challenge

[@divingernie6947]

Good work! very nice. where can i buy this boards in Europe / Germany ?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

preorders will open in the coming days at the two shops in the video descriptiont. Boards should be available in early February for international orders

[@MegaManNeo]

This is so cool. Sadly I don't have a C64 anymore since my childhood days - other than a shell with the keyboard I combined with the Keyrah to give me a USB keyboard - but I love the passion by the community that keeps the Commodore 64 and other 8bits alive.

[@sbranca]

This is awesome. Are there any compatability issues using this with an NTSC shortboard? When I had looked into the VIC-II Kawari, I believe there were some problems due to the SuperPLA.

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I have tested on an NTSC board and it works no problem. I also shipped a board to a Canadian tester that's going to put the HD-64 through some serious NTSC testing

[@sbranca]

@@sideprojectslab7352That’s great news. Looking forward to purchasing one when it’s available.

[@summerWTFE]

What is that game at @1:42?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Old Tower(S), you can find it here: retrosouls.itch.io/old-tower-commodore-64

[@NathanOZlegend]

if you want clear picture just use a crt

[@the_jcbone]

Would that replace a defective VIC II?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

it does not :) perhaps I will turn this into a complete replacement in the future, but it's quite a challenge, so that would be long down the line

[@rdwoodw]

Take my money!!

[@damienretro4416]

Does it do integer scaling?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

not right now, it will in the future as soon as I implement adjustable overscan. In any case, even when no blur is selected the anti-aliasing I implemented does a pretty good job

[@BooXdk]

Please take my money ASAP 😊

[@xomkong]

You can't do without scanlines, the good old games look terrible on an LCD without them 🙂

[@_.OX._]

Does it introduce any lag?

[@COMATRON.]

under one ms he said

[@sideprojectslab7352]

not really. The output frame starts being transmitted 10/12 lines after the input frame starts, so we are around 600/700us, which is quite low in the world of digital video (most screens have several ms latency)

[@FindecanorNotGmail]

Most flat-screen TVs do add some lag after they received the signal though. Some do have a "game mode" with lower latency an less image processing though.

[@katho8472]

Shut up and take my money!

[@mikeyytube00]

Looks neat, but eff Micro HDMI. Garbage connector.

[@sideprojectslab7352]

I know, terrible, even routing the lines on the PCB is pure pain, but it's the only connector that would fit in the original slot, without having to modify the case

[@roxair1]

I will never understand the urge for using old hardware on modern monitors. The software library was made having small CRTs as displays in mind. Modern high resolution display quality just ruins it for me. You can have this on an emulator to make it more cheap and simple. But hey, whatever floats your boat 😅

[@sideprojectslab7352]

If you have original hardware but cannot find, can't afford, or don't have the space for a CRT, then the original hardware is a glorified paperweight. Not to mention that there will come a time when not a single workng CRT monitor is left. We mostly do this out of necessity rather than principle

[@TubeAtilla]

Good, but all this modding kills the original hardware feeling. Then the emulator is just fine..

[@sideprojectslab7352]

This will actually be the topic of one of my next videos, but make no mistake, the mods I design are intended to leave the underlying hardware as stock as possible, in fact you can still use the thing 100% like in the old days

[@malcolmogilvy4885]

HELL NO rather a Scaler and Scanline generator using S Video to VGA to a CRT monitor it is more AUTHENTIC and actually almost looks as good as RGB making the Commodore 64 graphics enhanced HDMI screens SUCK for retro gaming

[@sideprojectslab7352]

Thing is, with the HD-64 you still have the S-Video output, just like before, so you can still do all the things you said just the same. You now have the option to output HDMI as well. Is this product for you? I'm going to guess it isn't, but do you make space for the possibility that it could be useful to someone, or that others might actually prefer the video quality over HDMI, as well as the clean setup without external conversion boxes?

[@malcolmogilvy4885]

@@sideprojectslab7352 a cheapo Chinese Ali Express blue and red things with S Video to HDMI Scaler does the exact same thing

[@RiederProductions]

Does this introduce any input lag?

[@sideprojectslab7352]

700us give or take, sub 1ms