Five Major Spell Nerfs & Buffs in Dungeons and Dragons 2024

[@WereLink]

I would've loved having a contested spellcasting modifier test for counterspell. Basically a mental version of grappling mechanics.

[@MrJhaohh]

We need more contested fight in d&d

[@broomemike1]

Lol, and guess what was removed!!!! Contested checks for grappling! I love a lot of the changes they made. But I agree your version is better, and I preferred the old grappling rules.

[@sixpack4blue]

What always bugged me about the 5e version of counterspell was that against say a 7th level spell a 3rd level counterspell was just as effective against it as a 6th level counterspell. Makes no sense to me

[@jameslewis9292]

I use homebrew rules for Counterspell which require a sliding DC Arcana check vs. the spell being cast in order to attempt Counterspelling, and I put a limit to where only similar magic types can be countered, meaning the caster has to have experience with the type of magic ie. arcane, divine, etc. in order to counterspell it. I always hated how easy it was for anyone to counterspell any type of spell being cast...

[@Mishima76]

I would have the two spellcasters roll off. Casting bonus plus the level you're casting.

[@RJWdevelopment]

I do like how much there are now obvious two-character combos sprinkled throughout the new rules. encouraging cooperation and creativity is always a welcome improvement.

[@redhoodie4111]

I love when my players do combos

[@Herbalizer28]

there were already plenty of two characters combos..this new edition is going to create a bunch of other "issues" while trying to fix previous "issues" ..they should have just fixed the 5e edition with all the feedback and years of experience from players...instead, they tried to make it more like a video game, and re-worked a bunch of rules which some of them will become the new way min-maxer are going to abuse...

[@TheJurzerker]

​@Herbalizer28 but everybody has different feedback about 5e. Some people's feedback has 100% been addressed, some people's it went the wrong direction, most are a mixed bag. 5e still exists and if 2024 doesnt give me what i want for a specific campaign, ill use 5e or 3.5 or any of the various systems i have at my disposal. But im atleast going to try 2024 before i decide what it is or isnt.

[@angelagranger760]

Unless you play in a group where nobody else plays a spellcaster.

[@broomemike1]

@@RJWdevelopment I totally agree!

[@Shaderox]

I kinda like the direction they were going with for new Counterspell, although, i think instead of a Con save (man, I've used a lot of Con save spells recently and they just about never lands because everything and everyone is good or decent at con saves), I think a better thing in terms of both mechanics & flavor would be for it to be a contested check between the caster & counterspeller using their own spellcasting modifiers with a bonus for the level of spellslot used for each of the spells. now THAT is a wizard duel.

[@Doul3le_T]

Rules are meant to be broken, and it's the DM and player's table. This is pretty much what I was thinking of for running at my tables. :)

[@Sirfinchyyy]

Other editions required a check to determine the spell being cast, as well as having prepared an appropriate spell to counter the effects. It used valuable spell slots from both sides so one party didnt have to "waste" their slots countering spells that could be recast immediately on the next turn. And martial classes could interrupt the casting process by attacking as they would normally.

[@murphieslaw6932]

Totally agree. If my next campaign has counter-spellers in them I surely will propose this to my DM. Actually, gonna propose this anyways, if he plans on counter-spelling my own casts - much more fun this way ! XD Always loved the way Shadowrun or some older Warhammer 40k editions (plus the original Necromunda edition) used contested throws for every melee duel, determining the amount of attacks the loser got - or none, if a stalemate. Unless you had extra feats that changed this, of course... Why does nobody do this in their games all too much ? I always felt way more accomplished by the dueling dice throws (plus boni added) and it is waaaay closer to an actual fight, too. AND works for mage duels, too. Everybody likes those, right ? It CAN slow down the game, that´s a given, but I think it does so in a meaningful way.

[@littleoldmanboy]

It’s a saving throw so that monsters can use legendary resistances on it

[@michaelcross7665]

I like this better than new or old counterspell tbh

[@TheRealOfficialGator]

The true nerf is the nerf to dungeon masters who have to wait an extra 3 months before they can start planning their next campaign

[@ntmetroid]

DM Handbook finally came out at FLGs today……..BUT the Monster Manual isn’t out til February…. Youre killing me smalls!

[@lockskelington314]

Or they can just not use the new version and just take what they want from it!

[@daniellmarsden1797]

I think it was 4th edition that had counterspell use opposing arcana checks to see if the spell was countered or not. That always felt very flavorful to me. Like a contest of skill and knowledge to see if you could disrupt their spellcasting.

[@gyarados6665]

Another plus for True Strike; the way some of the Weapon Mastery options are worded, you can use them with this cantrip, making it another reason for a caster to think about the Fighter dip.

[@АндрейЕмельянов-с8ш]

And weapon masteries use modifyer that was used for attack, so it would have good dc

[@Kirk9019]

This is the exact reason I am playing a fighter/wizard in the 2024e Tyranny of Dragons campaign my brother is running. Human sage for double magic initiate at level 1. Taking wizard for shield, true strike and prestidigitation, and druid for guidance, shillelagh, and healing word. He's a noble who had his fighter training paid for by his parents, and then went to wizarding school and fell in love with knowledge.

[@ryadinstormblessed8308]

16:58 "The Monster Manual being a resource for Players is always problematic." As a DM, I kind of agree with this. But as a Player, one of the things I love most about Wildshape is diving through the MM to find fun new options for Beasts I can use. And while the new PHB includes more low-level Beast options for Wildshape to use, even JCraw mentioned in the release video that Circle of the Moon Druids will still need to dive into the MM for their higher CR options. The only way I could see getting around this is if there were a Beastly Wildshapers and Polymorphers Supplement that just provides every single Beast option available for those features.

[@Sirfinchyyy]

There's no real reason to deny the MM to your players, unless they can't stop themselves from metagaming, but as a dm you can always say:" there's no way you could know this obscure creature's few weakneses." Or re-flavour the enemy so your players have to guess what they're up against.

[@shawnwolf5961]

I fail to see how this is problematic. I have been DMing for YEARS and never had an issue with this.

[@ryadinstormblessed8308]

@@shawnwolf5961 You obviously have mature and sensible players. Good for you. I currently do as well, but I've known a few who would need an annoying degree of babysitting and reminding in such matters. In any case, I did say "kind of agree" with Monty there. Not fully.

[@broomemike1]

​@@Sirfinchyyy Let's rephrase it, then: Why would you force your players to buy an additional book because they are wanting to play a druid or cast a single spell?

[@Orcawsom]

what is the point of being a summoner if im not summoning creatures. yes i know you are still summoning them flavour wise with the new conjure spells- but not mechanically. its a huge disconnect between the gameplay and what is actually happening.

[@guamae]

I feel like the limiting factor on Spiritual Weapon was how slow it was... Now that it's concentration, they should have made it faster 🤷

[@0Fyrebrand0]

Yeah, it definitely feels bad in fights where enemies are moving around a lot and the weapon just can't keep up. Having to concentrate on something like that is a no go.

[@guamae]

@@0Fyrebrand0 yeah, it never worked for me in Baldur's Gate either... It'd help with one enemy, but then just couldn't get to a second.

[@Geese17]

It died off very quickly for me so I never ended up using it. I still feel people who seem to love this spell ALOT but I don't think it's THAT great now, even before

[@2MeterLP]

@@guamae In BG3 its kind of nice that is counts as a creature. Soaked up a lot of hits.

[@MrSeals1000]

​@@Geese17Oh it's never been actually great xD just gave clerics something to do with their bonus action, it usually only add like 4 damage per round

[@laglord]

The last game I played a wizard in became exhaustingly counterpsell focused. Many of the main baddies were high level casters, often working in groups. More than a than a few combats I was so shut down by counterspell, then having my counterpell of their counterpell counterpelled. I would sometimes just have to almost give up on actually directly doing anything with my turn. I ended up just trying to time it so I could burn their reactions at the moment for my team to have some kind of opening. I had my revenge in the end though. I took Metamagic Initiate solely for Subtle Spell, using it to shut down the BBEG's 1st round casting of Time Stop. Did I use my level 9 spell slot for counterpell? Yes. Was that fulfilling on its own? No. Was the DM's expression, after months of wasted actions, worth it? YES.

[@antihero615]

-“I hate blue decks.” -Immediately recalls the story of his sorcerer saving everyone with a well-timed counterspell, displaying the value of blue decks 😂

[@Sirfinchyyy]

There are about 20 different times Sebastian got stopped in his tracks by counterspell and seemed really depressed when his CS reaction got CSd.

[@topkapi9351]

Blue is the most fair color in magic - it keeps the other colors from cheating.

[@christopherzapata4970]

I immediately revealed my last blue control deck. It was years ago, and I combo'd Arcane Laboratory with Ertai, Wizard Adept (and two heartstones). My opponent was limited to one spell a turn, which got countered every turn, while I built up mana to cast Stroke of Genius and made them deck out. The deck was slow but really fun.

[@TurtleBazooka]

​@@topkapi9351, blue as a color does a massive amount of its own cheating. You are thinking of white lmao

[@luc1829]

So i know this would be a *ton* more work. but as far as Spell Duels, I wish there were more spells that just countered each other. Like how Darkness counters Light, but Daylight counters Darkness and Shield counters Magic Missile. So I think it would be so cool if there were more spells like that so you would really be dueling with spells rather than just casting counter spell. and maybe Counter Spell would be a Class Feature where if you had the countering spell prepared you could cast it as a reaction or something. Haven't thought a lot about it but its a really cool image in my head.

[@littleoldmanboy]

I love how people always preface these comments with “i know it would be a lot of work”, as if we aren’t talking about a billion dollar company who has had the last 10 years to create this. Demand better for your money folks

[@luc1829]

@@littleoldmanboy you're not wrong lol

[@BLynn]

Colby's Valor Bard video #180 is to show the problem with the Conjure Minor Elementals spell.

[@adriel8498]

Treant monk also did a video about that

[@Mass0404]

@@adriel8498Fun tidbit: Colby saw the Patron early release of Chris’ video and said he was making a build based on this exact concept, so Chris offered to delay the public premiere, and subsequently did release the video at the same time as Colby’s. That way, people would be less likely to skip Colby’s as they hadn’t seen Chris’ a week prior. It was a bro move for sure.

[@w4iph]

Those two are so great. True bromance.

[@ogrokun]

IMHO the problem is not Conjure Minor Elementals, but the Bard being able to use 3 shots of Eldritch Blast as a single attack. If the Valor bard feature would be limited to bard cantrips only, that would greatly decrease the damage output.

[@johannesroeder274]

@@ogrokun I think, it is still a problem even with few attacks, when upcasted. Its just to much dmg added to every attack and a Valor Bard, that is build for it, would still make 4 attacks. Power Word Kill does max 100 dmg or around 78 dmg once. With 4 attacks and 1 missing you can deal around 162 dmg every round.

[@benjaminmalisheski6494]

Rule as written the simulacrum loop is not fixed. Simulacrums can still cast wish to emulate the effects of the simulacrum spell - which is technically not casting simulacrum. This is a bad faith reading and most DMs would probably shut it down but I thought I should mention it

[@k1llwizzy]

Sims dont have equipment, so you need a spellbook for every copy for it to function as a wizard or an instrument for every bard, this doesn't affect Genie warlocks or sorcerers as badly. Sims cant regain spellslots, meaning if they request another copy of you by wishing they can never cast another wish (fixing at least the loophole that allowed you to cast the resistance wish for every element) RAW the Sim copies the target and cant regain spellslots, there is no mention that if the target has an exhausted 9th level spellslot the copy somehow regains that spellslot, I would rule that Similacrums don't actually have any 9th level spellslots available unless you have 2 people that can cast it and they can copy eachother.

[@stefanavic6630]

"Being countered by Blue in MTG is not fun." On the other hand being thrashed by a Green creature that's been pumped +10 +10 is an entirely pleasant experience. Stay strong my Blue siblings.

[@KnicKnac]

I prefer chaos. So red is my choice

[@laserkirby9373]

Bro, just steal it if you're blue. That 10/10 is now yours.

[@lukebrennan5125]

Yes but you have to have the creature out (no summoning sickness), then pump it up and hopefully you added trample because your opponent can just block it with a 1/1. There are a lot of steps that can be taken to "counter" a big creature, whereas a counterspell can be done at any time and played on almost any spell. It's a one step process/resource, attacking with a big creature requires multiple steps.

[@Klaital1]

Ah that made me remember the good old days of playing turbo stasis, my favorite mtg deck of all time.

[@silent9077]

@@lukebrennan5125 So, what you're say is that we should just counter the green creature?

[@Shaderox]

*Looks at Spirit Shroud that's the exact same thing as new Conjure Minor Elementals but half the damage and a 4th the scaling yeah... i think something somewhere got mixed up

[@Baily16]

I think Hunger of Hadar also deserves a spot here. Actual scaling, blinded inside the area while people on the outside can see in (if they have darkvision). However, he 2014 was a bit ambiguous in its wording, so maybe some tables were already running it this was, in regards to to the darkness thing.

[@GreeneLighte]

Conjure Minor Elementals was very obviously supposed to be "1 d8 for every 2 levels of upcast" and somebody just accidentally switched the numbers around to "2 d8 for every 1 level of upcast".

[@dakota_raine]

*cue the rules lawyers to argue that you can't prove intent without evidence* 👍 😂

[@fredericgenest]

An errata could be to apply the damage once per turn only.

[@malmasterson3890]

​@fredericgenest Honestly just removing the upcast entirely would be enough to keep it strong, but nor unfathomably stupid.

[@aidandunne5978]

I really think they just didn't really think it was that bad. 1d8 for every two levels would just be spirit shroud except cast 1 level higher, it would serve no purpose. It'll get errata'd real quick to 1d8 every 2 levels, but still start as a 2d8 4th level spell

[@agilemind6241]

They should just change all these spells to X damage once per turn because they all can get so broken when combined with multiple attack options.

[@matthewhelmers1426]

Valor bard with two levels of warlock for EB, 9th level slot for Foresight and 8th level upcast CME. Use an elf with Elven Accuracy for more shenanigans! I loved that both Chris and Colby said "here's the build, last time I'm using this spell".

[@FarothFuin]

Or just keep wizard and cast 8th lv scorching ray, is 10 attacks with 2d6 each so 10 attacks deliver 12d8 each, 120d8 for a max in total of 1080 damage

[@mappybc6097]

That's when you realise the lich can just use globe of invul and make you waste your only 8th level spell. Or that the ancient green dragon has both an 80ft fly speed and a 90ft cone of poison that deals 77 dmg with a DC22 Con save for half. Good luck passing that DC 34 concentration check.

[@sjcaustenite]

The general philosophy seems to be "Nothing should be so good that you *have* to take it to feel effective." I think that explains a lot of the "nerfs" to spells, especially Spritual Weapon.

[@projekcja]

I thought it felt awkward, especially in parties with multiple clerics, that they all fight using those same weird spectral projections that struggle to keep up with a halflings walk speed. All clerics, to all deities, all conjure a funny floating thing with a cosmetic look of their choice, that has the very same limitations. I welcome it going from an obvious choice to being an option that only some choose to use.

[@RJWhitmore]

Ironically, Spiritual Weapon was the opposite of that. The damage was too low to be meaningful in the low duration combat of 5e - healing spells were more effective on average than Spiritual Weapon, and that is saying something. Now? Now its a very very bad spell. If I had to say what the general philosophy seems to be, it is 'We are fed up of people always using the same spells, so rather than make other spells more appealing we'll just nerf the ones people like - regardless of whether they are actually good or not'.

[@sjcaustenite]

@@RJWhitmore That doesn't match my experience of Spiritual Weapon at all. Literally every cleric in every 5e campaign I have run -- about 10 PCs now -- has taken it. And enemy clerics almost always have it. So, experiences differ!

[@aqz7603]

@@sjcaustenite No, thats not what hes saying. He acknowledges that spiritual weapon is extremely common (it is) but that doesn't make it actually overpowered or anything. It barely adds any damage but the reason its used a lot is likely due to its low level and because of how simple it is. It was probably nerfed not because its overpowered or auto-include but because its kinda lame and overused.

[@sjcaustenite]

@@aqz7603 But the original responder is claiming people are actively taking a *bad spell* in droves. I am maintaining that people were taking the spell in droves because the spell is good! That's the difference.

[@charlescrocco7896]

If my players like the changes, we’ll keep them. If they don’t, we’ll homebrew around them.

[@krimlon]

Something I saw brought up that might lessen the nerfing of counterspell. Is the wording that the caster does not lose a spell slot. It appears that monsters and villains no longer have spell slots, but have uses per day of spells. So if they cast a spell and it is countered they still lose their use, but if they counter a PCs spell then that pc does not lose the slot.

[@BigCowProductions]

Oooh nice

[@Eirath]

As per RAW yes, but that might not be RAI. We'll see when the MM is released.

[@StriderZessei]

Shout out to my personal favorite: Mirror Image! Now, you only roll for the images if you are getting hit, instead of them possibly getting destroyed by something that would never have hit you.

[@arthurhsu7631]

Grasping Vine also got a huge buff! Now does damage and grapples the target as the attack hits.

[@whirlingnerdish2734]

Nerd Immersion brought up something interesting: a lot of newer monsters don’t have spell slots. So counterspelling their spells would still burn a usage since it’s not a spell slot. So it’s still effective against monsters, but kinder to players, which I think is a decent change.

[@Marb315]

I'm generally in favor of the new version of counterspell but I really wish that the abjuration wizard got some sort of improvement to counterspelling like they used to instead of just giving it as a free preparation (like disadvantage on the save or even just like a d4 penalty, just something), it was really evocative to have a wizard that was the best at shutting down other spellcasters

[@khw1425]

I kinda liked the insanity of the old conjure animals spell. I get why they got rid of it, but there was something tactically unique about putting multiple bodies on the field, or using animals with special abilities tactically...IDK kind of wish they had kept an option where you put a few bodies on the board and chose from a restricted list of animals and then have some alternate lists in the DMG for different climates.

[@Toaster_Weevil]

I think what could have been cool is rather than it actually summoning bodies to the field, it is a single-round AOE spell that has several variations based on what you summon. For example, a one-turn AOE spectral elk stampede that does damage and can knock prone. Kinda like a Druid equivalent to fireball that has unique effects based on which variant you cast.

[@charlesvanzee4879]

I truly loathed this spell, both as a player and as a DM. I don't mind putting bodies on the field, but being able to create 8 poisonous snakes was so obnoxious because it so imbalanced the turn order. You'd have one player who effectively got to make 9 moves per turn. So everyone else is playing dnd, and one dude is playing warhammer against the DM. And their turn would take freaking forever. Same goes for Animate Objects. One guy I played with would bring a bag full of hammers around with him so he could animate all 10, and it would slow down combat so much.

[@Drago5185]

Need immersion made a video about counter spell and a notable thing about it now is that it doesn’t use up the spell slot but it should still take a use of the x/day spells that monsters typically have now. Since they don’t have spell slots.

[@leodouskyron5671]

Spelling note. The channel is “Nerd Immersion. ”

[@adriel8498]

A warlock having his mistic arcanum counterspelled are going to lose the use then, but also should be able to cast more than one spell per turn, because doesn't expend spellslots doing it.

[@queenannsrevenge100]

That’s the part I hate the most - all they need to do is cast it again, and you can’t counter it because you blew your slot. It costs you more than it costs your opponent.

[@jcelam2567]

The leaked Green Dragon also doesn't have a Con Proficiency. So i'm guessing that there will be less ways to boost your Constitution and defiantly less monsters with Constitution Proficiency.

[@Ryanubet35]

​@queenannsrevenge100 that's the thing the monster Stat blocks we have seen don't have spell slots. Counterspell says if a spell slot was used it's not wasted. Meaning a x#/day, x recharge is wasted. It's more player friendly for if a baddie counterspells you. But it's always a con save now not and instant no. On the bright side humanoid casters aren't known for great con so there is that.

[@alanmaxwell9105]

I can’t wait to grab Witch Bolt with Magic Initiate Wizard for a Tempest Cleric.

[@bigdreads14]

That witch bolt change would do wonders for Storm Sorcerers

[@thomasquesada7248]

Witch bolt having d12 dice was always a little niche for storm sorcerer but now it’s better and width bolt might be a bit op

[@freidphod]

The fact that Conjure Animals does 0 damage on a successful dex save is abysmal. Couple that with the fact to move the blob your character needs to move, opening them up to AoO is just icing on the cake. This wasn’t a nerf it was an execution.

[@freidphod]

Also to force the Dex Save you need to be able to see the creature you wish to make the save. So if you’re blinded, do not have line of sight, dealing with an invisible creature etc. you cannot force the save to potentially deal damage. Unless the wording on the spell changed or DnD 2024 redefines spectral and intangible, Conjure Animals should not occupy a spot. The spirits summoned are stated to be intangible and spectral. Spells that have the word intangible include Healing Spirit and Project Image, both of which allow things to pass through them. For spectral you only need to look at the spell Guardian of Faith which explicitly states the guardian occupies the space it appears in.

[@DnDDeepDive]

I *love* the Conjure Animals change! But also, I'm really sad that the playtest version didn't make it in :(. It used to be an attack roll when a character entered the area, and now it's a save that, somewhat damningly, doesn't do half on a save. Boo. Give me either attack roll or half damage please! Also: I'm going to change my icon to a topless version of myself and post early so I can fit in with the bots. Wait, why do you guys only have 1!? I always get, like, 4, the second the video drops.

[@michaelmuirhead910]

The bots can’t resist ya!

[@davidfarnham5623]

The bots love you Colby

[@Bossk84]

Yeah, as a Druid lover getting stuck with a spell that doesn’t do half damage on a save is really salt in the wound of losing all my little critter buddies.

[@AlexJaneway]

Old Sleep, upcast could be a beast, saved the day a lot for quite a while. New version isn't going to be nearly as good until you get Hypnotic pattern.

[@sjcaustenite]

Yeah, Conjure Minor Elemental feels *very* much like a typo. First editions of books are often riddled with typos, so, I wouldn't be surprised if it's as simple as that.

[@malmasterson3890]

Errata incoming most likely if any spell is going to get one.

[@draco949]

Its not a typo. It was like that during the playtest.

[@sjcaustenite]

@@draco949 But it may have been intended to be changed after the play test and missed.

[@shalidor8102]

While strong, I don't believe CME deserves a nerf. It requires your caster to be at almost melee range (15 feet) with the enemy, requires concentration, AND it requires attack rolls. There's a lot of hype around CME, but we haven't seen the Monster Manual. DPR has been increased all around, so it makes sense that monsters are beefier.

[@malmasterson3890]

@@shalidor8102 I agree that many are definitely giving it more credit than they should, as the old Conjure Minor Elementals was honestly broken af on it's own & just wasn't exploited. The problem with this though that even optimizer's have pointed out is that it's not that hard to get an attack off on the same turn, and the second you start upcasting this spell it gets unfathomably absurd in numbers. It 100% needs an errata or homebrew fix.

[@crowaust]

I think that Area of effect nerf on sleep basically made it a single target spell unless your targets are making out. 5ft is not even enough to hit the Guards standing on either side of a door, it would need to be at least 8 to 10ft for that (assuming a fairly standard 3 to 4ft door)

[@phluffi9008]

I do agree that Sleep is now viable at higher levels, but the smaller AoE, no benefit for upcasting, and the fact that its two saving throws AND is now concentration makes it worse I think

[@mikev8551]

Personally I feel like the Conjure "XYZ" spells were a bit of an over correction, yes the 2014 versions were broken but now they just feel weird and not at all like a summon/conjuration to me. Just feels like they could have found something that didn't turn them into these strange field effects but I guess I should just be happy they didn't remove them entirely after implementing the Summon spells to replace them.

[@FentonHardyFan]

Oh my gosh, my ranger took one of the summon spells from Tasha’s, went through all the trouble and expense of getting the right components to cast it, and, well, I found it both unfun and un-useful. I later took Conjure Animals, and it’s fun and creative, and makes me feel like I can do something the rest of the party can’t do and actually seemed to contribute to the party doing well in combat. 😅 I find the new version utterly unappealing. (And they compared it to some of the most frustrating spells I’ve ever tried and regretted taking.) To my knowledge the illusion spells still allow creative freedom, but surely someone making up an illusion and describing what it does is also potentially messy and time consuming? A party should be made of individuals who play together and allow various types of abilities, try to not dominate the whole session, but also are patient when one of the characters needs a minute to do something. My ranger might summon 8 constrictor snakes, the rogue might have to regularly consult his literal spreadsheet of his real and fake names which keeps track of which characters know which of his fake names, the wizard sneaks off to cast Planar Binding, etc.

[@mikev8551]

@@FentonHardyFan I agree, I feel like the could have at least set specific summon options to limit the shenanigans if needed. Maybe switch it to an option of 1, 2 or 4 and give them star blocks like the newer "replacement" summons. Especially since I don't believe they have an animal or elemental one (although I may be forgetting it)

[@westonepstein]

I just re-watched Treantmonk's old video on the spell changes playtest and this was the way Conjure Minor Elementals was in the playtest. Treatmonk gave the change 10 out of 10. He's changed his mind since.

[@elementzero3379]

It's important to understand his reasoning for giving 10/10 ratings, which he explained during the Playtest process. He chose to give 10/10 to any feature for which he liked the change in design direction. He felt that was necessary to get the changes over the hump of 70% approval. He would then provide detailed feedback such as, "This feature is overtuned, but I love the design," in his comments. He figured the rough edges would be smoothed over multiple iterations and was mostly correct. I have no memory of his specific comments for CME, but I do recall his excitement for the new conjuration/summoning spell paradigm.

[@RJWhitmore]

@@elementzero3379 This was my greatest source of frustration with the playtest - the ratings were not helpful because they were only bidirectional with two 'distances'. It is like asking where the airport is and getting 'forward far'.

[@elementzero3379]

@@RJWhitmore Yeah, their surveys aren't good. I'm glad they made the effort to read and consider the written feedback. I don't think the scoring alone is particularly useful, though they seem to put a lot of stock into it.

[@theunikronus7204]

I think that counterspell is still going to be very good in tier 2 of play, levels 5 - 10, but then after that, it will have a steep fall off once players routinely get into combat with monsters that have legendary resistances and high con saving throws. Ultimately, I think it is fine, I've never been a huge fan of spells like counterspell that come online relatively early in a campaign and maintain the same level of power at all levels of play. Sure, you still have to upcast it to deal with more powerful spells garunteed, but I do think there should be some level of drop off in the power of a 3rd level spell later into the game.

[@lepotat3700]

19:36 "its a joke monty 😐😐" LMAO

[@cherrymaxguns]

Same!

[@altair6491]

Treantmonk Temple and D4 Deep Dive both made Valor Bard videos showing how ridiculous Conjure Minor Elementals can be and both recommended the Spirit Shroud scaling of 1d8 for every two levels above 4th

[@brettthomas2652]

I don't really like the "conjure blank" spell changes. They're fine spells, but I feel like the flavor was an afterthought. A danger cloud just doesn't *feel* like a pack of wolves, y'know? The name no longer fits.

[@wwade7226]

The thing I absolutely hate about the Conjure Animals nerf, to your point, is the complete removal of bodies on the field and utility. It seems like they pushed everything towards damage dealing without regard for the RP/Utility. As a Druid fan, I enjoyed seeing what monsters were there and which ones to use for a given situation. RIP Shepherd Druid. Now, it's just another damage spell. And, Spiritual Weapon is now a lost cause. Too many other concentration spells to compete.

[@LucilleWinged]

Same as a lore bard, I love using it even for flavor, just to cuddle my doggos. It’s not the same spell at all 🥲

[@jorgehuertas3995]

13:00 the 1000 yard stare Monty has is cracking me up

[@Sirfinchyyy]

A bit of repressed memory coming back to the surface right there😂.

[@EugeeFGII]

Since 2014 I've been running a 5E campaign in some capacity. While I would not say Spiritual Weapon & Guardian Spirits are *broken*, I would say that combo is so much better than anything else a cleric can do with their spell slots that it's what the cleric does 95% of the time.

[@fatgumthegoat]

you guys and sir treantmonk are how I'm learning everything about the new books

[@ShadowFred386]

A big argument I use for Forcecage, is compared to wall of force disintegrate doesn’t get rid of it, which can make it a really powerful tool to lock one enemy out of an encounter even if a spellcaster enemy has disintegrate

[@Orcawsom]

im sorry but i cannot agree with the new conjures being better designed. as a summoner player i want to play a summoner who summons creatures to their side and gets to use their unique abilities to my own advantage. this completely ruins the class fantasy. i like the tasha's summons but these conjure reworks just are NOT is. and don't even get me started on the Illusionist Wizard.

[@vancomycinb1193]

agreed. Not summoning actual creatures is stupid.

[@Orcawsom]

@@vancomycinb1193 between this and conjuration wizard not even being in i feel so shafted as a summon enjoyer

[@theepicpotato4997]

I wonder why, instead of making it an AOE just for damage, they didn’t just make the casting time one minute. This fixes a lot of issues. One, being cast in the middle of combat causes the numbers to fluctuate, meaning the encounter won’t be well balanced. The caster would have to prepare the animals or whatever beforehand, also giving the DM more time to prepare for that and balance the fight. Meanwhile, this has little to no effect on out of combat uses, which was gutted in 2024. Now it’s impossible to use this to summon a horse or even bear to ride either into battle or to travel. In exchange for versatility, they made it a super broken combat spell, especially in combats with lots of enemies in close range to each other. It’s essentially a less powerful fireball that you can use every turn for one spell slot. Call lightning is useless now.

[@shimontrabelsi3906]

Nah but the normie players can't handle it. And the poor DM's can't say no. So you get baby first summner. Because some people used pixies or 8 wolf's now they had to make it a generic evocation spell. Imo they should have gave a fixed list with a bunch of creatures, all good at one thing or two. One tank,one dose dmg, one heal, one can fly, one can swim,one dose illusion etc... Maybe make it a template and let players costumize how it looks. It's a better middle ground.

[@RichiePootle]

11:19 How about instead of Counterspell forcing a Con save, you have to succeed on an Arcana check to identify the spell being cast and remember the correct counter gesture (check DC would be the target caster’s spell DC)

[@talos7314]

This makes actually a lot of sense and I might steal this idea

[@patcheskipp]

I think the new counter spell is a great example of the bias against melee characters that causes the melee/spellcaster divide. You put a flying enemy in front of a barbarian who can't hit it and no one cares that they now need to spend their turns not attacking and trying to figure out how to get to the enemy. Heaven forbid we counter spell a spell casting PC though. I think part of that spell is for DM use to help make magic users not be so much stronger than melee. I like that now players don't lose the spell slot so it ends up just being a way to delay a magic user instead of totally shutting them down.

[@murphieslaw6932]

I partially agree. I just want to mention how said melee specialist CAN still attack the flying target - it just won´t be as effective as using their preferred melee attack, pbviously. They can use a ranged attack, throwing javelins etc. Still cancelling a lot of damage, though, sure. Unless they are the new world tree barbarians, just pulling the cowardly flier down. The new elemental monks can do the same with their potential ranged grapple. Still think that flying should be used with caution from the DM´s side, as it can severely nerf a lot of melee builds.

[@Oreochan42]

The main difference is that if you put a flying enemy in front of a melee only person you only shut them down if they dont have a range weapon. They can change to a range attack and roll their attack no problem. You counter spell a mage thats their attack/action for the turn, not fun to be told you dont get a turn.

[@patcheskipp]

@@Oreochan42 might be the first time the party is fighting a flying weapon and the barbarian doesn't have ranged weapons. Or they have their cool magic sword and now they can only throw a javelin once that round. It's not fun but when you can do so much the only thing not magic users have is their consistency. I agree it's not fun to lose your actions but it's also not fun being a fighter who has low wisdom going up against frightful presence. I can't move in and all my attacks are at disadvantage because odds are I can't save against an adult dragons DC. Again both suck. I think counter spell was put into the game to force magic users to be smart about how they play. Don't throw all your strong stuff at the enemy right away and let them wear down their own spell slots. I'd say the main difference being that again people tend not to care if you have things that shut down a non magic user.

[@patcheskipp]

@@Oreochan42 also the shield spell can shut down a melee turn. And it effects all units try to hit AC. Counter spell can even be worked around. Use your big spell after it's already used it's reaction, or counter spell back. Also depending on the spell you cast the enemy might have to roll to counter spell. No one cares when you play a great weapon Master fighter and now I can't use my build. Just use a throw weapon? We'll just use a cantrip. If you're a sorcerer you could subtle spell. There is the possibility to cast from darkness so they can see you use the spell.

[@Oreochan42]

@patcheskipp shield doesnt stop you from rolling crits, it may be harder to hit, but counter spell is a straight no. If you go right after the bbeg you either have to hold your action and hope someone can eat the reaction or risk your action just being shut down.

[@Shifterfire]

I'm really disappointed with the "new" conjure animals. It's just a dime a dozen damage spell now. Has nothing to with summoning, and has no utility. One of the most epic spell has been replaced by some lame generic cloud of "insert object here"...

[@MrPatrizzo]

The hypnotist for me would be a bard for sure, singing lullabies and sprinkling sand in the eyes of his foes. 🥰

[@richardhealy]

Especially since Enchanter Wizard isn't a thing anymore.

[@murphieslaw6932]

@@richardhealy You can still use the old rules, converting them to the new version. Also, pretty sure the 'lost' subclasses will return in the DM´s guide or new peripherals, sooner rather than later. Heck, you can even use the old version of updates subclasses if you like. Is someone gonna hunt you down like an animal for it ? Likely not...

[@arcanerecovery2567]

I know the following spell wasn't in this video and it may not be the most powerful but it has gained in power and it is incredibly FUN! and that's Chromatic Orb. Under the 2024 rules when you cast it now it has a chance to 'bounce' and hit another target, if any 2 of the d8s from the damage roll match then it can 'bounce' to another target, it can potentially 'bounce' a number of times equal to the spell slot used to cast it (it can be upcast). Each time requires another attack roll and another damage roll.

[@jiiaga5017]

If you were *sleeping" on sleep before, that was on you not on the spell. Old sleep was "Power word: Sleep" effectively. Upcasting (sleep also got +2d8 dmg scaling rather than single dice like most damage spells) combined with smart positioning to hit a single target let you end encounters, especially against lower hit point enemies like spellcasters, even at higher levels. How many enemy spellcasters "survive" 9D8 of a 3rd level sleep spell?

[@seymourfields3613]

@@jiiaga5017 enemy spellcasters with the old counterspell. I do like the old Sleep spell better. Honestly.. I would play under the 2014 rules overall versus the 2024 rules. Feats are better, and not much else is super awesome. There are other cool things, yes, but there are a lot of problems.

[@ethandowler4669]

Divine Favor is one of those spells that I always WANTED to use b/c of the aesthetic/fantasy, but I could never rationally use it over Bless. Now you can do both! on separate turns, of course ; P

[@pogodonuts]

I'm a little sad about Conjure Animals. As an experienced DM, when I used it as a player I was used to running big groups of enemies and usually took less time with it than even the fighter and barbarian in the party. I also enjoyed using it for utility to use fun animal abilities relevant to the situation. However I have also seen other players use it and take half an hour taking their turn. So in the end, I'm glad it was changed.

[@michaelmuirhead910]

I agree. An experienced player using CA was prepared with known forms and speedy rolls and animal movements. (the online dice roller helps tons) DM experience helps a lot, but also knowing when not to use it. I’ve had other players use it and completely take other players out of an encounter. It’s either excessively long turns, or blocking off others from the combat with too many bodies in a combat area. Sometimes both. I’m ok with this change tbh.

[@christianreinhardt784]

Love most of the buffs. Hate conjure animals and conjure woodland beings. One of the things I loved about druids so much was their adaptibility and those summoning spells were big part of it. I had so much fun looking for perfect summon or wildshape that could change the battle or just be cool. I remember one time we charged bandit camp - me as a giant elk with our barbarian riding me into battle and two of our party members riding my summoned bears. Or the other time where we were chasing enemies running away on horses. I summoned direwolfs and we chase them. Or that other time when I summoned bunch of spiders to climb the walls of castle and attack guards while I opened gate for the rest of my group.... so many cool ways and without summons they would never happened. We cant change into flying T-Rexes? Dont care never did that. But what I did was summon dryads to charm two guards so we could sneak pass them. I loved the creativity of these summons and with those changes thats gone. I can just use moonbeam or any other spell that does the same. It lost the unique feel. Yes you could abuse it by summoning 30 wolfs or some crazy shit like that but thats something you and your DM should talk about before you start summoning. Summoning and wildshaping was my fantasy and reason why I played druid and I loved it so much. So I guess I am staying with 5e so I can keep playing that.

[@sarahlyn1767]

The debuff on conjure animals doesn't work for me. We just had a party of level seven and my druid was able to conjure flying snakes that enabled our fighter to fly off a 200 foot sea stack and into Aboleth infested waters to recover the object of our goal. Clogging up the game board during combat can be solved via house rules.

[@JonathanDGoff]

Absolutely this. How many times has it been useful to conjure a couple giant eagles while the druid flies themselves? Or some sharks as temporary underwater mounts? House rules can handle the legitimate concern of clogging up combat.

[@tjstyles1171]

I really enjoyed your takes on the spell buffs and nerfs. For Conjure Minor Elementals, I really hope the change they make is "once per turn". We already have plenty of versions of the multi-attack buff spells, it would be nice to see one that gives a big buff to a single attack. Add in that the spell is on the Druid and Wizards spell lists who don't have access to Extra Attack, but have access to Shillelagh or True Strike, as well as it working with short range spells, I think a once per turn limit (while leaving the damage either as is or having a slight nerf) would be ideal. I don't think a spell on the Druid and Wizard spell list should perform significantly better when it is poached by a Bard or half-caster.

[@kuroshinigami9143]

to be fair "dont think a spell on druid and wizard list should perform significantly better when it is poached by a bard" applies to a few wizard spells. the biggest one that comes to mind is a valor or swords bard yoinking Tenser's Transformation.

[@matthewschwoebel8247]

Counterspell using Arcana skill check instead of Constitution saving throw would be better.

[@northernsun6003]

Arcana skill check isn’t ideal because intelligence based isn’t good for Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, etc. Opposed spell attack rolls would be a similar check but correct for proficiency and proper ability modifier. The only concern is abilities that modify spell attack rolls and it’s kind of not really an attack.

[@someoneelse4939]

​​​​@@northernsun6003Now we have a situation where Eldritch Knights deal with Counterspell better than pure Wizards and that makes no sense. Also, bards could already have Expertise in Arcana, so they had absolutely no problem with the old version of counterspell...but they do now. As for clerics, this change didn't fix the "problem" at all.

[@IceCarRider]

Honestly I kinda wish the new counter spell used an Intelligence saving throw instead. Int saves are so rare, so I guess I just kinda wish it would be used more.

[@northernsun6003]

@@someoneelse4939 ?? Eldritch knight should have a lower spell attack modifier than other casters by virtue of a lower spell ability modifier. Unless there is some new bonus to spell attack rolls I’ve never heard of? I guess if you tried arcana with expertise it would maintain bard’s advantage on counterspelling similarly to jack of all trades does in 5.14e, but wizards can still get it with skill expert which is kind of scary. Potentially a +6 relative bonus to counterspelling is extremely swingy. Edit: oh, are you talking about Eldritch knight AC? I said opposed spell attack rolls, not actually attacking AC. Something like “you both make spell attack rolls. If your roll exceeds your target’s roll, their spell is counter spelled”

[@user-mu8ok5xf8d]

@@northernsun6003then again it would mean that wizards would be the best at it and that makes sense. Maybe make it an arcana check but use your spell casting modifier

[@brucecurtis9368]

I think the new Sleep spell will work well with weapon mastery Push and grapple Drag to pack more mobs in that small area. A druid with Thorn Whip could work too.

[@seizurelater]

Sleep going from a guaranteed sure thing if they were below an HP value to a wisdom save is a massive nerf, regardless of any other changes.

[@nicholasmercer6397]

I dissagree, It's hardly a sure thing when you're rolling dice and finding out what HP you have to work with, and also gambling how much health you think your target has. Where as now it's (obviously still not a sure thing) but it's viable throughout majority of the game, and works properly as a lvl 1 spell.

[@Shimontr]

making some spells worst is a bad idea. now you'll get a split of where people will take new stuff and old stuff,and some DM will argue with players about what versions of spell they use.

[@adriel8498]

What I don't like about the new conjure spells is that are not conjuring anything!!. Even flaming sphere feels more like a summon than the new version of those spells...

[@DungeonDudes]

The Tasha's summon spells are in the PHB for those who want to summon actual creatures.

[@malmasterson3890]

Flavorfully you can absolutely treat it as summons. The only problem I see with it is that Minor Elementals was a colossal fuck up on the upcast and Shepherd Druid is now pretty meh. Otherwise it's overall better for the health of the game.

[@Navifaerie64]

I used to do a spell combo I called the "Celestial Meat Grinder." Hide behind a door, have Person A with Spirit Guardians up next to the door and then Person B with Moonbeam on the doorway. For funsies, you can have Person C with something else to cover the doorway. Sometimes it was Darkness, sometimes it was Word of Radiance/Sword Burst when enemies got in...any way you did it, it was fun times.

[@Top_Knite]

I think the problem with spiritual weapon is that in 2014 PHB there was no reason to NOT take the spell because its a bonus action and free damage. But now in the 2024 version there is no reason to take it and it feels like at that point they should've reworked the spell instead of just slapping a "concentration" on it. Maybe of they gave it to all clerics by default and let you cast it without a spell slot a certain amount of times per day? That way at least you have a reason to use it if you want to save your spell slots for a long adventure day

[@RJWhitmore]

Spiritual Weapon was a bad spell; the reason to not take it was the resource cost. On average it was more effective resource wise to just cast a healing spell after combat if not having Spiritual Weapon let a monster get another turn (which was very rare). Simply put, the damage was too low to be meaningful in the short combat duration of 5e. Now, its just laughable.

[@broomemike1]

​@@RJWhitmoreI hear you. But it's not all about damage balance. The nerf to this spell was explained months ago during the playtest. It's about how much time at the TABLE during a turn this spell takes up. Moving around the spiritual weapon, at tables which paid attention to its limited movement speed, really bogged a lot of tables down. When you combine it with another high maintenance cleric spell, you could end up with the cleric needing twice as long for their turn as anyone else.

[@Top_Knite]

@@RJWhitmore Spiritual weapon is famous for having almost no opportunity or resource cost, only costing a bonus action and a lvl 2 spell slot. And if you think it's weak because your combats are lasting 1-2 turns that's more of a table situation than the spells fault. By that logic any spell that isn't instantaneous is bad. Also in case it needs to be said I don't think spiritual weapon is like a crazy it needs to be cast every combat kind of spell, just that there is almost no reason to not take it. Kinda like agonizing blast for warlock or fireball for wizard

[@Briar_Belle]

I forget the specifics of Arcane tricker changes, but sleep seems like a lot more fun for them. If they still have the disadvantage while hidden thing, that's a fun and juicy control option that really fits for both sneaking into somewhere as well as in combat, ending it with an easy big hit.

[@AvangionQ]

Sleep reminds me of the 4E version where you target their WILL defense. On a hit, they're slowed (save ends) and on the first failed save, they're rendered unconscious. On a miss, the target is slowed (save ends), but with no additional penalty for failing the saving throw. Slowed in 4E reduces a creature's speed to 2 or 10ft per turn.

[@Bliss467]

Druids are undeniably in their worst state ever. Being halfway between the two extremes of complicated and eating to have the monster manual or never needing to have the monster manual and uncomplicated satisfies nobody. I was always fine with Druid being the difficult class, and now that option half-exists in the game. I would much rather they just completely rework the class than half-ass it like this.

[@kodiakjak1]

The way I started running counter spell is as a reaction any full caster can do. You either cast the same spell or one that makes sense and then have a spell contest with the caster. The higher spell slot and better spell gets a bonus. If you win by +5 the original caster gets some damage. So if a monster casts a 4th level fireball and you use cone of cold to counter it, you would get a +2 (higher spell slot and a "good counter"). If you win by 5 or more in your spellcasting contest the opponent would take half the cone of cold damage. Cone of colds other effects are ignored. For spells that don't do damage, I usually do 1d8 psychic per spell slot of feedback.

[@zeddwulfen7737]

Spiritual weapon being concentration makes logical sense in a way as it's linked to you, it will just take a bit of strategy to use right and you might have to stay partially out of the way. What has always bugged me about it is its move distance during your turn. I think it should be 30 feet at the very least or equal to your own move distance. Great vid as always I was shown your channel a while back to help me adapt into a class I'd never played before and I've been kinda binge watching and learning all I can lol.

[@dabluflcn]

I would agree if upcasting would also add a little movement. Right now spiritual weapon is bottom tier once you get access to Spirit Guardians, with the exception of war domain.

[@moose6869]

The way I view it is that while moving, you are mostly "focused/concentrating" on moving. With having enough focus left over to keep a/the conc. spell active. Now, each turn in combat represents roughly 6 seconds, with that time representing roughly the time it takes to move, take an action, and take a bonus action. Each of these things representing a nebulous set of time less than 6 seconds. So to me it makes sense that the weapon can only move a set portion of the distance the actual character can move. Cause though the character can move while taking a bonus action or action. One has to account for the player also still having enough time to take an action or bonus action respectively in succession, in that same set time frame. If that makes sense. Basically, the weapon doesn't have > 6 seconds = move + action + bonus action It has 6 seconds - playerMove - action - bonusAction - weaponMove = weaponMoveTime amount of time to be moving before the 6 seconds resets to the next turn. 🤔

[@Blasthole]

My dm altered counter spell. In our campaign you cast it and focus on the spellcaster as a bonus action, then concentrate on it, and on subsequent turns you can use a reaction to counter a spell, and it triggers a contested roll with your spell casting skill vs theirs, with yours being increased by up casting. You keep the concentration for a minute and can counter each round for free after you use the slot to cast the initial spell. It made it feel like an actual mage duel where both casters can actually lock horns and battle it out. Dispel magic has a similar effect too with a contested roll to remove magical effects

[@dsc3275]

I plan to push for our group to cherry pick the best of both worlds. Ignore nerfs, accept upgrades. This is like a software update that deletes the features you liked, adds a bunch of features you don't need, and has a huge learning curve for little return.

[@roguebarbarian9133]

I would say the new player’s handbook feels like 30% actual needed improvements, 60% lateral or unnecessary changes, and 10% changes that are actively detrimental to gameplay.

[@gaberielpendragon]

The biggest flaw of witch bolt was DM's metagaming that the target of witch bolt knew to run away from it without making an arcane check first. This flaw was fixed in BG3 and it's really good there.

[@nicholasharris4306]

Sleep is a nerf, not a buff. I can see your arguments however, being able to upcast it and take out a weakened enemy tank, or remove the mounts from the foes, etc. There were flexible options. and, out of combat, walk into a room of people, send all the civilians to sleep, due to the large radius. It was much more flexible.

[@joshuayoudontneedtoknow9559]

Agreed 100%

[@loki210]

Fair points but I also think we need to take into account how under-utilized it was from the playerbase because new players and most tables in general that aren't powergaming minded just simply didn't consider these kinds of scenarios and the fact that it functioned unlike any other spell in the game made it confusing and take too much time breaking into meta and stopping to read minutiae like the Dudes mention. It's not so much that people didn't take it because it was "bad" but moreso that it confused things too heavily, slowed the game down, and didn't function a way that was consistently understandable. Sure it may not be mathematically as powerful now, but I guarantee it will see more use because at the very least even new players will be able to parse how and when they will be able to utilize it, which I think is overall much more important for the general health of the game.

[@AvangionQ]

Sleep reminds me of the 4E version where you target their WILL defense. On a hit, they're slowed (save ends) and on the first failed save, they're rendered unconscious. On a miss, the target is slowed (save ends), but with no additional penalty for failing the saving throw. Slowed in 4E reduces a creature's speed to 2 or 10ft per turn.

[@Zaknyfein]

At the same that I criticise, I think there are a lot of great changes! Nerfing Counterspell has to be my favourite! Kelly, having to tell Monty "it's a joke" was memorable.

[@Zaknyfein]

How does it serve Jeremy Crawford to remove all (and YES I am using an absolute) those features that players love most? Making the math in other places more reliable, subtly removes variability and spike damage, the elements that create those situations that make player memories. Removing the enchantment and excitement from the game, when we have a superior alternative, 5e to fall be on, seems counter-productive/self defeating.

[@thomasquesada7248]

What the hell are you even talking about 5.5e is strictly better than 5e

[@TheJamieellis]

@@thomasquesada7248 Ranger lost all flavour to turn it into Druid/Rogue

[@thomasquesada7248]

@@TheJamieellis this is the stupidest thing I’ve read today

[@TheJamieellis]

@@thomasquesada7248 It is just Druid/Rogue though. They literally moved Ranger to the same group of classes as Bard/Rogue and gave them Druid spells to make up for their lack of exploring features in the class.

[@thomasquesada7248]

@@TheJamieellis you mean exploration ? The thing that’s done with one skill check ? Turns out the ranger has expertise in them

[@TheParanoidGiraffe]

9:20 A creature with importance in my campaign I am running that can do something like this is an Alhoon. The original/legacy Alhoon stat block didn't have that ability, but the updated one from MPMM does. It feels good to use this ability to counter player actions but not have them totally waste their resources. Here is the Reaction: Negate Spell (3/Day). The alhoon targets one creature it can see within 60 feet of it that is casting a spell. If the spell is 3rd level or lower, the spell fails, but any spell slots or charges are not wasted.

[@ticozayas6430]

Here's a hot take dm's might not like, how about we stop nerfing things... the conjure spell is fine as it is printed, anyone that is likely to cast the spell with very high spell slots most likely only has one attack per turn, can a build exploit it? yes, but why is that a bad thing? So i propose boosting other things to this level so there is more than one must have spell or ability, with more powerful options available ppl would be more inclined to use multiple powerful options instead of just using the same one over and over... just my two cents on ppl fearing power

[@H1Guard]

Yay, counter power creep with more power creep! That's the 5e spirit in a nutshell.

[@demonic_myst4503]

Agreed its not just a merchanical nerf tho with summons tashas spells are horificly bad for rp and baration A basic demon sommoning in old dnd had options thendemons had lore and personalitidd , a basic devil sommoning required binding it three seperate spells that ehen upcast grabt a minnion thats more than combat a spy an assassin a tool to use Now we have a stat block for all fiends thats either bites three times or thorws three fireballs its more like 4e again its videogaming it hell no actualy skyrims summons are more rp worthy its like a moble games level of dummons

[@skullkrusher-dx4kg]

Witch bolt plus sorcerous burst might be a pretty good early game lightning damage combo.

[@seymourfields3613]

I really don't like that counterspell became, "Spend a spell slot to maybe stop an enemy spell, while giving the enemy caster their spell slot back." That's really.. A double debuff. Counterspell may have been annoying, but it wasn't that overpowered. It had been, "spend a spell slot to stop an enemy spell of equal or lesser value. Maybe stop a higher level spell." which on a reaction can be bad for action economy, but the double debuff is a bit much.

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

My counter play was to step outside 60 ft, step out of line of sight, be invisible, or occasionally. Have a subtle spell, or bait the caster to use their reaction for something else like shield or an opportunity attack. It was kind of an interesting meta. Still works but maybe even better now that there is a save to be made.

[@dndelver]

It is more than likely that it doesn't recover a spell slot to monsters, since in the new stat blocks they don't seem to have spell slots, meaning they lose their resource, the party members don't

[@seymourfields3613]

@@dndelver I've read similar to that in different threads. I don't buy it. Every DM will either rule it can't be counter spelled, because it is an ability, not a spell. Or they will rule the ability is a spell, and the spell slot (or X use per day/rest/sleep) is not used when counterspelled. The number of DMs that will say the monster's resource is used up is probably the same number that will homebrew that countered spells still take an enemy mage's spell slot.

[@dndelver]

@@seymourfields3613 well then the problem is your DM's, not the rules.

[@seymourfields3613]

@@dndelver the DM isn't a problem because you don't like Wizard's rule. I've had bad DMs. Don't give them a break because you want to say all DMs are bad DMs, because Wizards screwed the pooch on 5.5e. Personally, at my table, I would house rule the old counterspell is the only counterspell. Because it's a bad spell. Again.. That's on WotC.

[@Tom_SDM]

Some homebrew ideas I think I’ll use for my games as we switch to 2024 rules: - Counterspell still auto-counters spells that use a spell slot 2 less than whatever slot is used for the counterspell e.g 3rd lvl CS counters a 1st lvl Witch Bolt, but forces a CON save on a 2nd lvl Misty Step etc. So upcasting still matters but the spell still isn’t punishing - Upcasting Sleep increases the radius, maybe +5ft per level, maybe per 2 levels - I really like this new Sleep, and I think it should be able to hit more creatures!

[@corvusnull5204]

"Upcasting Sleep increases the radius, maybe +5ft per level, maybe per 2 levels" With how the spell works this would make the spell less likely to stay in effect the more people it targets.

[@thomasquesada7248]

Mine is to add weapon mastery to spiritual weapon while giving it a proper move speed (or let it throw itself if the weapon can be thrown) And change true strike to a cantrip that lets you add both you weapon and spell mod to you hit and damage so it really is about accuracy and change the new true strike to something like arcane strike since it’s a new spell anyway

[@Bossk84]

I do get why the conjures got changed. But I do feel like a lot of the complaints about those spells sound suspiciously more like players not respecting the table or the DM than inherent issues with the spells themselves.

[@ryanholley406]

Here’s a spell many people are completely overlooking that has been buffed: CHROMATIC ORB. Before, you’d make a spell attack and deal 3d8 damage of damage your choice. +1d8 for each level upcast. Now, the spell was given Chaos Bolt’s secondary ability. If two dice have a matching roll, the Orb now jumps up to 30ft to a new target. The Orb jumps a number of times equal to the spell level. Chaos Bolt was okay with the ability because it only ever stayed at 2d8 and the d6s were the growing dice on upcast. Chromatic Orb adds a new d8 per upcast, which means you begin to increase the chance to roll a match more frequently. By 7th level, the Orb is guaranteed to jump as long as you land the spell attack as the damage roll is 9d8 (will always have 2+ matching faces). 7th level unlocks at 13th level which is right in the realm of where most campaigns will play through making it accessible for a one time use per day. Throw it on a Sorcerer with the new Innate Sorcery ability for guaranteed Advantage for each spell attack roll you make for the orb jumps. Get ready for 63d8 of damage spread across 7 targets in a single turn!

[@Masenken]

Kinda feel like counterspell should've just been moved to a higher spell slot, but otherwise worked the same. That way you know when the counters start going off, it's reservist a declaration of ear against each other

[@northernsun6003]

I could see counterspell being increased to 5th level. Or seeing it automatically fizzle against higher level spells with a provision that you automatically know the level of the spell you’re attacking. What a tremendous opportunity cost that would be.

[@Masenken]

@@northernsun6003 yeah, I was thinking 5th too. Those mage battles made for epic moments for player and DM alike. I'm not sure what players would be getting upset knowing that spell was always on the table and how it works by is very nature. That said, delegating it a higher spell slot A terror the player that the opponent is strong and B primes their expectations of what's to come

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

Sleep is good no matter the level because you essentially make an enemy make a wisdom save vs losing concentration. I think that is very powerful for a 1st level spell, herhaps too good. Psychic lance does the same thing without the chance of unconscious as a 4th level spell to just 1 person, but it has damage involved with it

[@kylesousa2051]

Surprised no mention on Giant Insect. The spiders have been taking out dragons in the new rules

[@micahpierce9197]

2 awesome "tweaks" as you put it, were for flame strike getting a damage buff (base & upcast), and circle of death getting a slight damage buff.

[@ThePope1831]

“It’s a joke Monty” 😂😂😂😂😂 the phrase all of us enneagram 8’s need to hear

[@VinceValentine]

What's an enneagram 8? Some kind of MBTI personality archetype that doesn't get jokes?

[@0Fyrebrand0]

@@VinceValentine I took a quick peek at it on Wikipedia, and the Enneagram of Personality seems to be one of those pseudoscientific models that seeks to shoehorn all of the 8 billion people on Earth into a convenient handful of "personality type" boxes. This method seems to directly reference the seven deadly sins of Christianity for its "vices" column, so that's definitely raising an eyebrow from me.

[@ThePope1831]

@@VinceValentine google is a wonderful tool

[@chrism6315]

Forecage needed a nerf, the spell basically meant you cant use a bbeg in tier 4 that cant teleport if the players could cast it, if thats the worst wizards got hit with then theyre still the best class in tier 4 by a mile

[@sambro6657]

It is in no way a broken combo the spiritual weapon change I frankly will probably just ignore it.

[@thomasquesada7248]

It is a broken combo because it’s a must have and easily the best combo If you really wanted spiritual weapon to be better on top of its already biffed scaling you can just double it’s poor movement and give it weapon masteries

[@sambro6657]

@@thomasquesada7248 Spirit guardians dealt more damage then spiritual weapon though so why was the weaker spell nerfed? Also if you think what they did with counterspell was a good change your drinking the kool aid. Also nothing is more op then the infinite simulacrum trick. Also we clearly run d and d very differently because I’ve had clerics do the combo a bunch at my table and I’ve never had a problem.

[@galensturupcomeau1242]

Valor Bard can still do damage on that turn 1 setup with "Battle Magic" bonus action attack when you use your action to cast a spell

[@asherandai1000]

Disadvantage on a counterspell con save isn’t a big deal when the monster only needs to roll a 2 with a bonuses to save. And can just legendary resistance anyway if it fails. The counterspell nerf is just too big. It’s practically useless now.

[@thomasquesada7248]

Counter spell is far from useless

[@asherandai1000]

@@thomasquesada7248 fantastic argument. Very detailed analysis that counters the glaring problems. You’re wrong.

[@thomasquesada7248]

@@asherandai1000 save or suck spells like hold monster can completely stop a boss and counterspell does the same thing while also being only a 3th level spell And don’t complain about legendary resistance since the new monster design they’ve shown with the green dragon shows they are going in the directions of multiple reactions and a 3rd level spell eating legendary resistance is a good thing since you can keep the 4th and higher spells for after Another thing is that the new green dragon does not have con save prof anymore and so is likely a good amount of monsters And that’s not even mentioning that counterspell now works on any spell slots level similarly and that not taking up the slots is a massive buff to players since delaying monsters just make it more likely for them to never use the spell and that it’s a reaction so you still cast whatever spell on your turn And finally just because you can’t stop a creature’s turn with no save and no counter doesn’t make it bad So you’re ignorant and wrong

[@asherandai1000]

@@thomasquesada7248 save or suck spells like hold monster very rarely work already, and always require spamming. Counterspell to be effective *has* to work at a specific moment. The big danger spells which you want to counterspell almost always come out at the beginning of the combat when there is literally zero chance of it working. The preview of the new Green Dragon reduces its con save sure. But it also now has 5 legendary resistance and can cast up to 5 spells per round. And they’re at will spells so there’s literally no limit. And if you do dare to counterspell the dragon on its turn… here, take some more party wide damage on top of wasting your time. So you can kill off your self and friends while achieving nothing. And that’s just one monster who has a decent con save even without proficiency. You know nothing about any of the other monsters. It doesn’t tell you anything about others, and claiming it does is ignorance. So you’re ignorant and wrong.

[@Vogue69]

I've noticed another change, that noone has mentioned yet (and I think it's crazy): Summon Undead Putrid Form: Rotting Claw (Putrid Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6 + 3 + the spell’s level Slashing damage. If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn. NO SAVING THROW! The Tasha's version gave the opponent a Save to withstand the paralyzation. not anymore. Same with the Ghost: Deathly Touch (Ghostly Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d8 + 3 + the spell’s level Necrotic damage, and the target has the Frightened condition until the end of its next turn. NO SAVE! maybe an oversight? I don't know

[@Reepicheep-1]

House rule: if you can run your ENTIRE turn in under 5 minutes, you can use 2014 summoning spells.

[@joeking3057]

My necromancer bard that uses the summons as a mariachi band to cast vicious mockery with advantage got nuked for no reason

[@lukebrennan5125]

One thing to mention about Counterspell is that it is much fairer when you consider a 1v1 situation because one resource is being used on each side e.g. your spell for my spell. When you consider a party vs one boss and you have multiple counter spell users, the boss can only use counterspell on one of you, but you can use it multiple times on them and they are sacrificing much more because you have more moves to make.

[@robbiesrevelations3096]

12:12 WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY not just say you can only summon 2 CR something creatures. If they don't have the sheets prepped, they can't use the spell. Why

[@queenannsrevenge100]

When you leave it open to “all monsters” there’s always loopholes. Better would be, if people still want critters, to have a dedicated short list.

[@robbiesrevelations3096]

@@queenannsrevenge100 hmm. Possibly. I like that idea

[@Bossk84]

@@queenannsrevenge100I’ve been playing a Shepherd Druid in a 4 year long campaign and this is what my DM and I did. I made a short list and they approved it. We also agreed up front that if we ever reached 9th level spell slots I was allowed 1 use of “I conjure 32 wolves” and then I wouldn’t do that anymore.

[@HappyHubris]

Because it was the most frustrating spell in the game for other people at tables. Crowded out other players in puzzles and problem-solving and slowed combat down to a crawl.

[@madness1931]

For the past couple of years I've been playing a Dreams Druid, and we homebrewed the Sleep spell to be exactly the new version. It's became so handy in encounters. Due to the characters backstory we did add a feat, where I could apply it onto NPCs who couldn't sleep too.

[@odinsbaer]

Sleep has been nerfed not buffed the 5ft radius destroys the usefulness of the update. It's still terrible

[@corvusnull5204]

Not to mention it now requiring concentration and giving the targets two chances to resist the effects.

[@JGPlunder]

Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon and Invoke Duplicity are the cornerstone of my Trickery Domain Cleric. It's how to get good extended range while concentrating on two things (my table counts duplicity as a separate concentration)

[@-hunt-6225]

Forcecage is a 7th spell. It’s supposed to feel powerful! I’m using the older version at my table lol.

[@gloryrod86]

It's still powerful. No save combat inescapable shutdown is already crazy

[@jiiaga5017]

I'm glad you mentioned the 3rd edition counterspell rules. Also in 3rd edition, I think you could substitute dispel magic (which made dispel magic more useful) to counterspell an opponent's spell but that required an additional check?