First time Path of Exile when... yeah I'm good

Josh Strife Hayes gives Path of Exile a try after playing Diablo Immortal. Then he decides to open up the skill tree right after tutorial...
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[@Farengast]

My problem with the POE skill tree isn't that it's complicated it's that it commits what I consider the cardinal sin of this genre; it forces you to know your whole build before you start instead of experimenting on the way to discover your build by playing.

[@dissonantchaos7724]

This is my biggest gripe with the game. I wish I could have the freedom to experiment myself but you just end up fucking yourself in the end if you don't have a guide beforehand

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

You can do both. Fun fact, most builds can't do all of the games content. Even like, fairly min-maxed serious builds... That's one of the best things about the game in my opinion. There's a ton of end game content. There's several ways to progress meaningfully, and you can pick and choose. You don't *have* to engage in the Atlas and progress through the various tiers of Maps. It's completely optional to progress that way. It's not a game where you're supposed to be able to just "beat it" with one character, one build, etc etc. You're supposed to just, and I know this is crazy, but you're supposed to just enjoy the gameplay... You're not supposed to treat it like a mathematical formula and min-max every little aspect of it. That said, there's usually a build or two out there at any given time that can "do everything", but it usually requires game knowledge, more about how the various bosses behave and their mechanics than anything related to a build though. That's the thing. Most players just think they can pick up a build and do great... To an extent that's true, they might do a lot better than if they went in blind-- but even then, you need to learn the game itself. If you know all the boss pathing, mechanics, and which mobs to avoid or be careful around you can complete most of the end game content with very sub-optimal builds. You've been trained to view games a certain way instead of just... playing them... You don't need to be optimal. Even with the most optimal build in the game, the best build at the time of writing this-- you'll still likely die a ton as a new player because you still need to learn the game itself... It's not for everyone, but the people who like it love it and if it was dumbed down for a larger audience we wouldn't. So... go play Diablo 3. This game isn't for you, and that's fine-- just like Diablo 3 isn't for me and would put me to sleep.

[@iandakariann]

@@DefianceOrDishonor but this really isn't about dumbing down a system. Josh isn't against the skill tree. His gripe is with the introduction to it. How a new person not already used to mindset you are talking about is led into that mindset. You don't teach driving by dumping a first timer on a highway and going 'have fun'. You bring them to a parking lot and introduce them to the driving, the breaking, the turning. Then they go on simple roads. Then they can go on highways. The car isn't dumbed down. It's still a full car with all the features. But the player has a chance to actually experience it and decide if they like it. And if they do, THEN you show them the full scale and go 'you like that? Here is MORE!' having a horrible intro makes those few that got past it feel like hotshots in an exclusive club. Then they can turn their noses up at all those 'plebs in Diablo immortal that don't get it'. If what you want is a throne to sit on that eventually gets shown on 'death of a game' while DI makes trillions then that's fine. But if what you want is this skill tree and the gameplay it represents being enjoyed and studied by many people while POE continues to grow and expand that gameplay without needing to dumb down the mechanics for the masses, then a GOOD intro is needed.

[@Fezzy976]

@@dissonantchaos7724 There is a community made program called "path of building". It lets you build out your character using all the skill trees, items, gems, etc before you go into the game. Most people have more time spent in POB than in POE!!! LMAO!!

[@mitchgodman]

@@DefianceOrDishonor If a build isn't viable for all content then that's annoying, don't let me build it then. I'm not saying it has to be top tier, but it should be viable. Honestly, what you've said really makes the game seem way less interesting to me.

[@Nrzl]

I still remember the first time I saw this years ago and I just said to myself "This isnt a skill tree, this is a fucking skill forest"

[@Paradox-es3bl]

Literally just commented the same thing in a reply to someone else and then scrolled down to see I'm not the only one who thinks its a forest lol.

[@Greatlicht]

my reaction was HOLY FUCK! then kept going with it and ended up spent 950 hours on poe! 10/10 will play again :)

[@chilairearts4238]

Hey guys, an easy way to approach the skill tree is to pick up all the nodes that have the same trait name as your main attack gem in it's description. So if your gem has a listed trait of projectile, you go to the search bar in the skill tree and type projectile. Then you should focus on picking up those nodes closest to you. Try that with all the traits of your main attack gem.

[@Ice_Fragment]

@@chilairearts4238 There's a fucking search bar in the skill tree?

[@Dwellerinshadow]

My friend called it "Skilldrassil" >.>

[@ArthurLocatelli]

Imagine him learning that this is only one of the skill trees

[@shockangelic]

🙃

[@sunbleachedangel]

Thruly the anime of skill trees

[@SquidmanMalachar]

I'm sorry. what!?

[@smenkinsa]

@Miki lopta "crafting"

[@Semesty]

@@SquidmanMalachar Yep there is another one nearly as big

[@grzegorzniedzielski6885]

The passive tree is one of the easiest to comprehend parts of PoE, much harder is figuring out why your 6K life 3 layers of defense, fortify, divergent determination, MoM inquisitor got one shot in T9 map by a blue non-chaos monster.

[@Neion8]

I'm glad it's not just me that has that issue; my first char went a full army build (on full ramp I have over 30 summons, but I still make sure to pick up passives to let me tank damage) and due to auras, passives and items my zombies are stupidly tanky (like 20ishK hp+max resistances and tons of armour and health regen) but they still occasionally get one-shot by random monsters and it's just really bizzare, worst is when my 9+ zombies all get one-shot, like wtf kindof AoE can hit for nearly 100k in a game where most players have between 5-20k equivalent hp?

[@blindorize]

Cause you weren't spell suppressed🙃

[@MrInsertyn]

@@Neion8 Awakened gems? Summoner builds are extremely gem dependant.

[@g.waits4gainz205]

sadly so

[@specialmag7]

Firstt of all, if deaths can happen as easily, it shouldn’t be as punishing. The experience penalty should be cut in half. This is what drives new and motivated players away. Not the passive skill tree. If they don’t like the skill tree, they won’t like this game anyway. So no need to hide its complexity.

[@AlexAegisOfficial]

And this is exactly what Elden Ring did with the map. You can't gauge how much the entire map will be because you cant scroll past the borders you already discovered. You just go "Wait, there's more??" but only after you already discovered that bit. And then the game brings you underground. "EVEN MORE??" It's huge but not dauntingly huge at first and there's no sense of rushing through it as a first time player. Just hide stuff.

[@lolaandjoe123]

Thanks for pointing out how good that decision was, it wasn't something I had realised but you're right, I kept on going "THERE'S MORE?" constantly and that's why

[@BloodyMobile]

Yeah, PoE should do the same to the skill tree. I'm personally not shocked away by it, as I'm the kind of person who then just starts reading up every single fucking node and what it does. But I can see how this would overwhelm most others, not everyone's into being handed that thing on the first level up. It should gradually zoom out the more skills you unlocked (unless you already got a character of a certain level, at that point this would be hinderance)

[@lucnederhof2107]

This is a really really good point I hadn't thought about. I would have probably rushed through Limgrave faster had I known there was so much more to the map, but I spent a lot of time with it because I thought that was at least half the game and I'm very glad I did.

[@Olliecksdee]

This was a shortcoming of Elden ring for me, I played just under 2 hours and was so extremely bored with it I had to refund. The map felt empty and barren, the mount giving you insane mobility meant you could just run past mobs you didn't want to kill and there was very little action to be had in the first area. I say this as someone who has over 200 hours on both Dark Souls 1, and 2.

[@Raptchur]

@@Olliecksdee So you chose to not fight enemies then bitch about there being nothing to do. 2 hours is nowhere near enough to judge a game just like 200 hours in a game isn't much. You seem like the type that would think you're done with Monster Hunter games after you finish the story...

[@hurtumuchlyxb1508]

If they added some explanation to the skill tree it would be alot easier. Certain bonuses tend to cluster together in a rough sense. For example minion nodes tends to be North and west of the skill tree. Understanding this would make it alot less daunting for newcomers. Of course there's exceptions but as an introduction something explaining that would help

[@hulubuluhejhej2721]

just not true? there are minion notes all over the atlas? also north and south

[@MASIUUUUU]

@@hulubuluhejhej2721 search for minion in POB, there's literally not a single node below the scions starting point, which is in the middle of the skill tree

[@Temzilla2]

@@hulubuluhejhej2721 The comment wasn't "minion nodes are exclusively in the north and west of the skill tree" even though that would be almost correct considering if you search "minion" the only nodes on the tree with that word in them are in the north and west, with 1 little cluster near the scion. The comment was saying that generally, certain passive types are in their own region, like projectile passives in ranger/duelist. Your build actually has a much simpler area than all 1000+ nodes when thought about like that. Also idk if atlas was a slip of the mind but this is about the passive skill tree, not anything to do with the atlas.

[@reggiosco]

Lll

[@reggiosco]

L

[@grdn.angeal6913]

"Oh! this is the moment everyone stops playing" - Josh (After opening the Skills Tab) This killed me 🤣

[@oliverurbanik9647]

yeah.. but he's right - i stopped playing after opening this mess

[@JokeryEU]

actually took me 2y to try the game again after i said f it when i couldnt do the skill tree properly and was dying from the first chapter boss :) , after looking for tutorials how the f to tame the skill tree in poe learned the proper way

[@Skaikrish]

i started to read some skills and thought nope not gonna do it. Iam not playing for hundreds of hours to learn a complicated system and also get before i reach a certain point almost no increase. This get 1%, get 2% are just a joke. So yeah this was the point where i noped out of path of exile.

[@1IGG]

@@oliverurbanik9647 same

[@me-A2B]

That's me

[@dima6488]

Chris actually said in one of his interviews that they're working on a system that will allow you to see a predefined skill tree/build highlighted and you'll just follow it as a new player. Also the ability to share and import skill trees of other players straight into your game. That was a few months ago so I guess that's some time away

[@AlexMaNNxxx]

oh, and when you get your first skill point you can choose from 3 builds that game can automatically set up the skill tree for you as well as it shows which gems you need to take

[@arcade8078]

I don't see the need to use dev resources on this. 95% of players that use builds have PoB anyway. Then again if it's already implemented in the Chinese client, it shouldn't be too hard to port?

[@dima6488]

@@arcade8078 Where's this 95% statistic you're using from? It's laughable when people throw arbitrary numbers around. I mean, going by the same logic, we can remove the tutorial in game too, because YOU know how to play the game. Firstly, this feature is aimed at new players for an easier onboarding. Secondly, it's common sense to reduce the dependency on third party websites/software to competently play the game.

[@ariellogos6401]

@@dima6488 "95%" was just a way to say "a lot of people"... still, I agree that is likely a statement based on self perspective and opinion rather than data. But so are your statement in "firstly" and "secondly", as no sources for such facts were provided other than the infamous "it's common sense".

[@dima6488]

@@ariellogos6401 The sources for this are GGG's statistics, I just paraphrased what Chris said in the podcast and the data he explained they have. I'm too lazy to find it though so take it for what you will :)

[@keiyangoshin3650]

A yes... that skill tree. If Path of Exile is remembered for nothing else, it will be, for that skill tree. 😂 To be fair it is the most similar to a ‘tree’ I’ve ever seen. 😆

[@Tleilaxu0]

Skill kudzu.

[@MegawackyMax]

That's not a tree, it's an entire FOREST.

[@Phoenixflara]

If its a tree, it might be Yggdrasil…then again, its still a really big tree.

[@keiyangoshin3650]

@@smkslpsd - I remember that one as well! Perhaps there was inspiration there indeed. 😋

[@naycnay]

​@@smkslpsd PoE started out as Diablo 2 with FFVII's Materia system and FFX's Skill Tree. Great mash-up.

[@301SO]

I played FFX growing up and loved the sphere grid. So seeing POE''s skill tree was actually so interesting to me the first time.

[@matteckert130]

True but ffx starts things off simple before giving you full reign of the grid. I still have trouble getting into PoE because I have no idea how to build my character.

[@barbe00brune]

yeah but with poe its different, you start out and select a few skill to figure out hours later that your character is not meta and will be shit. So you have to start over or spend money

[@바보Queen]

its crazy that FFX was the first one to do it and everyone copied after

[@adenwalberry8030]

@@barbe00brune Spend money on what? Cosmetics won't help your shit skill tree out

[@QMMarc]

@@barbe00brune Exactly that, FFX is a bit more simple and smaller, granted, you can absolutely fuck up in it but generally you can beat the game with Wakka somehow being your strongest mage and Tidus being a tank that snorted all the coke in the universe. I feel like in PoE its just a bunch of little +1 to strength and its so tiny and annoying whilst FFX is like unlock ULTIMA or something. PoE is like Diablo 2 sure, but Diablo 2 also had an issue of...better looking up a build or get fucked later on so at that point is all the ''customization'' really that important if all you're gonna do is look at the most viable build and do that? Idk, i have issues with these systems, it's not intuitive at all, complexity doesn't always equals good imo.

[@matthewfanous8468]

Crosscode did a similar thing with its skill tree. Obviously it’s way less complex, but you only unlock bits and pieces of it as the story progresses. It’s much more digestible when you have only the “normal element” circuit points to worry about at first, if you were given each element from the getgo you would be very lost.

[@felliu7785]

someone mentioned crosscode

[@PipPanoma]

One thing that really helped that PoE could possibly also use is free swapping of skills. In Crosscode you can switch your path whenever, but you're still locked in a certain direction. In PoE you have this massive skill tree and you can reset... 20 points or so? That's enough for two or three clusters. And it's only once.

[@MetalKabu]

​@Kimi Timoskainen The only thing that would be somewhat acceptable is to give a message like "you are just given the part of the skill tree for your class, but there is more and you can travel there. just klick *here* if you want to see the full skill tree". Which is somewhat possible since the skill tree is somewhat divided in 6 parts.

[@benito1620]

@Kimi Timoskainen no the exact opposite. Seeing that massive skill tree was what sold me on the game. "Holy shit a game that gives me everything upfront and let's me figure it out" was a massive breath of fresh air compared to how handholdy modern games are.

[@MetalKabu]

@Kimi Timoskainen yeah free restats would enable a lot of more beginner friendly methods.

[@Corrupted]

Honestly though, this is what sold the game for me lmao, I guess different preferences

[@The_Totes_Adorbs]

I wish Scion was reworked, to only be capable of using Cluster jewels to build their atlas, like. you get nothing, just 20 blank large cluster jewel slots to go into, Ofc Delirium content doesn't spawn til later in the game, so it would take her out of the "League Starting" viability. But as a second character with jewels already lined up, would be fun

[@Madgoblinn]

same, skill tree was the most exciting part, being thrown into the jungle and having to learn it

[@The_Totes_Adorbs]

@@Madgoblinn You zoomers have PoB and a search function in game, back in the day we boomers didn't. enjoy how easy you have it :D

[@Corrupted]

@@The_Totes_Adorbs played the game in like 2013/14ish lmao, it was really early and the tree might have been smaller back then, but it was still very impressive and got me hooked for a few weeks

[@iandakariann]

@@The_Totes_Adorbs man, a search would've been awesome when I played. Though I can't flex. I remember having a web site with the tree that I could play with long before I started playing and read into explaining each type of node. I was a 'read the fkn manual' type so I never was hit by the sticker shock in game. I do remember being VERY thankful in having the guide once I saw it. I can fully see people just jumping in just 'noping' out just because they don't know what they are looking at.

[@Fezzy976]

That is just the beginning for this game. You have the skill tree, then you have cluster jewels which can be socketed in the skill tree which adds even more paths to take. Then you have Ascendency skill tree which is a small super buff skill tree which require you to complete mini puzzle dungeons within the world and then you have to enter the labyrinth to unlock 2 skill points to spend on the tree. Then you have other mechanics like harvest, beastery, atlas, and probably 16 new mechanics which they keep adding every season. You need a degree to get anywhere in this game, then there is the massive skill jump around Act 5. If your current build is trash you will learn fast that it is trash.

[@kurogane2x]

Honestly fuck the labyrinth. Seriously i loathe that fucking area. Imagine having to do that shit 3-4 times in a character? And having to go through that stupid fucking tedious map. I don't hate puzzles, i just hate it in arpgs where you only want to explode mobs of enemies

[@FreelancerND]

And skill jump past Act 5 is even worse. I was steamrolling everything with my witch summoner in acts even until the last boss, but when BAM - atlas, where every little tiny piece of shit which get to you means death.

[@DiNozzo431]

Not to mention timeless jewels

[@gwen9939]

And this is the biggest problem the game has. The community will almost always recommend "just copy a net-build on your first go so you don't get stuck later", and since we're on a JSH channel, this is basically removing exploration and experimentation from the player. Since this game is all about builds, you immediately remove the core appeal of playing the game by saying a new player should just copy the answer. I get that decisions you make early having consequences later and that you can mess up a character is appealing to a more hardcore demographic, I REALLY get that, but if all a new player is left with is click buttons make things go splat pick recommended option from pre-designed build you're just playing a very pretty spreadsheet. The game doesn't even need to be simpler, it just needs to present and structure its complexity differently and allow for better opportunities for respeccing when you learn more about what you're supposed to be doing.

[@FreelancerND]

@@gwen9939 There's an issue with that. Apart from a small percentage of playerbase nobody wants to trial and error their characters, especially when skill tree is that big and in reality is only a half of what a build is. PoE punishes playes for experimentation 😁 Most people who mess their build will only understand that somewhere in act III or IV, do you really thing that they will just rinse and repeat? Nope, that is a "quit moment".

[@risingdawn5259]

100% that was the moment I stopped playing. I always think the FFX sphere grid is a good example of how to do this sort of thing: it shows you enough to know there is depth, but leads you through the early process enough to get your bearings

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

It helps that in FFX you have the key locks. Some of them gate super powered stat buffs, but most of them are for jumping outside of your character's intended "Job" into someone else's. Like Tidus being a time mage and going to learn Yuna's white magic or Wakka getting Auron's Break moves or Kimahri...uh well that's all he CAN do.

[@kkin4438]

A good example of a massive tree with restrictions that open as you progress! I think PoE would really benefit when you start getting points for the tree to give you an option like, "What is your build preference: Melee, Caster, Summoner, Custom." Then, they'll maybe show you parts of the tree for newer players you might path toward along with recommendations (get PoE veterans involved to give recommendations). And if you don't want that and want the current experience, just choose custom, see the whole tree, and go your own way.

[@muddysky1464]

And this "complicated" passive skill tree is actually the last thing you should worry about 😂

[@ilyandilymusic]

It seems absurd at first but you are right, it is the easiest part of this game. Lol

[@a.t3415]

"it's too much at the start" my dude the first level up for a new player is always only 2 choices, HP or dps. The passive tree is an illusion of complexity.

[@Turmio1]

Agreed once you get a bit into the game the passive tree is probably the simplest part of character progression. Itemization is where POEs real depth and complexity hide.

[@whydidyoutubeaddthis]

Well, no. It's still more important than your atlas tree or what shit you're doing. It's the foundation

[@whydidyoutubeaddthis]

@@a.t3415 even more reason not to show them the whole thing. It's easy, it should look easy

[@ProblmSolvd]

Every time I look at the poe skill tree I'm filled with ideas and excitement, so much potential and that's before I look through the skill and support gems.

[@dogearflopper7011]

The shock moment swings both ways. When I first saw the tree, I thought, "Whoa, this is so cool! And they all connect? That's wild!" But someone else could say, "This is way too much to think about for a level 2 character," and be completely understandable in saying it.

[@joshanonline]

That's correct. When this game first appeared, a discord buddy was excited about the skill tree while the rest of us was like: "WTF?!" Most of us didn't even touched the game because of that 'Galaxy' looking tree.

[@petnaby]

It promotes going to a guide and getting an optimal build because it simply overwhelms the player the more and more they think about it. Last when I played it was entirely possible to "brick" your character in the sense your build would be so fucking bad and it was so expensive to respec that you had to give it up and level up a new one.

[@Lunatic108]

Nah that shit is awful. Especially considering that the majority of those points have infinitesimally small upgrades that feel almost pointless. Just combine the same points into fewer bigger ones so that taking a new skill or using a point feels more impactful.

[@bradenculver7457]

I think you can have the “whoa this is so cool” moment later though, you can’t take back overwhelming someone. Opening with a small subset of the skill tree, and then expanding it within like an hour or two would do a lot better for player retention. I also think the “this is overwhelming” response is pretty common, and definitely needs addressing.

[@MV-ri7zu]

@@Lunatic108 infinitesimally huh? Anyways the skill tree is fine as is. What the game needs is more pvp stuff for variety.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

I am finally understanding Etrian Odyssey 4 and 5's presentation efforts. EO4 unlock more after certain level cap. (And later, when it gives you subclasses, you're already quite familiar with normal classes already). It's nothing incredible, but when compared to EO3, it's such a massive QoL improvement!

[@ElBarto-ft1qe]

Yeah, and if the player wants to play in the most optimal way, he can just read a guide/wiki, he does not need to see all the thousand skills that the game has at the same time. I honestly prefer not having a skill tree and getting surprised each time I get a new skill, but I understand that it would not work in all games.

[@Narlaw1199]

Woah, it's not often EO gets mentioned in the wild. Such a fun though massively underrated series!

[@MaxIgnoramus]

For me personally, when I saw the skill tree it gave me FFX nostalgia which was good, and while the tree was intimidating I figured, let's just go blindly for now and figure the complexity out later. The bigger problem with Poe i think, is that unless you follow a build organised by someone who actually knows the tree well, your character will majorly suck ass and you'll die repeatedly without any hope of completion.

[@junlim7330]

This kinda leads back to what Josh says previously in other clip about guides; im actually fine with it if everyone else playing are like that, it's fun testing things out without seeing guides til you found that combo that you comfy to play around with

[@myhr2320]

This, though, is completly a design choice, the devs want the players to be able to screw up characters, with few options to correct mistakes. It's not as much a problem as something you should be aware of, and agree on before pushing deeper. Honestly, the idea that pretty much every object to upgrade your gear is, in essence, a currency, is a genius idea, and pretty interesting, since it generates an economy that is community-driven. The flipside is that, in the endgame, you have to play the currency management game, it is an integral part of the game's difficulty. If you want a game that has that feeling of complexity, but is much more forgivable, try Grim Dawn. Sure, it's not as complex as PoE, and it will never be. It's quite different in that it's a paid game, with 2 expansions, and is finished, meaning almost no more balance patches, and there won't be new content released. It also has no server, it can be played offline, and multiplayer is player-hosted, meaning you can mod the game if you want (both a pro and a con). But if you feel too intimidated by PoE, and think Diablo 3 is too streamlined, it's the perfect balance between the two, with its own pros and cons.

[@MaxIgnoramus]

@@junlim7330 that's true for sure. I suppose it depends how much time each person wants to invest into it. The thing I see most often from poe players is the reverse of the usual progression. Follow a guide first and then take a crack at your own build later on

[@chudina1]

I think you are able to complete the campaign even with messed up tree. Yes, you will die 100+ times, but you will complete it eventually. But if you wanna do endgame, then yes - you need to know what you're doing, or follow a build guide

[@lucrative6477]

Poe is extremely easy now, you can chose any skill and beat the game with it. There is no reason to follow a guide since there is no pvp, and everything in the game is clearable by a day 2 char.

[@GavinUnleashed]

I was lucky to have a friend who's played the game for a few thousand hours to guide me through the passive skill tree for what build I said I would have wanted to go for, but otherwise this was my exact same reaction the first time 😂

[@tictacterminator]

i mean literally what is there to even learn? learn the keystones, pick one to head towards if you want realize the whole thing is color coded get health/armor and avoid evasion

[@BardianAngel]

@@tictacterminator All of that is stuff you needed to learn.

[@cionm7077]

@@tictacterminator i mean literally what is there to even learn? you answered your own question and even then missed quite a lot more

[@daisukeakihito9832]

Honestly, I don't even think the chonkness of the passive tree is that much of a big deal, the problem with it that I've learned is, you can't just make something you think would be good as a first timer, or a tenth timer for that matter, because the game is so laser focused and optimized for late game uber builds, if you make your own build without knowing exactly what nodes you need, you will hit a brick wall around act 5 or 6, 10 if you are lucky and will have absolutely 0 chance in late game, because everything will one shot you. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, it presents itself as something super flexible when in reality it really isn't.

[@acetown2263]

It's bad if you're a more casual player. Most see that skill tree and just say "nope". Nothing wrong with the skill tree, I just think it should be shown slower, not all at once to scare new players.

[@PuerRidcully]

I did all the acts playing solo, with no plan. Sure, the build probably sucked compared to meta, but it finished the main quest. I don't think you really need anything but common sense to do the base. So not the attitude of taking random nodes, but reading their descriptions and descriptions of nearby nodes. To do more than the main quest you probably do need to plan your character more carefully though.

[@Sniperfuchs]

It's very flexible but you basically have to make a new character every time and/or simulate it in 3rd party tools before even playing, which can definitely be fun for a subset of people (and I don't want to devalue that for them), but from a game design point if view it's just horrible, especially since a game like that always has the downside of being hard to grow.

[@johnnykotletti4614]

That is exactly why i never got into POE. You could experiment if you could reset your skillpoints freely, but you can't .... so you are "forced" to follow exactly what a guide says or you f***ed later on.

[@th1ccbo1ee]

the chonkness of the skilltree makes it less clear in what direction you should go and what options you have and in what direction you should go towards. I do believe the PoE skilltree has the issue of over choice.

[@jpxenovore]

For me it's that they made a skill tree this complicated and then had the AUDACITY to make respecs limited. I would play this game so much more if I had unlimited respecs instead of having to plan my entire character's build from the start!

[@bitofbeer]

Thing that does my head in with this game is the amount of 3rd party sites and tool that are needed. Even a dam loot filter which the game doesn't have built in.

[@brodydunn9031]

I don't think it would do THAT much good honestly. You'd still probably be boned on equipment so your respc options would be limited anyhow. Not saying I'd mind the change, I just don't think it would solve the deeper problem involved.

[@Zzyzix]

Respecs are not limited... They're the exact opposite in fact. You can literally change everything about your character except the starting class by only playing the game. There is a limited amount of free respec points that you get through quest rewards, rest has to be earned through currency drops (Regret Orbs) or trading. From currency spending perspective it's not worth spending enough Regret Orbs to respec a character fully, but it's definitely not limited.

[@anaalvensleben789]

@@Zzyzix I think you don't know the definition of the word 'limited.' As in there are obstacles, barriers and the fact that it's just not feasible to respec a character once you get high enough in levels is the definition of limited. They don't mean limited as in 'can't change some things.' They mean limited as there is no button to click that just resets the tree and gives all the points back to spend freely. It's gated by Regret orbs because free passive points are LIMITED and it's often better to just reroll if you messed up.

[@jpxenovore]

@@Zzyzix Well sure if you want to be pedantic. I wouldn't call that even remotely convenient or practical, tho.

[@Flow-Joe]

I really really really hope Josh gets so much into PoE, he's going to review and nitpick it and give it all the praise AND the shit it deserves. - Former player, who still loves the game, but doesn't have time for a second 8 hour job.

[@kristapsb]

Poe already has it's own Josh - Octavian thou the more the better

[@TheQoogle]

The problem i have is i started PoE as a student with a lot of spare time. So i was able to get quite a lot done every league. Now that i don´t have as much time i get a lot less done and it feels bad sometimes. Especially when GGG keeps balancing the game around people who play the game as a job. Its still possible to go quite far in 3 months , even with casual time investment, but having the comparison to what i got done when i had more time is disheartening sometimes. It feels like making negative progress.

[@Uryendel]

But GGG doesn't give a fuck, POE is still a game were you are expected to not play the game for 30 min doing alt tab in order to do a simple trade, and it's still full of bullshit, the life bar on poe is either one or off, ennemies doesn't do a single damage to you until suddenly they one shoot you

[@nuclearpotato2000]

Someone show him the stash tab microtransactions, the horrendous trading experience in this game (despite the fact that the game is balanced around trading), how people who buy stash tabs will have a vastly better experience selling items than those who don't, and how even if you do put in money towards stash tabs, the trading experience is still garbage. This is coming from a PoE veteran who loves this game and has been playing since Abyss League, and somehow trading (the best way to make currency to fund builds), is still as bad of an experience as it was back then, maybe even worse thanks to the amount of new currencies and orbs we have to worry about now.

[@Flow-Joe]

@@TheQoogle Also, when you come back, you have to invest an hour or so, before you can even start playing. You have to look up an updated guide, reskill your char, perhaps switch and/or trade key items, when the char isn't from the last played league (e.g. from before attunements were added), you have to complete that, JUST to clear a few maps. And before finding out the build was nerfed to hell and sucks now.

[@Mik3Lik3]

I had the opposite reaction, I saw the skill tree and thought, "this is the game for me." Keeps getting better the more you learn too. 3 years in and still loving it!

[@hiigherup]

my exact reaction too. i love diablos gameplay but for me the endgame get too repetitive. this kinda combines the expansiveness of MMOs with ARPG gameplay and i love it so far. have about ~30 hrs and loving every single bit of learning about it

[@Dejectedprescription]

Just started playing and the skill tree hooked me. If the skill tree is this awesome what else does the game have in store!!!

[@peterschaldemose7861]

The same for me! It was Christmas Eve !

[@linaori]

Can confirm that this tree is very overwhelming and despite having tried playing several times, it just overwhelms me every time

[@PiPArtemis]

@Albedo I'm tired of having to look up guides or go wiki diving because the devs couldn't/wouldn't make a more intuitive system Stop promoting lazy design. Stop allowing devs to rest on the efforts of the community to make the game accessible.

[@Detlevboi]

@@PiPArtemis Calling poe devs lazy is hilarious. Hardest working people in the industry.

[@thrpotatoasfgfejfidieiidkr7071]

@@Detlevboi kzbin.info/www/bejne/sHjLnqN5pdOIo7M

[@gameguy1337]

@@PiPArtemis I just started the game yesterday and actually I find his advice is legit. Just type in the search bar in game and path your way. I'm having a blast so far

[@jogadorjnc]

@@PiPArtemis It's not lazy design, you can just search the nodes you want and ignore all the other ones. First time I made it to maps I legit just typed "area of effect" in the search bar and went for those nodes. Then I noticed I was getting stun-locked and typed stun into it and found a node that made me immune to stuns. You don't need to know all of the nodes, you can just search for what you want, and if there's a node that has it it will show up. The only part of PoE that I can understand being overwhelming is figuring out how to not get 1shot. But even that is kinda fine as long as you keep getting more hp/energy shield.

[@GFMarine]

I remember years ago when I tried to play PoE for the first time, I was really enjoying the gameplay but was completely overwhelmed by the skill tree and then having this rising suspicion that I wasn't making a good enough build after putting in about 12 hours, and the strange, having to slot in your own skills mechanic, put me off from continuing the game and I dropped it, and then last year I remembered this game again and downloaded it again to try it out once again, only for my ass to get blasted in the beginning area with all of the new stuff they added throughout the years just outright made me quit PoE and I will never go back because I'm not spending hours upon hours of my life watching KZbin videos or reading forums on everything the game has to offer just so I can play it properly, fuck that.

[@rammyrump2251]

Spend more time as a new player reading things and watching KZbin videos lmao, it’s how it feels to me right now

[@GFMarine]

@@rammyrump2251 I'd honestly just rather play anything else that doesn't require me to dedicate the time equivalent of a bachelor's degree just to get into it, I've got nothing against those that do but i like playing a variety of video games and it's genres, so if I want to play a fun ARPG without going insane, I'll just play Grim Dawn or Diablo 2/3.

[@tjparkour24]

This might be too late for you but have a look at GhazzyTV, he has a 5 hour uncut leveling video that is mostly designed to help new players reach the meat of PoE with the least resistance. You can have this video up on a second display while playing or even watch the edited version in the description for a much shorter guide. I used it while leveling the build it shows, and managed an 8 hour act 1 - 10, the build is easy to play and very capable in virtually no gear. (kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqGvg4Gmrp1_mpY)

[@KuuYami_]

Just follow a guide.. You don't have to learn where everything is. Hell, I don't know where everything is and I have almost 10k hours. It isn't that complicated to learn though, generally the nodes you want are near the characters that makes sense to play

[@chupika6464]

@@tjparkour24 I mean he just explained he doesnt want to spend and plan hours of his days around one game to properly understand it and "have fun". I'm sure the last thing he wants to do is watch a 5 hour long video for a game hes not even sure he'll like. Idk, just seems like the ship sailed

[@sarnem5330]

I tried PoE. I was working alot and a new father at the time. I saw this and just checked out. I'm going to try it again soon now I have more time but it looks so daunting

[@TheRiviaWitcher]

If you have a life dont even bother. This game is for no lifers. Speaking as a former no lifer.

[@sneg__]

@@TheRiviaWitcher Hard disagree, nothing says that you have to finish each league on max level. Just messing around, slaying monsters and bosses, selling stuff in your stash is a really good time even if you don't invest your life in it.

[@MooseCastle]

@@TheRiviaWitcher I've had plenty of success playing casually in leagues. Just because there are sweaters that complete everything in a league in 48 hours doesn't mean other people have to, the game is practically a single player experience most of the time.

[@myhr2320]

You could try Grim Dawn, it's much more accessible. PoE is more complex, no doubt, it's also F2P while GD has a price and two paid expansions. PoE is also constantly updated with new leagues and new mechanics every three months, while Grim Dawn is a finished game and only might get a balance patch here and there, once a year. But imho, GD is in the sweet spot between casual no-brainer fun (Diablo 3) and incredible complexity (PoE).

[@TheQoogle]

@@TheRiviaWitcher depends on what you want to do. A league has 3 months. You can get far in 3 months with just casually playing. Especially once you know the game better. Will you get everything done there is to do ? nah probably not.

[@kwith]

Honestly, when I started playing Path of Exile, the first thing I thought seeing the skill tree was "Oh, this is FFX. Piece of cake!" and that was it for me.

[@bboxkain]

count me on that list LUL

[@fakeplaystore7991]

I still think the best implementation of a graph-based skill tree was in Mana Khemia. It just tied so nicely with the game setting and such.

[@Ellimist000]

FFX only looks this complex but really is rather linear for the first 60% of the game and it only presents a small bit of it at the start

[@DirtCheapFU]

I was always turned off by the skill tree. It provides a crazy level of customization but efficiency will always trim the fat. When I played, I didn't like how restricting it was. Not sure if they lightened up. I just remember it being unnecessarily hardcore as you didn't have access to full reset. You would only get a few pts to refund.

[@sleepyhorse9817]

Honestly as much as I love the skill tree it just feels bad that if I don’t follow a guide from a top player my tree will always be suboptimal compared to theres because I just don’t have 20k hours of experience

[@sleepyhorse9817]

@@Detlevboi interesting so if I make my own build and try to find ways to scale damage my own way it will still work out? Might of motivated me to do my own build

[@hatmoney3340]

@@Detlevboi true if you don’t mind your build being shit you do have options.

[@tictacterminator]

spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about

[@tictacterminator]

@@sleepyhorse9817 you're playing the game wrong EVERYTHING in PoE is suboptimal because that is the nature of hardcore EVERYTHING is based around what I have access to in my chest THIS SEASON if you want a softcore power fantasy, Imma be honest, POE isn't the best game the freedom of movement on the skill tree allows me to adjust what path I'm taking on the tree to what I have available to myself in my stash from my past runs *it's not about min maxing, it's about getting to maps*

[@tehkolo]

For me the complexity isn't the problem but rather the weight of choice. First time playing poe I just decided to dive in. Midway through act 3 I realized my build was bad and I had no real way to change it. I also wasn't certain where I went wrong and I wasn't certain what laid ahead. My build might of matured in a few levels, this enemy group might of been tricky, or the next chapter might of been better. Either way I'm asked to make a lot of permanent choices with no real information.

[@GrotesqueSmurf]

I think they made respeccing orbs a little bit easier to come by in the last years.

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

@@GrotesqueSmurf You get one full re spec relatively early if I recall correctly but that might have been just a bunch of my accumulated respecc points. Respeccing should be free. that would resolve this issue sufficiently. Or at least free outside of competitive play. I don't quit remember the full league system but I bet it wouldn't hurt to make it free in the lowest one. (permanent/legacy?)

[@ayoCC]

​@@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece They were using the chinese test realm to try respeccing for free up until lvl 70. But it's apparent they didn't choose to use it. They also already have passive tree planning in the chinese test realm, not sure why they haven't released it fully yet since it's been years.

[@KhronicD]

@@ayoCC The Chinese client has a lot of things that Chris doesn't want in the game, but was essentially forced to for that specific region. It doesn't "fit" his vision for the game. While I respect that, he really needs to soften up a bit on a lot of things if he wants to keep bringing new players into the game.

[@ayoCC]

@@KhronicD I feel like mostly the early game should be more like a dopamine rush to get you hooked. Right now it's more like a big filter to get rid of people who aren't gonna like a game like poe

[@TuffMelon]

What they might have done better is to only show immediately linked nodes until like level 35 or something (About the time you unlock the library and have a lot more skills at your disposal) so you only see nodes you can actually place a point into at that moment (maybe extend beyond the +primary stat nodes partially, too). Once you hit level 35, give people a free skill reset if they want and at the same time unlock the rest of the skill tree to be visible. At least for their first character. Seeing this massive skill tree doesn't help a new player to realise they won't use 99% of it.

[@paddington1670]

That's how youre supposed to do it

[@asgth6147]

You get a free skill reset way before 35 though, got 4 by level 26 currently.

[@ikcikor3670]

In my opinion skill tree is not a problem, knowing that whatever you do with it is going to be shit unless you follow a build from the internet is the issue. Give people unlimited free resets for a not too high price to let them try out different builds and eliminate meta as much as possible and then the game will be more popular

[@CyanPhoenix_]

@@asgth6147 i think he means a full passive tree reset, not just a single respec point.

[@asgth6147]

@@CyanPhoenix_ Thought it was a full respec, my bad.

[@pencilbender]

Idk man, my first time on the tree was the moment the game sold itself to me. It has a clean overview of paths and clusters and the mystery of possibility. Organised complexity just inspires me.

[@DookLeto]

same, in a world of shallow, boring RPGs, we need some that are overwhelming.

[@srhyse]

Felt the same. This is the D2 Elden Ring to Diablo 3. They both have merits but the point of this game is that it’s complex, and with that, more rewarding and satisfying. I like Diablo 3 for what it is but I don’t think about anything in Diablo 3. It almost plays itself. PoE requires you to think, and you’re allowed to fail. Some of it is illusion of choice, but most of it’s pretty good from what I’ve played so far. If you put more time into D3, you’re guaranteed to succeed. You have no guarantees in PoE. You can fail. And it’s great. They have other games that removed failure for people to play. They both have their place.

[@joaksannan551]

Exactly this! I think the skilltree being this sprawling massive and to some people intimidating thing right off the bat is a good thing for PoE. The players that are going to be willing to experiment with the insanity that it provides, dive into forums, read up on builds and simply put "do the research" immediately know this is going to be a good ride. The players that are going to refuse to do any of that, will quite quickly know this game isn't for them. I have never understood the "every single game should make entry so easy it hides how complex and time consuming it is going to be" argument that some people (like Josh) peddles. PoE definitely could take steps to help provide the information newer players needs acces to, but simplifying the skilltree is, imo, not the right way.

[@DookLeto]

@@joaksannan551 being able to plot out your tree ingame would probably help a lot. I would like that so i dont have to keep tabbing to POB.

[@hunzukunz]

exactly. thats the whole point of PoE. it caters to people who whant this kind of game with deep mechanics and stuff to figure out. Its what sells the game and breaks it apart from the typical arpg. GGG even said they do hit people with the complexity of the game straight away, to kind of weed out the players who wont enjoy the game

[@miorioff]

I love the size of the chat. Had to open it on my first-monitor 40inch TV and take a magnifier to see it

[@nvincipality6371]

Finally. He is first monitor content lol

[@samuelsalvatore4511]

when i saw this thing, i wasn't exactly impressed, i was more like "is all of this really necessary? or are most of them just tiny passive damage increases?" I think the only bad thing about this system is that your first character will always be useless, because even if you are watching a guide for a specific build, you need at least some level of experience into the game to actually understand what those guides are saying and what you're actually building.

[@wiefdiwbofdbw]

Exactly, it's unnecessarily bloated up to make it look way more complexe than it really is. 90% of the tree is boring passive shit. Perfect example of "less is more". Imo games like Grim Dawn have a similar tree but way more focussed and interesting. In Grim Dawn you have 1 point that gives you +50% Atk speed, while in PoE you have to skill 10 times 5% ...

[@sjdhrjrjejdhdhsh]

@@wiefdiwbofdbw alot of those nodes are extremely significant. Aside from the travel nodes, you have a noticable upgrade after every passive wheel

[@lucrative6477]

Not really. Poe is so watered down now you can pick any 1 skill and beat the game by spamming it.

[@blackomega34]

@@lucrative6477 you haven't played the game in the last 2 years if you came to this conclusion, the game demands more of you than ever to the point where it's ruining the fun how you need to try for 80% max resists and spell suppression and determination+grace+defiance banner etc. just to stop getting oneshotted by everything.

[@rori354]

@@lucrative6477 What is "beating the game" in your eyes? The acts? Those are just the tutorial.

[@Frosth15]

When I first encountered the skill tree on POE, it reminded me of the sphere grid in ff10. Exciting tbh but they need to make an explaination how to build certain characters since most new players get to mess this up..badly lol I did

[@vfaulkon]

Combine that with how hard it is to undo progress on the tree to fix mistakes or try new things and…yeah. I’m enjoying the game too, but this thing is a problem.

[@Frosth15]

@@vfaulkon I enjoyed for some 3 seasons before quitting lmao cant say I sucked, cant say I've gone to end game haha but great f2p game

[@handlerone5172]

@@vfaulkon It isn't hard. You get refund points in Acts, and Regret Orbs drop regularly to add to the refund pool. As a new player, you learn what all of these do. There are guides on the site, but you can literally hover over the item and it will explain, same with the nodes. It isn't hard at all to try new things. It's hard to make those new things work because this league is devastating for build diversity. The game is much harder and makes making fun and unique builds, harder to do and be viable across the board.

[@DsgSleazy]

@@handlerone5172 I have like 70-80 hours and only got about 10 regret orbs, I had to use all my chaos orbs to buy enough regret orbs because no longer allowed me to do what I wanted and started steamrolling me.

[@emanmodnar2]

Haha, I also thought of the Sphere Grid! It was also simpler and easier to read back in the day. PoE is now suffering the Bloat of Age.

[@kungfuvoodoo9889]

I do enjoy seeing new players' reactions to seeing the skill tree for the first time, but I agree with your point. It's one of those things where it's highly recommended to look up guides to help give new players a sense of direction but that kind of game design acts as an unnecessary barrier to entry and it does make more sense to start off in a more beginner friendly way and easing people into the deeper intricacies.

[@idontcare9041]

I agree. I'm a efficiency driven player so before I even start a game I look up information so this was natural to me but for many it's not. Making a build is actually quite simple if you know what you're doing. Basically go for the life nodes in the area and pick up useful damage nodes on the way. It's much easier said than done though. Following a guide and trying to understand why the creator made their choices is the ideal way to learn.

[@Bisougai]

I remember when the MMO Skyforge used the same type of skill tree. But indeed it was a bit more accessible because it started with smaller trees (one per class, organised in a constellation shape) so you were able to understand an simpler version before. BUT even like that it was in fact still complex to learn.

[@tavernadodevilhunter6732]

Ah yes the atlas map, you know i prefer this system than the crap version nowadays. Now to get one class is boring farm of currency.

[@VskutkuTrigen]

Exactly.... POE is scary to get into because of stuff like this... It basically tells you "If u wanna play this game get the wiki and guides ready"

[@smoky-phil7694]

Which is basically how you play the game hell it should come with a list of the third party tools you'll need otherwise as well on install.

[@mrfreeman2911]

to be honest POE is a horrifically complex game. The skill tree is the easiest part...

[@sindri1447]

I simply think it's bad design. Sure, some people enjoy it but if your game is that complex then you've just fucked up. Most people just wanna play a game without 20 open browser tabs, spreadsheets and a calculator to alt tab and cycle between.

[@orblach9521]

@@smoky-phil7694 needing third party tools or follow guides to play a game shouldnt be a thing to be proud about

[@Maxxii1987]

@@sindri1447 You are not wrong neither yre you right. You dont have to play the game and the game wasnt developed for the nobrainer Diablo faction neither for casuals. And thats good as it is because if you wanna work your build do it if you wanna have fun just take a build guide its not magic.

[@Wampa842]

"Hey, I want to start learning Linux, where should I start?" "Here's Gentoo, get compilin'."

[@origamiknife7556]

My brother sent me a screenshot of the passive skill tree for PoE and that's what got me into the game. It's funny that your "that's where people quit." moment was my "fuck yeah" moment.

[@kikoredog]

well autism attracts differently

[@Gearleyveloso]

Some people love challenges, some ppl try to avoid them.

[@williambarry6438]

Some people want to play games to challenge themselves like this game presents you with diverse control to tinker until you have your unique build. The others are the reason mmorpg genre is in the state of decline. You want lazy but lazy is boring so you play a while spend money on garbage then bail.

[@rickybigdam8127]

I think the way this should be addressed is an optional "tutorial" mode for the first character an account creates. You select from a couple build presets and the devs add in some kind of guidance on what points to click next, with more tips every time you level up explaining damage, defense, etc through the acts. Respeccing should also cost way less until you are higher level (perhaps no regret cost respec until act 6, then gradual increase to 1 regret per skill point at level 80+). This should alleviate most issues.

[@DeltaFidelias]

Honestly what I’m thinking would be cool is to implement a kind of official/player community blueprint system. What if you had preset official builds with descriptors that you could select that would auto level you along a path? And then you could submit builds into the game proper. The system is possible. The Ui work is basically done, they’d just need to implement an auto level which wouldn’t be too hard to do. That way if you were a player who doesn’t really care for the building and just wanted to kill things you’d be able to easily play the game.

[@glaive120]

respeccing should be cheaper, but all the tutorial build stuff is such a ridiculous amount of work.

[@namis3da]

ngl most players skip tutorials, so maybe add "replay tutorial' option xD

[@gardian06_85]

a good 1/3rd of the spider web has such specific uses where the player might not have even earned a point if the thing they want is behind something that has no effect to their build, and even then things being so scattered around the web makes it feel like it is false "depth" many of the choices are not unique decisions but rather map traversal optimization (kind of like a traveling salesman problem) the only real problem with implementing a "suggested build" would be that they would have to pick a few, but in so doing it would probably get push back (no win situation) either "favoritism", a feeling of "desired power level" (besides the benchmark content), and/or "when will these builds/skills get nerffed/buffed" (sometimes GGG just changes things to change things), and then the passive web is only 1/4th a build as you then need to get specific gear peices with specific rolls which could be seen as market manipulation, and therefore "promoting RTM" as for how difficult it is: they already have a search feature built into the passive web (it took them long enough) so the "build" could just be a list of node indexes where if you are following a "suggested build" the system checks which of the list you have already gotten, and then shows you the next one in the list. (the suggested build would need to include the meaningless nodes for map traversal). then every league, or even every month or so they could pick new "suggested builds" only really changing out the list of node indexes, and this could coincide with being able to import a build into the game (just a list of numbers) so that you don't have to have a guide up every time you gain a passive point. the only real draw back to a "suggested build" system besides the knee jerk responses from "hardcore fans" (though it should be the same response to someone suggesting "every player should follow a guide") is it would give players less of an incentive to go through the web and learn the WHY of what is being taken, and for 60% of points spent the changes are not very impactful (% changes on things you already were doing), so the player might not even notice the difference in what they just took.

[@CompanionPrism]

@@DeltaFidelias I'm pretty sure that system literally exists on the Chinese client. The Chinese client is a weird variation on PoE, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

[@UnknownFox]

I think I was more amazed than scared of the skill tree, but at the time I was there to have fun. I assume some people panic at the idea of Min/Max and having to study every little node for what will be optimal for the build rather than just picking what they like.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

Yep, the min max crowd sucking the life out of games and complaining that everything should be dumbed down and simple. The scourge of gaming. These people ruin gaming. They need to shut up and go play Diablo 3. There are thousands of games designed for them-- but they criticize POE? It's not for them. It's really that simple.

[@Dindonmasker]

It got me excited to see more and go online and find some cool builds for that complex tree. I stopped playing when my friend went full summoner and i couldn't do anything anymore.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

... you couldn't do anything because your friend was a Summoner? Well that's BS. I really wish stupid gamers would stop trying to get complex games dumbed down. Just move on man. Go play something else. There's thousands of games designed for five year old IQs.

[@RuffianSoldier]

@@DefianceOrDishonor bro chill

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

@@RuffianSoldier Yeah I get it, I probably should chill-- but I'm tired of seeing every game with a bit of substance and complexity getting dumbed down to the point that I lose interest in them thanks to stupid people whining. Especially considering that the people complaining probably wouldn't play it anyways even if it was dumbed down and easier to understand at first glance... This is my hobby. It's one of the ways I enjoy my spare time, and it's largely been ruined by whining prats. There are so few games I can enjoy these days. Leave Path of Exile the hell alone and go play Diablo 3. Not everything has to be designed for children or the largest possible audience.

[@Dindonmasker]

That's what i did. But my friend also stopped playing at the same time cause he thought the build was too op and didn't have any challenge.

[@emanmodnar2]

I typically play a Necromancer and my mate plays something melee. I'll clear out the little guys while he has all the power moves to take on the bosses. Its really about learning how to synergize with your friends, and your friends realizing theres a harmony that needs to happen in co-op rather than a 'me first' attitude. In another season, he ran an Aura heavy build and just buffed all my summons to see how much we could pump up passive stats (He said the Meta Aurabot was boring and hes not doing it again). I have another friend who insists he gets all the upgrades first but his ability to play the games isnt so great so every game he plays with us suffers. Constantly wants to play, eager for team games, doesnt actually understand the concept of team play and making others feel as important or compatibly strong. Loses his mind if I play a pet class and out dps him. I switch to Archers when I play with him and pick off stuff he doesnt notice. Not saying your friend is like that but if a summon build is destroying your gameplay, there could be more than jsut the build at fault.

[@MrSjanten007]

GGG should make a build for every class so new players can follow where it explain why u put points in them

[@DNoll-dx4ju]

New player opens the skilltree for the first time and gets a pop up "Hey Zizaran here and welcome to a new Video, this time my alltime favorite ED Contagion Leaguestarter guide"

[@KrzysiuNet]

They did this for some time. "Build of The Week" on their official YT channel.

[@kaliek5281]

He just explained the exact reason I stopped playing POE very quickly. Everyone told me it was a good successor to Diablo2, then I saw that talent tree and asked: "Are you insane? Gonna spend all your time looking at this.....mess of a web rather than actually playing"

[@beefchampion2792]

This is part of the game actually. Optimizing your tree and thinking of new ways to make your character stronger is actually playing :)

[@kaliek5281]

@@beefchampion2792 I dont wanna stare at a huge confusing web of bullshit, most of which are minor passive % boosts that arent exciting whatsoever. Gimme a D2 style talent tree thats basically just your skills that synergize. Gimme a talent tree where when I select something I feel it basically immediately starting at level 2.

[@Axthenon]

@@kaliek5281 the game is just not meant for you. I play PoE since 2013 and most of my playtime is theory-crafting... and I enjoy that like most people who play this game. It is exactly what this game is for.

[@mandisaw]

That's the crux of my take - love theorycrafting D&D builds (PCs & custom monsters), but my videogaming time is limited. These sorts of design choices are like a gate based on IRL playtime for potential players, esp where you don't *really* get the full effect until your 2nd..nth playthrough. Stats report that most players don't go past 25-30% completion, if that, so they are limiting the game to those folks with loads of time to pour in (and the willingness to do so, repeatedly).

[@Sith90lord]

That tree is the reason i started playing POE back in closed beta.

[@ryanstudham640]

Chris Wilson from Grinding Gear Games has actually explained several times in podcasts. This screen is them trying to be as upfront with the player as possible that this game gets complicated. That being said, POE's new player experience is uhhhhhhh

[@Asghaad]

except its NOT complicated... if you think "filter for word you are going for then follow the shiny bits" is complicated ... the thing that is bad about this is that its symple system that does its best to LOOK complicated ... in a game genre of mashing keyboard to kill gazzilion of easy mobs ... its this total disconect that makes PoE objectively a bad and shallow game ...

[@g76agi]

@@Asghaad what are you on about, if you make builds by "pathing to the shiny thing" id be surprised if you make it past t2 maps

[@blackomega34]

@@Asghaad You are absolutely right that it's not complicated but people are still scared shitless and quit over it so that justifies chris being upfront; if you can't handle even this simple thing then you can't handle the game

[@Ponen77]

The skill tree was what got me hooked to the game, used to be a really into diablo 2, so when I heard of path of exile and looked into it, I liked what I saw and the looking through the skill tree I noticed that I could branch out into other classes skills and abilities so I settled on a duelist with high melee damage and decent ranged capabilities while still being able to still raise golems and an undead army in a pinch, had fun mixing and matching and I don't care for PvP arenas so for my tastes it was excellent and have never wanted to go back to diablo after that.

[@framinthor]

funny enough my first time playing that actually was my quit moment, i was not in the best of moods and i was like... fk it i dont wanna try and navigate this thing. What i think they should do is have a "new player mode" that can kind of guide you through it and zoomout as u go or something, and an advanced where it's just open. Another thing they can do is have you chart out the path before you have the points so you donjt have to rethink and try to remember the path every level, you just chart it out and as you level you can pick the nodes you wanted to based on the chart you made earlier

[@Thakkii]

ye can confirm same thing happen to me , i was like i wont go research on this sht is too much and move on , i might give another try again 😆

[@VeryProfessionalGamer]

an ingame pre-build selector, made by other players that levels your passive nodes for you...

[@framinthor]

@@VeryProfessionalGamer honestly at this point as someone who copy pastes builds from youtubers, i dont see the harm lol

[@framinthor]

@@Thakkii thing that halped me was look at a video that had multiple builds, choose one that looked good and not too expensive (usually it says how expensive a build is in those) and just copy paste their build

[@Thakkii]

@@framinthor humm fair il take a look into that thanks

[@tyberiusmcintyre3411]

that skill tree looks so beautiful.... aint nobody ever told me about that part, everybody always telling me XYZ is good about the game but it just sounds like another game but THIS.... im sold.

[@Wishuponapancake]

do yourself a favour and don't look up a guide for your first character! just allow yourself to mess around, you only need one tip and that is just try and go for the damage type for whatever skill you find is cool :) I only ever play by winging it and it's very fun

[@mellowcorpsep6665]

@@Wishuponapancake good idea for the first character but after a few you start getting frustrated and thats when you should look at guides until you figure out the systems more. then youll be able to make your own build less terrible and you can do p much everything you want.

[@KevinNijmeijer]

This was my quit moment as well, multiple times even. I'm going to try it out soon again tho!

[@darokdeed]

Search online for a build and look if they suit you then follow it, You wanna be a caster or summoner, melee or range, traps totems or memes? Burn poison bleed or pierce there are so many flavors just look for a build that is a league starter and go ham. You get stronger and stronger till the endgame, feels good, do that couple of seasons and you can start doing your own builds because you learned quite a bit about what a good build makes or breaks.

[@paulinfgo]

If you focus only on the ones you can allocate right now (the ones that are kind of blinking) it's not that hard. You don't have that many choices "right now" ever, and you can enjoy and explore the game, and potentially have fun =]

[@richiewerderits1676]

@@paulinfgo If you follow this advice though, you might end up missing out on important things to deal damage with your build or that grant you life and other defences. I sincerely recommend following a build guide. It is important though that the guide is for the current or the previous patch (3.17 or 3.18). Enki's Arc Witch is very new player friendly from what I've been told. Zizaran has very good guides out there. There are too many to list all the good recommendations here, though

[@paulinfgo]

@@richiewerderits1676 I just think a solid build is required for the end game, but not to learn the game. I think you can just pick stuff you think make sense for the character, and then you can reach the end game. I do agree some builds would not survive there, but for a new player, who's trying the game, I think it's perfectly reasonable, and you can always create a new character =]

[@Asghaad]

@@darokdeed or dont bother because if the game cannot be played other than with a guide, then its not worth playing in the first place...

[@dinckelman]

This skill tree is the reason why I never stuck around in this game. Sometimes I just want to fuck around and find out, and then if it doesnt work, just try something new. Here, trying something new means leveling an entirely new character from nothing, and it's very frustrating

[@christo2690]

Follow a guide then if you want it easier at the start. Zizaran has great videos teaching the game

[@ninjanothewise8214]

@You're Gonna Hate This Let's be honest though. People who have never played the game before know nothing about PoB and even if they did, don't wanna go out and spend hours on end to figure things out in it before they even experience the game. Hell when I started playing back in 2015 there wasn't a PoB, I was a kid, and I didn't know anything about RPGs other than minions.

[@NarutoRocker31]

@You're Gonna Hate This It literally IS the game's fault if you don't know how it works as a new player. Game's that live on for decades guide their players gently toward learning the game slowly. Games' who's legacy dies off entirely are the ones that just expect you know know everything and throw you out into the abyss.

[@peelsreklaw]

@@ninjanothewise8214 Well, that's simply not true. Some people do want that. That's why the game has players. Everyone was new once.

[@efreitorhabibulin238]

wut??? you can respec at any time and the game even gives you like 12 respec points for free by the time you get to the end of campaign, right before the real game begins

[@InsanityFactor]

Not gonna lie, that WAS the moment I said "Yeah, thanks, I'm good," and uninstalled the game. Having said that, I'm sure the game is awesome and that level of customization is absolutely mind-blowingly amazing for those who "git gud", but I'm too old and stupid to start working my way through that puzzle-board of a skill-tree.

[@Odyssey636]

It literally starts with two paths and has stuff like +10 strength...... hows it hard to go. I need capped resistances, and i need strength because im a strength build lol

[@rammyrump2251]

@@Odyssey636 I mean, I just started the game last night again, and people were literally saying, unless you follow a strict guide it’s basically not worth playing, as you’ll barely even be able to complete story content Idk about you but that sounds like some bullshit. Like, you open the tree and there’s 500+ nodes to choose from or something, that’s just way too much to choose from. Sure, you can just pick some small things here and there, most people understand that, but it’s just all the lead up to the extra shit and the wanking around that leads up to it that it’s just annoying and deterring I saw like 1 video yesterday saying that there’s some keystone/capstone shit you gotta go for too? Plus respects in this game are apparently near impossible to get, and/or suck too lol

[@PGerman.]

When I played PoE for the first time and saw the skill tree I just went "Oh my god, hell yeah!" and then looked at the nodes for like 5 minutes before going with mana or something. I love freedom to design my characters in games. The same goes for party members in games like LISA: the painful rpg

[@FNLNFNLN]

"Freedom to design" in an online game means there are a handful of right answers, and a mountain of noob traps.

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

I remember a friend describing the skill tree... Then I saw it

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

@@FNLNFNLN "Freedom to design" What may be a noob trap to some could end up being the best created class for the noob.

[@FNLNFNLN]

@@excaliburofgachagames9241 Yeah, and buying a lottery ticket could make you a millionaire. What could be a more convincing than using a massive edge case to prove your point.

[@peelsreklaw]

@@FNLNFNLN Who cares though? You don't get the death penalty if your build isn't 100% efficient. If you don't find it fun, well....oh well.

[@Atiklyar]

I remember my first time seeing the skill tree I felt pure excitement. The sheer freedom of it all was amazingly refreshing, personally.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

Yeah, basically you're not a mobile gamer. Kudos man. It's genuinely depressing seeing this comments section. I now have a better understanding of why so many game devs make content that appears to be designed for fifth graders. There are a lot of lazy stupid people with goldfish attention spans. Thank god the GGG devs don't cater to them.

[@LaMainy]

@@DefianceOrDishonor Oh my god, finally someone who has a brain. Why cant these people just leave this game be what it is. It is exactly this way, because people wanted it. Instead of praising it for its daring approach they whine and bitch about it. Mobile players indeed. And that comes from someone who stopped playing it.

[@MetalKabu]

@@After_Pasta true enough. That's why I started with my own character in PoE, it sucked and started to follow guides. By now I am somewhat knowledgable enough to make somewhat good chars on my own, but I don't because other people have better builds and I don't have the time to experiment sooo yeah.

[@MarkoLomovic]

@@After_Pasta Wrong you just have wrong mentality for games like PoE, you don't find learning as part of playing. You think that time spent learning is time spent not playing when in reality us who play games likes these always learn and looks for solution for problem because we like games that can challange us. Beauty of PoE is that there is always something to learn.

[@MarkoLomovic]

​@@After_Pasta Assumptions that turned out correct lol. Your comment was comnpelte bullshit and you know it. You could just say I don't like it instead of making up shit about how time is main obsticle in learning a single player game. Wow you work for a living like a rest of us, nice context there. What is the point you are trying to make ? No you don't have correct mentality you said it your self you don't find learning enjoyable at least not anymore.

[@TheHuckeberrie]

the great thing about poe tree is that it sifts the weak from the player pool the tree isnt complext, its just big. theres only a few different kinds of nodes. i learned this to play this game in highschool.

[@RealityCheck6969]

This was the point where I stopped playing myself. You are SO spot on!

[@5ean5ean22]

Or you just werent good enough. Don't blame the game.

[@thseaqueen2938]

give it another shot if you hate diablo, the skill tree is all passives bonuses

[@lonestarlibrarian1853]

@@5ean5ean22 This is hilarious, if you’re being ironic. Just as funny if you aren’t, for different reasons. I’ve never played poe and have no intention to, since the game looks like I’d be miserable trying to play it, I suppose I’m just too bad at the game to download it

[@SkorpioVenom]

@@lonestarlibrarian1853 Nah bro that dude is trolling. There's absolutely nothing skillful about being able to read the passive tree. Its actually one of the simplest parts of the game imo.

[@einfangirl2351]

tbh for me this was a hook moment. When i first saw that i was like wow so many build options. Then i googled the max amount of xp points you could earn and looked over the buffs each of them provides systematically. Then i made a screen shot and drew my planed skill path beforehand. You just realize very quickly that way that way that a lot of perks that correspond very well with each other are very away from each other Edit:This is a personal thing. So just to clarify i'm not saying that josh is wrong. I just wanted to share the other side of the coin. It's similar to how a a hardcore full loot pvp person talks about how much they love the risk and tension.

[@JeanBudo]

I'm with you on that... even before I've even played the game, back in 2015, I was watching some youtube video about a game I knew nothing about, and when I saw this skill tree I was like "I have to check out this game"

[@Nimoot]

And unfortunately Josh doesn't run this account ... some random person is running the KZbin channel ... so 'he' likely won't see this. :-\

[@Infinias]

The problem is that this skilltree does imply variation where there is none. They basically have taken the class specific skill trees and connencted them together. And try to sell variation with this magic trick. Which on a game design standpoint means only to choose the connecting nodes - the ones giving dex str and so forth - COULD BE a valid build. Which it isn't. Combinde with the BS limitiation in respec "items" shows the inability of the designers to do their job outside of pandering hardcore players - which in the case of PoE is synonymous with whales.

[@einfangirl2351]

@@Infinias Ok have you played the game? There are items that make stuff like an strength based necromancer possibleund actually very viable. one of my clan mates was int/strength based zombie summoner who used a mask which allowed him to summan more zombies the higher his strength stat was. He combined it with the immunity to chaos damage which reduces your hp permanently to 1 because his magic shield was so high. Also saying that people who play a lot are comparable to whales is ridiculous. In path of exile the only thing you can buy is skins. If you want an item you will have to farm or use the in game items to trade for them. That progression cannot be bought. A whale spends a lot of money to be the best as fast as possible, To never die etc. That is not possible in path of exile. By your logic a person who is playing a lot of csgo and thus reached a high skill is a whale which makes no sense

[@Infinias]

@@einfangirl2351 I have. For 83,2 hours. And you cannot only buy skins you can buy mechanical advantages like more space in your loot chest, which by definition makes it pay to win, since your room to store items that are neccessary in this game becouse the rng is ridicoulus high. Which as you yourself stated also gives advantage in storing more items to trade. Combine this with the absurd theory crafting OUTSIDE provided by 3rd parties that is neccessary to progress after a certain point and hidden mechanics that never get mentioned with a single word ingame, the point I made is still: PoE is made for elitist "hardcore" whales. And bringing up a game like CS:GO where there are LITERALLY only cosmetic things to buy and the main point of this game is inherent skill and not an excel spreedsheet, shows sadly how low your understanding of the point in question is.

[@phoenixdblack]

This is literally how I reacted to the Skill Tree. Just closed the game, because I knew I'd need a guide to work through this.

[@Jordan-Ramses]

I fell in love. This game was made for me. A guide? This is what is wrong with modern games and gamers. Figuring it out yourself is the fun part. It's not the end of the world if you make a bad build. I played for 4 years and I always made my own builds. Some of them were bad. I know having fun seems like a waste of time. But it really isn't. Also actually learning things.

[@hauthicus]

@@Jordan-Ramses unless you want to do endgame content then goodluck making your own build and not just speccing the FOTM builds

[@Demilak]

I wish they'd make the search function more obvious. Realistically you can just search generic terms like "Health" or "damage" and the nodes that give bonuses to those will light up, and then you can just look at the path toward the big nodes of those things (the bigger nodes do cooler things!), and it only is a couple of choices you want to make in terms of how you want to path around the tree towards whatever node catches your attention. You can pretty easily stumble your way through the first 70 or so levels. You'll just be slower and die more than with an optimized build, but you're not going to get to the super endgame bosses in your first playthrough anyway, so just explore and try to figure things out. Try out the skills and see which ones you like. Then you can either take lessons you learned from your first build into the next league and try to do a bit better, or look up a guide. But I actually almost always recommend you just try to go in blind and figure it out on your first playthrough. It helps build a stronger foundation to build upon, imo, and you'll realize that while the passive tree is big, it's not complicated. Then, follow a guide for your 2nd or 3rd character to see really how the mechanics can be stacked to do some pretty wild stuff.

[@BH-zo4nq]

@@Jordan-Ramses not everyone finds the creating the build part fun

[@Jordan-Ramses]

@@BH-zo4nq not everything is for everyone.

[@NagaTales]

That was exactly my reaction. I'm someone who loves complexity and customization when it's done well and the information you need to get the results you want are contained within the learning process. PoE does not do this, and this exact moment was when I realized it. I studied the skill tree for ten minutes following opening it, and I recognized what it actually was. This wasn't a "massive tree of endless possibilities". This was a trap-riddled minefield, where it was obviously way too easy to make the wrong choice and ruin your own fun, and if you didn't have a guide or a wiki open, your chances of navigating it successfully with intuitive choices was slim. Its design /forces/ the creation of build guides and wikis, not as conveniences or shortcuts, but as core and necessary tools. And I don't even have to defend that position, you can read the comments here. "Just wiki a build", "It's not hard if you just look it up", "Most of the nodes are pointless, just do what the guides say". They're right, but that's why this tree is bad. It doesn't explain itself. There's no learning curve, no onboarding, no guidance, no genuine room for error, and following your intuition at each juncture will not make a successful character. Players who refuse to open a wiki or build guide, unless they are particularly lucky, will spend dozens of fruitless hours, on strings of unplayable characters, repeating the same campaign chapters, making choices about their builds that they don't yet fully understand, but the game /requires/ the player to grasp to progress, yet doesn't explain. And if by some miracle they land on a path that's functional, it won't be because they understood their choice, or exactly why this path was good and another was bad. The success doesn't /teach/ anything. I recognize that the design of the tree (and PoE itself) was a direct reaction to the (over) simplification that came with D3. This skill tree was its selling point, but the designers went so hard on the "Big = Complex = Deep" fallacy that instead of creating a compelling and flexible way to customize your character, they created a massive barrier to entry with an overwhelmingly overdesigned illusion. The point that even the comments are making speaks for itself. There is no choice in this tree. Find the guide for the character you want to end up with, and do what it says, or waste all your time trying to make a character that in the end is very likely to be an objective failure. And if that's true, then why does the tree exist at all? And that's the greatest sin of this tree. It's a lie and it doesn't serve any purpose. It presents itself as a forest of possibilities and customization; but in reality, it's an obstacle to be overcome, not a forest to be explored. Exploring the tree is unrewarding, and the safe paths are not clearly marked. All this tree does is get in the way of your fun and funnel you to external resources so you can come back to the game and ignore the tree as you just click through the pre-determined choices. And if the choices for any build are pre-determined, with deviation leading to worse outcomes, then why not do away with the illusion of choice and make the final build the choice instead?

[@Madgoblinn]

I think you overestimate the complexity of the tree, it's not that all the nodes are useless, it's that a lightning damage node is useless to a fire damage build etc. don't get be wrong, it's absurdly hard to make a super high tier build when you're a new player, but if you truly want to do things on your own, if you really put a lot of thought into what you're doing on the tree, you can totally make a playable build that takes you to maps, if you play casually you'll not be able to create a good build though, not without experiencing the game for a hundred hours atleast first.

[@tashikat9040]

To me, the tree reflects the reigning design philosophy of PoE which I dislike: you need to 1) already know what you're doing before you start, and 2) you need to already know what third party tools and addons to use to make what you're doing possible. PoE for a new player, unless they're a streamer being paid to go into it, is incredibly hostile without a friend. And, even with a friend, a lot of the mechanics are hostile to playing together. Several of the events don't trigger resources for both, Delving with a friend is annoying, the game itself is incredibly long, the fact you need to do the *fucking* trials every new character to be able to actually develop your build... That's just the design. I'm not even go into what I heavily dislike about the gameplay. I really wish I could find PoE fun to play, but it's everything I don't like from Diablo 2 turned up to fifty.

[@Ormathon]

What new players often fail to realise and what high end players hate is that damage is not the king of all. Most builds spend half of their points on defensive nodes that just give life/ES and such. And even if a new player takes a high tier build, they will never be able to finish everything since you need to craft or trade to "finish" everything. So for new players its perfectly fine for them to fumble around and try out stuff that works, it usually works for white maps if you are somewhat goal oriented. But you learn really fast you cant just go full glasscannon unless you like respawning or know what you are doing :P.

[@Jrock420blam]

This is the most succinct thoughts I've seen on the matter, like any game with a fanatic fanbase they will defend objectively poorly done systems because they feel like any criticism is a direct attack on them but this perfectly sums up not only POE but many games today that use systems like this to project a pseudo sense of freedom and complexity

[@domacleod]

That's not the only problem with path of exile. Making any choice on the skill tree is basically irreversible. You can use memory orbs or whatever they were called to re-assign points, yes. One at a time. Those orbs are not found everywhere all the time. Making a wrong choice early on can make you struggle later on. Honestly even with the complexity of the skill... maze?, it'd still be fine if you could just experiment freely.

[@GMCecil4]

That alone makes it to where I wouldn't want to play a game this, it means I have to look up a build before I barley started the damn game. Since I can't mess around and make my own build.

[@LuisSilva-nn2ex]

It's so easy to buy enough of them to do a full respec, please dont spread misinformation...

[@roccoheat8662]

Beside the fact you can buy regret orbs fairly easily, the story also gives you quite a few respect points. Not limitless, but your choices are ment to have impact.

[@undeny]

choices have consequences my friend that's what makes them important choices

[@1IGG]

As many problems Diablo 3 has that was the best part. Every new level I unlocked a skill or a rune, could test them and they were not permanent. So much more experimenting without losing a second of progress. Adults don't have the time to make 5 shit characters till they find a build they like..

[@lothos112]

i just love the way u explain u ideas in this short clips and u have a great point in this one , who knows mayby developers gonna use your idea in poe2

[@shrekstacy]

I think your space bar key is broken mate

[@od1401]

He's absolutely right, that was literally the moment I quit. I had heard about the game and wanted in, levelled up or whatever, got to that screen, and bearing in mind I had just spent a long day at the office at work using my brain for 8 hours to do my job, I was just like "no thanks", and I moved on to something I could pick up and play like dark souls or the binding of the isaac. As soon as you become an adult and have to devote your time to work during the week, you have little resources left to spare. That's why it's important not to overwhelm players. Your game can still be deep and incredibly complex, but if the learning process and the early gameplay is good and you don't overload us we will savour and enjoy learning it over time. Presenting a mentally exhausted person with a screen like that will just make them alt f4 in 95%+ of cases. You gotta pace the learning process and implement a staggered, gradual system like josh says if your game is super complex like this.

[@mellowcorpsep6665]

@Frumentarii people fucking hate when other people enjoy parts of a game they dont. its sad

[@od1401]

@Frumentarii jesus christ talk about an overreaction. Nobody is saying the damn thing should be redesigned or the complexity removed, we're talking about having an effective tutorial, something that would have absolutely zero impact on the game's depth or difficulty. You really need to stop for a second and think about what people are saying before you fly off the handle. I've made the exact same arguments you have made to me to people who demand an easy mode in dark souls, and I firmly believe I was right to do so. Yet here I am being berated by you with the same arguments over a damn tutorial. Hopefully once you've calmed down you will see the difference.

[@ameteuraspirant]

I feel this so hard. After years I feel like I'm still barely getting a handle on the passive tree enough to make builds on my own that aren't complete trash only to have ggg introduce something, nerf everything else, and shake the meta up. The last league or so it was the "everything is omniscience" meta that just made me fully quit again.

[@prawojazdy858]

i played enough leagues to know that they can be hit and miss, granted i didnt play for like a year so no idea how good any of the recent leagues were, but how can you be mad at them introducing new stuff and balancing. they only balance at the start of the league too, the times they nerf something mid league is very rare and only at times where theyre fixing an exploit/oversight. not like blizz in D3 nerfing entire builds to the ground a week after a build guide got posted

[@waffleking6076]

'fully quit again' the life of a POE player

[@ayoCC]

POB and a discord chat with people who know strange niche ssf tricks to make your build work is the way. A lot of larger communities have a small PoE channel on discord, if the parent community is well moderated and nice, the poe channel will also be nice

[@svartursteinn]

I wish as part of their tutorial they made it much more obvious that what you can do is use the search bar to highlight what it is you want to do; That simple little function of being able to type in a word or two of what it is you want to build for is just right there and easy to use. Playing a witch and want to see how to boost your minions? Type in Minion, need to get more specific? Minion damage, minion health. It annoyed me that for weeks I didn't see this and was combing through the three like an idiot before noticing just how useful the search bar was.

[@cyriltournier5784]

I've played this game for a year and didn't know. Thanks ;)

[@TheOneSin7]

PoE is honest. They show you everything they got, no leashes, no guiding hands. Yes, it is much to handle when you start and even as a veteran you don't always know what to do. But the community is great, you have calculators and tools to assist you in your build and guides *shudder* to tell you what to aim for. Oh, and don't expect your only character to be able to run everything in the game ^^ There is the Delve, which is a giant underground mine with basically a sidescrolling mechanic, you have to push foreward right into hordes of monsters or you die. There is the Menagerie, which is close quarter fights against hard monsters you pick. There is the base story and there is the real game waiting for you after you've done everything. Welcome to the Atlas of Worlds, The Maven is interested in your performance. But watch out for the Eldritch Evils that lurk at the corners of reality. You will, at a certain point, need a different character to clear different places in the game. But you'll come to enjoy the pain, the game can be so rewarding if you see whole screens of monsters fall to your attacks, Bosses that have mechanics you actually have to play and memorize, and finding loot that actually matters, even the currency is not just gold. It is your crafting material for better gear. Enjoy the ride, have fun, and don't forget resistances. Always go for your resistances.

[@ninnoofthelastunicorn2693]

That moment is what actually got me to want to play it. Seeing the skill tree and hovering the over the skills to see what they do. Seeing a pattern, then going to the big key stone ones and the cool things they did was a joyful moment

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

Yep, imagine wanting to take adventure out of games. Removing that discovery feeling. This is the worst take I've ever seen Josh have. He's calling for more dumbed down games that have zero learning curve and everything is easily understandable at first glance. That's a shallow game. That's a game without complexity.

[@serafina2643]

@@DefianceOrDishonor his issue is that it's just completely not user friendly, if I understood him correctly.

[@martinrudolph5938]

@@DefianceOrDishonor its funny cause its the exact opposite, his point is that a big adventure is easier to take in if done by bits, if you spread a whole saga of books page by page and put it in front of someone and tell them "this is all you have to read in order to have fun" they will 100% be out before even taking in the first page. PoE does exactly that, he expalined that it would be better to expand the skill tree as the adventure expands not show me journey and destination right out of the gate in a gigantic, overwhelming mess.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

@@martinrudolph5938 Right, you want the game to treat people like they're stupid children. I understand the argument man. You want them to treat people like they can't manage making two choices on a skill tree-- and that's the reality of it, you start off with two choices. Left or right from your starting position. That's it. Showing people the full skill tree is necessary, and the search tool makes it *simple* to figure out where you want to go on it. Do you like Fire spells? Search up "fire". It's that simple. If you can't wrap your head around that you have genuine IQ problems... And yeah, I prefer larger books over shorter ones. If I like a story, I always want more of it. I have at times made judgements on whether to read a book based on how many pages there are. " if you spread a whole saga of books page by page and put it in front of someone and tell them" Have you ever read a physical book? You uh, can kind of gauge precisely that by how thick the book is... If someone is overwhelmed by a lot of pages they'll know it before they open the book up because they can see how thick the book is....... If you see a difference between spreading the pages out and simply looking at how thick a book is-- you're braindead. Seriously. If you can't look at a thickness of a book and understand that it's many pages, and you require the pages being spread out evenly in front of you to grasp it... You're dumb. So many smooth brain takes in this comment chain...

[@AlexActually]

@@DefianceOrDishonor As someone who had thousands of hours in the game, the passive tree is hella intimidating for new players who don't understand how stat scaling and search works yet. Don't let your bias of understanding how the tree and its UI blind you to the fact that it looks like a LOT at first glance.

[@SomeGuyWithAFace9]

in an interview chris wilson explained that the skill tree is *supposed* to be complex like this because if you are a player who takes one look at a giant skill tree and says "oh jeez this is way too much, this game isnt for me" then you were probably never going to enjoy path of exile very much in the first place, so its a somewhat deliberate attempt to show how complex the game is

[@TheArrivalCyberse]

That's just an excuse

[@T33K3SS3LCH3N]

It should at least start grouping skills into clearly labeled zones when you zoom out. Like "summons" or "fire magic" or "accuracy" or whatever. 1. Create a coloured area around each zone 2. Give users a tooltip for each area that lists some of the general ideas and strengths and weaknesses, as well as the key abilities. This would do so much to make the tree more approachable.

[@babyninjajesus2669]

they did, its called masteries

[@beefchampion2792]

You can do that with the search. When you type out a word the nodes that contain it get highlighted.

[@jcm2606]

The funny thing is, they did something like this with the atlas tree. Passives for certain types of map content are arranged in their own clusters, with each cluster having a central icon that you can either click or hover over, and similar clusters covering that same type of map content will be highlighted. Say you really like Delve, well you can find a Delve cluster on the tree and hover over the icon, and the other Delve clusters will be highlighted on the tree, so you can see where you need to path to, to be able to focus on Delve.

[@Zm0r]

Pretty much on point. First look at this skill tree and i was like OH, I NEED TO FOLLOW A GUIDE SO I DONT MESS THIS UP DONT I? Immediately put me off

[@yashuastryfe125]

its a single player game so it doesnt matter if you "mess up"

[@Zm0r]

@@yashuastryfe125 it kinda does tho. I couldnt progress far cause my build was shite as i refused to look up guides. Eventualy i did, and thats the last season i played. It turns out its not fun when its just a treadmil and you are following someone's instructions xD

[@Axthenon]

I actually liked exactly that: messing up many many characters until I learned myself how to make a good build. I play since 2013 and tbh you should never play this game thinking about the end game. It is a game you enjoy by yourself. Try to find new way to build your character, experiment, try to get further with each builds. Most players aren't even able to complete the 10 acts. People want to be Pro players before even playing the game and learning the basics.

[@Zm0r]

@@Axthenon Dunno, i just didnt find it fun getting stuck at some mediocre level because i had no idea what i am supposed to do. It's one thing to have options and completely another to be stuck with no idea why and how to fix it. Especially in a single player game. But if you enjoy something like that, that's fine. I am not saying games like this shouldnt exist, but i just didnt enjoy it.

[@Kaiyuni]

The other big problem is that you cannot (reasonably) experiment with the passive tree in PoE. I mean for all intents and purposes, it's honestly easier to just make a brand new character and just transfer whatever items you have over to the new person. So you have this cocktail of complexity that no new player could possibly understand, permanent choice because orbs of regret (I think they're called) are really rare, and a multitude of options and player power you haven't even been told about yet, because the number of skills you have access to at this point in the game don't even scratch the surface of the PoE iceberg. And I remember this moment from nearly a decade ago now. The first thing I did? Googled what the best builds were at the time. And I do that any time I come back to the game because I 100% cannot be bothered to learn it.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

You get numerous skill rerolls as you level and quest. Then when you're a higher level you find currency that resets skills as well. They're not "really rare" and are very cheap. You haven't played this game for more than a few hours I'd wager. You gave up when it wasn't fifth grade levels of simple. That's fine. It's not for everyone-- but don't act like the game is the problem when you have the attention span of a fifth grader.

[@Kaiyuni]

@@DefianceOrDishonor Okay, I'll preface this by saying that you have to keep in mind the argument I'm making is towards the game in general, but particularly rings true for newer players. At what point in the game does it get easier to find orbs of regret? I have played PoE since the *CLOSED BETA* (so longer than nearly anyone) and according to steam I have over 600 hours in the game over the years on the steam version, which is the primary way I played. I remember getting a small handful of orbs of regret. Like I'd have 20 or so of them or something. I admit I don't have hard numbers for it. But here's the problem with that, that is a character that has completely progressed through the story and is now in "the grind". I'd have to look it up to be certain, but the last time I played the game; you got orbs of regret very infrequently as quest rewards, and only one at a time. I'm going to tell you right now. You need like hundreds of them to be able to experiment on a single character more than just a single time. So I'll go a step further and use PoEtrade, which is an *external resource* the average new player would never think of checking because they don't know it exists. 1 chaos (pretty rare item) only gets you like 60 to 100 orbs of regret. Meaning that for each chaos orb you find, you can experiment with your character. But once again, this is after you've beaten the game and started major farming. When you have this level of permanence on one of your BIGGEST methods of power gains in the game (before the mega grind kicks in); you are going to push players to just look up whatever the current meta builds are on poe building and they just copy that.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

@@Kaiyuni "1 chaos (pretty rare item) only gets you like 60 to 100 orbs of regret. " So to put this into perspective, I've played 1800 hours, but generally rack up between 100 and 250 hours per league. I've played several leagues. In the first few hours of a league I should have found at least two or three chaos orbs. They're honestly not that rare. You can also trade *usually* 2 - 6 Alchemy Orbs for a Chaos Orb. Or other currency items. That's the brilliant part of their economy imo. Early on in a league, you won't get 60 - 100 orbs or regret for a Chaos though to be fair. Early in a league you'll likely get 20 - 30 for a Chaos Orb. Maybe even less. I'm playing devils advocate here, as I assume most new players will likely start up at the beginning of a league. So after about a dozen hours in a league I typically have my first Exalted Orb. An Exalted Orb sells for between 50 - 100 Chaos Orbs. So after about twelve hours, if I wanted, I could have upwards of 2000 Orbs of Regret. Obviously this is with a bit of game knowledge, understanding how trade works, etc etc. But you'd never need more than 50 Orbs of Regret anyways, and *that* would be pretty extreme. I believe you get around 15 - 20 skill resets from questing and leveling, and you should find several Orbs of Regret in that process. That's enough to reset about half your skill tree without even spending Chaos Orbs or trading or any of that. Also I typically find my first Chaos Orb when I'm like level 30 - 40. Sometimes I'll even find an Exalted Orb when I'm level 50 - 60 ( which is like four hours of gameplay for me roughly ). Also you don't 100% need to use the Trade site-- but also, it's not third party anymore. There's an official trade sit on the official POE website. On top of that there are also trade channels, and while you often won't get as good of deals there it's still something a new player could easily pick up *and in my opinion should think of, as trade channels are pretty common in multiplayer games* All of that said, I highly recommend new players follow build guides. There's nothing wrong about build guides in my opinion. The game is fairly complex. Most build guides are also pretty open ended-- they tend to have many options that you can make and choices for how to customize the build to your liking. That's not always the case, but yeah. And with that being said, a lot of suggestions I've seen in this comments section suggest giving new players the ability to just have a build guide baked into the game itself. POE is a real experience. You need to learn things to progress. That's not for everyone, but for the people who enjoy it? It's friggin' amazing. There are not many experiences like it unfortunately, which is why I get passionate about telling people to shut the hell up and go play Diablo 3 instead of trying to dumb down POE to the level of 99% of other games these days. Jesus that was a longer comment than I expected. Also if you ask in chat, there will 100% be several people that offer you help and advice because there's a really passionate playerbase and if people show that they *want* to learn, there will be people out there trying to help them learn.

[@Kaiyuni]

@@DefianceOrDishonor The problem is you're using nearly 2k hours worth of game knowledge to justify a bad design that's harmful to the new player experience because you happened to learn it and deal with it. It's not "a bit" of game knowledge. It's a ton that is completely unreasonable for the average player to be expected to know. Think of what you can learn or do in just under 2,000 hours. At 8 hours a day, you're nearly at 250 days worth of activity. That's an Associate's Degree/Half a college education (75 days/semester). Just because you can deal with it doesn't mean it's okay and can't be made better. I have over 600 hours on the game over the course of like a decade (although there are some big gaps in there, I admit) and you're correcting me and talking about playing at probably blinding speeds for anyone new. Many players will never get to that point of trying to learn the game. They'll just uninstall it and go play something else. I've literally watched and listened to it happen with personal friends of mine that play other complex RPGs with deep systems. Putting the atrocious feature creep of PoE aside, I'm astonished they never consolidated the passive tree in a way that would look less nonsensical. Literally just merge half the tree together because more than half of it are the exact same nodes, just repeated. Then orbs of regret (something new players don't know how to easily get, unlike us) have twice as much value.

[@kasdjkfghalksjdhg]

What I've always been told about PoE (and can confirm by having played it for no small amount of time): You either know someone who's played this game for a long, long time and is willing to hold you by the hand for many months; or You are comfortable looking up every single thing you do on the wiki for many years. Nobody else survives.

[@rexblaze4]

This is true. Started off my first character blind. He fell off hard around the time you have to do the first trial and I couldn't really figure out why that happened. Next character, I went to the wiki and build resources, pre-planned the whole tree (including ascendancies) before I even created the character and when I completed the first trial and got my first ascendancy skill point, I just felt sorta meh with the whole thing. It was like grinding IRL, there was no excitement or joy of discovery and so I just let the game go.

[@Prengle]

There's two types of people. Those who fear the nodes and those who were born for them

[@visidenvisidane1155]

I played this on the PS4 and the tree was a bit more zoomed in if I recall. The thing is, I already knew that it was going to be huge because I played FFX. It’s not the size that bothers me as I was actually intrigued by it. What I think should be explained more and earlier on are the ascendancy classes. Because the grid may be huge, but the ascendancy classes are more focused. Yeah, you could pick witch and then make a beeline for the strength and melee nodes so you can watch a tiny woman in heavy plate spinning about with a great axe, but you still have to pick between Elementalist, Necromancer, and Occultist. Knowing the advanced classes your character is limited to would give you more focus on what you want to do.

[@Frey_64]

FFX Sphere grid was amazing . thats why I felt in love with poe at first

Don't worry, there's one more when you get to maps 😂 The funny thing is that they have a built in build guide feature that gives you helpful tips on where to go on the China realm, but they don't want that for the rest of us, because the community guides are so much better. I'm inclined to agree, but a lot of players are not going to play that way 😁 Also personally I didn't find it particularly daunting. I was excited to figure it out. Though the respect cost could use some work, to be fair.

[@Berryflavoured]

so then you have to use community guides to be able to play the game. that's not right.

[@Scereye]

@@Berryflavoured if you dislike 3rd party apps/guides, PoE is honestly not the game for you. And I'm saying this as a long time PoE player. (and just as a footnote: I agree that it's not right, but given GGGs history when it comes to various aspects of the game, this will never change)

[@gamersedge4867]

@@Berryflavoured no you have to use community guides to increase your understanding of the game, the fun in poe is acquiring knowledge rather than knowing the whole game after completing the tutorial

[@Deminese2]

@@Berryflavoured Arpgs have always used community guides for ages. This is a thing for the genre. you don't need a guide to get to the end game but DO NOT expect to beat all end game bosses etc without one.

[@YasaiTsume]

@@Berryflavoured PoE is the sort of game where it's like learning muscle memory when it comes to its systems. Even the progression can be practiced till you instictively know what to do at what point of the game. For example, even quests at stages, given enough play through, you will instinctively know the best path to take to knock out as many Skillpoint giving quests at once. All these programs and guides? It's there to make the practice easier.

[@hazukichanx408]

*This is the _Sphere Grid_ of Path of Exile. But yes, you make a good point about the zoom out thing, that wouldn't subtract much if anything from the experience and it would be great for new players to not immediately feel overwhelmed, or... obsessive ones like me, kinda sorta scrolling around and trying to take in all the possibilities right away.

[@jplayer073]

If they made the UI for the skill tree more easy to parse at a glance, and the ability to filter out complexity, they'd retain way more players.

[@heinokunzelmann8967]

I am 100% certain the people who quit over the skill tree would not have stayed if it was "easier to read". In the first place, how does a new player know what to filter out? And btw, you can already search/highlight specific boni. Your point is entirely moot.

[@thechugg4372]

@@heinokunzelmann8967 Dude you can easily make a table like every casual RPG does "Abilities" "Survival" "Combat", like what the fuck is all this?

[@heinokunzelmann8967]

@@thechugg4372 A table isn't nearly as cool as a giant skill tree. If you don't think that's as fun to explore as an actual game level, then I'm sorry that you're a boring person. Luckily people like you can be boring and just follow a guide. PoE's skill tree is an attraction point, a distinction from other ARPGs and a meme. It's something that sparks interest the moment you see it or someone tells you about it. These qualities are invaluable for marketing purposes.

[@RutabagaSwe]

The thing is, while it seems very intimidating at first, the game kind of lets you get away with bad choices for the campaign. You will probably die a bunch in the second half if you don't add any life or defense but just clearing the campaign doesn't require a very good build. Once you hit maps though, you need to either be a PoE savant or use a guide to not get completely brickwalled by the game. The only problem with introducing the tree at a smaller scale first though, is that where you need to put your skill point right now is decided by where you need to put your skill point at level 80+ so if you don't look ahead, you will end up with a garbage build.

[@MontegomeryLoL]

I had life and defense and just got farmed by the first boss of act 6 or 7 (I don't remember which) unavoidably one-shotting me. I quit then and haven't played again. There's a lot I like about Path of Exile, but it doesn't have Diablo 2's ease of just starting over again.

[@RutabagaSwe]

@@MontegomeryLoL My guess is that you had no resistances, as after clearing the act 5 boss you get a 30% penalty to all resistances. If you don't start putting on gear that brings you up to around 75% you will usually have a bad time, but that generally doesn't have that much to do with the passive tree. I'm not arguing that the game is quite unforgiving though, especially since respecs are not going to be possible early on in the game. But again, i do think it's fair to say that you can generally get away with a pretty bad build in the campaign. You will for sure rack up a few deaths, but it's very beatable in my opinion. That said, i'd recommend anyone that wants to play the game to at least try reading up on a build or some general tips on how to make your character work before quitting. Once you get over that initial hump of understanding how to get through the game, it becomes a ton of fun :)

[@tictacterminator]

​@@MontegomeryLoL I disagree, I would NEVER played hardcore on diablo 2 I only played hardcore in PoE if you mostly grabbed life and armor passives you were doing GOOD you probably just didn't have the skillgems or gear or something idk

[@Itory1337]

What beginners see: "Oh, so many possibilities" What pessimists see: "Oh no, I will never get them all!" What experienced gamers do: "Ok, what is the only accepted skillset currently, let me open a guide..."

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

What low IQ gamers with goldfish attention spans do "Ahh this is too much I must quit now because the games offered me meaningful choices and I don't know which one to makesses1231~!"

[@johnk6757]

There are literally like hundreds of viable builds in POE and each one will have options/variations depending on playstyle and current gear and gameplay goals. But you do have to be quite knowledgable of the game to design your own build and have it work in the endgame.

[@emanmodnar2]

And then theres me; "Im going to equip every random gem that drops and see what happens."

[@iandakariann]

Many others will see: fk this sht I'm out If I wasn't a Read The Fk Manual person and already had a beginners guide I would've been like that. Thanks to the guide I just went mindless and followed the starting build until I understood what I was looking at. But you shouldn't need an outside guide for that. You should have something in game to help bring a person in. There's a lot of players who could've been POE fans if the game didn't spook them.

[@HermanManly]

@@iandakariann Well, that just means that the game isn't meant for those people, right? Designing a game for the right audience is more important when it comes to passion projects. Otherwise you get a bunch of whining babies crying that the game is too hard because they don't have the right mindset to play the game and improve.

[@K_E_Robin]

That idea Josh tells at the end is the perfect solution to this problem! Just zooming out when you filled a part of the grid! Brilliant!

[@Aussie_Tom]

Ever since FFX I've been absolutely in love with these 'sphere grid' systems of skill progression. I loved it in Skyforge before they removed it, and I really like it here. I can never get into ARPGs so I don't play PoE, but I've been tempted many times simple due to the skill tree.

[@NabsterHax]

The thing about FFX is that you can always grind out more levels to correct any mistakes you've made or spec into different parts of the tree. In PoE you're stuck with what you chose.

[@niegilsuck3072]

@@NabsterHax not true at all you can respec everything on the tree?

[@emanmodnar2]

I'm no ARPG king or anything, but for a game thats about hitting stuff and making it explode pretty then dropping piles of loot, its pretty good at what it does. Finding out you can make custom loot filters so you dont even have to see drops you arent interested in, change highlight colors or even add custom sound effects via an officially sanctioned third party tool, my personal enjoyment increased. Also the people I was streaming for stopped weeping from the sheer volume of loot that was visible on my screen all the time, lmao.

[@tinypixiebread]

Yeah... I started playing this game like few days ago, as soon as I open up the Skill tree menu I literally had the same "Oooookay... fuck this..." moment. Just like what Josh said, I don't mind complicated system and skill tree, fun fact, I love complication as long as it is well introduce to me and it is fun to learn. Not looking into ...a ROOT of a skill tree

[@Deminese2]

It looks complicated. It isn't. Go look up builds and you will see a pattern of what people generally choose to take.

[@NabsterHax]

@@Deminese2 "It looks complicated. It isn't." Yes, that's the problem. The moment you're asking me to look up external resources, you might as well not have the tree at all, because then all I'm doing is copying someone else's choices.

[@knightdtd]

Imo a good game should encourage you to play the game yourself, not encourage you to go look up stuffs.

[@Elysiumlost]

@@Deminese2 see that’s exactly the issue. You see this and your first thought is “oh shit I have to look up guides for this game?” Now it’s becoming work.

[@NabsterHax]

@Frumentarii “Have you played a bunch of Diablo Immortal? I know it’s pay to win, which is an element you might immediately hate but don’t be a pussy and give up without trying.” Like, do you even watch this channel? “It gets good after X hours” is a shit reason to play a game that’s actively putting you off in the first hour.

[@Cygnus888]

They could implement some kind of template system where it shows you which nodes to pick and every class has a few basic templates for first time players. Also make it prominent the first time the skill tree is opened up. And add the ability to create or import custom templates. I know there are tools outside of the game, but it would be better if something similar is integrated so you don't have to alt-tab.

[@Balandrus]

The problem is that third party programs, like Path of Building, are all but required.

[@lw8882]

Yep. The same is true of trade. They insist you use the website instead of integrating it into the client. There's a lot of archaic design and decisions that go into PoE.

[@StalkerOfTheZone]

@@lw8882 The Trade website is way easier to use and maintain as a website then having it integrated into the client. If they moved it into the client, we would likely lose the trade extensions, live searches, and of course the ability to check on trade without starting the client.

[@akhlives2385]

First time I opened up the skill tree I was amazed, in a good way. I was burned by Blizzard long ago with their paper thin skill tree change, going overboard sounds like an acceptable option. I do think the refunding points could be a little nicer for newer players though

[@giftedfox4748]

I know when someone new to gaming look at the skill tree, they don't understand what they are seeing and don't want to take the time to learn. Some people just want a quick rush of excitement, where they will say "yeah, I'm good" then start playing something else. Then you have people who love to know how in-depth your character can be and love games like POE because of the amount of different builds you can do. I like to call these people DND at heart.

[@emina15]

I was watching a friend play PoE when he showed me the skill tree. It was the exact moment I knew the game was not for me.

[@lw8882]

@Greynold Godrig It doesn't matter how easy it is. If it's not explained well it stops being easy to learn. It's actually not explained at all by GGG in the game. You're just left to pick shit yourself and brick your first half dozen builds with int nodes.

[@demokdawa]

@@lw8882 Whats the problem with int nodes ? xD Seriously tho, i get that poe is too complex, but the problem is the alternatives have absolutely no depth at all. Diablo 3 is boring as fuck when you tried all the classes the endgame is reallly repetitive. The only problem of poe is having to do your research yourself to improve. Like i did in warframe when i first started, and many other games. I like that knowledge is something important and best players are simply the ones that know much of the game. 90% of diablo 3 players just create a char, get it powerleveled by another person, then copy a ladder build without even reading the items (and complain on facebook when it dosn't work xD), do the objectives of the season in one or two weeks max, then quit and wait for another season.

[@Odyssey636]

@@lw8882 and thats how arpgs are. Imagine needing a booklet to hold your hand thru everything in game. I bet your the one who reads the directions on literally every single product you buy and assemble. Even if its like 3 steps.

[@twiztedsnake13]

Limiting skill respecs through orbs of regret discourage experimenting with the skill tree. If the orbs of regret gave more skill points back or they let you respec more easily in some other way, experimenting would be more likely. With the way it is now your character will likely be terrible and people will usually just tell you to make a new character. Starting their character over isn't what a new player wants to do just because they didn't know what they were doing when it came to the passive tree.

[@Ofjkk]

On the other hand Poe had so many forced skill tree resets I forgot all my builds by the time it got reset for the 8th damn time

[@ArakDBlade]

It's in service to a nostalgic idea of Diablo 2 and how there were no guard rails back then either. That said I don't think PoE is *trying* to attract new players these days as much as keep pulling the old ones back to buy new supporter packs

[@khornetto]

I'd personally let people change skills freely. Click and unclick as needed, no respec points or anything. At the moment you have 20 points? Can allocate 20. Dislike a choice? de-select them and select something else. A big respec bonus would be included just for the sake of undoing everything quick.

[@gamersedge4867]

@@Ofjkk honestly not that many its once, every 3 MONTHS

[@rayakoth]

My gut instinct tells me that the tree has deceptions instead of straight forward pathing. If the tree is designed straight forwardly, they can afford to unlock the tree little by little. However, if something like, wildly different scaling, weird passive effects that scales on defensive stats (classic example would be something like shield slam), or some other unintuitive stuff down the line, AND if the game charges for resetting the tree, perhaps showing the full tree is a necessary evil.

[@SpecificAlmond]

​@@SeasoningTheObese You obviously have not played a lot of Poe if that's your take. Firstly, this game was out before diablo 3. Secondly build diversity is legitimately better than ever, unless your goals are to kill the uber pinnacle bosses within 1 week on ssfhc. Thirdly, you get 123 passives max (128 as Ascendant class) to spend on your character, and even if you wanted to, you still cant spend them all on dex, not that you would, as even dex stacking builds need other things too.

[@Axthenon]

​@@SeasoningTheObese I play since beta in 2013 and I can't stress enough how wrong you are. Obviously it take a lot of time to understand the game and to this day I learn everyday still. I play around 5 to 20 builds in a season and all of them are theory-crafted by me. Most will do endgame and maybe 2 or 3 will do better than expected and do shit like 100% delirium or kill endgame bosses in fewer than 3 seconds. I have made multiple level 100 where nobody was doing the same build as me and I looked deep in PoE ninja just to be sure.

[@burakersoy5902]

@@SeasoningTheObese Have you ever played poe or just spouting uninformed ''information'' you heard or thought of ... Even if you are playing a str or dex stacking build you need to put a lot of skill points into different nodes or notables than attribute nodes in the tree. If you dump all your nodes into attributes I promise you, you would have a very bad time with your ''build'' .

[@bobjim245]

I literally done exactly what you said... opened the skill tree and was instantly flooded with "what the fuck is all this, im going to need a wiki understand what is even happening

[@Kuzka_]

This tree and visible complexity is what pulled me into poe. Seeing options that are available to me, but not right away, is what pushed me to play more. I hate playing a game just for it to turn out to not have any engaging stuff in it.

[@serkman9558]

this is still possible when you provide a way to learn the complexity. poe does it wrong. Look at this passive tree and realize about how theres actually not much mechanics, its just unintuitive explained hidden etc. theres bo ingame ressources to learn things about the game, you need like 3 thirdparty addons and at least 3-4 websites to learn and run the game.

[@penckok1832]

@@serkman9558 a whole bunch of words to admit you're dumb and lazy.

[@Dark_Peace]

The tutorial in my game was quiet the info dumping in the past but now that I remade it multiple times people find it easy to learn. I think those devs wanted people to be able to plan their every skill decisions but they didn't think about that noone would know what anything means.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

Or you're just bad dude. The devs know what they're doing, that's why they're operating one of the most succesful ARPGs of all time........ You want a dumbed down simple game that is easy to understand at first glance-- that would alienate the playerbase of POE. We want a complex game. The real problem here is that there are thousands of dumbed down games for your fifth grader intellect. Go play them. Don't complain about an adult game. Thanks.

[@Dark_Peace]

@@DefianceOrDishonor I'm not invalidating your fun. But Josh has shown multiple times games that had a 95% player drop in the first 30m. Like Josh said, it's all about presenting the information. If you read a book (crazy thing) and the space between 2 lines is too small so each line is half on the one above, it's not gonna be completely unreadable, and the story might be excellent, but you can't blame 95% of people for not going through the pain of trying to read it. If that's how you wanna have fun, fine.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

@@Dark_Peace Path of Exile probably has a much larger audience that actually reads books compared to Diablo 3 mate. I'm sorry, but your opinions are invalid. Go play every other game that's been dumbed down for the masses. I actually read books man. I don't have the attention span of a goldfish like most zoomer gamers do these days. Books also don't have search bars, POE does. You can search up anything in the skill tree, like "fire" and find all the fire skills easy. This isn't one of them. It's not designed for that. The devs straight up don't care what you think. They have even said that the Skill Tree is meant to be a filter for people like you. And frankly, trying to say that POE turns off 95% of people when it's one of the most successful ARPGs of all time is just hilarious and petty. "Josh has shown multiple times games that had a 95% player drop in the first 30m." What are you even saying here? A 95% player drop in the first 30 minutes? POE has been out for several years and has a wildly passionate fanbase... What are you even on about?

[@benito1620]

@@Dark_Peace POE's MASSIVE success shows that Josh is wrong. There is a huge market for games that aren't casual handhold fests that prevent you from having fun because they're terrified any real complexity will scare off their player base.

[@patrickmahomes3616]

lmao, wtf that dude came out guns blazing when you talked down to his favorite RPG. so much talk about fifth grade while throwing a hissy fit and hurling insults towards a complete rando. you hurt him, dude. i don't know how but you really hurt that poor chap

[@Vherax]

As a PoE player, I’ve been saying the exact same thing for years now! Thank you!

[@DobbyTheGamer]

As a lover of complex games, he is harsh but absolutely correct. Old games that are worth playing are unplayable or dying now due to dropping new players into the deep end immediately. Heroes of Newerth, Savage, Everquest, Quake 3, etc. And now what we see is all of the excessive handholding and cookie cutter simplification of gaming that makes it feel hollow, and that's before the microtransactions.

[@qazaq25]

As someone that's played probably too much path of exile the awkward part is explaining to a new player that the skill tree is actually a somewhat simple part of the game and the real complexity comes latter...

[@DimkaTsv]

Yeah... And even decent players in PoE can be completely trash as players, when trying to fix or adjust build

[@amzarnacht6710]

This. The skill tree is daunting to LOOK at, but pretty simple. It's when you get into uniques vs/ rares, jewels, skill gems of so many different varieties (standard, anomalous, divergent, awakened...), their support gems and *their* various varieties. 'Threads of Hope' and jewels that heavily modify the skill tree.... When players see those, then take a look at a streamer's build guides who call a build 'cheap or moderately expensive' at 20 exalts and the player discovers how much fucking *WORK* goes into making a single exalt... That's when they dump the game and move on.

[@lightworker2956]

I don't really agree. The skill tree is probably easy for you because you've either filled it out tens or hundreds of times already, and/or you're using a guide. Meanwhile the end game is "more complex" to you because you haven't spent thousands of hours there yet. But for a new player, both are new.

[@Paddzr]

Because you just copy existing build? Nah, lets not kid around the bush here. People copy builds. What's the % of players who actually understand and make their own builds?

[@DimkaTsv]

@@lightworker2956 nah, it because skill tree is kinda linear, and can easily be calculated, especially with POB existing... But when you come to items, interaction become so freaking whacky, so you sometimes cannot even grasp WHY this item is trash, and this one is pure gold.

[@subzero0000]

agree. It's so early in the game. At least wait till I'm a bit more hook on to it then show me the whole tree. It's like asking a kid what he want to be when grow up, then immediately show him the list of university and class schedule, expect the kid to plan ahead.

[@Herr_Damit]

WTF?? This was the moment I knew I would spend more time theorycrafting builds than actually playing and liking every second of it.

[@glaziumtck8593]

Most people don't like the idea of actualy having to use their brains. Especialy not at the start of the game when you don't even know if you'll play it for 30 minutes or for years. I'm sure you're heard alot of "i just turn my brain off" and similar versions of this in games.

[@T0b1maru]

Most enjoyable time playing PoE is using the builder before the league starts. And realizing your build works in game after reaching lvl 90 but don't want to continue because of the massive grind to get to the real endgame is the worst part.

[@Sybridge0210]

I'm opposite of what Josh said. When i pressed P for first time huge variety makes my heart race and after several years it is still my best game ever.

[@babyninjajesus2669]

"dont give them the most complicated part" oh they didnt, they gave you the simplest, if the most complicated part is mount everest they started you off in the marina trench

[@tor3358]

What are you even talking about? The skill tree is easily the most complicated part. Sorting out resistances and the gear you need are later steps and self-explanatory once you understand how to make a build and what build you're specifically using.

[@babyninjajesus2669]

@@tor3358 you think the game is just the skill tree and resistances? Did you make it to act 2?

[@zaferoph]

@@babyninjajesus2669 The skill tree is far more complicated than any other part of thr game by miles. You will fuck your build up with a few small mistakes in there but your abilites are simple. Your abilties you put into a socket and they do damage and you can make them function differently or do more damage by using linked support gems. The abilities are no more complicated than Diablo or WoW abiltiies. The skill tree is overwhelmingly complicated cause if you wanna do a Fire Damage Build as a Ranger that is a different path than doing a tri-elemental build. These two builds need different things and can interact differently with different skills and abilities (abilities which rely on specific selection in your skill tree). Also, you can freely change abilities but not skills. Changing skills use a rare resource that even after act 6 isn't common. Getting your skills right is more important than getting your abilities right at any point in the campaign. Yall PoE vets are so delusional about the truth of the game. You got into it probably 8+ years back when PoE truly was unqiuely complex. That is not as true today as it used to be.

[@blackomega34]

@@zaferoph I'm sorry mate but you literally can't have made it past act 2 with this opinion, the game's gearing, resistances, ascendancies, many forms of content to learn (abysses, incursions, immortal syndicate, blights, expeditions, current league mechanic etc.), endgame systems etc. are all way more to learn that a skill tree that gives you damage and life.

[@zaferoph]

@@blackomega34 In act 7 rn, I only just put any thought into the actual stats on my gear aside from if it has evasion/energy shields or not and the slots of it. I have 8 or 9 slots that don't have any use cause there are no skills that boost my effectiveness available to me. I basically only die to lag or times when for no apparent reason I just take 3 times the damage I was taking 2 seconds ago but mostly lag. Ascension classes are single track. If I'm shadow with huge crit focus I go assassin. If I'm poison based I go trickster. If I'm trap/mine based I go saboteur. I only recently had to add resistances on my gear but only cause the game is so bad at balancing that it nerfs your resistances by 30% about halfway through. Before then my gear just would have 10-30% on it all and I'd just have 60% total in each. Maybe you are just really really bad at the game?

[@cascade1788]

My first experience with the game was similar, I felt overwhelmed but I pushed through and did a few playthroughs with various builds until I settled on one and had more advanced knowledge. Overall I thought the game was amazing and recommended it to my friends, but they could never get past the skill tree and always quit in the intro. Since then I've thought about coming back to PoE many times, researching the tree and skills more and trying to make my own build, but with a job and other commitments it just required too much effort and research to re-start. Even with experience of the games systems and the potential they have when it all comes together, I feel the initial hurdle is too big unless you have the patience and time to commit to it. Tldr; it's the best ARPG on the market, but I imagine it would be far more popular if it was easier to pick up and play.

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

If it was easier to pick up and play it would be more boring. You don't want to invest time learning a game and that's fine dude, it's not for everyone-- but please, can you just stick to the 99% of other games that are simplistic enough for four year olds to grasp at first glance? Can you room temperature IQ troglodytes please leave one of the very rare complex games alone? Please? Can you not ruin this for us? That would be amazing. You and your goldfish attention span friends can all go play Diablo 4. Seriously. I'm so tired of this nonsense. It's really not that complex of a game anyways. It's extremely easy to understand the skill tree after you spend five or ten minutes trying to grasp it-- but that's too much effort for this generations gamers. So yeah, just go play a Blizzard game dude. The people that play POE enjoy it for what it is. Dumbing it down would make us not enjoy it. Feel free to take a look at World of Warcrafts history to see that this is also how WoW was killed off. The dumbing down of systems to try to make it more appealing to a wider audience only for the core audience to be alienated and then the new audience not really having any real connection with the game-- and now it's a cesspool of microtransactions and doesn't even feel like an MMORPG for the most part. Just shut up, leave POE alone, and go play some mind numbingly low IQ games. There's thousands of them. Please leave the one that isn't a brain dead game alone. Seriously. Just shut up.

[@slvrsurfer1429]

Your reaction is priceless, I remember feeling like that. POE is one of those games that I walked away from a couple times before something made me go 'I want to see if I can do this'. Now, it is one of the most rewarding games I have ever played. The feeling you get when a build starts to come together and you stary smashing everything is amazing. And....it doesn't cost 20k to be able to do that. I personally feel (especially when they have a sale) that if you spend $60.00 you can get everything you need for all you arpg farming needs. However, I do think GGG should have a few curated in game beginner build guides where it recommends a certain path on the tree. Might go a long way to retain new players.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

Nah dude. That's not a tree. That's a freaking forest. If they want new players, they need to clear-cut the forest, or at least, pretend to. Pretend it's a tree. Then show us the next one in whichever direction we put a few points in to. Or Hell, if it's basically Skyrim and has like 12 different trees, steal that sort of UI and show it to us that way. Even if you could basically pick any perk from any Skyrim tree at any point, it would be way less confusing. (Also, wouldn't really make sense to make Master Alteration Spells Cost 10% less when you just learned Novice ones, so I think players could intuit most good or bad choices in Skyrim) WTF do you do here?

[@shingshongshamalama]

Oh wait what it's pay-to-win? Fuck that.

[@1OtherMr]

bruh they need a better tree. there are some shit nodes, and the game is a tug of war between gamers that min max shit and devs nerfing everything that isn't a fireball aoe build, with everyone else getting caught in the middle

[@TMilla0]

@@shingshongshamalama The only "pay to win" thing they have is buying storage space. It does affect gameplay because, well storage, but it doesn't affect your character's strength. I believe everything else in the game's store is cosmetic. Also, my biggest problem with the skill tree isn't that it's massive, it's that you need a fairly currency item to respec a single point (not counting a 20? you get from quests). For a new player not immediately going to guides, you're going to build a character so badly that 20 is not going to be enough. I bricked my first 3 characters and couldn't get them into yellow maps by bad tree decisions and didn't want to spend every penny I had respecing them into a decent tree.

[@IncomingLegend]

I have no problems with this presentation and anyone assuming that this is enough for people to stop playing, it just means they didn't had any will to play in the 1st place...