Finger Strength Training 4 Rock Climbing (No Hanging Required!)

[@AndreaBonora-yq5rt]

Hi! I'm a physioterapist and a climber and I'd love to thank you for your contents. Great science and clear exposure, those videos are a blessing for ppl like me! Thk!

[@c4hp.]

Wow, Andrea. That's great. Thanks for your kind words. Stay tuned. The third video should be coming out this week.

[@AndreaBonora-yq5rt]

@@c4hp. cant wait! Thk for your work 🤩

[@only_climb]

I can confirm that my only finger training in these past 6 months has been performing warm-ups with a portable hangboard (concentric movements) lasting 3-4 seconds. Initially at low intensity and eventually performing one-two repetition of maximum strength. My fingers are healthier y stronger than ever!!

[@c4hp.]

Sick! Thanks for sharing

[@tetch49]

Great video. I like how the long form videos let you add relevant context that helps us understand your thought process. 🤘

[@Liftsmcgee]

We’ll be doing more so this is great to hear!

[@murghay01]

So happy to have found your channel!

[@c4hp.]

Thanks. Sharing with others would be appreciated too!

[@FingersofFuryClimbing]

Took all your classes back during Covid lockdown. Glad to see you hopping on KZbin and sharing some of that great content you've been putting out for years outside of Instagram. Can't wait to see more!

[@Liftsmcgee]

We love to hear that! And thank you for supporting C4HP for so long!

[@FingersofFuryClimbing]

Thanks @@Liftsmcgee ! You’ve actually got a post on Instagram I’ve referenced where you’re doing a floor pull where you had to stand on blocks to pull weight off the ground that I used when I first started making hangboards that have an integrated carabiner eyelet. So a double thank you to you specifically as well!

[@c4hp.]

🤘 rad. Thanks for the support

[@rmueller]

This is super helpful! Thank you for being clear yet detailed 🙏

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you so much for your feedback and kind words! The youtube world will allow us to be more thorough with our education, visuals, graphics, etc. which will hopefully continue to clarify all of our topics!

[@c4hp.]

Glad it was helpful! Please share w a friend.

[@slothvibes2029]

Recently got a tendeq Progressor and this video helps to make sure I’m using it correctly. Thank you Tyler for all the information you put out there! I remember meeting you at one of the coaching seminars you did. Have a blessed day!

[@tonimartin681]

Scientific explanation mixed with very practical training issues....Congrats. Thanks a lot for this so great video !!!!

[@c4hp.]

🙏for watching

[@sebastian31337]

Awesome content, thanks for sharing! I am off to watching your second video!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you so much for watching! Let me know what your favorite part was!

[@melikelot]

Phenomenal video. Concise and well structured with some ideas that are new to me. Keep it up!

[@c4hp.]

Thanks. Be sure to share with your climbing friends!

[@AltitudeVibes]

Great video! I can tell finger strength is my limiting factor climbing and wanted to know how to safely build strength without injury. I appreciate all the added context to all these exercises

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for your kind words. Finger strength matters, but building it with the least amount of risk is important.

[@thoisei]

Thank you guys so much for sharing these approaches and recommendations publicly. Fantastic work, once again.

[@tadasdirzys]

Great quality video. Really enjoyed visual info and short clips to better understand what you are saying. Keep it up, great work!

[@c4hp.]

Much appreciated!

[@jeremymager4515]

Love it!!! Cant wait for future video as well!

[@c4hp.]

More to come for sure!

[@Animatedron]

That was an incredible journey. Stunning stunning shots too.

[@homayoonf]

I love Tyler’s « in this context » thing. Great video. Thanks man.

[@c4hp.]

🤘

[@eric.jerome]

love the stock video at the end!! hahah. nice one, Tyler!

[@c4hp.]

that's all collin w the editing.

[@die_hertz]

You've sold me a Tindeq Dr. Tyler Nelson 😅 If I ever get to the US I hope I'll be able to attend one of your courses as well

[@c4hp.]

There are some available online, and on sale through tomorrow. Use the code: fallsale on my web store

[@moon_boogie]

Main Takeaway: The grip that produces the most force with the most finger involvement is the grip to prioritize with off the wall finger strength training - keep the PIP joints at a 90-120° bend. Resultant Takeaway: Unlevel edges produce a force increase around 15-20% compared to a flat edge (traditional) training medium, due to limited anatomical activation of the pinky and index finger - an edge that engages all fingers evenly will better improve coordination and voluntary activation. Still not completely clear on the differences between curling vs. pulling training, but hopefully will be further covered in future videos. Thank you for the knowledge, Tyler!

[@c4hp.]

headtotoe3d.com/?aff=3

[@climbjacksprat]

Great video, so much information to apply. Thanks for putting it together, great work !!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Appreciate the feedback, thanks!

[@nikitayarko]

Great summary! Thank you Tyler

[@c4hp.]

Glad you enjoyed it! 🤘

[@lucasleroux5981]

Good Content !!! 🤩 Thank you to share your knowledge 🙏

[@GregMu]

Excellent video! Thanks for putting this out and distilling so much info in one place! Can you point to research showing that hypertrophy slows contractile speed in the shortterm. Super interesting concept...

[@c4hp.]

Here's a few references. So people don't thin i'm making this shit up (which they do, which is whack af). Ross, S. A., & Wakeling, J. M. (2016). Muscle shortening velocity depends on tissue inertia and level of activation during submaximal contractions. Biology Letters, 12(6), 20151041 Nagano, A., & Komura, T. (2003). Longer moment arm results in smaller joint moment development, power and work outputs in fast motions. Journal of Biomechanics, 36(11), 1675-1681. Widrick, J. J., Stelzer, J. E., Shoepe, T. C., & Garner, D. P. (2002). Functional of human muscle fibers after short-term resistance exercise training. American Journal of Physiology-Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative Physiology, 283(2), R408-R416

[@tracecarrasco3872]

Great video - thanks for all the work you put into this

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for the feedback. Please share and subscribe.

[@theexcelord86]

Hello, I'm not sure I got the last section right. Are 3 sets of the finger curling and yielding supposed to be done as a warm up for a climbing session ? or as a warm up for a strength training session ? Also you qualify it as a "finger warm up pt1 & 2", but it's actually the whole strength training session for the fingers isn't it ? or it it just a warm up and then you do a classic strength finger train session as described in your next video (3-5 sets, 3-5 reps, 80%intensity, 3 min rest)

[@jeancammas2134]

Loved this video! thanks for the info man ;)

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you so much! What was your biggest takeaway??

[@AndrewAltman-l9l]

I wish I could like this twice.

[@c4hp.]

Thanks. Share it w two friends then.

[@stagiestpython7762]

This is so weird… I felt like your transition boulder looked really familiar, and when I paused to look, it just so happened to be the first outdoor v1 I ever sent. Such a small world and what a coincidence that this video just so happened to show up on my recommended… I feel like I’m in the matrix lmao 😂 Donner Lake has such beautiful climbs

[@dankeogh7926]

Great video

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you! Please share with your friends!

[@bongosock]

I like the idea of using the curling method for strength training my fingers: for all the reasons you said, but also because I think that keeping the joints and tendons moving is just a better way of training. I imagine that it would keep the connective tissue better lubricated, and also better supplied with nutrients.

[@Liftsmcgee]

Remember, the "curling" method is not "through range of motion". It is an overcoming isometric with the directionality to "curl the fingers". Moving joints certainly gain the benefits you described, but loading the fingers and adding weight to them can be risky for the pulleys. Full range of motion fingers curls may be best with very light loads, like a small band, for a warm-up start, etc. but not with high loads.

[@GucciFeet]

my gym as a few hangboards in the gym and what i do is i use them like a sprayboard. challenging myself campusing from rung to rung. Would that help with coordination and build finger strength?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Not really, the coordination gained will only be towards that unique "exercise". And the movements are too chaotic and fast to be strength training. You need to load heavy and slow.

[@DavidEller-c7f]

Thanks for the video. Really nice production! Look forward to more! 1. Thanks for the explanation of full ROM finger curling being maybe a bad idea due to pulley friction - always wondered why heavy finger rolls on the bar bothered me! 2. How do you see this playing out long term for gains? I have always understood max strength to be largely neurological recruitment and connective tissue adaptations rather than getting bigger/more muscles. But when we max out our neurological and connective tissue adaptations over a few cycles, what levers are left to pull? I always assumed the next step would be back to hypertrophy and then swap back to max strength and power to train up the larger muscle, but I'm getting the feeling hypertrophy may not play as much of a role? 3. I'd love to see your talon grip set-up in more detail and how one might choose a setup based on hand size, etc.

[@intrnal]

I'd like to see some talon set ups as well. I've rigged a few variations up but always curious to see other people's.

[@c4hp.]

Will show it in the next video. Stay tuned

[@verenak.9565]

Hi, thank for this very informative video! When should I train? I'm bouldering since 8 years, and my level is around 7a/7a+. I have good finger strength, but want to improve it. I didn't do a lot of fingerstrenghttraining next to bouldering, sometimes hangboarding. Would it be a good idea to do this training on an extraday, or could I practise it before a training session? My thoughts are that the following session would not be at maximumpower..thank you for answering my questions, Verena

[@Liftsmcgee]

The easiest place to do it is 15-20 minutes before you start climbing. Its the end of the warm-up and beginning of climbing. Maybe 2-3 sets of 5-6 reps of strength work. That is enough to get you strong but not enough to interfere with climbing. You can do in on a separate day as well and bump up the sets a little bit. But, you should shoot for at least 1-2 days of complete finger rest per week.

[@saiyanveg]

Thanks uncle Tyler

[@c4hp.]

😆

[@nailujm4339]

Thanks for a such a great video!!. In your experience, what percent approximately of yielding peak load is equivalent to 1MR?

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for your question, I typically use 85% of the peak force. The next video, out in a week or two, will demonstrate that well. 🤘

[@BadCrimper]

Just bought a Tindeq. How often would you train your fingers like this?

[@fedeccine]

Hi Tyler and team, I just bought my Tindeq Progressor and did my first test on the pulling down and curling up style. I’m a heavy (by climbing standards) climber, 194 lbs. in shape and id consider myself a strong intermediate climber. V5 at the gym, projecting some V6s. There’s about a 30 lbs difference between my pulling down numbers and my weight. So my question is, if I follow this protocol and use the described methods as my warm up before the small edge training and the climbing session, I would obtain strength gains from this combined training session in a 4-6 week period of time? What about progressive overload? Is that obtained basically by climbing more and harder things? Obviously I want to focus on climbing and obtaining the coordination On the climbing wall, but a 30 lbs difference seems quite a lot and i know the weight talk is a sensitive subject in today’s climate. Should i focus on using this protocol while simultaneously decreasing my weight in order to achieve a 1 arm hang equivalent to my body weight or more? Hope this makes sense I feel like i’m rambling!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Hey there! Coach Collin here, I’ll let Tyler drop his answer here too, but I’ll give you my 2 cents. I think irregardless of what you weigh, the goal should be consistent strength training at the described appropriate intensities for life. Strength training is meant to increase your strength and resiliency to climbing, and allow you to recover quicker and express skills better, not necessarily to “one arm…”. There are many things to work on before one “needs” to lose weight, and that conversation is best with a nutritionist, RD, or MD, depending on where you live. So, strength train for the benefits it provides in performance and injury prevention and ability to climb more (that’s how we really get better). And thennnn, if weight loss is appropriately in the cards, no harm in doing them both. Just as long as one understands the goals of each. Hope that helps!

[@sergioecheverria3114]

Great! very informative and helpful!

[@c4hp.]

Glad you think so!

[@StefanClimbs]

For optimal transfer of training or testing, the muscle function should be matched to the intended skill. I think for climbing, concentric contraction (like in the finger curl) of the lower arm muscles is the least relevant. Isometric and eccentric contractions make much more sense.

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thus proving the point of the video…”isometrics and eccentrics make much more sense” isometrics are divided into yielding (eccentric-like) and overcoming (concentric-like). Better understanding how to maximize each quality of isometric improves training. Without any intention behind “concentric-like” contractions (isometrics), you’d never hold on to the wall… This is further explained in video 2 :)

[@StefanClimbs]

@@Liftsmcgee Thank you for your reaction and introduction to yielding and overcoming isometrics. However I don't understand your point. My point is that it is obvious that a finger curl is a concentric contraction that almost never takes place on the wall. What does this has to do with yielding/overcoming isometrics?

[@Liftsmcgee]

@@StefanClimbs because an overcoming isometric is the “finger curl” we are talking about. The fingers are “curling” into the edge (even though no range of motion is occurring) making it an overcoming, concentric-like contraction. Everytime you actively “grab a hold” on a wall, you are doing this

[@FreshClipMedia]

what are the advantages of isometric curls as opposed to concentric contractions using classic 3-5 principles and free weights?

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for your question. The literal curling motion under load adds a lot of shear stress to the annular pulleys, especially the lowering (eccentric). In addition, that’s even less similar to how we use the fingers when climbing.

[@Erik_Norseman]

Does your recommendation to train finger strength like this vary based on experience? Would this be more appropriate for someone who has been fingerboarding for years and has plateaued vs someone who is new to fingerboarding and seems to still be improving just from hanging on progressively smaller edges?

[@c4hp.]

Given that the stimulus is more muscular, and the edge recommendations are larger, I think it would be fine for beginners as well.

[@dannym8015]

I'll add another thanks for the video! The one thing I'm left wondering is why the recommendation to complete both the curling and pulling methods at the end as part of the finger training protocol? If they give the same effect, which I may be mistaken in thinking is what you said, then why do both? Could I purely do the curling and expect the same gains as purely doing the pulling, or expect the same gains as doing a mix of both... Hopefully that makes some semblance of sense.

[@Liftsmcgee]

Appreciate you watching! They will have different effects: The "pulling" targeting the total tissue tolerance ability and the "curling" tareting more muscle and less "connective tisse elastic help". Both are great and used at the end of a warm up to "check all the preparedness boxes" before you start grabbing holds.

[@georgebieker]

Im interested in doing a concentric curl/lift on the tension block but with a weight stack and going from openhand to full crimp position as one rep. I already do recruitment pulls but thinking that the full ROM from open (or half) to full crimp might translate well to "reeling it in" aon the wall and simultaneously building strength in the fingers themselves. Thoughts Tyler?

[@Liftsmcgee]

I’ll let Tyler give the thoughts too, but we normally don’t recommended high intensity curls through range of motion because of the increased friction created in the pulleys. Although your logic is there with what happens on the wall. Perhaps the better alternative is just the overcoming isometric that moves through trivial amounts of range of motion but still possesses the concentric-like adaptations and theoretical carry over

[@georgebieker]

This makes sense. I guess I was thinking that the overcoming isomertric would hit a "wall" earlier than the muscle but that isn't technically right. Since either exercise is going to come up against a personal limit that would have to be surmounted using other techniques that may build hypertrophy in the forearms, etc. i.e. Strength before power. @@Liftsmcgee

[@bbcrock2134]

This video is sick. What are your thoughts on doing the curls with weights on a loading pin rather than a tindeq? Seems like it would also work and could be a good option for those who don't have a tindeq? Thanks!

[@sneasing6050]

Would love some more concrete recommendations/guidance (obviously will differ based on individuals) on the frequency of strength training regarding fingers. Would it be optimal to train in a similar frequency to powerlifting or other strength based sports or is it better to reduce frequency to reduce injury risk (overuse etc)? Thanks in advance!

[@Liftsmcgee]

The dumb but most accurate answer (as you noted the individuality) is it depends. General guidelines stemming from the National Strength and Conditioning Association speak to about 2-3x per week. If you are very new, the intensity can be a bit lower (50-70%) but If you are experienced, it bumps up to 80% as a minimum. And in our second video we go over some example sessions! It really doesn’t have to take too long. It’s more about minimum effective intensity

[@sneasing6050]

cheers

[@MrSoapBoxKing2]

Thanks for this video learned a lot of valuable information on finger strength training here. I was curious thought maybe i missed it or maybe not, should I not be doing weighted hangs on a hangboard and instead be doing Finger Curl Standings to gain more strength for the fingers?

[@c4hp.]

The next video will further extrapolate on that question. Stay tuned.

[@outkastbowiecollaborationi6963]

What’s the small black no grip used? I’m familiar with the Tension Block and the Tindeq but not familiar with the other no grip tools shown.

[@c4hp.]

headtotoe3d.com/?aff=3

[@jasoncapenecas5475]

Great vid and would like to know if that black uneven finger grip tool was a 3d printed tool or if purchased somewhere?

[@c4hp.]

Both

[@legouroumultifonctionsdufu2697]

What's the name and where can we find it ?

[@Unit43z]

Thanks for the video! When you say at the end the finger warm up is enough off the wall strength training for "most" rock climbers, who would this not be sufficient for?

[@c4hp.]

Someone doing a dedicated strength training block could do more during their non climbing training in a similar fashion.

[@dendrophile7883]

Is there a product you recommend for the ‘talon grip’ if not a specific product any special considerations for the size of the sphere?

[@c4hp.]

Atomic ninja balls for good. I’m using a grippul with the tension hold on it in the video.

[@thestarsof2012]

Thank you sir

[@Liftsmcgee]

No no, thank you!

[@mikegaunt837]

Would one anticipate being able to lift the 'same weight' with one hand when adding weight compared to when they deadhang? For example, if I'm using a hangboard with an added weight of +90lbf at a total body weight of 186 pounds, which is 1.48 times my body weight (1.48xBW), would I expect to be able to perform a one-arm deadlift with 138 pounds (138x2 = 90+186)? Or given the differences in recruitment and mechanics, there may be a deviation??

[@Liftsmcgee]

If your hangboard example is 1 handed, then most likely yes with a little bit of deviation in coordination of the movement, edge size, arm angle, etc. which will change the number a little bit. But, the fingers can only “see” the load. Not the exercise that is being performed. So, if you have a yielding isometric test that says the fingers can yield 100lbs per hand, it should matter tooo much where that action is happening. I’ve personally seen a little more weight achieved in the deadlift style because it’s less complicated for the body.

[@mikegaunt837]

@@Liftsmcgee sorry had some typos. Holding edge size constant - will my two arm deadhang total weight equal the sum of both single arm deadlifts? or will they be different given the different mechanics, I guess this would be akin to barbell bench max vs dumbell bench max, thanks!

[@c4hp.]

Will cover that in the next video

[@maurofughi]

Thanks for the great video! I have been listening to your latest podcasts (with Neely and on the struggle) a few times to pull these concept together, I was out climbing today and coming back home I find this surprise video that literally brings everything together! One question on strength training/program as I understand adding the tindeq/curling (overcoming isometric) to every climbing day warmup, but what about the other (non-climbing) days where I normally have scheduled strength sessions? Until now I was doing just the "old" max hangs protocol, but planning to add overcoming isometric sessions for both, max strength (recruitment) and strength endurance. Hopefully it still makes sense to have those off-the-wall strength sessions in addition to the warmup you describe? Or would you suggest differently? I have been climbing and training for several years. Thanks!

[@c4hp.]

Hey there, thanks for watching the video and your comment. I think doing additional strength training for Recruitment and stiffness, off-the-wall during normal strength training workout should be fine. Best case scenario is to keep the contractions short and auto regulate settling based on force output. Cheers

[@tonimartin681]

Scientific explanation mixed with very practical training issues....Congrats. Thanks a lot for this so great video !!!!

[@kevtron82]

If I'm at home and unable to make a standing base like you have, would it be sufficient to just put the strap the portable board has under my foot? I'd also love to see a video about using those small boards for pinch strength :)

[@c4hp.]

I’d probably stand in a 2x4, broomstick, weight plate at the gym, etc with a sling around it. Pulling against the feet hard isn’t comfortable at max effort. Something more firm works better.

[@ekrofto]

Is it necessary to isolate movement only in dip and pip and don‘t move in mcp when we perform curl test?

[@c4hp.]

It’s great you mention that. It’s hard to curl at the mcp with a flat edge, but if you in-cut the edge a bit (by adjusting the cheers), then it becomes more accessible. I do like the idea of having the mcp joint slightly flexed as well for force generation though. Great point

[@FreefromTyranny]

Been doing the finger curling method deadlift style for 2 weeks. I have the pitch 6 force board. Im basically following your example protocol from one of your podcasts with Neely. Excited to see how this goes in combination with on the wall training and then sending some projects (I mostly sport climb) this fall!!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Love to hear that and good luck with your projects! Even moving into season, the warm-up protocol that we describe in the video, especially using your forceboard, will be great to maintain and monitor your strength!

[@FreefromTyranny]

@@Liftsmcgee I’ve been doing the warmup routine every session inside and outside as best i can. I also do very light hanging or pulling every day (about 30% of my Max) . The deadlift curls i do 2x per week, same day i go to the gym but separated by 6-8 hours

[@Liftsmcgee]

@@FreefromTyranny your system is on point! Psyched to see your results!

[@FreefromTyranny]

@@Liftsmcgee thanks, and good to hear im moving in the right direction. Ill be switching to repeaters with the finger curl method in hopes of improving for fall sport climbing. 3-4 weeks strength, 1 week chill , 3-4 weeks repeaters, then reevaluate and move forward 😀

[@Liftsmcgee]

@@FreefromTyranny and depending what you need, strength vs. endurance, the curl repeaters plus your force gauge will be perfect for your goals. It’s great to see you plan so though out 👊🏻

[@Jakaloptor123]

Thanks for the vid! With regards to the protocol suggested, over what time frame would you expect to see an increase in finger strength in a trained individual?

[@c4hp.]

Pretty quick actually. Especially If you’ve never tried to isolate the finger flexors before.

[@kylelenton]

Anyone catch what the plate is called that he is using to mount the Tension ball for the talon grip? And if it is the 4" or 5" tension ball. I'm hoping to experiment with this setup.

[@Liftsmcgee]

It is one of the beastfingers plates I believe. And whatever tension ball fits your hand best is the one to get. I also tell clients they can find a kettlebell that fits their hand and flip it upside down. You can hang weight off the handle if need be

[@JJ-zo4xs]

The only position that seems viable at my gym is the seated position by the tree, but I'm a bit confused how this setup works. Is it similar to the Edge Pull Deadlift Standing version? where I push with my legs and pull with my back like on a rowing machine until my fingers give out?

[@Liftsmcgee]

You can do both. It’s probably easiest to do the push with your legs version but if you get the setup right, you can also do the finger curl. To level out some balance you can also lay completely on your back which should make the curl a little easier

[@filippobagnato8322]

Hi doc, very clear and helpful video! You mentioned that there is a considerable difference of output strength whether we use one position or the other (pull/curl). Does this mean that, as we produce more force with bigger muscles (like shoulders), we would expect a higher strength/weight ratio when performing hangs (like on a MVC test) than when lifting weights with a crimp from the ground (in that case summing right and left hand output and dividing by the weight)? Now, they are very different tests and exercises (that, in principle, should yield similar adaptations), but this is often my explanation to why I do not perform incredibly well on hangboard tests (I have a MVC-7 of 92 kg (66 kg bw + 26 kg added) on a 20 mm edge, which is apparently on the low tail of the distribution given the climbing and bouldering grade that I usually climb on (13a/b, V8)), but I do perform well lifting weights from the ground with the same edge size. I've always thought that finger strength was not a weakness of mine so, given this discrepancy, I focused more on upper body strength and shoulder stability recently, always keeping a good base of finger training and climbing. Recently, I saw a significant improvement in my hangboard results, that were not accompanied by the same increase with a crimp block (improving, but lower in percentage and maybe also linked to an adaptation to an exercise that I do not perform often?). To bolster my hypothesis, I am now able to hang with one hand on a big edge (like 30/35 mm) in a very controlled way (no rotation and I can engage the shoulder), which is something that I could definitely not do before. I'm keen on re-testing and training more with the crimp block. Now you're convincing me to buy a Tindeq! Cheers, sorry for the very long comment, but your videos and podcasts always spark good discussions! 😄

[@c4hp.]

It really depends on the individual. My #'s pulling down or lifting up with my legs are the same. But my big pull muscle strength is pretty good. That's actually the primary "aha" moment I had with the difference. A slender female climber could not do a 20mm 1 arm hang, but has really strong fingers. My s/w was greater than hers with the pulling method, but my s/w ratio was lower than hers with the curling method. Regarding the adaptations to the fingers though, it shouldn't be too different. Hope that helps, but i'll be shooting a video on loading next.

[@Setarkos91]

Thanks for the comprehensive video. For off the wall finger strength training beyond the warm up routine. Do you leave it at only 1-2 max reps? I recall an older article suggesting 5 sets of 3 reps at max. I'll post the link once I find it. Or am I missing something?

[@Liftsmcgee]

The protocol in the video describes probably the minimum effective dose that would be useful for a lot of the population. Once you become an experiences climber and trainer, you may certainly need to add reps and sets. We will cover that in a future video detailing strength training sessions themselves. But, 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps is a great place to start!

[@Setarkos91]

@@Liftsmcgee Thanks, that makes sense. After hip surgery I have no on-the-wall time at the moment. So it feels like 5 sets of 3 reps twice a week isn't that bad actually. Or would you say, that's overdoing it still?

[@HoodlumBlog]

Thank you for the great video, that's really informative and a nice format!! Just two fast question: 1) do you think that 3/4 set of progressive curl it's enough before doing a max effort curl or it's better to do some other finger warm up before? Because usually i need much longer before feel safe to perform a max effort curl/pull (but maybe it's just a psychological bias and my finger could already be ready) 2) how much rest between sets? Thank you 🙏😁

[@c4hp.]

It really depends on you and your "regular" loading habits. If you need more warming up before the finger loading, then that is fine. The suggestion is what works well for me, but there inter-individual differences for sure.

[@mikekelly6603]

Thanks. How many days per week do we need this type of finger strength training? Right now I am doing 2 long trad(easy/moderate) climbing days and one day per week of strength training(including finger training with lifting pin+tension block). Thoughts?

[@c4hp.]

You could bump it up to twice per week or also include it each day before trad climbing in your warmup.

[@Negrurafresca]

Okay I have a question. So with max effort on bigger edges we are able to produce more force which means more recruitment on the finger flexors. However, wouldn’t you have the same recruitment levels and muscle force production when trying your max on a small edge? (let’s say 10mm). Wouldn’t the muscle create the same activation and force but the forces don’t transfer to the edge or tindeq because of the biomechanics of the fingers? Meaning, muscles produce the same force, but the lever is different, so the output force is different. Now will that be true if your pulleys and joins are strong enough to support the load (so they are not the limiting factor).

[@Liftsmcgee]

A very insightful question, and I’ll let Dr. Nelson expand further. The smaller edge just greatly increases the demand for skill/coordination to apply the force effectively. Also, the shape of the fingers would change potentially (half to full crimp) in order to achieve friction needed for 10mm/small holds, placing the joints in positions that are just less optimal for producing force (mid range vs end range and force/length curve) which is which on the smaller edges we refer to that as positional stiffness. It’s like building specific range of motion tolerance/stiffness via the exposure. But, for most, making the edges a little bigger and shading toward that’s half/open hand position just makes life easier (on the joints as well) to work hard enough to meet the minimum effort demands to increase our max output over time.

[@c4hp.]

Hey there, that's a questions i've wrestled with for years. I think the easiest way to think explain it is by measuring the pull down on 2 different edges. A 30mm, and 10mm. The 30mm will always produce more force than the 10mm. So, there is no way that you're producing the same force on the 10mm. But it's more important (for most climbers) to be able to load/move on the 10mm edges. But the adaptation to loading on the 10mm is one of gaining coordination. We want to use the smallest amount of 30mm max effort (recruitment), to gain capacity to practice more on the 10mm, but on the climbing wall in most cases. Make sense?

[@Negrurafresca]

@@c4hp. yes it makes total sense, so the easiest way to recruit the muscles should be the best option. (Eliminating any other variables like coordination). Then the on wall training should do the coordination part for small edges. Awesome! Thank you for your answers and that video 🔥👌🏽

[@c4hp.]

@@Negrurafresca I mean, that makes the most sense to me based on my current understanding of the strength training research.

[@paulgaras2606]

So is what you’re suggesting here an approach that relies more on system boards and spray walls rather than hanging and lifting with your fingers?

[@c4hp.]

Definitely. We will shoot more videos on that coming soon.

[@thebionicclimber9187]

What about just curling weight with your fingers ? Does it work ? Or using a scale ?

[@Liftsmcgee]

It “works” but it’s usually very funky on the fingers. Could be good with low intensity things to start a warm up but for max strength training, the curl into the scale is much more practical

[@thebionicclimber9187]

@@Liftsmcgee Ok thank's. What about tool like entralpi ? harder to setup but it work i guess.

[@c4hp.]

I don't generally suggest a really heavy curl because it's quite stressful to the pulleys. The annular pulleys "lock" to the tendons when loaded (tendon locking mechanism). This could create quite a bit of friction and potential to irritate them if doing a dramatic full range. That being said, a little concentric movement should be no problem (mostly joint movement). Also, heavy rolls on a bar is not the same thing/stress I'm specifically referring to an edge.

[@theexcelord86]

How long are you supposed to rest between the warm up sets ?

[@JonAlexander]

what do you recommend when your 25mm peak load recruitment curls start to plateau? would it be worth going into a hypertrophy block if you are not in season?

[@c4hp.]

yeah, that'd be fine. You could also do so by switching the stimulus (hanging, lifting, pulling, etc.).

[@khakicam5400]

Thanks for your efforts to move the training game forward. Hooper's Beta mentioned a possible downside to finger curls being the loaded friction on the pulleys. Do you have any thoughts about that?

[@c4hp.]

See my comment below. What I’m not referring to is a full range of motion finger curl. An overcoming style isometric is more concentric like, but not a true concentric. I agree with what hoopers beta is saying.

[@khakicam5400]

@@c4hp. thanks very much. I've been doing those exercises since you first described it on Neely's podcast a while back and it feels great. Thanks again

[@RodrigoGonzalez-eg7rs]

Thanks for this great video! Simple question: how much time do you rest between sets and between part 1 and 2?

[@c4hp.]

Same time between sets of either. 2-4 minutes should be plenty of time.

[@nicolascormier5478]

Just started doing those 6 month later... I'm at 47kg peak force and around 35kg with the finger curl. My finger curl went up fast but my peak force remain constant , this is due to coordination in the curling method and not strength gain I guess?

[@nicolascormier5478]

So the on the wall training can be replicated with a repeater protocol ; you climb super slow so the contraction speed don't really matter? (7 sec on / 1 sec off x6) to mimic climbing? Can you get coordination adaptation if you do full-crimp no hang instead of on the wall protocol?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Speaking to the on-wall timing, yeah it can be that simple! You want to keep the hand moves relatively low so that with each you are primarily actively gripping the hold and not “losing the grip” like when a half crimp falls into open hand. And mixing in some full crimps off the wall makes sense to sprinkle in to create that specific stiffness in the fingers in those end ranges. You can then add the cherry on top with some full crimp style on wall coordination, as long as you as smart with the volume.

[@SileDevil]

isnt hanging a more complete exercise? besides finger strength you also get arm strength and endurance

[@Liftsmcgee]

Strength and endurance are defined by different intensity or percentages of max effort. So, targeting one is not targeting the other...However, getting stronger does help with endurance by improving max effort capabilities thus making previous efforts easier to do (better endurance is better economy sometimes). Hanging will more often speak to a yielding isometric more than anything. If we were talking squats, hanging would be the wall-sit. Hanging is a useful tool, but in the video we are simply describing exactly what is going on in hanging and other finger training exercises, principally so that the individual can make training decisions based on available resources.

[@wojciechkoscinski3309]

Watching the video for the third time to let it all sink in 😂 Amazing content! Since I tend to get injured quite easily a question came to my mind: A sample finger strength training recommended by Dr Tyler Nelson is to first test your max curling strength (using Tindeq) and then do sets at around 80-85% of that max. What do you think about potential injury risks associated with "testing max strength" a couple of times per week? I recently asked this question to a lattice coach and his response was that you should only test max at the start of your training block and not more than a couple of times per year due to high finger injury risk. However, their way of testing is different (7s hangs till failure so way more volume and eccentric loading). Thank you 👍

[@c4hp.]

There is an incredibly low risk (nothing has zero risk) for getting injured with that method. I do it every day I climb.

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for watching. Next video coming out this week!

[@JussiTaka-so8xr]

In terms of developing pure strength, isn’t on-the-wall far more superior (let’s say you’d do 3x3s holds for couple of sets on the smallest holds possible while still engaging lower body on the foot holds) also because it requires greater neural drive when performing whereas lifting from the floor is a single-joint exercise which doesn’t require it that much? For example when building stronger legs you’d choose squat over leg press even though you can probably get higher loads with leg press 🤔

[@c4hp.]

I like the idea of doing 3 x 3s holds on the wall for multiple sets as well, but those adaptations are coordination, not recruitment. The smaller edge sizes don't produce more force in the finger flexors. This has been demonstrated in the research on different edge sizes, hence the need for both (off the wall and on the wall). They are perceived as harder because the joint angles are a different, and sometime painful, skill. Gainig recruitment off the wall requires more intensity than climbing ever uses, then gaining the coordination on the wall becomes more accessible. Regarding the squat and leg press, for recruitment in the quads, leg press is superior. So, it really depends on the athletes goal. Thanks for watching.

[@JussiTaka-so8xr]

@@c4hp. thanks! 👌

[@LuisRojas-yo6jd]

Nice video! But I have a question: working with an intensity of 50-60%, what do you focus on? Endurance or maximum strength? Thank you so much. Greetings from Chile !

[@c4hp.]

HI Luis. I'm not sure in what context you're referring to. If you're referring to the warmup 50-60% is simply a lower intensity stimulus before the harder working sets. If you're referring to whole sessions at 50-60%, then you'd be in endurance territory.

[@MonoMan1]

I'd disagree that strength training won't directly improve your climbing, unless you're an experience climber who's already "strong enough". Currently I am often unable to top a climb due to a particular hold or move that I'm not able to hold enough of my weight on, or pull enough, to make it to the next move. Usually crimps. If my fingers were stronger I'd be able to top these climbs. Direct improvement. Sure, sometimes technique could be improved which may also allow me to get past a move, but this isn't always the case and doesn't take away from the directness of improvement.

[@c4hp.]

You're missing the point. Off the wall strength training will not. Your coordination practice on smaller and harder holds, in combination with finger strength training will. You can't have one without the other. Stay tuned for further videos, and thanks for watching.

[@homayoonf]

My non-dominant hand is notably weaker than the other, How should we train each hand in such cases? How should we address this imbalance issue? Thanks again.

[@c4hp.]

Just train both hand to its own max and see where it goes. It’s not uncommon to have an asymmetry, assuming there’s no underlying pain, in the limbs. Training each hand at its own max is the best you can do. Maybe they’ll be more symmetric, maybe they won’t. Keep us posted on your progress.

[@homayoonf]

that makes sense, I’ll keep you all posted 🤞🙏✋🏼

[@mattysp2]

I'm slightly confused as to what constitutes a set in your finger strength program. I'll use part 1 as an example 3 seconds on, 5 seconds off 3 seconds on, 5 seconds off, 3 seconds on, 5 seconds off 3 seconds on, 5 seconds off Would the above be 1 set for one hand? And then when you say 1-2 max effort sets That means the above protocol for one to two sets yes? Not just one to two max pulls? But 1-2 max sets of the full thing Ie Max sets training are as follows 3seconds on 5 seconds off x4? Thankyou for the free educational content and your help

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you for the good question! And yes, to start off the “part 1 warmup/strength” 4x3s on 5s off. As you increase the intensity to the max effort round you could continue that idea but you can also feel it out. Maybe at your max effort rounds you only need 1 set of 3x 3s on 5s off, etc. you don’t have to be super strict about 4 sets at every stage

[@natalierodriguez1812]

"A larger muscle can produce more force, although at a slightly lower speed." I don't think that is quite right. Hypertrophy training increases muscle fibers all around but favors fast twitch muscle fibers. At least this is what I understand to be true.

[@c4hp.]

Yes, that is correct at the individual fiber level. But fast twitch fibers to be used in a sport also need to be trained at the speed of the sport. An example is only finger boarding would not increase your power output for climbing. You definitely increase fast fibers, but they still have to be trained at Speed to realize the adaptation you’re looking for.

[@sheesh9215]

where can we get the black hold with the variable finger length grip seen at 9:52? kzbin.info/www/bejne/nn_Lq3lnjdiKhtU

[@Liftsmcgee]

That is the MetacarpEdge from HeadToToe3D. They have a website

[@JeremySchaub512]

I'm also curious about this. looks like the Tension Ergo Edge is similar

[@94jmh]

🦍🔥🦍

[@justinjakimiak1998]

What training board is that in the background?

[@c4hp.]

Grasshopper

[@Buffalo93]

Some of the rationale behind this method seems to be unclear. First, why exactly no-hangs (e.g. 2 seconds with heavy load not allowing for more than 5 reps) are worse? It seems to me that lifting the weight is an easier way to engage muscles, as whether you succeed or not give you feedback. I'm afraid that it's harder to really try hard, if you trying to move something immovable. Then, the same argument as against hangboarding being non-functional could be used against unleveled edge. You engage fingers evenly, but this is not what typically happens on the wall.

[@c4hp.]

Why hang longer. From a recruitment standpoint, recruitment plateaus at 1.5-2 seconds for most people. The extra 3 seconds is only creating fatigue, not more recruitment. In addition, slower contractions are less likely to promote tendon stiffness. Not being able to "try hard" is a learned thing. If you had visual feedback, there is no doubt (science supported) that having feedback is helpful. Fingerboard training, unlevel edge training, lifting things, pulling on things etc. are not climbing. They all are equally viable methods for increasing strength in the fingers. You'll maybe need to re-watch the part differentiating eccentric-like vs concentric-like movements. That is where the distinction matters. Cheers and thanks for watching.

[@corsaa_]

i dont think janja does any of these

[@Liftsmcgee]

Not...yet... on a serious note though, lots of things "work" for training and climbing success. Janja is a sample from the top 0.0001% of climbers this world will ever see. Still valuable to study but not applicable to the majority of the population. Like comparing us to Lebron James or Usain Bolt.

[@Whiteblooder]

Janja still does a lot of strength, coordination and antagonist work off the wall though.

[@Liftsmcgee]

@@Whiteblooder KZbin just only shows her awesome climbs, but I’m sure there’s tons of hard work behind the scenes