First 1200 km! - Pinion vs Rohloff w/belt - What's the BEST DRIVETRAIN? - side-by-side test / EPS 1

[@NomadsTrails]

Hi, some of you been mentioning a lab test which shows Rohloff is more efficient. Here is my opinion regarding that: I can't comment about that lab test : I am not a scientist so I can't judge any lab test. But above any kind of test for me it is the real life experience which matters at the end of the day. I am not cycling inside the Lab invironment. There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test. The reason sience is always keep developing, we never will have Ultimate sience. But real life and what we experience I think is the truth. But this is my humble opinion 😊

[@beaubolieu]

Well said!

[@MrHoundDoug]

Maybe because Rohloff is the hub, which would have a higher moment of inertia, it would requires more torque to accelerate which gives the sluggish feel. Even if at a constant speed the Rohloff delivers useful work a small amount more efficiently.

[@doubled5383]

100% agree. Not being an expert on both of these drives, but being a common-sense based middle-aged person with lots of wisdom, I would never choose the Pinion. It requires a special frame. If something ever went wrong, you are screwed. The whole bike is down. With the Rohlhoff, in contrast, worst case you just throw a different wheel on the bike if you are in a jam say in a foreign country. Easy decision.

[@tuttebelleke]

There is on average a factor 3 more belt tension with Rohloff than with Pinion, because the rear gear wheels differ that factor in number of teeth. So strange that this gets nowhere any attention? As also the whole drive train (and bicycle frame) is under 3 times more tension, this must have some implications on the efficiency? And this must also play in the lifetime of the belts?!?!? Anybody practical experience with that? PS: the efficiency comparison tests I found up to date are all executed with chains, not fully representative for the belt driven versions!!! Myself very happy driving Rohloff for 12 years already!

[@legitcrack6438]

Theres no need for ultimate science because theres already science. opinion ≠ truth. "There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test" such as?

[@gregknipe8772]

this has been a topic on mind for several years, how fortunate you are on top of the vibe and pointing toward great topics and information for us. thank you.

[@gregknipe8772]

yo, pinion does not make bikes, so list the bike you have used in this test, since bike frames are special made for pinion gear boxes.

[@hokehinson5987]

Outstanding real life test. Agree that lab testing only provides engineer level results NOT real world results. Life Is dice roll each day real knowledge IS squeezed from each event, THIS is the most useful elixar to drink! Its intelligence....that other stuff from books is just opinions concepts ....as a cyclist on a budget if money was no obstacle and serious touring was a goal would defer to pinion. Strongly agree with another post ... " much easier is replace drive wheel if needed.." much respect to both drive systems they are truely phonomenal! Cheers.

[@onedaywellallbedead4338]

I change the oil on my Rohloff every 10,000 Km with no problems. Was thinking of changing to a Veer belt drive system, so thanks for the info guys...😎👍

[@terrors88]

Great comparison! That's what the (bike) world was waiting for.

[@roamingaroundtheoutdoors]

I‘ve been cycling more than 30,000 km with my heavy loaded Pinion P1.18 & Gates CDX powered travel bike since 2017 and only have had twice an issue with a slightly leaking crank bearing seal, which have been fixed by Pinion within the 5 years guarantee as I came back home from my 2018 (8,800 km) and 2019 (6,000km) tours. I recommend to carry out Pinion’s “factory inspection” after basic guarantee has expired to preserve the reliability of the gearbox and obtain a 2 years follow-up guarantee.

[@alexmorgan3435]

Thank you for post and advice it is very useful.

[@oilcanracer6388]

I have 35,000km and my brother 42,000km in a few years on our pinion gearbox belt drive bikes. No problems other than needing to add oil every 2,000km to keep the gearbox from dragging in higher gears. We both still on the same belt also.

[@IbonEtxaiz]

Same problem with my C1.12 with 14.000km. Anyway, the pinion and belt combination is the best I've ever tried. it will not be the most efficient, but it is clean and durable

[@hans6304]

Well done, guys. Stay happy and stay safe!

[@sunreindeerfog]

So happy to see you guys on the road again! 🙌 Good idea for latest video too!

[@BikeTillDawn]

Thanks a lot guys for this comparison and the insights provided. By switching the bikes and cycling side-by-side you can really make a profound judgement! Besides, it’s so nice to see from you again after a long time. Looking forward to more winter videos! Keep going :)

[@Hertzultra]

Glad the two of you are getting sponsered... i need to catch up on your story so far xx

[@PabloUsunoff]

Great video!!! thank you for the info guys. safe travels!

[@Joseph-jy5lz]

Well done to both of you for taking on this tour. Great comparison review and I look forward to seeing the future episodes. Best wishes on your trip and have a safe and enjoyable tour

[@simonjohnson2897]

Brilliant video. I have a Pinion P.18 and I love it!

[@NomadsTrails]

Thanks, happy to hear that 😊

[@sallyrosser4590]

That was so interesting listening to your experience on using the both of these! thank you

[@NomadsTrails]

Most welcome Sally 😊

[@joeljohn4947]

Happy to see you both again💖. Love you. Stay safe

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you, you too! ❤️

[@Hirtshals999]

Rohloff has been unchanged for more then 20 years. Weight doesn’t matter if you have 50 kg on your bike

[@oilcanracer6388]

There is a weight limit to Rohloff hubs. I broke three in a row until they told me I was pushing too much weight. Switched to pinion gearbox same weight and no problems.

[@Hirtshals999]

@@oilcanracer6388. I have 2 hubs . One is 16, the other 11 years old. My weight is 100 kg. Cycle plus luagage 50 kg. Only once a problem with shifting. Freight and repair paid by Rohloff

[@kaffeemitcola6506]

Its a reliable system but I was not satisfied with it. The Pinion and Bosch can be the Rohloff Killers.

[@koenleijnen1900]

@@oilcanracer6388 Sounds kind of strange because Rohloff is also used on tandem bikes, double the power on the hub. In normal push bikes they use teflon bushings, if you are to strong Rohloff changes the bushings to metal bushings only on request and placed by one of the Rohloff distributors. There is no need for replacing the hub, because the busings are kind of a safety they made into the hub for riders who seem to be to strong. When you put to much power on it, the teflon bushings wear out or break. Rohloff places metal bushings standard in tandem bicycles. I drove both and had several rohloff bikes and until now two 1.18 pinion bikes, all made by Santos bikes. Where Pinion lacks is on there on the field service. Rohloff even tends to send a reapair man to you when the cost of shipping the wheel to germany or a distributor is to expensive. With Pinion I already had some troubles with a leaking gearbox, got it returned after three weeks but only after a lot of phone calls. Leaked again after two weeks and got a new gearbox after a couple of months negotiating with Pinion. Effeciency of Rohloff on internal resistance is better than Pinion. the only thing that's better by Pinion is the wider gear range. But you will need it because the Pinion bike is a lot heavier not only because of the gearbox but also because of the welding lugs and stiffer frame that is needed.

[@oilcanracer6388]

@@koenleijnen1900 tandem is different in its total power to hub not torque. Power is applied much slower. I have heard in tandem hub failures as well.

[@fademasterfade227]

Great comparison side by side; I look forward to updates. Safe riding!

[@markmoreno7295]

Both the Industry 9 Hydra and the Onyx sprag clutch system hubs are good. Onyx is a bit heavier but silent. Hydra does make sound, but can be quieted to near silence depending on how much grease you daub on the pawls. Both are pricey, but as mentioned help the Pinion gearbox perform better.

[@nevalth]

Good content as always, watching both of you always bring me joy

[@channeltootv8838]

Been waiting for you two, keep safe

[@ichmh1871]

very good report, first hand experience, thx so much

[@NomadsTrails]

Most welcome 😊

[@felipericketts]

Great comparison of the two systems, both of which are great. I was recently considering which I would get for myself and chose the Pinion with the Gates belt drive. Seems you like it better over all so maybe I made the right decision. Two important things you mentioned: apparently the Pinion is less effort to pedal, and the Rohloff needs an oil change if you submerge the rear hub. Two very important considerations that I was not aware of when I was thinking about what to get for my self. Love your videos and look forward to enjoying your adventures! :-)

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you 😊, indeed both are really well made systems. Hope you enjoy of your pinion 🙌

[@carlcarlamos9055]

What happens if you submerge the Pinion gearbox?

[@brianoreilly239]

I have a Roberts bike with Rohloff gearing and a Tout Terrain 5th Avenue with a 12 gear Pinion . Both excellent German precision engineering gearing systems, but for me, the Pinion shades it due to the weight being the bottom bracket thus making the bike balance better and with a loaded touring bike easier to ride and handle

[@emanuelblei7699]

Hi Brian, may I ask how the central position of the opinion makes it better for a loaded touring bike? I would have thought that in this case the position doesn't matter.

[@brianoreilly239]

The weight of the Pinion gearbox being located centrally on the bike frame near the bottom bracket gives the bike a better balance thus making it easier to handle and more comfortable to ride.

[@richardwales58]

Great to see you both again I think you have terrific bicycles for your trip this time

i use a rohloff by myself, with drop bar conversion set from gebla rohbox. 7 yearsa from now without any maintanance (just suirtlube for the chain, didnt even do the recommended oil changes). for me, an absolute no brainer. It just works.

[@NomadsTrails]

Big Thanks for the input and the first hand experience. we will test these bikes for long time and we will see how these systems will perform in a long term :)

[@IS-xk3iq]

Wonderful explanation on the two systems via empherical data.

[@Regantdarcy]

Great comparison. It sounds like Pinion is the way to go for me as well. 👍🏼

[@adammacer]

I've just discovered 'Veer' non-continuous belt drives - can be retro-fitted to any bike with no frame modifications required.. belt splits to pass thru frame and is held together with rivets/pins.. don't know how it compares to Gates for longevity & reliability but it was a useful find..

[@pingwingugu5]

I've seen them as well but some folks on forums were mentioning that they are build without the center gap. Similar to first generations of Gates belts that had problems with getting clogged with dirt, skipping and even snapping. So I am waiting for some reviews on Veer system.

[@freedomwon2004]

Great to see you on the road again. Please be safe out there. Thank you for sharing your adventure with all of us. Both seem like awesome bikes. Your in our thoughts and prayers! 🙏❤🚴‍♂️

[@NomadsTrails]

Thanks 😊

[@frazersmith5101]

Really excellent review. Thank you!

[@permanenceinchange2326]

I own a vintage bike with a Rohloff hub, hasn't let me down so far :). I never had spontaneous shifting. The clicks are in the hub, once you have shifted gear the cables are not under tension. Maybe your shifter was a bit out of position. But I can't tell for sure - I ride with dropped bar shifters, and they work different. Great comparison btw.! Have fun on all your trips!!!

[@noproblem2big337]

Interesting, did you have to do much to make it fit and are you running a rubber belt?

[@permanenceinchange2326]

@@noproblem2big337 Nothing in special. The classic Rohlof has got a width of 148mm, so it fits in an old frame. I run it with a chain though, since you can't open the frame for a belt. Shifting is done with SRAM shifters combined with a Rohbox transmission at the rear axle.

[@ascot1049]

Brilliant, if anyone can test them it's you two .

[@guritno2012]

wow, you both are already in Arctic Zone. Good luck, have a wonderful Bike Touring.

[@derunglaublichemrt]

Viele Grüße aus Köln! Ein sehr schöne Video! Vielen Dank!

[@RSLtreecare]

Really fantastic... A very informative experience. I am looking at a belt drive bike, but that's just for home, cargo carrier. We, the family shop and play around a network of small farms. Homeschool and meet up with other groups. Take care...

[@rhett7716]

Great review guys.... Thankyou !!👍

[@albertbatfinder5240]

Great review with interesting, unexpected findings. Time will tell if that icy weather has any influence on the result. Clearly the belt drive is a winner no matter what. Anyway, good to see you guys back.

[@NomadsTrails]

Yes indeed time will answer many questions 😊

[@krussek]

An idea for a new experiment: let's switch the rear wheels and compare Rohloff + pinion vs single speed :D

[@NomadsTrails]

Brilliant! 😂

[@حسینرجبی-ط7و]

Hi . Hi

[@joramvandervorst7715]

@@carbon12atom Eric from 'De Vakantiefietser' did this years ago as an april 1st joke with a P18 and Rohloff, claiming a new record for a 252 speed bike 😁

[@pettergustad]

Thank you for the informative video. I've been cycling with Rohloff for 15+ years and I love it. I've been using a belt during the past 6-7 years and I think it's great since since maintenance is easier and it don't stretch like a chain. BTW during low temperatures (less than -15°C) I notice that the oil gets a bit thick so the shifting is a bit slower, but still not a big problem. However, I'm using the bike to commute to work and I've been considering getting a Pinion bike in order to have two regular wheel sets ready, one with studs and one without in order to quickly swap back to summer tires during mild periods throughout the winter. Two back wheels will be pretty expensive in the Rohloff case as it will include two hubs.

[@michael-lt2lf]

Fantastic stuff! Thank you both!

[@ladamyre1]

I just bought a Priority 600 and it has the Pinion C1.12 gearbox and a Gates Carbon Belt drive system. If I were restricted to one bike I had to live with forever it would be one with the Pinion and the Gates belt. Together they make a bike almost maintenance free: all you have to do is wash it and change the oil once a year or about 7000 miles. Three years ago I bought a Priority Turi. It has the Gates belt too but it has an Enviolo rear hub that is a new technology and is a dream to ride with infinitely variable 300% ratio. I put 7000 miles on it without any trouble: wash it and no oil change because the hub is sealed and not serviceable. It's a street bike and has thin tires so it doesn't do well in gravel which is why I bought the 600. In any case, the Gates belt drive is the greatest. In my opinion Derailleurs are for racing and for gearheads that just like to constantly have to work on their bike. I'm NEVER going back to exposed chains and cogs again. Oh, by-the-way. To keep the belt from wearing the cogs, use corn starch on the belt. It is the slipperiest dry lubricant there is, is as cheap as dirt and is non-toxic.

[@Luigi13]

Good? I like the straight forward hands on experience and examples that you both offer in the video. Great looking bikes as well. Cheers.

[@nadgeemark]

Great to see you both back guys. Ride safely 🌻

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you Mark! :)

[@dpierre]

Dear Peyman and Matilda, It's nice to hear from you (I hope Matilda will have recovered very soon) and thank you for this return, always so professional, with all the passion of those who live thanks to their bikes ^^ I bought in 2013 a steel bike with the 8 speed rear gearbox in dry dock (i.e. oil free, lighter and no leaks!) It’s a Shimano ALFINE! It was the cheapest version. The belt is the old (the 1st) version, narrower and without the cut in the middle (but no less solid, the new ones like yours have the advantage of not being able to derail but mine in the end never accidentally went out). I drove between 10 to 13 thousand KM with it and bought it second-hand, almost new. One of the first things I liked was the much better performance than with a chain, especially when you have to tackle a mountain pass. We feel that we go up more easily^^ Zero noise! It's magical, especially at night to approach wildlife ... My 2nd travel bike is a model with chain + 7 gears x 3 chainrings (including a rear overspeed which is like a 4th chainring, brilliant but rare because vintage). I also enjoy riding as it’s a frame ‘en col de cygne’ classic in Nederland. New bikes (e-bikes too) with chain with 10, 11 or 12 speed sprockets are unbearable because they make noise all the time and especially when coasting and in addition the chains break very quickly. Nothing beats a belt system! Cleanliness, no grease, no stains on the bags and cases ... The belt is a revolution and silence is priceless:) - Translate from French, sorry for some ‘tournures’…

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you so much! Very interesting, and fantastic to hear you got such distance on a first version belt! And the silence is fantastic indeed 😊

[@dipladonic]

After many years of persistence with cogs and chains (what a real pain in the arss) I too now have the 8-speed Shimano Alfine with a belt (on a Boardman URB 6.9, Urban Hybrid bike). Bloody amazing.

[@paulbritton7204]

very interesting. Surprised to hear that the oil in a Rohloff needs an oil change if you take it through a river. take care paul

[@johng1857]

Cycling About mentioned that they did a lab test that showed that the Rohloff was more efficient. Interesting that your real world use has a different subjective feel. I would be curious to hear why do you guys think you have differing opinions?

[@olivierzuber8787]

Cycling About used a P18 for his comparison and Nomadstrails have the more recent C12 from Pinion. So that may be part of the explanation.

[@NomadsTrails]

Hi, I can't comment about the lab test you mentioned above.But Just calling an information lab test it dosen't mean it an Ultimate truth. Also I am not a scientist so I can't judge any lab test, also it is important to know if the lab test has been done independentley or not. But above the all for me it is the real life experience. At the end of the day we are not cycling inside the Lab invironment. There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test. The reason is sience is always keep developing, we never will have Ultimate sience. But real life and what we experience I think is the truth. But this is my humble opinion 😊

[@ianbing]

in my opinion its the noise in 7 and 8 and light grind vibration from 7 down on the Rohloff that gives that feeling of drag

[@NomadsTrails]

@@ianbing No it is not, I cycled with both, many thousand km and I disagree with you 😊. Rohloff feels less efficient.

[@TheQuietBeast]

I love your video, just what I was looking and well made. Thanks for that!

[@schwarzzelter7161]

Nice to see you two again! I would be very curious what are you're next plans to travel, how it's going with the snow and temperatures and where you are at the moment! Best wishes and safe travels!

[@mohanj5288]

Finally a video😍😍

[@alasdairhill5166]

You two are incredible testing and comparing in those conditions cracks me up . I'm very interested in the rohloff for e bikes I think it's the way forward

[@alexmorgan3435]

E bikes are for lazy people.

[@MusikPiratCH]

@Alasdair Hill I chose the Pinion even for an e-bike with an Alber Neodrives Z20. Those rear motors are much better for the material Gates drive! I also made bad experience with a Bosch motor which stopped working about the last 20 km before our final stop (before returning those rent bikes)! Therefore I knew no middle motor for my own e-bike! 🤔 Of course those e-bikes with middle motor are the most sold! 😇

[@dog-so1vj]

Excellent video. Great info.

[@vinyltheif]

I recommend extending your front mudguards with a piece of thin plastic (a 2 litre cola bottle cut accordingly works well), it greatly reduces front-wheel muck being thrown onto the belt (or in my case the chain).

[@alexmorgan3435]

Or fit a rear mudguard on the front.

[@vinyltheif]

Could do, although using the longest I could find (SKS) I also extend the rear.

[@GordoGambler]

Stupid idea to use stiff plastic. Far better to use flexible old rubber boots. They have a perfect shape that always stays that way. I can ride in puddles all day and have very little splash on the frame. Lately I have also had one in front of the back wheel, it hangs lower than the chain to keep it and the BB clean. Fenders made the last 30 years are mostly cheap and pathetic.

[@vinyltheif]

I started using cola bottles whilst on my England to Singapore tour as easy to find, lasting for many months, I removed them when I reached south east asia as very little rain. SKS mudguards are the best, made well & strong.

[@rhett7716]

@@vinyltheif how do u attach the plastic Mark ??

[@andreagrasselli1169]

Thank you very much, very useful content!!!

[@tedlovesbikes]

Very well done video. Bravo

[@indrajitgomastaigproductio8915]

Missing Your exciting n beautiful world tour.

[@WHS_reviews]

The Rohloff is indubitably more efficient than the pinion p1.18. If the C1.12 is more efficient that still would only mean a few percent at most as at say 100W (touring power output), where the efficiency of the Rohloff is about 93%, a single speed about 97% so the c1.12 could at best be a few percent better than the Rohloff hub, as it has to be less efficient than the single speed. Do you really feel a few percent difference when riding? Highly unlikely. Other factors including psychological factors and riding position are more likely the cause, perhaps the type of oil used in each gives a lot of friction in extremely cold temperatures (say -15C and lower). I don't feel that the Rohloff is heavy going after having ridden on my other touring bike with 3x9 derailleur. But it does make more noise, and on good roads I feel vibrations in the pedals/saddle from the hub. Such factors can influence the perception of people. The most likely cause for the bikes feeling different is that they are different in riding position. From the screenshot of the video the bike with Rohloff has the saddle more forward, with a steeper seat tube angle and a shorter virtual top tube. As most riders except some fast riders (e.g. triathlon) prefer the saddle more to the rear, this can definitely influence how you feel the bike rides compred to the bike with pinion with seemingly a longer tube tube (virtual top tube I estimate from the picture, ca. 2-3 cm more on the bike with pinion, maybe a part of this is caused from the camera angle but I estimate the difference is real), and that position will make you ride in a more aerodynamic position which is not just good for fast riging but also makes it easier to put out more power without you feeling you need to do much more effort. So, 1) how do you determine that one bike is more efficient? 2) At what temperatures did you test? 3) have you compared the riding positions and whether you like the position on one more than on another and compared with another bike with say derailleur?

[@marianocelentano2864]

Great useful info. Many thanks for sharing and happy ride!!! : )

[@mrhounddog8271]

This was a very entertaining and informative video. Do you feel that you gave up anything with the C1.12 while touring that you may have gotten from the P1.18? Keep pedaling and making great videos.

[@samuelmjlfjell]

Wow , you guys look so good with all the snow. amazing that you keep going through the snow.

[@oilcanracer6388]

Your gonna find with the pinion gearbox that the higher the gear the more a slight drag you will feel, this is normal. But as the oil in the box mysteriously disappears the harder it will be to pedal. I add 10cc to my pinion every 2,000km and then change oil every 10,000km. If you wait 10,000km to change oil it will be almost dry. Other than being harder to pedal there is no wear on gears due to lower oil. Also I currently have 35,000km(my brother has 42,000km on his) on my belt and it still looks almost new. My spare is still in my bag just waiting.

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you for your input :) i will keep an eye on the oil to see if it happens to ours also or not. can i ask you do you have P line or C line? we will publish a serious of videos over next years regarding this project, we will keep all of update with all the details 😊

[@oilcanracer6388]

@@NomadsTrails I have the P18

[@Harry-Hartmann]

A Very Good Video 👌🏻👌🏻

[@ina_bauble8220]

Thanks u soo much for the video after soo Man y days

[@NomadsTrails]

Most welcome 😊

[@aliejazm.hassani8892]

U both r an inspiration..I wish I could accompany u but I don't think so that u wil accommodate anyone in ur journey even if he has deep wish to join u

[@Param741]

Gr8 to see u back

[@NomadsTrails]

Great to have you! 😊

[@anb1142]

So close to 100K Good luck

[@teckin139]

Love this video, me and my friend were considering both of these for our trip before the pandemic hit.

[@pierrrejette9023]

From sand to snow. Great to see you guys back on the road.

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you 😊

[@jc10747]

Engagements are a big issue for standing starts in a steep incline, esp. in mountains with risky drop off. DT has separate kits for adding more engagements, but carry spare. Hope are good, but carry spare prawls and always get steal hub body, but very easy to service. Grease and oil are main culprits in cold…park high performance grease (-29C) chased with a few drops of Muck Off CERAMIC oil = excellent for bearings etc in super cold. Check temp of stock oil in R and P units. Check fat bike sources, but I’ve never seen R or P tested in winter! Excellent point about R rear weight as carry overs are common on trails, and lifting from side lie (don’t use the saddle as a handle!). Publish fore/aft weight distribution when packed, etc., perhaps.

[@jakeadams0412]

Hope Mrs. Nomad is feeling much better.

[@holyfox94]

Can’t wait for my new bike with the Rohloff hub.🥳 It’ll be a Riese& Müller e bike with E14. It will shift down automatically at stops. Must be great in big city traffic. Also, with the belt: no more chain cleaning, no oily pants,... how cool is that!

[@Lordoftheflatbush]

I have to superdelite with Rohloff. Its an amazing bike: high quality components, maintenance free, comfortable and efficient.

[@x7j4]

Good review!! Thanks.

[@NomadsTrails]

Thanks for watching!

[@shaikhabdullah5281]

Happy to see you safe Love From india

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you ❤️

[@albertdesalvo7273]

I do believe the Rohloff has been scientifically proven to be more efficient than the Pinion. I have a Pinion P1.18 fitted to my recumbent. It has been totally reliable in the 3000 miles I have so far covered with it. I'll be buying an HP Velotechnik Streetmachine GTE this coming summer and will have a Pinion P1.18 gearbox fitted to that too. Great channel. Happy and safe travels. Sub'd & Voted.

[@NomadsTrails]

Thanks Albert, has been some date and lab tests out there which is telling Rohloff is more efficient. But the real life conditions and the lab conditions are not the same. Science always keep improving, so the lab which the test has been done might not represent the real conditions i cycle. Imo after cycling with both these systems, Pinion is more efficient compare to Rohloff. Wishing you a fantastic 2021 😊

[@radekkuszyk]

The comparison you likely mentioned is this one of Alee Denham. On his test the Rohloff is about 4% more efficient than Pinion, but P1.18 one. Here they compare C1.12 (lighter, less gears to spin) to Rohloff - that makes difference.

[@legitcrack6438]

@@NomadsTrails "real life" conditions, gtfo, how much is pinion paying you? they sure liked your video enough to stick it on their website. "Science always keep improving, so the lab which the test has been done might not represent the real conditions i cycle." Dumbest shit ive read all year.

[@crapnameonly]

Peyman and Matilda, thank you for your comments on the Rohloff IGH vs the Pinion gearbox. I have been quite puzzled by the results of efficiency tests that Alee cited, and that others keep bringing up. I have to think that there's a lot of misinformation out there because of this, and I can't help thinking that there was something amiss in the tests that Alee quotes. The thing is, losses in a transmission come only from friction at the bearings and gear meshes. More bearings = more losses, more gear meshes = more losses. How many gears there are, how fast they are spinning, or how large they are has nothing to do with energy loss, only rotational inertia. The Rohloff has up to three epicyclic stages, each with at least six gear meshes and four bearings. (I haven't got one to take apart and count). It just doesn't seem likely, from an engineer's perspective, that the Rohloff can be more efficient than a Pinion since the later has far fewer bearings and gear meshes. At a minimum, a Pinion should be at least as efficient as a Rohloff, but more likely more efficient. Your comments about feeling "drag" in the Rohloff and not the Pinion supports this. For those who are interested, I did find one efficiency study for a P1.12 on line, and while the experiment should have been repeated more times to check on experimental error, the results do show that the Pinion is quite a bit more efficient than the results that Alee quotes would indicate: zone2.asee.org/sessions/program/3/78.pdf

[@j.foobar1764]

In all fairness, wasn't Alee comparing the 18-gear Pinion to the Rohloff? Peyman and Matilda are comparing the 12-gear Pinion. I'm not saying that this makes a big difference, but it might.

[@TheGeeoff]

Super interesting. So many people say that the Rohloff is draggy so it makes me suspicious of Alee's results too. Of course Alee is great and this is no diss on him.

[@mohammedaslam3862]

!nice to see you guys..... God bless you

[@venithmk5449]

You guys are doing well

[@joseantoniomorales7114]

Hello guys im follow you before long time , i like your trip and your voice ,style etc come on !!!!!!

[@NomadsTrails]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@buffalomind6838]

Thank you for your comparison. I will now pronounce Rohloff as you’ve said it as any other way is wrong now that I know.😎

[@Michael-wn4jj]

Wow, great tour, please keep healthy! You are fine with that but heavy or big riders should be aware of Pinion supports driver wight of max. 110 kg.

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you 😊, as far as we are informed there is not such a weigh limit with Pinion or Rohloff. Our load is way over 110kg on each bike. Didn't have any issues 😊

[@Michael-wn4jj]

@@NomadsTrails Please download and check C-line owner's manual from Pinion's homepage. At page 6 it doesn't mention total weight of bike+man+gear but rider+clothes weight only. I think that weight limit is caused by the bearings inside Pinion when a heavy rider is standing on the pedals. That can't happen to the Rohloff hub which is located in back wheel.

[@NomadsTrails]

@@Michael-wn4jj thanks for the info, indeed i did read it twice but couldn't see what you mentioned in the C line manuel. But I am not the most patient reader for sure 😅. I will ask regarding this matter from Pinion and get back to you. Also if you don't mind please write down exactly where this is mentioned in the manual. Many thanks 😊

[@Michael-wn4jj]

@@NomadsTrails pinion.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/C1_08_2018_en_WEB.pdf Page 6, Technical data , in the table sheet at the end of that page, last line: Rider weight max. ...

[@NomadsTrails]

@@Michael-wn4jj yes indeed you are totally right. I noticed it now. Good point. Thanks for pointing it out 👍

[@modulaeris7983]

Would love to hear about the conparison between the loop bar and butterfly bars you used to have! Great to see you ridin' again! 😎👍

[@GordoGambler]

Nice videos. IMO, You both need a chaincase, belt or not. Dirt, sticks, or ice will for sure bugger things where you are going. I made my case with CF and some stainless metal where it joins, tight fit. Wasn't easy to make, but it will last forever. It does have a stupidly big hole because of the alu crankarm though. So fine dust still gets in the chain. I still haven't seen a downhill race between these two to test drag. I have compared my Rohloff to a SA XL-RD5w. The Rohloff is 3 mph slower, 43 vs 46 mph. The Rohl IS getting faster with age. I have no problems at all with my Rohloff14 on my 120 lb heavyweight, for 17,200 miles so far. I'm 170 -185 lbs. For a front hub I have a SA XL-FDD dyno DRUM brake, that has done 26,000 flawless miles. You should as well. ZERO to fix or worry about in any weather. Only one side bearing went dry and it ate 4 balls, LOL. It is now on it's third bike, a steel roadster. I then built a new wheel the same, for on the tour bike. I don't know how the hell you ride in cold and snow. I wouldn't last 5 minutes. 3C for 6 hours in China mountains was bad enough for me. One of those days I was riding on wet clay and needing my rain cape on. I was sweating like hell too. Not good on cold days.

[@topherpalmtree]

Would love to see power pedal readings vs wheel power readings on both. The claims on rohloff’s and pinion’s websites seem to contradict the claim that rohloff is less efficient. Haven’t dived intuitively the pinion efficiency charts yet though. Love the content!

[@jwbodey]

1:40 You have a 60 teeth front cog and 19 rear cog on the rohloff. Did I hear correctly? Thank you for sharing your experience!

[@davidsharp5370]

I was wondering about that too. Seems like quite high gearing for a fully loaded touring bike on rough terrain!

[@reinhardulbricht1131]

@@davidsharp5370 with their wheels/tyres this results in distance per full pedal circle from 1,84m ( could be better) to 9,61m (may be never used...)

[@davidsharp5370]

@@reinhardulbricht1131 Wow! So a low of 23 gear inches and a high of 120 gear inches!!! You are likely spending a lot of time in the lower (less efficient) gears which could explain your thoughts on the Rohloff gearbox. It would be really interesting to significantly lower the belt wheel to rear cog ratio and see if you still think the same.

[@thedude2178]

Great to hear from you again

[@MiccaPhone]

1:49: Surprised to hear that Pinion appears to be easier to ride/more efficient, because acc. to lab measurements Rohloff is allegedly 4% more efficient, which is a significant difference. Do you still have the same impression at higher temperatures? Any update on this (ref. 2:36)?

[@NomadsTrails]

Indeed it is interesting. But i guess the real life conditions csn be different than lab. Regarding ur question, we will publish a second episode of this comparison in the future. We need to cycle witj both of the bikes for a while. 😊

[@MiccaPhone]

@@NomadsTrails thanks, i book your channel so I won't miss out :-)

[@Deplissee]

@@NomadsTrails Any update on this? I have to make a decision for a new bike and feel sitting between the chairs a bit.

[@buckroger6456]

@@Deplissee I would say you can't really go wrong with either one. I'm planning on using a Rolhoff for a hardtail Mtb. My reason for the Rolhoff is I just don't like that little play the Pinion has before it engages the rear wheel.

[@abilashramalingappa9764]

Thanks for posting ✌️✌️ Good information

[@thanadorlx9179]

it might be the drag difference comes not from the gearbox but from the belt setup... I tried both as an ebike and went for the electric rohloff E14. And in germany you get a lifetime warranty for the gearhub :d

[@KoenStrobbe-fv5us]

A couple of things you failed to mention, with the pinion you can easily swap wheels, depending on the type of terrain you want to cover, while with the rohloff you are pretty much tied to one wheelset. Second, if you need to walk along your bike, the rohloff keeps the pedals turning, while the pinion does not.

[@philw4625]

Interesting. bench tests suggest that Rohloff is more efficient, yet when you ride one, it does feel a bit 'gritty' in lower gears. Love the idea of a pinion - shame it needs so much bespoke parts alongside.

[@NomadsTrails]

Yes indeed it is. It is hard to ignore the resistance. Dunno why there is this difference but at the end of the day we are not cycling inside the lab environment right? 🙃

[@blobbfish9412]

@@NomadsTrails If yours is a factory new Rohloff it needs some time "breaking in". The gritty feel in the seven lower gears comes from the third planetary gear that engages in those gears. It will fade away within a couple of thousand kilometers and the grinding gets replaced by a silent buzzing sound. Oh, and if you constantly ride in sub zero temperatures, have you tried replacing the standard oil with the lighter flushing oil?

[@DavideTravelli]

Nice review!

[@NomadsTrails]

Thank you! Cheers! 🙌🏽

[@mysurlytrucker7510]

I wonder if with this cold your in that oil thickness the viscosity is being affected and and is making the gearbox feel sluggish? But it's really a thickening of the oil freezing a little.

[@marcinsykut497]

I'm glad that you are back on the road again. I bought pinion bike recently because of no maintenance. I hope changing flats will be as easy as regular bikes. What's your experience about it ? Thank you for great video as always.

[@PRH123]

Thank you very much..! Just the kind of review I have been hoping for. I live in a very cold and wet climate and so the test conditions answer just the kind of questions that I have. Down to what minimum temperature did you ride..? Thanks...!!

[@letsgoletsgoletsgoletsgoletsgo]

ONYX has Infinite engagement point so amazing

[@thanveermhd7660]

Was eagerly waiting for neaxt video after gambia

[@NomadsTrails]

Thanks 😊

[@rhysstatham7407]

I’ve owned two Rolhoff bikes I agree with your findings there is a drag in efficiency and it does make noise in the lower gears but I prefer this system over derailure . Did you have to thin the gearbox oil in the very cold conditions.

[@jwbodey]

Hi Rhys. My wife and I have belt drive Rohloff equipped bike for over a year now, we noticed the drag and noise, especially at low speed. We were told this would reduce in time. Did you notice the drag and noise reduce at all? We too much prefer this system to chain & derailleur.

[@rhysstatham7407]

@@jwbodey Hi John we owned a Thorn tandem fitted with the Rohloff hub gear which has the ordinary steel chain not belt drive which we bought from Thorn Cycles in Bridgwater UK in 2016 and put about 4000 miles on it in 5 years and would say it was still noisy in low gears and definitely has more drag compared to derailure system which didn’t get any easier over time. That said I would still choose a hub gear over a derailure the advantages far outweighed the negatives. Having said all that in early 2020 we bought electric tandem from Moustache called Samedi which means Saturday , only it’s a derailure set up unfortunately but a fantastic machine.

[@NomadsTrails]

Acording to Rohloff oil needs to be mixed with cleaning oil when temperature goes over -10°c . No we didn't do this because most of the time temperature was between -5 and 10 °c 😊

[@jwbodey]

@@NomadsTrails It will be interesting to examine the oil in the Rohloff when it comes due for change. It would be interesting to see if the extreme cold conditions if any more moisture than normal has ingress the hub. It is my understanding that any gearbox works better when warm - our car has auto trans the oil of which is interconnected to the cooling system radiator of the motor for warming the transmission oil when cold as well as keeping the the motor and transmission from overheating.

[@oilcanracer6388]

I ride my pinion gearbox in temps from 0 to 100F and no difference in pedaling with the same oil viscosity

[@MrQuestful]

I love this and envy your adventure!

[@NomadsTrails]

Thanks for watching, happy to hear you like it!

[@MrQuestful]

@@NomadsTrails what your doing is a trip I’ve wanted to do as well. I’ve been an avid fan of gearbox systems and I see merit in both systems, it’s all a matter of priorities & where you’re starting from. I think if you’re the kind of person that already has a few different frames, a rohloff may have more value to you because you may be able to convert it to different bikes. But if you’re starting from a clean slate and buying in to the market for a gearbox system, the Pinion may be easier to create a super versatile machine. I think it’s a big value add to be able to have different wheel sets for different terrains. You could have one bike that went from a 38mmx700 to a mid-fat 3”x 27.5”, maybe even wider.

[@elachichai]

Wouldn't trigger shifters be less stressful on the wrist?

[@Marcelo7011]

Eu possuo um ROHLOFF a 7 anos em minha Montain Bike e estou extremamente satisfeito pq já rodei por volta de uns 21.000km e somente com as Manutenções básicas o Rohloff é um Relógio Suíço em câmbio para bicicletas, minha bicicleta é uma RockMontain aro 26" ful suspension modelo ALTITUDE 70 ano 2011 e por usar o Rohloff consigo andar com igualdade junto com as 29"

[@lucablesi4087]

Thank you for your contents! Can you give us a quick update about this test comparing pinion vs rolhoff? Especially about the drag perceived in warmer condition. Thank you so much!