How to Test Finger Strength (and what you should do with the results!)

[@matthewpetrinitz5764]

Thanks for putting TONS of work into this video & making it so easily digestible, Tyler!!!

[@hugmynutus]

Thanks for this. Really appreciate the in-depth details instead of the vague "vibes" a lot of people offer.

[@Liftsmcgee]

KZbin allows us to really get into the detail which is a refreshing difference than the Instagram world. We still do IG but this medium is really nice!

[@LukeBrandenburg]

Perfekt was looking forward to thid video. Just got the tindex yesterday👍🔝

[@Liftsmcgee]

Excellent! It’s a wonderful tool! Let us know how you like it with the testing and repeater work!

[@jpleddington]

Really clear and helpful. Watched yesterday and then set it up this morning. Within roughly 30 minutes my wife and I had warmed up, tested our 1RM, and done 5 solid working sets. Thanks, Tyler, Collin, and the c4hp team! Now off to some afternoon bouldering!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Love this! Happy to help!

[@JoshuaPace]

Thanks, Tyler. All good advice that I've experienced in my own climbing journey. Finger training is super important (I do it most of the year in some capacity) but if it's the primary component of a person's program while neglecting actual climbing, they are not going to see the results on the wall that they hope to see. Looking forward to more videos

[@c4hp.]

Totally agree!

[@jeancammas2134]

Great work man and super clear and useful information. I truly appreciate this content and would love to see the next episode!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you so much for the feedback! Video 3 has dropped, we hope you enjoy!

[@theexcelord86]

So you're saying that JUST doing the warm up before a climbing session, and not doing any finger training session specifically (with 3-5 sets and 3 mins of rest in between), is enough finger strength training in combination with coordiantion training drill ?

[@Tee_oh_em]

Came here to ask exactly the same question. Amazing content as usual guys!

[@christophersieben4617]

Love the content! What do you think about climbing after lifting/hangboarding? And what do you think about optimal loading for optimal gains? A lot of people suggest 90% of max. You go with 80-85% is there a significant difference? Also what do you think about holding time? 10 sec. 7sec. Or 3? I habe heard new studies showed 3 sec is just enough for strenght gains and up to 7 dont bring much more benefits. Would love to hear your opinion. Thanks again for such great and free content :)

[@Liftsmcgee]

I don’t think one will find much difference between an 80-90% load. Though 90 and 90+ too frequently may jump the “cost of work” with some extra stress/fatigue depending on what you do. Hence, our recommendation of the minimum effective dose of ~80%. For strength, definitely 3-5s because peak force can only occur in that time frame (due to fatigue onset) so a 10s hold can “never be a strength duration”. The hold is too long to see high efforts that stimulate “true” strength change. And you can climb after lifting and hanging as long as you balance it. The “hanging” should be like what we describe in video 1 which is just 1-2 sets of something before a climb. To stack a “full” hang session in front of a climbing session would just be too competing with fatigue

[@LSDerek]

Any chance you could make a pdf of this protocol?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Let me see what I can do! Could be a nice visual alongside the video!

[@chazott]

This is superb! Question, what about training of the MCP joint and wrist joints that are crucial to sloper strength? Is there another grip tool or method to use for these?

[@Liftsmcgee]

The talon does well, but you could take a similar approach to something like a wrist wrench connected in the same way. You can measure your “pull” and “curl” and could run with the numbers and use the positions to train.

[@Liftsmcgee]

But, for a full open hand style training, it could get tricky to create a setup

[@die_hertz]

Can't wait for the next video

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you! We are psyched on all of this too! What was your favorite thing about this video??

[@die_hertz]

I like how it basically is a handbook which gives setup and steps for every training method. Tindeq is of course an important prerequisite, but having it out of the way it basically is the "magic pill" of finger training, given you show up to the training day in, day out :) Currently waiting on my tindeq

[@MrFightgravity]

Brilliant video. 👏

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thank you!! What was your favorite part?

[@raftaman1]

Did you say that testing a yielding isometric for 7 to 10 seconds (7 to 10 second max hang) increases endurance more that strength? Are you sure that's correct? 1:14 The paper you reference doesn't seem to say what you suggest. Although it does say that training at 80% of max does significantly improve strength as well as endurance.

[@c4hp.]

It demonstrates that the longer duration efforts improve stamina and strength, but not as high a strength adaptation as the higher intensity group.

[@raftaman1]

​@@c4hp. Thanks for the quick response, I appreciate it! Yes it showed a 1.9% difference which seems negligible considering the limitations of the study (sample size, group distribution, external stimuli etc). The F80 group made a 12.4% increase in strength in 4 weeks which is excellent by any standard. Given that the endurance test was done at 80% this would show an ability to maintain at an intensity closer to your maximum for longer, such as on a boulder or through the crux of a route. Hence it seems like this might be more beneficial for training as you are essentially training 2 areas with 1 protocol, thus reducing overall fatigue by eliminating the need for a separate endurance workout. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Edit: actually, thinking about it, this paper doesn't really compare to your recommended protocols at all as you are also training at 85%, and keeping the time under tension similar by performing multiple reps, essentially making them cluster sets. Hence your suggested protocols are also likely going to positively influence endurance in a similar way to the F80 group protocol.

[@c4hp.]

This is by no means a direct comparison to what I’m suggesting. The reference was simply to show that there is evidence showing that short duration efforts will increase strength. It’s not the only one. Thanks for watching and being attentive.

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for being so attentive.@@raftaman1 This was the citation I meant to be included as well. Devise M, Lechaptois C, Berton E, Vigouroux L. Effects of Different Hangboard Training Intensities on Finger Grip Strength, Stamina, and Endurance. Front Sports Act Living. 2022 Apr 12;4:862782. doi: 10.3389/fspor.2022.862782. PMID: 35498522; PMCID: PMC9039162.

[@raftaman1]

Ah okay, it's just that's not what you said. You said that 'finding a load of 7 to 10 seconds increases stamina more than peak force' This paper doesn't show that. Just to clarify, the F80 group are doing repeaters, so not really comparable to a 7 to 10 second max hang. The paper didn't look to explore the relationship between hang duration and adaptations, it looks to explore the relationship between intensity and adaptation. And as a consequence of this change in intensity the change in capacity for volume in the working sets. The F80 group did repeaters starting at 80% until they couldn't sustain 70% anymore, which is extremely similar to the endurance test, and very different to 7 to 10 second max hangs. This paper just shows that single bouts of efforts at a high intensity are good at increasing strength, but not endurance. And repeated bouts of effort at 80% until a threshold is not reached improves strength and endurance, much like your protocols described here. It *doesn't* show that max hangs are good for endurance, *or* that hangs of more than 6 seconds increase endurance.

[@grimpisme]

Thks for sharing your methods! Can we say that the era of more than 3" efforts is over in finger strength training?

[@Liftsmcgee]

I wouldn't say its "over" completely. The context matters. For "max strength", anything over 3-5s doesn't make too much sense, yes. But, perhaps 10s is the targeted capacity work for you, your specific climbing style, etc. and so maybe in an endurance/capacity cycle you may choose 10s to do repeaters with, etc. So, context still remains king.

[@grimpisme]

Totaly agree! Clusters are the future but 6" to 10" are still useful @@Liftsmcgee.

[@adriangabriel3219]

Great video! I have used your method for six months now and hit a plateau that I can't seem to overcome. I have tried different things for a while (changing from 4 finger half-crimp, to front/back three fingers, increasing number of sets but nothing helped me in increasing my one-rep max weight) What protocol do you recommend to surpass such a plateau?

[@Liftsmcgee]

What 1RM lift are you referring to? A yielding test (pull) or an overcoming test? (Curl)

[@c_healy]

This is awesome! Totally hyped on this stuff. Thanks for the education! I have 3 questions: Regarding auto regulation with the Tindeq. Are you stopping right after the first rep that isn’t at peak force or is there some sort of sign to look for before you get to that rep? In the video it showed 4 reps but they all looked equal. Am I missing something? It also mentioned ending each set when you lose the ability to produce peak force. Does this ever apply to the whole workout? Like what would indicate you not do another set? Or do you always just do a fixed number of sets? Do you suggest testing each session and basing the 85% on that, or test once at the beginning of a cycle and keep the 85% off that for the whole cycle?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Great questions! 1) the video was circles the peaks to draw attention to the target but was not a real set example where you see see the fall off. You could auto regulate until 1 of those peaks “struggled” to hit the 85% and then cut it off. But, 5-6 reps done at 85 without fall off is still a good training set

[@Liftsmcgee]

2) using it to identify when to “go home” is a great tool. Again, not every day has to be that way, you can just stick to 2-3 sets each session for life and see strength. Probably most useful week to week, day to day to see how you are feeling that day.

[@Liftsmcgee]

3) yes, and the tindeq has a “test max now” feature right before the repeaters to get day-to-day training. However, looking at a cycle of 3-5 weeks, etc. it’s nice to look back and see if your average “85%” increases, as well as your peak. But the day-to-day testing will allow to to work hard on days you can and back you off on fatigued days

[@tomholzapfel9698]

Quick question about the curling method: When curling your fingers, do you try to curl at the DIP joint, the PIP joint or both? For me it seems like I can generate way more force when trying to isolate on the PIP joint, instead of using the DIP as well. I also usually only put force through the PIP joint when hanging in a half crimp (and let the DIP bend itself backwards), and am wondering if that is normal or should be fixed.

[@c4hp.]

I’d say there is no “fix” to the dip joint bending backwards when you crimp. That’s normal for your hand. That’s not the intention of the curling method as much as bending at the pip joint. If you use the talon grip, though that has some dip joint flexion too. Thanks for watching!

[@MrLouisperrault]

Thanks for the great video. In the previous video you mention that the warm-up leading to max effort of both curling/pulling is probably enough finger training for most people. When should someone adopt this new protocol where you aim for the 80-85% max shown in this video?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Probably a bit of a feel out process? If you have a tindeq and are testing peak about 1x month at least you’ll notice when “warming up alone” is alongside a plateau. At that point adding another day or two of this should be the next step to increase your overal stimulus and break that plateau

[@MrLouisperrault]

@@Liftsmcgee Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. The newbie gains seem to be gone now. We will see if I see improvements over the next few weeks.

[@andremartins7503]

Hey Tyler. Amazing video🎉. Congratulations. Why do you think that using a 85%1RM as training load is better than 100% ? Wouldn t that be prefereble in terms of gains in recruitment ?

[@c4hp.]

It's a safer suggestion for youtube, but you certainly can, and I have. In addition, it's not entirely necessary to make 100% every effort to gain strength. 10 x 1 at 100% vs. 5 x 3 at 85%. the 5 x 3 would get you plenty strong by providing more signals to high threshold motor units.

[@andremartins7503]

@@c4hp. thank you so much for the answer Tyler 😃

[@lucaslangen1741]

@@c4hp. could you further explain why the 5x3 method would provide more signals to the HTMU? or do you have some papers or so you would suggest to read for this topic? Thank you !

[@lucaslangen1741]

is it because of the TUT in comparison to 1 second ? or are there more factors ?

[@chazott]

Another question, I've been doing "yielding" style isometric lifts with weight on a loading pin. I find that I can repeat my 1 rep max for around 6 reps, and repeat it for several sets. It sounds like it would be more common to have a higher single rep max and lower 6 rep max, but that's not really the case for me. But with this being the case, should I train with lower weight, like 85% as discussed even though I could do more?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Traditionally the 1RM and 6RM “expected differences” come from full range of motion tests. Perhaps the 1RM you choose + your work:rest is recoverable enough to repeat, appeared like a “6RM”. I’d say test it on a guage to see if it’s truly your max force? Also, the recommended 85% really refers to the minimum to elicit change. Some things are ok to train higher at times, like overcoming ISOs, but 80-85 gets the job done. It speaks to not having to “redline” your efforts all the time to get the same amount of change. Minimum effective dose stimulates growth while being mindful about fatigue and recovery

[@Slab_Justice_Warrior]

Are you familiar with the Juggernaut Method for powerlifting? It has it's pros and cons, but it can really be useful with this rep based type of training since it uses calculations to estimate your theoretical 1 rep max without ever testing it. It nicely combines progressive overload with periodization with the intention of avoiding plateaus. I have found it very useful to implement once a week with various grip types.

[@c4hp.]

Yes, I’m familiar. Would work fine for finger strength training, but have never tried myself or on my clients. I’ve always had access to strain gauges so I haven’t had the need. Thanks for watching.

[@lutherbrown8873]

gained +5kg on my arm lift 1RM since this video came out. thanks!

[@Liftsmcgee]

Thats awesome to hear!!!

[@garretehrick6137]

Hey Tyler! Quick question: I've done the pulling down method (one arm around 90 deg overhead) on a 20mm edge and I'm pretty close to 160lbs. Trying the dead lift style (not the curling in method, but the deadlift one) I'm hovering around 140lbs. Do you think this might be because I'm just not coordinated at this style yet? I feel like I'm very coordinated at what I was doing.

[@c4hp.]

It's a position/coordination thing. Climbers, in general, are really used to pulling down on things. The lifting from the floor takes some practice to get used to. But it's probably not "better" on the fingers, so stick with the pulling-down method.

[@JJ-zo4xs]

this might sound a bit too nitty gritty but could someone tell me what kind of hardware is used for the standing board with the anchor? I don’t live in the US and would like to google the parts to make it 😅

[@Liftsmcgee]

I use some plywood nailed into some 2x4s (cut to fit) and then you can use a climbing bolt as your center anchor!

[@andrewlaw822]

Great information as always! I’m just a bit confused with how to arrange the programme following the warmup protocol from the last vid. Would the sequence be: 1) warmup overcoming iso -> train overcoming iso -> warmup yielding iso -> train yielding iso OR 2) warmup overcoming iso + yielding iso -> train overcoming iso + yielding iso OR 3) both movements should have individual training days Appreciate the response!! Looking forward to the small edge training video

[@Liftsmcgee]

I’d say #2 sounds fine! Do all the warm up, and then move into the appropriate loads for training. But, you could also do #3 and warmup everything and have a day 1 overcoming work and day 2 yielding work

[@andrewlaw822]

@@Liftsmcgee amazing! Appreciate the response :)

[@michalmalicki9613]

Is there literature which demonstrates the superiority of overcoming isometric training over standard yielding isometric hangs? I am of course asking for research specific to finger flexor strength in the context of climbing. Thx

[@c4hp.]

For peak force, yes. For endurance, no. All-in-all there isn't great science on finger training, period. It will slowly happen over the coming years. As the video demonstrates, and the broader literature shows, it shouldn't matter which method you use, as long as you understand the specific adaptation you're looking for.

[@michalmalicki9613]

Thanks. Could you point me at the papers demonstrating the superiority of the overcoming vs yielding exercises for finger strength peak force? Thank you!

[@c4hp.]

@@michalmalicki9613I’ve already done that below.

[@michalmalicki9613]

Sorry, I got confused. Do you mean the Devise et al. paper from 2022 listed in the description of the video?

[@c4hp.]

that's one of the more recent ones, yes. Devise M, Lechaptois C, Berton E, Vigouroux L. Effects of Different Hangboard Training Intensities on Finger Grip Strength, Stamina, and Endurance. Front Sports Act Living. 2022 Apr 12;4:862782. doi: 10.3389/fspor.2022.862782. PMID: 35498522; PMCID: PMC9039162.@@michalmalicki9613

[@nathansato1942]

Would you recommend doing both the Curling and Pulling up sets each training session, and then how many days a week?

[@c4hp.]

yes. It makes the most sense to do the curling methods first (maybe a few sets of progressive intensity, 3-4 reps/set) followed by the pulling method (same progression, 2-3 reps/set). Each day before climbing is a good option, or twice per week in a strength training block.

[@Glenners]

Loved your podcast with Ryan! What you teach makes so much sense because it jives with what I've learned from powerlifting and bodybuilding, and bouldering is definitely the powerlifting of the climbing world lol. The connective tissue strengthening was new for me though, and so was learning that negatives or "yielding" isometric doesn't hit your actual muscle much. What do you think about multiple days of training in a row? My strength training background tells me since it's the same muscle groups you should take a day off in between at least.

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for your kind words and watching the video. Bouldering is certainly is more on the powerful side of our sport. To be clear, you can get high levels of muscle activity with yielding isometrics. It just requires a supra, maximal external load. That being said, those super heavy loads, done to frequently can be a risk factor for injuring the joints . The most important thing to take away from this video is there are a whole bunch of options to choose from when trying to strength train the fingers. Regardless of the method you choose the priority should still be practicing grips on the climbing wall. 🍻

[@Glenners]

@@c4hp. Wow thanks for this detailed reponse!

[@bubbyb0i6967]

Tension has several different sizes and types (slopers, incuts) for their balls. Which one do you prefer for the talon grip training?

[@Liftsmcgee]

I’ll let Tyler add in here too, but a slightly incut one would help get those fingertips engaged extra. Something slopey might be more of a progression/specific tool

[@c4hp.]

yeah, the incut ones makes sense. I also like doing it with a rounded structure as well. Atomic ninja balls 2.5" ones work well. I've even had clients put an i bolt through a baseball to use. You have options. @@Liftsmcgee

[@LuisRojas-yo6jd]

Tyler, thank you for sharing your knowledge so easily. You really do a great job. I have a question: If I don't have Tindeq to take measurements or train. How could I safely estimate 1rm? Would you recommend considering the level of effort in the measurements? For example: for a 3 second training protocol, measure 1 rm at 5 seconds (3 seconds of training + 2 seconds of effort level).

[@Liftsmcgee]

I would approach it with "safety" in mind for sure. For the curls, because they are overcoming isometrics, as long as you "get used to them" initially, you can work close to 100% all the time and it really wont be dangerous since the body will just fatigue. The "danger" is when there is range of motion to move through and you add too much weight like a back squat you get to the bottom of and can't come back up from, or a max hang you over shoot. For hangs, lets use the lift off the ground method for example, I would start conservation and slowly add weight. Shoot for perhaps a 5 Rep max (3s lift, 3s relax, x 5) with the best form you can maintain. Use that. I don't think you really need to see what weight you can barely dangle off the fingers (1 RM) all the time to efficiently baseline yourself for training and testing.

[@winfieldbrooks933]

Great video. I recently got a Force Board and was a unsure about how to transition what I have been doing on a hangboard to a dynamometer. Stoked to apply this and see if I can get my current #4 rank up a little higher. I'm coming for you Ian 😂

[@c4hp.]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching

[@NoOne-n9m9b]

Where can I buy the talon grip?

[@bodysmithperformance3741]

Previously I thought you were an advocate of max effort training (multiple sets of like a 5s hang), and you argued 10s hangs were not max strength training. Now you are advocating a form of recruitment pull repeaters with a goal of 80-85% effort and multiple reps per set. It reminds me of Sheiko. Why the change in beliefs? Is this to create more of a hypertrophic effect? Is max strength no longer the goal? Are you finding max effort recruitment pulls are too taxing to do with any regularity unless it’s just a rep or two in warm up? Thanks in advance for clarifying.

[@Liftsmcgee]

I'd say we are still advocating for strength training and loading things appropriately. The new information dives deeper into contraction types and what exactly happens after we perform a 80%+ effort (~3-5s) for each. All of these interventions are hypertrophic by nature (mechanical tension + High threshold MU recruitment), as well as strength training (same reasons). The low volume of the training just elicits less hypertrophy compared to adding more sets to the total weekly volume, etc. But I think the biggest application change is in better understanding contraction types

[@joshuaapplebaum5711]

Great video! When you’re using the unlevel edge is it important to keep the pip at 90 degrees and the dip joint fully extended or is some curve acceptable?

[@c4hp.]

Some curvature should be fine. The more I play with these and get feedback from individuals, the more I find what feels best is a personal thing for sure.

[@sergiovonsik]

Hey Tyler, I still don’t quite understand why the training focuses only on gaining strength through neural adaptations and doesn’t include something to promote hypertrophy of the finger flexors. I suppose increasing muscle size would enhance the potential for developing greater strength in the future. Somehow, this doesn’t seem to be a discussion topic in any of your videos or posts. Thank you, and I hope you get a chance to read this!

[@spulverable]

Any suggestions on determining curling load when doing pinch grip training?

[@Liftsmcgee]

So, the nature of the pinch doesn’t allow that to be possible just yet since the force gauge is vertical and would need to align in opposition (4 fingers and opposing thumb). Which is why the “pull” is the only thing quantifiable right now. However, you can still “try to crush the block” as an overcoming iso, and work pinches in to your on the wall work

[@EvanW-n4d]

How many x/week would I use this protocol if it’s the only stimulus my fingers are getting?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Assuming no climbing at all, 3-4x a week would be ok. If you’re adding in climbing, depending upon your experience level, it can drop down to 2-3x per week and still be effective

[@JJ-zo4xs]

is it possible to do a curling (concentric) exercise in the seated position as shown for the pulling (yielding isometric) method?

[@Liftsmcgee]

Yes! That is shown in the video. It is titled “curling down” in the video 4:21

[@xyzzy10000]

I have had a Tindeq for a few weeks now and my standing curl is consistently around 80-90% of my standing pull. Same for overhead pull. I seem to have a hard time pulling much harder than my curl like you are describing. Following the form you demonstrate in your videos. Any ideas why that might be?

[@FingersofFuryClimbing]

Are you not able to do finger curls in the talon grip because the ball doesn't allow for you to use your fingers without your thumb(without slipping off)? Do you feel finger curls using the talon grip is ideal? I've been experimenting with talon grip finger curls with a device made specifically for it and it definitely feels like a new to me stimulus but I haven't experimented with it very long.

[@Mr.Obiology1981]

Great video. I feel compelled to say that you should closely examine the hangboard used in this video. I noticed that there is a crack in line with the grain of the wood over the right hand jug that is starting to flex and separate. It doesn't take much force for wood to break down the grain. I would hate to have you or someone else have that snap apart while hanging with weights.

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for your concern but it’s not a crack in the board. The tension board is screwed in to another piece of wood. You’re seeing the gap between the two. I double checked this morning. Thanks for watching

[@forest-qh7jf]

been climbing for about 15 years....have L5/S1 disk extrusion with nerve root impingement, so am off climbing for a little while until i get some feeling back in my right foot (specifically big toe and its neighbour). been 10 weeks now.... hanging is not recommended for me at this stage. have started doing this finger protocol (cuz i simply gotta do something....;), but wondering if the leg push/pull (not the curl) is good for me. not feeling any discomfort/pain whilst doing it (usually a good sign), but with these types of injuries, i'm told negatives can creep up a day or two later. driving sets me off, as does moving up and down a latter (but have no choice to do both almost daily....), so i can't really gauge if the pull is harmful to me. i'm breathing and bracing well while doing it, as far as i know..... was wondering if you'd recommend these exercises to someone in my situation?

[@c4hp.]

Hi there, and I am sorry to hear about your back complaint. I personally have had experience with how sensitive those injuries can feel. I'd say the curling method is the least risky, but note that you could do the curling method on a fingerboard so you get less overall "core tension" and pressure to the lower back. I'd start there, then work into normal fingerboarding more than the pulling or lifting from the ground personally. But it's hard to say without knowing more about you and the timeline. Best of luck.

[@lucaslangen1741]

Hey Tyler, would you say it makes a big difference using 100% MVC instead of 80-85%? If yes, what and why ?

[@Liftsmcgee]

There are circumstances where 100% is fine, like with the curls and overcoming style because it’s “safer” and easier on the body than perhaps a yielding style, hang, etc. but it comes down to what is the minimum effective dose that gets me stronger but limits the accumulated stress and “cost” of exercising. The closer we get to 100% on things, especially repetitively over time, the higher the cost without a proportional gain in strength

[@lucaslangen1741]

@@Liftsmcgee makes sense, thank you Collin !

[@JussiTaka-so8xr]

I don’t know if I missed it but did you mention anything about RFD? Do you build up the pull slowly - as long as you reach that certain threshold - or try to do it as fast as possible? Or do you save this stuff for lower intensities/percentages of 1RM?

[@Liftsmcgee]

RFD was not specifically covered in this video, in the future for sure! So you would slowly ramp your efforts to your maximal, or to the 85%. Heavy and slow is the name of the game here, thank you for the question!

[@JussiTaka-so8xr]

@@Liftsmcgee thanks! I figured that’d be the case but had to check 🙂👌

[@c4hp.]

Once warmed up, i'd make the rate of force a priority with each effort. It's subtle though. Not easily visualized objectively, but the intention matters.

[@mickey_rose]

This is excellent. Could you upload follow along videos for the various methods described? They would compliment this video nicely so we could start incorporating these methods into our sessions.

[@aaronhauptmann869]

It's really not that complicated....

[@jakeshaw6540]

Great video, thanks for posting. All makes sense and have been experimenting with some of the methods. I know you have said here and elsewhere that curling is better for climbing specific strength gains. Clearly climbers have historically made significant climbing specific strength gains only using eccentric-like (hanging) methods on the hangboard. Is your point just that although hanging helps increase strength, the transfer to climbing would theoretically be better if using the concentric-like (curling) approach? I get the theory as to why it would, but is there any actual evidence for this?

[@c4hp.]

The use of the term specificity is thrown around in a confusing way all the time. Climbers do both (hang on holds, and curl into them) every time we climb. Getting stronger finger using a fingerboard can happen, but getting stronger fingers without a fingerboard can, and does, also happen. It definitely doesn't mean the tool doesn't have use, because it does. It just means that we want to understand why we are using it, and use it as little as possible. This would also apply to overcoming style muscle contractions. What i'm trying to do with this video is highlight some physiology that hasn't been picked up yet in climbing training, and how all these training methods aren't that different (except the curling/pulling distinction). As for isolated finger flexor testing, yes it has been studied in the context of rock climbing. Thanks for watching.

[@gregfinlayson8135]

Hey Team: thanks for putting great detailed information out there. Two questions: 1. I am 60 yrs old (ouch).. with a long training history. Does that suggest more emphasis on curling or resisting isometrics? 2. Slopers?

[@c4hp.]

It depends on what the difference looks like when you test your finger strength. It could be that you've hit a plateau with the yielding style loads, though. Because of that, you'd prob get some gains out of the curling methodology. Also, I think the "gains" attained with slopers are best made with general strength training (barbell stuff, forearm strength training, etc.), the talon grip, and practicing slopers on the wall. Because slopers don't stress different muscle groups, getting strong on the wall is more actionable in my opinion.

[@gregfinlayson8135]

Thanks.. really appreciate your doing this and replying..@@c4hp.

[@RasmusIsaksen101]

Great video 👌 if doing more strength training than the recommended warmup, would you do sets of overcomming isometric and yielding isometric on the same day, or rather periodize it, so you had a training block of overcomming isometric and then after hitting plateu a block of yielding isometric?

[@c4hp.]

I’d prob do them in the same order as shown here and in the previous video. Getting the brain to connect with more motor units is the goal of isolating the fingers (overcoming method) each day for training. Then get the larger stimulus with the yielding version (method of choice for you). Thanks for watching!

[@Flam3boyzz]

How would you decide when to use a 20mm edge vs a 25mm edge

[@Liftsmcgee]

Finger length and comfort really? I’d say worst case, default to the larger edge if the goal is strength. More benefits and less cost. Shrink the edge when the training goals are shifting to adapt the finger to tolerate smaller edges, which is different than maximizing strength

[@c4hp.]

If you're looking for increased max force, use a 25mm. If you're looking to train the full crimp, 20mm has been shown to be the best.

[@StephCurry243]

You mention that we need progressive overload at the end of the video. How would that look like for the curling method? In typical strength training you can add 1.25/ 2.5 kg per sessions to your lifts. For the curling method I was thinking about something like hitting a constant intensity (80-85% of max) for about 3 weeks, then retest your max and then maybe another cycle with a new intensity depending on the new max.

[@c4hp.]

He Steph, lol. Absolutely that is the best method, and why we use the @tindequipment for training. It's not as easy to track your force without a strain gauge, or to test your 1rm regularly. Stay tuned for the next video this week.

[@paulgaras2606]

So this is nifty. What kinds of gains do you typically see when athletes change from traditional hanging type finger training to these force gauge based exercises?

[@c4hp.]

The goal of this video is to show how all these methods (hanging, pulling, lifting, etc) would produce the same outcome on the fingers. The only distinction is the curling vs pulling exercises. But aside from that the adaptations shouldn’t be that different. The strain gauge does give you a better sense of fatigue in, and in-between sessions though.

[@douglystyles]

For a personal anecdote... I used to do a lot of hangs, but didn't notice a huge transfer. I started to overcoming isos with a tension block and forceboard about 2 months ago. The biggest "gain" I've noticed is on the wall (I haven't tested max hangs in a long time). I've had a noticable increase in overall strength on the wall, which has led to more confidence in going for and holding smaller holds. Side benefit: being able to test your max before a session is a great way to gage how your fingers really are doing, rather than just feeling it out and hoping for the best. Definitely recommend.

[@WisdomThroughGod]

Im kindve lost, is overcoming an iso going from half crimp to near full crimp?

[@adrianlandreth9918]

Would it make sense to isolate individual fingers for the purpose of increasing strength?

[@c4hp.]

No, I don’t think for strength gains it makes sense. For coordination, if you need it, but do it on the wall.

[@Liftsmcgee]

Yep, what Tyler said, I read “isolate fingers” in my original reply and not “isolate INDIVIDUAL fingers”, refer to Tyler’s reply! Lol

[@nicolascormier5478]

When you are performing the test ; curling vs pulling on the edge , one is more half-crimp and the other one is a open grip position at the end... Does this matter? Every time that you perform a rep near max your finger open up a bit and go from Half-crimping to open-handing. So you get a higher peak force this way because this is your stronger grip position. I'm weaker in open hand grip position and I produce less force on a 25mm un-even edge vs 20mm tension block in half-crimp position.

[@c4hp.]

The primary reason the more half-crimp grip is used with the overcoming test is to optimize leverage for curling the fingers. Because of the DIP joint (make the lever longer), it is hard to curl into the edge from that more open position. The point of that test/training is to optimize that contractile force. When I do the yelding test, or the 1-arm loaded hangs, the open crimp is my preferred position. In that context, I think the exact grip position is less critical because I'm only trying to increase force production. Did that answer your question?

[@nicolamilanese1373]

Hi, thx for your work. I'm not sure to understand how do you compute the difference between the curling vs pulling. Let's take the unlevel curling and pulling down results 263 lbs vs 362 lbs. Which is the proper math? (362-263)/263 --> 37.6% or (362-263)/362 --> 27.3% In the video you talk about 30%

[@c4hp.]

The latter example. The 30% was a range over multiple reps not shown in the video. Thanks for watching with a keen eye.

[@albertolamorte867]

Hi Tyler, thank you for your videos 🤩💪 One question: would you test your 100% every session after warming up (to set the proper max for that session and then go for 85% exercises) or you would test 100% once every week/month/??? Thank youuu!!!

[@c4hp.]

Testing your max in this way is quite simple and fast. But ultimately it depends on the how "obsessed" you'll get with the numbers changing too often, or not enough. The progression isn't always linear and will ebb and flow daily. I do max efforts every time I use the tool and think that makes the most sense, but I know they aren't always going to be greater than the last session.

[@Erik_Norseman]

@@c4hp.Hi Tyler, how would you suggest testing your max if you do not have a load cell? Do you keep adding weight to a pin until you can only hold it for 2-4 seconds?

[@Veloxzr]

@@c4hp. Is increased chance of injury not a cause for concern with testing your 1RM each time you train finger strength, which may be multiple times per week? I've often seen the advice to refrain from testing your 1RM frequently, but is this approach different because of how short the effort is or another mitigating factor?

[@AdamSchütt-r1j]

thank u!!!

[@c4hp.]

You're welcome. Thanks for watching. Share with your friends.

[@c_healy]

Got another question. In the first video for both warm up pt 1 and warm up pt 2 it said to pull for 3 seconds and rest for 5. I see here that the work time is 2-4 seconds (which 3 fits within), but I don’t see how much to rest before the next rep. Is it only a second or two? And if so, why the difference? Is the 5 seconds in the warm up just because it’s a warm up and we want to ease into things?

[@c4hp.]

I wouldn't put that much emphasis on being precise with the rest time. The 5 second recommendation is really to give people a definitive number to ensure they aren't going too hard too fast. I personally never time my rest when doing sets like this. When you're ready to do the next rep, do the next rep. Knowing that the goal is to keep faituge down.

[@c_healy]

@@c4hp. Cool. Thanks! I think that makes sense! Would you say the rest between reps on these is no different than the rest between reps on a bench press, deadlift, or any other standard lift/exercise?

[@VolodymyrBarna]

For me pulling up method is producing much less force using tindeq. It's less than 50kg with straight arms and pushing with legs. With bend elbow I can get 55kg. Where as when I'm pulling down it can be more than 60kg. Also with bend elbow. On hangboard I can do 125kg (my weight is 80kg, which is +45kg). What causes such difference? I'm a little reluctant to start training using tindeq since the force is much lower. And due to bilateral deficit I should pull more weight than I do on a hangboard with both hands.

[@c4hp.]

The reason there is a difference is due to the pulling tests being more muscular than hanging. It relies more in pulling strength (shoulder, arm, core, etc.). There’s also the coordinating component. If you haven’t done much pulling as your training, you’re probably not as coordinated at it as you are hanging. You’d prob see gains going through a training cycle of it, then going back to your hangs to check. Thanks for watching

[@jg6105]

Do you have a stl-fil for the unlevel edge to 3d-print?

[@c4hp.]

Not sure what that is? I don’t make those edges.

[@zacharylaschober]

Those edges are made by headtotoe3d and are available for purchase. He likely wants to control the quality of the print and would not want to simply provide a print file itself.

[@stranger_unfamiliar]

When you say curl the fingers - do you mean as though you’re gripping something without your thumbs ?

[@c4hp.]

Imagine curling your fingers into an immovable object. If you haven't seen the first video, i'd suggest you check that one out. It has some good examples. It's called an overcoming isometric and my hypothesis is that it represents more literal muscle force in the finger flexors.

[@lucaa4480]

I tried it and it seems that the only thing engaged was my back not my fingers, arms, biceps and forearms

[@c4hp.]

tried what exactly? There's a lot of things to try on this video.

[@lucaa4480]

@@c4hp. the image in the cover

[@c4hp.]

If you're lifting the load off the ground, you're definitely using your fingers. If it feels like too much stress on the back try one of the other methods shown in the video.@@lucaa4480

[@markham5697]

🤘

[@Liftsmcgee]

Double 🤘🤘

[@dinguskhan69697]

shweet

[@c4hp.]

Thanks for watching

[@yogyclimbs]

I think you are overcomplicating things here.

[@c4hp.]

Really? How so

[@yogyclimbs]

@@c4hp. At least you lost me with all th edifferent tools, tests, summing up of all results etc. To keep it simple: One test on one equipment should be sufficient for that specific tool & exercise, I'd recommend a hangboard. Then... 1) one starts at for example [7sec hang/load @ 85%_of_max / 3min rest / 6 reps ] once or twice a week. That is my simple explanation for the content of this video, I think curling fingers is better done when really climbing. Additional input would be: 2) Later, the precentage and number of reps can be increased in little steps one after the other (intensity / volume) 3) Retest every now and then and start again. 4) Once a plateau is reached, break it by i.e. a) play around with hangtime (5-10sec) and or really high loads, b) use a very different hypertrophy protocol for some months or c) switch beween hangboard & portable-block PS: I have a tindeq since 2 years and love this gimmick 😁

[@c4hp.]

@@yogyclimbs 1. The whole point of showing all the options is to demonstrate that athletes can do whichever they prefer. Curling the fingers (on an edge) under heavy load has been shown to be really stressful on the annular pulleys. I totally get that this video is a lot of numbers and examples (it actually says it in the video), but my whole point is to give climbers more confidence that they have many options to choose from. There are way more similarities than differences.

[@lutherbrown8873]

@@c4hp. I get trapezius pain that lasts for days after hangboarding, so it's nice to know there is an option to pull from the floor and still be able to get strong while avoiding pain and being safe.

[@c4hp.]

@@lutherbrown8873I use it regularly with my clients with shoulder pain. 🙌