Coach v Solver: Whose Advice is Better?

In this video we compare the advice of a poker coach, Bart Hanson, and a solver, GTOx, for the same hand played by Brad Owen.
Original Vid: • You WON'T BELIEVE What...
Brad's Channel: / @bradowenpoker
Bart's Channel: / @crushlivepoker

[@CrushlivePoker]

Love the zoom in on my expressions and reactions when Brad chooses to raise the river, honored to be apart of a Finding Equilibrium video!

[@FindingEquilibrium]

Thanks for the content! I'm a long time fan of your show!

[@rverges23]

@CrushlivePoker Bart Goat.

[@LevelofClarity]

Would love to see the two of you collaborate. That would be some awesome content.

[@brettmasonmedia]

Ok this is a great concept for a series. Loved it. Hope to see more like it.

[@johngriller4997]

Plot twist: Brad was actually the spot at that table 😆

[@PoochysUncle]

where’s the twist

[@lgscsc]

@@PoochysUncle lolllllllll

[@johngriller4997]

@@PoochysUncle you win 😆

[@garygwinn4256]

Brad is a good player.

[@Michaelperry1985]

Great work FE! Big fan of your Channel, Big fan of Bart's Channel, great match

[@loki09ful]

Excellent kind of video, hope to see more video like that in the future ! Thx for youre job

[@lostforwords17]

It’s funny coming back to playing after a few years to the same pools and they’re only marginally better. I think most people’s thresholds to learning theory limits the progress of the whole ecosystem and give the top players bigger gaps than before. Until people can directly input solves into their memory or until RTA is everywhere I think poker will be alive and well for a long time.

[@CrushlivePoker]

What does this mean exactly that you think Brad should have jammed the river because the guy who bet out of turn is playing GTO?

[@johnsouza1186]

@@CrushlivePoker I think I would call after that bet out of turn on the river. But its just my opinion.

[@FloppedNutZzz]

Once again the best content on KZbin!

[@superpasi7315]

love te frequent uploads keep up the great work

[@FindingEquilibrium]

Thanks. The trolls and haters invigorate me.

[@scottywayne]

Great vid thanks. And nice feedback from both Bart and Brad.

[@romanizzo3412]

Good video. Is the BBs range adjusted vs the 4x in the solver?

[@srki22]

The lesson: Do not overthink. Use the KISS strategy on the river (check Wikipedia for KISS). Even 20 years ago in poker theory books, we had a simple working strategy where we divided our range into 3 segments on the river: folding range, calling range, raising range. The question is now, do we have a lot of stronger holdings than 88? If we don't then we raise, but in this hand it is not the case. We have a lot of flushes with our play so we will still win a lot of value with those hands so it is ok just to call with 88. After we are comfortable using KISS, we can add some advanced moves, like bluff-raising with a spade blocker, etc.

[@Gos1234567]

Good advice.Brads logic is pretty suprising here and cant be justified,is a worst hand that 888 on that kind of board going to call his raise?Not a chance.

[@superpasi7315]

Does it still make sense to assume a default range for fish in the cutoff even tho we know his range is gonna look a lot different?

[@FindingEquilibrium]

If you have a good sense of your opponent's range, then it would probably be best to use that.

[@uggibugg95]

Hmm, I think Brad's thought process is a stretch, even though the villain is a rec. Let's assume he actually leads out with TPGK on the river, he probably won't ever call a raise, so you end up value owning yourself vs 5x and flushes. But I guess he might have seen villain do some crazy hero calls or weird bets earlier, so... Hard to tell...

[@zyzzmirincomeatme]

Thomas er dette deg? Bislett?

[@uggibugg95]

@@zyzzmirincomeatme Hahah, ja 😅

[@zyzzmirincomeatme]

@@uggibugg95 hahah, ma man

[@ClarkPotter]

I went to subscribed to subscribed + bell after this. What a phenomenal internet collab between these three players. Such goodwill all around, too. I like that everyone is "right," as well, presuming Brad's inferences are generally accurate, which we can because he's been on such a tear at low to mid-stakes. I would have just called on the river in that spot, but would have been unsure if my decision were tainted by fear, even though I'm generally aggressive and not a fearful player, my style being very similar to Brad's. So I respect Brad's spirit here to trust his intuition and go for the play, which the solver corroborated presuming his image of villain were accurate enough. Respect for Bart whose wherewithal was validated by the solver. Final shout out props to his opponent, who made a tough and scary call himself, who had to do so when Brad's line was very congruent with having a flush after checking the flop and then betting the turn and raising the river. So kudos to all four players here. What a great channel. I think it's my new favorite.

[@jackbittker4249]

Moral of the story: Brad is a GTO wizard

[@wuwenhao1662]

Whatever prices gto wizard is paying u, FE will double it

[@88mphDrBrown]

Jesus that opening brought me back to the 90's

[@JonyBetancourt]

Awesome content!

[@fedea82]

I think since Brad was not able to act first on the river, you should have ALSO nodelocked oop to check the entire range on river. Maybe this would make the equilibrium response to ip's bet having 88 a mix between raising and calling, since now 88 went up in value w regards to oop's checking range.

[@khalidalshammari3566]

but he didnt really check. the other player bet out of turn so he is oop now

[@ewallt]

I had some trouble with the concept of using a solve to solve for a play out of turn. You’d have to assume something different happen than actually happened, wouldn’t you? That is, for the river play, you assume something like it went check bet, when it actually went bet out of turn. Hence to analyze this with a solver you need to change the rules of the game to allow for the river bet to be made by the guy who closed the action on the turn, then the solver could maximize the ev, but otherwise you have to model something different than actually happened.

[@fedea82]

I thik what FE missed is that he should also nodelock oop player to check entire range on river first, since Brad didn't act first.

[@Losingmicrostakespro]

Great video as always. Would be interesting to see a review of some hands from TCH Dallas 10/25/50 stream with Kyle Z and JD

[@tobyc8905]

My favourite video yet

[@lauripolak1268]

Bart is the winner on this one

[@Cowtymsmiesznego]

Brad's logic about the villain "getting excited about the river" applies even more so to 55 than to Ax. I don't understand why they think villain wouldn't check 55 back on the flop.

[@beaubradley9539]

There are way more Ax combos than 55 combos. Almost an order of magnitude more.

[@nathanielmorgan3592]

Wouldn't turn overbet be much better since villian is extremely capped?

[@evrenturan5632]

Love both channels, great video!

[@synchronium24]

8:52 Any idea why a quarter pot bet sizing is the least common, despite having the lowest EV regret of all options?

[@sergiozack974]

I assume it’s cos the board is dynamic and hands like 99/TT/A8 wanna put as much money now before board changes (many over cards can come). And small size don’t pressure enough hands like JTs/KTs with BDFD.

[@synchronium24]

@@sergiozack974 Well, that would explain why a larger size is preferred. The higher EV regret of a larger size still doesn't make sense to me.

[@sergiozack974]

​@@synchronium24 It's hard to bet very big with whole range and don't lose much EV. It's easier with small bet tho.

[@synchronium24]

@@sergiozack974 Thanks, I think that makes sense. Big bet ranges are often narrow (and polar).

[@oliver8510]

You never commented on the turn probe bet size. Surely bigger than 1/2 pot is better

[@juliusjr04]

Johnny Vibez brought me here after he named dropped you on his latest vlog 😘❤️

[@ClarkPotter]

This channel will have 10x (300k+) subscribers by 2023.

[@DatAceTho]

This seems like a very strange hand to bring in the solver. What is the Nash equilibrium of a drunk betting out of turn?

[@mrx7181]

Correct play is to just call...

[@mrx7181]

I don't think it's particularly close. I'm basically saying that brad's assumptions are mostly exaggerated.

[@emilecarette8993]

You are right

[@davinho69]

brad is a live regfish

[@shanejett3550]

13:12 what does one liner mean?

[@oliver8510]

4 cards on the board which allow one card to make a straight. E.g. A234 on the board

[@shanejett3550]

@@oliver8510 thanks, for confirming! I figured that was the case. The term one liner is nowhere to be found in any poker glossary.

[@nonenonerson7130]

Love this video. Bart is the man.

[@MarkorikYe]

How can he bet 1st otr being IP,is this some kind of a live thing lol

[@AjDotKom]

how many times do they have to say "out of turn"?

[@Gos1234567]

@@AjDotKom 😂🤣😎

[@rtsang17]

1:28 and here is a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect 😂

[@samuraijack1371]

Apparently, he didn’t have a lot of “respect” for his opponent nor for his own hand

[@ChrisM-wv4gs]

wouldn't a good coach use a solver instead of fighting against it

[@PrimeTerrific]

That's why Bart's a good coach!

[@robertbronson1639]

you gotta wonder what the guy called with on the turn. there is four to a straight otb and now he leads big, wth am i watching here? you cant flippin raise.

[@jamesevans2507]

What a pathetic raise.

[@Gos1234567]

pretty ridiculous and hilarious after saying V was the big fish 🤣

[@alexanderhitch5786]

When will we see MAN beat MACHINE??

[@jdearles1]

I like your channel and have several comments. I like this concept, but don't think this hand is a good candidate or that the solver output is applicable to this situation. what you are ultimately doing is extrapolating your interpretation of what a solver would do in this situation (bc the sim does not actually match the stack sizes, preflop structure, or river action). so aren't you just adding a human element of opinion instead of showing exactly what the mathematical solution is?

[@longchunpang8011]

Even as a patreon and long admirer I don't think what u said at 21:54 is correct. The GTO solver solution's would be 'incorrect' or not EV maximizing iff the input is incorrect. Don't really get why you say the GTO solution is always effective irrespective of the type of opponent you are against. Here the pure call with 88 is based on the assumption that your opponent bets 15bb using HIS gto range and bet frequency, THEN the unexploitable strategy for hero is to flat call. Actions are sequential.

[@FindingEquilibrium]

I didn't say EV maximizing - I said "effective". By this, I mean at worst break-even over the long run, which must be true if it is a nash-equilibrium strategy. If your opponent deviates from GTO, then there will likely be a strategy that is alternative to GTO that is EV/profit maximizing, but that alternative strategy can be countered, which GTO cannot.

[@longchunpang8011]

​@@FindingEquilibrium Thanks for the prompt reply to define 'effective' here (while i was sleeping in Asia time zone lol) and yes this means perfect sense to me. Looks like more great content (and updates) are coming to prove the haters wrong!

[@garygwinn4256]

Brad is a much better player than this video would Indicate.

[@robertoshevchenko]

Assuming opponent is playing optimal ranges vs fish is ridiculous. He's guaranteed to deviate from GTO to a degree that would disfigure any results as soon as preflop. Everything solved afterwards is gonna be gibberish sinse you're using ranges, sizes and frequencies that you can only guess and not even doing your best guessing.

[@jonathangoldsmith7832]

I don’t know if this constructive criticism only affects me, or maybe a larger portion of your audience, but the cadence of this channel is too slow, and I find myself daydreaming and needing to rewind unless I listen at 1.5 speed.

[@1MANhimself]

Brad: He is calling river raise with a pair of aces like AQ. Villain: Thinking of folding a straight instead.. Brad's expectations couldn't be further from the truth... Can I have a seat at his table please?

[@sklee318]

You can't solve rec players 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@prenomnom6203]

if you think a solver can help you more than a coach you obviously didn't find the right coach.

[@lostforwords17]

Get a coach who can do both tbh 😂

[@lukebruce5234]

there are coaches who don't use solvers?

[@superpasi7315]

Maybe if you’re a real beginner and have no understanding of solvers but you should know that the solver is the coaches coach

[@brettmasonmedia]

@@lukebruce5234 sure. Brad Wilson comes to mind

[@ChrisM-wv4gs]

maybe but if you have a coach that thinks solvers are overrated or dont work you need to find a new coach A good coach would use a solver as a tool not act like its the enemy