First EVER 3 WAY Mix Comparison With Panorama Mastering! (inc Paul Third's New Secret Mix Method)

[@panorama_mastering]

Big thanks to Paul and Ed for having me on this episode. It was a real pleasure! Wishing all the best to them in their endeavours and to also the audience and community that surrounds this podcast. A great community spirit filled with passionate and driven engineers and producers!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Nicholas, you’re a gentlemen! Thank you for contributing your time and energy to this. People seem to be getting a lot out of the episode, which is great!

[@Aquiiin]

Ed's Mix for me muuuch better here, technically but more importantly so - musically and emotionally! And that instantly. Also never left me hanging or had lacks for me until the end! Good job!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thank you 😊

[@rhettmoir]

Awesome video gents. Great mixes all round

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks for listening!🔥

[@chrisibbetson]

Love the mix comparisons! Nice to see Nicholas!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Nich’s a legend. Such a smart mixer

[@1erwayne]

Great video!!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@ronfrancois]

Nicks mix: A vocal orientated pop mix that is unwieldly balanced. Ed's mix: A more traditional guitar driven mix. Wetter and a little old fashioned. Paul's mix: An absorbing, emotional yet tasteful and very thoughtful mix. The one I would release. I enjoyed the whole video.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks for the analysis.

[@6.5inthemix]

This episode is soooooo good. Keep up the great work guys

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks!! 🔥

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@troyarmstrong615]

Great mixes, Nicholas mix is my favorite!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks, Troy.

I was waiting for this one! Nicolas s such a legend, and seems lovely and shares knowledge with no BS, thanks gents:)

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@fen3184]

Another great episode, thank you. I really enjoyed Paul's the most, but not the whispers; those felt really odd, to my ears.

[@riasure]

Are you the Artist Ed? Sure I recognise that voice! 😄

[@crossbonet]

Another great episode. Best part was the end section about pay and growing business wise. I have so many thoughts on that side of things I could likely talk for 2-3 hour straight about it. Not sure it would actually help anyone though (including myself) 😂.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Cheers, Tyrone. 🔥🤘

[@paulallen6849]

The voice sounds like Ed.

[@jamesglewmusic]

I thought that too!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@paulallen6849]

@@WorkingAudioTools I think I'm more drawn to Nicholas's and Ed's mix on this. I think both have more impact and better low end. The vocals on Nicholas's are more a bit more processed. Paul's mix has a weird balance to it on this one. Thanks for sharing.

[@BLAKGOLDMUSIC]

i thought it was ed voice too

[@andreasedenekendahl1770]

me too ❤

[@natdenchfield8061]

I really liked this episode (sorry Paul ! Hope you're well !) because of the final 20 mins or so . A discussion that was heartfelt, personal and so readily relatable .. even if one is not in that exact position today. As a freelancer in other areas, pricing is a similar psychological thing that often reflects self confidence and effects self esteem .

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Yeh, they’re inextricably linked. It’s all part of the development growth.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@davidallanmusic]

I'm on the road and so only had my Bose quietcomfort ultra headphones. I preferred Ed's mix over the others as it was the most full sounding by a decent amount with Nick taking 2nd.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[@jadedsean]

Nice episode guys really enjoyed it. I would bet my house that song is from Ed, nicley done lads.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@UserCC12]

very interesting chat :) I went from PSI (A17 though) to KII Three end of last year and it was the step I needed to reach my current production/mixing level which allowed me to get into Tomorrowland setlists, official Spotify Playlists, Beatport Charts etc. - which I merely scratched the surface of before. Not saying it was the KIIs alone, but they really helped reaching the next level. Mixes I did before sounded slighty akward most of the time

[@WorkingAudioTools]

That’s interesting. I’m beginning to feel the PSIs aren’t delivering what I need to consistent mixes that translate properly. The Amphions work really well for this. I’m hopefully trying the Kii’s soon. If they don’t work I’ve still got my eye on the Ex Machina’s - Ed

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@UserCC12]

@@WorkingAudioTools Well, they all are great and I feel like I couldn’t beat any of them. It's not really my genre, so take everything I say with a grain of salt :) Biggest learning for me was the stereo field in Paul’s mix, which apparently really suffered from the atmos folddown. Other than that, I feel like tone-wise this mix has the most „timeless“ sound, sounds modern, but not too exhausting. Especially the vocal I thought was the best, for sure liked it better than Nicholas vocal (Paul’s didn’t have that slightly annoying sizzle). Only problem was that all the mid-elements fought over the center in Paul’s mix, so the vocal was masked a bit. To me the message of the song becomes way more peaceful with Paul’s mix and more angry/rebellious with Ed’s. That being that, I thought Ed’s mix sounded very coherent and professional. I’d say it’s the best one in this comparison. It’s a sound that I lean toward when mixing as well, but I’m sort of trying to get away from because I feel it’s easier to make work but is not really what I prefer. Wasn’t a fan of Nicholas mix but I know he’s a pro and checked out some of his other mixes which sound amazing! Simone Spittle - Refuge for example is one the recent ones. Maybe he had a bad day or just didn’t put in the same effort as for a paid mix (which I would totally understand). Sorry he got roasted a little haha

[@jamesglewmusic]

Ok, on first listen just on laptop I thought Ed's mix sounded best. Had a listen in my studio and it still stands. Ed's has the best overall balance. Nick's has some nice energy but seems to be a bit midrange-focused. Paul's to me just sounds like there are holes in the mix with things pushed too far back and lacks energy as a result. I would say well done Ed, a good mix done in what appears to be a poor room. Nothing wrong with your monitors, just not in the best room. Kii's might help if you can't change the room but personally, I would change the room first! I also want to say kudos for all of you for doing this, it shows great courage and a full-on willingness to grow through however much pain it might take - great attitude. And finally, just thank you again, we are all learning along with you.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks, James. Unfortunately there’s no way I can find(afford) a better room. London is just full of un-sound-proof, expensive rooms. And the good rooms costs thousands to rent/month. Mines fine in reality, the only real problem is a null at 100Hz. I moan about it because I know it’s there. Thanks for the mix feedback and supporting the podcast.

[@jamesglewmusic]

@@WorkingAudioTools I think nearly all of us have a null somewhere in that region, just the nature of the rooms we have I guess.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

Ed I feel you about low pricing in the UK and EU as well. I was asking a band if they were going to let their mix get mastered and first thing that popped up was the price of a good master. I told them that they didn’t appreciated their own music if they wouldn’t even invest the price of a package of cigarettes per person to get their song mastered. Then they understood that they were basically invalidating their own music. Same with performing artists who play their music for free or for 100 bucks for a four piece band, totally nuts and with doing that for years they basically screwed up their own income and career. Also take notion that most didn’t need that income to survive because they were taken care of by the social system anyway. Then if they ever make it to the bigger venues they become the prey of Live Nation and get abused even more. Now we can complain that creative artists are being abused but this is not a coincidence, artists themselves are definitely also to blame for this. Eventually we all created this landscape. At least now we have rock academies were musicians learn about managing and promoting themselves and learn how to make a decent living from music, something that we didn’t have 30 years ago.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

@@WorkingAudioTools I gave an answer but my message is gone 🤷🏼‍♂️ And honestly it annoys me that when I get asked for my opinion and then I give my opinion it gets deleted because it wasn’t probably positive enough. I just didn’t like the song and I would skip it or turn the radio off, if the mix is good or bad doesn’t matter. Taste difference that is all.

[@monkmusic5994]

Ed, though your youtube channel is targeting hobbiests basically, you are a professional in terms of skills, hardware and ambition, full stop. If I were you I would try to mix songs with hit potential for at least 350 pounds. As a hobbyist with some potential hits, I would save some money for your mixing. Plus, I absolutely trust your integrity/character, mate. Most important to me. Love your honesty.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thank you! That is a lovely comment! Much appreciated!

[@chrisibbetson]

Nice mix Ed! Your mixes have come on leaps and bounds. One question about the snare replacement, did you use a static sample or a drum Vsti? Just thinking about round robin as it sounded static to me, but I might be wrong. Also a quick thing to consider re the kick entrance, I might shave off some top end from the click for verses. And a personal thing for me was the kick when exposed early on sounded slightly honky/boxy around 300hz. Really small thing. Hope you don't mind me chiming in! Love these mix discussion! Ed your vocal sound was nice! P.S Your snare had a 10khz ish transient that seemed a little over the top of everything a smidge too much. Again a tiny thing. Cheers!

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks, Chris! It was a static snare sample, yeh. I know what you mean. I’ve gone in and re-mixed this after receiving Paul and Nich’s comments and interestingly I’ve done exactly what you’ve suggested on the drum sounds. Took the kick back about 2dB too. Sounds immense now. Will post it on my website next week.

[@DerekPower]

(Listened through Hyphen Aria … an interesting earbud design by the way) I assume what was meant by “the stems needed a producer”, they were probably fine in of themselves, but they didn’t seem to give a character that can tell you what the whole song should be. In other words, you couldn’t get a sense of what the overall vision should be from the stems alone. The mixes therefore reflect the sensibilities of the people mixing it even when working with the same material. I like Paul’s out of the three, but they are all solid mixes and any one of them can work upon artist’s approval. In thinking about this, I can say the big difference between the songwriter and the producer is the latter has a very clear vision of what the song should be whereas the former can often be very open to what the song could be and thus doesn’t need to have that clear vision. This is why a songwriter needs to have a producer if the songwriter does not have nor wants to commit to a vision.

[@romanx3267]

what makes Pauls a better mix has nothing to do with sonics, but the rythmic hook of the piano feels distributed with the drums, both the other mixes i like sonically but the drums are doing accents on the back beat that interfers with the groove, they feel almost separate from the song. Thats one thing that Michael brauer do really good, his hihats, snare and kick feel almost at the same driving volume, and that matches the other rythmic instruments of the song.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

@@romanx3267 I had the same issue going with a mix that I did, in a verse the drums seemed to have that backbeat groove which you are referring to. It gave exactly that separation with the song that you are talking about. I fixed it with just changing the balance a bit. It could even be some tenths of a db on a fader 🙂

[@romanx3267]

​@@Chaos-Dynamics Yeah I started paying way more attention when I heard Serban mixes from the late 90s, his sonics have evolved a lot, but the groove is what makes him great, and for years I was just obsessed with the sonics of his mixes but if the groove was off none of that would matter, he makes the groove so good that you dont even pay attention and he can do all the ear candy because the rythm is perfect.

[@richertz]

Nicholas's mix is great sounded totally on point and you certainly hear this is mixer who has a great deal of experience. All had great qualities, however I would say Ed's was a little hollow in the mids compared to Nics. I'm still not buying into the Atmos fold down yet. If its going to get better I hope hear so soon as Pauls mix felt very Mono even in headphones. Hope I've not overstepped these are just my feelings and its easy when you are the judge as I know what it feels like to be having your mixes judged. I have to say that Atmos is still a mess on Apple systems as (according to Dolby as well) you have to use Airpods to listen to Atmos mixes with the spacial sound so a no no from me. I'm on the fence regarding Atmos at the moment, its seamless but I don't think the general listeners are that ignorant to what its doing.

[@kadiummusic]

Pretty much exactly what I thought. 😎

[@rhettmoir]

Yeah spot on. Fold down didn't work on my headphones. Bose consumer ones so standard for many Listeners.

[@richertz]

@@rhettmoirand when you have engineers claiming people don’t get it I find it comes across as a bit of a desperate sell as they are now justifying their in the Atmos bed. PDP are the worst for pushing this. I not trying to be a hater but I’ve not found anything I like about the medium when using/trying to use it on a standard setup. Standard stereo mixes have better energy and layout. I can’t say for a multi speaker setup but I thought the point was how it folds down.

[@rhettmoir]

@@richertz I'm open to. But for someone who had a Google phone and listens to music on Spotify and KZbin Music if the stereo mixdown ain't as good as a dedicated stereo mix I'm not that bothered about it

[@WorkingAudioTools]

I'm gonna be genuinely honest. I couldn't give a monkeys if anybody agrees or doesn't. There a lot of people strongly fighting for and against it where Id rather just get my head down and crack on with it. Do I want others to be mixing atmos from a business perspective? .. Nope. More work for me and less competition. "but will you get more work though? ... What artist asks or knows of cares about atmos? You are gonna waste your investment" Bla bla bla. Let the atmos mixers worry about all that and focus on your own work. Not meaning that to sound as cheeky as it reads but it's true I think there is just way too many people across the Internet getting all hot and bothered about atmos when it's just another pointless debate like analog and ITB mixing. Its just a difference of approach with the end result being the same in most cases which is a stereo mix. In our game, all that matters is what the client approves. How you get there is irrelevant. The fold down works cause it's a stereo mix. End of. Whether you like it or not is subjective but it's a stereo file so it works. I mixed it mostly using the stereo fold down so I was mixing it in stereo cause what I'm hearing is coming out of 2 speakers. I then finished the mix in atmos and went between atmos and stereo until both made sense. I know a lot of you so badly want to blame mixing in atmos but sorry to tell you its down to me if you don't like it. It's not the plugins, it's not the format, it's me. I was listening in stereo for 75% of the mix and was constantly going back and forth. Stereo foldown sounded fine to me and I knew exactly how it would turn out. Its my first mix in years without any bus compression, no 2bus processing, no mixing into a limiter. If it "doesn't work" in headphones then blame the mixer, not the approach because it can be done as good or better than standard stereo. I've just not had enough experience in the format to figure out how to find that balance and what works best

[@chris-down-under]

Great episode! Were any references supplied by the artist/producer which we would use to judge the mixing choices?

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Just an artist rough mix

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@natdenchfield8061]

Interesting track ! Ed Thorne meets Oasis with. Natalie Imbruglia bit in the middle . Did i hear the rousing chorus at the end was slower than the quiet bit leading up to it?

[@WorkingAudioTools]

No tempo change throughout.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@natdenchfield8061]

@@WorkingAudioTools I only listened on some Bluetooth headphones ... so no real judgement yet. Not sure I even listened to them all! The one I felt slowed down was the first (Eds? ) I think it was psychoacouatical , maybe a transient thing ? I'll listen again .

[@chrisibbetson]

Would like to hear a stereo mix from Paul 🙂

[@WorkingAudioTools]

That's me 100% done with straight up stereo mixing. Atmos all the way now 🤘

[@chrisibbetson]

@@WorkingAudioTools Ah! Ok :-) May the power be with you! Good luck!

[@chrisibbetson]

I did enjoy the colour and character from the piano in your mix 👍

[@msmoozesful]

That singer sounds like you Ed ,wtf??? It's spooky

[@WorkingAudioTools]

👀👀

[@WorkingAudioTools]

What was your thoughts on the mixes?

[@AlexeyFayzulin]

Ed's mix is the best for me. Nicolas sounds a bit flat. No enough depth, some balances are weird. Ed's having a bit overdone kick drum, but has very nice space and depth overall, and my favourite lv sound. Paul's dont have enough stereo, too mono. But really like how he did final chorus backing vocals. It's what I imagined for it. Also I liked overall balance for this song. It sounds for me the most driving one.

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Thanks, Alexey.

[@TigroGumi]

Is there a prize for recognising how many headphone changes you guys made? 😂

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Haha. Yes, but Paul is paying for the prize 🤣 PS, I don’t think he noticed.. 🫣🤫

[@TigroGumi]

@@WorkingAudioTools Will it be the plug ends of the power wire conversions left overs? lol

[@loganunknown]

You guys must develop thick skins after a while.... maybe not but the critiques help

[@kadiummusic]

Really interesting. Ignoring the 1st verse... Nicks mix was just a touch on the bright side, Ed's mix was a touch on the warm side, both Nick & Ed's mixes seemed very LCR with the sides dominating the centre. I A/B'd The Eagles 'How Long' back and forth and it revealed a lack of centre information in both mixes. Paul's mix was the opposite, vocal nicely balanced with a strong centre but very quiet on the sides. On a pair of Adams AH8's in a well treated room it sounds very narrow, almost mono. Is this a symptom of mixing in Dolby Atmos? Just my opinion, respectfully. 🤔

[@WorkingAudioTools]

It's a dolby atmos fold down thing. The format is supposed to fold down and upscale to every format which is why its also very mono compatible. Its an easy fix. Put the fold down in a stereo session and give it a bit of width and m/s manipulation

[@IliasPanteliasGR]

My favourite is Ed's by far. Like he found how relationships between all elements should work in this song. The more 3d sounding, plus it had the best color in the mids, very natural without overdoing it, it had a beautiful smiley curve without being too bright or too boomy. All elements had impact and life. Especially the snare. Such a beautiful snare, is a rare thing to say. Panorama mix sounded correct, it had impact but felt like he mixed it too fast. Sometimes it's a bit nasal. It's very static, everything is forward and 2d, like there's no back and forth, only left and right. Very few dynamics and 3d field. Paul's mix was the worst. Sorry paul :( it's like he needs to learn more about what translates and what doesn't before discussing the mix. Weird color in general, weird choices and translation. That's my honest opinion sorry guys and thanks for sharing

[@WorkingAudioTools]

Appreciate your feedback but could you explain the translation issue with Paul's? Just as we sent the mixes to 3 mastering engineers we trust and all 3 said they would hardly touch Paul's mix. Just seems a bit out of left field based on the feedback we recieved on all 3 mixes

[@IliasPanteliasGR]

@@WorkingAudioTools i ll write again tomorrow when I'm back at the studio

[@kadiummusic]

Paul's mix is very narrow, almost mono. But don't forget it's a Dolby Atmos mix so maybe that's an issue? 🤔

[@rhettmoir]

On my headphones Paul's mix sounded the flatest and narrowest. Not bad headphones, Bose standard ones. It was very flat for me personally. All subjective tho

[@IliasPanteliasGR]

​@@WorkingAudioTools A detailed review! Panorama: A correct mix, but I feel it's a bit rushed without the attention to details that we have been used from Nicholas. The vocals balance could have been more worked, for example the first phrase of the intro going to the verse/bridge is mixed much higher, the transition is not great there. It's also a bit more bright. In general, vocals are a bit louder that they should be for this track. The kick misses the transient information to cut through, the snare and toms too. It's they are overcompressed and becoming fuzzy. The OH's are too loud. Would prefer to hear more separated elements of the drums for this style. In the Chorus it sounds squashed for no reason, I feel the contract between the sections could have been better also. Ed: Excellent drums mix, and color for the vocals! Finally, I hear some depth also! The impact of the attack and transients is amazing. It's like a different track from what I heard before from Panorama. Really amazing work Ed. All the elements are crystal clear. The vocals are inside the hug of the instrumental but present at the same time. I can't think of a better mix for this song. The aesthetics, the micro-details, great work! Paul: The intro pad sounds a bit muffled, could have a bit more brightness to connect better with the vocals. When the vocals enter, they sound thin. It's like someone cut his chest resonance and warm qualities. Also, I feel it's compressed and dessed a bit rough. Could have been a bit more calm. It starts to make sense this eq move to the vocals when the kick comes in. Love the toms sound at the pre-chorus. Although the space you created to bring it to the chorus is not what it should be to feel that the chorus came in. I didn't felt the impact of it. It's like you made the song to have more tension in the pre-chorus than the chorus. I feel the biggest problem is that the relationships between the instruments and the vocals doesn't work to the big picture to make the spectator feel that there's a track that flows. I agree to your comment, I was very rough in my first review, I'm sorry for this fast first impression. Although I feel while I hear this mix of the song, I couldn't feel calm and enjoy it. It was like there was always something either a bit weird that made me think, either something great that was like "look at meee" and then from section to section I felt like I was prepared for a problem while it was going on. Oh... I just heard it's an atmos down mix to a stereo file. Well, maybe a part of it is about that. I can imagine it to be different if he mixed it in stereo from scratch.

[@TigroGumi]

Atmos fold down done properly always sound much better... it's the way forward

[@TigroGumi]

needs work but the best way of doing it is just around the corner

[@chrisrevel2801]

​@@TigroGumi 🤣 I first heard that almost 10 years ago , i will check again in 20 years or so

[@TigroGumi]

@@chrisrevel2801 where have you checked?... if you look in swamps for a good view you will seen none

[@TigroGumi]

@@chrisrevel2801 Plus the mix you heard from Paul today was a fold down... did you notice that?...

[@TigroGumi]

@@chrisrevel2801 You have to think hair transplants... bad ones you notice... good ones you don't even know it's a hair transplant so can not compare it... so you've probably heard loads of great fold downs without knowing they are Atmos fold downs... as you'll onl;u hear a good mix... lol... come find you in your cave 20 years from now ;)