Five times Angela Rayner and Penny Mordaunt clashed during the BBC election debate

Penny Mordaunt and Angela Rayner clashed throughout tonight's BBC election debate, disagreeing on a variety of issues.
Standing next to each other at the debate, the two senior party politicians disagreed on energy, defense and tax policies.
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[@jamescorneliustaylor6997]

The tories are embarrassed about the tax lie. Rather than admit it's a lie or admit it's wrong, they think if they repeat it enough, someone will be daft enough to believe it. Sadly for them, it just completely undermines credibility.

[@terryloftus8626]

Fortune teller are you?

[@anonnemo2504]

Yes, Labour have never raised taxes on working people, have they? Anyway, these two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@damienakatubbyable]

To keep repeating the lie worked against Corbyn, you never know...

[@markflower3934]

Yeah but anyone who is over about 28 years old know that Labour party are going to raise taxes. Thats just what they do.

[@jamescorneliustaylor6997]

@markflower3934 the Conservatives have raised taxes. Labour are better - Blair saw the longest period of sustained economic growth for 200years and also reduced borrowing, then Brown didn't actually cause the crash- it was tory bankers like Sunak and Javid gambling with our money and losing it. Pfi under Labour (John Major's initiative) bought new schools and hospitals and costs a small percentage of the annual tax income. Unlike the Conservatives, Labour will make sure that tax is paid by people who can afford to pay it. No more non dom, no more overseas bank accounts, these will be recognised as the tax evasion they are.

[@terryloftus8626]

Mordaunt was rude,ignorant,and entitled,and the host did nothing to stop her.

[@donalking5460]

Exactly. These mods, need to stop these "Tory Talk overs".... they do this to stiffle the truth...

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@donalking5460 True, but also Rayner is equally as bad.

[@RayTeggie-er7pb]

W E F

[@anonnemo2504]

As was Rayner and ignorant, even more so. These two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@Louis-sn6pj]

@@jonathanhodgson2142 explain how

[@jackkruese4258]

It doesn’t matter if Mordant or the Tories claim Labour are crap most people KNOW the Tory’s are crap.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

You are half right, they are BOTH crap.

[@MVUK358]

Labour are also crap and compulsive liars British people unfortunately keep voting for corruption, lies, high taxes, mass immigration, more of the same... Clearly they don't care. Tories and Labour are two faces of the same coin...

[@peterflynn3657]

Why is the moderator so ineffectual? Another terrible job , failing to stop interruptions time and time again.

[@snotwurfit]

Agreed. She was awful

[@anonnemo2504]

The BBC won't see it that way. They will be quite happy at how her "moderation" (as well as their frequent showing of an audience member rolling his eyes and shaking his head when Mr. Farage was speaking) served their agenda. Anyway, these two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@rene-pedersen-music]

Let the Tories keep interrupting and embarrassing themselves. It doesn't do anything good for them and they are digging their own grave.

[@divinity176]

Watching this reminds me of the first Trump/Biden debate. So boarish and rude and undignified. Surely the Tories don't think this is a good look for them?

[@snowyowel7961]

It certainly isn't a good look for the liar party.

[@anonnemo2504]

Neither should Labour. These two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@Louis-sn6pj]

@@anonnemo2504wow you are really pathetic just spreading your dumb opinions under every comment 😂 it clearly shows you bias

[@gordonferguson4370]

That penny DOESNT shut up 14 YRS OF BS

[@glennliddell6594]

Penny Mordaunt won’t even keep her seat. We need these Tories gone!

[@adambinnie1332]

And Muslims In?

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

Correct........but we also need Labour gone as well. Both crap.

[@TonyWeaving]

Penny Mordaunt is my MP and you are right she will lose her seat and hopefully we will get Labour into Portsmouth North.

[@anonnemo2504]

Just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@TonyWeaving You are correct, she will lose her seat and so should all Tories. The trouble is you will get Labour as a replacement. No improvement.

[@davidwhite1982]

Mordaunt went full Trump style on this one. Just repeat lies and talk all over your opponent's responses. Disrespectful attitude.

[@adambinnie1332]

A vote for fish wife Rayner?

[@cog2338]

@@adambinnie1332 Rather vote Rayner than a disrespectful out of touch cow lol 🤣

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

Yes she was but be honest.....so was Raynor. Both do not deserve to be in power.

[@davidwhite1982]

@@adambinnie1332 no bud. That's not how I fly. I just think repeatedly shouting an already discredited piece of propaganda and trying to drown out a person's reply is both rude and disrespectful - to the voters too.

[@anonnemo2504]

Rayner did the same. These two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@terencegumbs2478]

Both main parties are not fit to govern.

[@HahaDamn]

Sovereignty of the people over parliament?

[@andreaanderson1664]

Penny is still telling the lie she is just as bad as sunak

[@vicesquadpunk]

Angela Rayner is obviously not versed in dealing face to face with an arrogant, supercilious, nasty woman who shouts over her. I admire her sensitivity.

[@anonnemo2504]

The description could be applied to either of them. These two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@anonnemo2504]

@@jimn7788 I am not a "blue voter". The Tories can go to hell so far as I am concerned. Had you understood properly what I said earlier, you may have gathered that. I stand by my description of Rayner. This gaffe is far from being the only evidence of her profound lack of intelligence.

[@anonnemo2504]

@@jimn7788 (2nd attempt to reply and not have it hidden from me so, with some changes and precautions, here goes...) It is not only last night's gaffe by Ra yner that points to her profound lack of intelligence. I am not a "blue voter", by the way, and if you had fully understood my earlier comment, you may have realised that. It is "Mordaunt", by the way.

[@wanabepetegreen1132]

She's doing exactly what Sunak did the other night,try to brainwash the public by ramming the fantasy 2k tax issue, but even when it's been made public by the financial management,they still insist it's going to happen ....just trying to brainwash 😏

[@anonnemo2504]

@@jimn7788 It seems I am not allowed to reply in any detail but I stand by my description and last night's gaffe is not the only evidence.

[@SolomonSolomon-wn7kf]

SHAME TO PENNY ...it is time for conservative party to go....

[@SomedaySomeway7000]

Penny Mordaunt is a bully.

[@snowyowel7961]

She is brilliant. Not a bully at all you are obviously a labour lemming.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

The Tories are crap, but we need to get Labour out as well. Neither are a good option.

[@anindyamajumdar4088]

MoneyPenny , justb like her boss Double O,0 Rishi Sunak , is FINISHED and she knows it!!

[@keithwilliams744]

@@jonathanhodgson2142 I hope you don’t mean super strength Tory party called Reform UK? The party formerly known as the BNP, UKIP and the Brexit Party? I would rather the Dolphin or Count Binface as they got more votes last time out than Farage.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@keithwilliams744 Formally known as The Brexit Party. Not UKIP and certainly not the BNP. Only on your mind not reality.

[@Steve-kj5zt]

14 years of shit by Tories.

[@ThePierre58]

Alternative is a left-wing, China, Russia-led cabal.

[@jake751]

Then another 5 years of the same with starmers Labour.

[@carolabrams3329]

@@jake751 I keep hearing this comment But how the fk does anyone know ,

[@billyb224]

Do you think the Islamic Labour will be any better? Think again. VOTE REFORM the only sensible British Party.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@carolabrams3329 History of Labour. Don't get me wrong, the Tories have been crap as well.

[@paulbrickland9625]

Doesn't she know that claim has been discredited mordant must be really thick

[@anonnemo2504]

In reality, none of the general public know the truth of the claim. We do know, however, that nearly all politicians tell lies. Anyway, these two were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@AB91996]

The lady from tories is disrespectful and lies a lot talking over the another people.

[@TheBiggerLebowski-t1m]

Richi's PR advisors ... We've got a great idea, you leave the D-day function early and Penny can do the TV stuff.

[@anindyamajumdar4088]

Yep ! The school kids have taken over the Tory asylum.😂😂

[@jbmzala]

Moderator failed us on this session

[@donalking5460]

Firstly. Will these moderator's do their bloody jobs , Nd stop this farce.

[@robertwatts7812]

Doesn't really matter what these ttwo say no one's listening

[@bizzy8427]

Like two little chihuahua dogs barking over eachother 😂😂😂😂

[@ShaunWortley]

Mordaunt is like that person who's been obnoxious to you over the years, constantly repeating how close she thinks you've been when you fail to avoid her falling drunk from the pub

[@user-s1o3nr532]

I was thinking Mordaunt might have been one of the less obnoxious Tories, but she's horrible.

[@Louis-sn6pj]

Literally same. She is clearly so desperate to become prime minister. She has tried for years to claim prime minister status but has been knocked out by boris liz and rishi so naturally she is fed up and is willing to do whatever she can to pursue her goals. She doesn’t even have a family and that is not just by choice 😅 pretty sure her own husband left her. She is pathetic

[@donalking5460]

Mordurant just shows, how this Tory party are finished, and as yoda wud say" not soon enough "

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

The Tories are crap, but we need to get Labour out as well. Neither are a good option.

[@cadge]

The Tories are as mad as a box of frogs!

[@exbritishforcespatriotscha7723]

What the hell is Raynor wearing.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

Who in their right mind could vote for Rayner.

[@EricaFiore]

ME

[@phoneme52xxx6]

Who in their right mind would vote for Mordant?

[@adambinnie1332]

@@EricaFiore She is a like a fish wife that hates her own country.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@EricaFiore aaaw bless.

[@Rookwood262]

and me. Anything but Tories or the N (sorry the Reform Party).

[@danielczyzewski7823]

keep pointing, raising voice, interrupting others- bad manners in front of TV

[@robwhitton7399]

Penny needs to up her medication, she’s clearly in a bad place! The others???? Priceless

[@bentleycharles779]

and we were told by wimmin that wimmin in politics would make discourse more civilised 😳

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

Yep, and we get Rayner. Jesus what a fish wife.

[@brainorwell3450]

These clowns Labour and Tories are disconnected from their citizens period. Reform needs to save Britain.

[@terryloftus8626]

😂😂😂😂

[@adambinnie1332]

@@terryloftus8626 Communist! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

only choice unfortunately. It has to be Reform.

[@anonnemo2504]

I agree and, perhaps, in a few years time, they will. Rayner and Mordaunt were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@user-fu9dd5vc6x Giggling but cannot provide any content. What a waste of space you are.

[@billyouka448]

So the tories strategy is to be as annoying as possible?

[@cog2338]

Penny Mordaunt was so rude. Honestly very obnoxious. Every time Angela Rayner was asked a direct question she was interrupted. Penny's conduct was a joke to say the least. Not saying Labour will do better but honestly get theses Tory's out. So much disregard it's unbelievable specially from the PM for leaving D day remembrance early.

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

The Tories are crap, but we need to get Labour out as well. Neither are a good option.

[@RaymondWhitehouse-d5o]

Penny is the future. Labour only know how to borrow and spend.

[@paullandman8770]

Reform 🎉🎉🎉

[@phoneme52xxx6]

Labour

[@angieseo5713]

Frog

[@MartinSmith-qt3cc]

Anyone prepared to lie about their dubious naval record should be nowhere near parliament but of course she’s a ‘tall s’tory’

[@khoorirune4573]

What, belly button?

[@karigirl3569]

If they’re not going to raise taxes on working people then who will be paying them?

[@dazjackson1972]

Who at the Beeb thought it was a good idea to place these 2 side by side?

[@tonyrawlinson2385]

The loaded finger the big mouth .. sick of it an we pay for this .. a priminister who does a runner to do a photo shoot wow

[@catherinemartin6258]

Penny has lost the plot she just came out with rants and untruths. get the the Tory’s out

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

Yes, but we need to get Labour out as well. Neither are a good option.

[@Louis-sn6pj]

@@jonathanhodgson2142labour are better and one of them will win so I choose labour 😂

[@jonathanhodgson2142]

@@Louis-sn6pj It's not a case of better, it's case of which one is worse than the other. Tbh they are both utter crap.

[@Louis-sn6pj]

@@jonathanhodgson2142 that’s literally the same thing🤣 however most people try not to be so negative and say it that way. Anyway I don’t believe labour is trash. Explain why you think they are so bad I’m open to listening

[@Louis-sn6pj]

@@jonathanhodgson2142 still waiting buddy seems you don’t have the answers

[@garywilson6047]

Vote reform

[@andydudley1775]

what vote reformed spammed ukipping it old hat for pro racists .

[@MariaLeonard-i4o]

VOTE REFORM VOTE REFORM

[@TonyWeaving]

You must be joking buddy. Labour is the only option.

[@TheTeejay73]

@@TonyWeaving Yeah, and a terrible option at that.

[@davidcoates5732]

@@TonyWeaving 🤣

[@robwhitton7399]

We had everything except hair pulling! Shameful state of affairs! Not a good advert for calm and clear debate, desperate times indeed!

[@jakoflynn2560]

Decimation literally 1/10th destruction but now abused to mean destroyed entirely

[@sylviamorley6675]

Penny Mordant is totally obnoxious. She needs to learn some rules of communication instead of shouting over Angela Raynor like an entitled bully

[@gmansid3576]

The BBC did their best, but couldn’t manage to save the Tories or ‘navy cosplay’ Mordaunt’s seat.

[@johnmckenna-dl9td]

I had the unfortunate experience of living in Camden under the reign of the late Frank Dobson. And what a grim, miserable experience that turned out to be. I used to support Labour, but it's so far removed from the values it stood for. The Conservatives have fared no better in recent times, but believe a leadership under Penny Mordaunt would be life changing for this country. I wouldn't trust anything Angela Rayner comes out with.

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

Penny Mordaunt wants to destroy this country with charter cities and freeports. She is just a Trump

[@markflower3934]

Voteing for Labour to replace the Tories is like changeing your tie because you have shit your pants.

[@nicksmith4361]

Labour are saying they are not going to raise taxes for working people but they are not saying that they are not going to raise taxes for pensioners. All pensions will be hit hard.

[@robertford532]

Penny Mordaunt should be in jail, let alone government

[@jen-wd5xl]

Well done to Angela for not being rude and bad mannered like Penny mordaunt was to her.All Penny has done is talk over Angela. The tories are a lying sleazy vile party.

[@jaybee4288]

They are both traitors to our country and both should be punished.

[@angieseo5713]

You should be punished

[@stevenbraines9073]

All the tories can do is repeat a debunked figure

[@Jamal-Ahmed786]

OMG that behaviour was so desperate by the tories

[@Lee-w5z8j]

Need Tories out - and Labour are a disgrace! UK need change and neither of the above parties can offer it.

[@alvinswift8659]

Both are crap

[@lindawalters7534]

Don’t believe a word out of Rayner mouth

[@phoneme52xxx6]

Don’t believe a word out of Mordant’s mouth.

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

Oh look a brainwashed Tory

[@Louis-sn6pj]

It’s funny you say that when penny was literally fought lying in this interview. Even the moderator called her out on that 2k thing being a lie because everyone knows that was just a lie to try and discredit the Labour Party 😂. If your now biased then you should be able to acknowledge that

[@iananderson374]

There was only one person in that debate that is truthful and that was farage .

[@derekwhyle1884]

A fool hears what he wants to hear

[@phoneme52xxx6]

Ha ha ha.

[@ghulmes8896]

Oh God, i don't want any of these parties. Angela Raynor should have left the party when Corbyn left. The absolute sh!t show from the Conservatives. It's so bad i actually think Reform would be the better choice and none of them bear thinking about

[@jake751]

Reform 😂😂😂 no thanks I'll vote green.

[@Eddie-je8qp]

To think the Labour party left the UK in a terrible state much worse than the conservatives last time around and yet they are now back in power, something is quite wrong with this country. i guess you get what you vote for.

[@lyndacrosfill6340]

Clash then like the two faced people they are smile laugh and shake hands ithe state if this country us a joke to these parties as long as they secure ther jobs and pensions that we pay.

[@gordonferguson4370]

Who can shout loudest

[@archiesmum8601]

The Tories should have iet Penny Mordaunt instead of Liz Truss become PM.. she's more of a "Tory" than the rest of the party together

[@toxicsausage302]

Remember Liebour wanted more lock downs and their circuit breakers lock downs, VOTE REFORM ❤!

[@phoneme52xxx6]

You need to get out more.

[@angieseo5713]

No, they wanted an earlier second lockdown, which was too late. If it had happened a few weeks earlier, more lives would have been saved, and the lockdown itself would have been shorted. Johnson's decision making was impulsive and incompetent. Oh wait, you're Reform, sorry I'll stick to emotions (mainly fear) rather than facts... Yes you're right.. Nigel will save you.

[@toxicsausage302]

Vote Reform ❤❤❤

[@angieseo5713]

Yes, you racists vote Reform, so we can get the Tories out and Labour back in.

[@BANKO007]

little less talking over each other would help.

[@mattyhew5121]

i honestly feel bad for mordaunt cause she has to try and defend a government and prime minister who dont want to be reelected, no matter what she says, doesnt change that the tories are worse

[@kurman4749]

Thankfully, Mordaunt will NEVER be prime minister.

[@stufen11]

They put them within striking range, just so they can get these two cats hissing at each other and rolling in the dirt.

[@LivegoodWilliam]

they are desperate

[@CliveSwabs]

BOTH WEF EMBEDDED!!!

[@RolandoRatas]

I want them to have a pillow fight.

[@philipclemoes9458]

Hate to agree with Angela but what's the good of a deterrent we can never use, when we are being invaded daily?

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

We aren’t being invaded

[@angieseo5713]

We can use it. They said they'd use it.

[@darrenl1922]

Penny 😂😂😂😂 just look at how desperate the Tories are

[@keithwilliams744]

What debate? I only heard Rayner respectfully being quite when Mordant spoke quantifiable nonsense and wouldn’t shut up and let Rayner speak by spouting lies that have been fact checked long ago. She came across as s drowning rat clutching at straws.

[@d.d.4703]

Abstract failure. Didn't she mean abject failure! And she will be the King's second minister. Beggars belief that someone who cannot even express herself properly will have such a high position in government.

[@archiesmum8601]

Can't wait to hear Labour's education plan's.... Probably along the line's of it doesn't really matter if it's the correct wording or spelling, as long as it's written neatly & can be easily read, it doesn't have to be 100% correct They'll be giving mark's just for TRYING😮😮

[@celticsaxon7609]

Nobody cares about them, this is now the Farage show.

[@angieseo5713]

Did you actually watch it? The audience hated Farage lol

[@Boppa1260]

​@@angieseo5713wake up the audience were bbc plants.😂

[@user-ch7ri7sm7h]

The 2 women may have clashed but yet they were laughing and giggling like 2 schoolgirls after the debate !

[@ledeyabaklykova]

These two should get a room! 😋

[@sabatofolmi4010]

Non of the parties are we need a party who will Rejoin the EU AS A TOP PRIORITY

[@Da1Dez]

Penny is no doubt preparing herself to be the next leader for the conservative party.. if there's any left to lead come July.

[@philm3509]

We all watched Game of thrones and the red witch, need I say more! That woman will usurp Starmer one day soon without remorse to become the top ''dog''. This I predict right now and I bet this site will never mention it ever again because it is so far left it fell off a Disney films kids shelf!

[@RolandoRatas]

LOL

[@johnreid9959]

Rayner came across as a goofy bully and liar vey undiginifird and pathetic

[@stevenemery]

Raynor is the Tories secret weapon

[@jonathankennedy1715]

No more house building no more houses building please no more houses.

[@Lorraine-p4r]

Only Working people, Angela Rayner said will not have taxes raised! That means pensioners will have taxes raised! Like the Labour London Mayor and My Labour Council, have doubled My Council tax!

[@coppershark1973]

Hi Rishi! Thing is none of you rich arse****s actually pay any tax!

[@derekwhyle1884]

I’ll just bet you voted for Brexit!

[@patriciabrooks6498]

These two are as awful as eachother

[@anonnemo2504]

I agree. They were just like a pair of fish wives. A plague on both their houses. "14 years of ABSTRACT failure", said Ms. Rayner. This woman is as thick as mince. It is truly frightening that soon she is likely to be just a heartbeat away from becoming Prime Minister.

[@angieseo5713]

No they're not

[@enfredlindstrom6763]

vote for reform for change all....

[@TheTeejay73]

I look at British politics like this - A field to my left is occupied by a whole gang of deadly snakes, so that's an option I'm not going to take, to my right is a lake & there's a sign there that says ' this lake is filled with Crocodiles, you may be in danger'. I know the snakes will def get me, that's the Tories. I might have a chance in the lake, as the sign says I may be in danger, though chances are high that I will. That's the Labour party - they may be alright, though chances are they won't. The UK is a shit show, and it starts at the top and ends up at the bottom with empty pockets. Maybe I'll just take a protest vote this time around, as Labour will win anyway.

[@davidJohnson-ff8ou]

I’m voting the only party worth my vote. REFORM. the only alternative

[@angieseo5713]

To what, sanity?

[@Stephanie-wf6xr]

Penny the liar, we don't know why liars lie, but they lie. Liars will not be allowed to change history. We will say no, we don't believe you. 😂😂

[@captainjamesjamesy1053]

Penny is trying so hard 😢

[@martincheeseman5809]

Come on Angela keep going and win the the next general election!

[@kevinmallinson4170]

Penny oh poor penny, I always thought she'd got a bit about her, but she's just another screaming queen, wouldn't want her in charge of the nuclear button when she's having a bad hair day

[@jacquelinepaul9731]

Shameless versus Downtown Abbey 😅

[@WilliamHall-l8v]

If your gunna smash the smuggling gang then start in the home office where majority is non British born courses problem for mps who try to challenge the high levels of migration as its a secret home office business criminals should be in prison not on tv

[@julianparrett9005]

BBC and Labour same thing

[@angieseo5713]

BBC has allowed Britain to have influence and soft power all over the world. People like you want Little England. Insignificant on the world stage, inward looking, weak, vulnerable and broken.

[@harikalanr]

Script on how to debate in the UK: Tories: *bring up the 2k tax rises over and over again* Labour: *bring up 14 years of Tory govt failure again and again* *interrupt each other with the above*

[@themasteryourdaddy.6307]

There goes Mordant`s chances in becoming the next Tory Leader.....

[@LesleyWright-g5v]

Mordaunt is so desperate, just horrible

[@shazoids]

Tories need to go, we cannot as a country have such an appalling representation, if any other country saw that we would we would be an even bigger laughing stock than we already are.