Fire Hardened Hickory Self Bow - Will it BREAK?

[@johnshort4421]

Hey Clay and all. I am new to archery and find fire hardening intriguing. What I don’t get is why hasn’t someone used a thermal thermometer gun and hack some propane into this pit and get some real testing with time and temps that work. I am no KZbinr, except to watch, but I will tear up some grills and build a proper heat box and burn me some wood. Hydrometer is a must as is temps along the full range of the bow.

[@devinbooth609]

You have hands down the best bow videos out there. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[@clayhayeshunter]

Very welcome

[@tribeofbenjaminslings6322]

Great to see another archer doing his. I do mine with a heat gun. About 10 minutes per side, I've never really timed it... But I rub in oil when I finish a limb and the heat sucks the oil in deep. I repeat the oil application when the belly is dry again and after around 4 applications the belly stays wet and I let it cool completely. Rub in/off that last oil remnant and start the next limb. I have always let the limbs rehydrate for a week or two before final tiller and I was really impressed by your 24 hour bow. I tried the same day tiller with a white oak bow and it held together too. Thank you for the tip.

[@AnonYmous-ii4tc]

Clay, you’re doing exactly what I was thinking too. Go spend time with those guys. I would really like to see some videos of that. Just think about how much you have to heat a tiny limb tip to recurve it, here you’ve got a lot more wood to heat through. Like you said, overnight or more heat may do the trick. Good luck up north. I know you’ll get this down. I harvested a small hickory a few weeks ago and have been working toward curing and hardening it like Keith& Thad too. Time and weather have not allowed me to yet but I finally got a stave in the form last night. Fire later this week. So glad you’re adding this knowledge to your quiver & sharing your own twists on it too. Thanks.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Thanks Anon

[@martarmis]

Can't wait to see that video with Keith and Thad. I bought their DVD in which they are documenting this process because in my area I only got White Woods and was aiming for building performing bows. But I haven't got the chance to try it yet. Any experience you'll share about what mistakes to avoid will greatly benefit me. Thank you, very good video, as always.

[@insatiable_mind]

That’s a beautiful bow. I really want to take one of your classes with my daughter. My father told me that heat treatment was used when making wood arrows and spearheads. He also mentioned that wood was shaped using steam and hot wet rags. He read a lot and always talked to me about what he was reading when I was a kid. To my knowledge he never tried any of it. He just loved to read.

[@tomcowart2383]

Ive just started making bows. First 4 did not work out, watched some of your videos and since have made some very successful shooting bows. One thing I have done which was and experiment. fire harden with propane torch right on wood. (using hickory) so far ive seen good results

[@StumpArchery]

Enjoyed the video...learning and getting excited about maybe trying to build my own .

[@sarchlalaith8836]

Hey just so you know the easiest way to do this is as follows. Bury the wooden bow 16-20cm in sand or dry dirt UNDER a fire, so you'll have to build the fire in a line, when the fire is going well. You leave the wood under the fire for 30 mins tops. That will bake it through, start with 20 min for caution.

[@dannyrowe6506]

Thanks for your time, back in the 80's i built a few hickory hunting bow's and had good luck with them

[@Lorenzo-vb1so]

Just wanted to say before i watch the whole video your an amazing craftsman and a huge inspiration to me

[@mtnsloper55]

A good test would be to chrono the bow before and after the heat treat to see if you have gained anything through the process

[@michaellacy8510]

Love that you just go for it. Inspirational.

[@robertcarte95]

I only been building self bows a year but have built several. Naturally being from south Ga I've been following Thad. My first few fire hardened bows exploded due to me learning what not to do tillering. I built one knotty rough looking flatbow that I though I over cooked and ruined. You can actually see color change on the back of the bow. It has stayed together through probably 500 shots and within minutes after being unstrung goes back toots original backset of 1". It is a bit wider and thinner than my others. Always enjoy your vids.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Thanks Robert

[@timvandusen4192]

That's a beautiful bow. Has a shape kinda like my Howatt.

[@philiprogers8620]

Haven’t watched the source video you mentioned yet Clay, but looking for the color change in the wood as you heat it up reminds me of tempering steel. That’s really what we are up to here isn’t it? Very interesting experiment, thanks for sharing!

[@clayhayeshunter]

Pretty much

[@christianbowyer7812]

Hi, thanks for the new try on fire hardened bows. The results are astoundig. My highest respect for giving Keith, Thad (also Billy Berger) the credit for setting the standards for this re-invented technique. Others just copy and sell it as their own invention. Great idea to visit them and share the experience to make sure to look at the crucial details. Keep on with the videos on traditional/primitive archery!

[@clayhayeshunter]

Thanks Christian

[@jaiditvergara182]

Greetings from Colombia friends thanks for sharing your experiences thanks

[@danthemoparman628]

Definitely gonna give a hickory bow a shot soon. Currently setting up a small work shop to build some bows finally. Thanks for all the info!

[@AesculusPavia]

I can't wait to see some arrows fly from this bow! You are might already aware, but Billy Berger also has a DVD on fire hardening bows.

[@lobopropredatorcontrol]

Sure love the content, good luck and hope you get this figured out, beautiful bow👊

[@Rowanbows]

Heat treating is the most effective and easiest tuning. Belly gets lighter, harder and can´t take as much moisture then before cause you shrink the wood cells forever. Basically you´re making 2 woods a flexible on the back and a hard on the belly. Bow get lighter - arrow gets faster - simple story

[@dalehooper159]

I'll try this before I back the bow with sinew. Anyone else done it. I like to back my bow with sinew. enjoy your videos. Clay you need to come over to AZ do some hunting on my ranch.

[@carterslade405]

testvér tölled csak tanulni lehet. köszönöm azt a rengeteg tudást amit a videoidón átadsz. üdvözöllek kis hazámból magyarországról🙂 ilyen messze elhallatszik a hangod 😁

[@machunter1574]

Looks great man one thing i can tell you that is different is keith says using a green tree vrs a fairly or mostly dried stave does something different in the heat treat because the fibers in the wood are still very flexible and havnt began to kind of lock into place verses with a wet stave your driving out moisture from very pliable fibers and they get tighter if I remember correctly

[@shanek6582]

My dozen hickory staves got turned into wood for my smoker once I discovered Osage, man I love that stuff!

[@BruceEEvans1]

Regarding the color change of the limbs: Applying my cooking knowledge, when food begins to brown it is called carmelization, that is, the sugars in the food are beginning to carmelize. I wonder if this applies to your process also. Different species of wood probably contain different concentrations of sugar. I would expect maple to have very high sugar content, while poplar would have much less. Just a thought.

[@FT4Freedom]

Char. Carmelizing of sugar is charred sugar. Color change in wood is charred wood. Char is excessive heat on any organic material.

[@ryanstone9770]

Clay I want to purchase an Osage stave! Thanks to your videos I built my first bow it’s hickory and I fire hardened it is 62 inches 62lbs at 29” draw. I now want to build an Osage bad! But thanks for your knowledge.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Congrats Ryan!

[@CrisAnderson27]

If you clamp the bottom of your c-clamps horizontally with another c-clamp, it'll make a nice stable base that doesn't wobble and tip. Works really well. I'm getting ready to finish a hollow limb hickory bow. This thing has fought me every step of the way so I'm wondering what new adventures I'm in store for when I go to harden it lol.

[@asse1154]

what a great looking bow so far clay, i really dig the color of the belly! ive never made a bow but could you place the back of the bow closest to the heat than the belly for not only heat distribution but aesthetics as well? a time lapse video of the bow while its being fire hardened might reveal a color change in the wood as long as there is a consistant light source. cant wait to see the finished product, good luck!

[@caseysmith544]

Heard some of the Native Tribes did this with the Cedar/Juniper bows in the USA. Just not sure which ones as I know the ones in the Upper Plains, the Sioux used a thin leather/rawhide backing or a Sinew backing for the bow, sometimes the front and back if the wood was subpar Cedar. They used an odd B shaped longbow with the Lakota/Nakota and Crow bands of tribes as well as a few Mandan tribes using the B shape longbow who almost all also backed the front of the bow.

[@Firmglint91]

I have positive tiller in my 1962 bear kodiak special, and i have a feeling it is aiding in the string slap i recive from it, i dont shoot it much because its the only bow that does it and i have checked brace height etc and it still does it

[@shakoiatenhawithacrossjaco9051]

Crocks. The official shoe of the man when working at home

[@paulbales3513]

Exciting. Looking forward to seeing what happens! Thank you for the video!

[@arumscomet8953]

@Clay, next time you’re fire hardening you should forget messing with the coals if they’re unevenly heating and just spin the whole bow 180° at the halfway point on the clock.

[@joshuahindle1392]

Ive learned Alot from your videos I wish I could send you one I successfully have been fire hardening bows with an open flame from a wood fire not charcoal in a trench like the one you had in the other video

[@remideroche7247]

To avoid burning the handle when I do this process, I had succes by wrapping the handle with two layers of aluminium foil. A peace of 5 or 6 inches large so your fades can get some heat but not the handle and the riser. Don't wrap it too tight, let it slightly loose so it wont conduct the heat but just act like a heat shield. Also don't wrap it over the front of your bow. It will conduct the heat against the front and leave marks as it is pressed between the bow and the jig. Instead, wrap it all around the jig and the bow. In another hand, have the handle scorched like you did ads a nice looking style too.

[@mikeseeley1042]

Excellent Remi, I was thinking along the same lines. But you gave me even better guidance than my initial idea of simply wrapping the handle in foil.

[@remideroche7247]

@@mikeseeley1042 I'm glad that my comment has been of any help for you. Cheers.

[@catchncookcalifornia1574]

Another great vid man! I taught my old intern to make a bow today in the woods. The brace height was a little low, but it was zippy and he was stoked! The witchery of archery is certainly contagious! Cheers!

[@kgsz]

Sir, never since I was a little kid I felt like I want a bow, but now suddenly I feel a bow-shaped hole in my life, and I think I must pretend it's just an excuse for some me time in the workshop :) Thank you for your incredibly informative and approachable videos.

[@clayhayeshunter]

Have fun!

[@theyoungoutdoorsman5814]

Great video clay !!!!! Im very interested in the fire hardening process as well

[@JohnDoe-qk3bo]

Do you have a video on how to build the form that you use for fire hardening?

[@darren2883]

I watched this video and like all your videos I like them. On this video you are trying to fire harden a bow that has already been down in a previous video where you dug a pit and used Tim on the sides. Anyway the two gentlemen you are talking about cut a tree down shaped bow and was doing what you are with the concrete blocks it was a 100% green . Maybe that is why after they fire harden they could see the difference on the side of there bow and you are not yours, because yours has been done once. I LOVE YOU VIDEOS KEEP BRINGING THEM…. Good job

[@C200michmich]

bravo . c'est très bien expliqué , votre arc est magnifique. en france on a pas de hickory . on peut prendre du Frêne . merci

[@MrRandude101]

New friend I really love your work and fully understand your methods of using what is available and keeping cost down. A man after my own heart. On fire hardening I have to ask the question, why do you harden only the belly of the bow? Wouldn't the entire bow, the back and sides also benefit from such a process? If that's true, instead of your shaping jig just a metal wire holding your shape at this point. Remote infrared temperature reading guns are available at home stores for $30-$40

[@rorynelson7548]

Can you use a torch for a lot faster heat treat and also fire hardening?

[@christiannye3950]

Thanks clay.

[@hunterm96]

As always extremely informative & fantastic video

[@Kurtdog63]

The darkened handle actually added beauty.

[@rasberry1051]

Just watched you win on alone ! Congratulations, thats tough as hell, I knew you would win after you stuck that deer lol found your channel on accident and love making long bows as well. That osage in the background looks sexy lmao

[@clayhayeshunter]

Thanks much

[@joakim2407]

As far as the color travelling up the sides, could it be dependent on the type of wood you're using, or maybe wether it was thoroughly dried beforehand or still green? As I recall, this particular stave was dried for years...? What would fire hardening a green bow do to the fibres compared to the already dried wood? Come fall, a friend of mine and I will go to town on a couple of ash staves we set to dry 2-3 years ago. I'm tempted to try this method on at least one of them. Cool little series you've got going, man. Looking forward to the next one.

[@steved1008]

Maybe you have covered the subject before but what about vertical grain instead of flat grain in hickory bows. I bought a commercial self bow / long bow that works very well but the grain is vertical. Seems to go against everything I’ve read on the subject but it works. I even heat treated it to acquire a bit more poundage.

[@tribesc8762]

Nice work , I’m ready to build another

[@clayhayeshunter]

Me too!

[@richardquick826]

clay where do u buy 1/8 inch to 3/16 " wood rasp round files? i can't find a thing on the net richard

[@GeorgeShook-su8fs]

I want to comment you on the way you talk on the film you don't use any swear words at all. That makes your movie a scale of 10

[@joshuahindle1392]

The trench method works great for me with an open flame but I dry it at the same time but you actually have to make a day out of it and stay on top of your fire but I have a bow I did that way and I think it's great

[@seanbyham7838]

The temperature to keep the bow at is from 180 to 300 degrees Fahrenheit. it’s hard to maintain the sweet spot of around 250 degrees Fahrenheit for almost 2 hours. A lot of charcoal is needed. I used a cooking thermometer and checked it constantly and it came out really well but I had to adjust the height and add charcoal constantly to keep the temperature right. I just tried another one and got it too hot and it wasn’t long enough, not ruined but needs deeper heat. It’s like learning to cook a good steak

[@SteveForbes-y1o]

Clay have you ever tried to harden a board bow?

[@caseysmith544]

Tip man is to get a small battery digital scale off Amazon. The good/better ones are $15--$20 USA so not much. Just test 3 times to your draw or draw of the bow or the draw on tiller and go from there, they need to be hooked to the bow. Often these are luggage/fishing muti-purpose. Mine was up to 110 pounds or 55 kilograms. Spend a bit more as though they look similar the cheap ones under $10 are the same thing just made for less weight often and people selling often label them to be able to handle the same weight as the 110 pounds models due to not caring what they got in. I only say Amazon as you can read reviews unlike E-bay. This should help in travel and take battery out before airport travel/get two for both places. You can also use this for people at camp who do not know there draw weight with bow. I have done this for my mom and dad at there place with my weight tool and plan to use it for testing luggage weight as well. My bow I know is 35--36 pounds for a 45 pound draw bow and my other bow is 34--35 pounds for a 36 pound draw bow, this is due to low brace height with that model of all fiberglass 60 inch longbow being one of the lowest at 4.5 to 5.5 inches. Still looking for a good model of that same all fiberglass bow at 40-45 pounds.

[@chattahoocheeoutdoorsman4865]

Do you think theirs was keeping more backset from the firehardening process because Keith and Shannon's bows looked like they were bending through the handle. I'm thinking the stiff handle puts more work on the limbs and it and causes it to lose some backset at the fades. I did my hickory bow with a stiff handle and it didn't keep quite the backset as the bows that Keith and Shannon did. Mine does the same as yours after you unstring it, it will come back pretty close to what it was initially. Love the videos Clay! Been watching for years and your videos are what got me started in making my own bows. Can't wait for the next one.

[@stephenlindsey9233]

Awesome video

[@eddy4112]

Clay, I think this video and the one that precedes this one (Hickory Self Bow) are the two best "how to" videos you have ever done. Your explanations are concise, yet well explained. Your willingness to try something new, not know what the results may be, frees many of us neophytes up to experiment and learn. I sincerely believe these to be two of the best bow videos I have ever seen. Funny how 100 days "alone" causes someone to start thinking straight ;-)

[@borumfishing]

Why does a bow need a positive tiller on the top limb? Is it related to the arrow placement above the midpoint or what?

[@fallenhobbit6554]

Yes. you have it exactly from what I know.

[@hughswanzy8871]

Thanks!

[@slock1095]

You should make a jig for the belly side of the bow and go back and forth with each jig. Maybe that would be even heating if you rotate just a thought

[@UncleDanBand64]

I am just wondering if you need newer wood. It would seem that you need a little more sap to crystalize from the heat to act as your glue. I bet Thad and Keith can get you on the right track. I am looking forward to your results👍

[@michaelhanes8214]

Did you do the follow up video on this?

[@MarcRitzMD]

Do you think using charcoal (or wood) would be a sustainable heat source for you as a professional bowyer or would something like gas or an electric "grill" work better for making the process streamlined?

[@kentonward97]

I wonder if you backed the bow with sinew that wouldn’t help the back snap back more thus being stronger to help pull the belly back into shape.

[@eminart]

Is this bow still holding shape? I wouldn't mind giving this a try since hickory is so easy to get.

[@maplebrew]

I do recall Thad and Kieth saying that they thought 300 degrees for 3 hours is a good cook. They preferred that over 400 for 1 hour

[@codystoaks1205]

Ju st for fun have you ever thought of mullberry

[@jasonprairie9968]

Hey Cody, I thought the same thing about 2 years ago. I put up 4 mulberry staves 2 years ago this spring. Gonna start this spring and see how it works. After seeing how the elm did I'm fairly optimistic.

[@genem.toddjr.1831]

Enjoyable and educational...Question, in your opinion, would this benefit a bow from "Crepe Myrtle"?

[@clayhayeshunter]

I believe it would

[@lukebonagurio4503]

What do you do with all thease bows you make? I've had to watch you make at least 20

[@parsaledm]

13:49 I find it funny, do all self bow builders do that? "Looks good, feels good." Sniffs the bow: "...Smells good."

[@clayhayeshunter]

😂

[@FETeching]

Something I have learned about cooking over coals is that charcoal burns much cooler than hardwood. Maybe that could make a difference when it comes to the heat penetrating.

[@christianbowyer7812]

Hi G M. Clay used hardwood in an earlier try on fire hardening, that went too far and the bow was charred though he let the wood burn down to coals. Clay used charcoal briquettes which are much easier to be controlled for an equal heat distribution. If air would be blown into the coals, heat would go up significantly. A controlled air supply from underneath instead of coals just lying on the ground would help to get a hotter and more controlled heat source.

[@michaelshallett6665]

Hi Clay...my question is.. would it be an idea after the fire hardening process.. to maybe let it stay in the form for possibly 48 to 72 hours and the take it out and go through the tiller process and back set process? Just was wondering... thank you from Maine

[@clayhayeshunter]

Once it’s cool, it’s pretty well set. I don’t think leaving it in the form wouldn’t have much affect.

[@davidbailey2371]

I’m in the process of making a bow from a green hickory. Could I use this same method to dry the stave? Also it’s cool to see some North Florida hunting on KZbin, I’m just east of Tallahassee.

[@wayne251975]

Basically this is referred to as Case hardening. In this situation it is a desirable trait. You have to be aware of your progress to avoid the wood structure from "Honey Combing". Hickory can be tough as Nails if treated right or your progress could fall apart if you get complacent with your improvements. Bottom line is to learn and have some fun with it...

[@Mwwright79]

Clay, have you noticed any moisture gain resistance with this?

[@clayhayeshunter]

Not sure yet

[@jakegoodrich3106]

I know I’m late to the party. I’m sure you may have figured this out on your own. But could you turn the bow 180 degrees say every 10 minutes to even the heat? Also I really enjoy the channel.

[@mestafaalbaz2595]

How long was it exposed to fire?

[@jessicabenson9017]

Do you mind attempting this process with some sort of oak such as water oak Thanks in advance Robert Benson

[@Ps2352]

Any chance yew wood would benefit from heat treating? I know it bends easily to heat.

[@christianbowyer7812]

Hi David, yew wood is very elastic and springy in itself. But it does improve somewhat from fire hardening. More so in a flatbow design than in the English longbow design with the more rounded belly. The effect is by far more significant with tough ‚white woods’ like hickory, ash and elm, hornbeam, hophornbeam, black locust, also privet (ligustrum vulgare), dogwood and probably many more.

[@akhandpratapsingh9717]

One of the limb of my bow have a natural backset of about half inch and the other limb is almost straight. What should i do for tillering?

[@clayhayeshunter]

I usually clamp the he limbs into a form and heat them so the profiles match.

[@karlwellendorf763]

What happens if you heat treat the back as well?

[@clayhayeshunter]

You’d make the back brittle and likely break the bow.

[@reds6836]

It’s like browning a marshmallow over the fire😁

[@fettmaneiii4439]

Why do you want a little bit of positive tiller?

[@clayhayeshunter]

It tends to make a more stable bow in the long run.

[@aarondavis5535]

So if it was at the right pull weight why fire harden it? I'm new at this stuff And this fire Harding seems like a good ideal for a crossbow

[@arnaulpujol8439]

Esos son los arcos de mi agrado uno de ese modelo me lo voy hacer de de olmo hojala q me salga saludo de buenos Bs As

[@Fulldraw_Tundra]

It's not as primitive but maybe you could use a heat gun to get a more control the heat treatment process and to use an infrared thermometer to measure the temps in different areas of the bow?

[@BarryConroy-pc3ny]

Can I use my bow oven to dry my hickory

[@2Dutchy]

There backset form looks like it could be 2 x 8 i know this was a while ago, do you remember?

[@clayhayeshunter]

Either that or a 2x6

[@UncleDanBand64]

Last time you did it like my wife cooking supper. You confused the smoke detector with the cook timer😀

[@perryfrazeoutdoors8019]

Can you achieve the same result with a heat gun? I was thinking of trying this on an Osage I just built that came in a little underweight.

[@clayhayeshunter]

You can get limited results with a heat gun but fire hardening goes far beyond heat treatment.

[@strider1970]

With a hickory, or any wood, self bow, will string follow eventually make the bow unusable, or are there ways to actually fix it?

[@j.shorter4716]

If the bow is never wet or over drawn the set shouldn’t get excessive. From what I understand a bow will usually take a little set when it’s new and it shouldn’t continue to take much more if it’s built right.

[@1uti_size]

where can I buy this bow?

[@mattswildpointofview5057]

I would love to see all three of you guys building some bows and go on a pig hunt or something

[@DanielReyes-hz1qk]

Just a quick question, you mentioned the bow being on the heavier side for you at 60 pounds, what draw weight do you typically like to shoot? I've been shooting a 40lb take down recurve recreationally and was curious if it would be worth getting 50lb limbs for it (the highest draw weight the manufacturer makes for the bow). My draw length is still fluctuating a bit as I work on my form and anchor point, but it's looking like somewhere around 28.75 and 29 inches

[@christianbowyer7812]

Hi Daniel, during the video Clay mentioned he aims for a poundage in the mid 50‘s at his usual draw length of 29 inches.

[@tradfreak_roots]

Question I have. Will fire hardening add poundage?

[@clayhayeshunter]

Yes, I’m most cases.

[@ricardobarros9902]

Meu sonho é ter um Arco primitivo desses 😍

[@belegurthbaggins805]

Just curious, does fire hardening lessen the life of the bow??