Firefox : Mythmaking and the Cold War

Firefox, Starring Clint Eastwood and a fake MiG, is a Cold War classic. That doesn't necessarily make it a great movie, but it's definitely a slice of its time.
Side note: Firefox is another name for the red panda, which I find delightfully amusing for some reason.
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[@ivanthemadvandal8435]

Funny enough, the MiG25 "superfighter" spawned the closest thing to a super fighter of that era in response, the F15 Eagle, the most successfully air to air combatant to exist, 102-0

[@104thironmike4]

105-0. Also the most successfull air to air fighter was the F-14, because the F-14 was the big bad boogeyman for the US adversaries. While ultimately the Phoenix is less capable than an AMRAAM, the fact that the AWG-9 provided TWS, saw hundreds of miles, and could fire missiles from a hundred miles away (theoretically, in reality it was a bit less, depending on alt, speed, etc of ownship and target), made it scary to the point that adversaries rather turned away. And what could be a more effective weapon than the one that prevents fighting altogether? Or have you ever heard of a US carrier fleet attacked? Exactly. Why it did not rack up kills during Desert Storm, was because the Air Force was hellbound on calling dibs on as much as they could, and the F-14s were not really put to use.

[@owlsayssouth]

​@@104thironmike4 and, every time the F-14 turned on it's radar, the Iraqi migs would go evasive and run away. Experience of fighting against the F-14 of the Iranians.

[@53kenner]

I was in my early 20s, and in the Navy, when this came out. I have to admit that I found the concept of super-advanced Soviet technology to be hilarious...especially since I had read Belenko's book a few years previously. I also wondered just how good voice activated weapons would be ... I can pull the trigger on a gun faster than I could tell it to shoot...and the trigger never misunderstands me. Aerodynamically, the nose also looked a bit funny given the idea that the aircraft was supposed to be exceedingly fast. The F-117 later had something similar and it wasn't exactly quick.

[@feralhistorian]

Yeah, I always thought that the weapons were the last thing I'd want "thought control" on. Now direct brain interface on flight controls, that has some potential. Mostly to go horribly wrong when it doesn't work right, but the concept at least has merit.

[@awnage]

"Awe, shoot" - Mater, Cars 2

[@darson100]

The MiG 25 did lead the US to develop the F-15 though, which is not a bad thing for a myth

[@BetterThanLifeProd]

I learned Russian at DLI. Laughingly the KGB wasn't asking for papers throughout the movie, they were asking for paper.

[@DrewLSsix]

Toilet paper, they'll let you pass with a little bribe that keeps them out of the tp lines.....

[@thegloriousryius]

Chi-Ling! DLI in da house!

[@michaelmartin9022]

Soviet bog roll shortages

[@N0sf3r4tuR1s3n]

I need to write down a phone number, comrade, do you have any paper?

[@talonfox3956]

"...the type of Ork-work I do in my garage." --nice!

[@darrenrenna]

Reminds me of The Hunt for Red October... we overestimated Soviet technology right up to the end of the Cold War... laughed when I saw the MIG-37 Model, had it as a kid!

[@modelermark172]

Thank you for another interesting essay where actual history and pop culture interact! As an avid model builder, I appreciated your shout-out to the iconic Testors-Italeri "MiG-37B Soviet Stealth Fighter," which was released to compliment their "F-19 Stealth Fighter." This kit is still periodically available and comes in both 1/72nd and 1/48th scales. As for the real Foxbat; I was 16 - 17 when Soviet Pilot Viktor Belenko defected to Japan with his then hyper-secret MiG-25. About 100 days later, Hasegawa Models (whose people were allowed to examine the actual aircraft) produced a state-of-the-art kit, complete with box art showing the landed aircraft partially covered with tarpaulins on the Japanese Airfield. The 1/72nd scale model - which sold for a whopping $3.00 - caused a big stir at local hobby shops. But we almost got a kit of this plane a little sooner . . . . Sometime later, I read an article about the history of Aurora Models that showed an acetate prototype for the MiG-25, (at the time, thought to be designated "MiG-23,") proposed in the late 1960's. Though it would have been less accurate, it would have been cool to have had it almost a decade before the Hasegawa kit. If memory serves, the same article also featured a photo of a proposed Aurora Yak-28; which we wouldn't get an injection-molded model of until after the turn of the century . . . . When the MiG-25 was finally returned to the Soviet Union, it was disassembled and sent back in crates. According to various rumors I heard, some wise guy tossed in a copy of the Hasegawa model kit instruction sheet. A better version of this tale was that a few cases of the kits were included with the returned plane as a kind of backhanded thanks. 619th Like.

[@feralhistorian]

I have heard the story of the Hasegawa instructions being tossed in before, which strikes me as just the right level of snark for the situation.

[@modelermark172]

@@feralhistorian Another story I heard was about the Renwal and Revell Cutaway Submarine kits (The USS George Washington and the USS Ethan Allen) that supposedly gave away "classified secrets," and that employees at the Soviet Embassy were seen "buying up cases" of this kit. About 30 years ago, we had a neighbor from the Soviet Union, (Ukraine, actually,) who was also a model builder. When I mentioned that story to him, he had a good laugh, and provided a more plausible explanation. Yes, the Soviet Navy and the KGB wanted these kits, but not in the amount being bought. Actually, Western model kits were in high demand on the USSR's Black Market (maybe not as much as a pair of Levi's or a Beatles Album, but there was a market for these kits.) Typically, a Soviet modeler would keep one for themselves, and use the others for trade. I'm not really interested in adding an Su-57 to my collection. But I recently got my hands on a vintage VEB Plasticart Su-7 (from East Germany!) to add to my collection!

[@cypherian2]

I love the location you chose for this video! Showing off a lot of the finest aircraft the US produced during the cold war in the background really drives the point home about quality Vs. Quantity! Where was this video shot? Or would you rather keep your location Classified? Firefox for me is three things: 1) A great movie to watch on a Saturday afternoon! 2) A somewhat crappy Laser Disc Atari arcade game I remember from youth! 3) The Namesake of the Web Browser I'm using right now!

[@feralhistorian]

It was shot at Ellsworth AFB (the decommissioned B-1 still has its tail code) though my ideal location for this one would have been Wright-Patterson 20 years ago, when their XB-70 was still outside. I never had a chance to play the old Firefox game. It looked amazing for its time, but I never came across one of the arcade machines.

[@alanburke1893]

Amazingly the game was available at Shannon Airport in Ireland. Professional civilian pilots queued up to play it. I remember begging my father to let me have another 50p coin to play it again. This was about a week's pocket money when I was 11. An Aeroflot pilot took pity and handed me a fist full of loose change. Thanks for bringing back that memory. 👍

[@Magnulus76]

My thoughts exactly. Firefox is a perfect example of Cold War American mythologizing. Building semi-mythological wonder-weapons like the Mig-25 fits in with Soviet and Russian strategic and tactical doctrine called Maskerovka. This goes all the way back to the time of the Tsars, when Potemkin built a fake villlage to impress the Tsarina. If you can't build it, make them think you did anyways.

[@robertkalinic335]

Like omg the high potency bs brew you made here...mig 25 never was mythological wonder weapon, that was what the west came to believe on its own. Its just extremely quick flying brick interceptor that makes sense cause Ussr was vast, even today mig31 enjoys some successes because of its uncommon advantages like big radar and speed. This has nothing yo do with diversion or completely unrelated Potemkin story that you think Russians have in their genes.

[@cynbartek9324]

My fav Eastwood film is the Western where he says "You insulted my horse. My horse doesn't like being insulted." 😂

[@mercuryredstone2235]

Actually it's his mule that was insulted, not his horse.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

Is that the one where he's a wandering preacher?

[@tylersperry9164]

@@NostalgicGamerRickOShay Pretty sure it's from the Yojimbo-inspired "A Fistful of Dollars". He explains to a group of thugs that although he knows they were just joking around, his mule doesn't. Now, if they would just apologize to his mule...

[@evanschackmann5312]

I used to read Air Force magazine in my high school library, cannot believe the pacifist librarian even ordered it. Thumbed through that issue and read that exact article! Fun seeing it again. I loved Firefox as a kid, great flick.

[@thesolarengineer]

Loved your review and commentary but don't forget ..."He wants you too, Malachi!" 😊🎉

[@springer1696]

I loved this movie as a kid and would Always rewind the dogfight scene at the end on vhs. Blue thunder was also one of my favorite cold war movies.

[@johnwalsh4857]

yah I rode a 1970s Lada Soviet taxi in Guangzhou China in 1995, well it was OK except for teh air conditioning was a computer fan taped to the dashboard .

[@johnwalsh4857]

Same here one of my most fave cold war movies of the cold war, another one is Falcon and the Snowman which I am currently watching. watched that one in the cinema back int he day and I believe I still have the original cassette tape of the soundtrack with Bowie and Pat Matheny.

[@zachs.murray6003]

I'm 33 now and saw these film around 10 yrs old. I didn't appreciate it then but now I might give it another watch

[@KnightofRome01]

I loved this movie as a kid as well, one of my favorite movies from Clint Eastwood. I actually enjoyed how vulnerable he seemed in it, but as you said the PTSD is kinda predictable for movie needs.

[@kellysmith1144]

It is, still, perhaps one of the most lethal looking aircraft ever designed. It's menacing as hell when we first see it in the hanger.

[@malakiblunt]

not to big up the soviets - but the F117 was only possible because of a soviet scientific paper on how to calculate radar refections - its also ironic that the mig25 was made from stainless steel while the SR71 was made from titanium purchased from russia

[@feralhistorian]

I always found it a bit odd that people either puffed up the Soviets as genius monsters bent on world domination or downplayed them as bumbling incompetents. As usual, the truth was much more subtle.

[@shadeburst]

Soviet cockpit ergonomics were so bad with vital instruments and switches placed wherever the last subcontractor in could find an empty space, that it would have taken an untrained pilot a few months to figure out how to fly any new type. Glass cockpit? Not at that time. Eastwood single-handedly made the movie work.

[@thomasstevenrothmbamd2384]

Wow! This is a great presentation.

[@grimandproper]

Agreed!

[@stephenwood6663]

One idea that you see in many of the better-thought-out sci-fi universes (and which, if I'm not mistaken, you might be giving a little nod towards in your discussion of better vs. more) is that, in general, a faction's main battle tank will tend not to be the best thing they can make, but rather, the best thing they can *standardise*. Fancy super-tanks are all well and good, but their battlefield life-expectancy will be greatly reduced if it's impossible to source spare parts for them.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

To be fair, a few pieces of soviet military tech (i.e. the T-64 Tank) where far more advanced then their western contemporaries.

[@baconsinatra8837]

"Is 1 M1 better than 5 T72s?" Gulf War says yes

[@ericjohnson2024]

In all fairness to the Soviet armaments industry, the t-72s that we faced in the first Gulf War were late 1960s monkey export models armed with well out of date ammunition. The Soviets would keep all the best stuff for themselves and export the ersatz version to any third world country dumb enough to buy it. Interestingly, the Iraqi Army was armed with the same self-propelled howitzers the US Army had that were built by Chrysler.

[@Grehmdel]

Outstanding video. If you're like me you probably grew up watching AIRWOLF, hint, hint.

[@johnny5805]

Thought control ? In 1982, IBM CPU's ran at 1MhZ ! Even at the time of writing, an Intel 14900K chip (running at 6GHZ) is incapable of anything remotely approaching reading thoughts in real-time.

[@Michael-yd5ry]

Watched it on a Pam Am flight from Tampa to London in October 1982.Great movie.

[@sincitytaoist3883]

I loved this movie when I saw it in theaters. It's one of those that as a kid you enjoy the spectacle but as an adult you appreciate it's subtler themes. You should do a video on The Philadelphia Experiment or Blue Thunder. Both good 80s movies that have subtler elements you appreciate more as an adult.

[@jonathanbaron-crangle5093]

The movie probably needs to be re-done, the book was a favourite of mine when a teen, there was also "Firefox Down" a sequel, & "Winter Hawk", where Gant is required to fly one of 2 Mi-24 Hinds on a mission of great importance (movie producers missed some opportunities with this series, but times changed, I guess) They definitely made it look cool, it still looks cool af (& the EuroFighter has canards lol)

[@midnightrider9016]

It could probably be redone using China instead of Russia. But they would probably screw it up like top gun

[@Gruntvc]

I recently watched this film and I liked it. Definitely a time capsule of its time, just like Red Dawn. For similar myth making of Soviet prowess, play Freedom Fighters. Originally released in the 2000s on Xbox, PS2, and GameCube. It was remastered on Steam. Worth a play.

[@romanmanner]

Complete with the ‘intellectuals are in on it, too’ trope. 😂

[@Michael-yd5ry]

The SR 71 was actually called the RS 71 but the American president at the time made a mistake in a press conference so they went with SR.

[@observationsfromthebunker9639]

Thanks for covering this movie! I have some nostalgia for it, since it was one of the first PG-rated movies I saw without parents, and the first Clint Eastwood movie I saw in theaters. It was impressive, and the special effects were decent, even if they weren't ILM. My friend who saw it with me was an ethnic Latvian, and he was quite mortified when the missile cruiser Riga was introduced! 😄 Of course I believed the hype, and the Soviets building Bond-villain level stuff, because it was 1982 and we all knew the Commies were working on superweapons. This was before the Israeli-Syrian War, Afghanistan, and Desert Shield/Storm ruined the mystique and threat. Oddly enough the Firefox was sort-of copied for G.I. Joe as a Cobra heavy fighter.

[@09rja]

Good video. At one point you bring up what we all wondered during the Cold War: would our quality beat their quantity? Fortunately, we never found out.

[@poon999able]

Man living in it and looking at it is a hell of an experience.

[@CliveNEWSTEAD-nu6fl]

I have always admired the fictional 'Mig 31'. I lament no kit manufacturer has offered an accurate injection moulded plastic product of this scene stealing design.

[@modelermark172]

As did I. I remember when there was a rumor that Monogram was going to come to our rescue with a, "kit from a movie," that we all thought was going to be the "Firefox," but it turned out to be the "Blue Thunder" helicopter. Not a bad kit - and to be fair, we were hoping someone would bring that out, too - but we wanted a "Firefox." Maybe my grandkids will come to my rescue and write the code for a 3D Printer to make this one . . . .

[@gieselats]

I totally agree and appreciate your thoughts. As Eastern-Germany feld back to West-Germany, the NATO got their hands on NVA Mig 29. and the engineers were impressed what they found in the airplane. Simple technic, no. Well experienced when they thought. My father was flight Engineer and he told me from his work back in the days… 1990. wow. This is a heck long ago. But the story ma father told me, i‘ll never forget. Keep up the good work.

[@lavenderlilacproductions]

8:55 remember when we all played F19 and that curved Liberty Bell design? See also Tom Clancys "Night of the Frisbees" in Red Storm Rising.

[@darrenvanderwilt1258]

I totally agree with your point about the military industrial complex’s ability to “raise concern” over some new design out of the east. Still, an SKS may not be as refined as an M1 Garand, but it can still do the job. Still going on today in order to justify huge defense spending (more like wealth transfer). I did 20 years in the Air Force as an F-15 mechanic, and had the opportunity to give a MiG-31 and Su-27 an up close walk around (still have the pictures) in 1990. Crude, rugged, and essentially sub-par by our standards. Where we had the edge was combined arms doctrine and training, along with the software/hardware interface. Totally digging your videos

[@joshuamoldenhauer4368]

I remember the design of the aircraft so much more fondly than the movie.

[@Tigershark_3082]

I think this has to be one of the best videos I've seen on this topic

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

Cool review. Hit all the points. Basically, a poor script but anything Clint touches turns to at least silver.

[@johnwalsh4857]

Good movie, watched it a few times in the 80s, on bootleg betamax and laserdisc. also read the book, including the sequel Firefox down. both were OK. Movie and book were good. decades later in Vancouver, I had a Russian watch the movie, he was laughing at the British actors playing the Soviets, he said their Russian was atrocious, and funny, it was like a Brit talking in Russian haha(well they were), but of course not as funny as Arnold talking Russian in Red Heat they found that the most amusing. . The Russian co worker of mine used to serve in the Soviet army in the 80s,(his last posting was Baku USSR, before the collapse, ), he stated that people in the Soviet army did not talk that way as they did in the movie, and he found it most amusing about the Soviet troops calling one officer Comrade col. hahhaahah.

[@feralhistorian]

Hunt for Red October is another one with atrocious Russian. I mean my Russian is on the level of an above-average chimp but I'm listening to some of that dialog thinking "even I know that's wrong."

[@johnwalsh4857]

@@feralhistorian yes comrad col. and your papers are not in order from Firefox was a laugh riot. same with the lines from Red heat haha

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

The thought control system was the one thing I didn't like about the movie. I had learned to forgive it's primitive special effects long ago.

[@Hispandinavian]

Saw that movie when I was in elementary school. Later in life I became a Russian speaker. It´s funny how ignorant I was bout that part of the world. I didnt know the difference between Moscow, or Kazakhstan.

[@sheets75]

I seem to remember reading that part of the problems the Germans ran into in WWII in their Russia invasion was their high quality equipment breaking down and the difficulty in getting replacement parts to the places most needed, which makes me wonder if the Soviets looked at that and decided to go with the "better to have a lot of cheap stuff that works well enough..." philosophy.

[@DZ-X3]

This reminds me very much of the 1960s Supermarionation puppet shows (but to be fair, everything does). The ones from around '68 start featuring some obvious Cold War enemies. Captain Scarlet is definitely not one of the reds, but he occasionally has to deal with the Eastern Alliance and their thickly accented English dialogue. The most obvious comparison is the first episode of Joe 90, where the World Intelligence Network sends an agent on a similar plot. Those crafty Russians have developed the MiG-242, which is simply the greatest aircraft in the world. The entire episode follows Joe as he steals one from Moscow, flies it past bases with surface-to-air missiles, fights off pursuing MiG-242s, and crosses the Russian border. Finally he lands the plane in Britain, where its secrets will be unravelled. Thus restoring the balance of power and maintaining world peace. Then the head of WIN explains "of course, there is no such aircraft as the MiG-242, and indeed no conflict between Soviet Russia and the west. I simply made that whole scenario up".

[@johnwalsh4857]

Yep not only the grain, the USSR economy survived by selling oil to western countries the very same countries they were ready to invades across the Fulda Gap. USSR collapsed due to its centralized poor mismanaged economic system. which could not last long and relied on export of its natural resources, when the oil prices in the 80s collapsed to 31 USD in the mid 80s from a high of 147 USD in 1980, the SOviet economy went down with it. massive Soviet spending went to maintaining perceived military parity with the USA but also maintaining all of its deadbeat warsaw pact , communist world puppet allies. Yep, I remember by Russian co worker telling me, that before the USSR collapsed the leaders of the three most important Soviet republics namely Russia, Ukraine and Belarus met and planned the break up, Kazakhstan found out and was let in on the talks. After the talks, the uSSR collapsed and the other Soviet republics were quite suprirsed and were not told , and were told in the end, good luck you are on your own. My co worker was stationed in Baku , Azerbaijan USSR, as part of Soviet troops sent to quell protests etc. when the USSR collapsed so did law and order in Baku collapsed as it was every man for himself, local militias fought each other. They did not target the Soviet troops since the troops had the best firepower. They were eventually repatriated later back to Russia and he emigrated to Canada in the 90s .

[@semperterra3235]

High tech themes were prevalent during the 1980s (Blue Thunder, Airwolf, Knight Rider, Street Hawk), including Firefox, also stuff about the Cold War and a connection to the Vietnam war was in there too. As a kid in the 1980s, I just liked the bit from when the plane takes off, the before bit didn't interest me much.

[@theccieguy]

Loved the movie and video game. It was on laser disk IIRC.

[@springer1696]

I remember the video game. It was in times square arcade back on the day.

[@RHampton]

Great review. Firefox Down was also worth the read. Not sure about the third book in the series.

[@feralhistorian]

I didn't even know there was a third book.

[@springer1696]

I so wish they made a sequel to this movie.

[@keithallver2450]

The book had a sequel.

[@djolds1]

Didn't want to debate the EMP technological utility of the MiG-25 tubes, but just HAD to comment on the engine and intakes at the end, hmmm??? 😃

[@BoraHorzaGobuchul]

No emp utility. Hardened electronics is the way

[@ghost7524]

Yea! I wish he didn't end the video off like that. I wanted to hear his explanation as to why they wouldn't work.

[@stizanley3987]

Where do you get those shirts, bro. I need one. Great video.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Pretty spot on analysis. Although NATO during the '70's and '80's was also pretty much a conscript ground army. (Apart from US & UK)

[@wirebrushofenlightenment1545]

Just to add that I also thought the location pieces-to-camera with the display aircraft was just inspired.

[@martinidry6300]

Solid, excellent review and analysis. US grain shipments to USSR was very surprising. Why no mention at the (ridiculously conceived) Soviet persecution of Jews?

[@neongenesisevangelion587]

All be honest I totally expected this to be about the old Nintendo franchise Star Fox for some reason.

[@geoffreyherrick298]

Do a barrel roll!

[@heidihobear]

The base parts were filmed at Edwards Air Force base

[@Philistine47]

It's been a few years since I saw the movie, and a few decades since I read the book; but I don't recall thinking the Soviet counter-intelligence reaction to Gant's mission was "slow." IIRC they had 36-48 hours to go from "business as usual," to "huh, that's weird," to "there appears to be a threat directed at our new top-secret fighter prototype," to "the Americans sent a particular retired ex-USAF pilot, whom we have ID'ed by name, here to steal our airplane, and his plan to get the airplane out more or less has to be thus and so." Clumsy, sure - I'm thinking especially of the decision to sacrifice a strategic bomber and its crew just to create a slightly better chance of hitting the stolen Firefox with a missile (and I _really_ don't know how that was supposed to work; but Craig Thomas was a spy writer, not an aviation expert) - but the story has them playing defense, and the clock doesn't start for them until they found the body of the smuggler Gant was impersonating. As for bureaucratic... Maybe? But especially in the book it seemed like there was a lot of scope for mid-level officers to be clever enough to figure out what was going on, and also influential enough to bring the entire ponderous apparatus of the Soviet State to bear on one guy in an airplane. And while the MiG-25 inspired the fictional Firefox, it wasn't unique in the reaction it provoked in the West: each new generation of Soviet fighter from ca. 1960 on produced a similar effect in its day. Partly, I think, because the MiG-15 had been such an unwelcome surprise over Korea, and nobody wanted to be caught the same way twice; and partly because what the Soviets allowed outside observers to see of their new aircraft was really intimidating. (Especially from the point of view of fighter pilots facing the prospect of having to fight superior numbers of what appeared to be superior aircraft.)

[@kurkkamambusu4063]

A friend of mine drives a Mini SUV Lada. He says it is more reliable than modern cars. It is very basic tough.

[@johnwalsh4857]

yah I was an avid military books reader from the 80s to the present. I read Soldier of Fortune a lot more though from the 70s .

[@KhanTrav]

Great look back. The Soviet Union was a thing back in the day, and most people forget. But it is fair to pick on the fact that they sucked at making cars...

[@ltGargoyle]

i watched this with the guys in my family when i was 8. i loved that plane and wanted to be a pilot because of this design. sadly my eyes would not allow for that. but still i have fond memories of going to the theater and being given quarters every week when we went to the pizza place so i could play the video game. the movie was utterly boring till clint stole the plane. at least to my 8 yr old self.

[@forzafunzone8575]

Lmao was hoping was a story on the rise and fall.of mozilla firefox

[@randy9664]

Great Video, funny and poignant.

[@theccieguy]

New sub

[@johnwalsh4857]

Su-57 is a lemon, yes it shot missles into Ukraine, bombed insurgents in Syria but it was all done from long distances enough so that enemy SAMs dont shoot it down but I did hear mechanical problems with the SU-57 so much that the Indians cancelled sales.

[@feralhistorian]

The SU-57 seems to mirror the F-35 in a lot of ways. It's either one of the best combat aircraft in the world, or a glitch-prone money-pit that can barely get in the air in peacetime, and then only at huge expense. I'm not sure what to think of either one at this point.

[@johnwalsh4857]

@@feralhistorian Yes the Russian basically are trying to develop a rival to teh F-35, a cheaper one but one that can stand up to the F-35, of course for export to the world market. Also the Indians had a huge hand in financing and tje avionics and onboard electronic development of the SU-57 but ultimately the Indians declined to buy it, possibly due to political and unresolved plane issues. Also the Russians with their declining economy and the war, as well as embargoes have only built 21 so far and all of them are test planes. and will probably not build more focusing the existing Russian industry to refurbishing the thousands of aircraft and AFVs that have been poorly stored several decades. Heck the Russians are deploying refurbished T-55s to Ukraine in large numbers and the last time the Russians did that(or the SOviets) was the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968.

[@wayneyd2]

Are you at Castle Museum?

[@feralhistorian]

I was at Ellsworth AFB, they have a relatively small museum by the gate. I hadn't heard of the Castle Air Museum before, but now that I looked it up I'll make a point of stopping in there if I'm ever anywhere Atwater.

[@johnwalsh4857]

well soviet military hardware is rugged simple to maintain and effective. also easy to mass manufacture. however yes by American and NATO standards, they are crude. Crude but effective.

[@masterofrockets]

hmmm I would question the effectiveness especially when looking at battles like Battle of Medina Ridge

[@johnwalsh4857]

@@masterofrockets well the quality of the users is a massive influemnce on how well the weapon does. Like Yemeni houthis capturing Saudi M1A2s intact since their crews ran away. or how about the Russians abandoning T-90s after running out of fuel.

[@BoraHorzaGobuchul]

Generally those using soviet equipment can't boast high standards of troop training and officer quality. Including society's/Russians.

[@johnwalsh4857]

yah I remember during the cold war , NATO analysts would continue to crow about Soviet military technology prowess, the masses of Soviet tanks taht were rady to smash thru the Fulda Gap in Germany and overrun NATO. back in the day when I watched Firefox and read the book, I actually believed the propoganda that the Soviets could make such a weapon. Back in the day, yep lots of scare stories about the Soviets winning the cold war and the whole world would be communists and how inept non communist armies were. Only until Reagan 80s were USA and NATO militaries were beginning to show muscle and yep that was the arms buildup of the 80s. complete with Pershings being deployed to western Europe. both sides conducting massive military exercises in Europe. Lots of near WW3 tensions, proxy wars flraing up even more in the world like El Salvador, Nicaragua, Angola, Lebanon, Iran-iraq, Cambodia, the Philippines etc.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

What's with the red panda on the thumbnail?

[@feralhistorian]

The red panda, sometimes called a firefox. When the opportunity to include one arose, had to do it.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

Fair enough. 😅 I always thought of Firefox as the flying fox bat. Or maybe because of the red fox being as fiery as it is.

[@jeffreyatlee8785]

Weird how the greatest period of real consumption built the Real Great American economy

[@ideologybot4592]

Can I just assume that you watch Lazerpig? Because you should.

[@feralhistorian]

I have been known to watch Lazerpig on occasion.

[@KerboDrive]

Any interest in the Ace Combat universe?

[@feralhistorian]

I'd forgotten about Ace Combat's setting, but now I'm starting tog et an idea . . .

[@justincholos.balisang6884]

​@@feralhistoriancheck out Sky Crawlers too if you have the time, it's pretty much Ace Combat but set in the mid 20th Century

[@KerboDrive]

@@feralhistorian Something about superweapons and military industrial cabals I'm sure.

[@chrissheffield5468]

Can you fly the plane?

[@BoraHorzaGobuchul]

Whaddya mean "not fair"? USSR/Russia can't make a reputable car, indeed. I know, being a Russian. Most cars are copies of western designs btw. Same with planes. Su25, yak38, just about any aircraft is a copy.

[@kwgm8578]

I have to disagree with the general consensus, or maybe not. This film had a premise that was difficult to justify. I'll be frank -- the film centered on a technology that was impossible for Soviets to accomplish two years ago, before full sanctions were pursued against Russia. Not even an iPhone 11, ductaped to the control panel could help. Its basis in Cold War paranoia of a "technology gap" in a time when glasnost provided us with a look at the current state of Soviet technology made the film a joke in US defense tech circles, so, maybe it was an interesting and fun film for younger persons, or those without any understanding of computer technology, but not for anyone in the business, which is why no one said a word against it, at the time. Let the.Soviets believe that our funny looking aircraft over the Nevada desert was controlled by thought, just like Donald Trump could declassify secret documents with his mind.

[@johnwalsh4857]

I remember there was this Filipino tv pastor I watched in Manila TV in the late 80s who proclaimed that Gorbachev , Gromyko and Cherenko were thje three heads of the great beast and Russia a magog the home of the anti christ, hahaah yep lots of anti Communist cold war propoganda in non commie TVs and media at the time esp. the 80s. The pastor was later arrested for attempted rape of a minor in the 90s. When they showed the TV mini series Amerika on Manila TV in the late 1980s the entire Philippine military command came out on tv to introduce the mini series and said that it was the duty of every Filipno to oppose communism haha. Also , right beside the TV station channel 9 showing Amerika was the Manila HQ of WACL , the world anti communist league headed by John Singalebub, former CIA officer. also right beside the WACL offices was the HQ of the Unification Church of Sun Yang Moon, another very anti communist organization.

[@johnwalsh4857]

the Russian air force of 2023 the successsor to the Soviet air force is a lemon, before the Ukraine war touted as the 2nd strongest and largest air force in the world, and much bigger than the Ukraine air force , well the Ukraine air force is still flying and doing bombing runs while the Russian air force lost a few hundred planes and decrepit. Russians launched several thousand missles at Ukraine(even launching Cold war Anti ship missles) cities and many missed due to poor crude guidance and poor maintenance. With the Russians bringing back the T-55 to service (the last time they used them in large numbers was the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 68) to send them to Ukraine(97 percent of the Russian army is est. to be deployed there), Im surprised they havent deployed Mig-23s or even the MIg-21s. Soviet built like 7K mig-23s and 12K Mig-21s even up to the 80s. The Mig-23 was the backbone of the soviet air force in the 80s, then again Soviet pilots hated the plane calling it a coffin.

[@feralhistorian]

I hesitate to write off the Russian military, especially based on the unreliable analysis we're getting from Ukraine. For example the RAF estimates Russian aircraft losses (including helicopters) at 176 as of last month while Oryx says almost 500 (I'm highly skeptical of their numbers in general). I see the Russian air force staying out of Ukrainian airspace for fear of being shot down by NATO-supplied AA, but I also don't see that as a significant issue on their part. It's turned into an artillery duel, there's not much to be gained by sending their top-tier fighters in when they can get the same results with missiles and howitzers. The same with the Ukrainian air force, it flies over Ukraine but almost all the activity inside Russia has been drone attacks. Neither side (Russia and Ukraine as a NATO proxy at this point) is willing to go all-in. The T-55s made me chuckle when I first saw the reports, but really if all you need is a mobile field gun that you don't really care too much about losing, they fit the bill nicely. It's almost the Russian equivalent of NATO countries giving '90s-era Bradleys and cluster munitions to Ukraine, disposal with less paperwork.

[@johnwalsh4857]

@@feralhistorian True about the T-55s and 62s being mobile field guns, in fact that is what they are being used for, but the Russians have lost several thousands AFVs int he war due to incompetence and criminal underestimation of the Ukrainians, Im not writing off the Russians, but the Ukrainians really performed a bit better than pre war assesments on their military. and as for drone attacks on Russia, Russia has always crowed about its formidable air defenses esp. in the Moscow area, well, yes the Ukrainian drone strikes are few and far between but they are increasing in numbers and this would have been unthinkable last year.

[@feralhistorian]

@@johnwalsh4857 It's an interesting conflict to be sure, particularly with how both sides seems to have forgotten how to do combined arms operations. There's a lot of burning armor from bonehead moves all around. Not surprising I suppose, there hasn't been much opportunity for anyone to gain real-world experience in mechanized European-theater war for generations. A lot of lessons are being relearned.

[@or_gluzman561Peace_IL_PS]

if we talk about the cold war than i have to ask do you know about the RTS world in conflict from 2008

[@feralhistorian]

I've seen it but I never played it. It was out during one of those periods when I wasn't doing any gaming. 07-08 was a busy time. But I always thought it sounded like an interesting premise.

[@kurtwoodard3209]

Very talented analysis on various topics. Funny too.